Open 825 - PYP X/Y: HoS_S [game over!]

[Auro]

Egopost

[Auro]

As in fae believes in it. I said I think it's all incorrect anyway, no?

I've noted before that while I'd enjoy walling against Flea's attack, I think it's inefficient (730). I doubt that longer posts justifying my own play would cause fae to get out of the tunnel. I'm not too bothered by it because I lightly townread them anyway, and I think fae is beginning to shift focus anyway (look at recent engagement re: Gamma Emerald).

-Harvey

[Auro]

Your "content" was fluff. It side comments and nothing that was readable to me.and yeah if I'm the only one who isn't able to read it that's still one person who cannot read you and is struggling to see your motivations and if you're pure or not. Specifically in my case a player with a bad habit of deathtunnelling. So rather than potentially waste what limited spell slots I have, I've tried to read you using the methods that my highly broken and intoxicated brain have available.

And what do you think I have been doing? You keep pointing back telling me to ask questions, but you're now saying to talk and engage with you about stuff, and I have, and I have established a read. Not a confident one, admittedly, but that's because there's 2 of you and only 1 turning up.

Sorry, but what I meant is that I don't know how to resolve your complaint that my Flea-readable content should be organic. I don't know why it should necessarily be an interrogation. I know that it's still one person who can't read me, but I don't know what would help.

[Auro]

That said, I'm not feeling it here, but I've also been disengaged from large parts of the game.

Did you get anything out of your interactions yesterday?

[Auro]

Of note is that in the past I have fallen into the trap as scum of pushing PP ("pushing" by my standards being putting in my PoE) because he's quiet, and I have usually been met with this response and been confused/frustrated about it.

Enchant's response to it really throws me, though, because it's counter to my intuitions as either alignment.

Interesting, I re-read that part and it's really... odd to see Enchant not just instantly accept House's towncase based on "tone, analytical, genuineness", but also say he was feeling dumb for having thought PP was scum.



Enchant, was there anything specific you found convincing in House's towncase of Penguin?

[Auro]

This entire game is just a lesson in how not to try to be funny over the internet.

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little self-voter? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Forum Academy, and I’ve been involved in secret raids on Mastina-Radiant Cowbell hydras, and I have over 300 confirmed misguillotines. I am trained in WIFOM and I’m the top OMGUSer in the entire mafiascum community. You are nothing to me but just another lolhammer. I will Preview-Edit you out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this website mark my words. You think you can get away with saying shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my network of alt-accounts across my computer and your name is being voted for right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your account. You’re fucking dead, newbie. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can modkill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my Auro account. Not only am I extensively trained in ISO analysis, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Semi-Experienced playerbase and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your ass off the face of this RVS, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your tongue. You didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn MyLo. I will IIoA all over you and you will drown in EBWOP. You’re fucking dead, Something_Smart.

[Auro]

VOTE: Gamma

Sorry about the sudden hammer :<

[Auro]

Sorry, been very busy day yesterday and likely today too. I'll be back my evening.

[Auro]

Thor is memeing.

Out of all the wagons I've actually disliked the votes on Flea the most, now lemme go read everything~

[Auro]

I don't think he expected to be epically called out. I don't know why he's faking this or what he expects to gain, but it's pretty damn clear he's talkin shit.

Not sure I agree that Thor was intending to be

townread

off of that. The meta was posted defensively, to show precedent of that behavior as town. That said, I will have a laugh if it turns out he's scum and the team all got roles from one side and he genuinely just believed that though. Can you recap your thoughts on his non-mech posts?

hqrahajabajjsnakskzksns i do not know why i am strugglinh to play this game mental blocks r the worst im gonna try to do isos tmrw so if theres anyone specific people r curious abt my thoughts on do lmk

Manatee? It's been more than a day, will you be doing those ISOs soon?

I am tempting to suggest no-elim and let give PR time to work.
... Joke. I just suggested it, statistic say we elim townie 1d most likely, so why not?

So this is a joke? Will you be voting anyone?

General dissatisfaction with the leading wagons

{Gamma, Enchant, Manatee} all seem like fine lims to me. You explained that Gamma's lack of survivalism made him seem at least meh-towny, but can you explain your dissatisfaction with the other two?

