Open 821 | Fall With Your Friends | Endgame

[Infinity 324]

Hiiiiiii

[Infinity 324]

Wow they really hate me don't they

I think prism is town

[Infinity 324]

I wanna live until endgame and fall with kitty, I will probably confidently TR him by then and he'll likely be convinced I'm out of my scumrange by that point

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Dann what are your reads

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@prism

If you're scum I'd expect you to be a bit more directed/setting up an agenda than you were here. Of course then you starting posting things that fit with an agenda a bit better but /shrug

I'm irrationally biased towards townreading you based off early posts after forest fire

PEdit: that feels like a scumpost from dann idk why

[Infinity 324]

My issue with it is that there were no agressive "towny antics", just annoyance at Hectic/Ydrasse. There are limits to how much control I have over a game regardless of alignment.

Well there weren't towny antics but there were meandering solviness which is similar enough in my head.

To me you're focused and organized as scum but as town you let yourself flow a little more, I don't know if that's true, but it felt natural enough to me.

[Infinity 324]

Murder if you want we could abandon the whole endgaming thing and trust fall right now

I'm half joking

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how murdercat has reads this early points towards scum.

How about meeee

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Oh but I have reads too

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1. who are the top 4 people who you won't be trusting?
2. who are the scum team?
3. who do you predict would be trusting who?

I could answer these questions if I wanted to (though I'd be tentative on 2/3) but it doesn't matter much, I have murder as basically locktown anyway.

[Infinity 324]

1. Catboi, dann, inutile, prism
2. Catboi/Dann
3. Me/murder, monkey/prism

@dann I don't think murder has a particularly strong scumgame, and his solving energy is very genuine. I've seen it a few times before from him

PEdit: hmm I think I'm approaching this game the same way but expressing myself differently maybe. I don't feel the need to be as open with reads atm for whatever reason.

I get that I don't need to be paired off to win, but why wouldn't I want to be? I think murder can read me well enough that that can happen, and also I'm probably gonna be more towny this game than usual.

PEdit: murder doesn't want to.

[Infinity 324]

what solving has he done this game? this feels like a tone read but I feel like tone reads need a lot more time to develop before they approach anywhere near lock-levels

Ehh that really depends

I'm not sure how to answer "what solving has he done", it's just all his posts? Every time someone posts something his gears are reflexively turning to update his reads based on that (look a when he townread prism for example)

[Infinity 324]

Seeing as inutile hasn't posted, everyone else done something to move above null for you? IDK, feels premature, even though I don't think it's scummy.

I could add Dann in maybe for that last post. Otherwise yes

I think I made up a murder townread on prism but 167 is a good example of what I'm talking about.

[Infinity 324]

1. Catboi, dann, inutile, prism
2. Catboi/Dann
3. Me/murder, monkey/prism

let's move on to the next step and discuss how you came up with these reads, except for the pairing which obviously is from recent events

I townread you and s_s for reasons I'm having a hard time explaining and can maybe get back to later. One think I like from you is the followup here--it would show more of an agenda if you only cared about murder having quick reads and you could've made an excuse not to question me about this but you're still doing it. Prism is on the list cause ~paranoia~

I've talked about my read on murder so that leaves the 4 I mentioned.

I'm somewhat convinced by prism's point on catboi that he wouldn't hard townread prism so early as town and he felt locked in to say that he hard townread prism by their question. I don't even know if this was prism's point but it's mine.

Dann feels like scum having a hard time getting his footing. As town I think there's a decent chance he takes it more slow, but I feel like he's trying to look active here.

If that doesn't make sense then gut.

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I'll probably trust test murder tomorrow if that would be helpful for people just in case my confidence in him comes from sleep deprivation but I don't think so.

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Infinity is not

What do you mean by this? Sure it's fine if I don't trust fall, it's just...I think murder will townread me so I think I can trust fall. I don't see how I can or can not "allow" for a scenario where I don't trust fall because it's mostly just up to murder (and everyone else).

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What accommodations are there to make? I'm not going to tell other people who to trust fall with specifically, my obligation in the scenario where I'm not trust falling is to give reads and...I'm doing that

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Sure, I don't really know why you think I would've have given the reads if not interrogated

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Sure, I don't really know why you think I would've have given the reads if not interrogated

wouldn't have*

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I get it, you're still scum though sorry

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If I were to pick out people at this table with scary scumgames I would

not

be pointing to myself.

You don't give yourself enough credit imo

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You

are you just looking for one town?

