[MT2225] Chrono Trigger Chronicles - The Rise/Fall of Yakra

[ssbm_Kyouko]

sup nerds and Gamma I am here to destroy Yakra
VOTE: Gamma

[ssbm_Kyouko]

btw never played Chrono Trigger, I see one of the knights of guardia is like half-sized in the flavor posts, is there a dwarf or something that would explain that?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Lukewarm is scum if anyone wants to debate that with me. I think T3 and roden are scummy but I'm unwilling to look at them much at this point because their play styles are naturally scummy.

-bear nornor

Well I did want to vote luke up until 174, but now we have Noraa Roden and luke town, House off the table but tbh I skimmed him as i was focused on reading roden/nora.

I think i understand the T3 votes but i dont know yet if I agree with them. I'd rather VOTE: Guillotina right now

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Lukewarm is scum if anyone wants to debate that with me. I think T3 and roden are scummy but I'm unwilling to look at them much at this point because their play styles are naturally scummy.

-bear nornor

Well I did want to vote luke up until 174, but now we have Noraa Roden and luke town, House off the table but tbh I skimmed him as i was focused on reading roden/nora.

I think i understand the T3 votes but i dont know yet if I agree with them. I'd rather VOTE: Guillotina right now

Why?

I think you're an easy vote right now because of the memeing and the talks about massclaiming, but I don't see the AI posting from you yet. I also don't think any of the votes on you yet look particularly disingenuous, and separately I'm TRing Luke. I believe Gamma's vote was RVS iirc.

I want to vote Guillotina right now because I'm not seeing anything suspicious at a deeper level in anyone else yet, and their posts during the pages on pages of House, T3, and Angel Warriors were very sideliney - just posting images mocking the state of the conversation. At best it's useless to town, but at worst it's just scum that is afraid to take part in a significant way but wants to get involved

somehow

so it doesn't look too much like they're lurking. It's quite early to be saying anyone is lurking, but that's the feeling I get from those image posts.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Lukewarm is scum if anyone wants to debate that with me. I think T3 and roden are scummy but I'm unwilling to look at them much at this point because their play styles are naturally scummy.

-bear nornor

Well I did want to vote luke up until 174, but now we have Noraa Roden and luke town, House off the table but tbh I skimmed him as i was focused on reading roden/nora.

I think i understand the T3 votes but i dont know yet if I agree with them. I'd rather VOTE: Guillotina right now

Have you been reading but not contributing?

Because this post implies that you've been reading but not contributing.

No, when I came back to this thread from the last time I posted, the whole conversation had happened.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Lukewarm is scum if anyone wants to debate that with me. I think T3 and roden are scummy but I'm unwilling to look at them much at this point because their play styles are naturally scummy.

-bear nornor

Well I did want to vote luke up until 174, but now we have Noraa Roden and luke town, House off the table but tbh I skimmed him as i was focused on reading roden/nora.

I think i understand the T3 votes but i dont know yet if I agree with them. I'd rather VOTE: Guillotina right now

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
"I understand where the T3 votes are coming from"
The.... 2 RVS votes?
VOTE: ssbm

Luke's vote was not RVS, and House had voted you, but then unvoted, iirc. I posted that immediately after reading the whole conversation, so yes, "votes" plural. I was not talking about Gamma's vote. Did you forget House had voted for you?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm not interested in the who, I am interested in the thought process behind the decision.

Your post reads like a performative Look At Me I'm Town.

Did it not occur to you that the thought process can out the who? A performance isn't always LAMIST - that doesn't read like LAMIST to me, reads more like a town reaction test/gambit or town truth. Either way, I think he's townie enough for that claim, regardless of the truth behind it.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Lukewarm is scum if anyone wants to debate that with me. I think T3 and roden are scummy but I'm unwilling to look at them much at this point because their play styles are naturally scummy.

-bear nornor

Well I did want to vote luke up until 174, but now we have Noraa Roden and luke town, House off the table but tbh I skimmed him as i was focused on reading roden/nora.

I think i understand the T3 votes but i dont know yet if I agree with them. I'd rather VOTE: Guillotina right now

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
"I understand where the T3 votes are coming from"
The.... 2 RVS votes?
VOTE: ssbm

Good catch.

VOTE: ssbm

fuckin got em
VOTE: RMH

[ssbm_Kyouko]

"This head is giving me scum vibes and the other head is also giving me scum vibes, feelings are strong enough to place down a serious vote but oh! Btw I don't actually scum read your slot, I was just reaction testing"

There was a clear progression in those posts I thought. Going to go back.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm honestly super easy to read and consider it one of my bigger weaknesses, but most people just don't bother trying to read me for whatever reason. They just vibe check a random post then park their vote.

