Newbie 2073: Parfait (Over)

[Roden]

VOTE: MegAzumarill

Azumarill is actually one of my favs, so this vote comes with a heavy heart.

[Roden]

Everyone's talking about their past games and I'm over here like "this is my second game ever" lol

Tbh the RVS stage seems practically designed to throw people off-track, so imma reserve judgement for when there's more to go on.

I will say that T3 gives me weird vibes that I can't quite explain, but I dunno if I'd outright call him scum.

The only other person I've really taken notice of is Val but since he's VLA I'll have to wait til he comes back to look more into.

That's normal for T3, or at least NAI.

navigatorv locktown lol

To elaborate, I think newbie vibereads usually come from town.

Idk if you should locktown them quite yet, they're new but not brand new. If anything I think you'd draw the attention of newbscum, since your posts might make you look like easy mis-elim bait.

[Roden]

While this is technically true, it feels as though your content is aimed at discussing anything other than the game itself, and for page 2, that's fine enough for my vote.

I like going off topic during RVS.
It's sort of like the breakout rooms in Zoom school. Whenever you're in a breakout room with your friends, you never discuss the topic you're supposed to discuss.

The problem isn't that you are not particularly suspicious for doing so, but that being off topic damages town.
You can provide input to the game and still add to those conversations at the same time if you wish. But only going into those only benefits scum.
If you (GeneralWu) could go into your thoughts on the game at hand that would be great.

Quick question so I can gauge you better. How much experience do you have with Mafia?

[Roden]

I have had a lot of experience with mafia, but mostly in real-time formats. A lot of what applies to there doesn't apply here. (the games are played in a much different way.)
Although I do have some experience with the rolelists used on this site from another site that used some of the same rolelists, this kind of forum game is new.
Conclusion: I am going to mess up everything rather than be confused.
It's the perfect storm of thinking I know what I am doing and getting everything wrong.

Ok, this is actually the exact vibe I was getting from you. A sort of experienced mindset but not nuanced to this style yet. It's pretty much how I played my first game here lol. Don't worry too much about messing up, think of this game more as a baseline of what to expect going forward.

Main reason I was asking though was because I wasn't sure if you knew the meta here yet. RVS is pretty slow here, so most people give very little reason for swapping votes around and joke post for the first few pages. What usually happens is someone eventually says something off or scummy, and then gets pounced on by a more aggressive player. That or scum makes an "innocent" RVS vote that puts someone at E-2 and officially gets a wagon going.

[Roden]

That's fair. It was more the specific reasoning for townreading me.

Did they town read you? It seemed more like they wanted to scum read you off of the vibes they got, but didn't want to commit to an accusation so early into the game.

[Roden]

That's fair. It was more the specific reasoning for townreading me.

Did they town read you? It seemed more like they wanted to scum read you off of the vibes they got, but didn't want to commit to an accusation so early into the game.

Mb, I meant scumreading me. I think it's hard for newbie scum or even relatively new scum to fake genuine emotional reactions to posts.

That's a fair point honestly. My AtE posts tend to ping people when I'm scum, so you're not wrong.

I get bad vibes from Riden but that might be confbiasing on paranoia because I just lost to scum him.

Lmao, this is also fair. I'm honestly really glad I got town this time around because I don't have the energy to attempt another scum game after that last one.

Day 1 lims are usually worse than random in newbies. If scum gets limmed day 1 there's some hard bussing going on.

I disagree. If scum gets zgrynibysed* day 1, it's very hard for scum to win.

*zgrynibysed means eliminated.

It's pretty unlikely for one scum to push his partner so hard day 1 that the partner dies for this reason.

I literally just won a scum game doing exactly that lol. I fully expect to get policy elim'd if scum gets voted out Day 1 again.

[Roden]

This has nothing to do with the game; but for the people with anime avatars, what are the names of the characters in your avatars? I'm really curious.

For mine, their name is Raqio. They're from a game called Gnosia, which is basically half visual novel and half single player Mafia in space. Mafia vs AI sounds like it wouldn't work, but all characters have legitimate tells while still being programmed to try to trick you. It's honestly really fun and intriguing, and I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys Mafia style games.

[Roden]

I literally just won a scum game doing exactly that lol. I fully expect to get policy elim'd if scum gets voted out Day 1 again.

I just think it's very difficult to recover once one scum member gets eliminated day 1. Probably the only way for scum to recover in that case is to kill a town power role on night 1.

I also think it's a bad idea to policy zgrynibys you solely for the reason you mentioned.

100% agree that me getting policy elim'd is a bad idea lol.

I do agree that it is difficult to recover if you didn't bus your partner. If you're on the wrong side of the vote on a Day 1 scum elim and PRs are still floating around, it's pretty much just GG.

[Roden]

As an aside, I know we're still early in the game but I want to hear more from Catboi and StG. StG just isn't saying much, and Catboi is a really strong town player from what I've seen so I'm surprised he hasn't been more active. 2061 was a very impressive and entertaining town win and I've been hoping to get in a game with him ever since reading it.

[Roden]

As an aside, I know we're still early in the game but I want to hear more from Catboi and StG. StG just isn't saying much, and Catboi is a really strong town player from what I've seen so I'm surprised he hasn't been more active. 2061 was a very impressive and entertaining town win and I've been hoping to get in a game with him ever since reading it.

Oh gosh, didn't realize I had a fan. ｡(*^▽^*)ゞ

For real though, for most of that game I felt like I was a huge mess, and only barely recovered at the end, in part because I was in a position where the two other town players were likely clear to me and so I was best positioned to figure out the truth. In the newbie games I've played since returning to the site, the early game has not been a strength for me - I'm still trying to work out the best way to provoke discussion and move things forward without dominating the conversation or causing misunderstandings. I work better when there's more evidence to analyze, which is why I like replacing in. My approach to this game is still undecided, in an ideal world I'd hang back from an ivory tower and watch things play out before passing judgments, but if the game isn't moving enough I'll have to nudge things things along

(as for why I was inactive, though, I didn't feel like posting on friday night)

This is actually closer to my preferred town play too. I'm usually more aggressive as scum since I already have a bunch of info and don't have to worry about being wrong. But every time I try to play aggressively as town, I often end up throwing lol.

Also fair about not wanting to post on a Friday night.

For you, anyway, I feel like most of your posts have been giving off something of a 'neutral' vibe - you've been avoiding ruffling any feathers with the stuff you've been saying and that won't do for me. I want to hit me with your strongest opinion right now - if you absolutely HAD to guess someone as scum right now, who would it be?

Oof, yeah you got me there. I'm trying to hang back a bit more like I said, but also I just had a scum game and it was draining for me.

Gun to my head, guess on scum would be difficult tbh since Val and Shwinnebego haven't given us much to work with, and you admittedly haven't generated much content yet either. Maybe T3? Town locking Navi this early into the game feels off.

What's pocket again?
I remember hearing this word before but I haven't played mafia in so long that I've forgotten what it means.

It's basically just the act of gaining somebody's trust. Usually done by hard defending them and/or sheeping their reads, but you can also just be super friendly with them so they feel too guilty to vote for you.

[Roden]

I’ll post more complete reads eventually. I didn’t realize that each game day was a week tbh


Home forum is breadnroses, game days are usually a day

Range of high chaos to vanilla but we skew high chaos

You're used to 24 hour games but then you disappeared for over 36 hours? Doesn't really add up to me.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

[Roden]

Provable lies are NAI.

Technically true, but I think context matters here. If he usually plays quicker games and didn't expect Day 1 to take so long, it makes no sense for him to be a non-presence here unless he's trying to avoid attention. He hasn't shifted his vote off of you yet either even though he claimed three other people are evil.

[Roden]

Avoiding attention is also NAI.

Gonna have to disagree here. He's not just avoiding attention, he's lying to evade directly saying that. I don't see the town motivation for that.

I’ll post more complete reads eventually. I didn’t realize that each game day was a week tbh


Home forum is breadnroses, game days are usually a day

Range of high chaos to vanilla but we skew high chaos

You're used to 24 hour games but then you disappeared for over 36 hours? Doesn't really add up to me.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

He might just be busy or something.
Or he might think that since day 1 is so long, there's no need to post as much right now.
I think his activity is NAI.

You're assuming a lot here. If any of that was an issue I think he'd just say that.

Not really sure why you two seem to be against pressuring him and want to shut down potential content. Are you TMI'ing that you know Shwin is town?

VOTE: GeneralWu

I don't normally switch my vote up this much. But if you don't want to pressure scummy activity, then pressuring you instead seems like the only way to get this game going.

Can you tell me why you don't even want to consider pressuring someone who lied and is trying to avoid attention?

[Roden]

I don't think shwinniebego's inactivity is scummy. Usually, people who don't post that much might just be busy

I think shwinniebego probably just doesn't know exactly what's going on, and I wouldn't attack him this soon.

Besides, where did shwinniebego lie?

I don't understand why you'd rather infantlize someone than at the very least question them. We can't get anywhere if you just make excuses for people who vibe read three random people as scum and don't bother explaining why.

