mini theme 2229: MBOS 13 schweppes' pulpy potions daya 5

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What's the point of ingredients? Am I missing something?

just to induce maximum confusion?

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Thought that might've been a towntell. Disappointing.

How would it have been a towntell?

- lilith

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I've traveled here from the future to inform you that 8 is not a townslip.

-S

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Ok, Bingle already said this earlier.
You seem like you really want to hammer that point across.

Are you taking Bingle as the authority on this? All I wanted was to share my opinion, which should be given the same weight as anyone else's.

-S

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Scummy post was scummy.

You... you have played with me before, right?

-S

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Hm, I thought that you had a poor record of reading me, but that doesn't seem to be the case. So I'll walk that back a bit.

Why do you think it was scummy?

-S

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Sadly my notes got pretty scrambled from my journey back from the future. There's something in there about Retti and Datisi brutally massacring a bunch of innocent civilians, but I can't tell if that's from this game, or talking about something else...

-S

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Seemed like you were trying really hard to make people not townread me.

Yeah, that's about the kind of thing I expected. I get accused of it all the time, as both alignments. If I think something isn't towny, I will say it isn't towny, regardless of my alignment. And I don't ever do it tactically as scum, for the simple reason that nobody ever listens to me anyway.

-S

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I agree with Datisi's characterization, but I would think that the fear of being undermined by scum would be more towny than anything? Unless he's that confident in his scumgame that he expects to become townread.

-S

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Who said they would need to be panicky? It just felt sinister to me.

I'm sorry that it happened to be related to you. It was really just me searching for anything to comment on.

As I write this, I don't have any idea how you're being read (except by Datisi, obviously). That's really not my MO as scum, especially in my first post of the game.

-S

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Wouldn't scum-Norwee know that even if I get myself in hot water there's a good chance lilith comes and saves my ass and then he just looks silly?

If he was seriously trying to get me killed, that is.

-S

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A: It's not an valid reason to scumread someone. (When S_S has himself said he get's called out for this often)

Called out for it as both alignments, always spuriously. So it is in fact not a good reason.

-S

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I would very much like to hear from Titus and The Emperor now that their shepherd has left the pasture.

-S

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I do not think this exchange needs to go on any longer.

-S

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I disagree. I don't think anyone would mistake that for a useful question.

Pedit: yeah that.

-S

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I never used the word "useful".

Well, I don't understand what Dwlee would expect to gain by giving the appearance of engaging uselessly.

-S

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Unsure if the same head but Retti directly said in 259 that they thought Dwlee was trying to appear like they were here, which I assume is only an appearance scum would want to have if it helps them in some way?

-S

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………. excuse me?

- lilith

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I would recommend reading post 1 before you continue claiming that bingle has scumclaimed.

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just passing through, don't really have anything new to add - I have the same questions as most of the recent posts re: which of SS's posts bingle is talking about/why titus is pushing fairy circle/why norwee thought SS was initially scummy but not bingle for the same action/why mastina thinks bingle is scumclaiming

- lilith

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I have read it and I still think that Bingle is scumclaiming for a very specific reason that I shall not elaborate on until Bingle elaborates on the details of his role PM.

Again, i'm not wanting to share the info yet. But i feel like Bingle said something that's very ++scum.

This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!

-S

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I'm still tapping my foot waiting for people to explain what the hell they have against Bingle.

But I'm sure we could find something to talk about.

-S

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The you in 341 was Norwee, for context. SS was asking Norwee if I'm the authority on whether Norwee townslipped, which frankly seems bizarre to me.

I mean, it's bizarre to say that you are the authority on it, but that's what Norwee seemed to be implying. So I don't see what's weird about the question.

-S

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i have no spoons. sorry but I can't pretend to have spoons when I don't. the thing I'm most "passionate" about is mastina repeatedly saying that bingle has scumclaimed but I honestly don't have the energy to argue with someone who isn't going to listen to anyone else's opinion. I'm too tired for that shit.

- lilith

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like if bingle is actually scum because he has ingredients and not potions, and that's not listed in the pm's, don't you think he, as someone who is famous for mech solving, would have noticed that none of the role pm's in the original game or this game were just ingredients? so either he's telling the truth or he's making shit up that he knows people will call him out on because ??? and if he's telling the truth, what are the odds that he wouldn't know that that was a scumclaim?

- lilith

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mastina still hasn't explained why bingle scumclaimed even after multiple people have asked so that's what I'm assuming it is, and it's a bullshit reason.

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Also, lilith's seeming disinterest this game is worrying, I'm used to

more

from her

?? who are you

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I feel pretty good about norwee town. that's all I've got so far. going to sleep now.

- lilith

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Last popin was Not Good

Elaborate?

-S

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Secretiveness with reads is almost always towny.

Maybe, but that post was being secretive wrt mechanics, not reads...

-S

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Both heads apear to be here but are just doing nothing.

In fairness, I never do anything.

Also, at the time of this being written, calling lilith "here" was a stretch.

-S

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I'm not sure if I'm liking T3 because he's town, or because he's saying all the things I'm saying.

I would definitely be more comfortable with the former. In my experience T3 tends to make equally good points as both alignments, I think?

-S

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All of your posts feel weird to me. Like you're choosing to talk about things that matter very little.

Yep, nice to meet you.

Talking about things that matter is scary and best left to the grownups.

(In all seriousness, I'm very slow to form conclusions, so I generally prefer to stay on the sidelines for a while. Especially when I'm playing with lilith, who is a lot more decisive than me, but she hasn't been able to get into the game much yet.)

-S

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I don't get why he would claim that if scum.

If it's true?

-S

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As of page 14 I've disagreed with all of Fairy's reads. .-.

Hmm I think I can see T3 town. This doesn't feel like Guardians!T3.

-S

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This feels out of place. Not sure why -S is saying this if he hasn't engaged or questioned me about the earlier reasons (335 354) I gave on Bingle. This implies there aren't any in the thread

Sorry if that was unclear. I was specifically referring to the two people I complained about in 379 who said "Bingle is scum but I won't say why until later".

-S

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Usually when someone says someone else is mech scum it's best not to make them elaborate.

But it's an open setup and it's literally impossible for him to be mech scum. So either mastina has some brilliant logic that nobody else saw, or she's mistaken (or scum), and we're not going to figure out which until she explains it.

-S

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This is absolutely awful and I pray Momcinda resolves her tech issues soon so that we may take a united stance upon this.

I mean, it is objectively true, as far as it goes. If you've already seen hydra dissonance be townread, it's the easiest thing in the world to pretend to do.

That doesn't mean that you're scummy for it, but I'm in agreement with Norwee that it's not towny.

-S

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That I can see your awful assault upon is is based upon false dissonance and the absence of Momcinda.

Oh, for crying out loud. Disagreeing with one read on you is not an "awful assault". Norwee doesn't know you well enough to know if fake dissonance is a good tactic

for you specifically

-- he's only thinking of it in general.

I don't know you well enough to say that either, but it doesn't seem to me that it's especially likely to get you in trouble? Like if anything it gives you more flexibility since you can ultimately come down on whichever side you like and say one head convinced the other.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

would love to see more Actual content from s_s

ha.

Your best shot at this is asking me pointed questions about specific posts/interactions, I guess?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Nobody knows how myself and Momcinda operate in a hydra pair - so yes, that cannot be read, and the dissonance is NAI.

I think we are on the same page, then. I certainly don't think your dissonance is scum indicative. (And I believe Norwee also feels that way?)

-S

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right. boring question first - feelings on my slot?

I donut know. I am happy that you stood up for me on my entrance, but I'm not sure you would know how bad that could have gotten if nobody had, so I can't give you that many points for it.

Norwee shitfight has minor TvT vibes, but not incredibly so? I guess "deliberately provoking a fight to distract the thread" is one of those thing that you would do as scum that most people wouldn't, but picking someone who's liable to jump into a tunnel is risky.

I think it's good form that you voted me and then later asked for my thoughts. It shows at least some level of actually caring about having an accurate read on me.

Retti feels like basically a mini-you. Given that, and without experience, I don't trust my ability to read them at all.

Overall maybe mild townlean?

-S

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Like this post.

Why? It wasn't even accurate.

-S

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What do you think of my hero solve?

It makes me want to townread you for reasons that are kinda hard to explain. Maybe just that I can understand how you came to the conclusion you did, it feels pretty organic?