I didnt bother to read roden's scum game last time, but he is actually right that his scum game is all nice.
a brief brief skim truly does show that he plays "nice" in scum games
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Roden, I get it. you're town but there's no reason to act the way you are. I understand that you think your scum and town games are vastly different but that doesn't mean other people can see it as clearly. we are sorting you in good faith and you gain nothing from lashing out at everyone.

I tried very hard to work with you in summertime. If you decide to treat me the way you did that game, I am going to be very upset. Please stop. I will town case you. Stop arguing with people and just think. You are engaging people that you think are town in such bad faith. That is not going to get you anywhere. Literally, they are only going to get upset and think you are scum. What do you gain from that? You gain nothing so please stop.

-beario

I didnt bother to read roden's scum game last time, but he is actually right that his scum game is all nice.
a brief brief skim truly does show that he plays "nice" in scum games
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Roden, I get it. you're town but there's no reason to act the way you are. I understand that you think your scum and town games are vastly different but that doesn't mean other people can see it as clearly. we are sorting you in good faith and you gain nothing from lashing out at everyone.

I tried very hard to work with you in summertime. If you decide to treat me the way you did that game, I am going to be very upset. Please stop. I will town case you. Stop arguing with people and just think. You are engaging people that you think are town in such bad faith. That is not going to get you anywhere. Literally, they are only going to get upset and think you are scum. What do you gain from that? You gain nothing so please stop.

-beario

I play like this as town because I rely more on logic than vibes. I genuinely have trouble reading interactions and I'm not good at catching lies/reading intentions. But I'm fairly competent at catching people when it comes to their reactions.

In our newbie game I knew you were town and town locked you once I figured out your playstyle, and you almost read me correctly multiple times but our playstyles clashed too much. I genuinely believe we lost that game the moment you replaced out because Bulge wasn't bothering to solve. We both heavily suspected Italiano/Cabd and I think we could have Day 1'd him if we came together there.

Btw I don't actually scum read you. Your responses are actually pretty townie but I pushed to see how genuine you were. I think you're genuinely trying to read me here.

I'm honestly super easy to read and consider it one of my bigger weaknesses, but most people just don't bother trying to read me for whatever reason. They just vibe check a random post then park their vote.

You're not exactly giving me much to work with.

Who's scum? All you seen to care about is whining about my vote.

Get over it and scum hunt.

What do you think I'm doing?

Don't complain about my attitude if you're just gonna be rude and complain yourself. I don't know if you're actually town and it would be a bad play to blindly believe your claim.

Well, it read like a progression to me but I can see it as a reaction test given what Roden says here... :/

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Weird vibes from Gamma.

Which posts and what's weird about them? Hard disagree.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm gonna give T3 another glass of his favorite Cabernet Sauvignon.

VOTE: ssbm

This is who I was referring to in 163.

Since then, 177 happened, which further raised my suspicion... hence 179.

im not too worried about Kyoto reading and not contributing. the post is just scummy in general.

-norbearbear

177? What do you find scummy about that post?

Weird vibes from Gamma.

Which posts and what's weird about them? Hard disagree.

Focusing almost entirely on me.

That's fair actually, I've done that as scum before. Tunneled on my RVS vote because I couldn't figure out what else to do, but I don't think that's what's happening here. I do think this is the AI post I was waiting for though.

I think Lukewarm is scum if anyone wants to debate that with me. I think T3 and roden are scummy but I'm unwilling to look at them much at this point because their play styles are naturally scummy.

-bear nornor

Well I did want to vote luke up until 174, but now we have Noraa Roden and luke town, House off the table but tbh I skimmed him as i was focused on reading roden/nora.

I think i understand the T3 votes but i dont know yet if I agree with them. I'd rather VOTE: Guillotina right now

Why?

I think you're an easy vote right now because of the memeing and the talks about massclaiming, but I don't see the AI posting from you yet. I also don't think any of the votes on you yet look particularly disingenuous, and separately I'm TRing Luke. I believe Gamma's vote was RVS iirc.

I want to vote Guillotina right now because I'm not seeing anything suspicious at a deeper level in anyone else yet, and their posts during the pages on pages of House, T3, and Angel Warriors were very sideliney - just posting images mocking the state of the conversation. At best it's useless to town, but at worst it's just scum that is afraid to take part in a significant way but wants to get involved

somehow

so it doesn't look too much like they're lurking. It's quite early to be saying anyone is lurking, but that's the feeling I get from those image posts.

This player must be new. If I randed scum I would be leading town to their dismay right now. Guillotina

afraid

to take part?

I was out at the beach with my family yesterday, so I just chilled here for a bit.

