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[Testarossa]

Hi, random person passing by and posting in a thread for a game they totally haven't signed up for.

[Testarossa]

For real, can't catch up 18 pages during my break, will do so later after work. Sorry.

Someone wants to spoil me and tell what's going on rn while I am here though?

[Testarossa]

What has she done?

[Testarossa]

Basically
kitty was scummy
then elsa harddefended kitty for no reason
and someone pointed out this is a classic scum multiball strategy.

That would assume that Kitty would be scum or at least scummy enough to "bait" Elsascum. I figure I have to read that for myself then.

Going by the last vc of the mod it's pretty onesided though. Why do you want me to put my vote on Elsa to pressure/lim/whatever her while you are voting Kitty simultaneously?

[Testarossa]

Caught up.

Straight going to the Kitty/Elsa thing first. Tbh I didn't thought Kitty was looking bad there. Maybe sounding awkward with the early wagon thing, however I think his stance sounded believable from the point of view he explained, so that he genuinely thought it might have been a bad thing. I rather don't understand what he liked about hem's response to his vote though, since it was basically just omgus. Null, maybe more leaning town.

As for Elsa I really dislike that Titus vote, classic alibi vote imo. I don't necessarily agree with nom's 223. Last game I played with her she wasn't cheery either and more "stiff" and kind of rolled over when our votes were piling up on her and it ended up as a miselim, so I am not sure that is a good (stand alone) reason for a vote. Then again I only have one game played with Elsa yet. What I have seen from her ever since she is the frontrunner wagon is nothing new to me, although she lacks some "mockery" imo and comes across a bit submissive - meaning more survivalistic. Somewhere between null and scumlean.

[Testarossa]

I got a slight townlean on Dunn for 238, because that's exactly the same observation regarding Nero/T3 I had at that point.

ActionDan could be town too, despite remembering me on a bad 90s TV ad with his name. I liked his take on Elsa's Titus vote and how he went into detail, like not in a damning way, just comprehensible.

I can see in nom what hem is seeing, more or less. It feels kind of like tagging along and not too much of a fan of the T3 and Elsa votes. Mild scumlean. One noticeable thing was the strong reaction regarding cyrus at one point, when he started to townread cyrus. What was it, that was triggering you in this regard? @nom The sarcastic tone?

[Testarossa]

Strongest scumlean is T3 though.

Went through his ISO after finishing reading. Starting with 133 he starts talking about just ignoring cyrus and literally almost every post from then is about cyrus, besides a Titus townread, one post about Gamma and that little dialogue with me. Then he jumps on the Elsa wagon for the scum pocket reason (where I can't help but think that someone on the wagon is coasting on that argument, independent on Elsa's alignment), but never really interacted with Elsa in order to sort her like hem as example.

The focus on cyrus is odd and I can think of a few reasons. However I feel that Elsa vote was kind of lazy in context of his treatment of her slot.

VOTE: T3

I want to hear more from you. Are you cool with everyone else on the wagon? Still scum on Kitty?

[Testarossa]

You're not looking at my ISO in context. Most of the discussion was centered around cyrus, so I decided to metaread cyrus.

I know. My point is I feel like you came already in 432 to the conclusion that he is town and you metadived him nonetheless. Just not certain enough about him being town or did you felt the need to defend him? Like I said, I can think of many reasons here, positive as negative. I just find it curious that you spend a lot of effort on this townread, yet the scumhunting part falls really flat.

[Testarossa]

I don't know, I feel I am missing out on much more while reading some interactions considering how heavily some rely on experiences of older games. It makes it a bit hard to follow with just taking it at face value.

[Testarossa]

@T3:
Do you usually prefer the approach of "townhunting" (looking rather for townreads) in the early game?

[Testarossa]

Do you think T3 is genuine in his defense of cyrus given multiball?

I think there is a good chance it's genuine. Like him saying to just ignore cyrus gives me this "already been there, doesn't help, don't do it" - vibe in order to help people dealing with that slot given cyrus nature. Knowing more of their common history would probably give me more context there. But I think he truly believes cyrus is town, his metadive looked like it was depending on an on-going game and he seemed eager to share his observation.

It's just the how. cyrus felt off to him, without knowing what and then he suddenly switched to town on him.

[Testarossa]

Tbh people that get run up on D1 and claim a pr are usually the kind of claims I would just lim through. I don't see the purpose of a plain Neighborizer.

[Testarossa]

@T3:
Do you usually prefer the approach of "townhunting" (looking rather for townreads) in the early game?

Usually, yes. There are no associatives.