Hero solves are of course always long shots, but I don't see any particular reason why it's unreasonable.

-S

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@S,

Do you disagree with any of my reads? If so, why?

Well, I said I had a mild townread on T3; the post I quoted seems like a town thought that scum-T3 might not think to say.

Norwee has felt typical of town-him but I don't think he's really out of his scumrange at all? I don't know if I've seen him as scum, so I'm not really sure there.

-S

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I've decided upon return that if you read t3 ISO you will understand what I mean by sorty.

Vague statements aren't good enough given you have virtually no content until now. How did you form this read? Hoping we fill in blanks after you suggest an answer is no bueno.

Why do you have an issue with dwlee here (which I think is a valid concern and am fine with the line of questioning) but you have no issue with mastina being entirely opaque about her scumread on bingle?

mastina still hasn't explained why bingle scumclaimed even after multiple people have asked so that's what I'm assuming it is, and it's a bullshit reason.

mastina's reasoning is pretty clear. By claiming no potions, Bingle is free to shoot who he wants. I'm not sure I agree but it feels like town mastina.

her reasoning wasn’t clear to me and in fact she has refused to elaborate even after multiple people asked. do you have a post where you saw her say this?

are you saying that anyone who claims to have no potions must be scum? how is claiming no potions a scumclaim?

- lilith

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still not loving the s_s/lilith hydra, lilith's jump on page 22 in feels like scum annoyed that they're being pushed. and would love to see more Actual content from s_s.

so basically damned if I do, damned if I don’t. when I’m not posting because I have no spoons, I’m called out as “not trying hard enough” or “being absent.” but if I force myself to post when I have no spoons, you think it’s scummy because I’m upset that I feel like I’m being forced to post when I don’t have anything useful to say. cool. bye.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@titus

I have at least one ingredient I wouldn’t mind giving to basically anyone. It is not mayonnaise.

Oh you have ingredients in your role PM?

VOTE: Bingle

Pretty sure that's a scumclaim from Bingle.

She never said anything about the scumclaim being due to claiming no potions. Where did you get this from?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why do you have an issue with dwlee here (which I think is a valid concern and am fine with the line of questioning) but you have no issue with mastina being entirely opaque about her scumread on bingle?

also please answer this

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what is bad about my posting.

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I’m honestly doing the best I can with the mental capacity I have atm. sorry if that’s not enough for you. I can’t change how much mental capacity I have even if I want to.

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um, I’m not… mad…? where did I express anger at you specifically for your read?

I also wouldn’t characterize any of what I said as “throwing a fit,” I just vehemently disagree with mastina’s stance and she refuses to explain it, and it makes me tired to even imagine arguing with her to change her mind, but without her explaining what she thinks is scumclaiming the ideas I posted are all I can imagine that she means by that, which I, again, don’t see as being a scumclaim at all

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

like… I don’t have a better response to “your posts feel like you’re scum annoyed for being pushed” other than like, yeah I think anyone in my shoes would be frustrated, but also I don’t feel like I was annoyed in the earlier posts to begin with, and now I guess I am a bit frustrated that it feels like you assigned motivations to my posts that weren’t there and that I don’t have the words to explain why it’s not how you’re describing it

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

can you explain what about my prior posts made you think “scum annoyed for being pushed”?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

but also, if these are the two options that I can make happen atm, I don’t see why I should bother engaging with you further because it seems like you’ve made up your mind that all of the modes I can be in are scummy

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

maybe I should have just ignored your post completely then, but I felt like I was going to get flak for not responding to you so I decided to respond to it. would you have found it more or less suspicious if I ignored you completely?

- lilith

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what do you want me to do, blow up into an argument with you? this clearly isn’t going anywhere that will get you to a place where you’re correctly reading me, why should I waste more of the little energy I have trying to argue with you about my being town when it will become clearer if you just leave me to do my thing?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I can't really discuss this without knowing what you mean by guardians. Meta is crap.

This game. And no it isn't

-S

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I've played 1 game with you and that was us as scumpartners so uh I'm not sure where you're getting town!me makes equally good points unless you know I'm town this game.
Although secret alts exist.

We've played together more than that, though I think the only time you were town was DEFCON. Regardless, I guess saying you make equally good points is not totally accurate-- really what I meant was that you make good points as scum. I would assume if you can do that you can also make good points as town, though you were pretty exe-baity in DEFCON.

-S

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er, no. the ingredients lists literally have zero impact on the game. honestly I’m confused how you can have an ingredient without a potion.. but then none of this is making much sense to me.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Is this a lillith post or an SS post?

Lilith. I rarely forget to sign (and I believe I almost always notice it when I do).

Also hi!

-S

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But SS pinged me hard by appearing to bring an end to the head to head without coming to any real conclusion as a result where others did

As someone who has gotten into many heated back-and-forths and has trouble knowing when to quit, being able to end an argument without reaching a conclusion is very valuable.

It's a little different because I wasn't involved in the argument, but the spirit is very much the same. That conversation wasn't helping anyone read anyone, it was just shitting up the thread.

-S

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Have you played with -S before?

A couple times, yes. We've seen all configurations except town-T3/scum-S_S.

-S

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the way you tried to end it made me think you had formed some kind of read, the way you framed it.

Really? Didn't I just say "this doesn't need to go on any longer"? That doesn't imply anything about the value of the past exchange, only the projected value of the future exchange (which is low).

-S

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Have you ever seen scum Norwegian have this kind of fire in his veins?

I have never seen scum Norwee at all, I don't think.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

like if bingle is actually scum because he has ingredients and not potions, and that's not listed in the pm's, don't you think he, as someone who is famous for mech solving, would have noticed that none of the role pm's in the original game or this game were just ingredients? so either he's telling the truth or he's making shit up that he knows people will call him out on because ??? and if he's telling the truth, what are the odds that he wouldn't know that that was a scumclaim?

The scumclaim was more in insinuating there was a mechanic present that isn't actually present; claiming an ingredient as if we could use an ingredient to craft a potion when there is no such mechanic. Beyond that mishap, there's how I genuinely don't believe that a potionless individual as town would have an ingredient in their role pm. Heck, even in Bingle's attempt to clear himself of the scumclaim:

@mod: would it be possible for you to generate a potionless sample town pm and a sample town pm with two pain potions and a potion of harmography? If possible, could you generate the same sample pms for scum, redacting non public information as necessary?

sample potionless town PM:

Spoiler:

welcome to mystery box of silver 13! you are a

townie

, however you do not have any potions. to simulate part of the potion drinking experience, we have provided you with a

dangerous crate

full of

cracked and broken potion bottles

. however you are not permitted to do anything with this crate because it is

stolen

from the

Schweppes Broken Potion Bottle Factory

who have a

warrant

.

you win when all threats to the town are eliminated. please confirm by telling me your alignment & promising not to tell Schweppes about the stolen bottles

Do you see potion ingredients in this potionless PM?

I don't.

What I think happened is that there was a mention of ingredients outside of Bingle's available potions as scum--either as part of his genuine role PM or in a fakeclaim. And that Bingle thought that the mention of ingredients there was a mechanic in town PMs when it isn't. A perspective slip born from a scum role PM, and one that is exactly the mistake a mechanical scum player can make.

Just because a player is a mechanical player does not make them omniscient when it comes to mechanics. They can take precautions, but they can make mistakes from faulty assumptions, poor mod clarification, etc. There's numerous ways for a mechanical player to make genuine mechanical mistakes where their mechanical prowess rather than serving as an asset actually backfires. And I believe that Bingle's ingredients with no potions claim is precisely that.

However, even beyond the scumslip: I'm like 80% sure that this is Bingle's scumplay anyway. No scumslip necessary, just off of his dayplay.

Why?

Because I have a fairly good idea of how Bingle plays as town on D1 specifically, and this is very much not how Bingle plays D1 as town. In fact the very things people are townreading him for are the things that make him be scum, here. (Think an old mastina flowchart tell of sorts. If Bingle looks strongly town on D1, it's because he's scum.)

Obviously I can elaborate on this if needed but suffice to say I'm never not voting Bingle. (I mayyyyyyyyyy compromise on a different scumread if needed but I really don't want Bingle to get away here.)

making a mistake about mechanics isn't a scumclaim. in fact, I'd argue that it's the opposite of a scumclaim, because scum!bingle would have seen the sample role PM and realized already that the "poison" he's talking about was just flavor, since he would have had access to both the sample role Pm without potions and the one with potions. ingredients outside of potions

are not a mechanic in the game,

and they wouldn't have shown up in a scum role pm or a fakeclaim pm because they CAN'T by the nature of the setup. (lol also there is no fakeclaim role pm other than the sample pm's that schadd just showed us, this is an open setup that is entirely "randomly" generated.)