Just because we haven't played together before doesn't make me new. I think so, yes, especially with this reaction. As much as you, as either alignment, would like me to believe you would not be afraid to take part as scum, this bravado indicates I've hit the nail on the head.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I do think this is the AI post I was waiting for though.

Meaning T3 is town btw

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So I looked at Townstumps and while it wasn't saying hte votes made sense, Mia and Maya treated the RVS votes against FMFT (T3's alt) as serious, so the vibes are potentially similar
but having thought about it, outside of a meta context I think ssbm's comment was reasonable, just because the votes were initially RVS doesn't mean they necessarily stayed that was, and T3 did do some potentially scummy stuff

That's not what I meant in 177 and I already clarified this. The votes I was talking about were House's and Lukewarm's, not yours, which I was still thinking was RVS at the time.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Noraa, think of my Italiano read from d1 in that game. In D1 I am more often than not an over-explainer as I try to find and case scum early. As I mentioned, I haven't picked up on anything "deep" yet which is why I dont have walls out.

After 2213 ended I focused on trying to be more persuasive in my cases as I could not convince town to lim Italiano: see the owner's market blitz game in my recent iso for evidence of that, though that game was much more focused on the auction mechanics so I had a lot of numbers to talk about.

Here's the first wall on scum!Italiano from 2213 for those interested, but mostly for Noraa
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12780927

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: ssbm

Voting me because you think im worried about posting even though you admitted to have never played with me sounds like you are making up a reason to scum read me.

This sounds like a bad faith take on someone that you

also

have no experience with. I think the nature of your posts indicated you were worried to commit anything more concrete to that conversation.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

the day is young

Agreed on this though^
I see potential for us both to come around, but don't like the start I'm seeing from you.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: ssbm

Voting me because you think im worried about posting even though you admitted to have never played with me sounds like you are making up a reason to scum read me.

This sounds like a bad faith take on someone that you

also

have no experience with. I think the nature of your posts indicated you were worried to commit anything more concrete to that conversation.

Nah, it's read. There is no way you'd know if i was worried or not is there? You got no meta to based that on so what else is there?

You just picked on someone you thought was easy LHF without realizing you picked on the God of Mafia gaming himself. Lol

You posting

something

without posting something

significant

indicates to me that you both a) wanted to post and b) did not know what to post.

^that is my reading of your thought process behind the posts.

My conclusion that I draw from my understanding of your thought process is that you are scum that wants to post something so they don't draw attention to themselves by lurking, but at the same time you are content with the state of the TvT that is Roden, House, Angel, and T3, so you didnt want to say anything to involve yourself in that when town were already doing a good job of infighting.

If I wanted to pick on LHF I would have just pretended to SR T3.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You assume that I have to have meta on you to scumread you for some reason. I didnt have meta on Italiano and I plucked him out on page 11.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You assume that I have to have meta on you to scumread you for some reason. I didnt have meta on Italiano and I plucked him out on page 11.

You are scumreading me for something you can't possibly know, you are not right next to me to tell me that I'm worried about posting lol, how would you if I had just posted like 4 times and you have no idea of who i am as a player. I don't believe you genuinely scumread me, you just picked up a fight with someone you thought it was a Goldfish and the Goldfish turned out to be a Shark.

Again, I don't need meta on you to scumread you for what I have perceived your motivations and thoughts to be. I've explained how I came to that conclusion. You can choose whether to believe my thoughts are real or not.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You assume that I have to have meta on you to scumread you for some reason. I didnt have meta on Italiano and I plucked him out on page 11.

You are scumreading me for something you can't possibly know, you are not right next to me to tell me that I'm worried about posting lol, how would you if I had just posted like 4 times and you have no idea of who i am as a player. I don't believe you genuinely scumread me, you just picked up a fight with someone you thought it was a Goldfish and the Goldfish turned out to be a Shark.

Again, I don't need meta on you to scumread you for what I have perceived your motivations and thoughts to be. I've explained how I came to that conclusion. You can choose whether to believe my thoughts are real or not.

And i don't, hence my vote on you. I've played this game for two decades now, I know a fake when they think they can get an "LHF" over.

Not today corazón!

So you, without meta on me, know a fake that is trying to get an LHF over? And I, with no meta on you, cannot know you were worried about disrupting the TvT? Fascinating cogdis.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah could have sworn guillo was voting me.

Mastina why do you scumread me?
Gamma what about me and Guillo looks TvS to you?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You assume that I have to have meta on you to scumread you for some reason. I didnt have meta on Italiano and I plucked him out on page 11.

You are scumreading me for something you can't possibly know, you are not right next to me to tell me that I'm worried about posting lol, how would you if I had just posted like 4 times and you have no idea of who i am as a player. I don't believe you genuinely scumread me, you just picked up a fight with someone you thought it was a Goldfish and the Goldfish turned out to be a Shark.