I don't normally switch my vote up this much. But if you don't want to pressure scummy activity, then pressuring you instead seems like the only way to get this game going.

This sounds like "kill shwinniebego or die".

No? I was literally the only vote on him and I didn't even tell you to vote for him. But if you're giving off scum vibes and defending other people who are doing the same, it doesn't look good. Who are we supposed to vote for if you want to shut down pressure on everyone else?

I wanna add that if he keeps doing what he's been doing, then that's suspicious. Since this is his first game on this forum, I think he's just getting used to everything; but if he continues to not provide any evidence for any of his claims, then that raises some red flags.

That's what I'm saying. I didn't demand his immediate execution, his posts just pinged me and I gave a reason for why I think he should be pressured.

Anti-town in a newbie doesn't mean scum. It's his first game.

I'm not saying he's 100% scum, and I'm not even being particularly aggressive about this. I think he can handle a little bit of suspicion throw his way, if he's town his response should easily clear things up.

I’ll post more complete reads eventually. I didn’t realize that each game day was a week tbh


Home forum is breadnroses, game days are usually a day

Range of high chaos to vanilla but we skew high chaos

You're used to 24 hour games but then you disappeared for over 36 hours? Doesn't really add up to me.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

VOTE: roden this feels opportunistic to me

How??? It's one vote my dude, it wasn't on a wagon and didn't even turn into a wagon. What opportunity could I possibly be taking advantage of here?

[Roden]

My feeling on shwinnebago's first read was newbie jumping in with an underexplained scumread on a player who wasn't discussed much is +town. That was undercut by him then accusing a bunch of people in short succession, but I'm fairly sure those accusations aren't really serious, given it was on 4 people for basically nothing. I think I have a tendency to read that sort of trollish playing as town, although that isn't inherently true, that kind of play

can

come from scum that simply doesn't care. My lean right now is toward town but that's a very slight guess.

Roden's vote on shwinnebago pinged me in the same way it did save the dragons - "opportunistic" isn't quite the words I'd use to describe it, but it felt

off

- more like it was a jump on someone who is playing "weird" rather than scummy, the kind of square peg/round hole that makes for easy misyeet fodder in newbie games. I don't find the reasoning about them being inactive particularly compelling - in particular, if someone is not used to checking the site regularly because they're not an obsessive like me, they can easily forget to post. I've been in enough newbie games to know that people from sites with higher activity often simply get bored. So, to me Roden's vote felt like a bit of a "gotcha" that I'd expect to see from scum here. I wasn't particularly a fan of the quick pivot to generalwu, who happens to be the leading wagon, either.

That

felt opportunistic.

This is wild lol. You just called me out because you said I was being too neutral. But now that I'm actually trying to take a stance and move the game forward,

that's

pinging you? What do you suggest we do if we're not allowed to pressure people or even ask questions?

Cold meta skim suggests there's a decent chance Roden is scum here~

Then vote me. I'll hammer myself if this the meta we're going with this game.

Anyone got any questions? I got answers!

I did, but apparently generating content is scummy, so...

[Roden]

This is wild lol. You just called me out because you said I was being too neutral. But now that I'm actually trying to take a stance and move the game forward, that's pinging you? What do you suggest we do if we're not allowed to pressure people or even ask questions?

Little bit defensive here? Yes, okay, you did make votes to move the game forward, but my feeling was that those votes, and the reasoning for them, were votes I could see coming from scum here. I'm hardly suggesting you shouldn't be allowed to pressure people or ask questions, and to say that in response seems fairly hyperbolic. By the same token, I'm just pressuring you right now. I'm not married to the read or anything.

My problem here is that, yes, this is a newbie game, but you've played Mafia long enough that you should know that one vote =/= execution, only a hammer does. My vote on Shwinnebego was the only vote on him and I was the only person trying to apply pressure. He wasn't in any danger of getting flash wagon'd, let alone eliminated. Not only that, but Wu clearly already had a wagon going, and T3 had two votes on him and was within wagon range. If I'm scum they're the more clear choice here, since Wu already has suspicion on him and I already said I had suspicions on T3.

It's not like I'm just bullshitting either. You have a read on Shwinnebego now that you didn't have before. I don't see how you can genuinely scum read me while also benefiting from the pressure I applied which you scum read me for.

@Roden:

What's your read on me?

After that last post, it's not looking good. Scum reading somebody for applying pressure on a non-presence doesnt feel like a town thought process at all. However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game. I'm just gonna stand back for now.

[Roden]

My problem here is that, yes, this is a newbie game, but you've played Mafia long enough that you should know that one vote =/= execution, only a hammer does. My vote on Shwinnebego was the only vote on him and I was the only person trying to apply pressure. He wasn't in any danger of getting flash wagon'd, let alone eliminated. Not only that, but Wu clearly already had a wagon going, and T3 had two votes on him and was within wagon range. If I'm scum they're the more clear choice here, since Wu already has suspicion on him and I already said I had suspicions on T3.

It's not like I'm just bullshitting either. You have a read on Shwinnebego now that you didn't have before. I don't see how you can genuinely scum read me while also benefiting from the pressure I applied which you scum read me for.

Well, I'm not really sure your vote was what provoked the response from shwinn that lead me to read him as town, and even if it

were

, that doesn't make you inherently town, you know? I know Shwinn wasn't in danger of getting executed, that wasn't my problem with your vote - my problem was more along the line that your vote felt like one scum would make, going after someone on a technicality like them being inactive when they're used to shorter games, which, as I said, felt like a "gotcha", when in reality it's very likely he just wasn't that interested in the game regardless of alignment.

I think there's a misunderstanding here or maybe I wasn't clear enough with my intentions. Considering T3 and Wu also reacted similarly as you, it's probably the latter. I wasn't trying to get Shwinn elim'd or even really get a wagon going, I was basically just pointing an empty gun at him and telling him to explain. I wasn't trying to provoke an inactive player to post more, but just get him to clear up the situation. What bugged me is that nobody seemed to want to let him and kept trying to speak for him.

After that last post, it's not looking good. Scum reading somebody for applying pressure on a non-presence doesnt feel like a town thought process at all. However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game. I'm just gonna stand back for now.

*Shrug* As I've said, wasn't about you applying pressure necessarily, but the way an reason you did it.


I don't scum read you any more, though.


VOTE: GeneralWu

Are you getting bad vibes from Wu? Or do you think he just hasn't really done much to get a town read yet?

[Roden]

However, I think it's bad for town if I OMGUS tunnel you for that, and I don't want to counter argument further while I'm still in a defensive mind set since that screwed me over in my last town game.

Roden, since you are around, would you mind explaining this a little more - I'm trying to figure out what I'm feeling about your little back-and-forth with Catboi, and I'm having some difficulty pharsing what you mean here.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86996

Idk how much homework you want to do, but this specific game showcases my biggest weakness as town. I got death tunneled by Nancy and reacted pretty badly, though Bulge didn't really help there since he thought gaslighting as town was somehow a good idea.

But basically, when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so. I'm trying to fix that and avoid ten pages of arguing over nothing by stepping back in regards to Catboi, because even if he is scum I might end up getting disregarded or mis-elim'd instead. Mainly because I don't think tunnel arguments generate a whole lot of viable content and it'll more likely just shit up the thread.

[Roden]

It certainly didn't look like you were just pressuring shwinn to post more - you specifically called him out on his absence in 115, saying it "doesn't really add up". Looked like a serious suspicion to me.

That's what I'm saying though. It

was

a serious suspicion. It doesn't mean I want him gone ASAP.

Having decided my suspicion on you might be misplaced, I moved back to my original read, because I feel like despite the game kicking into a higher gear, a mjaority of GeneralWu's posts still aren't really scumhunting or saying anything useful.

That's why my vote's on him too. He has the second highest post count yet not really any content or anything to work with. My only interactions with him so far have either been off topic or disputing why he's hard defending people without giving any reason to do so.

123 in particular doesn't read as a reasonable or logical conclusion to come to. It reads more like an accusation, but he doesn't push it or pressure me in any way for it. I think he wanted to vote me, but maybe he didn't want to get accused of OMGUS. Though strangely enough he's the only player who hasn't voted at all yet.

[Roden]

when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so. I'm trying to fix that and avoid ten pages of arguing over nothing by stepping back in regards to Catboi, because even if he is scum I might end up getting disregarded or mis-elim'd instead.

Man, I feel that one. Makes perfect sense now; thanks for clarifying.

Nancy was in that game??

Oof, my bad, I meant Nora. I actually caught myself almost calling Nancy "Nora" by accident in our last Newbie game lol. My only excuse is I had them one after the other in my last two games and they both have normal female names that start with N.

[Roden]

.

But basically, when I get scum read as town I tend to think the person accusing me is likely scum, especially if I think they have a really bad reason for doing so.

