mini theme 2229: MBOS 13 schweppes' pulpy potions daya 5

[Bingle]

I have a breaking strategy:

Step one, gift me all of the potions.
Step two, I drink all the potions.
Step three, I develop reality manipulation powers.
Step four, I go batshit insane.
Step five, I use my newfound reality manipulation powers and convince everyone I was really a superhero the whole time.
Step six, I rip Ares in half.
Step seven, I decide I’m probably evil and fly into the sun.
Step eight, Apocalypse resurrects me to fight a subset of the Avengers and X-men.

Clearly, this plan has no flaws.

[Bingle]

@mod: is there a public method by which ingredients can be combined to make potions or by which ingredients can be traded?

I have at least one ingredient I wouldn’t mind giving to basically anyone. It is not mayonnaise.

[Bingle]

so, the mafia might get anywhere from ~1-4 kills

More meaningful to discuss potion distribution in terms of goon/vt, but largely irrelevant D1. The big takeaway from setup balance is that scum’s ability to nightkill drastically decreases if they successfully bus in this setup, to the extent that even having said that they’re still pretty likely to mutually defend each other.

Town use of pain potions is risky, and I am currently undecided on whether we should try to make it a second elimination and hope to kill scum before they can restock or just never use pain potions as town.

If you’re still insistent on looking at pain potions distribution you should only plot 0, 1, 2, >=3.

[Bingle]

Can we give people potions?

I told you not to question my breaking strategy, dammit.

[Bingle]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that Norwee is town here so that when mastina comes in and BAMFs the thread I'm suitably embarrassed.

[Bingle]

my favorite ingredient is passion.

You appear to have mispelled poison.

[Bingle]

Right, so schadd has confirmed that this is actually a Semi Open by definition and there aren't hidden mechanics, so the ingredients are actually just flavor.

Also, my ingredient is poison, which I'm taking as an attempt by schadd to murder me.

I'm a little concerned that Dwlee thought my 100 was in any way serious, in a NAI fashion. I would like to reassure him that I do not intend to become a character from the marvel universe.

VOTE: ta vera

Cereal Vote.

[Bingle]

An secret alt has an meta read, oh boy.

On Bingle of all people.

[Bingle]

am i wrong in thinking that titus often doesn't participate much early day 1?

:/

[Bingle]

VOTE: titus

"trying to keep the game in rvs for longer instead of doing something to get us out of it" feels like one of those reasoning that almost never works, but i'm running with it for now.

-D

You think the functionally V/LA Titus is the one to push over avoiding thread progression?

[Bingle]

I think your entrance was off and you seem to be selectively engaging in things that aren't really AI.

[Bingle]

Do mafia have a nightkill or do they just toss poison at people.

the obvious question here is: is this a real townslip?

i find that being weird can actually garner town reads sometimes. and, i think weirdness is more of a personality thing than something someone does as a strategy.

meta can be good.

Dwlee seemed like a very efficient robot as scum in the last game we had.

oh. i've never played with scum dwlee.

All of these lines of interaction seem to me like they're aimed at going no where. You've got the noncommital question about a 'townslip' that has already been called out (It wasn't a townslip, btw, it was a question scumNorwee could also have had), a "That's NAI.", generic comments about nothing (meta can be good), and a nothingburger response to Norwee's meta. Also, the mechstuff, even if prompted.

It feels more like she wants to be seen as doing something more than actually wanting to do something.

[Bingle]

Explain what you mean by avoiding thread progression? I've read the frog as proactive

The former wasn't about vera, it was about Titus. I was wondering if GCB would back off when I pointed out Titus had said she wouldn't be around much yesterday.

I don't particularly read frog as proactive, though.

[Bingle]

can you inform us who is scum?

-D

Is this because Who isn't posting itt?

Cause this might be another Dunn situation where he isn't actually in the game.

[Bingle]

how does me backing off or not backing off impact your read on me?

At the time, I wasn't sure how it would and was just fishing for reactions. You expanding with the "She's posting elsewhere" bit was mildly town.

[Bingle]

i'm still not liking The Emperor.

Do you have additional reasons, or is it just the TMI bit?

If it's just the TMI bit, which specific reads are TMI-y?

[Bingle]

The last four posts are incredibly weird and I would like to know more.

[Bingle]

So the meta read here is that scum Bingle doesn't really joke around about mech early game, while he almost always does as town from what I've seen

Contextually bad read, but probably a genuine one given the nuance. If you want to compare that game to a similar towngame of mine, you should look at the lovers and losers reset.

Why would I consider mech analysis from ta Vera as AI when mech analysis is explicitly not AI?

[Bingle]

Oh you have ingredients in your role PM?

Just poison. I was implying I might have more than one in case Schadd told me this setup had closed elements to obscure information, but it turns out the ingredients are publicly a red herring.

[Bingle]

Momrangal replaced out, must be because she rolled scum!!!

Nah, probably just the Fourth of July.

[Bingle]

Mech analysis isn't AI, but it can be towny if it's useful, which I thought ta vera's one was

Does that or her push on I factor into your read at all?

Mech analysis should literally never result in a townread. Full stop.

I saw her interactions with you as both heavily instigated BY you and more of an attempt to undermine your townreads than anything else.

[Bingle]

Uh

Gaize

Im still here, i just fused with Flea!

Hello new person who is definitely not mom. I’d give you a summary and talk, but it’s 4 AM and I should probably get *some* sleep. Emperor/ta Vera/GCB probably most valuable Isis, or you could cheat with mastina’s catch-up.

[Bingle]

It is the only ingredient you have correct?

Aye.

[Bingle]

Lack of general progressions since his ta vera vote a while back

Do you mean this as a general thing or are you referring specifically to ta vera? Because... ta vera has done nothing worth responding to, so of course I haven't reevaluated there.

[Bingle]

I'm extremely disappointed in Bingle not having anything to say at all about the latest pages except for that avoiding stance of "would like to know more".

True, I have been pretty absent.

The vote from you on SSLith was v interesting to me as it was at its heart a vote for someone based on them trying to undermine a townread when said townread had already been undermined, and you didn't seem to have a problem with it the first time.

The post from SS was equally :eyebrows: because it just made no sense. Why would you have to consider the veracity of your own hypothetical townslip to the point where sheeping my view on it would be suspicious?

I'm not sure how I feel about either of these things in an alignment indicative way, and would like to see how other people see them.

[Bingle]

Either they show up and produce content or they get replaced, I'm not sure how votes effect that.

[Bingle]

Do you mean this as a general thing or are you referring specifically to ta vera? Because... ta vera has done nothing worth responding to, so of course I haven't reevaluated there.

Quick follow up here:

@mod: ta vera is due a prod.

[Bingle]

What'd you make of the resulting Boy/Boys and then Emperors feud?

I'm reading all of you as town independently, and I think the 'feud' is pretty silly.

[Bingle]

Maths is not my strong suit. Neither is English apparently.

Mafia are aware of who to target, their pool is 8, I will not discuss scum tactics here.
Each one of us are only aware of ourselves. Our pool is 10.

2 people need to successfully target any one person to obtain a kill.

Town still has 1-in-10 (2:20) of hitting that kill in a single night. Over two nights it's a lot greater chance of hitting the kill and cannot be estimated without long calculations which frankly I do not have the time nor patience for.

I suspect there will be as much town invoked death as scum invoked. Greatest difficulty in this game is that NKA cannot feasibly happen.

-Malefleacent.

Not only is this math completely wrong, it’s also completely irrelevant.

We need to either mass holster like we should have done in Ygg or turn the pain potions mechanic into additional eliminations, like we did after morph was confirmed.

[Bingle]

2 names for people to shoot at.

These names should be leashed. First five can shoot at one, second five can shoot at the other. Additional benefit of mafia risking having to justify why they didn’t shoot.

[Bingle]

Bingle turning to talk about only mech to appear solvy?

No? I never do mech to appear solvey. I do mech because it’s a universal trait of my games. Anyone townreading me on protown mech who has played with me even once is a dumbass.