Again, I don't need meta on you to scumread you for what I have perceived your motivations and thoughts to be. I've explained how I came to that conclusion. You can choose whether to believe my thoughts are real or not.

And i don't, hence my vote on you. I've played this game for two decades now, I know a fake when they think they can get an "LHF" over.

Not today corazón!

So you, without meta on me, know a fake that is trying to get an LHF over? And I, with no meta on you, cannot know you were worried about disrupting the TvT? Fascinating cogdis.

That's right, you know why? Because i scum read you and my gut almost never fails. You picked up a lame reason to scum read me and vote me which is posting images in the first 24 hours into the game and im an specialist in catching wolves during RVS, im sorry for your rand and I'm sorry i signed up to play this game where you cannot shine.

Even more, im going back to posting more images and own your team with a self imposed post restriction just because i love the challenge, i live spiting scum and I'm just that damn good.

So you're aware of the cognitive dissonance and unwilling to budge. You scumread me for [gut reasons] (aka a fake read). I've caught you for the wrong reasons and you're now trying to misrepresent what those reasons are. On top of that you're so town for doubling down on the misrepresented reason for which I'm scumreading you.

The reason I SR you: The posts you made during the TvT post-storm indicate to me you wanted to contribute so you wouldn't be called out for not posting, but at the same time you did not want to draw attention to yourself or disrupt the infighting.
The misrepresentation: posting images

Go ahead and own

"my team"

, if you bus hard and fast enough maybe you'll make it a few more days.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Roden, gun to your head, am I town or scum, and why?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

House is a mason JOAT and his partner who is unclaimed is a Mason bodyguard, according to House

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And Dwlee on policy is not the bodyguard because dwlee cant roll mason

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think the interaction between you and Guillotina is genuine, but idk if it's both of you or just one of you. It's not guaranteed either of you are scum either even if I'm right, since I believe third party is a possibility.

What seems fake about it?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If we get a claim I wouldn't mind hammering it even though there is time left. People can catch up at night : shrug:

Are you caught up?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If multiple people are confident on Luke being town then I think his read on T3 has merit.

What is the purpose of this post? As far as I can tell it's unrelated to any conversation thread and the last time Luke mentioned a T3 scum read was kind of far back.

I cant figure out what you're thinking here. For as much interaction as you have with quite a few people, and for as much as it looks like you're possibly trying to find scum, I was surprised to see you haven't interacted with or commented on RMH, except once in 439, where you softly defend his slot for a really bad reason. It doesn't occur to you that RMH is scum waiting out the pressure and laying low? It occurs to me that this is what's happening and it's your job to redirect the heat.

Why shouldn't he be a wagon?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The only thing 456 correlates to is derailing the RMH wagon imo

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And the fact Luke's read is so far back indicates to me Roden was searching for anything to grasp onto

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think the interaction between you and Guillotina is genuine, but idk if it's both of you or just one of you. It's not guaranteed either of you are scum either even if I'm right, since I believe third party is a possibility.

What seems fake about it?

Guillo seemed ready to death tunnel you, and I wasn't vibing with your response. But I think it makes more sense that he was just super sensitive to getting scum read for the wrong reasons, not necessarily because he's actually scum but because he didn't think your reasoning was good. He claimed to be certain you were scum but backed down when questioned more on it, which made me think it was an emotional/pride thing. Basically I do think it's possible to be a fake response but for you both to be town anyway.

You weren't vibing with

my

response, but you voted

Guillotina

, even though he is the one you perceived as having a prideful reaction that could be fake, and coming from town.

So why Guillotina rather than me?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If we get a claim I wouldn't mind hammering it even though there is time left. People can catch up at night : shrug:

Are you caught up?

No and I haven't read anything.

Oh god, you really do just play like this, huh?

If multiple people are confident on Luke being town then I think his read on T3 has merit.

What is the purpose of this post? As far as I can tell it's unrelated to any conversation thread and the last time Luke mentioned a T3 scum read was kind of far back.

I cant figure out what you're thinking here. For as much interaction as you have with quite a few people, and for as much as it looks like you're possibly trying to find scum, I was surprised to see you haven't interacted with or commented on RMH, except once in 439, where you softly defend his slot for a really bad reason. It doesn't occur to you that RMH is scum waiting out the pressure and laying low? It occurs to me that this is what's happening and it's your job to redirect the heat.

Why shouldn't he be a wagon?

Because nobody's defending him and he isn't giving us any content to work with. Like this is literally doing nothing. We got more content when I was being wagon'd and I'm town. Hell I'm fine with votes on me if that gives people stuff to say. My post isn't a soft defend because there's nothing in that post even remotely exonerating him or that could be seen as an attempt at town casing him.