Let’s see how well your self improvement regiment is working. You are scum! I think it’s evil to share your own internal process about how you react to being sussed. Real townies have no feelings, we sublimate ourselves to the collective good. VOTE: Roden

Yikes.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

In fact this might be the first serious substantive reason to vote for anyone I’ve had so far. Now we’re talking. Jokephase is over for me folks, let’s hunt some ice cream melting monsters.

You're either scum claiming or troll claiming at this point.

If you're scum, you're going for a "too scummy to be scum" gambit. Which, I'm sorry to say, really isn't going to work since I prioritize voting out anti-town due to this gambit being a really common strategy in games I've played off site. I hate losing to it and I think it's lazy, so yeah, I actually do want you gone now.

If you're town, I'm assuming your strat is to troll in order to look as scummy as possible so you don't get NK'd. Problem is if you actually are town, scum already knows what you're doing and will take this into account when trying to find PRs. Depending on the Column, if they believe you can verify yourself as a PR then they won't bother taking you to ELo. So not only are you creating unnecessary chaos for town to sift through, you're inadvertently outing yourself as a PR. Which if you aren't one, then great, you'll likely draw the NK and save a PR. But if you are one, you're literally only screwing us over by doing this.

[Roden]

T3 isn't really fighting for his life here, I don't think he expects to be today's elim. So you'll likely not get a satisfying response from him, Val. Unless you get a wagon going of course, but tbh I've moved my vote around enough as it is.

I'm more interested in a Wu or Shwinn flip at this point. Wu didn't start seriously playing until their life was on the line, which felt more like a panicked scum reaction than a townie one. And other than Shwinn acting anti-town, he never responded to my accusation and isn't including me in his reads. Makes me feel like he wants to look like he's distancing himself from me so that I look suspicious after his flip. I've already been noted for bussing and it honestly looks like he's playing into that.

[Roden]

Additionally, I do have reservations about T3, Catboi, and StD, but it's nothing as substantial as how I feel about Wu and Shwinn, and I don't expect it to go down well if I try to build scum cases against five different people. So I'll stick with Wu and Schwinn for now unless one of the other three do something to ping me.

[Roden]

shwinnie and Roden are the most suspicious people as of right now in my opinion.

I was a pretty strong town read in your eyes up until I suspected you, so it's hard to take this as anything other than OMGUS.

[Roden]

I just don't think it's towny to say "vote [player] or I'll have no choice but to pressure you instead".

Can you show me where I said that?

[Roden]

That doesnt say "vote [player] or I'll have no choice but to pressure you instead". At no point do I tell you to vote Shwinn or die. You just completely shut down my suspicions without giving a real reason for why, despite me not even specifically asking you to give a hot take.

I'm not sure what you expect me to do in this scenario tbh. If you're shutting down my suspicions and leaving yourself as the only scum read person left (at the time), am I supposed to just say "well I guess the mod forgot to assign scum roles this game"? Like, I don't really understand what else you'd want me to do.

[Roden]

Suspecting somebody =/= execute this player or you're scum claiming. I don't know why I have to explain this.

[Roden]

I have a theory about T3 that formulated when I went to bed last night, but idk if I want to pursue it.

I said earlier that I think Shwinn was either scum claiming or troll claiming. And if he's troll claiming, he's likely a PR. In this scenario, I have a feeling T3 is his buddy, due to the way both are acting and reacting, but also because of a gut feeling.

Which to me, means they're either scum buddies or Masons.

Like I said, I'm hesitant to pursue this. Either I'm making a huge hero solve or this ends in disaster because I'm outting both Masons. I think they both have had scummy behavior, but if they're doing it on purpose to avoid getting NK'd I'm gonna be so sad.

[Roden]

I had a longer post written out, but after re-reading it I realized it wasn't really that helpful and could end up being anti-town. I'll just cut it short and say that I only openly speculated about PRs because the alternative would likely make my intentions look off. If I pushed either of them without clarifying why I really was doing so, or why I was also hesitant to do so, my intentions would rightfully be questioned. I wouldn't blame anyone for scum reading me in that scenario.

In addition, I don't think Shwinn scum reading T3 means much since neither are truly pushing for the other to be an elim, so it reads more like distancing to me.

[Roden]

I have a theory about T3 that formulated when I went to bed last night, but idk if I want to pursue it.

I said earlier that I think Shwinn was either scum claiming or troll claiming. And if he's troll claiming, he's likely a PR. In this scenario, I have a feeling T3 is his buddy, due to the way both are acting and reacting, but also because of a gut feeling.

Which to me, means they're either scum buddies or Masons.

Like I said, I'm hesitant to pursue this. Either I'm making a huge hero solve or this ends in disaster because I'm outting both Masons. I think they both have had scummy behavior, but if they're doing it on purpose to avoid getting NK'd I'm gonna be so sad.

Or... maybe I'm literally masons with shwinn.

You ever get hyped about being right and then get sad that you were right at the same time

[Roden]

I would like to suggest switching on StD or GeneralWu whenever shwin confirms the masonry.

This is where I'm at right now. Masons might actually just make this easier if we can narrow it down this much before Day 2.

[Roden]

What in the hell did I wake up to lmao

Sorry, I know this isn't too helpful of a post but this has been such a roller coaster for me. I thought I threw hard after T3's Mason claim but he really did turn out to be scum. Thankfully nobody has CC'd either so our PR isn't auto doomed.

As far as T3's partner goes, it wouldn't be a plot twist if it turned out to be Catboi. I'll have to reread his ISO but I did mention having reservations about him earlier.

Shwinn could easily be distancing himself from T3 here, it kinda just reads as scum theatre to me tbh. But maybe that's too easy.

I disagree that it could be Val. I think he put in way too much effort in nailing down exactly why T3 is scum. If it's a bus then it would be one of the most elaborate and convincing bus strats I've ever seen.

Meg or Nav could potentially be deep wolves, mainly because there's no real case to be made against them. But I heavily doubt this and they're likely just town.

StD looks scummy individually IMO but I don't think T3's strategy makes sense if StD is his partner. He has enough heat on him that he could reasonably be voted out Day 2, and T3's strat does nothing to fix that.

And Wu is someone who's had suspicion on him for most of the game. T3's strat doesn't really change my view on him, but I do think he's trying to solve now, and his suspicions on Shwinn are valid.

[Roden]

I don't twilight troll by the way.

You did in my first game, Newbie 2065.

Honestly I don't even know what I was doing.

I don't believe this because if you're VT the Mason claim was unnecessary. You weren't even at E-1. Why fake claim as town if you weren't even in immediate danger?

[Roden]

And Wu is someone who's had suspicion on him for most of the game

It might be a useful excerise to try and articulate the reasons why GeneralWu has been under suspicion. I don't see you having made a case against him yourself, so if you look at why he was sus'd you might find that most of it has melted away. {Wu, Schwin} obviously isn't a thing anymore.

And this should go without saying, but general warning to everyone, you should be disregarding everything T3 has said since the moment he became total obvscum; ie: from the moment shwin said "Nah, not Mason". He isn't about to be breaking the rules about playing against wincon, so anything he said/says from now in is wrapped in so many layers of WIFOM, and designed to try and confuse in order that his partner might slip away as to be totally and utterly useless in helping deduce who it is.

Yeahhhh, I realized halfway through my bit on Wu that he doesn't really have much scum equity with T3. I don't think suspicion on him is completely unfounded though, so I'll be looking through his ISO during the night phase as well.

[Roden]

You were at E-2 when you claimed Mason...

[Roden]

Another note: T3 is now a E-2. I have a feeling T3 may well self-hammer at E-1, so while I think we should be pushing this towards a T3 lim now, if you

are

casting the E-1 vote make sure you've said everything you want to say today in case the day ends shortly after.

You were on point here. But this also makes it even more confusing that T3 would think he was at E-1 when you specifically made a point to everyone not to vote him when he was at E-2.

[Roden]

I've only seem him fake hammer other players, never himself.

[Roden]

Nearly posthumous reads:
shwinn, Nav - ocklocklocktown
std - town
Val - lean scum
Wu - scum

everyone else - shit idk

Not sure how I'm unsortable when I caught scum Day 1 without actually outing Masons. I'm most likely the NK tonight unless scum thinks they can convince everyone I went for an extremely awkward bus. But tbh I'm pretty fine with dying tonight, after how I started off today I was expecting to be an easy mis-elim, so I'll take this trade.

As far as T3's partner goes, it wouldn't be a plot twist if it turned out to be Catboi. I'll have to reread his ISO but I did mention having reservations about him earlier.

Like I said to Val, would love for one of you to go into this, because I very much enjoy being able to talk about ~*^my scum game^*~ and how this isn't it.

I'm saving it for Day 2, and I think it would be smart for Val to do the same. If you aren't scum then the true last scum wants to keep one of us alive that has the better case against you for the mis-elim. If you are scum then I don't want to give you any info on who you should kill.

[Roden]

Nevermind, I was too late to warn Val lol. Still saving my case for Day 2 though so scum has less options to weigh.

[Roden]

You were a good 9 minutes late, and my whole post was quoted by T3 in between. How did you miss that one on the pedit?