[Bingle]

I will be shooting who I want to

Why are you against using setup tools to town’s advantage? I don’t remember that from naughts or ygg you.

[Bingle]

But it’s the only thing you talk about.
In your townplay in DaC you also tried to solve peoples allignment.

And also in my scumplay in DaC.

I’ve been largely busy IRL and somewhat checked out from the game, which is moderately checkable by looking at my site wide activity, despite this being my only ongoing game. I think that scum is in the players who aren’t really playing and there’s not a lot I can do to push them without spending effort. The problem being that “people who aren’t really playing” is like 2/3 of the player list.

[Bingle]

I’m going Bingle.

I’m assuming I’m the lim today, tbh, and I’m not really fighting it because I have no potions. The real question is can I orchestrate a mass action chain to follow after I die.

[Bingle]

Nah, I made a bunch of consecutive shitpushes to leave bad associations, actually attempted to push townreads on Marci and Luke, and then openwolfed to prevent my partner from being caught by a dwindling PoE when I realized that you and BMI weren’t going to have the dynamic I had been aiming for.

I did actually try to push people for AI things I could shitpush on though.

Comparatively, here, I’ve just not been doing anything.

[Bingle]

You’re not gonna fight it?

Not what I said and also not what I meant.

I'm not really fighting it currently (although, actually that's changing) but I will put up at least some fight. Rolling over and taking it doesn't leave anything to analyze.

OTOH, I'm in a lobby that has 0 names good at reading me and 0 names I'm amazing at reading. I have no night actions. I'm probably the 4th best D1 lim for that reason (After scum, because if 2 scum are eliminated we can functionally turn this game into nightless). The goal is to take that and leave town in a position where they can then win the game afterwards.

[Bingle]

I am not actually sure scum has "a lot of voice" given, uh, the way things have been going, but do not think the case on Bingle has been strong enough for me to go "yes kill him ASAP".

I think the wagon on me is mostly town, FWIW. Scum doesn't want to be on a wagon that's this flimsy, it's shit optics for the lategame.

[Bingle]

The post from SS was equally :eyebrows: because it just made no sense. Why would you have to consider the veracity of your own hypothetical townslip to the point where sheeping my view on it would be suspicious?

Can you link what post this is referring to?

Ok, Bingle already said this earlier.
You seem like you really want to hammer that point across.

Are you taking Bingle as the authority on this? All I wanted was to share my opinion, which should be given the same weight as anyone else's.

-S

[Bingle]

The you in 341 was Norwee, for context. SS was asking Norwee if I'm the authority on whether Norwee townslipped, which frankly seems bizarre to me.

[Bingle]

As far as towncasing, I've spoken a little about Emp, but I suppose I could go into detail.

DR Green has been waffling, but not in a way that makes it seem like they're willing to take any side in an argument. They have consistently had the most salient opinions on IGA fmpov and the things they've poked at all seem to be going somewhere (contrast ta vera). 109 for example looked like Dats was actually trying to find motivation. 144 is an admittedly weak push, but when asked about it Dats didn't back down and elaborated on his thoughts. There was a train of logic behind the push AND the followthrough to actually try to get discussion going from it. And then he went and turned the confrontation into a chance at reading me, not an accusation but an honest attempt at reaching out.

125 was also fairly town in that it's something I don't think scum thinks to fake. If scum is going to put the effort into pushing lurkers, I'd expect it to be on a lurker that actually exists in the game. "But Bingle," you say, "The fact that Dats thought Dunn WAS in the game makes that NAI!" Sure. But scum also doesn't make that post having realized he isn't. Scum either drops the Dunnstral case anyway and we all point and laugh and say "Silly Datisi, there's no Dunn in this game, you must be town." or scum just leaves the whole thing alone and doesn't post it at all. The former would be better for optics and the latter would be better for effort. Instead, Datisi is being naturally open with his approach to the thread, meaning he doesn't have the intention of hiding things.

Teal Dear:

GCB has consistently shown a town approach to the game.

[Bingle]

I shot at Ircher in ygg.

You shot Ircher in ygg before we had any plans about shooting. You had a frontrow seat to why coordinated town shooting was useful (and, iirc, agreed to do so once we had our solid PoE). Ygg was also a closed setup.

Naughts was an open setup (like this one) with an abusable for town mechanic that you immediately tried to explain and explore. I thought you did so on D1 as well, but you definitely didn't take an issue with it.

Note: I'm not saying you should have no input on who you shoot, I'm saying that we should go into night with a plan OR that no one should shoot. I'm currently leaning the former, because due to the nature of harmography potions we can possibly have a large pool of pseudoconftown.

[Bingle]

2. It makes it scarier for scum to shoot in people outside the pool - in addition to the possibility of having a shot blocked by a doctor/jailkeeper potion, any result from a harmography potion is a hard guilty - they cannot get away with an excuse of "Oh I used my pain on [insert obvtown player here] because I scumread them"

Particularly, Dwlee, what is your rebuttal to this?

[Bingle]

Do mafia have a nightkill or do they just toss poison at people.

Town post this far more often than scum think to fake it

I'm going to take this at face value and assume you're not the sort of person to fake this sort of thing. Unless you say you are.

Towny for recognising that and calling it out

Dwlee's giving me town pings for their weird posting that on a surface level looks scummy, and scum are less likely to make

I have a meta read on Bingle which I'll hold onto for now

So the meta read here is that scum Bingle doesn't really joke around about mech early game, while he almost always does as town from what I've seen

I don't really like the angle he's taking wrt to ta vera right now. 159 felt selective since it doesn't mention ta vera's mech analysis which I actually felt like it served some use, as well as her push on The Senate

The main things I like from Emp, along with his back and forth with ta vera which went over several posts and mostly boiled down to prompting her for actual content while she was catching up. I disagree that 8 was town indicative (Norwee is smart enough to ask non incriminating setup clarification questions publicly as scum) but the thought process that it would be town indicative isn't an unreasonable one. Further, the thought process of "I think thing X is town, Person Y thinks thing X is town, and I don't see a reason for Person Y to point out that thing X is town" is altogether far more towny than the generic "I think thing X is town and Person Y thinks thing X is town". It shows a level of paranoia as to GCB's motivations that I think is unlikely to be faked by scum as a throwaway read in the early days.

The wrongmeta application to me similarly makes sense. DNC 2 was one of my only real recent scumgames (the only other one that pops into mind is the game about Russia and nukes where I repped into a literally solved gamestate and cried a little that I didn't get to play scum with Ali for longer) and he's 100% right that my entrance there was very different to my entrance here. Comparatively I have quite a few recent towngames that are more in line with this game. He didn't take into account that DNC 2 I mostly avoided mechspeak because the majority of the game had just had the mech speak conversation and thus didn't need it again, as I pointed out by telling him to look at the contemporary game of lovers and losers 2 where I didn't engage in mechspeak because we accidentally broke the game and had to reroll based on leveraging mod info to locktown a player. (Which, to be fair, was 50% my fault and 50% llamafluff's fault.) In both cases I didn't mechspeak because I already had.

Still though, his conclusions were supported by the given evidence, which he definitely went to go find, and he didn't appear to be blowing smoke up my ass (which would be unlikely from someone who meta'd me as I'm LESS likely to townread people who townread me). The waffling on me seems like genuine cogdis where he's trying to reconcile two different opinions and can't quite line them up, which is very hard to fake well as scum.

[Bingle]

And this is an absolutely waste of any power town has, and I know you're not stupid enough to suggest this legitmately.

It's not about killing the names we choose it's about potentially *conftowning* anyone who does shoot at those names.

Conftown here doesn't actually mean conftown, FWIW, but rather that there would by necessity be 2 scum outside of that pool if anyone else died.

I can make a theory wall to explain things later, but I actually haven't decided a couple of specifics yet (for example, whether we should massclaim pots or use playerlist divisions if we actually adopt said plan).

[Bingle]

I'm fine with making pools. But if the person I want to shoot isn't in the pool I'll probably say something about that.