---

Miss Midnight, on a skim of the later parts of your ISO, I've observed that while you're happy to post defensively and engage with people about their thoughts, you barely appear to be the aggressor in your interactions. As a result, a lot of your engagement feels like it's not leading anywhere substantial, at least to me. Your vote was on Gamma for a while, but your engagement with Gamma was limited to "I think you're scummier" (1409). Kinda looks like you're voting non-controversial slots, and then just leaning back and posting mostly neutral content.

Any thoughts on that?
VOTE: Miss Midnight

[Auro]

My complaint is pretty simple: you're not aggressing or don't appear to be engaging with people in a manner that will obtain reads.

Treat me dumb and explain why this seems like such a backwards way of reading your play

[Auro]

Given I'm categorizing defensive/neutral against aggressive, would that matter? As lines are blurred there anyway.

What do you obtain from engaging people to talk about reads?

Also, literally on the page that you link to of my "only" engagement with Gamma, directly above the post you linked is an entire series of interactions between me and Gamma...?

Whoops, apologies. This is a retraction of that point. Reading back, I also missed those in my first read of the game .>.

[Auro]

While you're here: do you still townread Manatee?
If so, are you okay with her wagon right now? Why not push elsewhere?

[Auro]

Sorry, that wasn't a "would you say it's X or would you say it's Y?", it was a "would you say it's any one of (X or Y)?"

Uh, I obtain hopefully convincing people. I obtain other people's perspective on my thoughts, which help inform my own. It demonstrates to the thread at large that I'm playing the game instead of just thinking things but never making them known. .

Yes, it did seem (defensive or neutral), did it lead to a read on Penguin? I'd love to hear.
Sure, can you offer me more reads that were affected by your engagements? I know the theory reasons for engagement, my complaint is that the aggression seems lacking - that you're demonstrating that you're around, but playing it safe.

[Auro]

Actually, is it not very likely that scum already knows which setup it is, unless they have no power roles at all? I'm willing to take that chance and will throw this out here for more transparent discussion:

We're in the left-side setup

If you're going to drive a bread* truck through the thread, you might as well drop trou and tell all.

There's also a really tiny chance Thor is playing a certain 200IQ move with that entire line of posting.

[Auro]

Rather than pick out specific engagements, I'll pick out specific players you've had engagements with. Let's begin with CSF and Bee - what's your read on them right now?

[Auro]

Two more: PenguinPower and the worst.
Also, have CSF and Bee been townreads for you for a large part of the game?

This has nothing to do with you being 'defensive', it's part of me figuring out what utility you derived from engagements (apart from convincing people of something, we can get to that later).

[Auro]

Question for you to ponder. Is the important part to you "deriving utility" from engagements, or the attempt to do so in the first place?

Usually you can figure why someone thought their attempt was one worth making.

Last interactions: Penguin says there's no such thing as "evidence" on D1. You argue that there's a lot more readable content providing far more value than a flip. Penguin argues that behaviour can influence feelings and actions, but only revealed truth is evidence. You mention you just seem to use it in different ways and end the conversation.

Is your scumread on Penguin largely based off this interaction?

[Auro]

Caught up:

Gamma bumps up significantly.
ManateeGal's *there* and I don't necessarily dislike her content (e.g I don't think the "contradiction" regarding naked votes is terrible).
I still stand by my reasoning for MM!scum.
I'm also scumreading Titus now.

[Auro]

VOTE: Enchant

Choo chooooo

[Auro]

Note: looking back on votecounts, Thor needs a lot more pressure tomorrow.

[Auro]

Eh, I'm not faeling Flea!scum from her general tone of posting.

[Auro]

Right. Apologies again.

[Auro]

I have a terrible feeling about this and will prolly feel guilty but I can't resist

[Auro]

Looking forward to seeing the worst and Something_Smart tied at 6 votes each tomorrow.

Hmm, to vote Titus or not vote Titus...

[Auro]

This post is evidence that I am town.

[Auro]

I feel with have a deepwolf trying to force wagon manipulation.

Really? I feel like the momentum is too much to be inside scum control, which is great.

[Auro]

I thought it was clear. Auro’s fake hammer on you allowed Enchant to unvote which then led to people saying “oh scum wouldn’t act defeated like that” and then unvote Enchant to the point it was no longer a wagon.

I never pass up an opportunity to fake hammer. Always funny seeing people react as though I did when the VC is right in that page

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

[Auro]

VOTE: Enchant

This is fine ig. I'm kind of just sick of this day phase at this point.