I gave reads on everyone

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My approach is to get reads I feel good about on everyone and try to leave with my strongest townread

I think HEM's paranoia is towny

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Dannflor do you remember the last time we played

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You tried to pocket me the same way you're doing here :)

Shiki (inutile) could be scum

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Infinity, would you leave with me?

Yes probably.

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like infinity feels like she is playing a different game from the one she is saying she is playing, but the narrow thing very disadvantageous for scum if it does not go well, like eggs/basket right

Prism mentioned a similar thing, would it help if I was a bit more proactive in communicating my reads?

I was proactive about prism early as well as my dann read, but I guess there are some reads which I'm either struggling to articulate or get a handle on, and it should get better as the game goes on.

@monkey I'm not gonna trust anyone until tomorrow when I have a bit more time to think about the game/am hopefully less tired

[Infinity 324]

Just do it with me now i thought im town

The standard for me trust falling with someone without having more time to think is higher than just generic townread.

There's also a question of whether I want to trust fall with only murdercat cause there could be a risk of him getting left behind, but that's a bit arrogant.

[Infinity 324]

hm, it just feels like there is a disconnect between like, i want to solve the game, but also i am sure of this and this is what i will do, and it makes it feel like everything else is throwaway

but yeah time maybe

Fair, I also want to come up with reads for other people to refer to if they want, also I'm not 100% I want to leave with murder yet only 90% or so

[Infinity 324]

can you elaborate more on what exactly I've done and what the similarities are

I feel like I just stated a town read on you

@infinity

I don't think it's super likely that my reason for TRing murder has any weight for town!you, so that's part of it, then you quoted my post about monkey which is a small thing but pinged me as similar to noraaland a bit (mindmelding was one of the main reasons you listed for TRing me there). The way you're excited about the townread on me feels similar to noraaland and a bit fake I guess.

I feel a bit bad because this reasoning almost certainly won't make sense to you, but that's what it is.

[Infinity 324]

what solving has he done this game? this feels like a tone read but I feel like tone reads need a lot more time to develop before they approach anywhere near lock-levels

Ehh that really depends

I'm not sure how to answer "what solving has he done", it's just all his posts? Every time someone posts something his gears are reflexively turning to update his reads based on that (look a when he townread prism for example)

Seeing as inutile hasn't posted, everyone else done something to move above null for you? IDK, feels premature, even though I don't think it's scummy.

I could add Dann in maybe for that last post. Otherwise yes

I think I made up a murder townread on prism but 167 is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Here's my murder read.

I'm open to falling with people other than murder. If you have a good reason why you really want to pair with me then I'd only refuse if I really believed murder would not fall with anyone else.

I want to see the gamestate develop before I fall with anyone is what I'm trying to say.

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was the main thing that got me rethinking my read

This is what I meant by holding weight for you

[Infinity 324]

It's more than that but I'm not sure if I can express what more to it there is.

Besides like

He has a solving energy this game that I haven't seen from scum!him and have seen quite a few times from town!him

PEdit: hmm I don't think you need to be a bad player to not be able to replicate solving energy from your town play.

[Infinity 324]

Wow and thats enough for you to locktown him

Yeah, replicating it would require getting into a towny mindset pretty deeply and in a short timeframe, and I don't think murder has the capacity to do that.

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i mean, i have good reason if you are town

What's the reason?

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i am town?

Oh I thought you meant a reason to pair with monkey.

The reason has to make sense from my pov of course.

[Infinity 324]

Catboi should I be townreading you?

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To me the way catboi is approaching prism is a bit disappointed or wanting prism to townread him or something, but prism is confident catboi is still within his scumrange. Past games seem to have an effect on the way catboi is approaching that, but still, I think a townier approach might be "you'll get there eventually". Still possible for town!catboi to feel this way but yeah.

Maybe a better question would've been "do you think prism should be townreading you" but I think catboi answered that too

[Infinity 324]

Scumreading me must be pretty fun huh

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Someone tell me how to not be scumread

[Infinity 324]

The fun part of this setup is that it doesn't matter at all

I see you as a more cooperative player than that but maybe I'm wrong

[Infinity 324]

the people here are too conservative with their trusts. i would like everyone to start popping those trusts when they come to the conclusion is someone is "locktown" and that "you'll never change your mind" — even changing your entire strategies just to set both of you up to trust as a surething.

pop those trusts so we can start getting actual reads

I don't really understand why I would do this. Yes trusting might lead to good reads, but so will waiting. The longer I wait, the harder it becomes for scum to keep up appearances depending on who it is and the more data I can use to sort people. Even if I was 100% on someone being town, I may want to wait just in case there's someone else I'm confident is town that might not get paired otherwise.