I mean... I'd hope you would. The point of leveraging the vigs into three eliminations would be to ACTUALLY HAVE THREE ELIMINATIONS. It wouldn't be hero shooting, it would be arguing scumreads in the main thread and presenting whys.

[Bingle]

the human element to battle against.

Look at the playerlist.

SS
Dats
Norwee
Dwlee
Titus
Mastina
You.

All of these people are both mech savvy enough to follow a plan and trustworthy enough to ACTUALLY DO SO AS TOWN IF THE PLAN MAKES SENSE, at least from my PoV.

I think T3 would too, and neither ta or Emp strike me as wildcard trolls who would intentionally fuck town because they don't like plans.

I have limited experience with lilith, but based on the work she put into Betrayal and her hydra partner, I'm inclined to add her to the list.

Based on the lobby, I think an actual NA plan is fairly reasonable, tbh.

[Bingle]

That I can see in the limited information I have, we cannot even biasconf people here.

We have a limited supply of pain pots, and you're suggesting dumping them into 2 players. Thats what it reads as to me.

Not only that, we're dealing with random distribution of pain pots and it's entirely possible that there are people with no pots and multiple pots, as well as people holding more than 3 pots as you've already highlighted.

You're going to have to wait for the full theory wall, but A. Yes we can. B. I'm not suggesting we dump all of our pain potions, but rather that we limit the available targets to two specific scummy players and then give each individual the choice of whether they shoot at said individual player (this time a specific one) or not. And C. Yes. It's entirely possible that people have more than one pot, but here's the important bit: A player, including scum can only use one pain pot per night. If they target the person they're allotted to target with a pain pot, they specifically can't have targeted anyone else. If a third player dies at night, we KNOW two scum targeted that player with pain pots and thus that at most one scum targeted the designated targets. Harmography potions have the potential to confirm that someone targeted their designated target. This leads to two options: scum not killing outside of a pool we control collectively, or scum risking large numbers of pseudoclears, backing 2/3 of their team into a small PoE pool, both of which are positive EV for town.

[Bingle]

Oh, also, potions of Doctor are trash and shouldn't be used.

[Bingle]

Norwee is less specific than either of my other two town reads, but basically where in the last game Norwee felt like town to me but was lackluster, this Norwee feels like that Norwee but more. He's more aggressive, more present, and more willing to push for reads. Based on infinity's characterization, that makes me think this is townNorwee. Grain of salt, I think I've misread Norwee in literally every game I've ever played with him except for DNC 1 where he was just obviously not partnered with skitter or infinity. Still though, given mastina's lack of telling me I'm a moron there, I'm gonna guess this is just town Norwee.

[Bingle]

Harmography pots are our greatest tool here,

Agreed-ish. (JK pots might become more important later on.) But allowing the unleashed use of pain pots makes Harmography pots << useful. The way to weaken watchers is to add FVs.

Pots of Doctor don't necessarily save lives but DO muddy the waters on what other pots have been used. They actively give town less information than we otherwise would have had, and are unlikely to be useful. I suppose I shouldn't say they should never be used, but they should never be used in conjunction with pots of pain.

[Bingle]

That's standard Titus.

True. Why does that merit a townread?

If town you was lurking, would scumtitus NOT push you for lurking? I'm seeing all of Titus' thread interaction as very par for the course for Titus, and also completely unparseable for alignment. Of course Titus pushes your slot for actively avoiding the thread, but she does that regardless of her alignment.

[Bingle]

Green Cap Boys

The Emperor
ta vera

NorwegianboyEE

{The Limit Does Not Exist, Dwlee99, Titus}

cass.bruant

Fairy Circle (hydra of Momrangal and Flea the Magician)

Bingle

Rough readslist. I realize it's not great but is all I've got.

One last note:

With the exception of the obvious, this reads list seems pretty decent to me. This doesn't make me townread mastina by any stretch, but I do want to note it.

[Bingle]

Actually:

{Green Cap Boys The Emperor}


NorwegianboyEE


{The Limit Does Not Exist, mastina, Titus}

cass.bruant


{Dwlee Fairy Circle}

ta vera

would be my list. Spacing roughly indicative of strength of reads.

[Bingle]

Hey i don't regret voting Bingle if it's gonna make him put out a lot of posts.

TIL, Norwee doesn't really love me. He just wants me to put out.

[Bingle]

You're only after my effort. Mom used to warn me about boys like you.

[Bingle]

Green Cap Boys

The Emperor

how do you have these two names at the top of your readslist?

-D

Momcinda thinks you're town, I don't.

-Malefleacent

Ooooh! Hydra Dissonance!

I want you to explain why Mom thinks Norwee is town and Mom to explain why you think Norwee is scum.

[Bingle]

Not sure where the first quote came from tbh.

[Bingle]

I'm not sure if I'm liking T3 because he's town, or because he's saying all the things I'm saying.

[Bingle]

I can explain this pretty damn easily but I want to force Bingle to fullclaim with a full paraphrase of the entirety of his role PM, as much as he can without getting modkilled, before I do--I refuse to explain it before then because if I do then Bingle can try to wiggle his way out of his scumclaim.

I have no potions and was given a single ingredient, poison. It is unclear if anyone else would have gotten an ingredient, although I assume so given post 0, but they are explicitly flavor and the implication was that I got mine because I didn't get potions. I don't particularly care.

Further, you know that as scum I'm careful enough to check with the mod to get phrasing of a town PM, and this is at best a massive waste of everyone's time, but whatever.

[Bingle]

She never said anything about the scumclaim being due to claiming no potions. Where did you get this from?

She explicitly said I scumclaimed by saying that I had ingredients while asking schadd if there was a way to give ingredients to other people. I asked this because the ingredient I have is useful only in a potion of harmography and I would have immediately tried to instigate the creation of another potion of harmography. This is explicitly not the case as schadd later confirmed via pm that this is mechanically a real semi open (it’s not actually, due to flavored role pms, but whatever) and that there are thus no other town or scum power roles, such as someone who could combine ingredients into potions.

I believe the ‘scum slip’ mastina is going on about is an interpretation based on the absence or presence of ingredients associated with potions in one factions role pms and not the others, which frankly doesn’t make sense.

In order for the formatting of the role pms to mismatch that much, it would have to be a conscious choice by schadd to have scum and town use role pms that are formatted aggressively differently for no reason, which would suggest a conscious effort to make his game breakable by role pm comparison.

In case this is easily solveable via the inclusion of sample role pm’s:

@mod: would it be possible for you to generate a potionless sample town pm and a sample town pm with two pain potions and a potion of harmography? If possible, could you generate the same sample pms for scum, redacting non public information as necessary?

Note: I’m not arguing that this makes me town.

[Bingle]

RCEnigma replaces ta vera

Wow, it’s been hella fortnights. Welcome to the game.

[Bingle]

What do you think of my hero solve?

It's possible, I suppose, but I don't think it's particularly likely atm. Of the three I'd be most willing to vote Dwlee.

What are your reads outside of the hero solve? Particularly interested in the mastina read. I'm inclined to think she doesn't go for a "HA! SCUMSLIP!" argument as scum when she would inherently know that I'm not scum and thus that the slip isn't real. There is the possibility that she's leaning into a shitpush to get people to dismiss her as wrongtown here, but that really doesn't feel like the goal behind her posting.

What do you make of T3 individually? I actually think T3 has been fairly town this game. He has a similar presence to the draft game and his conclusions pretty closely match mine. I get that you think he has bad associations with NorDwlee, but is there anything about his individual play you're scumreading?

[Bingle]

Oh, weird. I assumed the potions had a constant ingredients list based on the OP.

[Bingle]

er, no. the ingredients lists literally have zero impact on the game. honestly I’m confused how you can have an ingredient without a potion.. but then none of this is making much sense to me.

- lilith

The sample potionless role PM matches mine except I got poison as an ingredient instead of a stolen crate. Poison is included as an ingredient in the Harmography potion (and only the harmography potion) in the OP. That's why I thought there might be a way to combine ingredients into potions.