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Bingle is also aware that as a semi-nightless setup, losing a scum member, even a functionally powerless one, is a fairly significant blow and he'd have tried harder to avoid the yeet. Although you could argue that his posting was him trying to avoid the yeet.

I am in fact arguing precisely that, actually.

Well, close enough to that.

Bingle has never been this town as town on D1. He is, very deliberately, very specifically, putting in more effort than normal.

His mechsolving is nai, sure. But I'm not bothered by the mechsolve work he put in. He'd put in that mechsolve work regardless of his alignment.

What I more mean is the likes of this:

All of these lines of interaction seem to me like they're aimed at going no where. You've got the noncommital question about a 'townslip' that has already been called out (It wasn't a townslip, btw, it was a question scumNorwee could also have had), a "That's NAI.", generic comments about nothing (meta can be good), and a nothingburger response to Norwee's meta. Also, the mechstuff, even if prompted.

It feels more like she wants to be seen as doing something more than actually wanting to do something.

This is a level of hard push that is rare from Bingle as town--not impossible, but rare. The reason why? He said it himself:

OTOH, I'm in a lobby that has 0 names I'm amazing at reading.

Bingle doesn't have an amazing ability at reading names in this lobby, so the strong push on ta vera is out of place.

As far as towncasing, I've spoken a little about Emp, but I suppose I could go into detail.

DR Green has been waffling, but not in a way that makes it seem like they're willing to take any side in an argument. They have consistently had the most salient opinions on IGA fmpov and the things they've poked at all seem to be going somewhere (contrast ta vera). 109 for example looked like Dats was actually trying to find motivation. 144 is an admittedly weak push, but when asked about it Dats didn't back down and elaborated on his thoughts. There was a train of logic behind the push AND the followthrough to actually try to get discussion going from it. And then he went and turned the confrontation into a chance at reading me, not an accusation but an honest attempt at reaching out.

125 was also fairly town in that it's something I don't think scum thinks to fake. If scum is going to put the effort into pushing lurkers, I'd expect it to be on a lurker that actually exists in the game. "But Bingle," you say, "The fact that Dats thought Dunn WAS in the game makes that NAI!" Sure. But scum also doesn't make that post having realized he isn't. Scum either drops the Dunnstral case anyway and we all point and laugh and say "Silly Datisi, there's no Dunn in this game, you must be town." or scum just leaves the whole thing alone and doesn't post it at all. The former would be better for optics and the latter would be better for effort. Instead, Datisi is being naturally open with his approach to the thread, meaning he doesn't have the intention of hiding things.

Teal Dear:

GCB has consistently shown a town approach to the game.

This is a second read that Bingle has gone out of his way to give--on D1. The read on ta vera was already a stretch and this stretches it even further. Bingle is usually far more, for lack of better terminology, reserved when it comes to reads. He doesn't usually go in this much depth. Once was already unusual. Twice even more so.

The main things I like from Emp, along with his back and forth with ta vera which went over several posts and mostly boiled down to prompting her for actual content while she was catching up. I disagree that 8 was town indicative (Norwee is smart enough to ask non incriminating setup clarification questions publicly as scum) but the thought process that it would be town indicative isn't an unreasonable one. Further, the thought process of "I think thing X is town, Person Y thinks thing X is town, and I don't see a reason for Person Y to point out that thing X is town" is altogether far more towny than the generic "I think thing X is town and Person Y thinks thing X is town". It shows a level of paranoia as to GCB's motivations that I think is unlikely to be faked by scum as a throwaway read in the early days.

The wrongmeta application to me similarly makes sense. DNC 2 was one of my only real recent scumgames (the only other one that pops into mind is the game about Russia and nukes where I repped into a literally solved gamestate and cried a little that I didn't get to play scum with Ali for longer) and he's 100% right that my entrance there was very different to my entrance here. Comparatively I have quite a few recent towngames that are more in line with this game. He didn't take into account that DNC 2 I mostly avoided mechspeak because the majority of the game had just had the mech speak conversation and thus didn't need it again, as I pointed out by telling him to look at the contemporary game of lovers and losers 2 where I didn't engage in mechspeak because we accidentally broke the game and had to reroll based on leveraging mod info to locktown a player. (Which, to be fair, was 50% my fault and 50% llamafluff's fault.) In both cases I didn't mechspeak because I already had.

Still though, his conclusions were supported by the given evidence, which he definitely went to go find, and he didn't appear to be blowing smoke up my ass (which would be unlikely from someone who meta'd me as I'm LESS likely to townread people who townread me). The waffling on me seems like genuine cogdis where he's trying to reconcile two different opinions and can't quite line them up, which is very hard to fake well as scum.

But then he does it a third time.

I frankly do not believe that Bingle as town cares this much and puts this much effort in as town. Not from a player who in the past, as town, has repeatedly told me over multiple games something to the effect of "I am lazy on D1", so to speak. Bingle as town does not effort this much. He doesn't get these strong of reads, described this strongly. As town, Bingle is far more "reactive", but in this game Bingle is being proactive. You can see this in full effect by taking a look at his iso here. His cases in that game, such as they were, were pretty exclusively one-liners. The closest he got to cases not one-liners was him giving quotes (mostly in spoilers) to give context and elaborating on statements he had already previously made. Very very reactive.

The same holds true for this game, too--Bingle was fairly casual and reactive in nature, rather than proactive and serious.

And the same holds true for this game as well--Bingle was casual and reactive. His posts were short and usually one-liners with little in the way of casework done to look town.

Every time Bingle has been town has been similar. Fairly casual, lighthearted, and reactive. Giving reads and reasons but not bothering with a proper readslist with detailed lengthy explanations on players.

The fact that he's doing so in this game is, explicitly, because he is scum.

i genuinely do like the towncases on me / emperor

The towncases are good and genuine which is why you and Emperor are both probably town.

The towncases being good however does not make Bingle town. Quite the opposite in fact; that much effort to towncase town slots is something Bingle never does as town but there's a clear incentive to do as scum.

Neither you nor Emperor were likely to be eliminated. Both slots were fairly townread. Not universally, but townread enough that Bingle towncasing you is a zero-risk thing as scum. In fact from a risk-reward perspective, it ONLY makes sense as scum.

Why?

As town, why would Bingle need to towncase slots that weren't likely to be the elimination? The slots are already fairly townread so Bingle doesn't need to go out of his way to put the time and effort into towncasing them. He gains nothing from towncasing slots already widely townread, but he loses time which could be spent elsewhere.

Bingle's effort as town would be better spent on towncasing slots that ARE likely to be eliminated without him towncasing them.

As scum, why would Bingle towncase slots that weren't likely to be the elimination? Specifically BECAUSE they weren't likely to be the elimination. Bingle as scum towncasing them loses nothing. He's not shutting down potential mislims due to them being fairly townread because while there may be one or two slots suspicious of you/Emperor, there's not the needed six to back eliminations there. But what does he gain? Towncred for :effort: in towncasing slots that are town.

this is the first thing you've said about bingle that actually makes sense to me as a reason to scumread him.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

We've seen all configurations except town-T3/scum-S_S.

Until this game it would seem.

yeah no.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I haven't read most (any) of the long posts. I won't have time to catch up fully until next week probably

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

This is probably just standard moon logic town!Titus.

It definitely feels typical of town-her. I don't think I've seen her as scum in a while; does she do a good job of replicating it?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

You know what?
VOTE: tldoe

The limit does ot exist?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Would you be willing to vote TLDNE wjith me?

you’ve explicitly stated you don’t have any actual reasons to scumread us other than poe. so why are you inviting others to join our wagon?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I'm not lilith but I think Bingle's supposed scumslip was actually a townslip.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don't want to vote Titus, I don't want to vote Bingle. I trust Norwee and by extension his townreads (Emperor, GCB, mastina).

Leaving Dwlee, T3, RCE, Fairy Circle.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

the initial bingle posting his ingredient or the realization bit about ingredients not being consistent?

