Open 821 | Fall With Your Friends | Endgame

[Prism]

Someone better meet my standard, I won't settle for less

[Prism]

So this is how Ydrasse and Hectic are going to end the day on Page 1, only 2/3 more twirls to go before a successful trust pairing

[Prism]

I briefly considered doing something similar but it's both objectively awful and completely shuts you out of the rest of the game regardless of if wrong or right.

Beyond puzzled that you actually did that.

[Prism]

I'm going to speed us up to Page 2 because I'd rather kill the meme and not throw the game

[Prism]

Maybe I'm playing the anti-fun police too much for who I am but I think not even trying to sort or play the actual game, with this playerlist, is a disgrace.

[Prism]

(I don't really have a proper gauge on either Hectic/Ydrasse, I'd slot Hectic as more likely scum for it but I think it's a tossup what Ydrasse does in response)

[Prism]

but also it's page 2 how much sorting are you expecting

Do you understand the mechanics of post 16?

[Prism]

it happens every game of this setup ime,

at the very least we know ydrasse is town from it

I would not have accepted any trust early as scum in this setup. I am not Ydrasse but this is a very bad assumption.

[Prism]

Anyway Hectic is having too much fun with posts like 39, 42, and 49 so I guess it's time to tunnel him again.

[Prism]

shouldn't mafia always insta-accept?

Strictly mechanically, yes.

There are more pernicious qualitative factors at play: For example, trusting/accepting a third player later and casting doubt on the first.

[Prism]

Anyway Hectic is having too much fun with posts like 39, 42, and 49 so I guess it's time to tunnel him again.

Oh no

I'll happily accept it since I know the end result is a townread

Still tanking

You don't seem worried about my skepticism.

[Prism]

Is it serious? I thought you were joking

You don't seem very interested in gauging the reactions to your play, which is the one thing it is actually good for.

[Prism]

You seem to be dissuading the meme accept a lot which makes you slightly +scum if Ydrasse is town

I am once again glad to be doing the work of sorting me on your behalf. You're like a lawnmower that won't start until I kick it 2/3 times.

[Prism]

I frequently swap around, and want to be less aggressive this time around.

Simultaneously, old habits die hard and I have been impatiently pacing various rooms the last month dying to play.

[Prism]

It is incredibly tempting to say "If I can't beat them, join them" and propose to Ydrasse but I will restrain myself.

[Prism]

The point of 91 is that proposing would be a meme, not anything strategic, S_S

[Prism]

I also don't like horsegirls, which is my bigger sticking point.

[Prism]

I thought Murder openly admitting 79 right after I explain why doing so works as scum was a bit bold. I don't put a lot of stock in the 59 to 79 progression but arguably it's there. Scum also aren't exactly obliged to followthrough with that plan, but it makes getting proposed to to begin with less likely.

I had a few different plans for playing scum but town really depends on what position I find myself in/how confident I am in the other players.

[Prism]

I am annoyed by that trust regardless of what that flips. I will mald if I explain why and there's no point at this juncture. I am unhappy whoever is town trusted but I am glad they left.

I lost a post on HEM. I think he has scum incentive to reverse the proposal but he's right in 119.

I'd slot him as a townlean for the balance he's striking on me this game. He's been very eager to interact with me, and not at all in an either nervous or overly serious way. I think angling for convincing Ydrasse over me (which burned him last time by trying too hard to do) would be a very straightforward & easy adjustment but the side banter with me regarding avatars, soulstaring, etc would be a nice touch.

[Prism]

I thought Murder openly admitting 79 right after I explain why doing so works as scum was a bit bold.

I don't think that what he said is really the same as what you said. His strategy was obviously put forth from a town perspective; whether he would actually follow that if given the chance to leave as scum is another matter.

I really don't know how to interact with you because both this and the prior added nothing. I am well aware of the difference in perspective given; the point of my post is the utilization of that perspective to accomplish the same proposed result.

