Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[GeneralWu]

[GeneralWu]

Why not get an avatar? Avatars are cool. I like avatars.

[GeneralWu]

What's your "home" forum?
I'm an immigrant, too.

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: GeneralWu

Shifting off of Val because they will be away for the time being, and also because GeneralWu seems more concerned with semi- relevant at best posts.
Give some thoughts about the game in your posts. Or at least a vote. -_('-')_-
I understand its D1, and you are asking questions, but going forward, it will be better to ask or answer those questions with some actual info, provided something of note has happened.
As for T3, I would avoid shifting votes without an actual reason, it is the only legitimately scummy thing you have done so far imo.

But it's still that stage of the game where most people haven't made more than like one or two posts.
And besides most other people are making a bunch of semi-relevant posts, too.

[GeneralWu]

I played a few games on Epicmafia, then swotched to another, then MU, then webDiplomacy, then here.

Remember when Epicmafia was still a thing?
It got shut down.

[GeneralWu]

I didn't know EM shut down until much later. One day, I wanted to see what was happening on that website, so I typed it into the search engine. I couldn't access the website; later I found out that it got shut down permanently.

[GeneralWu]

Also remember that other website you swotched to?

[GeneralWu]

Also remember that other website you swotched to?

AoPS.

This feels like fake conversation stimulation because you already know the answer. I might be reading too much into this though.

I did already know the answer, but I thought you might've wanted to keep it a secret since you didn't mention the name of that website in your earlier post.

[GeneralWu]

While this is technically true, it feels as though your content is aimed at discussing anything other than the game itself, and for page 2, that's fine enough for my vote.

I like going off topic during RVS.
It's sort of like the breakout rooms in Zoom school. Whenever you're in a breakout room with your friends, you never discuss the topic you're supposed to discuss.

[GeneralWu]

While this is technically true, it feels as though your content is aimed at discussing anything other than the game itself, and for page 2, that's fine enough for my vote.

I like going off topic during RVS.
It's sort of like the breakout rooms in Zoom school. Whenever you're in a breakout room with your friends, you never discuss the topic you're supposed to discuss.

I'm too old to understand this reference. *mumbles something about getting off my lawn*

That being said, while I have nothing against some early game friendliness, given that you have expressed yourself that "the faster you move out of the joke votes stage, the better.", I am skeptical of this defense from you.

Dang you brought up my criminal record :O

[GeneralWu]

Right now my only input is that catboi seems to be trying pretty hard, so he's a bit towny.
So is meg.

[GeneralWu]

Right now my only input is that catboi seems to be trying pretty hard, so he's a bit towny.
So is meg.

how much effort is considered trying?

I think they're trying hard because they're doing their best to make reads even though there aren't many posts. When there aren't many posts, making reads like that is considered trying in my opinion.

[GeneralWu]

Mafia is the hardest game I've ever played next to StarCraft, but it's not insanely hard. There are plenty of people who actually win amazingly in their first games.

[GeneralWu]

This has nothing to do with the game; but for the people with anime avatars, what are the names of the characters in your avatars? I'm really curious.

[GeneralWu]

I also think T3, Roden, and navigator are trying hard and that's making them seem towny.

[GeneralWu]

Day 1 lims are usually worse than random in newbies. If scum gets limmed day 1 there's some hard bussing going on.

I disagree. If scum gets zgrynibysed* day 1, it's very hard for scum to win.

*zgrynibysed means eliminated.

[GeneralWu]

Day 1 lims are usually worse than random in newbies. If scum gets limmed day 1 there's some hard bussing going on.

I disagree. If scum gets zgrynibysed* day 1, it's very hard for scum to win.

*zgrynibysed means eliminated.

It's pretty unlikely for one scum to push his partner so hard day 1 that the partner dies for this reason.

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: GeneralWu
His posts seem very fake helpful. He townreads me, nav, and Roden for putting in effot but won't elaborate further on that. His reads sem lazy because they look more based on postcount than actual content.

I just think you guys are trying your best to find scum early in the game even when there isn't much going on, and that's towny.

[GeneralWu]

I literally just won a scum game doing exactly that lol. I fully expect to get policy elim'd if scum gets voted out Day 1 again.

I just think it's very difficult to recover once one scum member gets eliminated day 1. Probably the only way for scum to recover in that case is to kill a town power role on night 1.

I also think it's a bad idea to policy zgrynibys you solely for the reason you mentioned.

[GeneralWu]

This has nothing to do with the game; but for the people with anime avatars, what are the names of the characters in your avatars? I'm really curious.

For mine, their name is Raqio. They're from a game called Gnosia, which is basically half visual novel and half single player Mafia in space. Mafia vs AI sounds like it wouldn't work, but all characters have legitimate tells while still being programmed to try to trick you. It's honestly really fun and intriguing, and I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys Mafia style games.

Whoa dang that's really cool. AI mafia sounds fun.

[GeneralWu]

T3 still gives me weird vibes, but I think that might be because he reminds me of a player in my other game who turned out to be scum. Actually analyzing what he's said so far though seems to lean slightly townish. Things like asking what color a person's role was (there should only be two going by the sample PMs and scum would already know what everyone's is if that's the case) and pointing out problems with Wu's posts. None of that's definitive, but it has made me a bit less wary if nothing else.

