Newbie 2074 | Game Over

[Dannflor]

VOTE: SalsabilFaria

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Val89

[Dannflor]

I would recommend Val89 actually

[Dannflor]

Why?

a player with that level of verbosity and apparent dedication to analysis can spare a few words to at least attempt to get some sort of conversation going on a useful game level

In this case, the amount of words read to me as a nervous cover for rolling scum

[Dannflor]

Why?

a player with that level of verbosity and apparent dedication to analysis can spare a few words to at least attempt to get some sort of conversation going on a useful game level

In this case, the amount of words read to me as a nervous cover for rolling scum

Compared to 3 votes with no initial justifications?

I honestly don’t know what this post is trying to say

[Dannflor]

Val should keep being funny

he should be towny while he's being funny

[Dannflor]

do it ythan, for the memes

[Dannflor]

I'm a VT.

don't do this

also why did you do this

but don't do this

[Dannflor]

To be completely honest, I don't scum read Val89 at all and I just completely made up a reason to scum read him that sounded vaguely plausible enough for people to interact with. No, I did not look at your meta. I was somewhat interested in what your reaction would be if a wagon built off of you for what was frankly just a reason I bullshitted off the top of my head, but I was also interested in the reactions of other people to my vote if a wagon didn't build.

why did I do that? mostly I read like a full page of fluff and I was annoyed and didn't want to keep extending RVS

I think the fact that people were fairly reluctant to vote you leans you town, your personal reaction aside

I had to specifically goad both James and Ythan towards voting you and Ythan only took the bait after a little bit. ClarkBar and Salsabi also came up for specific excuses why they wouldn't vote Val. Honestly, that doesn't tell me as much as I hoped it would. I think in an early RVS stage there is little reason not to join a wagon unless you feel strongly elsewhere because the stakes are so low, so the fact that a fair amount of people came out in soft defense of you reads maybe like at least one person knows you're town and thought it would look bad to hop on the wagon because of me?

For Ythan, I feel like it was a little bit out of character for him to need an extra prod to join the wagon, especially if he genuinely believes he should sheep me. Like he could have just been like "I don't want to discourage funny posts but we'll see where this goes" and then voted. I don't think of ythan as usually that... hesitant? Careful?

I did get a solid town read on cowsloveSushirolls. They didn't respond directly to the wagon but did sort of respond by proposing a towncore including both myself and Val. this shows they are thinking about both our posts and have some internal processes leading them to town read both of us individually. later, they also show they went to the lengths to meta check by BS read, which also points towards town

anyway
VOTE: James

[Dannflor]

you didn't do that to get the game going

why did you actually do it

[Dannflor]

assuming you are town, you have made it easier for mafia to hunt down PRs, and if you are lying broke down any trust you will have with the rest of the town

furthermore, the game was already going, there was stuff to talk about. Why didn't you engage with the rest of the game first?

[Dannflor]

no, I'm not implying that

but it's a better alternative than you claiming for no reason, which is not good even if it "gets the game going"

[Dannflor]

I think StrangeMatter and Leaven are my top two scum reads.

Val and James can be very tentatively town for now

[Dannflor]

There was nothing wrong with what Ythan did and continuing to use it to push suspicions against him is frankly gross, use another line of reasoning please

[Dannflor]

VOTE: strangematter

[Dannflor]

StrangeMatter, I'm going to answer your question with another question.

What opinions do you have about the game not related to theory about when the correct time is to worry about a QH?

For the last several posts all your content has been about this detail that doesn't actually seem to be going anywhere substantial

You're still sitting on an ostensibly RVS vote despite voicing some other suspicions and other wagons popping up

You seem more focused on asking specific questions without really following those questions up with thoughts such that it seems you are posting these questions to post rather than try to detect alignments

and your one seriously espoused read in #160 is awfully fencesitty and seems to be designed to allow you to either hop on the wagon if you need to or have plausible deniability if it flips town

[Dannflor]

townies do outrageously pro-scum things all the time

scum try to look town

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Leaven

[Dannflor]

oh no

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I think you replaced into a scum slot :/

[Dannflor]

GE + SM ?

[Dannflor]

Gamma what are your scum reads

[Dannflor]

VOTE: gamma emerald

[Dannflor]

You're an easy target?