[Prism]

Prism/S_S town, this game is going to be over in like a day

I would probably vote you out in a heartbeat for this post, but I also didn't like your entrance because I strongly suspect you were reading before the day end.

[Prism]

I don't really like our pacing so I'm going to step away for a few hours in the hopes of slowing it down.

[Prism]

I am very bad at staying away and did not last 10 minutes.

Infinity, where does the townread on me come from?

[Prism]

This is the game, Prism

This is the game where I townread you and never let myself go back on it out of doubt or pure butthurt OMGUS, while you whiff on me yet again

ω(=＾・＾=)ω

Trust me then and prove it.

[Prism]

This is the game, Prism

This is the game where I townread you and never let myself go back on it out of doubt or pure butthurt OMGUS, while you whiff on me yet again

ω(=＾・＾=)ω

Trust me then and prove it.

I don't make this post to anyone except catboi, ever, as a disclaimer. Very specific reaction.

[Prism]

This is the game, Prism

This is the game where I townread you and never let myself go back on it out of doubt or pure butthurt OMGUS, while you whiff on me yet again

ω(=＾・＾=)ω

Trust me then and prove it.

I thought you didn't want to speedgame this?

Do you actually expect me, as town, to accept you?

[Prism]

@prism

If you're scum I'd expect you to be a bit more directed/setting up an agenda than you were here. Of course then you starting posting things that fit with an agenda a bit better but /shrug

I'm irrationally biased towards townreading you based off early posts after forest fire

PEdit: that feels like a scumpost from dann idk why

My issue with it is that there were no agressive "towny antics", just annoyance at Hectic/Ydrasse. There are limits to how much control I have over a game regardless of alignment.

[Prism]

This is the game, Prism

This is the game where I townread you and never let myself go back on it out of doubt or pure butthurt OMGUS, while you whiff on me yet again

ω(=＾・＾=)ω

Trust me then and prove it.

I thought you didn't want to speedgame this?

Do you actually expect me, as town, to accept you?

Nope, or I'd have done it before you even asked. Still want me to make the move?

Yeah.

[Prism]

It is worth elaborating why part of me wants a slower pace. This is a table of players with wide familiarity, where it is incredibly hard to miss with meta provide we take our time. The chance of Hectic as scum fooling Ydrasse for 30 minutes off of tone is a lot better than for two weeks.

I was also explicitly worried about a similar tactic to petapan's in Nightless Exploder Pandemonium, where the amount of town directed kills/leashing means that taking the game seriously tanks the scum's chance of winning. He was very direct about wanting a fast-paced, lighthearted game not for the fun of it but for advancing his own win condition, and I think similar mechanics play out here.

[Prism]

tbqh I don't think any combination of scum ever wins this setup

(with this plist)

I am incredibly sad that I will not get the chance to personally prove you wrong and that the ball lies with others.

[Prism]

I don't really have any solid reads at the moment other than a catboi scumlean so it's a good time to once again try to pry myself from my computer and go outside.

Yeah.

Mmm, want to give myself a chance to get reads on other people first before I make that move but probably still going to go through with it

My point with this was to call this bluff. I am deeply skeptical that he had a hard townread on me in the early pages, let alone actually be willing to trust me over more directly just calling it off. I expected him as town not to do it, and the time it took to make this post helped a bit, but I still think this is overconfident. I really wanted him to do it to restrict what he could do as scum moving forward.

[Prism]

We discussed during signups that shit like Page 1 was our hypothetical worst nightmare as scum. The fact you didn't show up until after is a big redflag, as is your eagerness both to sprint straight into a loss with me and the bizarre "no speedgame" reasoning afterwards. You also know how much stronger my tone is as scum than as town. I don't buy this.

[Prism]

(To be more clear: We discussed the absolute pain of trying to get in the way of two town destined to find each other/maintain control of the game in light of it; I think we both agree that speedgaming/it specifically happening on page 1 is advantageous for scum)

[Prism]

You are welcome to continue saying that I am lock scum if you want, I'm going to turn my attention to other people.