Thank you. I will fact check tomorrow with skimming some of your games, but that eases my major problem with you a lot.

[Testarossa]

T3 isn't being run up.

I wasn't talking about T3.

[Testarossa]

I figure the causality is that it is unlikely for him that there is another role of the same type?

[Testarossa]

The crumb is whack, but it would be a weird counterclaim if it's a lie. It can be proven. It doesn't look that smart to me either to come out of his cover with a claim when Elsa was most likely going to die anyway.

[Testarossa]

So Lucifer has transformed back into an angel and Elsa literally scumclaimed. Ok, I take that. lol

I guess that should clear the early Elsa wagon from being Elsa's teammate(s) considering it's permanence. That's finally something to work with.

[Testarossa]

Only thing that worries me is the fact that there was hardly any backfighting against the Elsa wagon. Besides, I think, Iec there wasn't anyone who was actively against an Elsa lim. D1 scum lim + lack of backfighting would usually suggest a bus, but that doesn't make any sense in multiball, especially because the gamestate stagnated around the wagon pretty fast. Eh, supports maybe the thesis that at least one scum team got only two?

[Testarossa]

Well sure but the other team is sitting on him so eh

Yeah, I am cracking my head about that too. Although I am probably ruling hem already out there for sure going by certain Elsa/hem-interactions. There is most likely one/at least one. I am just not sure yet which team is easier to hunt.

[Testarossa]

Although I am probably ruling hem already out there for sure going by certain Elsa/hem-interactions.

No wait, forget this. I mixed it up with something obvious, that hem is just not the same team as Elsa (yeah, no shit sherlock). God, I hate the brainwork in multiball.

[Testarossa]

I am just not sure yet which team is easier to hunt.

I doubt Elsa was bussed hard

For me pretty much anyone who spoke out against the weak claim or the neighborizor claim is unlikely to be elsa's partner

I think the claim situation is indeed the best to look for. I feel like that was the last resort and got unexpected busted by T3.

[Testarossa]

Dunn solving could just be explained as a bussing teammate trying to cement the narrative that scum never bussed. Elsa's wagon was not going to die, even with the fake switch up in the end. Notably, no one tried to take Elsa on his word for it other than cyrus62. If Elsa was indeed never bussed, I would have expected more resistance when that claim happened. Instead, we just accepted that scum never bussed and that they're outside the wagon. Why is that? It makes better sense that Werewolves were bussing at that point.

I want to weigh on on that bussing argument regarding the Elsa wagon, since it hasn't been addressed yet. I think an important indication that Elsa wasn't bussed is the very fact that both kills were on Elsa wagon. Dan might not count, because he was just obvtown to most, but NDMath was among the last votes on Elsa, the place where you would usually suspect bus votes. As scum you don't saw off the branch on which you are sitting on, especially in the context of multiball where it is very likely that Elsa was also pushed by the other scum team, so that the wolf team would need to move town against this very pool of Elsa voters at one point anyway.

[Testarossa]

I understand that strategically it would be more wise to hunt for the wolf team as the threat of two nks might fall away when there is only one wolf left and we lim them today in best case.

I think to an extent I can go along with Dunn's poe (need to check a few things with two slots tomorrow).

I am not fully convinced on Gamma yet though. I agree with nom about the Gunsmith claim, which is imo a good point aganst Gamma. However I don't feel the argument he was trying to counterwagon against Elsa. Maybe an issue of definition, but like it didn't really feel he was actively trying to recruit people for a A50 wagon? At most there was a short interaction with Iecerint where he doubled down on a comment from Iecerint. Otherwise it felt like a pretty individual thing by Gamma.

[Testarossa]

Personally I feel more like trying it here. VOTE: Iecerint

Under the assumption that there would have been a two wolves team and the premise of being in a tough spot when one already goes down on D1 I think there should have been an effort to save Elsa. Although even in case of three wolves this still would be the case imo.

On review I didn't really like his meta argument of calling Elsa town because of that. Like he argued with meta, but rather in a shallow manner ("people know Elsa, Elsa is behaving like in last game where he was town") without really giving any examples why this would mean why Elsa was town here too and why it was different from Elsa's scum meta.

Finally I have trouble following his progression on Gamma from town to scum. To be fair I am here just not sure if his change of mind feels constructed or I just don't understand it. He said Gamma's AtE in his "if he dies, it's A50" post is out of proportion, however I don't feel it's necessarily out of line of Gamma's personality considering how he generally seems to react to particular things of people he is familiar with.

@Iecrint:
Can you clarify on both points? I mean what made you in particular believe Elsa's town meta applied to this game and wasn't less likely to be scum and why Gamma EoD1 behaviour is overshadowing your initial townread on Gamma making you more likely lean scum on him.