I think all of it points pretty strongly toward him actually having no potions. When I say townslip I was assuming that scum got a factional stock of potions like the last game; I will have to double-check that, because I realize that I might be wrong about it.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think bingle and mastina are both north of null. like SS said, I actually think bingle townslipped, not scumslipped, if I had to choose between the two. And while I absolutely hate mastina’s reasoning, I think it’s probably too angleshooty to be scum because scum!mastina would know that it’s not a scumslip and she would probably realize people would realize it’s not a scumslip.

my vote would go somewhere in {fairy circle, t3, titus} I think.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Okay, yeah, I was wrong, but I think the odds of scum having no potions are still pretty low.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

He said he has an ingredient without a potion. Schadd's example strongly suggested that people with no potions are flavored as having some item that is useless.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@rce

er, no. the ingredients lists literally have zero impact on the game. honestly I’m confused how you can have an ingredient without a potion.. but then none of this is making much sense to me.

- lilith

The sample potionless role PM matches mine except I got poison as an ingredient instead of a stolen crate. Poison is included as an ingredient in the Harmography potion (and only the harmography potion) in the OP. That's why I thought there might be a way to combine ingredients into potions.

First:

My role PM had poison specifically called an ingredient, in lieu of the crate of bottles.

Second:

Yes. Given the information from my role PM, I DID assume there was an additional mechanic of potion ingredient combination. That's pretty self evident. Entirely lacking in your questioning is why that's a specifically scum misunderstanding.

Third:

Yes. I've explicitly been using tools from my scum toolbox. Because I'm not a shitty player and my scum toolbox and town toolbox are remarkably similar toolboxes. (FWIW, my town toolbox is a subset of my scum toolbox, because there are some things that are effective as scum (laying false associatives, for example) that just don't have a town use). Your argument is about as relevant as arguing that me buddying someone is scum indicative, when more than most the way to read me is by looking at my results. Ask yourself this: Am I driving this thread in a direction where it is easier or harder for town to solve it?

Now that we've got that out of the way:

What do you make of Titus/RCE/Dwlee?

Dwlee specifically has been giving me flashbacks to Draft, where he was scum defending me from Titus in lieu of defending himself, and I want to know if you see the same thing.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

was that not me who said that?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

idk anything about the potion distribution

It's in the OP. Scum are significantly more likely to have potions than town.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

s_s, you wouldn't try to fake a townslip this dumb at this ungodly hour of day 1, right?

Can't say, sadly.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

was that not me who said that?

- lilith

maybe lol, i already had my change of heart I dont want to murder your slot.

What made you change your mind?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

er… what do you mean by a “bull read”?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Does she usually do VCA on D1?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Insomuch as VCA is worth anything at all, it isn't worth much with no flips, I would say.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Green Cap Boys
The Emperor
T3
NorwegianboyEE
Dwlee99
Bingle

RCEnigma
Titus
mastina
Fairy Circle

Are we just chopped liver?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Where I stand

LOCK TOWN never touch

Norwee
Mastina
Emperor

town. May or May not be fading

Ta Vera
Dweelee*
T3*
Green caps

STRONG ODDS WITH FLEA

Titus

left

Boongle

*conditional read, moves up with the nontouchables with a Titus red flip

My god, we are chopped liver.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If anyone touches my top tier, ill be pissed

This is at least mildly +town, I'd say.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

this is mildly pinging my "scum weakly defending a townie getting run up" tell but /shrug *maybe* i'm tunneled at this point

Can I negate that by saying I figured someone was going to have that reaction?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

couldn’t talk about it until now - FGO just ended and that was a super major source of anxiety for me. now that it’s over I should be way more present here because my brain isn’t busy crying over being the conftown in F3. give me a few hours to bask in the glow (and also, like, work) but I should be here tonight and able to read thoroughly.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Screw trying to be organized and logical, current feelings are that I'd bet on at least 2 scum in here:

RCEnigma
mastina
Titus
TLDNE

Think some of the people there are getting far too much leeway simply for having strong opinions rather than actually being towny.

-R

can you be more specific about who in this group is "getting far too much leeway for having strong opinions"?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Do you normally do this? I've never seen you sheep someone you trust like this before unless you agree with the reasoning

I do it, like, every other game.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

sorry - meant to fully catch up tonight but I'm still emotionally really winded and my brain is absolute mush from reading the entirety of FGO like twenty times in the span of a few days. sorry the timing is really awful. I promise I will do shit d2

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Also

Ftr

RCE just got caught up in a lie

-momcinda

what lie?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

SS told me he thought this might be town!titus

I haven't played with titus very much and will readily admit I have no idea how to read her. none of what she's posted has made much sense to me, but I think she's a person who I will never "get" and I form most of my reads by "getting" people, so I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt for d1

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I would really like to not be flashwagoned tho

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Also

Ftr

RCE just got caught up in a lie

-momcinda

what lie?

- lilith

The team is actually highly likely {bingle, titus, RCE} and I've been spending what time I have trying to convince faer of that.

Bingle, T3, and RCE are the three who reacted most strongly to my thinking there was two scum.

T3 is going harder rhen either of them which means he would be in the worst position for his attack on me and the slip while Bingle ane RCE are just going "yeah that"

Bingles push against dweelee and reasons for him caring about dweelee shooting titus is wonky because nobody (i think) has pledged support to his pain potion usage at night.

Titus defense of us is weird considering we are still in her PoE and she is angling to line up the eliminations of both our slot and T3.

With that in mind, her attack on T3 is janky as all fuck because as town, jn the past 2 games, she was ghe biggest defender of T3 and made it known that T3 is highly likely ever going to only be a policy lim.

T3 hasnt acted too different from this game than he has in any other game so there isnt a reason for Titus to SR him.

The green bois could be scum but idk. They are only scum if one in my solve is wrong. They've had a good enough presence but the "one on the team push, the other WKs push" isn't that uncommon of a tactic.

RCE:

"Yeah thats a fake slip. Votes fairies"

Me: oh I think I'm hammered. Glhv, this is where we should focus on

Rce: ??? You disappeared yo so...

Me: yeah I said i was busy, still am

RCE: them saying why they arent here and not saying anything makes them scum

My phone is dying but the lie stems from his response to this post

I don't really understand? where's the lie?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I am definitely leaning killing FC over Titus. I will be around near deadline, I think lilith will be too?

I asked her about the vote, we'll see if we can put a vote down tonight.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

You know what, no regrets if Titus flips town. There is no way she actually believes the things she's saying.

That is not as scum-indicative as you would think.

Actually, it is, just for you

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Well now with that pedit I just look silly.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Can you give me the tl;dr?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Are you asking for the Titus case? I don't think she believes what she is saying so she is evil

I was, yeah. Why would she say something as scum that she doesn't appear to believe?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

You said she doesn't believe what she's saying-- I assume this is because of all the weird angles she's taking. Why wouldn't she just take normal angles as scum, to avoid attention?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Because that could also be called out for her just parroting consensus

Is... is that a tell that works?

Consensus is consensus because a bunch of people agree. Pushing someone for agreeing with consensus seems pretty silly.

Regardless, you are right that the argument is mildly circular. But, your argument does depend on her not realizing that what she's doing would draw negative attention, which feels pretty unrealistic given how experienced of a player she is.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

*casually walks in with a coffee in hand*

so, like, what's the vote count, when's the deadline, and why are we not killing the nonexistent limit?

-D

I would love to know what you mean by “nonexistent” - we’ve both been in the thread, albeit not spamposting or wallposting. why do you take such issue with us being “nonexistent” when there are 5 other slots with

fewer

posts than us, to the point that this has now become the main focus of your recent content? It’s like you don’t have anything better to do than repeatedly push a scumread predicated only on activity

I’ve also explained why I’ve been so absent and why I couldn’t talk about it before. the timing sucks but D2 I will actually be around and mentally able to engage and read the thread. Continuing to harp on things that were out of my control - and I think understandably resulted in my lack of engagement here - isn’t a good look for you. it also feels like you’ve both stopped solving since other people started arguing. I’m not really sure why people are townreading you to begin with.. as to me this doesn’t feel all that different from potions 1 retti and datisi.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Everything within me screams T3 is scum.
They're misleading, twisting and manipulating so many things and are doing everything in their power to set up chain mislims.

-F

can you quote the posts where t3 does these things?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I swear to god, if we let scum!Titus get away because "sCuM!tItUs pLaYs bEtTeR tHaN tHiS" i’m going to scream.