I don't really have any solid reads at the moment other than a

catboi scumlean

so it's a good time to once again try to pry myself from my computer and go outside.

Bad faith but sure, last I'll post on it.

[Prism]

What pairings would you be comfortable with HEM?

[Prism]

If I didn't want to speedgame I would be trusting HEM at this point. Arguably he should be more worried about my scumgame but he hasn't seen it.

[Prism]

If I didn't want to avoid speegaming*

[Prism]

I am very, very comfortable with HEM as town. My question was meant to put pressure to come up with something very good; he knows that tone/townreading me isn't enough as scum and would take the time to create something really cohesive.

I think this would be compounded by a more general problem he has as scum, which was overexplanation of reads.

Assuming he returns it one more pairing should win this very cleanly.

[Prism]

Sorry to rope you in again so soon cat, but I'm curious if you agree with me on HEM.

[Prism]

Given that there is another avenue towards winning the game rather than pairing off yourself, I think going strictly for a Murder-yourself (Infinity) pairing is not a great idea.

You've also made it clear in other games that your ability to be obviously town is very hit/miss and have demonstrated a lot more interest in the solving side of things-Taking a lot of pride in both making and being correct in reads-than you are here.

[Prism]

If I'm wrong on HEM then maybe S_S is scum, but if I am right but I really don't see scum-S_S galloping fullspeed towards 5 way here (ie. It is likely the case that HEM town->S_S town)

[Prism]

i'll do you one better; explain your meta

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12861663
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12612853

I often try to hero solve for style points

I'm very null on Dannflor, but can you talk more about HEM?

I concur that he has some incentive to interject with the trust as scum but there's definitely reasoning there as town if he legitimately believes Hectic trusting was a scumclaim and/or wants to test for Hectic/Ydrasse. Is there something else about his slot that I'm missing?

Discarding the stuff about me that I suspect is fake, I think the rest thus far is very trivial for catboi either way.

[Prism]

I think Infinity is well-aware that she's likely to be caught out by the wider table. The "Why not?" approach is fine if you're pursuing one path but allowing for both, and Infinity is not.

Dannflor's last post seems +town but maybe I'm really starting to lower the bar if I think Dann/Murder/S_S are town just for giving mostly basic reads.

[Prism]

Actually yeah I missed that the Murder townread was a turnaround preceded by the catteam hero solve I'm not slotting Dannflor as town for that.

[Prism]

Infinity is not

What do you mean by this? Sure it's fine if I don't trust fall, it's just...I think murder will townread me so I think I can trust fall. I don't see how I can or can not "allow" for a scenario where I don't trust fall because it's mostly just up to murder (and everyone else).

You are not earnestly pursuing or making the minimum accommodations for a path to winning that involves something else until called out. This is a problem regardless of alignment.

[Prism]

When interrogated over it. I am not going to devolve into further pedantry on this. Best of luck with your pursuit if town.

[Prism]

I probably want me/HEM today but outside that I'd go 2/3 of S_S/Murder/Dann in roughly that order of preference

Mostly looking forward to when inutile comes online, hopefully makes the game much easier.

[Prism]

The level of confidence I have in HEM town is strong. I do not want to pair him off elsewhere for that reason (as being wrong burns what is imo a free point for town)

I'm not in control of what other people do-including HEM, who would have to reciprocate-and am not opposed to S_S/Murder today. I'm just a lot less confident in those reads. Beyond that it really depends how I feel about inutile.

[Prism]

Take as much time and ask as many questions as you like; I'm in no rush.