Honestly, I also think T3 is a bit weird. It's a bit suspicious how he just voted me for townreading people and not elaborating further, even though when I made those reads there weren't many posts and thus not much to explain. I also think it's a bit weird how he said navigator is locktown, because I wouldn't locktown anybody so early in the game.

[GeneralWu]

Wu is probably the scummiest of the people that have posted so far, but I don't know if that's just me being easily influenced. One thing I will say is the assumption that scum won't bus day 1 is false, that's actually a somewhat effective strategy in certain games, especially on this forum (at least that's what I was told by one of the SE players in my last game). All it takes for a mafia victory is one tricky and charismatic scum player, so having a partner isn't technically necessary, especially since that'd make it easier for you to have more influence on who dies since you'd have complete control over NK

I'm not saying that there's no bussing at all during day 1. I'm just saying that it's pretty difficult for scum to recover if one scum member gets zgrynibysed day 1; therefore it's unlikely for scum to bus so hard that one scum member gets zgrynibysed early on.
Having a partner makes it easier to win the game because if you're mafia and your partner dies, then you have to kill more townies to win. While it is easy to make yourself look towny through extreme bussing on day 1, it's a huge risk because it doesn't always work. Furthermore, you'd automatically lose the game if, for instance, a town cop investigates you on night 1. If you had a partner, it wouldn't be an automatic loss.

Also, in every mafia game I've ever played, I don't think there were any huge disagreements over the NK.

Having a partner isn't necessary for winning, but you can be at a huge disadvantage if you lose your partner early in the game.

[GeneralWu]

Why is it not weird to locktown people this early in the game? If you locktown people this early, you might not consider the possibility of your being mistaken.

Also how is Roden towny for suggesting he be policy zgrynibysed?

[GeneralWu]

Also how is Roden towny for suggesting he be policy zgrynibysed?

Take it from someone that did something similar in my first game, asking to be eliminated reads as incredibly towny on this forum since most scum have too much self preservation to risk anyone actually following through. Basically if someone says they wouldn't have a problem being eliminated there's room for doubt, but if someone actively encourages their elimination if things play out a certain way, the chances of them being town are higher.
Obviously that doesn't work with games that have unusual roles or modifiers like vengeful and there's a chance that scum might just be willing to take the risk, but those are circumstances that aren't likely to happen in a newbie game so to most people it reads as a town action

If you're a townie, you know 100% that you're town, so if you get zgrynibysed you know that town will 100% lose one member.
I'd say that asking to be zgrynibysed is NAI because both town and scum have strong motivations for not wanting to be zgrynibysed.

[GeneralWu]

I'm confident that nav is town.

Why though?

[GeneralWu]

What's pocket again?
I remember hearing this word before but I haven't played mafia in so long that I've forgotten what it means.

[GeneralWu]

I’ll post more complete reads eventually. I didn’t realize that each game day was a week tbh


Home forum is breadnroses, game days are usually a day

Range of high chaos to vanilla but we skew high chaos

You're used to 24 hour games but then you disappeared for over 36 hours? Doesn't really add up to me.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

He might just be busy or something.
Or he might think that since day 1 is so long, there's no need to post as much right now.
I think his activity is NAI.

[GeneralWu]

I don't think shwinniebego's inactivity is scummy. Usually, people who don't post that much might just be busy

I think shwinniebego probably just doesn't know exactly what's going on, and I wouldn't attack him this soon.

Besides, where did shwinniebego lie?

[GeneralWu]

I don't normally switch my vote up this much. But if you don't want to pressure scummy activity, then pressuring you instead seems like the only way to get this game going.

This sounds like "kill shwinniebego or die".

[GeneralWu]

I don't think shwinniebego's inactivity is scummy. Usually, people who don't post that much might just be busy

I think shwinniebego probably just doesn't know exactly what's going on, and I wouldn't attack him this soon.

Besides, where did shwinniebego lie?

I wanna add that if he keeps doing what he's been doing, then that's suspicious. Since this is his first game on this forum, I think he's just getting used to everything; but if he continues to not provide any evidence for any of his claims, then that raises some red flags.

[GeneralWu]

.

But basically, when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so.

Let’s see how well your self improvement regiment is working. You are scum! I think it’s evil to share your own internal process about how you react to being sussed. Real townies have no feelings, we sublimate ourselves to the collective good. VOTE: Roden

I don't think it's scummy to share your own internal process about how you react to being sussed. I think it's towny because you can scumhunt by looking at the people who are attacking you and then figuring out who's attacking you in a suspiciou smanner.

I’ll hammer General Wu right now out of boredom if someone asks me to

Why don’t you want General Wu hammered?

That’s a highly suspicious move. Putting vote pressure on Wu and then hopping off after I threatened a hammer?

I’m struggling to read that behavior through a town lens.

That's a towny move because he's trying to not rush the day.
It's scummy how you want to hammer out of boredom.

I think you are a very suspicious catboi

I’d vote ya but I need to keep presh on Roden. They have it comin!

Your reason for voting Roden seems pretty bad.

(In my experience, my playstyle is not any less effective at hunting wolves than anyone else's - at least not on D1. I think town will thank me for drawing attention from wolves in various ways.)

VOTE: shwinnebego

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[GeneralWu]

shwinniebego is just jumping around, and I think he's trying to find all sorts of ways to accuse people for little or no reason.
His reasons are also not really making sense.
I think there's a chance he's scum.