[Bingle]

Disagree. T3 has been hyper serious which is more equal to his scum game than his town game. Compare Situation Room versus Not Quite Normal Multiball.

T3 was a similar level of serious in both Open Draft and Townstumps to here, both of which you were in and were more recent than NQNMulti. Both are also a better simulation of this game, being, you know, not multiball.

SRoom is the scum game I'm comparing my T3 baseline to, and he was both less active and didn't leave me with townfeels. His play was kinda just meh.

It's not impossible T3 is scum, but he's definitely not my choice of elimination AORN.

[Bingle]

First:

My role PM had poison specifically called an ingredient, in lieu of the crate of bottles.

Second:

Yes. Given the information from my role PM, I DID assume there was an additional mechanic of potion ingredient combination. That's pretty self evident. Entirely lacking in your questioning is why that's a specifically scum misunderstanding.

Third:

Yes. I've explicitly been using tools from my scum toolbox. Because I'm not a shitty player and my scum toolbox and town toolbox are remarkably similar toolboxes. (FWIW, my town toolbox is a subset of my scum toolbox, because there are some things that are effective as scum (laying false associatives, for example) that just don't have a town use). Your argument is about as relevant as arguing that me buddying someone is scum indicative, when more than most the way to read me is by looking at my results. Ask yourself this: Am I driving this thread in a direction where it is easier or harder for town to solve it?

Now that we've got that out of the way:

What do you make of Titus/RCE/Dwlee?

Dwlee specifically has been giving me flashbacks to Draft, where he was scum defending me from Titus in lieu of defending himself, and I want to know if you see the same thing.

[Bingle]

Alright, mechwall time:

Spoiler: CASE A: UNLEASHED ACTIONS

First of all, as mentioned earlier, doctor potions are completely irrelevant here. Potions of Harmography are similarly useless. For example, say for the sake of argument that mastina is scum and I am town. Mastina would obviously pain potion me, despite the fact that I'm a fairly townread individual. Further, it is unlikely that we as town get enough coordination to kill a scum player, because any actual scum that is likely to be double pain'd would be just as obvious a target to the scumteam. This case gives us absolutely no utility out of most of our potions and leaves us with only the JK potions really mattering. And even then, it's unlikely they matter much.

Spoiler: CASE B: No Pain Usage

Arguably, this is the best use of potions. JK and Harmography potions are both stronger, by virtue of the fact that any Harmography result is necessarily on scum, which is a straight up guilty as opposed to functionally unusable WIFOM nonsense. JK potions don't interfere with Harmography potions that target the same person, so they're still viable.

Spoiler: CASE C: Massclaim and Leash

Frankly, we don't have the time to accomplish this. It's possible it would outright break the setup, but that's reliant on RNG and I'm not going to be able to spend the time to untangle the route in any case.

Spoiler: CASE D: Limited Pool for Pain

First of all, a small pain pool gives us an additional chance that the pain usage actually kills the intended targets instead of just leaving people with 1 HP to muddy the waters on who we should be eliminating. Second, this gives us a use of harmography that is protown in nature.

Pain potions on slots that are already facing elimination from scum are a waste of scum's resources (also known as a good thing for town). In the case that deaths happen outside of the pain pool, any player who used pain INSIDE the pool becomes vastly more likely to be town. Further, if there are any harmography potions used outside of the pool of pain that catch the use of pain, that's still a guilty.

Ideally the pool should be either 1 or two players. 1 would make finding innocents more likely as any Harmography usage in that pool becomes highly indicative. 2 provides slightly more in the way of additional eliminations as it would mean scum would have to devote multiple JKs to stop the potential vigshots. And to be clear, it would in fact be in scum's best interest to stop a vig shot on town in the pain pools because that person would be a likely miselimination.

The thing Titus is dancing around: Scum should not actually kill a player tonight. Arsonist >> Goon. It's a pretty trivial understanding, but putting their shots into three separate players is better for scum because it denies us information right now and doesn't negatively impact their turns to win. Obviously, this may be different because of the composition of the scum team and whether a specific player is scary, but what this REALLY means is that scum is likely to spread out their kills tonight, regardless of what we do. We want to use harmography specifically tonight because of this.

My suggestion, for N1 we use the No Pain option and for N2 we use the Limited pool option. This gives us more information when targeting the vig shot (possibly even a guilty) and gives us optimal usage of the harmography potions on the night when it's most likely for them to be useful. If scum goes wide on kills, they increase the chances we hit one of them with a watcher result. If scum goes for a kill, they risk being caught as MULTIPLE BAD ACTORS by one investigation. The holstering of the vigs also gives us more potential harmography results tonight as a scummy player with a harmography potion still has a chance at getting a result before they die.

Note: in absolutely none of these cases should anyone claim whether they are using harmography, jk, doc or pain before the night, as that gives a road map to let scum try to fuck us with JKs. Additionally, in the limited pain pool option, each individual should make their own call on who to harmography, as both catching scum outside of the harmography pool and confirming town inside of it are powerful tools.

[Bingle]

Bimgle seems like the perfect metadive candidate *rubs hands*

I'll save you a bit of time if you want:

Effort is very slightly scum indicative, although I do have both low effort scumgames and high effort towngames. I haven't had a high effort scumgame in a while afaicr, but they are the norm over the whole of my mafia career.

I absolutely adore being run up early as both alignments, as weak cases against scum me that get torn apart give me room to play with and early wagons on town me give me an analysis point to jump off of. I don't rely on making endgame as either alignment, because I can't consistently find the WIM to tear apart cases against me. As a result, I vastly prefer to set up my partners to endgame as scum and to make the game itself easier to solve as town.

Mastina is wrong about me being lazy D1. I am in fact more likely to be active D1 as either alignment because I'm less likely to have become bored with the setup. What I believe she's misunderstanding is that it's not ever really my goal to catch scum on D1. I'm always trying instead to put as many people as possible in the hotseat where they have to take positions that they can then be read on the basis of later. D1 is all about poking people to make associations fall out so that I or others can then look into the interplay. Catching scum is gravy.

[Bingle]

Scum!Bingle in DQ2

Bad scumgame to compare to, btw.

I expected to be limmed D1 or 2 in that game and it was all about setting Vanderscamp up to win.

[Bingle]

Dwlee specifically has been giving me flashbacks to Draft, where he was scum defending me from Titus in lieu of defending himself, and I want to know if you see the same thing.

This is not a comparable scenario at all and stop doing meta

Is there any particular reason you're answering for mastina?

Also, please look at mech wall and tell me if you agree that we should no pain tonight and pain in a small pool tomorrow.

[Bingle]

I don't have much experience with scum!bingle outside of bastard games.

Eh. The type of scumgame mastina is comparing this to is one that I think you might be the only other person itt who has seen from me. Mastina is arguing that this is Fogport Bingle.

[Bingle]

I disagree with no paining, I think to make the use of our pseudo vigilante shots we need to use them early before people town die and we have less potions.

Yeah... Why?

You know, because I gave an actual argument for why to pain on later nights instead of earlier nights? And because paining actively takes away the utility of the most powerful town role?

Support your position.

[Bingle]

If you're harmographying someone that town will shoot you're using your potion wrong.

If you don't have a justification for who you're paining you're a shit scum player.

[Bingle]

implies that bingle has a potion....with an ingredient. did he claim to be potionless and i missed it?

I am indeed potionless, and claimed such far earlier. My role PM had the ingredient of poison as both confirmation method and as flavor, similarly to the broken box of potion bottles.

I'm also absolutely convinced that mastina is convinced that she's right, which means I think she's town.

[Bingle]

Mastina
{Green Cap Boys The Emperor}

T3

NorwegianboyEE
{The Limit Does Not Exist, Titus}

RCE
{Dwlee Fairy Circle}


I think Dwlee's reticence to holster pain potions N1/engage with my reasoning to do so is actually scum indicative here. He either slipped or faked a slip that he has no duplicate potions, so from a town him perspective holding onto pain potions until D2 shouldn't be a big issue. Also, scum specifically benefit from town blowing pain potions in an early and disorganized manner.