Actually after thinking about it some more, I am surprisingly okay with a Titus wagon. Everyone who has been seriously run up today has felt townie. I feel like scum are hiding somewhere in the null-townreads.

VOTE: Titus

Also I remembered Enchant unvoting Gamma didn't seem like scum at E-2

Votes Enchant but notices that people scumread Titus, and tries to start a wagon there.

[Auro]

"Objectively terrible" why?

[Auro]

When Titus had claimed, you backed off and Enchant was gonna be the lim anyway?

Why am I scum over town that had a wrong read, Auro?

You snowed me bussing your teammate. This heavily looks like you wanted to bus, re-assessed that Titus could reasonably be limmed, then joined back when that didn't work out.

[Auro]

I think everyone on that Enchant wagon is likely town.

That paired with this post as well.

Incomplete sentence, I meant you snowed me in the past in that Masons n Mafia game with a well executed bus play.

[Auro]

You are on it, no? Didn't you put Enchant at L-1?
I'm not comparing playstyles, just that that bus play stood out to me, I figure you're pretty capable of townposting as scum though

[Auro]

Yeah but that's what I'm going off of, right? The reason you weren't present there is that you had voted Enchant and then immediately shifted to Titus.

[Auro]

Eh

VOTE: MM

[Auro]

Ah, right. My bad.

[Auro]

UNVOTE:
Don't wanna place her at E-2 yet.

[Auro]

I'd rather lim Thor, yeah
VOTE: Thor Ragnarok

[Auro]

GeorgeBailey

Is a medium role allowing this? There doesn't appear to be one in the setup list (which I carefully examined in the worst's honour), so I'm unsure why Enchant was able to say this and what the relevance of "GeorgeBailey" is. Is that someone in this game?

VOTE: GeorgeBailey to test.

Man, combined with your avatar your posts make me chuckle so much. Thanks <3

[Auro]

I'm not a big fan of associating activity with alignment, but i have to admit a touch of concern over the fact Auro has less posts than Datisi.

Add the posts from the Harvey & Haley account.

[Auro]

Thor's hilarious but it seems pretty much like he rolled scum and decided to experiment with how far he could get blatantly trolling everyone.

Note his phrase "which I carefully examined in the worst's honor", he knew what he was doing.

[Auro]

There is no alignment cop in this setup, so your point is moot.

Ascetic Cop | Bulletproof?

[Auro]

Inb4 Thor offers a mechanical strategy on the assumption that Ascetic Cop checks whether their target is Ascetic or not.

[Auro]

Your reaction is almost the exact same as people in this game when I didn't understand the setup:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=87385

I was town

Cite the posts where that happened in this game, please? I wasn't able to find them.

[Auro]

Interesting you didn't vote for Miss Midnight when she was your counterwagon and at 4 votes.

[Auro]

I'll vote for Miss Midnight or Auro.

I'm clearly never scum with Miss Midnight if you look at how she reacted to me earlier in this game.

I have the power to kill and I'm willing to direct my shot based on what town thinks is best.

It's also possible that both Miss Midnight and Auro are scum, to be clear.

@House: I just see these, can you please re-quote where he explained his lack of vote for MM? And I'm talking about a couple of pages ago, not D1.

@Titus: Thor.

[Auro]

Is it weird that I keep automatically assuming this has a white flag mechanic?

Enchant doesn't vote for Miss Midnight when I asked for his help twice and he never explains his townread there. He at one point says gut and at another says he thinks scum can't produce the drawing she produced...

Contrast that to his other townreads which he has plenty of explanations for and I think it may mean she's scum.

I'd vote her but I don't wanna look opportunistic and I'm scared everyone's just gonna jump on board of me any minute now so I will cower under the rug of my attic and only emerge when it is safe outside.

And I find it interesting that it's "safe outside" and a vote on me given how I am currently perceived this day isn't opportunistic.

[Auro]

Mm, nothing spicier than a wagon on yourself, I was beginning to get worried about the lack of resistance to the other two

And I find it interesting that it's "safe outside" and a vote on me given how I am currently perceived this day isn't opportunistic.

And I find it interesting how you're ignoring him interacting with me after i told him I wanted more votes on him, which clearly meant it was NOT "safe outside".

And I find it interesting how you agree it's not "safe outside", therefore meaning his logic should dictate it's still a bad time to place a vote, contradicting his actual placement of a vote on me.