[GeneralWu]

I don't think shwinniebego/roden is w/w. If they're both scum, I don't think they're very coordinated.
A few of Roden's posts seem off (like 115, which sounds suspicious), but shwinniebego is probably the scummiest as of right now, though.

catboi is acting very towny right now because he could've just kept his vote on me and let shwinniebego hammer me for no reason, but he chose not to.

Also, save the dragons has posted mostly only one-liners as of right now. It doesn't seem like he's joining the discussion, and that's a bit suspicious.

[GeneralWu]

Where did T3 fake crumb in this game again?

[GeneralWu]

shwinn is a prime example of legit "TSTBS"

I don't think he's TSTBS; he's more likely SSTHIS (so scummy that he is scum).

[GeneralWu]

Also quick note I think Meg is towny. Though he has few posts compared to some of the other people in this game, those posts show some really decent effort to scumhunt.

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: T3

hello!

I’m keeping my vote where it is based on vibes!

Anyone who thinks I should move it should ping me and make a compelling case

These are some of shwinnie's early posts. He votes T3 on the first page, even though T3 just got voted earlier. This might be a genuine townie move, but I can also see it coming from newbscum who, during RVS, vote people who have already been voted just to find a way to push to eliminate someone.

Also, shwinnie says that "anyone who thinks [he] should move it [the vote on T3] should ping [him] and make a compelling case". However, he himself barely makes a compelling case to explain why he voted T3 in the first place. This sounds suspicious to me.

[GeneralWu]

Also speaking of T3, I just realized that we joined this website almost exactly one year apart.

[GeneralWu]

a

[GeneralWu]

I feel that T3 is town because he's trying to solve the game. However, something about him seems a bit off.

I haven't looked at Val too much yet since he just got back like yesterday.

catboi is town because he could've just left his vote on me and let shwinnie zgrynibys me for no reason, but he didn't do that.

navigator seems genuinely trying to help, though I don't agree with everything he says about mechanics.

Meg is also towny. Though he makes fewer posts, those posts actually contain content that moves the game along. He also tried to stimulate discussion even very early in the game, indicating that he was trying his best to scumhunt and move the game out of RVS.

Roden seems weird since he was quick to jump on shwinnie. It's a bit scummy, but I don't think Roden/shwinnie is w/w.

save the dragons is inactive and most of his posts are one-liners. Some of his posts also don't do anything to move the game along.

[GeneralWu]

I just came off a game where I claimed Survivor Doctor as Mason. Point is, fakeclaiming is NAI for me.

Why would you claim survivor doctor as mason?

Also, fakeclaiming is usually scummy activity; it doesn't really help to fakeclaim as a townie unless you're trying to do a reaction test or something.

Or maybe during RVS when somebody goes like "hey everybody, I'm a mafia rolecop come kill me!!!!!!!!!!" as a joke.

By the way, "rolecop" is a very fun word to say. So is the word "sunspots".

[GeneralWu]

I just came off a game where I claimed Survivor Doctor as Mason. Point is, fakeclaiming is NAI for me.

Why would you claim survivor doctor as mason?

Also, fakeclaiming is usually scummy activity; it doesn't really help to fakeclaim as a townie unless you're trying to do a reaction test or something.

Or maybe during RVS when somebody goes like "hey everybody, I'm a mafia rolecop come kill me!!!!!!!!!!" as a joke.

By the way, "rolecop" is a very fun word to say. So is the word "sunspots".

Because it was reverse mafia.

What's reverse mafia?

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: GeneralWu
His posts seem very fake helpful. He townreads me, nav, and Roden for putting in effot but won't elaborate further on that. His reads sem lazy because they look more based on postcount than actual content.

T3 still gives me weird vibes, but I think that might be because he reminds me of a player in my other game who turned out to be scum. Actually analyzing what he's said so far though seems to lean slightly townish. Things like asking what color a person's role was (there should only be two going by the sample PMs and scum would already know what everyone's is if that's the case) and pointing out problems with Wu's posts. None of that's definitive, but it has made me a bit less wary if nothing else.

Honestly, I also think T3 is a bit weird. It's a bit suspicious how he just voted me for townreading people and not elaborating further, even though when I made those reads there weren't many posts and thus not much to explain. I also think it's a bit weird how he said navigator is locktown, because I wouldn't locktown anybody so early in the game.

It's not really weird to locktown people this early in the game. I also think Roden is towny for conceding on the nav read and sugesting he be policy limmed if there's a scumflip.

I'm confident that nav is town.

Why though?

His early viberead, him saying he can be easily influenced meanwhile agreeing with me. Complex thought processes and emotional reactions are something newbscum can't fake.

@catboi these posts make T3 seem towny. He's trying to scumhunt, though I don't necessarily agree with his reasons for his reads.

[GeneralWu]

shwinn is a prime example of legit "TSTBS"

I don't think he's TSTBS; he's more likely SSTHIS (so scummy that he is scum).

He's trying to draw attention to himself.

Why do you think he's trying to draw attention to himself?

[GeneralWu]

The people who get mafia role pms are actually the uninformed miajority and town is minority.

Oh I see
There was one game on AoPS in which that was the case, too.

[GeneralWu]

Did T3 fakeclaim in this game? I don't remember seeing him fakeclaim, but I might've missed it.

[GeneralWu]

Wait where did he fake crumb?

[GeneralWu]

@catboi these posts make T3 seem towny. He's trying to scumhunt, though I don't necessarily agree with his reasons for his reads.