And if we execute town!Titus because "lol different = scum" I'm going to laugh.

Differing personalities, I guess.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’ve also explained why I’ve been so absent and why I couldn’t talk about it before. the timing sucks but D2 I will actually be around and mentally able to engage and read the thread. Continuing to harp on things that were out of my control - and I think understandably resulted in my lack of engagement here - isn’t a good look for you.

+1

If I were pushing someone for seemimg disengaged and then they revealed that they were the deciding vote in a secret alt game F3, I'm pretty sure I would drop that push immediately.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

That is just not a good faith interpretation of the argument against her.ii

I know, it wasn't meant to be, it was just a joke. Neither was Norwee's.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

jesus fuck, aren't you desperate to shade me.

Aren't you desperate to shade us? That's a very understandable mistake. I parsed it that way initially, I had to reread it a couple of times to get it.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

the way that you're latching onto things like this and spewing ate while not actually offering content to solve looks bad.

There's an unspoken implication in lilith's post that it's too late in the day for her to start really solving-- she's already said that she'll dig into the game tomorrow. Do you not accept that?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

*casually walks in with a coffee in hand*

so, like, what's the vote count, when's the deadline, and why are we not killing the nonexistent limit?

-D

I would love to know what you mean by “nonexistent” - we’ve both been in the thread, albeit not spamposting or wallposting. why do you take such issue with us being “nonexistent” when there are 5 other slots with

fewer

posts than us, to the point that this has now become the main focus of your recent content? It’s like you don’t have anything better to do than repeatedly push a scumread predicated only on activity

I’ve also explained why I’ve been so absent and why I couldn’t talk about it before. the timing sucks but D2 I will actually be around and mentally able to engage and read the thread. Continuing to harp on things that were out of my control - and I think understandably resulted in my lack of engagement here - isn’t a good look for you. it also feels like you’ve both stopped solving since other people started arguing. I’m not really sure why people are townreading you to begin with.. as to me this doesn’t feel all that different from potions 1 retti and datisi.

- lilith

i mean that your name is "the limit does not exist". it's called a joke. jesus fuck, aren't you desperate to shade me.

but if you wanna go that route, fine. you feel flat as fuck and for someone who's supposed to be very easy to obvtown, it's a horrible look. i don't care you had the other game where you were in f3. i don't care about who has more or fewer posts, when most of your posts were either screaming at mastina, throwing a fit at anyone looking at you for acting scummy, or s_s throwing out unmemorable comments. the way that you're latching onto things like this and spewing ate while not actually offering content to solve looks bad.

but you're free to actually offer some content and lay out how this is apparently not all that different from us last game.

-D

ok I feel like I’ve been pretty calm and not AtEing at all. I never screamed at mastina and I don’t think I threw a fit at any point. it feels like any time I even dare to interact with you, you get so rude and condescending that it’s impossible to engage. and like you’re basically throwing a tantrum because I have doubts about you… which, isn’t that exactly what you’re angry at me for doing supposedly?

I’ve literally been doing the best I can. all I wanted was for you to leave me alone. instead it’s like the last several times you’ve posted, you just keep harping on things that I couldn’t change and being snarky for no reason. when you say “nonexistent limit,” the first thing that comes to mind is that the focus of your recent content has been how supposedly flat and horribly my play is, of course I assume that’s what you’re talking about! You don’t sound like you’re joking when you keep shading our slot left and right, I’m not sure how I was supposed to distinguish this from all the other times you’ve shaded us for not meeting your standards of content.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t have anything specific to point to, and I didn’t follow potions 1 super closely, but what I do remember is that retti and datisi were basically townread right away and then coasted on that early townread. which to me feels similar to how they were super active at the beginning of this game, everyone said they townread them, then they kind of disappeared and feels like they’ve stopped solving. like I said, a lot of the recent content has felt like shading our slot.

can people explain why they’ve locktowned gcb?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

why is fairy voting titus? I thought they were townreading each other?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t have anything specific to point to, and I didn’t follow potions 1 super closely, but what I do remember is that retti and datisi were basically townread right away and then coasted on that early townread. which to me feels similar to how they were super active at the beginning of this game, everyone said they townread them, then they kind of disappeared and feels like they’ve stopped solving. like I said, a lot of the recent content has felt like shading our slot.

can people explain why they’ve locktowned gcb?

- lilith

this isn’t to say that I’m scumreading gcb…. I just don’t see why everyone has assumed they’re town and I think there’s a decent possibility that the same thing has happened as in potions 1. I have a kind of vibe feeling in my head of how people have played in certain games, and the retti/datisi vibe doesn’t seem different enough from potions 1 to me to merit me townreading them (among other factors)

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

idk I didn’t really take it as a joke in any sense since datisi has basically gone off on me any time I’m mentioned

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

can you explain why you think norwee is scum? did I miss you explaining that before?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

idk I didn’t really take it as a joke in any sense since datisi has basically gone off on me any time I’m mentioned

- lilith

It was a joke playing off your account name. Think your reaction has been over the top, though.

-R

sorry, what about my reaction was over the top?

I have actual concerns about datisi continuing to focus on me

like I’ve said, datisi seems to be angry at me any other time I’ve been mentioned, so I am unsure how I was supposed to distinguish a joke from all of the other times he’s railed at me for being horrible and flat

I was in no way angry or upset, but said I’d like to know why he keeps focusing on us when there are other slots who have done less. I genuinely apologize if I came across rude but I don’t think my reaction was over the top.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

It was a joke playing off your account name. Think your reaction has been over the top, though.

If her reaction is over the top, it's because Datisi responded to her misunderstanding it in bad faith and riled her up.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Like that was a very clear miscommunication. Jumping immediately to the conclusion that it was an intentional shade is just terrible.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

using my class break to respond to 1427:

you feel like you've been using ate plenty this game. maybe "screaming" isn't the right word but you were getting annoyed at people scumreading you. i'm not throwing a tantrum because you're scumreading me, my issue is that the scumread comes out of nowhere at 5 to 12 (i'd kinda expect town!you, if you really thought this, to have called it out a bit earlier too?), is attempted to be justified by some paper thin meta, and looks fake as hell.

i skimmed my recent iso. painting it as "the last few times you've posted, your focus was my play" is flat out wrong. i don't know if it's you genuinely not following the game and blindly omgusing or purposefully trying to paint me (or us, ig) as some mad tldne tunneler. but it's wrong. the "i just wanted you to leave me alone" part feels very much like ate.

-D

- “super vague feeling” isn’t usually enough for me to talk about.
- “super vague feeling that they should be null” is even less of a thing for me to talk about.
- you both hadn’t really been in thread for a few days so I also didn’t have a lot of recent content to go on nor did I feel very strongly about any of it
- now that you have showed up since then and because it feels like you’ve been focusing disproportionately on us, I feel like my feelings have actually become doubts and not just “super vague feeling”

I never said that it was all of your content, I just said it was a large part of it.

you’re not even up for elim, what motivation do you think I would have for supposedly faking thoughts with “paper thin meta”?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’m…. not even angry or upset. it really feels like datisi is repeatedly accusing me of screaming and throwing things when I don’t feel like I have at all. and also there was a situation in the past that was kind of similar (he thought I was angry about something and I wasn’t angry at all), I think I was town, so not sure why datisi thinks that’s so strongly scum-indicative either

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t feel really strongly about anyone. I’d probably vote titus if I were on my own but SS is townreading her I think.

We should decide on what to do tonight and get a shot pool

Personal opinion is it should be in Titus/Limit, if Titus gets flipped here and is red then Limit/RCE. If green...I don't know.

-R

why us & RCE if titus flips red?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

you’re not even up for elim, what motivation do you think I would have for supposedly faking thoughts with “paper thin meta”?

pretending you're town and have thoughts on the game? setting up a push on my slot tomorrow? like what kinda question is this

and yeah, in the past there was a game where i thought you were scum (idk if it was bc you were angry or for something else, i'll check tomorrow if we're both alive) but the thing is, your response to me to my scumread in that game actually felt townie? though i will take a look at that game

-D

surely your impression of my scumgame isn’t so low that you think I would resort to making up bullshit I can’t support with anything?

here’s the series of posts:

Spoiler:

in other news, i am still not townreading limit. like, i feel like town!lilith should be obvtown when town, and i am still not feeling it here? like i know yesterday i unvoted them after discussion, but having slept on it i'm not *feeling* it. like, i couldn't point at a single thing and say "this is scummy", it just feels like overall she's struggling to replicate her usual town-self?