[Auro]

I recognise that, but I'm factoring in the sentiment towards me so far in D2 as well - I'm scumread by a few and townread by no one? Both slots which townread me are now dead

[Auro]

Indeed, but it felt nice to say it anyway

[Auro]

I know I've attacked MM before but my heart disagrees

[Auro]

The beginning sequence of that movie is <3

You wanna know how to push my buttons, Housey Mousey?

[Auro]

I thought it was clear. Auro’s fake hammer on you allowed Enchant to unvote which then led to people saying “oh scum wouldn’t act defeated like that” and then unvote Enchant to the point it was no longer a wagon.

Oh yeah, I just wanted to point out that it's theory-bad for scum to fakehammer a very promising lim wagon on the indirect assumption that reacting to the fakehammeree could net your buddy townreads. A usual outcome of fakehammers is drawing genuine responses from the hammeree, and the risk of destroying that wagon isn't worth the townreads you'd potentially net for the other.

[Auro]

A usual outcome of fakehammers is drawing genuine responses from the hammeree

Not such a concern if your intention was noted in scum chat, is it?

Sure, but I'm talking about scum fakehammering town, not scum fakehammering scum. Penguin's argument was that scum (me) fakehammered town (GE) to engineer scumbuddy's (Enchant) response to GE's reaction to obtain townreads. Of course, you could extend it to me being scum

with

GE and orchestrating all of it, which would be... hmm.

[Auro]

Oh no, I've started using "Sure," too

[Auro]

:heartbroken:

Is MM at her fourth prod?

[Auro]

She'd die tonight anyway, as the cop is ascetic.

Yeah, but then scum have to use their NK on a widely suspected slot rather than someone towny.

[Auro]

In case I get vigged -> remember that my spicy take is Penguin scum.

[Auro]

In case I get vigged -> remember that my spicy take is Penguin scum.

I don't remember you having this take at all. What is the basis for it?

That's why I added the adjective "spicy"

Penguin's poor logic in his attack on me, and his further pushes without acknowledging arguments against it.

[Auro]

Guess I'm scum too.

Nope.

it's not poor logic though

theory vs. application and all that.

Forget theory - application wise that possibility is a stretch.
This was not the primary counter anyway, which was that I fakehammer

every game

when I see the chance. I do it multiple times in the same game.

[Auro]

Except I find value in fakehammers for the reactions they draw (and it's also fun), which are the "actual" reasons I pull them off. I didn't establish the meta for the sake of establishing that meta, it's something I do because of those exact reasons every time.

Why ignore that and instead post-hoc reason that since Enchant

happened

to get a few town points for his reaction to a reaction (which is contrived), it's more probable that I planned it so?

[Auro]

My stated theory is what happened in reality if Gamma is town: my fakehammer drew a reaction from him which dismantled the wagon on him and ultimately led to a scum elimination.

This is verifiable meta, you don't have the requirement of needing to think I'm town to believe said meta.

Sure, it's kinda the game - positing theories backed by poor logic as scum to push your desired eliminations

[Auro]

Everybody dies.

[Auro]

Oh good, he's gone.

Why?

[Auro]

shortaru

We have a medium in this game??!

[Auro]

VOTE: Bee

Interesting, I thought you'd wait for a claim - or do you simply believe that Enchant stuff is strong enough?

[Auro]

Also this:

significantly more likely

little higher

Enchant downplayed the chance of scum rolling high in the draft.

One thing I noticed was that Enchant seemed to "echo" thoughts of other people that he picked up from thread.

[Auro]

Or he's mafia, and wasn't lying when he said he has kill power, and is laughing at all of us now

[Auro]

Not sure what MH means but hope you feel better soon, Flea.

[Auro]

We just play as normal, but get two wagons. Both claim. If one flips town vig the other (this supposes no claim clear)

Not a fan of this - given the possibility of a jailkeeper or roleblocker.

Thor, was there any reason you claimed vig on D2 if you're an N3 vig?

[Auro]

Or he's mafia, and wasn't lying when he said he has kill power, and is laughing at all of us now

VOTE: Auro

What was the misunderstanding that led to this vote?

[Auro]

I'm a bit suspicious of S_S but not for the lack of a Thor push, his content just seems really forced.

[Auro]

VOTE: S_S

[Auro]

Something_Smart has seemed quite town to me, he gives off meditative energy.

Auro, I voted for you for the same reason I voted for Miss Midnight the previous day; the number theory points to you being scum.

No, that's fine, but why the unvote right after in that case?