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE: GE

[Dannflor]

Gamma is townier than I remembered last I looked at this game

I think Ythan's scum equity has gone up

Sushi is my only confident town read rnow. I guess Val is kinda up there but he is worrying me with the ythan tunnel

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Strange Matter

[Dannflor]

Strange Matter is doing the same thing they're doing Day 1 which is ask a lot of questions, stay on the sidelines, and try to look towny through that

However, I feel there isn't any actual follow up to their questions

I don't think Leaven's #600 makes much sense to write from a scum perspective but on a surface level it does appear to be fencesitty and scummy. I'm not sure I like SM jumping on that and being evasive about explaining why.

I'd rather go here than either of the two leading wagons which I think both have some town equity

[Dannflor]

Why is Strange a town read?

[Dannflor]

the competing wagons should really be like SM and leaven right now

not this GE/Ythan crap

[Dannflor]

[sushirolls, val]
[gamma]
[ythan]
[leaven]
[strange matter]

[Dannflor]

Man, I'm not super hot on Leaven as scum.

Why do you think SM is town, Gamma?

[Dannflor]

I suddenly get a really bad feeling looking at those Gamma/SM interactions

[Dannflor]

Why do I feel like you both have each other as town without ever really stating reasons why

why does it feel like your questions to each other are so devoid of actual sorting

ahhhhhhhhhhhh can someone else please look at this im gonna start conf biasing but it's giving me a sick feeling

[Dannflor]

Is there anyone not strongly town reading sushi/Val yet? Do I need to town case those for anyone?

I feel like my pool of possible scum is down to leaven/ythan/GE/SM

Out of those four I've been really liking leaven's recent posting

Ythan has been absent so it makes sense he'd be a wagon regardless of his alignment, could be scum I suppose but I don't think there's super strong evidence either way

[Dannflor]

Also, I wasn’t here to even be able to stop them from hammering themselves, which just makes me angry to think about.

oh hello I missed this line

You must be very angry that you couldn't have been here to read Salsabil's mind and someone stop her from self-hammering before she did so?

this feels like a line that comes from scum trying to look good not someone genuinely frustrated or thinking about the situation

[Dannflor]

idk just look at all the times Gamma and SM ask each other questions / quote each other but never really seem to follow it up with anything substantial?

Gamma has SM as "just town" and never really gives a reason

SM hasn't really stated a read on Gamma as far as I can tell but prefers Ythan in the Gamma/Ythan dichotomy

idk it gives me the heebiejeebies

[Dannflor]

I don't understand how you think you could have possibly stopped what happened from happening

[Dannflor]

ah right my bad

[Dannflor]

ythan where are you

[Dannflor]

VOTE: gamma

[Dannflor]

unvote immediately and kill gamma

we don't need more discussion this phase

[Dannflor]

leaven probably dies tonight which leaves:

StrangeMatter
Val890
cowsloveSushirolls
Ythan

as possible Gamma partners

[Dannflor]

I think we can go through and figure out which pairs are most likely tomorrow

I'm assuming no counter claim but that's mostly because this is just confirming my read on Leaven

[Dannflor]

I think you played it fine Leaven, especially considering it looked like Gamma might be taking the heat this phase

[Dannflor]

Gun to head

Gamma's partner is either Val or SM. Leaven, on the off chance we have a doc I would recommend you target one of those two tonight

[Dannflor]

I'm sorry if I have made this game less enjoyable for you SM

[Dannflor]

Gamma has 3 votes, it takes 4 to eliminate him

[Dannflor]

And speaking of which, Dannflor you've been pushing me as a scumread since day 1 and at this point I'd like to have Leaven confirm that you're completely wrong and wasted so much time focusing on my slot.

I may very well be wrong on you, I think Gamma/Val has good merit as a team

I would not call it a waste of time though

I am sorry if it felt like I wasn't engaging you properly or if I have made your experience in this game any less pleasant

[Dannflor]

yeah hang on and wait

sorry for my hastiness before I was mostly just trying to squash any "well what if leaven is lying" paranoias without proper proof

[Dannflor]

summary:

leaven claimed cop with guilty on gamma

gamma just self hammered

[Dannflor]

sorry for my hastiness before I was mostly just trying to squash any "well what if leaven is lying" paranoias without proper proof

Sure you weren't TMI'ing that you knew the Gamma guilty was legit, and there would be no CC?