?????? ok vote me again then

lilith, do you know what a "nullread" is

it was a naked vote on dwlee, so I also am very skeptical that this was supposed to be some kind of planned entrance that overshadowed his usual MO of joking with me

this reminds me of something - in a different game, i was playing with a person who i usually always vote and joke around with in rvs. that game, my entrance was a naked vote on another person rather than the usual rvs-joke-vote. later on, we started scumreading each other, and one of his points was that i didn't do my usual rvs-joke. we were both town. so like, i feel like there shouldn't be too much weight put on someone's entrance like this?

Do you think it is possible that cakes was avoiding interacting with me, maybe hoping that I wouldn’t pay that much attention to him? The lack of interaction in rvs is only one part of that. The lack of response to my vote is a second part of that. When he finally did respond to me, his initial response was defensive (“I do x thing”) and didn’t question my motivation. Then his answer about not finding me suspicious and therefore responding only defensively feels like he made it up after the fact to explain why he hadn’t been treating me with paranoia. Can you give thoughts on all of that instead of one post I made with the specific purpose of picking gamma’s argument apart?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i mean, sure, it's possible. when you write it out neatly like that, i can agree cakez looks bad. i'm not saying he doesn't. but i already gave you my thoughts - yes i agree he doesn't look great, but i just don't agree with a "scumread" because i do not believe in it. trust me, i am *acutely* aware how big of a hole i'm digging myself into right now in the event that he flips red, which may not be unlikely. but i cannot lie and tell you that i have a scumread on cakez when i just don't.

also i'm in the process of questioning him about it, so. no need to get angry so quickly.

confused and frustrated, sure. Where exactly am I being angry? I am legitimately doing my best to not lash out at people in games.

- lilith

“trying to replicate townself” inherently implies someone is scum, no?

confused and frustrated, sure. Where exactly am I being angry? I am legitimately doing my best to not lash out at people in games.

idk, "?????? ok vote me again then" and "Can you give thoughts on all of that instead of one post I made with the specific purpose of picking gamma’s argument apart?" felt angry to me, but maybe it's me failing basic emotional comprehension again.

“trying to replicate townself” inherently implies someone is scum, no?

ehh, not in my mind, though reading back i can kinda see how it could be read like that.

lilith, do you have an opinion on my alignment yet? it's difficult to tell if you're thinking i'm a vi or a cakez-scumbuddy.

I feel like I reacted very similarly in this game. now that I’m reading it, I feel like you’re reacting quite differently.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’m having trouble with getting any sort of read on T3… mostly because I feel like titus started yelling about messing with the vca as if that was scum-motivated and not just like, silly and what I think is NAI. I instinctively want to defend t3 for it but fully realize that this basically has no bearing on his alignment.

pedit: what is a hypo?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I am pretty sure we should explicitly not be claiming whether we will individually be shooting or even whether we own pain potions, according to bingle.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

you’re not even up for elim, what motivation do you think I would have for supposedly faking thoughts with “paper thin meta”?

pretending you're town and have thoughts on the game? setting up a push on my slot tomorrow? like what kinda question is this

and yeah, in the past there was a game where i thought you were scum (idk if it was bc you were angry or for something else, i'll check tomorrow if we're both alive) but the thing is, your response to me to my scumread in that game actually felt townie? though i will take a look at that game

-D

surely your impression of my scumgame isn’t so low that you think I would resort to making up bullshit I can’t support with anything?

here’s the series of posts:

Spoiler:

in other news, i am still not townreading limit. like, i feel like town!lilith should be obvtown when town, and i am still not feeling it here? like i know yesterday i unvoted them after discussion, but having slept on it i'm not *feeling* it. like, i couldn't point at a single thing and say "this is scummy", it just feels like overall she's struggling to replicate her usual town-self?

?????? ok vote me again then

lilith, do you know what a "nullread" is

it was a naked vote on dwlee, so I also am very skeptical that this was supposed to be some kind of planned entrance that overshadowed his usual MO of joking with me

this reminds me of something - in a different game, i was playing with a person who i usually always vote and joke around with in rvs. that game, my entrance was a naked vote on another person rather than the usual rvs-joke-vote. later on, we started scumreading each other, and one of his points was that i didn't do my usual rvs-joke. we were both town. so like, i feel like there shouldn't be too much weight put on someone's entrance like this?

Do you think it is possible that cakes was avoiding interacting with me, maybe hoping that I wouldn’t pay that much attention to him? The lack of interaction in rvs is only one part of that. The lack of response to my vote is a second part of that. When he finally did respond to me, his initial response was defensive (“I do x thing”) and didn’t question my motivation. Then his answer about not finding me suspicious and therefore responding only defensively feels like he made it up after the fact to explain why he hadn’t been treating me with paranoia. Can you give thoughts on all of that instead of one post I made with the specific purpose of picking gamma’s argument apart?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i mean, sure, it's possible. when you write it out neatly like that, i can agree cakez looks bad. i'm not saying he doesn't. but i already gave you my thoughts - yes i agree he doesn't look great, but i just don't agree with a "scumread" because i do not believe in it. trust me, i am *acutely* aware how big of a hole i'm digging myself into right now in the event that he flips red, which may not be unlikely. but i cannot lie and tell you that i have a scumread on cakez when i just don't.

also i'm in the process of questioning him about it, so. no need to get angry so quickly.

confused and frustrated, sure. Where exactly am I being angry? I am legitimately doing my best to not lash out at people in games.

- lilith

“trying to replicate townself” inherently implies someone is scum, no?

confused and frustrated, sure. Where exactly am I being angry? I am legitimately doing my best to not lash out at people in games.

idk, "?????? ok vote me again then" and "Can you give thoughts on all of that instead of one post I made with the specific purpose of picking gamma’s argument apart?" felt angry to me, but maybe it's me failing basic emotional comprehension again.

“trying to replicate townself” inherently implies someone is scum, no?

ehh, not in my mind, though reading back i can kinda see how it could be read like that.

lilith, do you have an opinion on my alignment yet? it's difficult to tell if you're thinking i'm a vi or a cakez-scumbuddy.

I feel like I reacted very similarly in this game. now that I’m reading it, I feel like you’re reacting quite differently.

- lilith

maybe you felt like you can support it. i'm not really interested in discussions such as "i am better/worse at scum than this".

yeah, i'm reacting differently because in that game, at the point where you're quoting, i had already changed my mind on you begin scum, but i was keeping it up because i wanted to see if skitter would defend you or something like that, i don't remember off the top of my head what the reaction test was, should be later on in my iso. that is assuming my reaction really is different, because i myself cannot tell on a skim.

whether you've reacted differently or not requires me to reread that game and this game and then actually think about it, and at this time to deadline and my current state of tiredness, that's not happening in this game day.

-D

ok

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

idk I kind of want to vote t3 for this??? is it even possible to surpass titus wagon atp?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: t3

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

ah poop

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Alright, mechwall time:

Spoiler: CASE A: UNLEASHED ACTIONS

First of all, as mentioned earlier, doctor potions are completely irrelevant here. Potions of Harmography are similarly useless. For example, say for the sake of argument that mastina is scum and I am town. Mastina would obviously pain potion me, despite the fact that I'm a fairly townread individual. Further, it is unlikely that we as town get enough coordination to kill a scum player, because any actual scum that is likely to be double pain'd would be just as obvious a target to the scumteam. This case gives us absolutely no utility out of most of our potions and leaves us with only the JK potions really mattering. And even then, it's unlikely they matter much.

Spoiler: CASE B: No Pain Usage

Arguably, this is the best use of potions. JK and Harmography potions are both stronger, by virtue of the fact that any Harmography result is necessarily on scum, which is a straight up guilty as opposed to functionally unusable WIFOM nonsense. JK potions don't interfere with Harmography potions that target the same person, so they're still viable.

Spoiler: CASE C: Massclaim and Leash

Frankly, we don't have the time to accomplish this. It's possible it would outright break the setup, but that's reliant on RNG and I'm not going to be able to spend the time to untangle the route in any case.

Spoiler: CASE D: Limited Pool for Pain

First of all, a small pain pool gives us an additional chance that the pain usage actually kills the intended targets instead of just leaving people with 1 HP to muddy the waters on who we should be eliminating. Second, this gives us a use of harmography that is protown in nature.