I mentioned Luke's scum case on T3 because it got buried and I think it should be looked at more if people town read him. He's strong as town and I'm not the only one who thinks so, so his reads should be given a spotlight if there's a general consensus that we can trust him.

The only thing 456 correlates to is derailing the RMH wagon imo

I mean, yes. I don't think it's a helpful wagon to have atm unless we're feeling pretty good about voting out RMH. And tbh I'm just not seeing a strong case against him, nor a reason to end Day 1 early.

And the fact Luke's read is so far back indicates to me Roden was searching for anything to grasp onto

Luke's scum case is hardly the most interesting thing to happen in this thread and we both know that. No offense intended, Luke.

This is a bad reason to stop the wagon. It's not like the thread is waiting with bated breath for RMH to come and post - there's still plenty of conversation going about other avenues. We should be giving him a free pass to wait out the pressure. You're acting like his wagon is bad for the conversation but I see no indication that this is the case. If you see something that indicates otherwise, could you illustrate that? I'm having a hard time believing this is a real thought process.

You say your post isn't a

"soft defend"

, because nothing in it exonerates him or town cases him, but that is exactly why I say it's "soft" - if you were town casing him or arguing against scumcases that had been presented against him, that would be defending or hard defending, depending on the intensity of your post, in my book.

I scrolled backward from your post to find Luke's read and it didnt look like a case, but maybe the case came before. If you wanted people to see the case though, I would expect you to say something like "If a lot of people agree Luke is town maybe we should be taking his case on T3 more seriously: <insert quote or post number here>". It just feels like a half-assed attempt to move the wagon someplace else because you dont want to appear too eager.

If you were concerned more with finding scum than derailing RMH you would be coming harder at one of your scumreads. Right now though you're hedging between Angel and T3, probably waiting for one to take off so the pressure comes down from RMH.

I'm not sure how this last part relates to what I said. If you weren't searching for it, then you recalled it, so it must have been of some interest to you if you remembered it. I'm also not sure why you would say it should be spotlighted and that it's not very interesting in the same post.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If we get a claim I wouldn't mind hammering it even though there is time left. People can catch up at night : shrug:

Are you caught up?

No and I haven't read anything.

Please read posts 1-177 and tell me your thoughts on Marashu's vote on me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think the interaction between you and Guillotina is genuine, but idk if it's both of you or just one of you. It's not guaranteed either of you are scum either even if I'm right, since I believe third party is a possibility.

What seems fake about it?

Guillo seemed ready to death tunnel you, and I wasn't vibing with your response. But I think it makes more sense that he was just super sensitive to getting scum read for the wrong reasons, not necessarily because he's actually scum but because he didn't think your reasoning was good. He claimed to be certain you were scum but backed down when questioned more on it, which made me think it was an emotional/pride thing. Basically I do think it's possible to be a fake response but for you both to be town anyway.

You weren't vibing with

my

response, but you voted

Guillotina

, even though he is the one you perceived as having a prideful reaction that could be fake, and coming from town.

So why Guillotina rather than me?

I don't know what you could possibly be trying to imply here other than me being scum partners with you. This is not a good response.

I'm implying that you're buddying me by taking my side of a TvT fight because I've already expressed a TR on you in 177. The question sounded rhetorical, but I do want to know: why Guillotina over me?

I obviously didn't know what was going on in Guillo's head. And you already had a wagon going that I didn't particularly want to join. I don't think I had particularly complex motives there.

Simple motives do not equal town motives. It's a simple idea to buddy a townie that is TRing you, especially when other town are currently voting that townie. It makes for good towncred later down the line after I've flipped.

VOTE: Roden

I think this is a step in the right direction. Sure RMH could be a scum PR but it could just as easily be the case that RMH is town and Roden is looking for towncred for being off and against the wagon, especially with the "at the risk of incriminating myself on a red flip" post. Sounds like an informed post to make - one scum could make in anticipation of the red or green flip that they know is coming.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

like 1) that meta is so outdated
2) even if it wasn't, the tone is completely different from this game

I do not buy even for one millisecond that rodeo beleived that game said absolutely anything about my alignment here. firstly that game had a ton of people that I love. secondly, my tone is completely different and its very clear I am trying to pocket people there,

-bear bear nor

Do you think that this makes Titus scummy then?

Didn't she point Roden to that specific game?

No my momma bear just works differently. her thought process reads really genuine and I believe she believes it.

-nornorbearbear

So Titus says "Roden go look at this scum game of Noraa's, I think that it is very similar to the way she is playing this game"

And Roden, goes and looks at that game, and agrees with Titus

And your response is to say that Roden must be scum for believing this looks like that scum game, but that Titus is probably town for thinking this looks like that scum game?