Three posts? The most recent of which came on page 5? I mean, the nav read doesn't even make sense, honestly, and the one on Roden is fairly shallow - making an offhand comment joking about being policy eliminated on a day 1 scumflip isn't hard for someone of either alignment to make.

I agree that his reasons are bad, but I still think he's trying to help.

[GeneralWu]

Just curious, how did you choose your username of T3?

"T3" sounds fun to say.

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: SavetheDragons

I dislike eliminating shwinniebego here for a few reasons.
1. The first is that I find it likely that if they are a town, they are probably a PR ( or doing some WIFOM thing). I would not want to out them if they are so.
2. I think that their flip doesn't give us much information. Either they are a town that has very much struggled adapting to the meta on this site, or they flip scum, which would be a very attractive bus on a new player. Either way we don't learn much about other players.
3. I honestly don't scumread them that much, they seem too apart from the norm of mafia games like this, so I think their behavior is NAI.
4. I feel that their input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town.

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

Shwinniebego, you should post your input if you feel like you need to say something, it will both help you get better and may help town.

I would like StD to post their reads and contribute a bit more substance. It doesn't really matter if you can't post often, but at least try to post something that is useful when you do.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

So how did you feel that shwinnie's input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town? Before you made this post, I don't think shwinnie posted much content or gave many reasons for his reads.

[GeneralWu]

i'm not big on long posts but every once in a while i'll pull something out of my butt

You're the best poster in this thread as far as I'm concerned, regardless of your alignment! I commend your playstyle, keep it up.

Now this post seems like an attempt at pocketing.

[GeneralWu]

I feel that T3 is town because he's trying to solve the game. However, something about him seems a bit off.

I haven't looked at Val too much yet since he just got back like yesterday.

catboi is town because he could've just left his vote on me and let shwinnie zgrynibys me for no reason, but he didn't do that.

navigator seems genuinely trying to help, though I don't agree with everything he says about mechanics.

Meg is also towny. Though he makes fewer posts, those posts actually contain content that moves the game along. He also tried to stimulate discussion even very early in the game, indicating that he was trying his best to scumhunt and move the game out of RVS.

Roden seems weird since he was quick to jump on shwinnie. It's a bit scummy, but I don't think Roden/shwinnie is w/w.

save the dragons is inactive and most of his posts are one-liners. Some of his posts also don't do anything to move the game along.

shwinnie and Roden are the most suspicious people as of right now in my opinion.

[GeneralWu]

shwinnie and Roden are the most suspicious people as of right now in my opinion.

I was a pretty strong town read in your eyes up until I suspected you, so it's hard to take this as anything other than OMGUS.

I found you suspicious when you said something along the lines of "if you don't vote shwinnie, I have no choice but to vote you".

For this reason, I don't think you and shwinnie are w/w.

[GeneralWu]

I just don't think it's towny to say "vote [player] or I'll have no choice but to pressure you instead".

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: SavetheDragons

I dislike eliminating shwinniebego here for a few reasons.
1. The first is that I find it likely that if they are a town, they are probably a PR ( or doing some WIFOM thing). I would not want to out them if they are so.
2. I think that their flip doesn't give us much information. Either they are a town that has very much struggled adapting to the meta on this site, or they flip scum, which would be a very attractive bus on a new player. Either way we don't learn much about other players.
3. I honestly don't scumread them that much, they seem too apart from the norm of mafia games like this, so I think their behavior is NAI.
4. I feel that their input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town.

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

Shwinniebego, you should post your input if you feel like you need to say something, it will both help you get better and may help town.

I would like StD to post their reads and contribute a bit more substance. It doesn't really matter if you can't post often, but at least try to post something that is useful when you do.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

So how did you feel that shwinnie's input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town? Before you made this post, I don't think shwinnie posted much content or gave many reasons for his reads.

I also want meg to answer this question, because I'm pretty curious.

[GeneralWu]

Avoiding attention is also NAI.

Gonna have to disagree here. He's not just avoiding attention, he's lying to evade directly saying that. I don't see the town motivation for that.

I’ll post more complete reads eventually. I didn’t realize that each game day was a week tbh


Home forum is breadnroses, game days are usually a day

Range of high chaos to vanilla but we skew high chaos

You're used to 24 hour games but then you disappeared for over 36 hours? Doesn't really add up to me.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

He might just be busy or something.
Or he might think that since day 1 is so long, there's no need to post as much right now.
I think his activity is NAI.

You're assuming a lot here. If any of that was an issue I think he'd just say that.

Not really sure why you two seem to be against pressuring him and want to shut down potential content. Are you TMI'ing that you know Shwin is town?

VOTE: GeneralWu

I don't normally switch my vote up this much. But if you don't want to pressure scummy activity, then pressuring you instead seems like the only way to get this game going.

Can you tell me why you don't even want to consider pressuring someone who lied and is trying to avoid attention?

[GeneralWu]

Wu is blatantly trying to pocket. His reads are only based on who scumreads him.

That is not true.

[GeneralWu]

Whoa whoa whoa is this for real?

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: SavetheDragons

I dislike eliminating shwinniebego here for a few reasons.
1. The first is that I find it likely that if they are a town, they are probably a PR ( or doing some WIFOM thing). I would not want to out them if they are so.
2. I think that their flip doesn't give us much information. Either they are a town that has very much struggled adapting to the meta on this site, or they flip scum, which would be a very attractive bus on a new player. Either way we don't learn much about other players.
3. I honestly don't scumread them that much, they seem too apart from the norm of mafia games like this, so I think their behavior is NAI.
4. I feel that their input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town.