[Testarossa]

As for the other scum team I think the best shot would be on the Elsa wagon.

T3 is town imo, I haven't seen a plausible explanation why he would counterclaim as scum. Also 2-shot Neighborizer seems to have a thematical syngery with 2-shot Cop (well, in a spiritual manner, one shot for each scum team).

I feel better about nom mostly because of their initial reaction to the Elsa-T3 claim situation as they came instantly to the same conclusions I drew.

Still town on Dunn and don't really think he is tmi'ing here.

Need to specifically iso hem, A50 and cyrus tomorrow, too tired rn. With hem I have mostly a positive feeling the way he approaches other slots, although it might be tricky given the nature of multiball.

A50 was for a certain amount of time on the wagon before he backed off, but I thought there were a few interactions with Elsa that would at least rule them out as fellow wolves (by Elsa).

No idea with cyrus, so many people seem to have strong opinions here that aren't really comprehensible to me. I can see some takes being being "too clumsy" for having a scummy motive, just not having a firm grip on his character yet and after scumnpom I prefer to be wary about these player types. Will probably just poe here unless I get a strong ping here.

Kitty is the only one there imo who looks initially scummy by his treatment of Elsa on D1. Dislike his fos on Gamma today too.

[Testarossa]

Elsa Jay (9): Dunnstral,

nomnomnom

, humaneatingmonkey, KittyTacky,

NDMath

,

T3

, cyrus62,

Elsa Jay

,

ActionDan

Gamma Emerald (8): Iecerint, cyrus62, Andresvmb, Dunnstral,

nomnomnom

,

T3

, Titus,

Gamma Emerald

Since both days were pretty one-sided there isn't unfortunately much wagon analysis to do. Looking at both major wagons though I think it's noteworthy that Dunn and cyrus were the only ones (alive) that were on both wagons. Now one of them is most likely out of the pool for obvious reasons. Independent of that I still get no particular scummy vibes from Dunn.

By vote placement and the fact that Elsa threw the towel after his vote cyrus couuuld possibly be a wolf bus, I still don't believe it because of the N1 kills though. Maybe other scum, however he is after those who I suspect to be other scum, so I am less interested in him unless he has a busser reputation.

[Testarossa]

For now I am off Iecerint. His response to my little push was actually decent, especially regarding Elsa, and made me understand more of his mindset, so I am cool here.

We

need

more from Andres today. His whole contribution to this game comes down to a naked Gamma vote, which is, considering the result, not so cool. Hardly readable.

[Testarossa]

I am carefully leaning town on hem and I agree with him that going by the Elsa wagon Kitty is the scummiest player there. My general take is that some scum like it to let the heat cool down after they have been on a lim and looked scummy and he kind of fits that criteria how he fosed Gamma, when a strong wagon was already building up there. Imo a good shot.

As for the Gamma wagon, Andres aside, I dislike Titus vote the most. By placement as well as the situation it was creating a momentum for a speedlim, that I can see coming from scum. For me that was sudden, because I kind of sympathized with her being meh on both D2 wagons and then suddenly she put the gun at Gamma's head. Care to explain where you changed your mind about the Gamma wagon? Maybe it was by 1249, but I don't get what exactly you are meaning there.

[Testarossa]

What is giving me the final push on Titus is her D3 opening though. Her agreeing with Arc please to not speedlim today. I find that difficult to buy. She made the fast Gamma lim possible by literally voting Gamma up to E-1 when at least someone (Kitty) was already circling above Gamma (that Gamma would self-hammer was nothing to expect though). I think she knew very well what she was doing there. Therefore for now VOTE: Titus

[Testarossa]

Situations changed. I felt mechanically that Gamma had to be scum. I also didn't expect town!Gamma to blindly self hammer rather than give reads. The way Gamma played that was all wrong. My vote was incorrect but I didn't encourage Gamma's self hammer.

Here, we need to take things slower. I wanted to specifically look at you today and you immediately pop out with a vote on me.

Yeah. That's how I roll when I think I have found something fishy.

I agree that Gamma wasn't playing this out optimally. Why did you think it was scum playing wrong and not town playing wrong?

It doesn't really stop there though, as you had no problem joining the Gamma wagon, who was also supported by cyrus who you were scumreading for two days (and going by your first D3 posts probably still do to an extent?). Like imo the Gamma wagon was generally fishy with other players from the wolf poe on it or generally Andres alone with his naked vote. So even with two scum teams, it didn't really feel like you were critical on what you were actually supporting there.