[Infinity 324]

Thanks :)

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I still just doubt S_S encourages me/HEM quickly yesterday if HEM is town, so pairing them off is likely safe as well.

Do you think s_s would think he has any influence on whether you two actually pair?

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I think shiki is town tbh

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I guess really catboi should do it first, though I can't imagine scum-Prism ever takes that.

Yes. catboi should do it to Prism. That's the plan. We don't start with townreads trusting other townreads. we should start with scumread trusting townread.

This probably doesn't help us much because scum can just refuse in this scenario but ok.

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Would it benefit anyone if I trusted monkey here? I don't see the advantage, but I'd be comfortable doing that if it was useful.

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Monkey has voiced wanting people to trust earlier, and there might be a reason why scum!monkey would accept that I'm not thinking of, which would give us useful info.

[Infinity 324]

I scumread dann but yeah pushing him doesn't get us that far and also I'm observing the slot atm.

I'm not quite sure why that explanation leads to you revisit me. As scum I'd only suggest to trust monkey if I had a town motivation for doing so. Though, it makes little sense to revisit me if you're scum here

[Infinity 324]

The idea that scum!me would have a town motivation in my head for doing something but not be able to

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The idea that scum!me would have a town motivation in my head for doing something but not be able to say it quickly seems unlikely to me but maybe I'm wrong

Oops

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Not really, he's probably gonna leave with a more townread player otherwise.

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Why?

Tbh I townread monkey more than you at this point

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To me it's the how his emotion is integrated with his solving and reads

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Looking back at it, I feel like your scumread on him based on a couple early thing doesn't make a ton of sense given how obviously different (townier) he is from forest fire

PEdit: what does that mean?

[Infinity 324]

It's hard for me to tell the difference between town who is approaching the game subtly and scum who doesn't have much to say but I'm leaning towards the first one

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Catboi/Dann (though I haven't looked at interactions)

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Still don't see the benefit to proposing as a widely scumread player, scum!prism won't accept

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Except she wasn't

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Again, is there something I'm missing? It seems suboptimal to me for scum to accept a trust fall with a scummier player if they could trust fall with a townier player later to get them out of the pool. Therefore, it's not a clear.

[Infinity 324]

Not sure I understand

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if we're always setting it up that scummiest players would trust towniest players, then they can't strategize around taking the towniest people with them.

I see, I don't know why this is a good strategy though? By definition, the scummier players are more likely to be scum, so the townier players are gonna get paired with scum more often this way.

[Infinity 324]

Murder's solviness dropped off so I townread him less now but I still think he's much more likely to be town.

s_s has been quite towny when he's posted but he hasn't posted quite enough for me to strong TR him.

Catboi and dann are probably scum.

Everyone else I'd be really happy if paired.

Shiki's prism read here is super towny for her I think. It's not trying to look towny but it's difficult to think of that unless you're really trying to sort someone's alignment.

Prism I thought about why they would place so much importance on their read on me here and I didn't come up with anything. They're not appealing to murdercat to keep me out of the pairings, so I don't see a scum agenda there that makes sense.

[Infinity 324]

Monkey also somehow got townier since I last talked about that read

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Absolute

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I do think not being solvy is actively scummy, but it's pretty weakly so. I think it's mostly a matter of I expected murder to keep up the solviness, which was influencing my townread of him, so I probably shouldn't have had such a strong townread on him to begin with.

[Infinity 324]

I trust prism

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Can we stop throwing trusts around and decide on something we'll actually accept? I said it once and I'll say it again, no one is conftown for not accepting a trust.

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I feel like I should've known in retrospect, given how much of s_s's content was not relevant to solving at all but sigh

This does make me more ok with trusting anyone but catboi or Dann.

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Murder/shiki/monkey should leave the game for sure. I'd prefer for the last one to be me.

What do others think on this? May affect who I trust

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Dann

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I trust monkey

I'm gonna get this over with. I'm feeling paranoid about murder right now but I'm pretty sure that's irrational and I don't think we can really account for the possibility that murder is scum here.

[Infinity 324]

Bruh

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Monkey do you still think it's catboi?

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Why am I scum murder

PEdit: maybe I'm ok with murder's plan then but jeez. I'm certainly not 100% confident that it's dann.

Catboi who do you think it is?

[Infinity 324]

I don't really know if I can do better than I have. Maybe ISOs will help but maybe not. Still think it's dann if not it's prooobably catboi?

PEdit: It was to pick at prism's s_s townread, since I wasn't as confident he was town.

[Infinity 324]

Murdercat this game would be a lot easier if you townread me

Do you think I'm confident enough as scum that I can trick you that I base my gameplay around it early on?