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

Shwinniebego, you should post your input if you feel like you need to say something, it will both help you get better and may help town.

I would like StD to post their reads and contribute a bit more substance. It doesn't really matter if you can't post often, but at least try to post something that is useful when you do.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

So how did you feel that shwinnie's input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town? Before you made this post, I don't think shwinnie posted much content or gave many reasons for his reads.

I also want meg to answer this question, because I'm pretty curious.

Meg meg meg did you answer this question yet?

[GeneralWu]

My main point with that part was that it seemed like swhinniebego had had a very different experience with mafia and was reading things in a different way than most of us. As such, a differing opinion could generate some good points if we end up being off track. I think that point was correct, because swhinnie responded to that post with what i think are a lot of good points in his next post.

I see.
I just found it very strange how you said shwinnie could contribute in one post, and then shwinnie immediately changed playstyle.

[GeneralWu]

GeneralWu (4): Roden, MegAzumarill, catboi, T3

stray thought, but was looking back at votecounts because I wasn't sure if who had/hadn't been pushing generalwu, and that wagon feels pure? I don't think that's a fool-proof metric as I've seen and been part of an all-town wagon on town, but that was partly motivated by deadline pressure and this decidedly wasn't. Will think more tomorrow.

Which was motivated by deadline pressure and which wasn't?
When they were all voting me, there was still a lot of time left.

[GeneralWu]

Personally I'm with Val; I don't quite buy T3 being a mason on just his word alone. I'd like to hear from Shwin before making any judgements about lynching

Personally, I also wouldn't believe T3's claim alone either, and I agree that we can't 100% believe T3 without shwinnie's word. I don't think it's very good to pretend to scumread your mason partner...

And T3, if you're fakeclaiming as town, though you say it's NAI for you, it's a bad move for town...

But assuming T3 and shwinnie are masons:
My pool is everybody except myself, catboi, std, and the masons for today.

I think std is town; I checked his other games and he usually just doesn't post anything more than one-liners and stuff as town.

[GeneralWu]

I have to ask, though, shwinn, since it's still possible you are T3s buddy, although you were always going to say "I'm not a Mason", why did it take this before you voted T3?

Why wasn't T3 your vote yesterday?

There’s probably a longer response but it boils down to “cuz I’m lazy and stupid”

Or I guess cuz I didn’t think he was the most evil seeming person. I guess I should have? I dunno everyone seems slightly evil to me.

Okay, this sounds fishy.

[GeneralWu]

is there any reason not to just hammer t3 at this point

There's still some time left, which could be used to figure out who T3's partner is.

[GeneralWu]

Sorry I have a small brain I have two questions for you cerebrally endowed folks:

1. Why would a wolf T3 lie about being in a mason chat with me

2. Why would a town T3 lie about being in a mason chat with me

For #1, I don't really know. Maybe he's trying to fish for other PRs or something.

For #2, there is no reason for a townie to fakeclaim PR.

[GeneralWu]

It's about a good idea as wiping your arse with a razor blade. There is zero reason at all - T3 isn't town.

Whoa whoa whoa don't insult people who actually wipe their arses with razor blades. I'm one of those people, and I feel very sad after seeing this post.

[GeneralWu]

I find their engagement around T3, and also with respect to me, to be disingenuous.

Why do you say that?

[GeneralWu]

But hang on, you slapped your vote down on T3 within 60 seconds of saying you weren't a mason with T3, so surely you

know

there is no reason for a town!T3 to claim that. Why are you asking?

Mainly this post. It seems like a real town player would know that other town players want to discuss the game and elicit insights from other players about their actions.

To respond to my question in this way strikes me as performative befuddlement.

Isn't he basically eliciting insights from you though?

[GeneralWu]

T3 got harwahiaghnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnrg'ed.

[GeneralWu]

Well, frankly, I am confused by it. If you aren't sure, and want to consult with teammates, why not do it BEFORE dropping the vote?

I think its your asking of the question "why does a Town!T3 claim mason with me" was perfomative given how quick the vote came after the 'not-mason' claim. Others can make thier own judgements on the matter.

The meta on this site is genuinely a bit baffling.

I’ve been told that (1) we put votes on people to pressure them but wouldn’t seriously hammer them prematurely and (2) by the time you vote you are so committed to your decision that you are signaling that you are not even interested in discussion any more.

Which is it, people?

To be honest, I think pressure votes are sometimes pretty pointless.
I also don't see the point in pressure voting, especially since in 90% of the cases nobody actually ends up hammering.

[GeneralWu]

I think it's most useful if you know someone is sensitive to getting scum read or are generally skittish/panicked when pressured. Some people don't really start playing until you force them to, which at that point it can be a lot easier to sort them.

Maybe, though half the time I find that pressure votes don't actually affect people all that much.

[GeneralWu]

Val, why do you think catboi is scum?

I think he's pretty towny.

When shwinnie said that he'd hammer me out of boredom, catboi unvoted me.
Right now, he's not hammering T3 even though T3 is basically confirmed scum. This could be because anyone who hammers right now could look suspicious, though I still think it's a towny move from catboi.

[GeneralWu]

GeneralWu, I am going to assume you haven't yet finished your read through of the thread, because I have explained.

