Newbie 2076 [Game Over]

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi.

[LicketyQuickety]

What is everyone's experience playing Mafia?

[LicketyQuickety]

Why?

I would also like to know.

[LicketyQuickety]

What is everyone's experience playing Mafia?

RQS is a scum tell. It's an irrelevant question that's just there to make you look busy.

VOTE: LQ

What is everyone's experience playing Mafia?

I've been playing on MS semi-regularly since I joined.

VOTE: Margot

You're forgetting that the D/P remakes are coming out later this year. Also, "honestly" tell.

P.S. Hockey is town on vibes.

What do you have against honesty?

It's nothing major, but it's simply that scum sometimes have a tendency to overuse words that they think will "sound" more towny.

Had a newbie game where someone said "tbh" over thirty times and turned out to be scum. They still won even after it was pointed out as a scum tell too.

Uh huh. What's your sample size for that?

[LicketyQuickety]

If you're asking about the RQS scum tell sample size, you've been on this site long enough to know that one.

If it's the "tbh" tell I'm not sure how you expect me to source that unless you want me to comb through every newbie game and CTRL+F scum ISO's for "tbh" and "honestly". Which uh, I'm not gonna do. But I'm clearly not the only one who's heard of that tell anyway.

You used the honesty tell unironically, same for the RQS tell, which I have never heard of. If you look through my newbie games, you will see I like RQS better than RVS.

[LicketyQuickety]

At least for Newbie games.

[LicketyQuickety]

Mafia not killing anyone is worse than them killing a VT. It's not logical for them to take that risk.

Are you suggesting that Scum will not used their NK if we do this strategy?

[LicketyQuickety]

Mafia not killing anyone is worse than them killing a VT. It's not logical for them to take that risk.

Are you suggesting that Scum will not used their NK if we do this strategy?

No. I'm saying that scum going for Tracker in a 50/50 nk/kill tracker isn't worth it if it fails.

VOTE: T3

Switching vote to T3 for what is either some wild scummy behaviour, or a galaxy brain townie that will lead us astray anyway.

If we reveal who tracker is, scum knows who tracker is. They also know that, whatever the setup, there is one town PR left, and if they manage to snipe them, they can take out the tracker, who they 100% already know. Town is automatically far more likely to lose both power roles, if chance alone is factored in.

If we don't reveal tracker, the likelihood that town randomly loses both PRs by d3 is 2/7 * 1/6 = ~4.8% chance. This is not even taking into account whether we have a doctor, and if we do, that chance is lessened even more.

On the other hand, if we do reveal tracker, the chance that we lose both PRs by d3 is the chance of randomly picking the doctor out of the remaining 6 townies, allowing them to kill the tracker n2, giving 1/6 = ~17% chance. Here, there is no real doctor to lessen the chance further, as doc needs to protect tracker on the off chance scum play a wild card and kill tracker as a fake (risk of this happening is higher than the probability of randomly picking the 1/6 townie that scum will also target).

That is how much we screw ourselves by revealing a role. <4.8% chance of randomly losing both PRs goes up to ~17% chance.

As T3 is a seasoned forum player, I'd expect them to know this, or have at least observed it. Absolutely scum read on T3.

Don't like this vote. IIRC there was something like this brought up in past Newbie games.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm still unsure about the tracker stuff but not necessarily sus of T3 for it

on the other hand I'm not vibing Lickety at all. He's got enough posts to

seem

engaged just via postcount but there's next to no substance in any of them

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

Don't like that I'm voting your friend huh?

[LicketyQuickety]

Oops.

VOTE: Margot

[LicketyQuickety]

Hockey doing good things. I like this.

Let me know when Hockey is universally TR.

[LicketyQuickety]

Lol actually part of my suspicion was that you

weren't

voting her

I didn't vote for anyone before that, lol.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not a Tracker, though, to hopefully get the ball rolling but three people have expressed their disdain for the suggestion, or at least questioned the effectiveness of it, so.

Probably shouldn't say this.

Don't really get this slot. They are logical in parts and then counterintuitive in other parts.

Hmm... Null.

[LicketyQuickety]

I trust the site meta on the Tracker claim stuff.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think you'll just see as the game goes on. I'm sensing a spicy T3 play and scum might not be happy starting Day 2.

Okay you saying this implies that you

want

tracker to claim d1 f1? If thats true, what do u think the benefit actually is in claiming tracker d1 f1?

I can't answer this unfortunately.

Hmmm Hiding info from town now are we? Idt this is AI and i will probs drop this topic. I do have a question tho; What are your thoughts on the game so far

I trust the site meta on the Tracker claim stuff.

Does this mean you agree that tracker should claim d1?

Yes. Mechanics has never been my thing, but I trust the site meta on this.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm hiding info from scum actually.

You literally can't be because otherwise you are a PR and not hiding anything with a comment like this. Else it's just unnecessary WIFOM.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not sold on T3 being Town yet. Then bring in standard stuff from Site meta and that's not really a reason to TR them as it is NAI.

I just don't know why they are voting me since they don't explain it. T3 seems to have completely dropped the site meta talk, I think. He might come back to it or he might not. In any case, we need to decided what to do there. I'm almost inclined to think we don't have a Tracker at this point given talking about it isn't really doing anything but just causing the players to spin in circles.

[LicketyQuickety]

What is everyone's experience playing Mafia?

I've been playing on MS semi-regularly since I joined.

VOTE: Margot

You're forgetting that the D/P remakes are coming out later this year. Also, "honestly" tell.

P.S. Hockey is town on vibes.

What do you have against honesty?

It's nothing major, but it's simply that scum sometimes have a tendency to overuse words that they think will "sound" more towny.

Wait, was the Honestly tell a legitimate read?

[LicketyQuickety]

Reads List:

Town:
Hockey

Lean Town:
Clasko
Astra

Null:
T3
Egix96
alstro

Lean Scum:
Roden
Margot

[LicketyQuickety]

Wait, was the Honestly tell a legitimate read?

I thought it was a joke...

[LicketyQuickety]

T3 is probably town for the exact reason that Hockey outlined -- it's a huge gambit for scum to do right out the gate, so it seems unlikely.

Why is it Townie given it is Site Meta, which I have already talked about. If you go through other newbie games, I am sure it will be brought up early in the game. Fact check me on that.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ -- I get a bad sense from 125. It reads a bit like complaining about getting scumread with a liiitle smidgeon of omgus, especially considering they imply that T3's gambit isn't scummy in 57 before bringing in a little more setup speculation.

It's not a gambit. It's literally site meta. Fact check me on that. I'm not even SRing T3. I don't know why he is SRing me, sure, and I think it's normal to not like that.

[LicketyQuickety]

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

IDK why that would matter tbh. It's Null for me. It's normal for people to debate this, but it does sound like it's been going on kinda long. That's why I think we don't have an applicable setup.

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi, Margot. Can I ask why defensiveness is a Scum tell? I've been accused of being defensive many many times as Town so that is not a good reason to SR me (or anyone for that matter as that tell has been demolished long ago).

Next I would say that while I do remember something about claiming roles it's been a year + since I have played and when I played the Newbie setup had recently been changed IIRC. So while I did remember there was some sort of claiming involved for a particular setup, I was not sure it was Tracker or how the ins and outs of that work (which is why I asked.)

Also, I am assuming you are saying it is Scummy for me to bring this up 5 hours later for some reason. Can I ask why that is? IIRC, the question had not been answered yet.

As far as your read with T3 and Roden are concerned, IDK why you are TRing them for basically going along with site meta? IDK why Roden is doing, but I get the sense that you may be trusting that analysis of the Tracker claim thing is an indication that they are Town and I don't particularly think bringing up site meta is terribly AI.

I don't understand your Hockey read at all. You say you have them as Town Lean, but the reasons for that seem extremely lacking and actually point to the opposite conclusion IMO.

Your reasons for SRing Clasko are not bad, but like, this is what I already explained about reading that player. They seem to be using logic in some parts and being counterintuitive in other parts. This is not inherently Scummy as some people are this way naturally. That is why I Null read them that way - because it may take time to develop a concrete read on a player like that.

I hope you don't consider this post "defensive" because I have tried to be reasonable here.

[LicketyQuickety]

Really need to work out how to use the post tag lol

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[post]x[/post]

[LicketyQuickety]

Since I also took issue with a defensive tone in my reads post, I would say that being overly defensive is suspicious because, up to a point, town should be okay with being suspected — it helps other people develop their reads and everyone solve. Scum OTOH are often much more wary about how they’re perceived and more eager to satisfy town or take down any suspicions as soon and thoroughly as possible.

That might be okay in theory, but it simply doesn't work in practice.

[LicketyQuickety]

Some things...

IDK why T3 is SRing me.. I tried to get them to explain and they didn't.

IIRC, you are saying T3's reaction to getting SR and Roden's response to that are reasons to TR them? IDK I just don't trust it right off the bat. T3 and Roden seem to be doing this sort of secret handshake thing that I don't really get. If your TRs on these players are based on their reaction to things, then it might be worth it. Else, I just see the ongoing discussion about these things needing to happen (eventually) and since no one has claimed Tracker yet, I think it's fair to say there isn't one.

plausible deniability

Don't understand this...

Also, you did not unvote me.