[Prism]

SS/cat could be good, if there is scum in that pair so be it

Oh good god you mean catboi not yourself oh hell no

[Prism]

catboi could literally make every post thus far as scum on 72 hours of no sleep and juggling 3 8 lb bowling balls oh fuck no

[Prism]

Prism whats ur favorite flavor of ice cream and also what shpuld i be looking out for if youre scum and why are you different

I don't have any good tips for reading me other than through flips (I despise unnecessary bussing) or puzzling out whether certain reads are implausible for me to hold. More concretely, I don't cede control of the game Day 2 unless I have extreme faith in my partner.

Beyond that ask catboi for tips since he apparently he spotted the difference instantly.

[Prism]

catboi could literally make every post thus far as scum on 72 hours of no sleep and juggling 3 8 lb bowling balls oh fuck no

b4 u start crying in ur room about me tunneling u btw cat i'm not saying that every post you made is scummy or something (only the ones about me!!!) but 100% you doing basic reactions/reads is NAI

[Prism]

More concretely, I don't cede control of the game Day 2 unless I have extreme faith in my partner.

To clarify on why this is, while I am a tryhard as town I straight up

refuse

to lose as scum. I haven't flipped it often but I haven't lost a scumgame since 2016, I do not just go "haha it's up 2 u now" and peace unless I foolproof it first. In a Newbie game or something I'd be a bit more deferential/open to teaching but with this table absolutely not.

[Prism]

Curious why you reached out to me in particular, though?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86615

I believe you have some experience with HEM as scum, and I recall you spotting him out quite easily.

You don't have to go indepth as to the specific behaviors if you want to keep a competitive advantage, but I would like to know the name of the games you looked at. I think this is a fair compromise given that I have exactly two scumgames since 2018 and a few posts from scattered ones where I had to replace out early.

[Prism]

Haven't actually encountered Prism-scum firsthand in a forum game, but have done some research, and I do not feel this is it.

Cool, feel free to clear me at any time so HEM feels better about it at any time. Totally not setting you up to be quarantined after I flip red, I promise.

[Prism]

I'm ambivalent towards humaneatingmonkey. I couldn't necessarily point to anything he said that was glaringly bad but his overall play felt a bit sideliney and geared toward targets that were either lhf or blatantly self-destructing. I had him as a pocket scumread coming into the game because some of his posts with regard to orctin felt rather shifty and he seemed to be minimizing attention on orctin while directing people's focus elsewhere, but I don't want to get too deep into preflip associatives. 558 about Dum is a bit of a head scratcher because he seems to be implying it's scummy for Dum to have fallen off in activity, rather than just being a case of someone not having enough time for the game. The townread on ninjastore today is a bit of a headscratcher as well in how loose/easy it is, feelsa disproportionate level of confidence for the reasoning behind it. Didn't like the way he was pushing JV but I sort of expected scum-him to continue tunneling me on my entry to the game if I presented myself as a threat but he agreed with me on orctin pretty quickly, he's either town or a very pre-emptive busser. I guess ultimately my feeling is while there's maybe only a few spots in his posting that strike me as odd there isn't anything I would say is necessarily obvtown and out of the scum range of an experienced player.

Do you believe HEM has displayed any similarities to the above, ex. sideliney, shifting attention, confident/ease of reads, pre-emptive busser

[Prism]

If this is HEM/catboi I am going to be so salty because catboi is saying all the right things to make me internally doubledown on HEM town

[Prism]

catboi is a scumread and my comment about him apparently easily telling the difference with me was backhanded.

I don't trust his opinion of you at all; my fear was a bit more meta because disagreeing with someone's townread on a partner with something I know will be unconvincing, in the hopes that it makes them double down something, is something I do frequently.

[Prism]

I would be unhappy to see Infinity out with what I have seen so far.

[Prism]

That makes sense. I would want to leave with either Infinity or Murdercat.

There are probably 5/6 people at this table that I would want to completely crush any hope of winning against me as scum before I ever get to the point of wanting to pocket you and casually peace out, sorry.

[Prism]

I understand Prism. Im taking it slow. Please dont be hurt.