Catboi, that is a scenario I am considering; although I think if that was the case, i think a) you would have been better served trying to shut down the speculation when it was clear it was inducing others to speculate. b) you should know not to make statements like that today - nobody is going to be pushing your slot to be today's lim, so it can wait for tomorrow and retain maximum ambiguity.

There is a reason I've put you last on the list and made clear it's a ordered one.

I think I've now said everything I want to say today in any case.

I found the post now.

[GeneralWu]

Can we get a collective "oh what the

fuck

" before we start scrambling to figure what the hell just happened

OH OH OH OH OH OH OH OH WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK IS GOING ON

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: GeneralWu

I think my general d1 suspicions toward them haven't diminished, and shwinniebego brought up a good point about how the vote on them dissolved yesterday despite them saying nothing at E-1.
Let's get this show on the road.

Also I'm on V/LA but I'll make sure to check in once a day if able.

Also what the actual frick T3.

Whoa whoa whoa hold up there: how is this a valid reason?
"shwinniebego brought up a good point about how the vote on them dissolved yesterday despite them saying nothing at E-1."
Just because I get voted to E-1 and then people stop doesn't mean I'm a wolf.

[GeneralWu]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

[GeneralWu]

StD - not helping town much despite having a chill playstyle that I dig
Wu - the popular pick and, like I mentioned earlier, I genuinely do think it's odd how quick votes melted off of him. He says it is not sus that this happened, but a wolf Wu would of course say that
catboi - went to some lengths to not vote T3

I think StD's playstyle just makes him harder to read. It's not necessarily scummy.

It's not valid to call me suspicious just because I got to E-1 and people unvoted me. How does that make me suspicious anyway?

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: SavetheDragons

I dislike eliminating shwinniebego here for a few reasons.
1. The first is that I find it likely that if they are a town, they are probably a PR ( or doing some WIFOM thing). I would not want to out them if they are so.
2. I think that their flip doesn't give us much information. Either they are a town that has very much struggled adapting to the meta on this site, or they flip scum, which would be a very attractive bus on a new player. Either way we don't learn much about other players.
3. I honestly don't scumread them that much, they seem too apart from the norm of mafia games like this, so I think their behavior is NAI.
4. I feel that their input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town.

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

Shwinniebego, you should post your input if you feel like you need to say something, it will both help you get better and may help town.

I would like StD to post their reads and contribute a bit more substance. It doesn't really matter if you can't post often, but at least try to post something that is useful when you do.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

I still find it strange how Meg said that shwinnie might be able to "generate discussion that could end up being useful to town", then shwinnie immediately changed his playstyle.

I will cast the hammer tomorrow if noone has any objections, if you do, say it now. (And i know you have questions but its late for me RN and I don't want to get into it tonight or on mobile) -_('-')_- I also don't find it relevant if I get nked, and if i don't i can always discuss on day 2.

Also, I reread the end of day 1 and I found this post, which seems odd because Meg wants to hammer despite saying "I know you have questions".

[GeneralWu]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

why

I already said this.
He actively tries to find scum. When shwinnie threatened to hammer me out of boredom, he catboi unvoted me. If catboi were scum, he could have just kept his vote on me and let shwinnie hammer. The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum. However, I think this is unlikely because catboi contributes significantly and actively helps the town.

[GeneralWu]

The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum.

You are going to have to talk me through your logic on this one, because I don't see how that works.

Assuming catboi and shwinnie are both scum:
Catboi doesn't unvote me when shwinnie threatens to hammer. I get hammered and I flip town. People now get suspicious of shwinnie because he hammered a townie for no reason.

[GeneralWu]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

why

I already said this.
He actively tries to find scum. When shwinnie threatened to hammer me out of boredom, he catboi unvoted me. If catboi were scum, he could have just kept his vote on me and let shwinnie hammer. The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum. However, I think this is unlikely because catboi contributes significantly and actively helps the town.

Scum can do exactly that to get free town points and pocket somebody who's life in the game was hanging by a thread. It isn't an uncommon scum tactic at all.

But at that time, there was still plenty of time left in Day 1. If we assume catboi was scum and shwinnie was town, catboi could have significantly cut town's discussion time and thrown shade on shwinnie by keeping his vote on me and letting shwinnie hammer.

[GeneralWu]

Also, question: what do we do about the other mason?

[GeneralWu]

i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh.

Actually, here's a take: this is a post coming from someone who knows T3 will flip town.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

How come?

[GeneralWu]

Actually I now agree that StD is just a hard-to-read low poster; he's not necessarily towny based on meta.
I can't actually find anything besides meta to show that he's towny.

[GeneralWu]

Dammit I forgot to comment on the General Wu quotes.

Put it this way: I am very interested in hearing a comprehensive assessment of the gamestate (that doesn't mean long-winded, however you prefer to communicate is fine - I think there are many just fine ways to share information and analysis in this game) from exactly General Wu and SaveTheDragons

Please share your thoughts. Why did T3 fakeclaim? What do you make of the folks who voted for him? Of the folks who didn't? Who do you think is most likely to be evil right now, and why? Cheers friends!

I don't know why T3 fake claimed.
But since you disproved T3's claim, T3 was guaranteed to be the lynch that day, so it's hard to distinguish who's towny and scummy based on votes alone.

I do find Meg suspicious because of this post, which I'm gonna quote right now.