Quoting for homework

[ssbm_Kyouko]

This is a bad reason to stop the wagon. It's not like the thread is waiting with bated breath for RMH to come and post - there's still plenty of conversation going about other avenues. We should be giving him a free pass to wait out the pressure. You're acting like his wagon is bad for the conversation but I see no indication that this is the case. If you see something that indicates otherwise, could you illustrate that? I'm having a hard time believing this is a real thought process.

What makes it a bad reason? Genuine question.

I think it's bad to park votes on a wagon and then do nothing to pressure or question the person there. We'd be better off using votes to pressure other people who will actually generate content, this should be obvious. Besides that, he got taken to E-1 then got threatened with an early hammer, how exactly is that a good thing for town? Could he be scum? Sure, and if he is then of course we should hammer him. But you don't even seem to have a case for him yourself, you're just going after me instead.

You say your post isn't a

"soft defend"

, because nothing in it exonerates him or town cases him, but that is exactly why I say it's "soft" - if you were town casing him or arguing against scumcases that had been presented against him, that would be defending or hard defending, depending on the intensity of your post, in my book.

You're calling it soft but you just described exactly why my post wasn't a defense. If you're gonna call something a defense, it doesn't matter if you attach "soft" to it, point out the actual defense there. Otherwise you're making an accusation with no actual basis.

I scrolled backward from your post to find Luke's read and it didnt look like a case, but maybe the case came before. If you wanted people to see the case though, I would expect you to say something like "If a lot of people agree Luke is town maybe we should be taking his case on T3 more seriously: <insert quote or post number here>". It just feels like a half-assed attempt to move the wagon someplace else because you dont want to appear too eager.

So I'm suspicious for bringing up Luke's case on T3 but also suspicious for not bringing it up enough? This is a reach tbh, it really looks like you're looking for any reason to justify going after me here.

If you were concerned more with finding scum than derailing RMH you would be coming harder at one of your scumreads. Right now though you're hedging between Angel and T3, probably waiting for one to take off so the pressure comes down from RMH.

...You mean how like you're hedging between me and RMH?

I'm not sure how this last part relates to what I said. If you weren't searching for it, then you recalled it, so it must have been of some interest to you if you remembered it.

Yes, I did recall it. That's why I...recalled it. Not sure what the "gotcha!" is supposed to be here?

I'm also not sure why you would say it should be spotlighted and that it's not very interesting in the same post.

This is purely meant to be a "gotcha!" moment lmao. Like this is blatantly just that. Does this make you scum read me then? This is another genuine question, because now I

know

you aren't being genuine with me here.

Original Post:

Also I think it should be noted just how apathetic RMH is to being wagon'd. It's NAI but I don't think we'll get any info out him if we just park votes there, even if he is scum. Does anyone have a real case on him so we can question him on things? Otherwise it would be a good idea to start poking at Kyouko again, Mastina too if Guillo is town.

I called this a bad reason and asked why he shouldn't be a wagon.

Your response:

Because nobody's defending him and he isn't giving us any content to work with. Like this is literally doing nothing. We got more content when I was being wagon'd and I'm town.

Hell I'm fine with votes on me if that gives people stuff to say

. My post isn't a soft defend because there's nothing in that post even remotely exonerating him or that could be seen as an attempt at town casing him.

I mentioned Luke's scum case on T3 because it got buried and I think it should be looked at more if people town read him. He's strong as town and I'm not the only one who thinks so, so his reads should be given a spotlight if there's a general consensus that we can trust him.

I'll say again that this is a bad reason because it allows RMH, if scum, to ride out the pressure on him. In 439, you're saying because he's apathetic to being wagoned, which is NAI, that he shouldn't be wagoned because you don't think he'll produce anything under pressure. Then in 502 you continue to explain this reasoning by saying that his wagon is doing nothing, nobody is defending him, and saying we got more content when you were wagoned and you're town. Think to yourself for a minute what kind of conclusion you should be drawing about RMH if you think that the content coming out of a slot when they are wagoned correlates to their alignment, considering what you just said about town!you.

Then with the bolded, you imply that people have nothing to say right now. This is untrue, as the conversation has continued in RMH's absence. This reads like forced LAMIST to me, and is just an attempt to derail the RMH wagon for no good reason.

Regarding the defense:

I say po-tay-to, you say po-tah-to. I've already explained that it is a defense because it serves to derail the RMH wagon. I say it is "soft", but you could also say "indirect." You disagree. Everyone else has to decide.

I think you're being inconsistent with the Luke read on T3, and with it being at 2 points in the same post it is easy to see. I thought it was suspicious because it was far back, and I questioned you about it. Your answer triggered further suspicion from me, because the reasoning you provided did not align with the actions you took in the post. If I was going to summarize it, instead of saying "suspicious for bringing up Luke's case on T3 but also suspicious for not bringing it up enough", I would say "suspicious for digging for an alternative to RMH,

then indicating a reason for digging that is inconsistent with the content of the post which proposes an alternative to RMH

." The bolded is the main problem, though I don't like the former either.