Pain potions on slots that are already facing elimination from scum are a waste of scum's resources (also known as a good thing for town). In the case that deaths happen outside of the pain pool, any player who used pain INSIDE the pool becomes vastly more likely to be town. Further, if there are any harmography potions used outside of the pool of pain that catch the use of pain, that's still a guilty.

Ideally the pool should be either 1 or two players. 1 would make finding innocents more likely as any Harmography usage in that pool becomes highly indicative. 2 provides slightly more in the way of additional eliminations as it would mean scum would have to devote multiple JKs to stop the potential vigshots. And to be clear, it would in fact be in scum's best interest to stop a vig shot on town in the pain pools because that person would be a likely miselimination.

The thing Titus is dancing around: Scum should not actually kill a player tonight. Arsonist >> Goon. It's a pretty trivial understanding, but putting their shots into three separate players is better for scum because it denies us information right now and doesn't negatively impact their turns to win. Obviously, this may be different because of the composition of the scum team and whether a specific player is scary, but what this REALLY means is that scum is likely to spread out their kills tonight, regardless of what we do. We want to use harmography specifically tonight because of this.

My suggestion, for N1 we use the No Pain option and for N2 we use the Limited pool option. This gives us more information when targeting the vig shot (possibly even a guilty) and gives us optimal usage of the harmography potions on the night when it's most likely for them to be useful. If scum goes wide on kills, they increase the chances we hit one of them with a watcher result. If scum goes for a kill, they risk being caught as MULTIPLE BAD ACTORS by one investigation. The holstering of the vigs also gives us more potential harmography results tonight as a scummy player with a harmography potion still has a chance at getting a result before they die.

Note: in absolutely none of these cases should anyone claim whether they are using harmography, jk, doc or pain before the night, as that gives a road map to let scum try to fuck us with JKs. Additionally, in the limited pain pool option, each individual should make their own call on who to harmography, as both catching scum outside of the harmography pool and confirming town inside of it are powerful tools.

bingle recommended no shooting

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

ok this deadline came a LOT faster than I expected (idk what I was expecting????) and like 4 people are mia. I feel like we should all holster but also no one is probably going to listen to me airjwjehqjrjg

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

aren’t there enough bodies to prevent a loss n2?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Note: in absolutely none of these cases should anyone claim whether they are using harmography, jk, doc or pain before the night, as that gives a road map to let scum try to fuck us with JKs.

@t3: bingle EXPLICITLY SAID don’t declare targets.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

actions, targets, all of that

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

my preferred shoot pool is t3/dwlee if green!titus and idfk if red!titus. I guess RCE is fine. I don’t want to be in any pool but I guess I’d rather be shot than eliminated

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

idk I didn’t really take it as a joke in any sense since datisi has basically gone off on me any time I’m mentioned

- lilith

It was a joke playing off your account name. Think your reaction has been over the top, though.

-R

sorry, what about my reaction was over the top?

I have actual concerns about datisi continuing to focus on me

like I’ve said, datisi seems to be angry at me any other time I’ve been mentioned, so I am unsure how I was supposed to distinguish a joke from all of the other times he’s railed at me for being horrible and flat

I was in no way angry or upset, but said I’d like to know why he keeps focusing on us when there are other slots who have done less. I genuinely apologize if I came across rude but I don’t think my reaction was over the top.

- lilith

would like a response to this because I still feel like it’s vaguely shady to handwave my posts away because I’m “overreacting”

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If we all claim whether we have a pain potion or not we can coordinate to shoot in the PoE. We can theoretically kill most of the PoE on night 1 depending on the potion distribution and scum can't counter it.

Literally scumclaiming at this point trying to see who they need to poison.

-F

my preferred shoot pool is t3/dwlee if green!titus and idfk if red!titus. I guess RCE is fine. I don’t want to be in any pool but I guess I’d rather be shot than eliminated

- lilith

jfc
I have 200 posts, you have no read on me. Then when i suggest a mech strategy you scumread me.

don’t suggest bad strategies then

you’re in my shoot pool if titus is green for what I think are fairly obvious reasons that have nothing to do with your strategies.

pedit: if scum know who is using pain potions then they know how to plan the use of their potions, like who to avoid shooting because of who will be using harmography potions and who those potions are likely to be used on. that’s the whole fucking point of the leash pool.

ppedit: you do know who bingle is, right?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

We massclaim who, if anyone, we attacked, right?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

We didn't attack anyone.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why? lillith somehow got

~no~

read on me, not even vague vibes off my 200 posts and then once I suggest something I am immediately scumread by lillith because 'Binlge said it's bad'

1) as I have repeatedly explained, I never fully caught up D1, and have few reads to begin with
2) as I also explained, the strategy you proposed would have given scum enough information to optimize the use of their pain potions, on top of the advantage they already have by being informed and being able to coordinate with each other's potion use. I also wrote a post that I didn't hit submit on, about how I view most suggestions of massclaiming as automatically suspicious, especially early in the game, because massclaiming comes at a cost and in my opinion doesn't help town unless we can mech clear someone from it, which we can't in this setup because of the randomized nature.
3) as I also also mentioned, the reason you were in my shoot pool had nothing to do with your suggestion but more to do with titus flipping green, if titus flipped green, which I thought was pretty self-explanatory.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

We didn't attack anyone.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

but if you wanna go that route, fine. you feel flat as fuck and for someone who's supposed to be very easy to obvtown, it's a horrible look. i don't care you had the other game where you were in f3. i don't care about who has more or fewer posts, when most of your posts were either screaming at mastina, throwing a fit at anyone looking at you for acting scummy, or s_s throwing out unmemorable comments. the way that you're latching onto things like this and spewing ate while not actually offering content to solve looks bad.

but you're free to actually offer some content and lay out how this is apparently not all that different from us last game.

Btw this is :goodposting: from Datisi since TLDNE is very very highly likely scum, too.

I just think Bingle's scum stronger, and that TLDNE is a Bingle scumbuddy.

this is how i feel about this:

your moronic scumread on me.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Absolutely done with this game. Since everyone has checked in, I’m assuming all pain potions have been claimed already if used. We harmographied Bingle and can confirm Fairy Circle pain potioned him. So at least one of these slots is town, as I certainly don’t think scum is going around pain potioning each other. which makes mastina’s solve literally impossible.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’m fully expecting to be the elimination so no way am I doing a full reread.

Here are my sticking points with GCB:
town!datisi has never once approached me like this - in particular the condescending and patronizing tone. I’d make a guess that town!datisi doesn’t approach anyone with that kind of tone. Retti is apparently staying far away from me, probably because I know who he is. why do GCB want to get rid of our slot so badly? I’d venture a guess it’s because I’m the only one in this game not townreading them and the only one with knowledge of Retti’s identity.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

regardless of your alignment datisi, and actually regardless of my alignment as well, your attitude towards me has been really hurtful. I told everyone that I was having mental health issues and you just shat on me. I’m not forgetting that.

I also fully expect you and mastina and whoever else are about to scream “ATE!!!!” but I don’t care about surviving anymore. scream AtE all you want.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

with our death and confirmation of our harmography result, I hope mastina is able to reevaluate correctly because unfortunately she’s the only person I’m townreading with any confidence. I think fairy circle and bingle are probably both town, bingle slightly less likely to be town.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

started to read through some datisi games but I’m not sure I really have a good conclusion. at some level I recognize logically that my brain is just going to be biased because of how upset I am, which is making it very difficult to be objective about anything.

tired and have to go to work. honestly if we die before I get back that just saves me the effort of having to post in this awful game again. I probably don’t have much else to say that will be useful.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

i'm sorry, where did i shit on you when you said you were having mental health issues?

and where was my tone patronizing? also you can say all you want how we're scum trying desperately hard to yeet you because you're the only slot that doesn't townread us, but i kinda find it doubtful you don't consider the possibility of "hey, my experience with lilith is that she's obvtown as fuck when she's town, and she's a non-presence here, and continues being a non-presence when called out on it, something's up with that!"

-D

I’ve repeatedly explained why I was having trouble getting into this game, which was that I was having anxiety attacks about FGO for about four weeks straight, which overlapped with almost all of D1 of this game. your responses to me since then have only gotten more condescending in tone and you’ve basically told me that I was using it as an excuse and AtEing. I was genuinely struggling to produce reads or content because of it but instead of trying to engage with me, I was told I was being over the top and wasn’t allowed to feel frustrated because it should be understandable that people scumread me when I’m struggling. ok.

not responding to you anymore.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

So at least one of these slots is town, as I certainly don’t think scum is going around pain potioning each other. which makes mastina’s solve literally impossible.