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[uv]x[/uv]

[LicketyQuickety]

LMAO.

[LicketyQuickety]

u rolled scum again didnt u

Again?

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, "honestly" tell.

This is still bugging me. Why are people using bad tells? Defensiveness tell? Honestly tell? Why are people still using these? And Roden also used the honestly tell and I think that is bad because they should really know better.

[LicketyQuickety]

licketys at E-1 lol wtf? I think from Lickety's reactions to being put at e-1 is town+. They arent panicking like scum would nor are they doing damage control(ie giving some last min scumreads to distance from thier maf partner)

Totally misunderstood what e-X rules were. Thought it meant that your vote would only count up to n-1 votes, which meant people couldn't hammer off your vote. I believe the only votes for LQ are Roden, T3 and myself, so I'll correct

VOTE: LQ e-2

In other words, your fine voting for me. Okay, well just say so then.

[LicketyQuickety]

Spoiler: Margot on T3 Progression

Mafia not killing anyone is worse than them killing a VT. It's not logical for them to take that risk.

Are you suggesting that Scum will not used their NK if we do this strategy?

No. I'm saying that scum going for Tracker in a 50/50 nk/kill tracker isn't worth it if it fails.

VOTE: T3

Switching vote to T3 for what is either some wild scummy behaviour, or a galaxy brain townie that will lead us astray anyway.

If we reveal who tracker is, scum knows who tracker is. They also know that, whatever the setup, there is one town PR left, and if they manage to snipe them, they can take out the tracker, who they 100% already know. Town is automatically far more likely to lose both power roles, if chance alone is factored in.

If we don't reveal tracker, the likelihood that town randomly loses both PRs by d3 is 2/7 * 1/6 = ~4.8% chance. This is not even taking into account whether we have a doctor, and if we do, that chance is lessened even more.

On the other hand, if we do reveal tracker, the chance that we lose both PRs by d3 is the chance of randomly picking the doctor out of the remaining 6 townies, allowing them to kill the tracker n2, giving 1/6 = ~17% chance. Here, there is no real doctor to lessen the chance further, as doc needs to protect tracker on the off chance scum play a wild card and kill tracker as a fake (risk of this happening is higher than the probability of randomly picking the 1/6 townie that scum will also target).

That is how much we screw ourselves by revealing a role. <4.8% chance of randomly losing both PRs goes up to ~17% chance.

As T3 is a seasoned forum player, I'd expect them to know this, or have at least observed it. Absolutely scum read on T3.

Mafia not killing anyone is worse than them killing a VT. It's not logical for them to take that risk.

Are you suggesting that Scum will not used their NK if we do this strategy?

No. I'm saying that scum going for Tracker in a 50/50 nk/kill tracker isn't worth it if it fails.

VOTE: T3

Switching vote to T3 for what is either some wild scummy behaviour, or a galaxy brain townie that will lead us astray anyway.

If we reveal who tracker is, scum knows who tracker is. They also know that, whatever the setup, there is one town PR left, and if they manage to snipe them, they can take out the tracker, who they 100% already know. Town is automatically far more likely to lose both power roles, if chance alone is factored in.

If we don't reveal tracker, the likelihood that town randomly loses both PRs by d3 is 2/7 * 1/6 = ~4.8% chance. This is not even taking into account whether we have a doctor, and if we do, that chance is lessened even more.

On the other hand, if we do reveal tracker, the chance that we lose both PRs by d3 is the chance of randomly picking the doctor out of the remaining 6 townies, allowing them to kill the tracker n2, giving 1/6 = ~17% chance. Here, there is no real doctor to lessen the chance further, as doc needs to protect tracker on the off chance scum play a wild card and kill tracker as a fake (risk of this happening is higher than the probability of randomly picking the 1/6 townie that scum will also target).

That is how much we screw ourselves by revealing a role. <4.8% chance of randomly losing both PRs goes up to ~17% chance.

As T3 is a seasoned forum player, I'd expect them to know this, or have at least observed it. Absolutely scum read on T3.

I do know this, but having 2 IC's on Day 2 is

very

good. If just one of the players in the non-PRs is obvious town then we have a PoE of 4 people.

I'm hiding info from scum actually.

You literally can't be because otherwise you are a PR and not hiding anything with a comment like this. Else it's just unnecessary WIFOM.

Agree this is all very odd. That said, so long as the parties involved agree to share what this strategy is after the game ends, I'm happy enough to just let it slide for now

I think Roden and T3 could easily be playing mindgames here. Idk. Could go either way.

Lol actually part of my suspicion was that you

weren't

voting her

Just noticed this. The bloody humanity of it all.

UNVOTE: T3 for now. Still unsure, but I think Roden would have to be in a pair with them for it to make sense at this point, and coming out as a strong pair early d1 would be a wild play

VOTE: lq

I'm back on T3 lol

VOTE: T3

Rolecop can't block the tracker.

Okey dokey, here is where I am at.

I am getting strong town sense from Margot, contrary to what some others have said. It seems like she is really trying to sort -- some internal back and forth is good. I really liked 53 although I didn't check the math. It reads to me like a newbie who is really determined to put in the work.

Hockey is a town lean for me, though I disagree with the argument in 94 that withholding information is

always

anti-town. If someone is trying to bait a trap or is an investigation role who doesn't want to share results until they have a guilty, etc, there are some cases where that's good to hold back. If T3 was trying to do a spicy town play, which is totally T3, then not spelling out the details is beneficial. But the way that he's making his argument reads town, even if I disagree with it. Although I just realized it could be scum trying to get info on what the play is. Still not enough to change my read though.

T3 is probably town for the exact reason that Hockey outlined -- it's a huge gambit for scum to do right out the gate, so it seems unlikely.

Roden is null. 77 struck me as weird as well, but I don't see why scum would town lock T3 after that risky play. Then again, he then went on to walk back that town lock in 91.

Clasko and Egix are null.

The Astra slot is a sliiiiight scum lean because even with so few posts and the swift replace out, it seemed like she might have been jumping on the LQ wagon, and her RVS vote was also a wagon.

LQ -- I get a bad sense from 125. It reads a bit like complaining about getting scumread with a liiitle smidgeon of omgus, especially considering they imply that T3's gambit isn't scummy in 57 before bringing in a little more setup speculation.

The main thing that gives me pause is the very fact that LQ is a wagon already. It could be a quick and easy miselim. I also have no interest in pushing anyone to E-1 right now, so I'll leave my vote on the Astra slot for now to put a little extra fire on whoever joins in.

Roden knows exactly what is going on and he is locktown for that.

Ok, my current reads list. Apologies for text wall

Lean Town:

Currently, I think both T3 and Roden lean town. The more I read through the logs, the more I second guessed my initial scum read. The three minutes between T3's first posts, and the post to out tracker #22 definitely tripped my senses a lot, as it felt like brief time spent hatching a scheme, but that could just as easily come to what Roden is talking about, which I think I may have actually worked out. Roden feels like more of a wildcard than T3 at this point, but nothing that really makes me go one way or the other. Glad that I stuck to it a bit longer than warranted though, because it's definitely given good info.

Hockey: Hard to say, but slight town lean. Points all make sense, but also could point to a long con (see, for instance, lots of early, aimless banter [#7, #8, #13, #14, #16, #18], and later planting the idea that scum lay low early game [#62, #122], which could easily be a very base ploy to take heat off).

Null

Egix: Has laid low most of the game. [post=#p12939319]111[/post] makes me want to give him benefit of the doubt.

Astra is totally null for me atm. I think the fact she had to drop out early means posts will be hard to interpret. Nothing to go on, and I'll treat as a fresh slate when slot is refilled.

Lean scum

Clasko: Had very minimal engagement early on. Dropped in at #50 through #52 to post 3 nothing comments, with a followup meh reflection on RQS at 54. Seemed pretty cool with T3’s tracker idea at #55, but then seemed open to a d1 elimination for T3 in #118. Has a scum read on Hockey, which is interesting #115. Reasoning seems pretty flaky, when there are much better reasons to scum read him imo. Highest conf is on LQ, purely for the ordering of his slots, which blows my mind.

LQ: Way more interesting than Hockey's immediate question at T3 for the tracker play [post=#p12936791]#23[/post] which wasn't even really a callout, just a one word question that was left for several posts and almost five hours, was LQ resurrecting by restating the question [post=#p12937132]#32[/post]. Takes the heat off of you by shifting it onto someone who can be named as the instigator. Extra odd given that LQ later said that they knew tracker reveal was site meta, leading one to think that they would know exactly why T3 wanted to reveal tracker (see #80, #132). On top of that, they have been incredibly defensive throughout d1 (wanted Roden to go through past game logs to see their history of RQS v RVS in #38 and #39, defensive at Astra's veeeery loose scum read #68, defensive about T3 and Roden explanations as to why they voted #125). Attack on Roden for not sharing info, looks extra weird in this context (see #87), as I think it makes perfect sense as to why Roden wouldn't want to share info.

Alstro had minimal engagement early on. Only non-obvious read in #130 is a strong town read on me, and that could very easily be getting onside a slot who is making hard claims early in the game. Also, reading everyone as null or above other than two players already pointed out as behaving in an obviously odd way (Astra and LQ) feels like a safe play, especially when Astra is being subbed out and therefore justifying an opinion change later on. I have also been reading into the read lists a bit too much probably, but they line up for Alstro and LQ to be scum team (Alstro mentions a very loose scum read on LQ that's easy to walk back, but useful to make them seem like town if LQ gets smoked).