I'm also slightly concerned with Norwee's progression wrt me. He seemed to have a pretty strong town read of me that he dropped for very little reason. It's possible that he's just sheeping mastina based on her catching him last game (his justification) but I felt like his read on me was more solid than that given T3's conflicting meta examination and

Green Cap Boys, Emperor, Bingle i never think flips scum tbh.
My Bingle read just went 180 wow.

Still north of null based on content, but definitely a weaker read than before.

[Bingle]

He either slipped or faked a slip that he has no duplicate potions

Uh no I didn't?

Oh, weird. I assumed the potions had a constant ingredients list based on the OP.

I also thought that the potions had constant ingredients but I didn't cross check with the OP.

sample P + P + H town PM:

Spoiler:

welcome to mystery box of silver 13! you are a

townie

with the following inventory of potions:

potion of Harmography:

at night, you may drink this potion and gaze discerningly at another player. come morning, you will find out each player that enacted a potion action to deal damage to them.

ingredients: music , applesauce (BONE-DRY & TART!!), Pulp, pulp

potion of Pain:

at night, you may drizzle this on a player's dinner; they will take 1 HP of damage by the end of the night. a player is unable to use more than one Pain potion each night.

ingredients: water, poison, firebones

potion of Pain:

at night, you may drizzle this on a player's dinner; they will take 1 HP of damage by the end of the night. a player is unable to use more than one Pain potion each night.

ingredients: hibiscus, sorry

you win when all threats to the town are eliminated. please confirm by telling me your alignment & an ingredient to one of your potions

Please note: the two potions of pain that have different ingredients lists.

[Bingle]

Why is Titus high?

I'd be the first to admit I can't read Titus worth shit, but that having been said, a lot of Titus's work here looks like what I'd think would be town for her.

However, the true clincher: Titus making a hero solve.

Some people are townreading me partially because of my hero solve, but where do you think I got the idea to make one from? Titus made a hero-solve before I do so if you townread me for my hero solve you should be townreading Titus for hers. I just don't think scum-Titus makes a hero solve like that, especially if it is so brazenly stepping on too many town players' toes. It's the sort of thing she'll get basically zero support for and receive nothing but negative attention for, yet she still seems to believe in it. While it's not impossible for Titus to be scum, this behavior radiates town from her.

I don't think anyone is actually reading you as town based on you having a hero solve. I think people are reading you as town because you clearly genuinely believe your push on me. Why does a Norwee/Dwlee/T3 solve seem likely to draw negative attention to you?

What I believe she's misunderstanding is that it's not ever really my goal to catch scum on D1. I'm always trying instead to put as many people as possible in the hotseat where they have to take positions that they can then be read on the basis of later. D1 is all about poking people to make associations fall out so that I or others can then look into the interplay. Catching scum is gravy.

No, that's actually more or less precisely what I am talking about--your goal isn't to catch scum on D1, you like to pressure people, multiple people, to get that extra info.

So why then have your efforts been to make one lengthy scumcase and two lengthy towncases? Neither of those fit the mold of putting many people in the hotseat.

I made a serious push barely post RVS on one slot which then went MIA and explained it when prompted to and explained my townreads when I'd been run up to (E-2 I think, but am not checking) based on nothing more than the thing that is clearly not a scumslip. Both of these things happened in a time of serious threadlag. I also have been fairly consistently poking at people since then.

[Bingle]

But yes, I have two in my PoE. There's 11 players, so we might not even have 3 scum anyway.

Are you aware that roughly 3/4 of the content this game is about how this game has an open setup and this looks like the laziest fake slip of all time?

[Bingle]

In post 911, Dwlee99 wrote:
Read
My
Posts
The irony is thick.

(I haven't forgotten how many people said this to Dwlee last game.)

The irony is even thicker, considering I keep asking Dwlee to read my mech post and he keeps saying he'll do it later.

[Bingle]

Mastina, sell me on LimitScum.

[Bingle]

Fyi didn't read your big wall but I will BUT (X2) I will probably still disagree

Most recent post of yours about the mech wall.

If you've read it, what is your response?

Do you disagree that in either case of {scum go wide, scum kill dangerous player} town not using pain potions makes harmography potions more powerful? Do you disagree that not paining today and paining in a consensus pool tomorrow makes sense? Do you have an argument for why free shooting is better? If you support limited pool paining, what pool do you want?

[Bingle]

We lose pain potions waiting and I think harmography potions will be fine anyway. I also want to pain Titus tonight.

Is this contingent on a specific Fairy flip? Does "This then makes all of Titus' Potions useless" affect this desire? Do you expect that town not having enough pain potions is going to be a thing that matters in this game literally at all, when a long game vastly favors town?

[Bingle]

Just E-1, but I’d prefer to actually have a plan in place before night.

Particularly, people who are Uber townreading Titus to convince dwlee not to act like an idiot and dwlee to justify his every pain potion matters stance.

[Bingle]

why care about what dwlee is doing with a pain potion if you think he's scum? either way i think its a minor problem to begin with.

Because dwlee fighting against solid logic with no reasoning is scum indicative from him imo? Either he gives me an argument, or I demonstrate the behavior he should be getting limmed over.

[Bingle]

If town with two pain potions dies tonight we lose a vig shot.

Why is this important? This reads to me as less convincing than "We should no lim because we might hit a doctor." because a vig shot can also hit a player with pain potions.

Vig, in this setup, is garbage tier. It's literal best use is in interacting with our watchers.

Claims should have absolutely no bearing on the elimination.

[Bingle]

What are your thoughts on the wagons?

I'd hammer either, although I prefer FC to Titus.

[Bingle]

Plurality voting? Cool.

VOTE: FC

Wagons currently tied at 4, Titus to die at Deadline.

[Bingle]

Meta to clear people is generally bad, meta to case people is generally good. Assuming it's well applied.

[Bingle]

Actually why are we wagoning bingle again?

Because mastina thinks my play is too towny to be town. Literally the whole reason.

[Bingle]

Pain potions get claimed first, harmography potions get claimed second, this might actually be XLO and I’m at E-1, btw.

[Bingle]

Oh, e-2, now -3.

[Bingle]

Honestly, I give just about 0 shits about this game. Mastina’s shit tunnel on me is fucking exhausting and there is literally no response that I can give to get her to reconsider it because she’ll take it as me being really good at scum.

As a consolation prize I get to point at this game for all of eternity when she tries to scumreading me. T3 had a ball yesterday trying to point out how all of the meta used against me was trash and yet still considered paining me, apparently, and despite me repeatedly pointing out that pain potions fired randomly into a crowd were likely to do absofuckingllutely nothing to help us and no one engaging in said theory it seems to me that everyone’s decision was let’s fire pain potions indiscriminately into the crowd so that scum probably gets three night kills on N2.

It’s almost like this setup WAS FUCKING BALANCED AROUND unreliable scum kills and collectively the player list decided “Hey, let’s simultaneously dump our utility roles in the garbage and make it more likely scum gets to actually make kills.”

[Bingle]

If scum!Bingle would he target town!Mastina?

God no. Even if I were scum, mastina’s tunnel on me is just shutting up the thread. She’s actively making it impossible to solve the rest of the game.

I don’t give a fuck about getting suspected and/or limmed as scum, because all I have to do is make sure my teammates have the position to win.

Frankly, I’d have been shocked if anyone shot mastina.

[Bingle]

Idk maybe I'm fourth scumming here cause I also pushed Titus but I feel like RCE is a good lim here probably.

No, you’re fourth scumming of town by pissing all over town’s mechanical advantage. Titus was loltunnelling, which is NAI, and we limmed her because she was a pile of null that managed to offend Norwee and T3 by scumreading them.

[Bingle]

Look at the resistance bingle got

Yup. Resistance. Like when I hit E-1 because mastina said I scumclaimed and then didn’t explain why for literally days. You know, the scum claim that literally no one but mastina thinks was a scum claim. Like the continued unwillingness to eliminate me on the basis of “he’s too town to be town” that everyone clearly sees. Like dwlee calling out something he thinks is a town slip from me and then immediately blindsheeping mastina to vote me.