I'm annoyed because one of the names is a slight townlean and the other an active scumread.

If you want to go with someone else go with S_S

[Prism]

any immediate reads, inutile?

not really beyond what i or others have said,

Can you be more explicit? "or others have said" is extremely broad

[Prism]

To be fair with catboi he has been playing with me for 11 years and hears my thoughts/ideas on mafia several times a week.

I don't think he got me as town based off the first few pages but if anyone

could do that

it is definitely him

[Prism]

I am restraining myself from being a more forceful or aggressive advocate right now and it better pay off.

[Prism]

I am restraining myself from being a more forceful or aggressive advocate right now and it better pay off.

if on account of me there is no need, past on me much moreso than you

have i made the game easier?

It was more about Infinity/HEM/Murder.

I have no issues with your play or past. The game has not gotten easier yet but it has only been a few hours.

[Prism]

While I appreciate that Infinity's read on Murder has gotten somewhat believable I would still vote her or catboi out if this were a traditional game.

[Prism]

inutile, who would you want to trust at this juncture if you had to? Or would you want to be one of the people leftover?

[Prism]

I'm out right now but there are extensive parts of my ISO about not liking his read on me.

[Prism]

One of those posts being in direct response to a question from you, by the way.

[Prism]

I also vehemently disagreed with that. With this theory in mind, who would you like to see paired, and who do you need more from?

[Prism]

? When you say utility, can you be more specific?

Sorry to be playing 20Q

[Prism]

I get why HEM wants faster trusts but I'm again happy to take it slow, even if it's not as exciting and I spent parts of yesterday impatient myself.

My preference order right now if I were to pair would be HEM->S_S->inutile. I still just doubt S_S encourages me/HEM quickly yesterday if HEM is town, so pairing them off is likely safe as well.

I haven't had time to really read and it might be awhile; last day traveling and then full day of flights home tomorrow.

[Prism]

I still just doubt S_S encourages me/HEM quickly yesterday if HEM is town, so pairing them off is likely safe as well.

Do you think s_s would think he has any influence on whether you two actually pair?

I can't definitively answer this but scum should be looking to influence pairings and dissuade town ones. I think this is straightforward and immediately supporting my strong TR over hoping it changes with time is a horrible idea.

[Prism]

Definitely town: HEM
Probably town: S_S
Townleans: Murdercat, inutile
Nullish: Dannflor
Don't trust: Infinity
Where is my day vig?: catboi

[Prism]

Explaining the full context of me/prism would require going into more backstory than I want to divulge right now. But suffice to say the ongoing dance of them immediately suspecting me and disliking outing a snap townread of them is very much in character and expected behavior from them. I don't really think Prism should be townreading me, but the immediate scumread is slightly annoying, but mostly amusing. In a regular game I might be more frustrated with it, here the game is playable regardless, I don't have to spend all day arguing with them. It's amusing to me because if I am right prism will have once again jumped to the wrong conclusion about my alignment, and that is very funny to me~~

I'm not apologizing if you're town. That read on me was absolute ass. I would buy a gut townlean pending more info/flips but being willing to trust me and not being explicit with why you got cold feet or having your read progress at all was also ass. Maybe by page 20 there's enough for a solid townread but I never believe you locktown me for

these

six or so pages and if you did you're lucky I didn't just immediately steamroll you for it.

[Prism]

Also btw Prism, how town is "definitely town" for HEM? Because it seems like you do still have some paranoia of him (specifically of me/him, despite us being your strongest townreads).

I would like to answer this more specifically after catboi checks, if you don't mind.

More broadly, for paranoia I can always be wrong, and you can take advantage of biases in order to exacerbate misplaced confidence (my fear with cat), while you two is just straightforward insurance. I lost no sleep over it and it gives a good backup pairing if people don't want me out.