I usually ignore pedit when I'm town haha. I know that can get me in trouble on occasion, but I'm only ever conscious of it when I'm scum. If you ever see a bunch of pedits from me, consider it a scum tell

but I'll avoid it in future games now lol

. I look for the same in other players since most people don't think much of it.

[Roden]

Well, frankly, I am confused by it. If you aren't sure, and want to consult with teammates, why not do it BEFORE dropping the vote?

I think its your asking of the question "why does a Town!T3 claim mason with me" was perfomative given how quick the vote came after the 'not-mason' claim. Others can make thier own judgements on the matter.

The meta on this site is genuinely a bit baffling.

I’ve been told that (1) we put votes on people to pressure them but wouldn’t seriously hammer them prematurely and (2) by the time you vote you are so committed to your decision that you are signaling that you are not even interested in discussion any more.

Which is it, people?

To be honest, I think pressure votes are sometimes pretty pointless.
I also don't see the point in pressure voting, especially since in 90% of the cases nobody actually ends up hammering.

I think it's most useful if you know someone is sensitive to getting scum read or are generally skittish/panicked when pressured. Some people don't really start playing until you force them to, which at that point it can be a lot easier to sort them.

[Roden]

Nearly posthumous reads:
shwinn, Nav - ocklocklocktown
std - town
Val - lean scum
Wu - scum

everyone else - shit idk

Not sure how I'm unsortable when I caught scum Day 1 without actually outing Masons. I'm most likely the NK tonight unless scum thinks they can convince everyone I went for an extremely awkward bus. But tbh I'm pretty fine with dying tonight, after how I started off today I was expecting to be an easy mis-elim, so I'll take this trade.

As far as T3's partner goes, it wouldn't be a plot twist if it turned out to be Catboi. I'll have to reread his ISO but I did mention having reservations about him earlier.

Like I said to Val, would love for one of you to go into this, because I very much enjoy being able to talk about ~*^my scum game^*~ and how this isn't it.

I'm saving it for Day 2, and I think it would be smart for Val to do the same. If you aren't scum then the true last scum wants to keep one of us alive that has the better case against you for the mis-elim. If you are scum then I don't want to give you any info on who you should kill.

If you think there's a possibility you'll be NKed, you should probably be making your case on who's scum right now, sine you're not going to be able to post it when you're dead!

Interesting wording to say "

when

you're dead".

I'm gonna stick to my guns on holding back though. The fact of the matter is that even if scum doesn't want to risk keeping me alive to make my case Day 2, Val's still there, and I feel good enough about him that he's town locked at this point. Think of it as me incentivizing scum to silence me so Val can clean up safely. I'd rather make them overthink the NK and worry about what I could possibly say on Day 2 than give them definite information and a best course of action.

Val, why do you think catboi is scum?

I think he's pretty towny.

When shwinnie said that he'd hammer me out of boredom, catboi unvoted me.
Right now, he's not hammering T3 even though T3 is basically confirmed scum. This could be because anyone who hammers right now could look suspicious, though I still think it's a towny move from catboi.

Scum!Catboi can easily do that for town cred tbh. Townie moves don't always come from town, especially when it's something blatant yet easy to do.

[Roden]

I think I've now said everything I want to say today in any case.

Yeah I don't have much else to add either. I'll respond if someone has something to say but I'm pretty much ready to hammer.

[Roden]

Can we get a collective "oh what the

fuck

" before we start scrambling to figure what the hell just happened

[Roden]

oops, forgot Roden - Roden has sorta gone in one ear and out the other but would be the bottom of my picks for todays quorum among the 4 t3 voters, but gonna try to watch their play more today

Appreciate it, but I'm not liking your line of logic.

I agree with Val that it is highly likely that at least one wolf didn't vote T3 after his weird mason claim gambit. Why would they? THey knew he would flip town, and they knew town was likely to quorum a townie yesterday.

I'm looking at General Wu, catboi, StD and Roden as a crew with 1-2 wolves in it.

Of these, others seem to want to quorum General Wu.

I would rank these folks in order of quorum desirability as:

StD - not helping town much despite having a chill playstyle that I dig
Wu - the popular pick and, like I mentioned earlier, I genuinely do think it's odd how quick votes melted off of him. He says it is not sus that this happened, but a wolf Wu would of course say that
catboi - went to some lengths to not vote T3

-----------

Me, Val, and Meg are the only T3 voters left. It would surprise me a lot if there were two wolves on T3 (i.e,, Val and Meg - in other words I consider Val/Meg to be a highly unlikely wolf team, to the degree that if one flips wolf I would basically clear the other as Town in my head)

But I think neither Meg nor Val are a top quorum choice for today in terms of info, and instead we oughtta quorum one of the folks that did not vote T3 (as Val suggests)

Of these, my souldread is StD but I'd happily shift to Wu if that's where we're going
VOTE: SaveTheDragons

This reads like classic "town by association" pocketing. I know because I've done this in past scum games. You've put yourself in a town block that has zero confirmed townies and your only justification for doing so is that they voted T3 and that anyone who didn't might've TMI'd they knew he'd be town. The problem is you're including Meg even though all they did was hammer, which I offered to do as well. Are you saying if I hammered first then I would be in the town block and Meg would look suspicious? Because that's the only thing I can infer from your thought process here.

What I think is that it didn't actually matter to you who voted T3, as long as you can have consensus around those who did that the voters should be clear, then it's all fine to you.

Val and Meg - in other words I consider Val/Meg to be a highly unlikely wolf team, to the degree that if one flips wolf I would basically clear the other as Town in my head

This in particular pings me, because in what world are these two ever getting flipped if they + you are the town block?

[Roden]

I don't find catboi suspicious.

why

I already said this.
He actively tries to find scum. When shwinnie threatened to hammer me out of boredom, he catboi unvoted me. If catboi were scum, he could have just kept his vote on me and let shwinnie hammer. The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum. However, I think this is unlikely because catboi contributes significantly and actively helps the town.

Scum can do exactly that to get free town points and pocket somebody who's life in the game was hanging by a thread. It isn't an uncommon scum tactic at all.

[Roden]

The only likely case in which catboi would unvote me as scum is if shwinnie is also scum.

You are going to have to talk me through your logic on this one, because I don't see how that works.

Assuming catboi and shwinnie are both scum:
Catboi doesn't unvote me when shwinnie threatens to hammer. I get hammered and I flip town. People now get suspicious of shwinnie because he hammered a townie for no reason.

But at that time, there was still plenty of time left in Day 1. If we assume catboi was scum and shwinnie was town, catboi could have significantly cut town's discussion time and thrown shade on shwinnie by keeping his vote on me and letting shwinnie hammer.

Early Day 1 wagons almost never happen exactly because of that. Shwin was never going to actually hammer you there or he would quite literally just be scum claiming or town throwing. Anyone who'd do something like that would always be a policy elim regardless of what your alignment would've turned out to be.

Say you flip town. Shwin now looks like obvscum and bar a miracle or PR claim, he is getting voted out.

Say you flip scum. Shwin now looks like he TMI'd that he knew you were scum and should 100% be the next flip, if not investigated by a PR during the Night phase. In this case we have Masons but scum doesn't know that, so the risk isn't worth it.

[Roden]

Look for who was extremely confused at the mason claim and I guarantee you you'll find scum.

Re-reading T3's ISO to try to figure out what the hell happened and this stands out to me now that we know his flip. I think this is where we need to look.

i guess it's just T3 here? i don't really see a good reason why town!T3 claims mason tbh.

Actually, here's a take: this is a post coming from someone who knows T3 will flip town.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

How come?

The language is almost too passive, it doesn't have the feeling I and other people did where we really jumped on T3 for fakeclaiming, it's kind of quizzical in the "oh huh why is he doing this", like he knows T3 isn't scum but has to push him anyway.

Tentative mindmeld.

[Roden]

Schwin/StD is too easy of a hero solve for me because otherwise they made their buddying way too blatant. I think we have a good chance of flipping scum within these two though.

[Roden]

Roden: Are you holding off on voting StD because you're afraid of putting him one vote away from hammer? Or do you have other suspicions that you would like to discuss with the thread

I do have other suspicions but that's not why I'm refraining from a vote right now. It's partially because I want to be the hammer since I don't trust anyone else's intentions. But mainly I've been waiting to see if there would be any resistance to StD's wagon and decide how to progress from there. And right now I'm seeing resistance from you, but also a really bad push from Val. This tells me that there is 100% at least one scum between the three of you.

Schwin/StD is too easy of a hero solve for me because otherwise they made their buddying way too blatant. I think we have a good chance of flipping scum within these two though.

I'd probably be better off not responding to this since it doesn't really matter but, if I'm not mistaken the 'buddying' was pretty much unilateral, aka me commending StD's chill playstyle in an otherwise aggro game. Conversely, I don't recall StD saying anything to buddy up to me, but correct me if I'm wrong.

It's something he did early on that didn't sit right with me.