But there was absolutely no resistance when a wagon sprang up on you, despite the sun total of your first five days of thread contribution being “Momcinda has these reads but she’s also unavailable and I can’t explain her reads.” That’s why we ended yesterday with a plurality lim on Titus.

[Bingle]

I think you missed where I didn't use a pain potion last night and Titus was blatantly making stuff up about events in thread.

I’m sorry but “I can’t be held responsible for people lol shooting into the crowd because I didn’t” rings a bit hollow when our entire conversation yesterday was “Town should absolutely not lolshoot into the crowd because reasons.” And “no, I want to”

[Bingle]

I don't trust pain potions to serve as guaranteed eliminations here given that:
-Scum players can lie about having pain potion'd a player and thus a player we think we could kill, could end up surviving
-Scum players can, if they have them, doctor/jailkeep players and thus negate pain potions on them and thus a player we think we could kill, could end up surviving
-Town players can be roleblocked by a jailkeeper and thus a player we think we could kill, could end up surviving
-There are multiple players that are good eliminations who have been pain potioned; we can't remove all of them from the elimination pool just because all of them have been targeted by a pain potion.

Oh, you mean Bingle was right and pain potions are negative utility that should not have been used N1? Cool.

[Bingle]

I don't think Lilith's RL stuff is any more scum indicative than Mom's, FWIW, but I think that Fleas behavior in Mom's absence is way scummier than S_S's. I have limit as pretty hardline null.

Still townreading all of Norwee/mastina/Emp/GCB, probably in that order of surety. Not really interested in reevaluating there today.

I was wrong on how close I came to elimination today, (for some reason that I can't explain but that is probably easily guessed I was thinking micro), but it IS still potential ELO.

I'm willing to admit there's a chance I'm confbiasing my reads on T3 and Dwlee, but I haven't seen anything that really makes me want to reconsider if someone actually has an argument.

To anyone TR-ing FC: Why?

[Bingle]

Bearing in mind you modded for me and played against me, what am I doing here that's so incredibly scummy?

My big concerns with you are that in mom’s absence you leaned into moms absence and you outright refused when I tried to gain insight to your hydra intraplay.

[Bingle]

Momcinda thinks you're town, I don't.

-Malefleacent

Ooooh! Hydra Dissonance!

I want you to explain why Mom thinks Norwee is town and Mom to explain why you think Norwee is scum.

It started here, but you’ve had several instances of “Our reads don’t align” and I haven’t seen any real effort put into making those reads align or explaining why they don’t align.

[Bingle]

T3, why did you suggest the most time and effort intensive NA plan with less than 24 hours in the day?

[Bingle]

Anyway bingle and tldne only really interact on mech topics. The strongest opinion bingle has even given on the tldne was after prodding from norwee but there hasn't been any progression there. So there is partner equity with tldne remaining a stagnant null read.

I mean... Yeah? SS is pretty unreadable to me and Lilith is someone I don't know well, but who is absent for RL reasons: clearly not a high priority sort by any metric. I'd be unsurprised if they flipped either way.

[Bingle]

I actually like RCE on the last couple of pages looking at what scumteams make sense. It's a pretty town way of parsing the game, mostly because he's aiming it at where not to vote rather than where to vote. I'm aware that his takeaway is that FC and I aren't S/S, which is pretty obvious, but the angle and thoughts to reach that strike me as townish.

Also, I realized who would be my most likely scumpartner in this setup and it's funny enough that I'm going to share it regardless of the fact that it's probably going to make Norwee lockscum me.

It's mastina. Mastina has been consistently pushing me, but just enough that I'm able to break the momentum fairly easily. She disappears just often enough to keep me relevant to the thread while not actually putting me in any significant danger and her reasoning is reasonable but not altogether convincing. This is 100% the plan we'd have settled on if we were scum together this game, and in fact the only person I'd be more likely to pull this with is Pine. We also share a very similar PoE pool which allows her to compromise on any push I make under the premise she thinks I'm bussing.

Yes, I'm aware I just S/S theater cased myself and someone I'm strongly townreading and that actually voicing these thoughts is a terrible idea. Deal with it.

[Bingle]

FWIW, your plan was 100% a decent one, and it was one I addressed in my wall (which is why I'm bringing this up, I thought it was kinda strange that Datisi argued against it on the grounds I said it was a bad idea when in reality I argued against it because I don't think it was viable to pull off on D1 and rather is a better D3 plan when potions were running low all around and we would presumably get the most return for targeted shots). I don't think GCB calling you out on parroting a plan I'd dismissed as too complicated to organize as "Bingle said no" is ever S/S.

[Bingle]

For Divide and Conquer flashbacks?

Yes.

[Bingle]

I’m very interested to hear mastina’s reaction to our harmography claim, she doesn’t appear to have reacted at all.

- lilith

Why would she respond?

[Bingle]

Because we talk it over, I don't mind talking about my reads, or if they don't align, I'm not going to talk for Mom though. I either talk for me, or for both of us.

The point of the question is that if town, you probably are talking about your reads. If mom has reads that are strong enough to disagree with you over, she's probably given you at least rudimentary reasoning on them, despite her inability to be in the thread herself. You don't have to agree with the read to be able to share the reasons she's given.

Frankly, your responses made/make me think you aren't actually discussing your reads, and scum has a much larger motivation for that than town. So again, I ask:

Why do you disagree on the reads you disagree on?

[Bingle]

Note: in absolutely none of these cases should anyone claim whether they are using harmography, jk, doc or pain before the night, as that gives a road map to let scum try to fuck us with JKs.

@t3: bingle EXPLICITLY SAID don’t declare targets.

- lilith

@GCB: I was talking about this post you made pretending to be Lilith from Lilith’s hydra.

Also, in my teal deer I apparently glossed over the potential setup break I’d discarded from the massclaim case as unlikely and unlikely to be coordinated.

[Bingle]

What I see as external motivation,

Where?

[Bingle]

Should i just sheep Mastina on their Bingle read?

That, or my + Datisi's read on The Limit Does Not Exist.

I'm not exactly picky as to which.

What are your current takes on FC?

What would Bingletown do to your reads?

[Bingle]

Should i just sheep Mastina on their Bingle read?

FWIW, I don't think anyone should ever sheep mastina on a Bingle read. As per mastina:

she just knows I don't like being townread early.

In a game where I'm not struggling to form reads I'd humor you by obliging and recognizing that your strong scumgame means that you're not someone who is really truly readable on D1 but gets a pass to be read over time, placing you basically as above null on principle but only just, as to admit that you're not clearly and unambiguously town.

This is not one of those games though.

In a game where I'm struggling to form reads at all, fuck it, right or wrong I'm calling you town for the sake of

having

reads.

[Bingle]

I'm wondering how many fail eliminations we actually get before game over.

The nature of the pain potions makes this an unknown quantity.

Objectively, I'm probably the best town elimination today.

[Bingle]

Okay then let's vote emperor or do something. Game is stalled and I don't agree with your premise that mastina has to be town here

Do you have an theory on scum!Mastina?

If somehow scum mastina, there's definitely scum in her scumreads. I'd guess FC, since FC has been the secondary read all along and is a strange pairing with me/largely unexplained in comparison. It's not though, she's town here.

[Bingle]

now it's... I don't even know what it is because it's been too long for me to remember but it wasn't convincing.

I efforted and obvtowned and I do that more often as scum than town.

[Bingle]

More to the point, though, Dwlee, regardless of the quality of the case on me, I 100% believe it to be mastina's true beliefs here. Wrong =/= scum, and generally scum has a harder time being aggressively wrong. Like, look at the cases (multiple) on me and tell me that she's faking those thoughts. They're wrong and silly. But if everyone who was wrong and silly was lockscum Titus would have flipped red.

[Bingle]

Hey, mom. Why do you think I’m scum?

[Bingle]

I dont see any scum motivation is confirming that we and only we shot st bingle if they are scum with bingle.