I know you've been very quick to quickly spash that you think one of me (previously one of your highest townreads) and SM look good for gammas partner, but for myself, its actually your (dannflor) interactions with the slot that look the worst to me.

I wanted to get that out there now before the lock.

pretty sure you just scum claimed in this post

[Dannflor]

no I'll wait until tomorrow

if I die I die

[Dannflor]

stop with this illusion that this setup is anything except C1. leaven's 100% dying tonight

the james nightkill makes absolutely zero sense if it's not C1. you can't PR read that guy

You got to that quickly for just showing up to this cop claim.

weird post to make

why would you not get to this quickly

[Dannflor]

... why would you not just already know that based off of playing day one ythan

[Dannflor]

what i mean is, I don't think sushi just suddenly took this time to form that opinion, it was an opinion they already held

[Dannflor]

okay everyone really needs to stop talking now

[Dannflor]

every post you make about the setup gives scum more information in the case that it's not c1

[Dannflor]

holy shit val think about your posts if you're town

what possible reason could speculating about the setup be bad considering scum know what world we're in?

[Dannflor]

it actually might just be ythan here but I'll deal with that tomorrow

[Dannflor]

no...

there's an answer

that was not a rhetorical question

[Dannflor]

I'm around, but waiting to see what Val's immediate thoughts are what they wanna do today

Ythan, do you have an immediate gut scum read coming into the day? or are you pretty unsure

[Dannflor]

why did val go up so much for you?

[Dannflor]

no I'll wait until tomorrow

if I die I die

Not forgetting this.

I will explain this but I'm tentatively town reading Val again

[Dannflor]

We have an advantage if the doctor survives tonight in that the scum will have to fake counter claim doctor, but you're trying to out the doctor today which would mean they can't possibly survive the night.

And if the doctor doesn't survive, what then?

then we're in the same situation as we would be if the doctor claimed today?

[Dannflor]

Val, did you get what I was talking about EoD there?

[Dannflor]

What town reason would there be for Dann withholding until I come online?

it really feels like you're only thinking about things one dimensionally sometimes

I think I might be wrong on you

I need to see if you've also been thinking about things through the night and if so where those thoughts have led you

[Dannflor]

SM, what are your reads right now?

[Dannflor]

if you had to choose one between me and val right now with no further discusison, who would it be and why?

[Dannflor]

Okay, I'll spell it out. It is bad to discuss what setup we are most likely in because it gives scum more information to doctor-hunt with in the event we're in A1. Yes, if we are in A1, then scum knew that was the case the instant that Leaven claimed. However, they would not know who the doctor is. Continuing to be like "I think it's more likely we're in C1," or talking about the likelihood of a doctor *at all* only benefits scum. Yes, you can introduce WIFOM to the equation but the more information you introduce the easier it will be for mafia to find the doctor if there is one. Frankly, I do not trust people to not slip and essentially claim that they aren't doctor, thus narrowing the pool scum can shoot in. I don't trust that players can successfully lie or seem ambiguous about whether or not they aren't.

There is really no benefit to discussing the likelihood of a doctor as far as I can see, it only serves to give scum more info and generates nothing for town. Yes, scum know the setup. They don't know who the doctor is, if there is one.

This is why I was so upset at Val and pretty much everyone at the end of last day. No one seemed to realize it and there seemed to be a host of people practically claiming they weren't a doctor. Of course, it doesn't matter if we're in C1. And I think all of scum's night kills tend to point towards C1 (ugh I'm doing the thing I warned against), but it's just incorrect to play as if that were absolutely the case. Anyway, if there is a doctor, they should claim when they get to e-1 and no sooner.

I was really surprised Ythan hadn't already put this together,.

sorry for my hastiness before I was mostly just trying to squash any "well what if leaven is lying" paranoias without proper proof

Sure you weren't TMI'ing that you knew the Gamma guilty was legit, and there would be no CC?

I know you've been very quick to quickly spash that you think one of me (previously one of your highest townreads) and SM look good for gammas partner, but for myself, its actually your (dannflor) interactions with the slot that look the worst to me.

I wanted to get that out there now before the lock.