VOTE: LQ

I could just be stupid here, but it sounds like Margot doesn't acknowledge T3 as Town (and me as Scum) until this RL.

I'm trying to figure out how/where the turn happened in Margot's thought process and I can't see it. Seem like they just went from SRing T3, to TRing T3 to SRing me. I don't see an indication where Margot starts to buy T3's reasoning until they solidify their TR on Roden. I'm not wild about Margot's lack of progression here. If someone can point me to where Margot started to TR T3 before this post let me know.

[LicketyQuickety]

Currently, I think both T3 and Roden lean town. The more I read through the logs, the more I second guessed my initial scum read.

This is another thing I don't get. Were you initially saying you thought T3 and Roden were SvS? If that's the case and you went from SvS reading them to TvT reading them, then I'm not quite sure how this figure that these two players (being Town) means I am Scum. I get that these two players are both SRing me, but I'm not sure how you get from, "T3 and Roden are Town," to saying, "Therefore, LQ is Scum."

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, "honestly" tell.

This is still bugging me. Why are people using bad tells? Defensiveness tell? Honestly tell? Why are people still using these? And Roden also used the honestly tell and I think that is bad because they should really know better.

You are mistakenly thinking that I was being completely serious there when it was only more like 50%.

Okay, well that was really unclear.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Margot, Do you read every interaction someone has with someone else as a Town or Scum read toward that slot?

[LicketyQuickety]

Actually, I am at E-1 at this point...

Margot, are you looking for a quick lynch or what?

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't like that T3 is shading me with no reasoning. Very sketchy.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm tempted to vote T3 but I don't buy that Margot didn't know I was at E-1. Especially when they already said they knew I was at E-1 and then disguised it like they thought I was at E-2. I mean, I can see it as a derp, but I don't get how/why they already assumed I was at E-1 and then readjusted to thinking I was E-2. IDK why they thought that Astra's vote no longer counted. I'm NOT assuming that Margot was necessarily aiming for a quick lynch (after thinking about it) but I DO think they simply didn't want to unvote me. They seemed to have made like 2? 3? excuses on why they didn't want to unvote me before they did. It just feels like an OMGUS to me.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm tempted to vote T3 but I don't buy that Margot didn't know I was at E-1. Especially when they already said they knew I was at E-1 and then disguised it like they thought I was at E-2. I mean, I can see it as a derp, but I don't get how/why they already assumed I was at E-1 and then readjusted to thinking I was E-2. IDK why they thought that Astra's vote no longer counted. I'm NOT assuming that Margot was necessarily aiming for a quick lynch (after thinking about it) but I DO think they simply didn't want to unvote me. They seemed to have made like 2? 3? excuses on why they didn't want to unvote me before they did. It just feels like an OMGUS to me.

I want to know what Hockey thinks of this.

[LicketyQuickety]

Since I also took issue with a defensive tone in my reads post, I would say that being overly defensive is suspicious because, up to a point, town should be okay with being suspected — it helps other people develop their reads and everyone solve. Scum OTOH are often much more wary about how they’re perceived and more eager to satisfy town or take down any suspicions as soon and thoroughly as possible.

That might be okay in theory, but it simply doesn't work in practice.

Can you explain more what you mean by this?

Nothing I haven't said before. I've been accused of being "defensive" as Town a lot. At first it got me lynched a good amount, but then people realized that was my meta, so it stopped being a tell (at least for me).

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: T3

For being so low energy. Can't talk about this read much, but I do think T3 doesn't have much vigor this game. He also isn't explaining himself very well. Both things point to him being red.

But since Hockey has played with T3 before I want them to answer if T3 was this low energy in the game they played together. Will check for myself.

[LicketyQuickety]

Some tasty morsels from that other game:

Yep.

Cn the scum just claim? I'm bored.

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I didn't see it

maybe because of the 60 line walls

T3 why do u TR cows

Honestly just vibes and an earlier towny post.

T3 bored and no reasons for his reads in that game. Meanwhile, in other spots he asks people for their reasons on why he is Scum.

I haven't seen T3 do anything wild yet (other than trusting Roden) and I can't TR him just on that. Here he seems just as bored (or low energy) as that game and he also doesn't really have any reasons for his reads.

(Didn't someone ask T3 for a RL and he didn't provide one?)

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm tempted to vote T3 but I don't buy that Margot didn't know I was at E-1. Especially when they already said they knew I was at E-1 and then disguised it like they thought I was at E-2. I mean, I can see it as a derp, but I don't get how/why they already assumed I was at E-1 and then readjusted to thinking I was E-2. IDK why they thought that Astra's vote no longer counted. I'm NOT assuming that Margot was necessarily aiming for a quick lynch (after thinking about it) but I DO think they simply didn't want to unvote me. They seemed to have made like 2? 3? excuses on why they didn't want to unvote me before they did. It just feels like an OMGUS to me.

Dont really understand this post as a whole but I think Margot genuinely thought you were at e-2. As for the excuses part or smth, can u link those? The omgus part /may/ be true but I think that comes from newb town, could be wrong? Tldr; Yes they could be scum but dt its for the interaction with u

I'm talking about this (one of which indicates they knew their vote on me was E-1 [the second one]).

Spoiler:

VOTE: LQ

UNVOTE:

VOTE: LQ e-1

licketys at E-1 lol wtf? I think from Lickety's reactions to being put at e-1 is town+. They arent panicking like scum would nor are they doing damage control(ie giving some last min scumreads to distance from thier maf partner)

Totally misunderstood what e-X rules were. Thought it meant that your vote would only count up to n-1 votes, which meant people couldn't hammer off your vote. I believe the only votes for LQ are Roden, T3 and myself, so I'll correct

VOTE: LQ e-2

Actually, I am at E-1 at this point...

Margot, are you looking for a quick lynch or what?

I thought Astra's vote was scrubbed when they dropped out. If that's note the case, then

UNVOTE:

I try and read every interaction from both perspectives.

Wrt T3 scum read, I expressed some uncertainty as early as 81. Revoted T3 105 but that was equal parts feeling like I wanted to push it a bit more due to uncertainty and part wanting to keep the conversation going to get some reads.

VOTE: T3

For being so low energy. Can't talk about this read much, but I do think T3 doesn't have much vigor this game. He also isn't explaining himself very well. Both things point to him being red.

But since Hockey has played with T3 before I want them to answer if T3 was this low energy in the game they played together. Will check for myself.

I still have no clue how to read t3 lol. The reason why im willing to TR t3 is that he has a read that /doesn't/ involve meta which I think is town for him?

I can't talk about why this is wrong, but it is.

[LicketyQuickety]

So the real question is what Margot thought they were doing (in their second vote on me). There was something else I didn't like... The fact that they very well know they can switch their vote to someone else (demonstrated by their Unvote of T3). So it's just really really weird.

[LicketyQuickety]

So the real question is what Margot thought they were doing (in their second vote on me). There was something else I didn't like... The fact that they very well know they can switch their vote to someone else (demonstrated by their Unvote of T3). So it's just really really weird.

Uhhh i dont get this this? Why would they switch their vote if they Sr you slightly

The site meta (which you should know by now) is that when someone gets to E-1, then either someone claims "intent to hammer" and then the person claims, OR if it is too early in the day or something, then you would unvote them so a quick Elim doesn't happen.

What doesn't makes sense is either Margot knew I was at E-1 when they voted me and wanted to unvote me, or they thought that they had to announce I was E-1 with their vote, which still means they knew they were putting me at E-1 with their vote. It gets a little confusing since Margot also voted me as an E-2 vote, which doesn't make any sense to me at all. I mean, I can see a world where Margot thought they had to announce me at E-1, but what I DON'T get is why they thought they had to announce I was at E-2. That doesn't make a lick of sense given what I said above.

[LicketyQuickety]

So the real question is what Margot thought they were doing (in their second vote on me). There was something else I didn't like... The fact that they very well know they can switch their vote to someone else (demonstrated by their Unvote of T3). So it's just really really weird.

Uhhh i dont get this this? Why would they switch their vote if they Sr you slightly

The site meta (which you should know by now) is that when someone gets to E-1, then either someone claims "intent to hammer" and then the person claims, OR if it is too early in the day or something, then you would unvote them so a quick Elim doesn't happen.

What doesn't makes sense is either Margot knew I was at E-1 when they voted me and wanted to unvote me, or they thought that they had to announce I was E-1 with their vote, which still means they knew they were putting me at E-1 with their vote. It gets a little confusing since Margot also voted me as an E-2 vote, which doesn't make any sense to me at all. I mean, I can see a world where Margot thought they had to announce me at E-1, but what I DON'T get is why they thought they had to announce I was at E-2. That doesn't make a lick of sense given what I said above.