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: SavetheDragons

I dislike eliminating shwinniebego here for a few reasons.
1. The first is that I find it likely that if they are a town, they are probably a PR ( or doing some WIFOM thing). I would not want to out them if they are so.
2. I think that their flip doesn't give us much information. Either they are a town that has very much struggled adapting to the meta on this site, or they flip scum, which would be a very attractive bus on a new player. Either way we don't learn much about other players.
3. I honestly don't scumread them that much, they seem too apart from the norm of mafia games like this, so I think their behavior is NAI.
4. I feel that their input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town.

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

Shwinniebego, you should post your input if you feel like you need to say something, it will both help you get better and may help town.

I would like StD to post their reads and contribute a bit more substance. It doesn't really matter if you can't post often, but at least try to post something that is useful when you do.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

I still find it strange how Meg said that shwinnie might be able to "generate discussion that could end up being useful to town", then shwinnie immediately changed his playstyle.

I will cast the hammer tomorrow if noone has any objections, if you do, say it now. (And i know you have questions but its late for me RN and I don't want to get into it tonight or on mobile) -_('-')_- I also don't find it relevant if I get nked, and if i don't i can always discuss on day 2.

Also, I reread the end of day 1 and I found this post, which seems odd because Meg wants to hammer despite saying "I know you have questions".

[GeneralWu]

VOTE: GeneralWu

Shifting off of Val because they will be away for the time being, and also because GeneralWu seems more concerned with semi- relevant at best posts.
Give some thoughts about the game in your posts. Or at least a vote. -_('-')_-
I understand its D1, and you are asking questions, but going forward, it will be better to ask or answer those questions with some actual info, provided something of note has happened.
As for T3, I would avoid shifting votes without an actual reason, it is the only legitimately scummy thing you have done so far imo.

Meg was pretty quick to attack me during RVS. I can see this as trying to move the game along, but in the beginning of the game, there really isn't much to talk about.

While this is technically true, it feels as though your content is aimed at discussing anything other than the game itself, and for page 2, that's fine enough for my vote.

I like going off topic during RVS.
It's sort of like the breakout rooms in Zoom school. Whenever you're in a breakout room with your friends, you never discuss the topic you're supposed to discuss.

The problem isn't that you are not particularly suspicious for doing so, but that being off topic damages town.
You can provide input to the game and still add to those conversations at the same time if you wish. But only going into those only benefits scum.
If you (GeneralWu) could go into your thoughts on the game at hand that would be great.

In the beginning of the game, it's more fun to go off topic.

VOTE: GeneralWu

Hadn't finished reading and didn't see catboi unvote.
My thoughts: GeneralWu has generally done nothing to try to find scum this game, the closest to their "scumreads" is questioning why poeple think other people are towny. Now they jump to the defense of another player that realistically would not be voted out nor has done anything worthy of being townread.
Honestly it seems like GeneralWu is either scum that is paired with shwinnebago.

I would ask to not put people to E-1 though, as the longer this day goes on, the more informed decisions we can make.

Meg is focused on attacking me for "not contributing". But questioning why people think other people are towny is one way of contributing. I defended shwinnie when Roden attacked him because at that time, I didn't think there was any reason to vote out shwinnie. I don't see why that's scummy behavior.
On the other hand, Meg doesn't attack any of the other non-contributors, most notably shwinnie. He just asks shwinnie to contribute more.

Welcome back Val, glad to hear what you have to say, a lot of it has good points
And what I meant in my earlier post was that it feels like GeneralWu wouldn't have had enough information to realistically want to defend swhinniebago as quickly as she did.
Thus I SR both of them as partners.
Although I still think GeneralWu is a good hang here, after shwinnie has posted more they seem very untrusting. (i.e. they only had 2 TR and 6 SR)
This feels a lot more townie than scummy, although I disagree with quite of few of their reads.
I would like StD and Wu to contribute more to the conversation though.

I didn't defend shwinnie because I thought he was towny. If you read my posts, you can see that I simply thought shwinnie wasn't scummy. Not scummy ≠ towny.

shwinniebego, just stop with this hammer nonsense. We do not want D1 to end yet. Think about what happens if you hammer. Not only do we lose a power role if GeneralWu is one, we also lose a few days of discussion (which can be quite helpful as our total discussion in the game is on a soft limit) We also have the most on track person silenced for the rest of the game (ala nightkill.) It doesn't really matter what GeneralWu is, we don't want them hung until later.
I understand you may scumread catboi from unvoting there is the objectively best move for town.

As a general note, voting is used for pressure to get discussion out of a player, but hammering will cut off that discussion which is the point of the vote anyway.

The problem with voting for pressure is that many players know they won't be hammered early in the game, making pressure votes essentially pointless.

VOTE: SavetheDragons

I dislike eliminating shwinniebego here for a few reasons.
1. The first is that I find it likely that if they are a town, they are probably a PR ( or doing some WIFOM thing). I would not want to out them if they are so.
2. I think that their flip doesn't give us much information. Either they are a town that has very much struggled adapting to the meta on this site, or they flip scum, which would be a very attractive bus on a new player. Either way we don't learn much about other players.
3. I honestly don't scumread them that much, they seem too apart from the norm of mafia games like this, so I think their behavior is NAI.
4. I feel that their input will generate discussion that could end up being useful to town.

Instead I feel like StD is a better vote, they overall don't provide much to town.

Shwinniebego, you should post your input if you feel like you need to say something, it will both help you get better and may help town.

I would like StD to post their reads and contribute a bit more substance. It doesn't really matter if you can't post often, but at least try to post something that is useful when you do.