I thought this post was scummy originally because it seemed to put no thought into which world we are actually in. In fact, Val here seems to assume there isn't another town PR in the game. Since the only people who know the setup for sure are scum, I thought Val might have been slipping here. I think my interactions with Gamma are pretty silly if I were partners with him, but that aside, the real kicker is what if I was the doctor? I thought that to accuse me of TMI'ing without first considering that there's a possible town PR that might also behave similarly showed that Val knew we were in C1 instead of A1. Which would, uh, make him scum

but since then I've been thinking about it and I think it's more likely I overreacted to this in the heat of the moment. especially considering I was so annoyed for not getting why repeatedly talking about a doctor gave more info to scum. In the end, I think scum would want to be a lot more deliberate about being careful whether they showcase knowledge of the setup or not, *especially* with so many people conjecturing about the setup. right? Val seems pretty selfaware too, so I think the sudden jump to assuming I was TMI'ing rather than just having a PR read on Leaven, or being the possible doctor, or not wanting people to give away too much information is a sign of excited town rather than scum showcasing his knowledge of the setup

also ythan didn't even get why I was saying to shut up, no one did really. sushi wouldn't stop talking about it either so like. I guess I was alone in wanting that and not realizing that isn't really scummy either

[Dannflor]

generally I think Val's push of ythan and pretty much the way he's approached every slot this game has been from an excitable town "gotcha" standpoint rather than informed scum, I actually think scum in his position would be a lot more careful especially yesterday

[Dannflor]

Now, I am less sure on ythan. However, my gut pretty much the whole game has also told me ythan is town.

I could be wrong there. I think it sucks that he had so much inactivity in the middle of the game. but generally I think his reactions have been towny?

Let's look at Gamma now. Gamma enters the game buddying up to Val and suspecting Ythan. As a very general rule, scum don't really want to do either of those with their buddies coming into the game, unless their buddies are already in a particularly bad or good spot. As of Gamma's entrance, I don't believe enough game content had been generated to really put Val or Ythan in particularly good or bad spots.

Gamma continues to push Ythan in #412, #418, #423, #427, #431, and #444. It's a pretty hard push all things considered. Ythan is not a bad player. His wagon had melted before Gamma had replaced in. I doubt Gamma would have felt the need to bus this hard coming into the game. Now, it's not an impossibility that they could be partners. I have some lingering doubt because Gamma never actually voted ythan, but I find it unlikely.

It's also usually unlikely for scum to vote one after another on a miselimination. Again, not impossible. But scum, whether intentionally or unintentionally, usually try to spread out and not concentrate on a single wagon.

[Dannflor]

okay actually I wrote that post thinking that I was going to conclude that I still think SM is scum... but I'm starting to have doubts. I'm starting to think that maybe Gamma's read of SM was a TMI town read?

Just going to get the backlash to the comment out the way:
UNVOTE: ClarkBar
VOTE: JamesTheNames

UNVOTE: StrangeMatter

VOTE: JamesTheNames

I'd like you to say more about the topic other than just showing "this is a really bad move, and this is the reason I'm going to vote him."

first good post of the game I think

@cowsloveSushirolls

when people act familiar with me when I'm not familiar with them, it makes me feel awkward, like I'm supposed to remember them but I don't
if you were to specify how you know me (or if that was just general excitement) I'd be chill

Assuming I'm wrong about this, it'll look absolutely bad that I said that.

It's probably a town thing to say, but why would you cut the legs off of your own stance here?

@Dannflor can you please explain why you scumread both me and Leaven? I saw your post but you never really said why.

I myself am surprised by it because y'all were my first two TRs
but I also don't know whether I should ACTUALLY be surprised given recent experience with Dann

VOTE: Leaven
I still think SM is probably town so if we're moving to SM/Leaven as dueling wagons I'd prefer leaven
PEdit: apparently y'all think I was voting Leaven already, k

Man, I'm not super hot on Leaven as scum.

Why do you think SM is town, Gamma?