Ok, I got it. Yea its weird but its a super weird reason to SR someone for. Margot unvoted when she realized it was at e-1 which is NAI(but def not smth scum). About the whole thing announcing someone at E-2, I dont think scum even wants to do that so I think i /think/ it comes from a scum mindset, but again not smth u can TR someone for. So, I think margot sits at null rn. Im a bit worried about you tunneling Margot here, what are your thoughts on other players rn

I'm waiting for T3 to do something *spectacular* and I'm just not seeing it yet. Bringing up site meta and TRing Roden is like ehhh, maybe, but at the same time something feels off since they are not explaining what the heck that is and is just content to say, "Roden is Town." IDK wth that even is... And T3 isn't really giving any reasons for their reads and that's NOT what I know of them.

[LicketyQuickety]

T3 rarely does something spectacular, but I do agree they'd be a bit more gamesolvey as town

Spectacular was only halfway serious. I meant that he hasn't done something that makes him stick out yet.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Clasko

Yeah, I feel like this is money. I think that was an actual slip tbh.

[LicketyQuickety]

@StrangeMatter

Welcome.

Ok fine I'll just claim so we can get T3/Roden to play the game!! I am tracker, im gonna go for the night so i will probs re read game tmr afternoon or smh after work

If you aren't countering his claim, then Hockey is conftown.
(sorry for the SL, Hockey)

I…don’t actually think he actually is claiming Tracker, and just joking about this. Are you also just joking about them being confirmed Town?

Speaking of which, I saw in your posts you said you were following Lickity’s vote, and to me that’s just…not something I see from Town players. Most Town has votes on the same person if information that points towards scum, not outright saying they’ll just follow votes.

So can you give me a good reason why you’re voting the same person as Lickity?

First part is kinda weird, but in a Townie kind of way. I don't think Scum usually would doubt a claim like this due to TMI. So on that part I kinda think this is a Townie post.

The question asked is a good one. I generally don't like people sheeping me anyways because it's too much pressure. Ofc Clasko can't know this, but still rubs me the wrong way with the way it went down.

[LicketyQuickety]

bruh

Why do u TR people that hold info, still dont get it

Well, hiding information like that can be useful to not give information that may benefit scum, but sometimes it’s absolutely necessary to explain otherwise you leave everyone that’s Town with less information. Now about Roden not giving information to scum, was just not needed since Roden was obviously already doing that. Idk that to me can seem like they’re trying to get towncred as scum. I can’t really think of that being something Town says unless for some reason they care about correcting or self conscious about how town thinks about them.

Kinda wondering what you are going to do with your vote (since you haven't moved it/unvoted yet). Usually standard procedure is to unvote when you sub in unless you like the vote in which case you should say why.

[LicketyQuickety]

Clasko said 'a green flip'
Clasko is scum knowing I will flip green

Wait, did they really? I will have to go back and check this, but it feels wrong for some reason.

[LicketyQuickety]

The wagon on LQ built up a little too fast. I think it's weird that he's focused on me saying "honestly" once, and he's clearly panicking and scrambling to avoid getting elim'd.

But this is feeling more like a townie flail than a scum flail.

Like, less like his back is against the wall and more like he got ganged up on and he doesn't think it's fair. Plus, there's basically been zero resistance to this wagon. If LQ is scum, then his scum buddy would have to be bussing him extremely early into the game.

First scum is almost guaranteed to be between LQ and Margot btw. It's pinging me as TvS pretty hard. Pretty sure we can turbo elim both if the first one flips green.

@Roden:

Given you thought LQ's flail was townie, would you yeet Margot first over LQ?

Uhh... I'll join in with LQ here for the time being even though a green flip doesn't say much at this moment in time:

VOTE: T3

I'm quoting both of these here because the first is the only place "green" shows up in Clasko's ISO and it isn't even said by Clasko. And then they decided to sheep me (which I still don't like).

In any case, this is the sort of thing I was waiting for from T3 Re: FPS.

So I'd Lean Town on T3 at this point, which makes Clasko's vote look worse actually.

[LicketyQuickety]

Uhh... I'll join in with LQ here for the time being even though a green flip doesn't say much at this moment in time:

VOTE: T3

Okay, I goofed. In Clasko's ISO, the FIRST place green shows up is in Roden's nested quote, but then the last post is where Clasko says it's a green check. This actually erases the TL on T3 because it WASN'T that T3 was doing FPS. So I have T3 as a Null currently. Sometimes I get stuff wrong because I am ADHD so bad, so be patient with me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Hockey, are you an alt? You mention things like my scum range but I don't think I've ever played with you before?

Why did you think Hockey was an alt?

[LicketyQuickety]

Still waiting on Clasko...

[LicketyQuickety]

Lickety is still town, what does FPS mean tho

Fancy Play Syndrom. It's just what we have been talking about with T3 so far. That they do weird plays like gambits and stuff. I know he does this as Town and he's so far been playing pretty straight forward and IDK why.

[LicketyQuickety]

Clasko not addressing the "green flip" comment is a bad look.

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, I know you mentioned ADHD, but I'm finding it hard to understand how you could post 250 when you hadn't yet checked the facts.

I guess I was expecting more of a kind of elaboration and an explanation for why they said "green flip." IDK maybe I saw it and it didn't register in my brain because I didn't see what I was looking for. "Doesn't tell us much" is literally sweeping the entire issue under the rug. Like, the whole reason people think it IS a slip is for that specific comment. So for them to just say, "It doesn't mean much" like why are we supposed to just buy that explanation? It's literally a non-explanation. I was looking for an explanation and didn't see one. :shug:

[LicketyQuickety]

Actually, I noted something from one of Roden’s scum games, specifically involving past experiences with their scum game with me and Roden’s scum game with them, something really sticks out. So one thing I noticed is that Roden and T3 were townreading each other early, which he in my scum game actually said he would TR my slot when we were both scum. To me there’s also the fact that from what I parsed as pushing pressure off their teammate as well.

This is just meta, so take it with a grain of salt, but I think it should be pointed out.

Forgot to mention but this is from Gelato 2, Newbie 2066 and Sanwich Debate in 2071 as reference.

Does this happen often in Roden's Scum games? I'd kinda like to see a pattern.

[LicketyQuickety]

It’s not really a pattern from just one person if you ask me. It’s a pattern between two users from my experience and reading into a scum game where both T3 and Roden were scum.

Why do you think they would play it the exact same way again?

[LicketyQuickety]

I agree that the “I feel meh about this flip but I’m gonna vote it anyway” is worse than the green comment.

Why would it be worse? Why wouldn't it be the same?

[LicketyQuickety]

I keep feeling like alstro is not really doing much. I feel like they are just posting to post - like they know they have to post something so they do, but none of it is really convincing because of so much hedging language (which is usually a Scum tell).

[LicketyQuickety]

I guess I was expecting more of a kind of elaboration and an explanation for why they said "green flip." IDK maybe I saw it and it didn't register in my brain because I didn't see what I was looking for. "Doesn't tell us much" is literally sweeping the entire issue under the rug. Like, the whole reason people think it IS a slip is for that specific comment. So for them to just say, "It doesn't mean much" like why are we supposed to just buy that explanation? It's literally a non-explanation. I was looking for an explanation and didn't see one. :shug:

I don't have a defense to give you regarding the green flip comment, unfortunately. Margot's right in that it's just unfortunate phrasing and I didn't give it much thought, but in the context of this game, it's at least another angle of conversation.

Your #250 looks fairly decisive in that you're gonna keep your vote on me until EoD, is that the case for you rn? Am I likely to flip red in your eyes? Or is it more like you can't get away from the 'slip' in your mind when considering whether I'm scummy/towny?

After thinking about it a bit more, I don't think it being a slip is 100%, but I would probably put it at about 65% that it was actually a slip. I have some reservations about you being Scum like that you are still being somewhat counterintuitive with what you are saying, so you haven't actually broke that narrative yet. In that way, I can see the slip comment just coming from that narrative. Still, I'm more sure it is a slip than it isn't at this point. I mean, if you don't want to get lynched here, you have to make someone else look more Scummy than yourself. So I would suggest pushing someone else if you're Town here rather than just defending yourself.

[LicketyQuickety]

Locktown: Hockey, Strange, Roden
Town: LQ
POE: Everyone else

Agree with this partly.

Strange seems to be acting townie, and I had a slight suspicion that Astra would not have pulled out if she had rolled Scum (which is very metagamey, which is why I didn't bring it up earlier).

Roden is still a strong Town lean for me, but I don't think I'd lock town yet.

I don't know that LQ has done much to assuage my earlier suspicions. I feel like people backed down from the scum read mainly on the basis of it being a bit of a pile on, and the fact that once I spelled out what I saw as the difference between scum defensiveness and townie defensiveness it changed.

The team I can most easily imagine in my head (which is admittedly pretty wonky at present) still remains Alstro and LQ, but that's a long shot, and doesn't really mean much day 1. Plus, Alstro has been acting far more Townie than previously.

Clasko's an interesting one, though I don't see the slip as an actual slip. Just seems like unfortunate phrasing.

Still think clearest bet for me right now remains LQ.

If I have your reasoning right for why I am Scum it is because my defensiveness changed after you said I was being defensive? And that just because the wagon developed doesn't mean I am Town? I can still be reasonable sometimes just like I can be defensive sometimes. When I explained to alstro that defensiveness isn't a Scum tell for me, the reached the conclusion that it is person dependent whereas you still think me being defensive is a Scum tell. I'm just trying to tell you here that being defensive isn't AI for me. Make of that what you will but it's true.