I'm not hedging, I'm just not going to waste time waiting for RMH to come back to the thread, and I'm not going to move my vote just because he's not posting. There are most likely 3 scum to catch. It would be wasteful to wait here. If he comes back and can demonstrate he isn't scum, then I'll move my vote, and at this point I would move it to you. If he lurks to the point he's replaced out, or he isn't convincingly town on his return, I won't be moving my vote before deadline crunches.

But if you recalled it, why didn't you object to my point that you were

digging

? The lack of an objection indicates you accepted it as the truth at the time you read it. You're now retconning to conform to the alternative I proposed that town!you would have done.

If it's a "gotcha" to identify an inconsistency, then yeah...

And yes, I do scumread you.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think the interaction between you and Guillotina is genuine, but idk if it's both of you or just one of you. It's not guaranteed either of you are scum either even if I'm right, since I believe third party is a possibility.

What seems fake about it?

Guillo seemed ready to death tunnel you, and I wasn't vibing with your response. But I think it makes more sense that he was just super sensitive to getting scum read for the wrong reasons, not necessarily because he's actually scum but because he didn't think your reasoning was good. He claimed to be certain you were scum but backed down when questioned more on it, which made me think it was an emotional/pride thing. Basically I do think it's possible to be a fake response but for you both to be town anyway.

You weren't vibing with

my

response, but you voted

Guillotina

, even though he is the one you perceived as having a prideful reaction that could be fake, and coming from town.

So why Guillotina rather than me?

I don't know what you could possibly be trying to imply here other than me being scum partners with you. This is not a good response.

I'm implying that you're buddying me by taking my side of a TvT fight because I've already expressed a TR on you in 177. The question sounded rhetorical, but I do want to know: why Guillotina over me?

I obviously didn't know what was going on in Guillo's head. And you already had a wagon going that I didn't particularly want to join. I don't think I had particularly complex motives there.

Also it's wild that you think I would buddy you when you

just

accused me of hedging between AW and T3. You're not keeping your own logic straight here.

I obviously didn't know what was going on in Guillo's head. And you already had a wagon going that I didn't particularly want to join. I don't think I had particularly complex motives there.

Simple motives do not equal town motives. It's a simple idea to buddy a townie that is TRing you, especially when other town are currently voting that townie. It makes for good towncred later down the line after I've flipped.

VOTE: Roden

I think this is a step in the right direction. Sure RMH could be a scum PR but it could just as easily be the case that RMH is town and Roden is looking for towncred for being off and against the wagon, especially with the "at the risk of incriminating myself on a red flip" post. Sounds like an informed post to make - one scum could make in anticipation of the red or green flip that they know is coming.

Kyouko, no matter your alignment here, I need you to know you're setting yourself up to be voted out next if you do manage to mis-elim me. Because this isn't simply you being "wrong", you've flat out created a narrative here using your own assumptions to make previous assumptions seem true. This isn't a scum case. This is a

narrative

and it is 100% going to backfire on you because it isn't even a good one. If you're town you absolutely need to back up and reassess what you're doing before you start throwing.

This is taking the timeline out of order, which is a bit egregious considering I actually included in my post the original time I placed my TR on you, which was in 177. You take my side of Guillotina vs. Kyouko

after

177, but before I start SRing you, so the timing

does

make sense for a buddying attempt. The buddying came

while I was TRing you

, and now you are saying that it is not logical for me to accuse you of buddying me

in the past

because I'm SRing you

now

. There is some crooked logic here, but it isn't mine.

Also, if I get voted out here, it's a big red flag for mastina, Gamma, and AW if they're on my elim wagon at this point, considering mastina/Gamma both saw me in Mini 2217 Owner's Market Blitz. Gamma especially as he was with me in 2213 as well. In fact one of the main reasons I caught scum!Gamma in 2217 was because of the way he ignored what he should have known about town!me from 2213, which Noraa was also in. town!mastina also correctly identified my TvT with Smoke & Mirrors (mainly Nancy Drew 39) in 2217, so it would be suspicious if she couldn't see town!me here.