Eh there’s some

vibes

mostly
But I also think they’ve been kinda solvy in a way that feels genuine, even though I feel like their overall presence is kinda low

these posts all feel super... brazen? like if I were Gamma with SM as a partner, someone who isn't too town read and not too scum read, but has a decent amount of suspicion on them and is likely to come under a lot of pressure sooner rather than later... would I be interacting/town reading them like this? probably not

scum tend to like to do this thing where they get overconfident and don't elaborate as much on reasoning when they *know* they're right. gamma never gave many reasons for SM town beyond *vibes*. that looks bad if SM flips scum. I think a Gamma/SM team expects SM to flip first if either of them do. but if SM is town, gamma can gets a little cred from vibe reading SM as town. continuing to do this even as wagons shifted to leaven/SM seems... very un partnery imo

from my experience with scum!Gamma, he's a lot more likely to bus in general

[Dannflor]

Right now I think it's between you and Val at this point. The only thing that I can roughly say why I don't want to eliminate Ythan is from the Salsa wagon day one. This is because to me, the only slots left on it are me and Ythan, and Gamma flipped red. I don't think the other scum would end up being also on this if scum and town eliminated most people on that wagon at this point.

this is a salient point

I wish it applied to SM more but it's kind of hard to since I feel like their vote on the wagon didn't really count

still, I do think it is a solid point for town!ythan

[Dannflor]

Val89 I have as town because if he’s scum with Ythan that IMO requires some weird play by the both of them.

huh, gamma was less buddy buddy with Val than I thought

he encouraged Val's Ythan push but not much else

in fact this post was the closest I can find to a stated read on Val??

[Dannflor]

So Val, are you 100 percent ruling out Gamma as scum here?

I'm not 100 percent on any of my reads, but I think Gamma is town here, and I've seen no case from anyone that's made me reconsider so far.

I wasn't on the salsa wagon, but that is because it happened so fast and was done and dusted while I was offline, so I didn't get a chance to evaluate if I considered it to have merit. Looking back, though, I think what was presented against Salsa was a reasonable case for that stage of the game, and while I felt Ythan was scummier, I can see why town!Gamma casts that vote. I don't think anyone was expecting it to result in a self hammer as quick as it did, and the only thing I find really suspicious about how that wagon went was Ythan putting her in hammer range without announcing it.

Ultimately, I think the if you accept Sala was the 'easy' mislim yesterday, with her flipping Town, the makes Gamma the easy mislim today, if you were scum trying to chain one into another, and I find the reasons Gamma gave yesterday for voting Salsa more compelling, even knowing the flip, than I do "well, he pushed a mislim wagon" in isolation, and I'm starting to consider Leaven more likley scum for pushing that on that basis.

I'm still much more sure Ythan is flipping red than anyone else at this point though. I thought he was scummy as hell yesterday, the unannounced E-1 was another ping, and then he has spent the day straight up lurking.

and on the flip side, this is more of the type of town read I would expect from a scum partner. lots of reasoning and detail

also I'm highlighting this last line because it seems to have completely disappeared from Val's recent posts? I don't see much progression from him on Ythan but Val immediately turns on me as soon as I start to suspect him, it almost feels like a change out of necessity than a natural one?

val can you help me understand where your reads of me and ythan lie and who you think is more likely to be scum

did ythan do something remarkably towny or are you just that sure I'm scum after yesterday

[Dannflor]

okay Im leaning back towards val as scum lol

gonna sleep on it

be back in the morning

[Dannflor]

Val, what about my posts makes you think I could possibly push ythan now

Even if you suddenly pivoted

Did you even read

[Dannflor]

Like holy fucking shit if you’re town please approach my posts with an ounce of good faith

[Dannflor]

The question is not to see if you are still willing to vote ythan or whatever insane reason you just made up

The question is to see what your thought process is and the progression that took you where you are now

Like please, just assume you could maybe be wrong on me, because I’d like to have the chance to not be wrong on you

[Dannflor]

meh it honestly doesn't make too much of a difference if the doctor claims today either way if we eliminate wrong today we end up in an F3 with one confirmed town and a 50/50 shot of hitting scum

[Dannflor]

Call it one-dimensional thinking if want, but I can't see this as a natural progression at all. To answer your question, SM, what I ment by 'withholding' is that Dann's entrance today with the 'I'm not going to say what I am thinking until Val says what he is thinking', and the play we have seen today looks an awful lot like Danns reads and pushes are predicated much more on who thinks he might be able to muster votes against, and who might still be townreading him and thus a candidate to keep alive if a scum!Dann makes it to ELO, than it does who he actually thinks is scummy; and thus he holds stuff back or flip-flops until he gets the info he needs to read the room.

this feels awfully un-self-aware of me doesn't it?