[LicketyQuickety]

What I see from Alstro is mostly IIoA, which can be pretty good at catching Scum. If Alstro's posts were longer, then I would definitely think they were doing this tell. But they mostly make short, good sounding posts without a conclusion.

[LicketyQuickety]

In other news, I'm just not in the right headspace to play Mafia rn, but I have nothing better to do.

[LicketyQuickety]

Well, LQ, you basically got me pegged. I've been posting through some personal stuff from my phone over the weekend because I'm going to be doing a more "LA" V/LA later this week. The fewer conclusions are mostly because I've been posting reactions but not clicking back to earlier in the thread to think about it in conjunction with what's happened. But for at least the next few days I am here and back with a computer so let's see what I can do

Even if that is true, it doesn't mean you are Town. I just got done with a game that went to F3 and the last Scum was giving IRL reasons all game why they weren't doing much, which was true, but they were still Scum. So it doesn't clear you.

[LicketyQuickety]

I keep feeling like alstro is not really doing much. I feel like they are just posting to post - like they know they have to post something so they do, but none of it is really convincing because of so much hedging language (which is usually a Scum tell).

Agree but I think thier content has been /towny/ enough.

My reads are pretty similar to 231 except maybe havign strange as a tl, and margot to null

What are you seeing about Strange that is Townie? Hard for me to get a read there. Why did Margot move to Null?

[LicketyQuickety]

It’s not really a pattern from just one person if you ask me. It’s a pattern between two users from my experience and reading into a scum game where both T3 and Roden were scum.

Why do you think they would play it the exact same way again?

Just because you lose as scum doesn’t mean you can’t do that kind of stuff again at all, and thinking like that could end up with scum completely getting away with doing said risky play because it IS the play Town wouldn’t expect.

I just think that adds a lot of unnecessary WIFOM into the game. No reason to think the team is exactly T3 and Roden yet.

[LicketyQuickety]

Even if this flips green it means we still have some sort of information, so either way I think this vote is fine.

That's really really bad. Don't lynch for info unless you are doing some sort of calculations for it (which I will be calculating things during NP).

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: alstromerial

Another naked vote, bro.

[LicketyQuickety]

Even if this flips green it means we still have some sort of information, so either way I think this vote is fine.

That's really really bad. Don't lynch for info unless you are doing some sort of calculations for it (which I will be calculating things during NP).

I already did think over this, and I believe that this is just a better person to eliminate just from how they have been doing as having scum-like intent to me.

How much of your read on Roden is based on the Scum team being exactly T3/Roden? I mean. I could consider that if Roden/T3 flip Scum, but doing pre-flip is generally a bad idea.

[LicketyQuickety]

alstro is PoE.

What happened to Clasko?

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Strange

For being uh... strange.

[LicketyQuickety]

We now have two people who have said they would be willing to flip a green slot. Maybe T3 is right and Newbies do actually burn the soul.

[LicketyQuickety]

alstro is PoE.

What happened to Clasko?

He posted.

Wut? Scum post too... Like wth, man. What's with all this super weak reasoning?

[LicketyQuickety]

Right now its 10% reason for pushing for a reveal for the actual meta, 20% because both T3 and Roden TR and I want to flip one of them to analyze the other, and 70% because Roden has to me felt like he is defensive and cares about how town perceives him.

Fair enough. But I'd actually like you to case Roden if you could.

[LicketyQuickety]

alstro is PoE.

What happened to Clasko?

He posted.

Wut? Scum post too... Like wth, man. What's with all this super weak reasoning?

Yes but
good vibes posts

Are you every going to explain anything this game?

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Strange

For being uh... strange.

This feels pretty close to a naked vote considering you just mentioned the term, and that you hopped off Clasko right after asking T3 "what about Clasko?" Can you say more about this vote?

Yes, I realize that. My reasoning is elsewhere. Notably 328, 342, and 345 all of which I consider very strange from uh... Strange.

[LicketyQuickety]

Its t3, he never explains anything

I would disagree with that.

[LicketyQuickety]

Any games not in new york/coney island I just never have enough motivation.

Then why do you play those games?

[LicketyQuickety]

On another note, this sort of weird posting type of thing is more what I expect of T3. IDK if I'm moving them to TL yet or not, but I will see if it continues. And after saying it out in the open, it probably diminishes the effect. Sorta just want T3 to actually talk about his reasons at this point. T3 is getting dry minus the last few posts and it's not what I expect of his Town game.

P-Edit: And what exactly were you trying to do T3?

[LicketyQuickety]

On another note, this sort of weird posting type of thing is more what I expect of T3. IDK if I'm moving them to TL yet or not, but I will see if it continues. And after saying it out in the open, it probably diminishes the effect. Sorta just want T3 to actually talk about his reasons at this point. T3 is getting dry minus the last few posts and it's not what I expect of his Town game.

P-Edit: And what exactly were you trying to do T3?

I think I worded that badly. Roden knew where I got the idea for the massclaim from.

Which was from where?

[LicketyQuickety]

Ah who am I kidding, I've been putting up a charade and pushing Roden with a not so great argument to get a discussion going, and see who would be adamantly against a possible wagon on Roden. In particular I was looking for T3's reaction since he well, TR Roden so I wanted to see how he'd have reacted to it. And that part is frustrating to me because he completely ignored it and did his own thing instead, which didn't help at all. Not to mention that there are three votes on me, and it doesn't seem like anyone questions that.

And if you wanted my reasoning for voting Roden, I've already outlined it but in #79 Roden talks about not sharing information, then continuously talks about hiding info in #83, and #91. The main idea was that it was just repetition that would've been said it is odd to just keep repeating this as Town.

I wouldn't blame anyone if they vote me because of this, but I wanted to make this clear, I feel like Town isn't making anything and is just reacting, and that bothers me because the game probably won't progress if this just keeps up.

Give me a Reads List.

[LicketyQuickety]

Strange is sorta giving off "defeated Town" vibes.

IDK, maybe their push on Roden is good? Will have to ISO there.

[LicketyQuickety]

If you're asking about the RQS scum tell sample size, you've been on this site long enough to know that one.

If it's the "tbh" tell I'm not sure how you expect me to source that unless you want me to comb through every newbie game and CTRL+F scum ISO's for "tbh" and "honestly". Which uh, I'm not gonna do. But I'm clearly not the only one who's heard of that tell anyway.

Going back to this, this is pretty Scummy?

Feels sorta like fake.

[LicketyQuickety]

I wouldn't hard accuse anyone for it, the tbh tell was me commenting on Egix bringing it up and backing it up with my own belief in it. It's nothing I'd bother trying to use on Day 1 though, I think it's reasonable that people use it naturally in their speech patterns. It's just when you have people using it sparingly or never in their confirmed town games and then blatantly overusing it in games they're suspicious in, then I think it has merit.

My opinion on RQS doesn't seem popular, but I've been burned a few times by people who try to look helpful/busy by engaging in RQS but then turn out to be scum. It's easy town cred for too little effort IMO.

Then doubts the "tbh" tell and doubles down on the RQS? I said in 154 that defensiveness and honesty tells were bad, but to keep on the RQS thing was really bad.

T3 how sure are you that Roden is Town here? I expect a straight up answer here.

[LicketyQuickety]

Newer scum won't assume town is lying like strange did.

which means what?

[LicketyQuickety]

What is your PoE at this point T3?

[LicketyQuickety]

If you're asking about the RQS scum tell sample size, you've been on this site long enough to know that one.

If it's the "tbh" tell I'm not sure how you expect me to source that unless you want me to comb through every newbie game and CTRL+F scum ISO's for "tbh" and "honestly". Which uh, I'm not gonna do. But I'm clearly not the only one who's heard of that tell anyway.

Going back to this, this is pretty Scummy?

Feels sorta like fake.

???

What exactly sounds scummy or fake about this?

It feels fake because I don't think you honestly believe the stuff you are saying about RQS. Like, why is that Scummy? Look through my games, I lead off with RQS semi-regularely.

Like this:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11817906

I wouldn't hard accuse anyone for it, the tbh tell was me commenting on Egix bringing it up and backing it up with my own belief in it. It's nothing I'd bother trying to use on Day 1 though, I think it's reasonable that people use it naturally in their speech patterns. It's just when you have people using it sparingly or never in their confirmed town games and then blatantly overusing it in games they're suspicious in, then I think it has merit.

My opinion on RQS doesn't seem popular, but I've been burned a few times by people who try to look helpful/busy by engaging in RQS but then turn out to be scum. It's easy town cred for too little effort IMO.

Then doubts the "tbh" tell and doubles down on the RQS? I said in 154 that defensiveness and honesty tells were bad, but to keep on the RQS thing was really bad.

T3 how sure are you that Roden is Town here? I expect a straight up answer here.

How am I doubting the tbh tell here? I literally advoated for it lmao, you're just making shit up here. Commenting on RQS isn't "bad", let alone scummy. You and Strange both keep looking for reasons to call me scummy but both of your attempts have been really weak and desperate.