T3 was also in 2217 but he died N2 (on alt "Distance") and I don't think he read after dying.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

its okay im just vt

[ssbm_Kyouko]

will try to finish my responses though

[ssbm_Kyouko]

i tried to crumb the bodyguard mason btw with my

"my team"

and

"soft defense"

to draw nk so some scum may have IDed that and pushed the mislim

[ssbm_Kyouko]

in case it isn't clear I do think Guillo and I are TvT and I did fake my responses to Guillo very shortly into the interaction to gauge their responses, as I picked up they were town quickly

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VERY IMPORTANT NOTICE. Lukewarm might be scum. Im back to that read. I understand that mom doesnt agree with me but his progression on me I dont like. A little bit of meta that is not that reliable but my main reason im second guessing mom right now is that Lukewarm's reads in games are typically pretty good. From my past games with him, I believe his reads are normally almost completely accurate with his only mistakes being due to personal bias. his mistakes in reads are almost always because the person is scum reading him. But we have not SRed him in a while here so I dont see a valid reason for him to SR me here especially after just getting out of a game with a three headed hydra of me, mom and flea. We got our asses tunneled to hell and back day one as town two shot mason vig. I dont see why he would be so eager to jump on us even if only off of that.

This whole collection of thoughts is

wild

Does she really think that I have a 100% accuracy of reading people who town read me?

But then also thinks that I automatically scum read people who scum read me?

Does she think that for some reason, her being a strong PR in our last game should make me less likely to scum read her this game?

And then, does she really believe that Scum!Luke is more likely then Town!Luke to scum read a player that is town reading them? -- And not just town reading, 100% certainty, locktown reading me?

Spoiler:

Guillo is LOCKTOWN. like 100% certainty.

Lukewarm is also town here, on the same level as guillo.

This and the post I quoted for homework earlier are good points of Luke's that need to be investigated closer, as I could have been fooled by Noraa's tone. I do lean town on AW though

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Kinda shocked I got D1ed tbh, that rarely happens to me anymore

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Roden is definitely scum here btw, they are being way too nice in their arguments

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You can look into Roden's recent games and find ones where he's flipped town and see how he treats people there vs here.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: kyouko
I can back this given I think guillo vs. kyouko is TvS (could be TvT being feels unlikely) and I’m feeling confident about guillo being town, so the scales tip out of Kyouko’s favor

DINGDINGDING

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: ssbm

VOTE: kyouko
I can back this given I think guillo vs. kyouko is TvS (could be TvT being feels unlikely) and I’m feeling confident about guillo being town, so the scales tip out of Kyouko’s favor

Compare this to scum!Gamma sheeping S&M in 2217. Search his iso for the word "bastard" to find the post.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Kinda leaning towards {ssbm, Roden, dwlee}, ATM.

don't let my flip make you think Roden was TvT

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Vote Count 1.11

Robert M Hunter

(2)

:

Angel Warriors - T3

ssbm_Kyouko

(5)

:

Robert M Hunter - mastina - Marashu - House - Gamma Emerald

Roden

(1)

:

ssbm_Kyouko

Titus

(1)

:

Dwlee99

Angel Warriors

(1)

:

Roden

mastina

(1)

:

Guillotina

Not Voting

(2)

:

Titus - Lukewarm

With 13 players in the game, 7 are required to Yeet unto the Eternal Void .

Deadline for voiding is in (expired on 2021-08-09 08:31:06)

Mod Notes

Marashu is V/LA.
Lukewarm is V/LA

Pronouns

T3- He/Him
Angel Warriors - They/Them
Roden - He/Him
ssbm_Kyouko - She/Her
Marashu - He/Him
Guillotina - He/Him
Lukewarm - He/Him
Robert M Hunter - He/Him
House - He/Him
mastina - She/Her
Titus - She/Her
Gamma Emerald - He/Him
Dwlee99 - They/Them

VOTE: Kyouko

This is E-1. I would like you to flavorclaim. Then if I say so, you should claim your actual role.

I support RMH flavorclaiming also even though he is no longer in contention. I think you're town and probably have a good reason to want the info.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Kyo do I just sheep your reads 100%?

sheep reads on roden and T3 100% -

RMH can be getting WKed by Roden here but the persistence by Roden indicates an important role perhaps. I think RMH and/or Roden should flavorclaim toMorrow if T3 asks it. Imo RMH should be the flavorclaim and if it seems scooby doo gucci jacuzzi then Roden gets the void, but it'll be up to T3.

AW I could be getting tricked by Noraa's tone

[ssbm_Kyouko]

goodnight sweet princes

[ssbm_Kyouko]

one last -pagetop-

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm assuming y'all were tracking the VC but jic I'm not actually dead can I get some twilight unvotes?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I Really think we should be looking closely at Guillotina today. I Believe that Kyouko was onto something when pushing him.

Btw kinda surprised this slipped through the cracks
I R, I B
I RB
I roleblocker?

Oh, what's funny is that's the post the living viewer as a guilty on Guillo haha, that kind of worked out

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My first 3 scumreads were 3 for 3 but I veered off before I died unfortunately

This one could have been special