I can tell by your focus on mechanics on D2 that you were bothered by this. Although going by this displayed mindset I have now to ask why you had no problem with immediately believing A50's claim and following him out of the gate by the context of two flipped investigatives + Masons?

[Testarossa]

In Fact, Testarossa you have placed only two vanity votes the entire game. What have you been doing to find scum?

I was pursuing my scumreads and tried to interact with them.

And yes, I put my "vanity" vote down on D2 because I disliked the Dunn wagon (who I was townreading) and the Gamma wagon too, as he was supported by Iecerint, Andres, cyrus and indirectly Kitty, all people I was scumreading or at least not trusting for different reasons. The fact that I wasn't fully convinced on Gamma aside.

I really, really dislike how you are trying paint my votes as negative by calling it vanity votes, especially my D2 vote. If you have paid attention, you should have figured that going by my online times/activity in this game I simply was only around once on D2 and the day was over the next time I came back.

[Testarossa]

The Traffic Analyst claim seems to be true at least by what I can tell. Curiously I am not really townreading anyone in this hood.

@Nero/Kitty:
Can you share Andres reads with us? Have to take what we can get.

It seems no one in this hood seems to feel affected in any way by the Neighbourizer claims/flips. (this is just by memory though, will check isos later)

On first thought I know that Kitty have been leaning town on Nero for a longer time this game. That would actually add up with scum interest in that hood, keeping it from resolving as long as possible. Can't really remember any stances by Nero.

[Testarossa]

@Nero:
What has been your read on Kitty overall in this game? Especially going by the fact that Kitty seems more widely scumread. Why weren't you trying to use the momentum in game thread to feel Kitty out or were you figuring each other out in the hood?

@Kitty:
Do you believe there is scum in your hood? Generally, where do you have your head at rn?

[Testarossa]

I think the role might thematically fit in, less for being a protective though.

I am inclined to agree with the theory of the hood containing two scum, just because the hood doesn't felt that townie yet, Andres aside who just had been missing out so far. If the hood contains two scum I am inclined to believe that this makes A50 most likely town as there isn't really a plausible reason to reveal a hood with your partner in it in a multiball scenario.

[Testarossa]

Huh, ok. Wasn't expecting that tbh.

[Testarossa]

Like I mean, I

am

a Role Cop. Which is exactly why I pushed for Titus out of the gate this day after targeting her N2.

So, yeah. As hem said, either lim me and Titus tomorrow or get to her today. Like I think by numbers we should be able to afford it. Flip whoever you think resolves more I guess.

She is lying about being limited in shots though.

[Testarossa]

Don't want to out my N1 target though. They are alive and I think they are town.

[Testarossa]

You didn't push me until after I posted that I wanted to sort you.

Then, you promptly went scattershot pushing multiple people.

This is meaningless banter anyway, but it's absurd to claim that. Of course I couldn't push you before when I came into D3 after you.

The latter is rich considering I went straight for you while you wanted to "sort" anything out with me and went for Nero, when it should have been clear there shouldn't be any but's or if's from your point of view.

But again, it doesn't matter. You probably misjudged that I am a Role Cop of the other scum team, so what. I kick the bucket today, you tomorrow. C'est la vie.

[Testarossa]

Testarossa, why didn't you come out with a guilty like what Titus did? You're selling the situation like you had her checked and it's a guilty, but Titus had beat you to the punch.

I simply never claim. Never liked them. Well, unless I have a role that can be modconfirmed or something like that. Call it principle or a meta thing (it's how we used to play in the past on another site). If I got a guilty I just go after the person. That she checked me too is bad luck, will cost me my life today. As I said, I wasn't expecting that.

And in fact it was looking like the Titus lim was realistic, so even when I would consider claiming, there wouldn't have been a point in coming out of cover.

[Testarossa]

No.

[Testarossa]

VOTE: Testarossa

I am blue, if I was green I would die.

[Testarossa]

That sneaky monkey lied though.

[Testarossa]

You do realize there are TWO monkeys around. Right? Which one are you claiming told a lie? Because I sure as hell didn't.

That depends entirely which monkey you would consider sneaky.

Not my business anymore. Maybe I just rolecopped myself twice.

[Testarossa]

Thanks arc. Now I am super dead.

[Testarossa]

gg at Titus and her band of monkeys! Especially A50, I think besides Gamma there wasn't really anyone from town seriously scumreading him. That was now a second time in multiball here where I am wolf and A50 is red Mafia, going to keep that in mind for next time.

Was fun being scum for once again, even although we got hit hard with losing Elsa early and the "double guilty" later.