Both you and Egix96 used the "honesty" tell. Egix96 said they were only halfway serious about it. You are doubling down on it being Scummy, when it was discussed at length that it's really only Scummy if someone overuses it as Scum compared to Town. I don't think you actually believe these tells. They might be semi-okay to get the game started, but they are really bad once we have 10+ pages. And you didn't stick to those tells. You unvoted me and never voted Margot for the honesty tell. It just seems like you don't actually believe it.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Roden

[LicketyQuickety]

If you're asking about the RQS scum tell sample size, you've been on this site long enough to know that one.

If it's the "tbh" tell I'm not sure how you expect me to source that unless you want me to comb through every newbie game and CTRL+F scum ISO's for "tbh" and "honestly". Which uh, I'm not gonna do. But I'm clearly not the only one who's heard of that tell anyway.

Going back to this, this is pretty Scummy?

Feels sorta like fake.

???

What exactly sounds scummy or fake about this?

It feels fake because I don't think you honestly believe the stuff you are saying about RQS. Like, why is that Scummy? Look through my games, I lead off with RQS semi-regularely.

Like this:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11817906

I don't care if you always lead off with RQS? It's a notable scum tell and that doesn't change things just because you've done it in the past.

I wouldn't hard accuse anyone for it, the tbh tell was me commenting on Egix bringing it up and backing it up with my own belief in it. It's nothing I'd bother trying to use on Day 1 though, I think it's reasonable that people use it naturally in their speech patterns. It's just when you have people using it sparingly or never in their confirmed town games and then blatantly overusing it in games they're suspicious in, then I think it has merit.

My opinion on RQS doesn't seem popular, but I've been burned a few times by people who try to look helpful/busy by engaging in RQS but then turn out to be scum. It's easy town cred for too little effort IMO.

Then doubts the "tbh" tell and doubles down on the RQS? I said in 154 that defensiveness and honesty tells were bad, but to keep on the RQS thing was really bad.

T3 how sure are you that Roden is Town here? I expect a straight up answer here.

How am I doubting the tbh tell here? I literally advoated for it lmao, you're just making shit up here. Commenting on RQS isn't "bad", let alone scummy. You and Strange both keep looking for reasons to call me scummy but both of your attempts have been really weak and desperate.

Both you and Egix96 used the "honesty" tell. Egix96 said they were only halfway serious about it. You are doubling down on it being Scummy, when it was discussed at length that it's really only Scummy if someone overuses it as Scum compared to Town. I don't think you actually believe these tells. They might be semi-okay to get the game started, but they are really bad once we have 10+ pages. And you didn't stick to those tells. You unvoted me and never voted Margot for the honesty tell. It just seems like you don't actually believe it.

This is the first I've actually heard someone say "I don't think you believe this" lmao, how are you supposed to know what I actually believe? This isn't a real thought process.

Why would I vote Margot when she gave a legitimate reason? If it's a speech quirk and she didn't even say it much I have no reason to turbo elim her over that. It just sounds like you're projecting at this point because you keep saying my posts feel fake, but this legitimately cannot be a real thought process because it makes no logical sense.

Are they real tells or not? If not, and there are example to the contrary, then why would they be considered Tells at all?

[LicketyQuickety]

On a more serious note, I want to ask SM (but I also want everyone to chime in) if it's better to extinguish the seeds of doubt I had accidentally sewn in my #216 by making me the D1 elim today.
Given I'm even suggesting this, you can probably guess my alignment and role, but I think my elim has some advantages:

- The 'slip' is resolved, which may mar D2 discussion if unchecked.
- We don't accidentally 'out' the other PR by bringing them to e-1 and force them to claim, which feels especially important given Hockey has already outed

If I'm going against wincon with this suggestion, then I sincerely apologise and will accept all responsibility but I think it's more beneficial for the game to keep the other, less disposable PR, hidden as opposed to my slot that is just a big, fat question mark, and I wouldn't be suggesting this if not for the 'slip' and Hockey didn't out.

Let me know what you all think.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not wild about E96 but I think they look better than alstro.

If it comes to it, I'll join on alstro, but I'd prefer Roden, But it doesn't look like anyone else wants Roden dead? T3 TRs them, does anyone besides me SR Roden?

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not wild about E96 but I think they look better than alstro.

If it comes to it, I'll join on alstro, but I'd prefer Roden, But it doesn't look like anyone else wants Roden dead? T3 TRs them, does anyone besides me SR Roden?

Not going to lie, this is a vote just because, and especially when you scumread Roden is just odd.

Speaking of Roden, do you have any opinions on alstromerical and egix?

I'm still voting Roden IIRC.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: alstro

We need some Town cohesion.

[LicketyQuickety]

I just ISO'd E96. I think they have good thought for the most part.

[LicketyQuickety]

Egix has like vaguely town sounding posts.

Actually, that's not a bad way to put it.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: MargotRosa

I think this helps us solve other slots more easily, while still having ~roughly the same chance to flip scum.

Explain?

[LicketyQuickety]

Gam. Is. Dead.

[LicketyQuickety]

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

IDK why that would matter tbh.

It's Null for me. It's normal for people to debate this, but it does sound like it's been going on kinda long. That's why I think we don't have an applicable setup.

At the bolded, how is that not relevant? One side says it's site meta and the other says they've never seen it and you don't know why that would matter?

Seriously?

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Clasko

Yeah, I feel like this is money. I think that was an actual slip tbh.

Explain why.

At the time I was more sure of it being a slip. Now I'm not as confident in it.

[LicketyQuickety]

On another note, this sort of weird posting type of thing is more what I expect of T3. IDK if I'm moving them to TL yet or not, but I will see if it continues.

This isn't what a townie who actually plans on watching this says.

LOL. What do you think I am going to do exactly? You think I can't say that and watch what T3 does? Why would that be?

[LicketyQuickety]

On another note, this sort of weird posting type of thing is more what I expect of T3. IDK if I'm moving them to TL yet or not, but I will see if it continues.

This isn't what a townie who actually plans on watching this says.

I do weirdpost though.
Unless it's a theme game
Then I giga tryhard, get 200 posts in a day, am run up to e1, then nightkilled after the wagon disappates.

the story of my life, in mafiascum~

Okay I put together what you were saying here finally. Him commenting on your weird posting isn't what i mean, exactly. He's suggesting it could potentially lead to him town reading you if you continue doing it. And he said it. Where you could see it. That makes no sense from a town perspective.

Then keep reading because this was cleared up since it wasn't actually something wild from T3. I said as much.

[LicketyQuickety]

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

IDK why that would matter tbh.

It's Null for me. It's normal for people to debate this, but it does sound like it's been going on kinda long. That's why I think we don't have an applicable setup.

At the bolded, how is that not relevant? One side says it's site meta and the other says they've never seen it and you don't know why that would matter?

Seriously?

Because it is usually brought up in newbie games I would assume. If that's correct, then when it is brought up is more or less moot.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ythan's case on me is extremely weak. If they were not confirmed Town I would totally be voting there.

[LicketyQuickety]

I would say that it's Margot who has been being weird whereas LQ has made opportunistic moves, but now that I've said that... well, that only makes me less right and you more right.

I've just pushed things I think look Scummy. Not sure how you think I've been opportunistic.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Clasko

Yeah, I feel like this is money. I think that was an actual slip tbh.

Explain why.

At the time I was more sure of it being a slip. Now I'm not as confident in it.

EXPLAIN WHY you thought it was a slip that was the question.

Because it assumes they know that T3 is flipping green. Like, pretty obvious.

[LicketyQuickety]

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

IDK why that would matter tbh.

It's Null for me. It's normal for people to debate this, but it does sound like it's been going on kinda long. That's why I think we don't have an applicable setup.

At the bolded, how is that not relevant? One side says it's site meta and the other says they've never seen it and you don't know why that would matter?

Seriously?

Lol fantastic way to start your responses

It's literally not an issue at all. If you would have just thought I had a different perspective, that would be one thing, but you think it's actually Scummy which is weird.

[LicketyQuickety]

On another note, this sort of weird posting type of thing is more what I expect of T3. IDK if I'm moving them to TL yet or not, but I will see if it continues.

This isn't what a townie who actually plans on watching this says.

I do weirdpost though.
Unless it's a theme game
Then I giga tryhard, get 200 posts in a day, am run up to e1, then nightkilled after the wagon disappates.

the story of my life, in mafiascum~

Okay I put together what you were saying here finally. Him commenting on your weird posting isn't what i mean, exactly. He's suggesting it could potentially lead to him town reading you if you continue doing it. And he said it. Where you could see it. That makes no sense from a town perspective.

Then keep reading because this was cleared up since it wasn't actually something wild from T3. I said as much.

I'll tell you when my questions are cleared up lol. For the record you're making it worse so far.

No, you're just in a confbias.

[LicketyQuickety]

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

IDK why that would matter tbh.

It's Null for me. It's normal for people to debate this, but it does sound like it's been going on kinda long. That's why I think we don't have an applicable setup.

At the bolded, how is that not relevant? One side says it's site meta and the other says they've never seen it and you don't know why that would matter?

Seriously?

Because it is usually brought up in newbie games I would assume. If that's correct, then when it is brought up is more or less moot.

I assume you know what they say about assuming.

It's literally a non-issue.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ythan's case on me is extremely weak. If they were not confirmed Town I would totally be voting there.

You on bus clown.

Kill this.

I feel like your push on me is for OGR because you don't like me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Omgus*

Yeah, well your case on me is still bad.