[Auro]

Something_Smart has seemed quite town to me, he gives off meditative energy.

Auro, I voted for you for the same reason I voted for Miss Midnight the previous day; the number theory points to you being scum.

Also - say Flea had chosen 12 instead of 13, fae would be in the 5th spot. Would you have voted Flea on that basis then, since you'd be shocked if none of the top 5 are scum?

And this logic also outweighs your earlier reasoning to believe my slot was town for picking a meme number?

Your plan of action here would be to continue limming down the list?

Something_Smart has felt towny this game for other reasons.

What were the "other reasons" mentioned there - the same "meditative energy"?

[Auro]

He claimed killing power D2, no?

[Auro]

Even if he's scum he can still help town with his shot! It's not about being a vig being towny, it's about him being able to help town with his role.

What players would make for bad or scummy vig shots in this list?

[Auro]

Anyone who hasn't claimed?

And anyone who has claimed whom people don't show interest in killing.

So as of right now - no one would make for a bad shot?
Which players do you think make for scummy vig shots keeping claims aside? Say, in a hypothetical where everyone was vanilla.

[Auro]

Which players do you think make for scummy vig shots keeping claims aside?

I don't know. I can't remember who other people townread.

Depending on your reads alone.

[Auro]

You said the vig shot can help town even from scum. Which I don't get. In a game with a couple lurkers scum keeps around, sure, but here that doesn't seem to be the case. Thor can shoot virtually anyone (save Titus per your post, and maybe Bee?) and get away with it, so it just helps scum get to their goal faster in that scenario.

[Auro]

Forced how?

Usually in my experience with S_S I find his content agreeable and relevant, even if not spicy. Here I feel like he's just coming up with takes that he does know are mechanically arguable, and letting the game pass by.

[Auro]

Auro, why did you wait to vote SS until after Penguin voted for him?

I wasn't waiting.

[Auro]

As in the my votes don't always 1:1 match my attacks, sometimes they come before and sometimes after.

[Auro]

@PP: Requoting context:

VOTE: S_S

If Thor's off the table for today, this is where I prefer to go next. I'm not fond of his Bee vote, and he mysteriously dropped his push on Thor from day 2.

I'm a bit suspicious of S_S but not for the lack of a Thor push, his content just seems really forced.

Mmm - sorry Takes of Arise came out yesterday and I’ve been preoccupied.

Let’s try this

VOTE: s_s

VOTE: S_S

I mentioned my scumread of S_S in 2995 half a day before the vote, and also described it later when CSF asked. What exactly did you dislike about this?

[Auro]

Sadly you can't vig me if I'm already dead

[Auro]

No comment on the Thor thing. Unfair to talk about.

Would it really be unfair for you to tell us whether you know Thor's main or not?

[Auro]

Interesting. And do you have comments on anything else - S_S, or me, for starters?

[Auro]

The only person who seemed interested in the game was killed.

[Auro]

I can't tell you

Jk, I find it interesting because I don't think it's unfair for us to know whether you know someone's main - you're not revealing their main.

If you feel that way about our slots then why not place a vote?

[Auro]

*shrug*

You could've attacked me for that earlier this game as well - I often tend to attack slots through posts first and vote later.

And I like wagons.

[Auro]

Alchemist?
Alchemist!!

[Auro]

Titus, why is (at least your D2) play devoid of any reasoning and simply votes and theory talk?

[Auro]

Somebody please talk to me about something. I'm really not picky.

ELI5 Strange Matter.

[Auro]

Gentoo or Arch?

[Auro]

Why are you partner hunting anyway

I mean... what's the problem with pair-hunting though?

[Auro]

I can claim.

[Auro]

It will probably end up being irrelevant and it can lead people down rabbit holes.

Association-based reads can drive up the likelihood of an individual slot being scum though.

[Auro]

Yeah, but scum play around with anything and everything - same applies to general individual tells too.

[Auro]

I disagree about the validity of that scumread, too!

[Auro]

I'm the doctor.
N1 targeted S_S
N2 targeted Bee

[Auro]

I thought S_S would be the most likely "mechanical" kill based on his experience and draft position (scum may not target the 1st because wifom).

[Auro]

You're counter-claiming?

[Auro]

Insta S_S if I flip, obviously.

[Auro]

Because it's 2 days left and I'm the current lim candidate?

[Auro]

gg, nice job Bee btw, I thought you'd prolly make it to F3