I’ll post more complete reads eventually. I didn’t realize that each game day was a week tbh


Home forum is breadnroses, game days are usually a day

Range of high chaos to vanilla but we skew high chaos

You're used to 24 hour games but then you disappeared for over 36 hours? Doesn't really add up to me.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

VOTE: roden this feels opportunistic to me

There was never anything opportunistic about my vote here, and I wasn't the only one to think that. I wouldn't think anything deeper of it normally, but then he posted this:

VOTE: shwinnebago i feel like this drama is coming from scum.

t3 is town i bet. I feel like he would have done something crazy as scum by now. i don't know how accurate that read is but that's what my gut's saying.

i still hate roden's vote on shwinnebago but maybe he's onto something, although with his pussyfooting around voting shwin (going quickly to generalWu) maybe they're partners, that's probably my solve at this point.

catboi feels very solvy, as does navigator.

It's a complete flip on what he thought earlier. It comes off as unnatural which makes me think distancing, especially as he then proceeds to pair me with you. Pairing your scum buddy with a townie creates easy associatives that can then be used to clear your scum buddy if the associated townie gets elim'd first. Additionally, the bit about T3 looks bad in hindsight, and the Nav read looks really fake since Nav never got to post much in the first place.

town: shwin, catboi, generalwu
null: roden
scum: val, meg

His final reads list makes no sense as a progression. He initially thought you and me were buddies and apparently thought you were more likely to flip scum, but now you're a town read and I'm null, possibly to keep me around as a mis-elim for ELo. He's either your scum buddy or he's pocketing you, but considering your resistance to his wagon I'm inclined to believe the former.

However, there is a world where you're both town and you're actually both getting correctly pinged by Val. And no I don't think there is a fourth option here, after Val's bad push on StD I don't think it's possible for all three of you to be town.

hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

I'm not seeing the progression here. This straight up looks like a flail.

[Roden]

If it isn't apparent by now, yes Meg is one of my town reads, tbh my only full town read. I had a scum case on Catboi but only because I thought T3 was flipping scum after the fake Mason claim, my read on Catboi kinda just fell apart after that and now he's just north of null at a slight town lean.

StD Shwinn and Val contain at least one scum between them and I'm confident enough in this read to say this is guaranteed.

This, actually makes Wu a PoE choice for me. If the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn, then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here.

@Shwinn:

Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

[Roden]

So, what you are saying is that you saw me, who you think is scum, basically come out of gate on a flimsy case and basically ride it to a mislim D1,

and you sat back and watched it happen

; and decided only to come out now?

So, for the benefit of the rest of the thread, lets lock it right down - because I know precisely why you have turned your attention to my slot in particular.

Do you, StD, agree 100% there is scum between me and you?

I'll spell it out for you, once StD answers my question.

I really need you to spell this out and dumb it down for me as much as possible. Because 581 reads as a perspective slip, especially the bit I bolded and underlined.

[Roden]

Look for who was extremely confused at the mason claim and I guarantee you you'll find scum.

Re-reading T3's ISO to try to figure out what the hell happened and this stands out to me now that we know his flip. I think this is where we need to look.

Whoa whoa whoa is this for real?

I think this is the slip. Note that Wu basically became conftown when we thought T3 was scum because there was zero basis for them being partners ever. With T3 turning out to be town and seeing Wu's reaction here, I'm reading this as a faked response to mask confusion over the claim.

[Roden]

@Shwinn: Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

Could you explain why you think a scum!Wu means a town!Shwin? Could be interesting.

While you are at it, can you also explain why you consider my push on StD 'bad', if you want to be the hammer on it?

Scum!Wu has to mean town!Shwinn because of the associatives between Shwinn and StD. StD is either partners with Shwinn, pocketing Shwinn, or they're both town and you're scum. And like I said, I don't think there's a fourth option here.

Your push on StD is bad because it happened

right

as Shwinn throws in some resistance to the StD wagon, and is seemingly in direct response to StD's vote on you. Your logic in the push is just objectively flawed and you come off as being sensitive to a single vote on you, which doesn't really vibe with the last game we played where I knew you were town and you reacted differently to votes and pressure. You're generally very composed and logical, even when you came to blows in your TvT with Nancy the things you said still made sense because you believed in them. I don't see that here with this push.

[Roden]

What is my logic in the StD push, Roden?

no because i didn't know what alignment T3 was

knowing that he's town makes me go hmm

Your logic here makes such obvious sense that I struggle to believe that Val, who is possessed of perfectly adequate cognitive faculties as far as I can tell, is genuinely failing to follow it.

So, what you are saying is that you saw me, who you think is scum, basically come out of gate on a flimsy case and basically ride it to a mislim D1, and you sat back and watched it happen; and decided only to come out now?

....We didn't know it was a mislim until T3 flipped. And you know that. Why are you acting like you don't know that?

Do you, StD, agree 100% there is scum between me and you?

This question makes no sense. What did StD say that would conceivably suggest that he thinks this?

[Roden]

Val, if you're gambitting what I think you're trying to gambit I highly recommend stopping unless you're committed to your 1v1 on StD.

[Roden]

Those are all quotes from Shwinn, not me. That can't have esacaped your attention.

I am confused, because after you said my push on StD was 'bad', you then said "I really need you to spell this out and dumb it down for me as much as possible.", implying you didn't know what my logic was and wanted it explaining, then I ask you what you think my logic is in why I am pushing StD (and I'm pretty sure I haven't explaned it yet, because I think to do so before StD answers would be premature) you then act as if you know what my logic is, and it's "objectively flawed".

If there's something else to the push you're gonna have to say it. Because right now the logic of your push appears to be that StD's town perspective was that he should've known your case against T3 was bad to begin with and that you purposely got him mis-elim'd. That logically can't be true because StD's case on you was all based on hindsight. If you believe he knew that your case against T3 was bad and that you got him mis-elim'd on purpose, that implies that you're

admitting

to what he accused you of.

I'm asking you to dumb it down/spell it out because your statement as is implies a perspective slip.

[Roden]

This, actually makes Wu a PoE choice for me. If the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn, then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here.

@Shwinn:

Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

Appreciate your engagement and so on, but I must say "if the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here" seems like ... an increasingly tenuous series of logical leaps, to the point that the final conclusion you land it appears utterly divorced from reality.

You can't possibly be this certain that catboi and Meg are good.

I've felt good about Meg from the start, and unless you think the exact scenario where StD is scum also has him randomly try to distance himself from scum buddy Meg by voting them, I don't think it's Meg. Do you think you StD and Val are all town? Because I really don't think that's possible, and that's the only way Meg is scum here unless I've wildly misread the game state or town is throwing again.

Catboi I'm less certain on obviously but he's still my town lean. Do you believe the second scum is between Wu and Catboi then?

I'm trying to imagine the town!you perspective and tbh there's no reason to think both StD and Val are partners if Val wants to 1v1 him. Meg should never be today's elim and I'm not sure what your case on them could even be. You've town read me so I assume I'm off the table as well. If you're town then from your perspective I don't see you identifying the second scum as anyone other than being between Wu and Catboi, and Wu actually has a case against them while Catboi does not.

[Roden]

This, actually makes Wu a PoE choice for me. If the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn, then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here.

@Shwinn:

Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

Appreciate your engagement and so on, but I must say "if the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here" seems like ... an increasingly tenuous series of logical leaps, to the point that the final conclusion you land it appears utterly divorced from reality.

You can't possibly be this certain that catboi and Meg are good.

I've felt good about Meg from the start, and unless you think the exact scenario where StD is scum also has him randomly try to distance himself from scum buddy Meg by voting them, I don't think it's Meg. Do you think you StD and Val are all town? Because I really don't think that's possible, and that's the only way Meg is scum here unless I've wildly misread the game state or town is throwing again.

Catboi I'm less certain on obviously but he's still my town lean. Do you believe the second scum is between Wu and Catboi then?

I'm trying to imagine the town!you perspective and tbh there's no reason to think both StD and Val are partners if Val wants to 1v1 him. Meg should never be today's elim and I'm not sure what your case on them could even be. You've town read me so I assume I'm off the table as well. If you're town then from your perspective I don't see you identifying the second scum as anyone other than being between Wu and Catboi, and Wu actually has a case against them while Catboi does not.

Gonna also add that I really don't like that you're trying to include Meg in the sus list as StD tries to push them. This is what I mean by buddying.

[Roden]

Save The Dragons wrote:
hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

I'm not seeing the progression here. This straight up looks like a flail.

i mean i scumread meg, did i not?

Meg doesn't show up in your ISO until 579. You had nothing to say on the slot until then, hence the lack of progression.

What happened to your scum read on Wu? I'd think you'd jump on him here considering you actually tried to build a case on him before. I've offered him as a PoE choice and you haven't even said anything about it.

[Roden]

no because i didn't know what alignment T3 was

knowing that he's town makes me go hmm

Folks, I didn't really thinking I needed to explain in detail why this is crap. I know shwinn came in and said something but I assumed it was scum playacting. Since Roden is also now throwing this around, I guess I'll have to explain.

Until the fakeclaim, StD was openly townreading T3.