[LicketyQuickety]

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

IDK why that would matter tbh.

It's Null for me. It's normal for people to debate this, but it does sound like it's been going on kinda long. That's why I think we don't have an applicable setup.

At the bolded, how is that not relevant? One side says it's site meta and the other says they've never seen it and you don't know why that would matter?

Seriously?

Lol fantastic way to start your responses

It's literally not an issue at all. If you would have just thought I had a different perspective, that would be one thing, but you think it's actually Scummy which is weird.

You don't get to decide what's an issue welcome to mafia.

WTH is your problem?

[LicketyQuickety]

Ythan is literally just trying to piss me off at this point.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ythan's case on me is extremely weak. If they were not confirmed Town I would totally be voting there.

You on bus clown.

Kill this.

I feel like your push on me is for OGR because you don't like me.

Sorry you feel they way if you aren't just bullshitting to get out of a whole but no you're the scummiest person in this game.

What have I been BSing about? Literally nothing. Everything I've said is true.

[LicketyQuickety]

Quit trying to make things personal and play the game.

No, bro. You started it.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ythan's case on me is extremely weak. If they were not confirmed Town I would totally be voting there.

You on bus clown.

Kill this.

I feel like your push on me is for OGR because you don't like me.

Sorry you feel they way if you aren't just bullshitting to get out of a whole but no you're the scummiest person in this game.

What have I been BSing about? Literally nothing. Everything I've said is true.

It gets less and less plausible you actually believe this with every post you make.

You are so full of shit.

[LicketyQuickety]

Quit trying to make things personal and play the game.

No, bro. You started it.

No bro I voted you welcome to mafia.

And then you started to try and intentionally piss me off.

[LicketyQuickety]

You don't get to decide what's an issue welcome to mafia.

This post is made for not other reason than to piss me off.

[LicketyQuickety]

I assume you know what they say about assuming.

This comment is also made to piss me off.

[LicketyQuickety]

You don't get to decide what's an issue welcome to mafia.

This post is made for not other reason than to piss me off.

Do you really think you are capable of saying what my intentions are lol.

Yes, it's pretty clear you have a grudge against me for some reason.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Clasko

Yeah, I feel like this is money. I think that was an actual slip tbh.

Explain why.

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

IDK why that would matter tbh.

It's Null for me. It's normal for people to debate this, but it does sound like it's been going on kinda long. That's why I think we don't have an applicable setup.

At the bolded, how is that not relevant? One side says it's site meta and the other says they've never seen it and you don't know why that would matter?

These posts are specifically made to death tunnel me because the reasons for these things are obvious.

[LicketyQuickety]

If you think that's true why you don't report me. Please. And then let's get back to the game instead of ATEing.

Because I have a rule against reporting people unless something is extremely extremely toxic.

[LicketyQuickety]

If you think that's true why you don't report me. Please. And then let's get back to the game instead of ATEing.

Because I have a rule against reporting people unless something is extremely extremely toxic.

Then quit clowning and play the game.

I've already said your cased against me is weak (because it is) and you are still acting like I haven't provided any legitimate answers when I have.

[LicketyQuickety]

Yeah you said "your case is weak" a lot.

Because it is. I'm Scum for thinking something is a slip when it should be obvious why it is a slip. And even when I explain it, it doesn't effect your read on me. Then you think I am Scum for thinking it doesn't matter at what point in the game the Tracker talk starts (for references I said it would start early) but for some reason saying, "I didn't start early enough" is a reason to SR me. Go home, you're drunk.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't need you to self vote. I'm not here to convince you to admit you're scum. Keep up your ATE mess if you like.

My last posts has literally zero hint of AtE? Are you serious?

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't need you to self vote. I'm not here to convince you to admit you're scum. Keep up your ATE mess if you like.

My last posts has literally zero hint of AtE? Are you serious?

I don't really care about your input on your elimination as I've stated. If you want to escape play the game and look for scum.

I can do that if you give me a fricken moment to breath.

[LicketyQuickety]

Honestly, I'm exhausted by d1. My reads remain roughly unchanged by the last few days' worth of posts. I still think Alstro and LQ are the most likely pairing, but the link is tenuous. I think T3 could very easily be town, but could also be scum gaming around the fact that d1 convo has gone nowhere, and pointing that out to generate some warranted town frustration. I don't think we are getting anywhere without a flip, and I think the best candidate for that flip is LQ.

VOTE: LQ

This post is bad.

First, they do pre-flip. Then the make a hedgey read on T3. Then they say we need a lynch and proceed to start a new wagon.

VOTE: Margot

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't need you to self vote. I'm not here to convince you to admit you're scum. Keep up your ATE mess if you like.

My last posts has literally zero hint of AtE? Are you serious?

I don't really care about your input on your elimination as I've stated. If you want to escape play the game and look for scum.

I can do that if you give me a fricken moment to breath.

Not how forums work. Hop to it!

Which basically just means you don't want to give me time to Scum hunt.

[LicketyQuickety]

By all means keep pretending I control your actions.

LQ: I can't breath
Ythan: Don't act like I'm controlling you.

[LicketyQuickety]

What the heck is this cross? This just feels like LQ, trying as a last ditch effort to vote the other common scumread person trying to save themselves. This seems like PR or we caught scum at this point.

Why do you insist on being defensive and not wanting to be voted LQ?

What do you mean "Other common Scum read" I've literally been SRing Margot since the beginning of the game. The fact Margot is a wagon is a good reason for me to vote them.

And what do you expect exactly? Do you expect me to just not say anything to Ythan?

[LicketyQuickety]

Like I could have stayed on Alsto, but I don't think that is happening at this point. And Margot literally voted me when there was already a wagon on alstro which is Margot's other SR. It makes zero sense why Margot voted me instead of alstro there considering how close to EoD we are.

[LicketyQuickety]

I’m not saying you aren’t allowed to talk to Ythan at all. It just seems like you REALLY don’t want to be voted or have pressure.

Can I ask you why I would particularly want pressure on myself? Like, this conversation is old. Defensiveness is not a Scum tell for me.

[LicketyQuickety]

This seems like PR or we caught scum at this point.

If I am a PR, you really shouldn't be bringing that up unless you want me to claim.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'd prefer to make the Elim sooner rather than later since I probably won't be around for EoD.

[LicketyQuickety]

I’m not saying you aren’t allowed to talk to Ythan at all. It just seems like you REALLY don’t want to be voted or have pressure.

It's mostly because it's Ythan. We have completely different worldviews regarding religion which was discussed outside of this thread.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't remember discussing the differences in our views. I remember repeatedly wtfing the explanations you gave for every conclusion you posted. But that's neither here nor there.

It seems pretty obvious if anyone has a grudge over this it's you.

Whatever. I'm willing to drop it if you are.

[LicketyQuickety]

To be clear yes I'm happy to drop it.

Hopefully I can chill now that I've started on a beer.

[LicketyQuickety]

If you're asking about the RQS scum tell sample size, you've been on this site long enough to know that one.

If it's the "tbh" tell I'm not sure how you expect me to source that unless you want me to comb through every newbie game and CTRL+F scum ISO's for "tbh" and "honestly". Which uh, I'm not gonna do. But I'm clearly not the only one who's heard of that tell anyway.

Going back to this, this is pretty Scummy?

Feels sorta like fake.

Ditto except in reference to your response.

I'll be honest, IDK what this means.

[LicketyQuickety]

Meta is for nerds I prefer to learn through experience.

I forgot why I quoted this

Actually, comical.

[LicketyQuickety]

If you're asking about the RQS scum tell sample size, you've been on this site long enough to know that one.

If it's the "tbh" tell I'm not sure how you expect me to source that unless you want me to comb through every newbie game and CTRL+F scum ISO's for "tbh" and "honestly". Which uh, I'm not gonna do. But I'm clearly not the only one who's heard of that tell anyway.

Going back to this, this is pretty Scummy?

Feels sorta like fake.

Ditto except in reference to your response.

I'll be honest, IDK what this means.

Feels sorta like fake.

Are you spending this time trying to sort me?

You're outed tracker and no one has CC'd that. So I don't really feel like I have to sort you until there's a CC somewhere, and that doesn't look very likely since everyone already knows you claimed. I mean, COULD your slot claim tracker as Scum? I suppose. But I would not expect that from a newbie. I was more just wondering what you meant in that post since it was hard for me to follow exactly what you were saying. I thought you were agreeing with me, but then I didn't know what the rest was about.

[LicketyQuickety]

Don't like this vote. IIRC there was something like this brought up in past Newbie games.

Honestly sincerely would love to see one or more games where you have witnessed this before.

I'd have to dig. Want me to? I suspect it won't change your read on me so it's kinda pointless, but I will if you want me to.

[LicketyQuickety]

Don't like this vote. IIRC there was something like this brought up in past Newbie games.

Honestly sincerely would love to see one or more games where you have witnessed this before.

I'd have to dig. Want me to? I suspect it won't change your read on me so it's kinda pointless, but I will if you want me to.

I am considering moving my vote but don't be surprised if I don't.

You repeatedly saying this is normal when I don't think that's true is a sticking point though.