I mean I can tell you that I would never play like this is as scum but you wouldn't believe me. Do you seriously think I would play like this as scum?

why as scum would ythan town reading you make me town read you, and then SM saying you are in their pool make me scum read you again

like, you would think as scum I would just stick with the SM scum read right

or maybe not town case ythan since both SM and you have suspected Ythan heavily before this game?

look I'm not set on you being scum yet, hence why I'm not voting you. but when you do this thing where it seems like you're not considering any other possibility other than the fact that your tunnel is scum, it makes it very hard to figure out whether your thought process is natural or not. I thought it was towny with ythan but emotions make it a lot harder to see when you're on the receiving end of it

[Dannflor]

Translation: I really need an answer to that question, Val. Might I be able to convince you to vote Ythan today after all, since you obviously thought they were scum at some point?

like, gah, where on earth did I indicate I would be pushing ythan today, or even wanted to

it feels like you're going into my posts already assuming I'm scum or wanting to be scum rather than genuinely curious about my alignment

the problem is I know town players who play like this

[Dannflor]

1. The two others in this wagon, (Ythan, Gamma) are scum, and pushed it to waste time over day 1. More leaning towards scum being Ythan here.

I have no regrets if he flips green. I’d rather eliminate this now than let him stay, though.

VOTE: Ythan

these are the main posts I keep coming back to that make me think the scum could be StrangeMatter

[Dannflor]

the "I have no regrets if he flips green" feels a little like setting up for Ythan to flip green

[Dannflor]

also btw, the reason I asked SM about his reads was not to fucking "test the waters" about who might be open to vote who

it was because upon scrolling through SM's ISO I realize they had very rarely given any sort of hard reads or stances on anyone this game

The main other read I found was a town read on James

otherwise #818 is the most extensive StrangeMatter has gotten on their reads.

[Dannflor]

does the fact that both val and SM were pushing ythan at one point make ythan more likely to be green?

[Dannflor]

And speaking of which, Dannflor you've been pushing me as a scumread since day 1 and at this point I'd like to have Leaven confirm that you're completely wrong and wasted so much time focusing on my slot.

I town read this initially

but now I'm realizing with it all but confirmed that the setup is A1, that scum!StrangeMatter would've known that Leaven wouldn't get any more results as soon as they claimed

so this is not a reason to town read SM

[Dannflor]

VOTE: SM

yes i know waffle waffle fencesitty fencesitty testing the waters blah blah blah

[Dannflor]

yes yes

[Dannflor]

would it help if i said i was in the shower thinking about this game and was gonna come back and vote SM before I even saw leaven's posts?

i know it won;t, but that's what happened

[Dannflor]

I know and I’m implying you need to clean your glasses

[Dannflor]

leaven probably dies tonight which leaves:

StrangeMatter
Val890
cowsloveSushirolls
Ythan

as possible Gamma partners

Speaking of subminal; anyone ever figured out what in the hell this post was? That is basically saying in a roundabout way "eveyone but me can be gamma's partner", right?

it was me thinking out loud and trying to partner hunt

you'll notice i continued my train of thought by eliminating cowslovesushi as a gamma partner and saying ythan was less likely as a partner

[Dannflor]

Yeah it’s just SM

[Dannflor]

Nah, I'm leaning Val84.

Why

[Dannflor]

I mean why were you leaning Val in the first place

Why is SM town?

[Dannflor]

Huh

[Dannflor]

I want to know his reasoning because it might help inform my own reasoning

Having a conf-town’s thoughts are valuable information, no?

[Dannflor]

can someone who isn't me talk through their read on someone who isn't me

like, pick a town read, why are you town reading that person?

[Dannflor]

I guess I'll just say now that I'm the doctor.

I had attempted to play somewhat on the scummy side of things the first couple days so as to avoid the NK but I guess I went too far

[Dannflor]

Now can someone explain to me the reasons they town read SM

[Dannflor]

Idk if anyone can confirm this playstyle of voting and unvoting and re-voting without declaring rationale as something Dann does when town as well.