T3 and Navigator seem town to me, still reading the rest of y'all

t3 is town i bet. I feel like he would have done something crazy as scum by now. i don't know how accurate that read is but that's what my gut's saying.

He did not, perhaps deliberately, give a read on me yesterday.

There are two possibilties, and the question I posed to try and narrow it down that seemed to twig you all was aimed at distigushing between the two.

Either Std was scumreading me yesterday, in which case, as I suggested, he saw someone he thought was scum pushing on someone he thought was town, and decided to say NOTHING about it. I mean, town have decided it would be fun to just straight up throw this game, but what are the chances two townies decide to do that? I think this scenario can be ruled out, and StDs answer seems to imply the second, anyhow.

The other scenario, and the one that StD seems to suggest we are in, is that he was actually townreading me yesterday, and then reconsidered when he say that T3 was in fact, a mislim. I'm going to ask you all to reflect if any of you seriously thought that T3 was going to flip green there, and if so, why you didn't speak up sooner. I think we ALL (with the exception of the 2 scum) expected a red cad there; so StD actual case is "Looking back at it with hindsight, Val started a push on T3 that ended up wrong".

You know, I could possibly buy that that might be grounds for a little bit of suspicion, a reason to start looking at a slot. If we are seriously going to start scumreading anyone who is wrong about anyone, we are in some trouble, but the reason THAT makes no sense in this context is that catboi was ALSO pushing that wagon; as he said himself, there wouldn't have been a T3 wagon without him, and yet, StD says nothing about Catboi, in fact, he gives him a strong townread. If StD was truely re-evaluating postflip, I think catboi would have had to take some flack too - after all, StD has been playing long enough to know it's easier as scum to move forward with a miswagon someone else has started that to invent an entirely original and plausible enough case on a townie to start a wagon from scratch.

I think hedging your case on StD not scum reading you Day 1 or ignoring Catboi for doing the same thing you did you doesn't quite work, because he apparently did the same with Meg. I'm frustrated because I can't tell if he's just keeping his cards close to his chest or if he's just bullshitting all his reads. There's just no legible progression in any of his reads.

[Roden]

Save The Dragons wrote:
hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

I'm not seeing the progression here. This straight up looks like a flail.

i mean i scumread meg, did i not?

Meg doesn't show up in your ISO until 579. You had nothing to say on the slot until then, hence the lack of progression.

What happened to your scum read on Wu? I'd think you'd jump on him here considering you actually tried to build a case on him before. I've offered him as a PoE choice and you haven't even said anything about it.

i didn't say much of anything, the progression came when i reread the game this morning and decided to push val and meg.

i changed my mind on wu. call it a gut read but i think wu's town at this point.

Then what's your read on Catboi?

[Roden]

You just hammered, kinda can't now.

[Roden]

We still had five days. All that did was shut down discussion.

[Roden]

I was hoping no one would say anything, I wanted to see StD's reaction.

[Roden]

Roden, you said you wanted to cast the hammer vote. You still gonna do that?

Don't take that to mean I'm not limming StD today, short of a game breaking revelation, I most certainly am revoting, once everyones said what they feel they need to.

Yeah I'll hammer that. If you know why, then you know why.

[Roden]

I've said this before in other games, and I'll say it again now - that move is a load of crap.

Say StD goes "Oh shit, you just hammed a townie you idiots!"; how do you know that is actually guenine, or if he can simply...you know...count?

That's like asking if it's worth trying to read anyone ever because you don't know if someone is genuine or not. This strat saved a townie and got my buddy elim'd instead in my first scum game, so I've seen it work.

[Roden]

It only takes one scumbuddy to fake hammer, one scum to do the "You hammered a townie!" routine, and one town who was on the the wagon to buy it to save one scum who was otherwise up for the chop; and suddenly you will have scumbuddies everywhere trying their luck risk free.

It might have worked once in the other direction, but I am of the opinion that if you are playing mafia, you can probably count to four.

I mean, yes. But at that point it's up to town to read that situation and figure it out. If scum want to try that gambit they have a very high chance of revealing themselves if they can't sell it to the rest of town, so it's still good info at the very least.

This strat saved a townie and got my buddy elim'd instead in my first scum game, so I've seen it work.

Actually, come again? Which game was this?

I thought I had read all your games but I don't remember this one, so I might have missed one. I would be interesting to see another scum!Roden game if I have.

Newbie 2066

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86832

[Roden]

I mentioned it a few times in our last game actually, I'm surprised you never read it.

[Roden]

At the end of Day 2, Vax got fake hammered and spewed town. T3 got called out for WK'ing Vax to the point of scum slipping and then got flash wagon'd.

[Roden]

This is exactly why I said we shouldn't hammer early. Thank you for proving my point and generating content for us.

[Roden]

@Val:

I hope you did the homework I gave you because it's surprisingly very pertinent here.

Look at what Shwinn's doing here and compare it to what T3 did in the game I showed you. It looks like Shwinn just TMI'd that he knows StD is town and is trying to be on the right side of history after we flip StD. He just randomly paired me with Meg and town read literally everyone else with zero evidence or reason.

I think Shwinn is absolutely flailing here and is desperately trying to save StD. Whether they're actually blatant partners or Shwinn is just pocketing and TMI'ing, I think he actually has a better chance of flipping red here than StD.

[Roden]

Been thinking on it more and I'm pretty sure I'm right about Shwinn. The consensus on StD felt way too easy, and if Shwinn really did TMI that StD is town, then his desperate attempt to save him means StD is this game's LHF, or low hanging fruit.

Think about it. StD has barely generated any content, has posted very sparsely, and keeps doing and saying things that could be perceived as scummy. He's the obvious vote when we can't think of a better wagon, and there was almost zero resistance to his wagon aside from Shwinn. If StD was scum I think his partner would've told him to start towning it up more over a week ago, but his playstyle has remained consistent this entire time.

Now look at Shwinn. He's been buddying up with him since the start, and openly said he vibed with StD's playstyle. He votes him but never builds a case and instead

defends

him while also begging for a hammer multiple times. He needed to be on the right side of history with this vote but needed the hammer to happen before anyone could catch on. But now he's slipped and has gone quiet. I'm fairly certain I caught him at this point.

[Roden]

I'm not sure what I'm missing in regards to Meg, but that's four people now who scum read them. I don't think Val is scum, so if Meg is scum then somebody is trying to bus them. Shwinn could be doing so by partnering his buddy with me in his scum pool. I've done the same before as scum so it isn't particularly far fetched.

Is there a more comprehensive scum case on Meg? Because of the four presented, yours is the only one that makes me pause to think on it, Catboi.

[Roden]

Roden seems pretty damn sure that I'm a wolf.

Roden, how do you reconcile my consistent vote on StD coupled with you having never voted him with the "shwin is flailing desperately to defend StD" narrative?

Genuinely curious how you've squared that circle in your head.

Because you never even attempted to build a case on StD but I did. Just because I didn't vote him yet doesn't mean I wasn't going to, I've already made it clear why hammering early is a bad idea and anti-town. The results speak for themselves, you spewed TMI from getting too antsy. I don't think you're unaware of what's going on with Val either, since it's pretty obvious at this point and I feel kinda dumb talking around it.

What I'm not understanding is why you would think it looks townie to hard defend StD here, regardless of your alignment. As I said, you haven't given us a scum case and you instead reaffirmed how much you vibe with him despite scum reading him. It implies that you at the very least don't expect him to flip red. Coupled with your sudden hard defense coming in just as I suggested that Wu could be the PoE choice makes it look like you have ulterior motives. This mainly comes from my own read/PoE on Wu but also Meg's read on Wu as well since I've been town reading them.

Is there a reason you appear to be against a Wu elim? Because he went from one of your top quorum to a 4th place threat the moment he was even considered as an elim.

[Roden]

Roden seems pretty damn sure that I'm a wolf.

Roden, how do you reconcile my consistent vote on StD coupled with you having never voted him with the "shwin is flailing desperately to defend StD" narrative?

Genuinely curious how you've squared that circle in your head.

Because you never even attempted to build a case on StD but I did. Just because I didn't vote him yet doesn't mean I wasn't going to, I've already made it clear why hammering early is a bad idea and anti-town. The results speak for themselves, you spewed TMI from getting too antsy. I don't think you're unaware of what's going on with Val either, since it's pretty obvious at this point and I feel kinda dumb talking around it.

What I'm not understanding is why you would think it looks townie to hard defend StD here, regardless of your alignment. As I said, you haven't given us a scum case and you instead reaffirmed how much you vibe with him despite scum reading him. It implies that you at the very least don't expect him to flip red. Coupled with your sudden hard defense coming in just as I suggested that Wu could be the PoE choice makes it look like you have ulterior motives. This mainly comes from my own read/PoE on Wu but also Meg's read on Wu as well since I've been town reading them.

Is there a reason you appear to be against a Wu elim? Because he went from one of your top quorum to a 4th place threat the moment he was even considered as an elim.

I don't really vibe with this version of events.