[Prism]

I don't think metaing me is a great use of time but if you have an academic interest, my last scumgame I start out null intentionally but then decide to just end the game and become a universal TR halfway through. Some non-Newbie games were Owner's Market and The Thaw where I rolled MoI/GreyICE despite being drunk for half of it. The game S_S is referencing is Miss List where town effectively had 6 guesses to get me with only 6 town players.

[Prism]

In contrast, if anyone is interested in those there is an extensive history of me leading town straight off the cliff into like 7 losses and a sub 50 winrate

[Prism]

My own ego, nothing to do with the current page at all, feel free to ignore it.

[Prism]

And I check under my bed for a 73 year old man way too into anime, WWE, and fake cat ears but that's just the circle of life

I don't think I missed any questions for me but I won't be around tonight/tomorrow unless I have downtime on trains, feel free to @ me if I missed anything or you want thoughts

[Prism]

How did you even think to do this if you don't see the advantage? What were you thinking about/what was the process behind this?

[Prism]

pretty solid answer tbh

Might revisit infinity when I have time again, perspective on not trusting me despite TR lines up w/ Forest Fire+she can be pretty deferential when she wants to be. Redflags might be lack of scumread/pushes? Setup makes it weird

[Prism]

Also very fast turnaround for the response

[Prism]

Saying I will revisit and actually flipping the read are two very different things

Maybe you feel that way but in general people really struggle to answer questions about process quickly

[Prism]

Long layover so I'll try to put in some effort in a few hours, no promises b/c no sleep and want to nap

But if there's anything specific someone thinks I should look at lmk

[Prism]

Infinity's last page was super town, I want to say shiki's is too. Pushing me as a top townread isn't exactly damaging as scum given the position she entered the game in but instinctively I really, really want to call her town

In contrast Infinity's borderline throwing as scum so I feel a lot better about her atm

[Prism]

Acknowledging and not a chance in hell I'm accepting

[Prism]

I am strongly considering accepting Infinity later in the day, mostly when I get home and can really focus again

[Prism]

S_S's trust didn't surprise me there FWIW HEM, he had definitely telegraphed it in advance.

[Prism]

I'm very fine with that and was considering pairing you/Infinity or another strong townread for similar reasons before deciding I'd rather get us a point and call if over aiming high and essentially instalosing

[Prism]

Untrust Prism

rules don't specify a particular syntax for doing so but I assume this will do.

Fine, unsurprised with the outcome. Go ahhead and play the hero, friend. Just remember I was right on you. (=ↀωↀ=)✧

so what are these other brilliant pairings you have in mind so you can influence the game as a universal scumread no one will pair with

[Prism]

I will really try to carve out time to do my intense review/sit-down tomorrow so I don't wind up stalling the game out for an eternity

[Prism]

Theoretically you definitely want to see me flip before we start trusting down the line. I don't think delaying me is the worst idea-you still get two flips, and if I engineer a scum one that tanks me tomorrow, but the second we trust scum we're up shit creek regardless of whether they take it or not. It's better to just decide on a pairing and flip it, and in this case it's probably better that I be included.

[Prism]

This isn't slippery slope fallacy; the odds of whiffing go up with every consecutive trust both individually (worse reads/one town removed from pool) & in aggregate (more samples)

[Prism]

Murder, can you speak more about the S_S read? There's been nothing wrong with his play to me but other people have leapfrogged him in townread imo

Infinity for example is borderline throwing if she is scum with either cat/dannflor, though I suppose you think HEM is one

[Prism]

You won't pair with cat and I think hem and damn are scum. Inutile is too absent to have a strong read on and I don't want to pair. So what else makes sense?

I can go through S_S iso and meta later though when I'm not on my phone

What do you think about my suggestion to pair off with Infinity?

[Prism]

(Which was a pretty wild reversal tbf, but she deserved the 180)

[Prism]

I thought HEM suggesting he not paired with prism was a town motivated statement because I wouldn't expect him to refuse what is likely his best shot at getting out of the game if he is scum, and I don't see why he'd attack me rather than taking a more safe, quiet route. However, him continuing to try and bait me here is stoking my paranoia. I now explicitly am not okay with him being trusted, not that I expect Prism to care at all.