I do this as town even when I'm not a PR

I'll usually answer if someone asks or I'll explain voluntarily later

but I have my own thought process about the game outside of my posts and I don't always explain my shifts in thread

[Dannflor]

I thought maybe strongly hinting towards Val that I was the doctor and becoming a lot more transparent with my thoughts today and trying to solve with people would townspew me but no one wanted to properly engage with me

[Dannflor]

I will say while I still think it's SM here I dislike the fact that Val has completely dismissed and otherwise not engaged with my case for town!ythan, so I would look there over ythan in case SM flips town

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

no hammer yet

no rush

[Dannflor]

Dannflor should also be one to know that, if there is a doctor to save Leaven, that puts us in A1, and the chance of Leaven actually having a result tomorrow is approximately zero, so that post about "if there is a doc, these are good targets for Leaven" feels performative.

and yes this was performative mostly to hide the fact I was the doctor

[Dannflor]

I'll take another look at ythan when I get home today, it's possible I have a blind spot there

[Dannflor]

I also tend to think interactions with Gamma make ythan + Gamma fairly unlikely, but a second opinion on that would be great

[Dannflor]

yeah from my perspective it is between val and SM

I kinda went over all my arguments for both already this phase

[Dannflor]

I want Strange to post

[Dannflor]

hey so ive had time to reset and think about the game away from a lot of my more conf-biased thoughts on the game

so i know this may sound ridiculous given everything I've said up to this point

but I actually think ythan is scum now

[Dannflor]

mostly I'm freaked on a reread of Gamma's slot by how he constantly has ythan as his 2nd scumspect but never once votes ythan, even when ythan becomes a competing wagon d2

likewise I feel like a lot of gamma's content is pushing or shading ythan but I don't feel ythan that you ever really gave a read on gamma or were trying to solve him? even when you guys were competing wagons it seemed like you didn't really care about solving his slot, it was only when leaven became the leading wagon that you got more engaged

sorry busy right now but there's some other stuff I'll outline later, that's the main thing though

also @Leaven

the best way for us to handle this is to decide together the one slot we think is most likely to be town, then we just eliminate the other two

[Dannflor]

Ive only flipped a half dozen times but warming up to ythan then SM. Does scum!val defend gamma the way he did yesterday knowing he would flip red?

I am also warming up to Val as my most confident townie here

[Dannflor]

I'm on the fence tho about SM and Ythan

I think SM has been generally scummy but Gamma's read on SM still bugs me

Leaven you've been generally hesitant to go after SM, is there something you town read there?

[Dannflor]

well it bugs me because it doesn't read like a partnery read

he just repeatedly says he has good *vibes* on you, which in my experience tends to read more like he's scum that *knows* you're town and doesn't have to justify it because of that info

[Dannflor]

and that would point towards you being town if I put stock in that

[Dannflor]

VOTE: StrangeMatter

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

val why did you opt for self-voting over trying to show that you are town?

[Dannflor]

hahahahahaherfddsafdsfsddfgvdf

[Dannflor]

okay I think I know where I'm voting

[Dannflor]

okay this is a very tough decision to make

in the end, Val, I feel like you were never genuinely curious about my alignment when you were pushing me, it felt like you were just trying to assemble all the scummy pieces of my play to push me regardless of what I said. on the other hand, I feel like ythan has felt overall a little more curious when it comes to his reads, I'm just thinking about how much his reads wavered of you and me and how he seemed genuinely interested in the different sides of our 1v1. I also feel like ythan has done less direct "setting up" of this day phase. whereas your posting around your self-vote and the Leaven NK seem to point towards you trying to make as favorable a situation for yourself come this phase.

I also think it's ultimately more likely that Gamma's partner is someone he basically never directly interacted with except for vague support than someone he had as his main suspect for most of the game. especially since the other scum is the roleblocker. i guess you started the game voting ClarkBar but then you never interacted with that slot afterwards.

I could very well be wrong, this is really hard and I feel like you're both hard slots to read. apologies if I am wrong but I don't think I'm gonna get any further by thinking on this more.

VOTE: val89

[Dannflor]

sorry town, I am both bad in F3s and bad at playing PRs

Well played to mafia

Thanks for missing nahdia

[Dannflor]

Modding*

[Dannflor]

wp ythan

ya got me pocketed

[Dannflor]

ill be honest I was lying out of my ass when I said I knew who I was gonna vote coming into F3

I had no idea and was going back and forth up through hitting submit

I hate f3s