In fact, its a much more pro-scum action to just keep quiet because they cant afford to IC a plauer, especially when they cant just simply kill them off at night.

That means your wrong somewhere. I would ask you to reconsider green bois, I don't think they deserve to be that high in your list.

There’s an interesting lack of any paranoia here. Limit claimed a watch on me after most actions were claimed, and thus it was a pretty safe claim to make. If we were S/S then limit doesn’t actually lose anything having confirmed I was shot once unless the premise is that you shouldn’t get towncred from day play.

VOTE: FC

Limit is a pretty shit wagon, tbh. It gives no more info than Titus’ did yesterday.

[Bingle]

Objectively, I'm probably the best town elimination today.

Not sure if saying WIFOM to sound town as scum or if actually honestly thinking this.

Eh, check out betrayal.

I have no pots, I’m already presumably wounded, and my flip gives clarity to a bunch of interactions.

[Bingle]

What are your current takes on FC? What would Bingletown do to your reads?

These are things I will answer!

...On D3.

VOTE: The Limit Does Not Exist

More votes/support here than on Bingle.

Justify based on lack of discussion you might stifle.

It’s not like FC can back off of the hard commit here regardless.

[Bingle]

While Titus was my strongest TR, the method I use to read her is an absolute pain and can be massively reliable if used on you for example.

Oh? Do tell, because afaik the list of people capable of reading me regularly is functionally a separate set from the list of people who regularly play mafia.

Additionally, I don’t think we’ve even had a T/T game for you to believe this.

[Bingle]

Belay that last, fae was town in ODM and *maybe* trd me based on not calling me out for my deadline vote D1.

[Bingle]

I remember having played with you recently and you were easy to scum read there as town

We did. It was yggdrasil. I was an activated IC who slayers gambited on D1 and then outed.

[Bingle]

Absolutely done with this game. Since everyone has checked in, I’m assuming all pain potions have been claimed already if used. We harmographied Bingle and can confirm Fairy Circle pain potioned him. So at least one of these slots is town, as I certainly don’t think scum is going around pain potioning each other. which makes mastina’s solve literally impossible.

- lilith

Lilith's claim. Prior to lilith's claim, with some reasonable assumptions:

Town would not lie.
Bingle did not pain Bingle, and in fact had claimed no potions the day before.
Mastina vote on Bingle -> Mastina did not heal Bingle.
FC claimed a pain on Bingle.
T3 pained Limit
Dwlee vote on Bingle -> Dwlee did not heal Bingle.
Norwee harmo'd mastina
RCE pained FC
Emporer did not pain
GCB - didn't bother checking because one degree of freedom couldn't introduce risk.

So unless GCB had both pained and healed me, unless I was healed limit could be reasonably sure I was pained exactly once. The only way I was healed was if it was done by GCB, which wouldn't catch limit in a lie, or if scum did it. IF limit is scum here, they knew that their claim of only you having pained me was a safe one to make before they made it. This is not evidence that limit is scum, btw, just evidence that townreading limit on the basis of the Harmo result is blegh.

As to why limit would out the info? It gives them a reasonable-ish action to have taken N1. It's only potentially clearing if one of us flips scum, and as I know I won't and I appear likely to flip before you (And did at the time of lilith's claim) it's completely unlikely to be clearing in any case.

[Bingle]

not taking controversial takes.

Paired together with Mastinas meta read on you

You realize that Mastina's meta read on me is that I'm scum because I pushed ta vera (now RCE) as scum early despite no takers and took the time to case the read and towncased most of the consensus town players before they were consensus, and she doesn't think that town me puts that much effort into the game, right?

These are contradictory, and I think you're full of shit.

[Bingle]

completely terrible

It isn't. It's weak, but I AM slightly more likely to effort as scum than as town, particularly given that I haven't had a scumgame that made sense to effort in in quite a while. It is 100% reasonable for mastina to see my behavior and go "Oh shit, is Bingle scum here?" I am objectively not an awful elimination choice.

More though, the reactions to the case are terrible. No one who has leant any support to the case has in any way shown an effort in actually reading me. Some of these (Norwee for example) have been up front about it. Waffley and unsure, but willing to trust the word of a townread.

Others (Mom) have been very vocal about how I'm obvious scum for no real reason.

WRT Fleameta, you're townreading faer for omgus tunneling you, when I don't really see an omgus tunnel. The admission that Flea engages in meta manipulation only strengthens my "Don't give a fuck" about your metaclear. ​Mastina locktowned faer in ODM early and accurately and has had literally the exact opposite reaction here. Their (collective) entire approach to hydra-ing gives the impression of not wanting to be held accountable for things.

[Bingle]

I get thr vibe that Bingle is playing very reactively and trying to do exactly what is required to avoid the lim. Rather than solving for real and of their own voalition.

Not what I'm doing, not what mastina's claiming I'm scum for, and not a scumtell for me, but this is the kind of thing that makes Norwee's reaction to me a town one compared to Momflea's.

[Bingle]

If you make Mastina doubt herself i’ll consider voting FC.
Part of the reason why i’m voting you is because Mastina has given no signal that she doesn’t 100% believe you are scum.

Nah, I’m good. The field in which I grow my fucks lies empty and barren.

[Bingle]

If this is town I will eat my anime hat.

What warrants such confidence? Or do you just have a taste for hats?

-S

I don't see a world in which you are town tbh

Mind explaining why?

I don’t see a particularly strong case to town or scum them. If they flip town, it will have 0 impact on my reads. If they flip scum I’ll think specifically you are slightly more likely to be town, but not with any real degree of certainty.

I’d rather not do D1 three times if we can avoid it.

[Bingle]

If you make Mastina doubt herself i’ll consider voting FC.
Part of the reason why i’m voting you is because Mastina has given no signal that she doesn’t 100% believe you are scum.

Nah, I’m good. The field in which I grow my fucks lies empty and barren.

To expound: the tools I would have to use to buck the lim here are exactly the same from town me and scum me, and mastina knows it. Anything I do to try and convince mastina I’m town is what I’d be doing as scum to try to convince mastina I’m town, and because both of us are aware of that, there’s no point in doing any of those things.

I could point out that mastina hasn’t been consistent with reading me since 2015 when we played ikaruga and my strategy for the game was literally make sure no one listens to mastina, but that argument isn’t an alignment indicative one.

It is far more productive for me to talk about how I think RCE’s looking for reasons people aren’t paired is probably a town approach to solving, how your inability to pin down how you should be treating me but attempting to do so repeatedly and seemingly genuinely at that looks like you genuinely don’t know my alignment, how T3 is giving off exactly the same vibe as he did in his last like 4 town games but how the way he’s treating individual slots is slightly off and so I’m conflicted.

But here’s the rub: that^ is also not town indicative, because that’s also a great way to set up false associations and generate townreads. I could try to burn the thread down and make my elim a slog, but that’s a pain in the ass. I could strategically buddy the right people to keep myself alive, and it would probably be a better route to take than assuming I can manipulate the gamestate enough to win this early, but that would require a lot of WIM.

The only way to ensure I’m not a distraction is to either eliminate me or end the game.

[Bingle]

I’d rather not do D1 three times if we can avoid it.

Do you think RCE flip gives us info?

Yes, but I also think he’s town atm.

[Bingle]

Mastina
{Green Cap Boys The Emperor}

T3

NorwegianboyEE
{The Limit Does Not Exist, Titus}

RCE
{Dwlee Fairy Circle}

Mastina
NorwegianboyEE



{Green Cap Boys, The Emperor}

T3

RCE
The Limit Does Not Exist
Dwlee

Fairy Circle

Spacing intentional, GCB and Emporer stale and probably due reevaluation. Limit full null line. Norwee my never today line.

[Bingle]

If FC flips town how does your list change?

I’d hard reset there. It would tell me my game state read is way off base.

Wrt my reads list being bad: Sure, that’s possible. Which specific reads do you think are bad?

[Bingle]

What’s your reads list?

[Bingle]

What about my logic wrt mastina/RCE do you disagree with?