And T3 appears to be avoiding confronting the accusation made at him by Val89, although the accusation doesn't hold a whole lot of weight imo.

Meg says that shwinnie could possibly contribute and help town, but he scumreads me for not contributing. This is suspicious.

I'm still thinking StD may be scum, you guys keep saying that him posting one liners and such is normal, that doesn't really make him seem townie in my eyes. At best it is NAI.
I would really like them to share reads, especially since if they get Nked we will lose that input forever.

We aren't hammering yet because we can still get meaningful discussion done before the hammer falls.

I will cast the hammer tomorrow if noone has any objections, if you do, say it now. (And i know you have questions but its late for me RN and I don't want to get into it tonight or on mobile) -_('-')_- I also don't find it relevant if I get nked, and if i don't i can always discuss on day 2.

I also find it strange how you said you wanted you wanted StD to share reads since if he gets NKed we'd lose his input, but later you said that you didn't find it relevant if you got NKed. Your last post before your hammer on day 1 sounds super strange and suspicious.

VOTE: GeneralWu

I think my general d1 suspicions toward them haven't diminished, and shwinniebego brought up a good point about how the vote on them dissolved yesterday despite them saying nothing at E-1.
Let's get this show on the road.

Also I'm on V/LA but I'll make sure to check in once a day if able.

Also what the actual frick T3.

You can't scumread me just because other people unvoted me at E-1. Look back and you'll see that caboi unvoted me when shwinnie threatened to hammer out of boredom. You also can't scumread me for not saying anything at E-1. I remember pretty clearly that I was offline for that time I was at E-1; when I got back online, catboi had already unvoted me.

Notice how at first shwinnie didn't give much input, and the input initially gave didn't contain many good reasons. I find shwinnie's behavior pretty scummy, especially his posting at the beginning of the game. I also find it incredibly scummy for Meg to attack me for "not contributing" when I did contribute. Meg also didn't attack shwinnie for not contributing, even though in the beginning of the game he really didn't contribute.

I do find shwinnie less suspicious now since he is trying his best to find scum even though his reasons aren't that good. However, I think Meg is scummy, and he seems to be buddying with shwinnie. I also find it suspicious how Meg made a big long post about why he didn't want to eliminate shwinnie, and then shwinnie immediately started contributing.

I recommend we get Meg first, and if he flips red, I'd recommend getting shwinnie.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

[GeneralWu]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

VOTE: SaveTheDragons

This is my best guess for today.

Roden, you said you wanted to cast the hammer vote. You still gonna do that?

I haven't read everything yet, but I feel like these posts are trying to encourage an early hammer. Shwinnie's repeated desires for an early hammer (including the fact that he wanted to hammer out of boredom on day 1) make him suspicious.

[GeneralWu]

By the way, I'm going to be busy for the next few days, so:
VOTE: V/LA until 8/1

[GeneralWu]

I feel like I'm talking to a flat-earther

Flat is justice.

I'm still going through everything, by the way.

[GeneralWu]

By the way, the best choice is to not eliminate anyone today.

[GeneralWu]

As much as it's a bit of a pain in the ass for whoever replaces Val, I'd like to just eliminate that player today and see what happens.

keepin' my vote on val/val's replacement

I hope folks will join me in hammering val and ending this game, it's getting a bit tedious tbh

Your eagerness to hammer someone quickly is suspicious, especially because you've been like this for pretty much the entire game.

[GeneralWu]

hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

If possible, can you explain why you just moved your vote?

Please spell it out plainly if possible, unless you really really think that continuing to post cryptically will benefit town. If you do not do that, then barring someone else explaining to me why your cryptic approach to posting helps town in a sufficiently compelling fashion, I will interpret your actions and cryptic justifications for them as wolfish behavior.

i do not think discussing this benefits the town

Okay, this here seems confusing. Why is not discussing beneficial to town?

[GeneralWu]

Do you think val matches his scum meta?

[GeneralWu]

He moved his vote because he thought Val was hinting at being a mason but didn't want to out it.

Wait, I can't seem to find where he said that.

[GeneralWu]

This doesn't have to do with the game, but I found an old screen recording I made of an EpicMafia game. I'm crying now that I know EpicMafia is dead forever.

[GeneralWu]

Good game everybody.

I was not expecting Roden and StD to be the mafia team.

[GeneralWu]

RIP Radical Rat, who died instantly.

[GeneralWu]

I'll be having a word with the listmod about T3 after the game officially concludes though, because in my opinion his play was absolutely inexcusable for a SE in a newbie game. The opening post says not to fakeclaim as town, doing what he did was completely antitown.

To be honest, I think nonstandard gambits are cool sometimes.
T3's move might not have been the best, but it did generate some reactions and stuff.

[GeneralWu]

Was the no NK intentional then?

Kind of. I suggested either killing Catboi or going for no kill to keep as many suspects as for possible for endgame, but we didn't come to an agreement in time and defaulted to no kill.

It's nice to get a no kill every once in a while.

Now, if two people in the game were AFK during the entirety of the night, that no kill gambit might've been even better.

[GeneralWu]

Well, anyway, now that the dust has settled, I hope the newbies from this game stick around even if the game was a bit of a disaster. I did enjoy playing with you all regardless.


Although I feel uncomfortable with giving advice, as I was largely awful this game, if anyone wants feedback, feel free to ask.

I think you did pretty well.
I will take some feedback.