I'm not against a Wu elim.

Do I think StD will flip red? Maybe. I think it's more likely than not that he will flip green, though. I think it's more likely than not that any of you will flip green, since we have 7 people in this game and only 2 of them are evil and I don't feel especially certain about anyone. I sure would like to flip StD to find out at this point, though, since I don't see any other flip giving us as much or more information. I'm ready to do that shit right now.

I actually disagree that we are learning more right now. I feel like posts like yours are either evidence of a townie getting led further astray by spinning our town wheels, or a wolf creating more distracting information. Either way, I genuinely think it is in town's best interest to go ahead and hammer someone, preferably StD, like, now.

Tbh I'm not vibing with your post either. Calling it my "version of events" is just a loaded accusation meant to discredit me without actually challenging what I said. I'm telling you my perspective and read on the situation, which is inherently subjective and biased regardless of my alignment.

The rest of your post just reads as a thinly veiled threat, and your accusation that I'm either being led astray or a wolf looks really bad considering it was your statements that led us here. If you're town then I highly recommend stepping back and re-evaluating how you're being perceived, because I don't want to 1v1 a townie come tomorrow.

[Roden]

Just went through a thorough readthrough of Wu's posts, and I feel I am going at them a bit too harshly. Looking at a lot of the reactions that they have seem reason able enough to have come from a town Wu (although I definitely don't think scum Wu is off the table). I have TR val, roden, and catboy for a long while because they appear to be approaching the game with a similar thought process of my own, I believe that it would be good to look through their posts to try to make sure that assumption is correct. I also think StD's flip would be important to help that analysis as well, and I think its close to time for that flip.

I don't think its really any more likely them than Wu, but I think the flip is more telling.

VOTE: SavetheDragons

This is E-1.

Sorry Catboi, I think you have a point but I'm pretty sure Meg is just town here and VLA just affected their progression.

If StD is town then he's throwing by staying quiet. He went silent the moment the spotlight slightly veered away from him and was out of hammer range, which is something scum would do if they felt they needed to lay low and let town fight amongst themselves.

Consider this post as intent to hammer.

[Roden]

I disagree that my statements led us here.

I have at no point defended StD's towniness. I have only pushed back against Val's weak reasoning, which is a good thing for town players to do.

You are the one who has conflated these two distinct matters and remains steadfast in your refusal, or frustratingly persistent in your inability, to disentangle them. That conflation is what has led us here, and there is one person who is responsible for it: you. If you are town, please for the love of god use whatever brain power you have to grasp these distinctions.

brain power is the wrong word, sorry i'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk, i'm just struggling to believe that you really think pushing back against Val is the same thing as trying to stop an StD quorum

I'm not really sure how else to get across that pushing back against an accusation that was directed at someone else is a direct defense for that person. This really isn't obtuse logic.

[Roden]

Can I get another opinion on this? Is my perspective unreasonable or am I getting gaslit here?

[Roden]

We might just not see eye to eye on this and whatever, but I really do think that I can (1) maintain that StD is my top quorum pick and (2) hold other players to a high standard of rigor in argumentation, *yes even if they are accusing the person who I too find suspicious* - in fact I would contend that it is *wolfish* to let any argument fly so long as it is directed at the person I would like to see quorumed; we want to be right for the right reasons, as town.

It is wolfish to want to see a particular player quorumed by Any Means Necessary.

It is townish to carefully scrutinize arguments from all players, regarding all players.

This feels LAMIST as fuck but I can't get into why until tomorrow to avoid being anti-town.

[Roden]

Oh. I really don't like this double E-1 at all.

[Roden]

LAMIST?

"look at me I'm so townie". He's accusing you of trying to look town by talking up how you're acting and saying it's townish

In general I prefer if people say what they mean rather than using buzzwords, because such things are an excuse to turn off critical thinking

Yeah sorry, stuff came up yesterday and I couldn't really get into the game enough to go deeper into what I was thinking.

[Roden]

We still have two days, I wanna hear from Meg now that they're at E-1. I trust them more than StD but this got way spicier than I expected and I don't want to throw.

[Roden]

Because StD seems like the obvious choice, but if I was right about him being this game's LHF and he's town, then it really looks like I'm paired with Meg and ELo is going to be hell. But if I vote Meg and they flip town, then I'd be voting someone that I town read and StD goes to ELo.

Shwinn specifically can shade me no matter what I do here. I just want to make sure I vote correctly and don't set myself up as mis-elim bait tomorrow, so both StD and Meg need to case themselves to me.

[Roden]

I think you're town regardless, shrug. I won't hold it against you if you vote StD here and he flips town. I think there's an extremely high likelihood of scum between the two of them no matter what.

Yeah, these don't feel like TvT wagons tbh.

Roden is correct that I generally suspect them. If they hammer scum today, they would drop precipitously in my list of suspects tomorrow. I generally consider a bus relatively unlikely today since the cases were so weak that I think if I was scum I would have just pushed a different target. Especially if I was a more experienced player.

Yeah I figured you did. I gave it more thought last night about your actions and I might've just jumped the gun. Not necessarily saying I'm taking back what I said, but I don't feel as strong about my suspicions on you as I did earlier.

Idk how to feel about the possibility of a bus, but I agree it's at least less likely to happen today, mostly due to what happened with T3 though.

I support catboi’s vote. I like being at double E-1. Let’s have some actual stakes here. There isn’t anything close to an airtight case on Angie right now.

Hey Roden, if you wanna eliminate Meg but don’t wanna be the hammer I’m happy to move my vote to hammer Meg.

Because you think I'm paired with them, right?

If you're trying to gambit on whether or not I'd protect scum!Meg, that kinda puts pressure on me to actually vote them. If you want them gone, then switch your vote. But don't try to influence my vote if you plan to park your vote on the opposing wagon.

[Roden]

I'm just waiting since both wagons' VLAs end tomorrow and I want them both to give one last case. It feels fair that way and I want to be confident in my vote. If that's too long for you or anyone else, anyone is free to switch their vote and hammer.

[Roden]

Also Roden, what "cases" do you want us to present? I honestly don't know what you are looking for here.

I feel like this should be obvious. Why are you town and why is the other wagon scum? Or if you believe both wagons are TvT, then explain why both of you are town and who should be elim'd instead.

[Roden]

This game is baffling me, holy shit.

Yes, I thought Val was Mason. I didn't think he was just soft claiming, he damn near hard claimed since everyone except Shwinn seemed to understand what the elephant in the room was. I didn't even bother asking Meg to claim when they got to put to E-1 yesterday, and I'm certain that's why nobody else did either. Meg should've understood that they needed to claim though, and idk why they didn't.

Val I understand that you were just gambitting now, but the biggest reason StD looked scummy was that it looked like he was about to 1v1 a Mason and then backed off. But now we know you were just trying to brute force push someone out and idk how you expect anyone to believe that was a town action. Why would you gambit something like that unless you were 100% certain StD was scum? And how could you be 100% certain?

I'm not going to auto scum lock you, because Day 1 is proof that town can and will make weird gambits with Mason claims. I just don't understand how the fuck this game had two fake Mason claims and that neither of the real Masons tried to use their role whatsoever.

[Roden]

I refuse to believe you act this way as a VT.

If that is the case, if you can't see why I did that as town in light of my 766 then vote me.

You think I'm scum, vote me. We have an extra day now. I'm going to take - and I suggest everyone else consider this too - that any slot that throws shade at me today, but doesn't follow that up with a vote, as a scum claim; because I think StD is scum, I think it's faily obvious we aren't partnered, and so not flipping one of us today means someone deliberately keeping me alive for the ELO.

We're in MELo, we can't vote freely anymore since a mis-elim means we get endgamed. It should be the opposite of what you're suggesting, since four votes cause an elim and only two votes from town are needed for scum to quick hammer.

Also, it's not impossible for both you and StD to be scum and you 100% know that. If you hard bussed, no one would be likely to suspect you. I'm not saying this is the exact scenario we're in, but it doesn't help town to shoot down any and all suspicion towards you as having scummy intent.

[Roden]

Why would you gambit something like that unless you were 100% certain StD was scum? And how could you be 100% certain?

I

AM

as sure as I can be that StD that is scum, here, Roden - and the longer catboi pretends that he doesn't know the scum play today is to shade me but not vote me, and the longer he shouts "val is scum" without following it through with a vote, the more confident I am catboi is his partner.

Ask yourself, did StD actually back off, or did he just constantly complain I wasn't outlining the case against him in the hope I would back off my soft claim? As I said yesterday, StD continuing to complain I hadn't outlined the case against him, while simulatainously demonstrating he understood I was soft-claiming mason reads to me like scum frustrated it

was

only a softclaim, and wanted a hard claim, so there wasn't any doubts and they could nightkill me knowing nothing could stop them. I wasn't about to fake claim, but I was going to continue to soft since it was very obvious StD thought he found a crumb, and I thought I could very well draw the night kill last night from them.