You could always try, you know, explaining your read on me/HEM without the blatant blinders on

[Prism]

Literally in what world do you have trust-level confidence in me based off of gut on page 6 over anything even remotely concrete

Absolutely bizarre

[Prism]

I trust Something_Smart

Arguably I should just go me/HEM, because HEM/Murder is going to be a really hard link to sell Murder on, but I think this is straightforward. I am more worried about catboi/HEM theater than is rational.

I think Murder+? wins the game but I would really recommend focusing on correctly sorting Infinity, who I believe you are much more familiar with than I am, with HEM/inutile also in the mix.

[Prism]

I'm an inpatient lad and there's actually no point in slowrolling here. Best of luck partner.

Pretty sure catboi just went out so he gets to mald when he gets back

[Prism]

With current content I wouldn't trust Dann/catboi

[Prism]

Of course not!

[Prism]

If there's a redflip on me here it's a mod error, I am town and S_S was the mafia

[Prism]

Unfortunately there is no town intent behind trusting someone I have made no mention or thought of trusting today.

[Prism]

I don't really think this is a great reaction but I still lean HEM town. I would do Murder+?

[Prism]

Not my finest trolljob so not that much to get from it

[Prism]

Question mark order being something like Infinity/inutile/HEM in some order that depends on how my coffee is sitting in my stomach more than anything game related -> Dannflor -> catboi

[Prism]

Really, really hoping that I don't get burned for the decision to just go for it over waiting until I can take things seriously again-my towngame is really bad without serious focus-but I suspect it's a straightforward point+shouldn't stall the game out waiting for me.

[Prism]

Congratulations to the scumteam on a well-earned win.

As for post-mortem, I think this game was pretty straightforward. I advocated slowing down to increase accuracy/avoid bad impulse decisions, and I advoacted pairing off with my top townread so as not to burn it all game. I then got antsy and decided to YOLO accept my 4th level townlean (???) before my flight rather than making the game wait 2/3 days for me to get home and revisit. I justified it to myself by using Murder as a proxy failsafe despite knowing he was completely wrong on HEM. I did all of this despite knowing that my impulse reads are horrendous and that I need serious 2/3 hour focus sessions in order to play well. I got what I deserved, and S_S had set himself up perfectly to capitalize on it-half on purpose with the trust following cat, half by fortune w/ the flights.

This should have been a cautionary tale but it wasn't, and we fell victim to similar. inutile gave pretty solid content and there wasn't as much to glean from the S_S flip as we would have liked. Very well played from the scumteam-I think this is Trust Fall's first scumwin?

I think cat's page 6 read on me was horrible and really poisoned the well for me, but I definitely had content later to fix it-631's butthurt paranoia on HEM was a classic town-catboi move that I saw, recognized realtime, and said "but underexplained reads, NO". Dannflor/S_S were a bit tougher and I just wish I had more experience with them. I also thought that Infinity playing so heavily for Murder early on was a big strategic mistake and it really took time to undo that damage.

I also still think that Hectic/Ydrasse opting not to play the game with this playerlist was a shame, and the level of the remainder of the game justified this. I wish we had had two people who were as genuinely passionate about the game as the other 8.

[Prism]

With two scum in my top 5 and a basically instantly losing trust, this game was mostly on me despite the criticism elsewhere.

[Prism]

I've had games stall out & get demoralized trying to adjust to my extremely slow pace before, and I think in hindsight that fear was a bit unfounded here. People definitely expected me to take more time and probably wouldn't have minded for me to wait. Maybe I still pick S_S in the end but I at least don't hardthrow.

Obviously I liked your play this game, though most of it was simply because of how divergent it was (imo) from the previous scumgame. A lot bolder/willingness to take control or really put the pressure on people to perform.