Found it, just in case you were wondering. I used to go by Quick. Actually I started as LQ then made a main alt of Quick, then went back to LQ. IDK if this matters to you or not, but here's where I saw it at least once.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10116096

[LicketyQuickety]

Okay, going to buy groceries. Don't hammer before I get back.

[LicketyQuickety]

The number 8

Huh?

[LicketyQuickety]

You mean 8th on the player list, me?

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: T3

For being so low energy. Can't talk about this read much, but I do think T3 doesn't have much vigor this game. He also isn't explaining himself very well. Both things point to him being red.

But since Hockey has played with T3 before I want them to answer if T3 was this low energy in the game they played together. Will check for myself.

I just really don't buy a lot of stuff you say and here's an example. I don't really think the points you started from are true, and I don't think the conclusion you draw from those points makes sense either.

I mean, when T3 actually agrees with me about this I'm not really sure why you would think these would be bad points.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: T3

For being so low energy. Can't talk about this read much, but I do think T3 doesn't have much vigor this game. He also isn't explaining himself very well. Both things point to him being red.

But since Hockey has played with T3 before I want them to answer if T3 was this low energy in the game they played together. Will check for myself.

I'm very low energy because this is a stagnant newbie.

Like, plain black and white that T3 is agreeing with me. It's for a different reason, but it does say I had a point about T3.

Seriously Ythan, your case on me is BAD.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: T3

For being so low energy. Can't talk about this read much, but I do think T3 doesn't have much vigor this game. He also isn't explaining himself very well. Both things point to him being red.

But since Hockey has played with T3 before I want them to answer if T3 was this low energy in the game they played together. Will check for myself.

I just really don't buy a lot of stuff you say and here's an example. I don't really think the points you started from are true, and I don't think the conclusion you draw from those points makes sense either.

I mean, when T3 actually agrees with me about this I'm not really sure why you would think these would be bad points.

He literally agreed with me that he wasn't explaining himself. Are you even reading the game?

He acknowledged he was low energy, I don't believe I saw him agree with the other. I still think they're illogical points to pick out and you didn't respond to the bit about how your conclusions don't make sense.

VOTE: T3

For being so low energy. Can't talk about this read much, but I do think T3 doesn't have much vigor this game. He also isn't explaining himself very well. Both things point to him being red.

But since Hockey has played with T3 before I want them to answer if T3 was this low energy in the game they played together. Will check for myself.

I'm very low energy because this is a stagnant newbie.

Like, plain black and white that T3 is agreeing with me. It's for a different reason, but it does say I had a point about T3.

Seriously Ythan, your case on me is BAD.

I'm perfectly content to let you hang if it means I don't hear anymore ATE for the rest of the game, tread lightly.

Where is the AtE? I dropped the AtE but I feel like you are being extremely unreasonable and are in a tunnel on another Town player for God knows what the real reason is.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: T3

For being so low energy. Can't talk about this read much, but I do think T3 doesn't have much vigor this game. He also isn't explaining himself very well. Both things point to him being red.

But since Hockey has played with T3 before I want them to answer if T3 was this low energy in the game they played together. Will check for myself.

I just really don't buy a lot of stuff you say and here's an example. I don't really think the points you started from are true, and I don't think the conclusion you draw from those points makes sense either.

I mean, when T3 actually agrees with me about this I'm not really sure why you would think these would be bad points.

He acknowledged he was low energy, I don't believe I saw him agree with the other. I still think they're illogical points to pick out and you didn't respond to the bit about how your conclusions don't make sense.

He literally agreed with me that he wasn't explaining himself. Are you even reading the game?

VOTE: T3

For being so low energy. Can't talk about this read much, but I do think T3 doesn't have much vigor this game. He also isn't explaining himself very well. Both things point to him being red.

But since Hockey has played with T3 before I want them to answer if T3 was this low energy in the game they played together. Will check for myself.

I'm very low energy because this is a stagnant newbie.

Like, plain black and white that T3 is agreeing with me. It's for a different reason, but it does say I had a point about T3.

Seriously Ythan, your case on me is BAD.

I'm perfectly content to let you hang if it means I don't hear anymore ATE for the rest of the game, tread lightly.

Where is the AtE? I dropped the AtE but I feel like you are being extremely unreasonable and are in a tunnel on another Town player for God knows what the real reason is.

EBWOP

[LicketyQuickety]

Are you still just responding to my posts, by the way? Not a good look at this point.

Are you just tunneling me at this point?

You and I are the only ones in the thread. I've given reasons for my vote. What else do you want? Would you like me to hand feed you pealed grapes while you lay in bed?

[LicketyQuickety]

You could act like you're town trying to salvage the predicament you're in by achieving a scum elimination, which you are not doing.

What exactly are you expecting of me?

[LicketyQuickety]

Like, Ythan, you haven't answered a single one of my questions to you. You continue to tunnel on me. Then expect me to do something else besides engaging with you. You are being completely unreasonable. I've given my reasons for my vote. I'm voting a player I have been Scum reading since the beginning of the game. I've replied to the relevant posts from that person. If you are just asking me to tunnel a player who isn't even here IDK what to tell you.

[LicketyQuickety]

EOD is coming up, and honestly LQ using Meta as their defense for being defensive isn’t a very good defense. I used meta to defend myself in another game but couldn’t show that I wouldn’t do that as scum is why it didn’t work. If you can give me multiple accounts of your defensiveness actually being NAI then sure I might believe the Pmeta.

For now I think this elimination should happen.

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

E-2 if I counted right (I might not have, please do correct me)

See, I would have expected you to ask me to meta case myself before saying I haven't done that and therefore I am Scum. Who asked me to look into other games? Did you? I don't think you did. So for you to say, "LQ hasn't given quotes for when he's been defensive even though no one asked him to so he is Scummy."

[LicketyQuickety]

If EOD wasn’t coming up very soon, it would’ve been separate things to say. Guess where we are. I’m in a hurry and don’t want no elimination to happen. Plus it barely affects what I’ve said about thinking your reaction to Ythan’s posts seem to me like scum being defensive and not wanting to be eliminated, or PR. Your post just seems to take what I’ve said and take out parts of what I’ve already said.

Because it's old ground. That's why I'm not responding to the same lame case that has been made against me all game which is that I've been defensive. And then when I am not defensive I am somehow Scummy for not being defensive, at least to Marget. I can't win! This has been a very frustrating last few hours. Bad reasons, then bringing up past bad reasons, and a tunnel on me that is really poorly thought through then saying the reason for the vote on me was hardly impacting their read on me.

Yeah, if it looks like I'm frustrated, I am.

[LicketyQuickety]

This was so uncomfortable to read. Also very unnecessary since it did nothing to change my mind and overall added nothing to the game. LQ isn't scummy because of whatever personal reason Ythan has against him; LQ is scummy because his ISO is full of flip-flopping and opportunistic pushes with flimsy reasoning.

VOTE: LQ

I'd love for you to tell me what pushes I'm made that are opportunistic. If you think my push on Clasko was opportunistic (that the only one I can honestly see as being read that way) then I'd say initially I really thought it was a slip until I thought about it more. I was excited we caught Scum and then I lost confidence in it.

If there's a reason why being flip floppy is a Scum tell, I'd really love to hear it. I think flip floppy more often comes from Town, but what do I know?

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ is probably town ftr
VOTE: lq

Way to hammer without a claim.

[LicketyQuickety]

Weh.

[LicketyQuickety]

Good performance Lick, sincerely.

Also this LQ you really seemed possibly town.

I've had better Scum games. But I appreciate the sentiment.

[LicketyQuickety]

Defensiveness tell definitely works even on him still despite his claims of it being NAI.

Everything I said about that is true. Defensiveness is not a Scum tell for me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Some day you'll get eliminated for defensiveness as town and then you'll be free but until then it might be rough.

@Lick

That's what I'm saying though. When I first started playing, I got Elimed a lot as Town for "Defensiveness." It almost became a meme on my homesite and basically became a motto of "Defensiveness is not a Scum tell" specifically because of me. Ofc I don't really have access to those games anymore so I can't link them. And going back to try and find them would be a walking nightmare.

[LicketyQuickety]

Some overall thoughts:

This game absolutely could not have been won without a stellar performance from my Scum buddy, Roden.
Margot getting Elimmed would have been very very dumb for Town.
Ythan totally had me because I didn't read their posts close enough when catching up and only saw their posts directed to me. So I would have come across differently if I didn't think Ythan was susing more people than just me.
T3 really needed to have more WIM here. They would not have gotten as much heat as they did if they brought their best effort to this game.
That's from what I saw. I didn't follow this game super closely after I died.

[LicketyQuickety]

gg's wp to Roden, game was fun to spec, sorry for having to replace out.

1 thing tho, idk why Roden was being mass tr'd in that f4 lol. I found Margot townier than Roden but again, I would probs condemed t3 there so lol.

Thanks Penguin for modding!

Roden started off getting super TR because I distanced with Roden well. It's about the only thing I'm good at as Scum. That's a trade secret that I am telling you because this is a newbie game and it's good for Site Meta health for players to get better.

[LicketyQuickety]

This marks the first game I've completed and won since I've been back. Was like a 6 game losing streak.

[LicketyQuickety]

Well I haven't won once since I've started on this website so I feel this.

At least you haven't been Mod Killed. I was Mod Killed my first two games I played for doing dumb stuff.