[Infinity 324]

Why wouldn't I confirm you as scum?

I feel like you haven't really been that active solving since early d2 and it's been kinda hard to "solve with you"

PEdit: when?

[Infinity 324]

I kinda tricked you in metal covers, but also it was only during a short d1 and you were null on me really. So.

The wincon for scum!me is pretty clearly to leave Dann and catboi out right?

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If it would help I think I can trust you now, I don't see a reason for scum!you to make this push really

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I had actually been feeling fairly good about Infinity and she was the one I had in mind for clearing but I wanted to revisit the ISO first.

Catboi probably isn't a gamethrower huh

[Infinity 324]

The best way I solve atm is probably by just watching so I may be quieter for a bit

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I like how monkey lets his emotions go free without regard to how he's perceived. I'm envious tbh

[Infinity 324]

I like how monkey lets his emotions go free without regard to how he's perceived. I'm envious tbh

aren't you able to do it this game?

Not really? There's always some amount of social anxiety for me

[Infinity 324]

In forest fire? Idk, there are times when I feel less restrained but I'm basically never 100% unrestrained.

PEdit: I don't scumread you anymore lol, I think you had to scumread me to win as scum here.

Knowing you have a good scumgame that I haven't seen yet didn't help, and the rest of it was basically thing that monkey and prism said.

[Infinity 324]

I don't want to leave behind murdercat

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untrust monkey

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I'm confident shiki is town

I trust inutile

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I'm only not trusting murder because monkey would yell at me if I'm wrong

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Stop

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gj

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I wouldn't have trusted shiki if I thought we could reasonably win a game with her as scum.

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That said, I messed up I'm sorry etc

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Ok you say that but we were also talking about dann you, dann me, and dann catboi

Idk maybe I just didn't understand the gamestate well enough

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I wouldn't have trusted shiki if I thought we could reasonably win a game with her as scum.

That's kind of a tautology

Not sure what you mean, if you trust someone cause you're 100% confident they're town you don't need to believe that

[Infinity 324]

I really didn't think shiki was trying to get paired, but I overthought it

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I wanted to make you 100% on inutile, lol

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I also thought that Infinity playing so heavily for Murder early on was a big strategic mistake and it really took time to undo that damage.

?

[Infinity 324]

I think I explained this enough ingame, no offense. It took a lot of effort from multiple players to get reads out of you, which you then took credit for as though you did it basically unprompted and you did all the work for by giving them so what's the issue? This made it a lot harder both because we spent so much of our own time/effort figuring out what to ask you & how to get you to answer, and made it harder to believe the thoughts in response were genuine. Speaking personally, I came around to a townread later but I think it could have happened much sooner.

I think I have a lot of work to do as far as making my towngame more readable goes, but this is not at all how I saw the situation. I didn't see an inherent necessity to out all my reads in what was essentially early d1, and once monkey asked me to I did so, I don't know where you got "a lot of effort from multiple players"? If someone asked me to lay out my reads before that point, I totally missed it. I struggled a lot this game with balancing transparency with observing the gamestate in order to get the best reads, since I think especially in this setup that scum can use that info to manipulate the gamestate and get trust falls more easily. If you have advice on how to balance that better I'd appreciate it.

[Infinity 324]

I think a lot of players were worried about that "info to manipulate gamestate" when they really didn't have to be. Information is inherently +town; your townreads/scumreads that you're trying to hide came from people posting thoughts. It's noise/dilution that you should worry about. It's significantly easier for scum to just let people be black boxes.

As scum they have to tailor their reads to

both

get townread

and

avoid two town trusting. As an example, even though it paid off in the end S_S really took a huge risk by encouraging me/HEM. He outed that read precisely because he felt forced to by fear of opposing it and being up shit creek later, but the more direct result was town one pairing away from winning and ~maybe~ scum will get compensation via a trust in 5 way. We forced him to pick a poison.

If I felt like I was generating very little readable content I would certainly out my reads so that people have something to work with. But I don't know what people need to be able to read me. Looking back, I think you were trying to tell me that you needed more from me a little earlier, but I could not understand at all what you were saying, at least the portion of it that was relevant to what I should do in the game, so that might me part of the problem here.

I put a lot of value on my reads being difficult to manipulate. I don't have any confidence in my ability to win the WIFOM game against scum, so if I give all of my thought process unprompted I'm running a pretty big risk of telling scum exactly how to beat me.

[Infinity 324]

The past/future thing is why I'm more hesitant to out reasons for my reads early d1 than at any other point, where I'm mostly just laying everything out. That said, I'll definitely experiment with being more open when I notice an instinct to do otherwise.