Like I said then:

I take the continued and repeated attempts by the slots I find most scummy at this point (StD and Shwinn) to continue to attempt to draw my slot in particular into further explanation on my case against StD (and note they are kicking up a fuss specifically against Val not having given a fully fleshed out case, despite StD being scumread and voted by multiple slots) as evidence scum might still have some residual doubts they want to try and resolve before today ends.

The problem here is that if you think the team is StD/Catboi, StD's responses to you yesterday don't necessarily come from scum because Shwinn thought you were being unnecessarily obtuse yesterday as well. That was a whole big that happened, to the point that I accused him of buddying, but now it looks actually valid.

This entire thing turned out to be a gambit now though and I don't see how you could've known StD would flip red. Your push was based almost entirely on you being a Mason but you aren't even a Mason. So if you're town, wtf were you expecting to happen if you were just wrong and StD flipped green? Hell, what if Meg waited until Day 3 to counter claim? Regardless of StD's flip, we always vote you Day 3 in a world where Meg survives and CC's you.

Like, I'm just struggling to understand what you expected to happen the following day.

Is that a SECOND slot suggesting I am the scummiest slot in the game, without following through with a vote?

I didn't even say that? Why don't you expect to look scummy when T3 made a similar play and got voted out for it?

[Roden]

We're in MELo, we can't vote freely anymore since a mis-elim means we get endgamed

No, we are not. Don't buy the crap catboi is selling here; We WOULD have been in MELO if scum killed last night, but there was no-kill; and so there is an extra player (six, not seven, I give you that) that there would have otherwise been, and thus another chance today.

In any case, even if catboi truely beleived we were in MELO, wouldn't that be an even stronger reason to vote the slot you are suddenly sure is scum, and encourage others to do so?

There are 6 players, 2 of them are evil

If we quorum a good player, then there will be 5 players, 2 of whom are evil
Then tonight, the evils will nightkill a good, so there will be 4 players, 2 of whom are evil.

This ends the game, because there will be 2 evils and 2 goods. That is parity. Am I misunderstanding how this game works or are you

We don't even go to the Night phase. We know we don't have any protective roles due to Masons, so a mis-elim is an automatic endgame since nothing can stop the kill.

[Roden]

I honestly don't know what to even think here other than we probably just lose now. We needed to question Val and it's literally impossible to sort his replacement, since they won't be able to know what his thought process was if he was town and will have nothing to work with if they're scum.

[Roden]

Val played

way

differently this game than he did the last game we were in together. It's not enough to meta him but I just don't see town!Val making these kinds of gambits and fake claims. Nobody has quick hammered him yet either, so he's either scum, or StD and/or Shwinn are scum. Or maybe Val is scum and is getting bussed. Either way scum is mechanically guaranteed to be somewhere within those three.

[Roden]

So if we know there's at least one scum within the three current votes, then I think we should be able to narrow down if both scum are in the votes or if one is waiting to hammer.

Wu, can you give us your reads on Catboi and I?

Catboi, you seen to be town reading Wu, but do you still town read me?

I'm still hesitant on Wu, but I do think his suspicion on Shwinn for being eager to hammer has merit. It could be light scum theatre though, so if Wu suddenly hard pushed Shwinn I'd expect it to be a bus. If Wu was paired with StD I wouldn't be too surprised since that then meant he tried to save StD, but I don't have any reason to believe it other than the vote on Meg. Chances of being paired with Val are low since I think they'd just stick to the same wagon Day 2, but they were on opposing wagons. So evidence-wise, if Wu is scum then their most likely partner is Shwinn.

As for Catboi, I've gone back and forth on him, but I feel like we mind melded halfway through Day 2. I can't rule out the possibility he's just scum trying to agree with me to get me to agree with him in return, but I've agreed with him on things even pre-mind meld. I don't really see a Catboi/Shwinn pairing, even when ISO diving there's nothing to really point out a possible pairing. Catboi and StD wouldn't be wild for the same reasons I gave Wu. Catboi almost never gets paired with Val because of how confident he seems to be about Val being scum, and he could've just pushed StD by now to save Val. So, I think Catboi is just town unless he's needlessly trying to bus Val.

With this in mind, logically it only makes sense for Val to be scum if he's getting hard bussed by either StD or Shwinn. And going by what happened Day 2 and Val's reactions today, Val is heavily implicated to be scum. So FMPOV I think the most likely scenarios are that Val is either getting hard bussed here, or both StD and Shwinn are scum buddies trying to mis-elim Val. Otherwise, I'm either wrong about Catboi or Catboi is misreading Wu, but this seems less likely.

[Roden]

The game's kinda grinding to a halt. I don't think anyone's going to replace into Val's slot since he's in such an unfavorable position; having to read the entire game and then defend themself for the actions the previous player made is bad enough, but having to do this in MELo

and

as the most likely pick for elimination regardless of their defense just doesn't sound fun unless someone wants a serious challenge. Because I'm gonna be honest, if we don't decide no elim today then we're likely just gonna vote Val anyway.

This doesn't even account for if anyone else replaces out, which is already being suggested. That'll send us that much further back by making us wait for two replacements for slots that have suspicion on them.

(or not ending it if he turns out to be evil, i guess, but if people wanna spend another week of real life time spinning our wheels and relitigating the minutiae of wtf val was on about without val here i will probably need to request a replacement myself)

Like, I completely get the frustration here, but I want to avoid another replace out. I think Shwinn does bring up a good point though that we're not going to be able to figure out why Val did what he did, no matter who replaces in. Val's replacement won't be able to defend the Mason claim, but it's also not like we're just gonna forget about it, so I'm not sure how we're supposed to be able to sort whoever replaces in. We can talk about it back and forth but we're never going to get a real justification for it. It's just a doomed slot.

Tbh Catboi I might just hammer test you and Wu tomorrow instead. I know you feel less confident about Val now, but I just don't want to believe two different townies would try to gambit fake claiming Mason two days in a row in the same game. It's just fucking wild to think that town!Val would see that blow up in T3's face and the immediately try to follow it up with a slightly softer Mason claim.

[Roden]

Otherwise, I'm open to a StD vote if we've got a case. I agree with Shwinn that I just don't want to wait another week, and if we're all more confident on voting StD over Val instead then fuck it, let's do it then.

[Roden]

Mainly because I don't think Val vs StD is TvT in any universe ever. If it's TvT we actually just deserve to lose if town really did self-destruct three days in a row over multiple fake Mason claims.

[Roden]

Well that's one way somebody replaces in, they don't read the game first lol.

Really bad start btw, you might wanna read the thread because your opening posts just read like a scum claim.

[Roden]

:/

This was probably the worst thing you could've posted after what happened with Val.

Do you at all disagree with my analysis of your slot or how precarious of a situation you're in? It's implied that you do by keeping your vote on me, which is really not the take you should be having right now.

[Roden]

I'm gonna give you a chance because you did just replace in, but either you're reading the room really badly or you're going for a Hail Mary strat as scum. Just letting you know now that trying to random wagon me is not the play.

[Roden]

VOTE: Radical Rat

[Roden]

Yeah, sorry. I thought I was gonna have to bus him Day 2.

[Roden]

I "mind melded" with you Catboi because going by past town games I knew you'd be a threat, and you proved you had pull with town decisions early on. We did get lucky with town imploding though, I'm not even sure why town kept fake claiming Mason or why Meg never claimed.

[Roden]

Oh yeah I was definitely soft bussing. I didn't think hard bussing would get me a win since I just won a scum game doing that, and I logically should be the NK if I push StD since I was mostly a consensus town read as it was.

[Roden]

holy crap i thought i was fucked when i said vanilla townies kept claiming mason lmaoooooooooooooooooooooo

I almost bussed you for it lol.

gg roden you did a great job i'm sorry i was a terrible partner lol

You did good! I think your passive play worked since it made you look like you were too apathetic to be scum. You also made the correct kill Night 1.

I "mind melded" with you Catboi because going by past town games I knew you'd be a threat, and you proved you had pull with town decisions early on. We did get lucky with town imploding though, I'm not even sure why town kept fake claiming Mason or why Meg never claimed.

Meh. I'm a mediocre town player. I don't really function well on my own.

I don't want to seem like I'm diminishing your victory, though, which I realized this post could be taken as. I think you played well. I just chafe at undue praise.

I'm not taking it that way. I do think you're a strong town player, but no one else was active enough to work with you. I was worried you and Val would figure it out in ELo until the Mason gambit happened.

[Roden]

Was the no NK intentional then?

Kind of. I suggested either killing Catboi or going for no kill to keep as many suspects as for possible for endgame, but we didn't come to an agreement in time and defaulted to no kill.

[Roden]

GG, thanks everyone. I hope Val checks in too, because I think I know what he was going for but I had to push him anyway.

Btw Nav, what actually are my scum tells? I'm pretty aware of my playstyle, but I'm not sure which subtleties give me away.

[Roden]

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind. I can definitely see the projection, though I thought I was being careful about TMI. But if it's vibes it might be a tonal thing then, which I feel like is one of my bigger weaknesses in general as scum.