Also, I specifically want a non associative based read list, not a hero solve.

Petit: got ninjad.

[Bingle]

What about mastina’s case strikes you as not a genuine case, especially in the light of my admission that the things she’s calling me scum for are things I do as scum?

Wrt RCE, which posts of his are scummy? I can recall less reasoning for the push there than on Lilith/ss, which is impressive given that I RVS cased that slot.

[Bingle]

Meta already left you and is now with someone else.

If she finds that I've been 'round to see you tell her that I'm well and feelin' fine. Don't let on; don't say, "She broke my heart." I'd go down on my knees but it's no good to pine.

[Bingle]

oh hey bingle is here

bingle i saw a glimpse of you saying you wanna reeval or slot, anything you want to ask me or have me look at?

-D

Any chance you can read all of the GCB posts again and get fresh impressions and then also download those fresh impressions into my brain? Cause that's what I need to do.

[Bingle]

though i am kind of interested in why you plan on rereading rather than making me produce more content? i thought you townread or earlier contributions

-D

I haven't really been reading you critically for a while, so there's not really a lack of content to look at. I'm not really worried about prodding you to see what you say because of that, and in fact am more interested in what you get up to unprodded.

[Bingle]

Flips on any of those would give us boatloads of information regardless of the alignments within.

I’ll bite.

How does your read on me change if limit flips town? Scum?

Who can’t be scum with limit?

[Bingle]

Butyeah, I do not believe there's zero scum in {Bingle, TLDNE, Fairy Circle}.

FWIW, I absolutely believe there are 1-2 scum in these three names. I’d 100% be behind eliminating either me or FC and paining exclusively in the other two tonight, with reevaluations on a scum flip. This leaves us with an exceedingly low chance for the scum team to win outright tonight (we’d presumably be flipping scum and even if somehow that’s three town names we’d be paining people that overlap with the potential pool of players that have already lost hp.

I would argue that I shouldn’t be pained on an FC scumflip, but it’s not a hill I’d die on.

[Bingle]

The idea behind my gamestate read here is that there doesn't really seem to be resistance to pushing limit except from me.

You/me/FC, actually.

[Bingle]

It is very unlikely this is XLO actually and also I pointed out that this was likely an arsonist mechanic yesterday when arguing a strategy no one would listen to. If this is any form of XLO, no eliming does basically nothing to help.

[Bingle]

It is XLO if there is damage done on three town, scum have 3 pain pots, no town jk/doc a no target, AND no scum die tonight. If we eliminate someone who has been pained, it drops the odds of one or three. Scum having three pain pots split between their members remaining isn’t a sure thing by any means.

[Bingle]

we can't no-yeet, plurality is in effect.

We might could manually vote no yeet, setup doesn’t specify. It’s still not a good idea.

[Bingle]

You're the only one doing anything

-S

[Bingle]

bingle, teal dear on dwlee/fc being below your null line? you can link it if you've explained it elsewhere

-D

Anti town setup spec with a clear lack of desire to engage and reevaluate when called on it, wk-y feels from him when he was being associative read with norwee/t3 by Titus, wk-y feels regarding me.

Also gut.

It’s not a crazy strong read though, and I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong there if you wanna try to convince me.

[Bingle]

How can you say no desire to reevaluate or engage when I have been trying to get something out of people the past couple of days and I haven't done any anti-town setup whatever cause I harmographied last night.

No desire to reevaluate specifically your setup spec D1 where you advocated letting people shoot wherever the fuck they felt like. Not no desire to revaluate your reads. That was a continuation of point 1.

I’m kinda confused why me thinking that’s scummy is news to you when I’ve been talking about it for like a week.

[Bingle]

Bingle almost went through on mastina just saying "scum claim" lol

I'm gonna venture a guess that that was not the main reason.

-S

It really was. There were a bunch of town reads on me, mastina said the ingredient thing was a scum claim without any context, my elim almost went through based on sheeping, she explained the scum claim claim, people realized it was dumb, the wagon dissolved, she reached with meta and there wasn’t support.

Since then, support has grown again.

I still don’t think mastina is scum. The overlap of the scum claim thing and the meta case that I think she believes on specifically me doesn’t strike me as her style.

[Bingle]

Recased, not reached. Fuck autocorrect.

[Bingle]

The Limit Does Not Exist (3): Green Cap Boys, Aristeia

Where the fuck is aristeia? Also, who the fuck is aristeia?

[Bingle]

If scum has a deepwolf it's likely Mastina.

If mastina is scum she picked the exact combination of push with shit reasoning and push with legitimate reasoning on me to pocket me and did so while it was becoming apparent that I would lose WIM and thus not be around for the long game. She went about it in a way that would give her very little control over eliminations that weren't specifically on me and which would discredit her reads immediately after I flipped, meaning she couldn't throw her weight around to help her partners as easily. I don't think that's likely at all.

[Bingle]

I think my reads are pretty damned good considering the amount of resistance they have in a frankly stale game.

Bullshit.

Not only is your 'case' on me a weaksauce pile of garbage that had to be dragged out by me I have been consistently accruing votes anyway. Compare: my case on you:

Fairy Circle (2): RCEnigma, Bingle

Your argument is far more suggestive that you're scum than that you're right. But go ahead and prove me wrong and show all the scum resistance to a Bingle elimination (Dwlee? Limit? Literally no one else?)

[Bingle]

Animeland, Pooky alt.

Irrelevant. She repped in posted no content and has done nothing since. I demand at least 20% pulp.

[Bingle]

I already explained that I wanted scum to think I'd shoot, not that I was actually going to.

And I pointed out that the actual result of what you did was pain potions going wide and harmography potions being pretty much useless, which is exactly the reason we shouldn't have let pain potions be used unleashed in the first place.

Is there a point to rehashing this conversation when we've already had it? Dats asked for a teal deer summary of why I think you're scum. You've defended yourself, I read those defenses, I still think the scum motivation is larger than the town motivation.

[Bingle]

Bingle what do you think would differentiate town and scum!me's defense of you?

I don't think it's possible to give an example of a behavior that didn't occur. You did a thing. I got an impression based on that thing. Asking me to describe how you could have done that thing and not left that same impression is so open ended it's meaningless.

The hyperfocus on my read of you makes me think I'm right about your alignment. Like, this focus on "I should be getting towncred for defending you!" comes across as super concerned with your own personal image, which frankly I doubt town you is worried about at the moment, given the four names on the metaphorical chopping block are all not yours.

[Bingle]

what case?

The questionable leaning on your absence by flea before you got into the game, the weaponized dissonance, the convenient not even fucking knowing what mastina was talking about when sheeping her, the pointing out that T3's meta case on you town was false (because we've definitely seen you OMGUS tunnel someone this game ).

It's like it's been the bulk of what I've been talking about for days or something.

[Bingle]

also, you're literally an IC in the event of a "fairy scumflip" and anyone paining you at that point is confirmed scum so like

I would not be, no. See, I have this thing called a reputation, and because of said reputation I don't ever get to claim IC status based on associations. It's like that's the mastina case you're sheeping.

As far as not scrambling for towncred goes: duh? Why the fuck would I try to argue that I'm town based on your flip. If I'm locktown based on you flipping scum, then that's because the other people in the thread believe it, and my belief doesn't matter. Me going "Oh ho, I'm going to be an IC!" wouldn't make that sentence any more or less true. I also think it's likely I flip first here because you're strangely impossible to get any support on.

[Bingle]

I'm not really interested in T3, tbh. It doesn't solve the FC/me dichotomy that has dragged this game into hell.

[Bingle]

Can it instead be Romeo and Juliet, but the version from the 90's with all the leather outfits?

[Bingle]

The context on that quote is a player saying they didn't do something that they did in fact do.

link the lie?

[Bingle]

it'll get solved tonight

Or it can get solved today and I don't have to deal with you 'guiltying' me by just failing to shoot.

[Bingle]

Sorry for the replacement, thanks to Reinhardt for taking over (as short as that lasted).

WP everyone, and thanks for the game schadd_