[Prism]

I also thought that Infinity playing so heavily for Murder early on was a big strategic mistake and it really took time to undo that damage.

?

I think I explained this enough ingame, no offense. It took a lot of effort from multiple players to get reads out of you, which you then took credit for as though you did it basically unprompted and you did all the work for by giving them so what's the issue? This made it a lot harder both because we spent so much of our own time/effort figuring out what to ask you & how to get you to answer, and made it harder to believe the thoughts in response were genuine. Speaking personally, I came around to a townread later but I think it could have happened much sooner.

[Prism]

I had specifically asked for more time but I did obviously know that wasn't likely to be listened to given I was a consensus scum read

You, cat, HEM, list goes on. That YOLO trust was stupid, no doubt about it.

[Prism]

This should have been a cautionary tale but it wasn't, and we fell victim to similar. inutile gave pretty solid content and there wasn't as much to glean from the S_S flip as we would have liked. Very well played from the scumteam-I think this is Trust Fall's first scumwin?

Nope, only town win was the run before this one, scum are 3/4 although one of those was the heavily scumsided 9p version.

Must be thinking of another setup, whoops

I felt there was a lot of history and meta experiences between players in this plist that I really struggled to read the interactions of, and I let it demotivate me. I wish I could try again and give it more energy. I was also pretty disappointed that two of the players I knew / have had the most experience with before left immediately

Sorry about that, I tried to curtail that sort of talk precisely because I felt it would be unproductive but I guess I didn't do enough. I feel like you kind of got shut out from my early read and that just kind of stuck and people were unwilling to give you space. I wish I'd pulled the trigger on trusting you when I had a moment of "hey, he might actually be town", but as with the rest of the game I was overcautious. Difficulty of this setup, I guess, with my personality I never want to act recklessly.

Seconding this-I appreciated the content you gave but never took the time how to figure out what to ask you/what to look for to get you more involved. This is a shame since you really went out of your way to try and give reads+reasoning early on Day 2 and I was like "Well this is nice, wellreasoned, but probably within this person's range so back to reading HEM/Infinity I guess". I didn't take the time to engage you to really figure you out, and was too content to let you sit in nullscum by default.

[Prism]

I think a lot of players were worried about that "info to manipulate gamestate" when they really didn't have to be. Information is inherently +town; your townreads/scumreads that you're trying to hide came from people posting thoughts. It's noise/dilution that you should worry about. It's significantly easier for scum to just let people be black boxes.

As scum they have to tailor their reads to

both

get townread

and

avoid two town trusting. As an example, even though it paid off in the end S_S really took a huge risk by encouraging me/HEM. He outed that read precisely because he felt forced to by fear of opposing it and being up shit creek later, but the more direct result was town one pairing away from winning and ~maybe~ scum will get compensation via a trust in 5 way. We forced him to pick a poison.

[Prism]

I put a lot of value on my reads being difficult to manipulate. I don't have any confidence in my ability to win the WIFOM game against scum, so if I give all of my thought process unprompted I'm running a pretty big risk of telling scum exactly how to beat me.

I think about this fundamentally differently. You want to force the other alignment to make hard/difficult decisions. The entire premise of mafia is is that town have an inherent advantage in finding each other given more information. Being forthcoming with reads/explanations is not really dangerous as town; for scum, who have to avoid certain votes at all cost, it is both very tasking & risky. If they are playing specifically around conforming to your stated expectations moving forward (which has limits because these are generally observations about the past and rarely the future, ie. no time machine to adjust backwards)/tricking you directly or encouraging your wrong reads more subtly, they are leaving themselves more vulnerable to losing to the other town players who have their own expectations/sets of reads.

Even in the best case scenario where scum can successfully conform to your expectations in a way that rectifies even past mistakes, the amount of time and effort this takes is tolling enough to give town other opportunities.