Or scum is playing 100 IQ.

I don’t think scum is going to waste their potions like that? or risk a team member dying to a town pain?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

ok, i see you're more interested in highlighting how you should've been given a free pass than actually working with me or trying to prove your alignment. back to lurking for me.

-D

I’m trying to explain to you

why the things you said have been hurtful

because you asked. I have no interest in trying to hash out anything with you because, as I’ve said before, I don’t think anything I say is going to change your mind and see no point in putting myself through that for no impact.

yes, go ahead and kill me. I’m literally saying I’ve accepted it.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

norwee, if you want to talk about stuff I’ll make an effort.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

sure. I think it usually takes me a couple games to feel “calibrated” with how someone plays and get a feel for them. I only remember one game that I scumread you in though, the osuka one? and I think that was mostly because I was feeling really strongly about that conversation with una. so the scumread on you was an emotional one, as best as I can remember.

if there are other games we’ve played together, I don’t remember them. I do think I read you correctly in team mafia (though there’s no proof since my team wasn’t in that game). after getting to know your playstyle a bit, in some ways I think we react similarly to things and so your reaction to SS felt like how I would have reacted in the moment, and knowing you are on the emotional side like me made me feel like that was genuine. At the time I also thought you would have kept pushing us if you were scum. I’m not sure if I still believe that but that’s what I thought at the time.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

to elaborate on the osuka game - una’s behavior to me felt like he was trying to belittle me, and I scumread him really strongly for it, then I realized that it felt like you were trying to do the same thing by calling me too dumb to be scum and things like that, so I scumread you as well. I don’t recall you behaving anything like that this game.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

when I initially had that thought, it was because I thought we were a really easy push for scum!you to make, partly because I believed other people would have supported the push. now I don’t actually remember if that’s true, maybe you would have thought that GCB pushing back on you so hard meant you wouldn’t have gotten any support for pushing us. I still think the reaction thing is valid but not as strong as I did before.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

do you have other games in mind where I hard scumread you?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t even remember being in any other games with you

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I still think the reaction thing is valid but not as strong as I did before.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’m expecting us to be eliminated.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

frankly I don’t really care about staying alive, and since mastina is a (mostly) universal townread and is also mastina I think she has the best chance of leading town. if us dying is the only way mastina will reevaluate her solve tomorrow then… well, I’m fine with that.

I said I’ll do what I can before we die but I don’t feel that strongly about anyone. no one seems to care about what I have to say re: GCB. I have townreads and we have a harmography result. that’s probably the best it’s going to get.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’m not faking scumreads I don’t have.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

gcb, emp, t3, dwlee, rce

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

oh happy bday

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

this really doesn’t feel like town!datisi to me. but then I looked at his scumgames and it doesn’t feel like scum!datisi to me either.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

can you talk to me about emp read?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’m honestly just so tired.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

and it feels like I’m just going to be ramming my head into the brick wall that is mastina until endgame because she’s literally never going go townread me and it feels about the same with gcb and I just feel so overwhelmed thinking about the amount I need to effort in order to “obvtown” the way I have in the past and I don’t think I have it in me this game.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

what happened to your suspicions on our slot?

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Empereror did some real really towny posts earlier and then did a full stop halfway through day 1 so he hasn't exactly been pushing people.

same goes for gcb, no?

it feels wrong that everyone’s poe was basically the same at the beginning of the day. I was mostly just being paranoid/frustrated with being scumread earlier but I actually think one of the “universal” townreads could be scum now. it does feel a bit like they got their townreads and the game is going in a way that they’re happy with so they just dipped.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’m very interested to hear mastina’s reaction to our harmography claim, she doesn’t appear to have reacted at all.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

also ty flea <3

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

In what world does GCB not get shot by scum if they are town?

Serious question.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

The fact that nobody died means that scum are clearly more afraid of harmography than people's reads.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Dwlee feels pretty town today. I want to trust Fairy for being honest about their potion, though tbh Bingle is an excellent target to help take out as scum, but I think that plus the fact that Titus took so long to kill makes me feel better about them.

I have decided to stop trusting Norwee's town reads.

{T3, RCE, Emperor, GCB, mastina}.

I don't think Emperor/GCB are both scum, that world is probably never winnable so it isn't worth trying, but I think it's pretty likely one is.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Mm 1800 - 1802 from T3 looks pretty towny.

I'm not sure tells work on T3 though.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why would tells not work on me?

You play pretty differently from most people.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

like, 1818 implies you think we're scum (probably, if i'm not meant to read it like that lemme know, but especially considering events of mbos 12 i feel like i'm supposed to read it that way), and a minute later 1819 says you think town is having bad reads since nobody died. and from your pov, i should be the definition of "bad reads".

I mean, it's a pretty interesting take to say that you being town and having a single read (that is very popular) wrong for pretty understandable reasons is more "bad reads" than basically everyone in the game having a wrong read on you.

I feel like that was pretty obviously what I was getting at? Scum aren't in danger because they're being townread.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

as much as I appreciate the defense on a personal level, I kind of feel like FC is white knighting us knowing that we're flipping town and the very likely plurality elim :/

although I don't really want to elim Bingle either

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: rce? blegh

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If this is town I will eat my anime hat.

What warrants such confidence? Or do you just have a taste for hats?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

So unless GCB had both pained and healed me, unless I was healed limit could be reasonably sure I was pained exactly once. The only way I was healed was if it was done by GCB, which wouldn't catch limit in a lie, or if scum did it. IF limit is scum here, they knew that their claim of only you having pained me was a safe one to make before they made it. This is not evidence that limit is scum, btw, just evidence that townreading limit on the basis of the Harmo result is blegh.

This is true.

That said it should be reasonably evident from my opening that we had

some

kind of potentially useful info, for whatever that's worth.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

And specifically I hoped it was a guilty because I misread the room pretty badly about how Bingle was being read. I still think he's pretty town, and I'm surprised to see this much pressure on him especially when he clearly has no potions and poses very little threat if scum.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

yeah this is why I’m so done with this game. there’s zero chance I ever change your or gcb’s minds so I don’t even see the point. you guys are either scum or stuck so hard in your tunnel that nothing we do will change anything. then we’ll flip town and you’ll be like “wow why didn’t you try harder” and the answer will be, and has been, that you refuse to take your head out of your ass long enough to consider that you might be wrong. It’s so unpleasant to play with and I’m over it.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

dwlee has moved up in my reads I think.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

yeah fucking vote us. I would love to not be in this game anymore.

- lilith

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I've changed my mind about this mechanic. It's mostly just an arsonist mechanic in disguise.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Kinda unironically think we should no-exe because this could be mylo.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I mean on the other hand that just makes a quick loss into a slightly longer loss so like, I guess I'd rather that not happen?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I'm fairly confident GCB is just scum here fwiw

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why?

Game doesn't make any sense and nobody has good reads. Implies scum have a lot of influence. Mastina can pull the strings as scum but nobody is listening to her here.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

and this points at me being scum rather than any other widely townread slot being scum because...?

You're the only one doing anything

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Also there's nothing in the rules that says we can't vote for no-exe?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

who do you consider to be widely townread slots?

You + Norwee

No idea what happened to emperor slot.

I could be wrong about this tbh, I haven't been paying much attention to the game.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

my guess is that when plurality is in effect and mod obviously wants there to be a yeet, it won't accept a no-yeet vote, but shrug

-D

I do not think that is the only reason mods use plurality

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

What? Are you saying i’m not doing anything?

Yes

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

How possible is FC/RCE/Limit team?

What, and we're just dicking around instead of trying to win?

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Based on the apathy today that pool is optimistically 1/3, realistically probably 0/3.

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

FC is probably not scum as in I wouldn't touch them today.
I would say Dwlee/Aristeia/Limit?
Only thing I'm almost absolutely sure about in my PoE is that Dwlee/Bingle is not s/s. Dwlee/RCE could be s/s but probably not and if Dwlee is scum he's been treating Aristeia and Limit like he would usually treat his scumpartners.

Is this, like, too insightful for town-T3?

(Have I ever even played with town-T3? DEFCON, I think)

-S

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: Norwee

-S