Open 825 - PYP X/Y: HoS_S [game over!]

[Harvey and Haley]

VOTE: ManateeGal
I like wagons.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

GeorgeBailey once told me the world is gonna roll me

GeorgeBailey once told me this:

GeorgeBailey

[Harvey and Haley]

Enchant, do you have any particular reason for the Titus vote?

Bee is Vigilante 100%.

Why would you reveal that?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

And here's your Page 2 solve, folks.

{Titus}
{PenguinPower}
{Enchant}
{Flea the Magician, Something_Smart, Thor Ragnarok, Cat Scratch Fever}
{Miss Midnight, House, the worst}
{Gamma Emerald, Bee}
{ManateeGal}

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Can i counterask.

Why you asking me about reason of vote on Titus, on damn RVS where everyone vote everyone for sake of that.

Because there is a small amount of extra information on the basis of which you can cast your vote.
For example, PenguinPower's vote.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Can i counterask.

Why you asking me about reason of vote on Titus, on damn RVS where everyone vote everyone for sake of that.

If you really want to know.

Titus, because he used 999999999999 and somehow still higher than me.
Dirty play.

Interesting tone in post 39 given you did have a more-than-random reason for the vote.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Your list is upside down!

what do you make of me voting manatee then?

Bee's reversed list would put you and ManateeGal towards the top; wouldn't it be more interesting to direct this question towards me?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Good logic. Early townreads for me on you, Enchant, and Bee.

Can you explain the Bee townread? Thanks.

-Harvey
(Also my partner is Haley not

Hayley

)

[Harvey and Haley]

imagine getting outdrafted by memers

haley

[Harvey and Haley]

Titus is probably town for picking 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

Scum would probably be a little less careless and pick a 2 digit number which was still very unlikely to be picked, but would beat other meme high picks

Like 53, it would've beaten the 69 meme pick

yeah im on this too
high chance of being right near the end

you said it with your eyes

remember when you thought i was giving you the fuck me eyes? we talked about this, ducky.

does harvey have any reads yet?

im sure he does, but his early reads arent worth listening to
(we haven't spoken yet)

the good:
thor has started off townie
pp offering a read while others reveled in nonsense and/or mech
worst seems to poking people in an inquisitive way with his immediate entrance

FOS: Bee, Gamma

extended off topic is the domain of scum
i dont think i read a single bee post that wasnt fluff or fluff adjacent

on the draft, as others, i'm expecting scum utilised their power not to collide in both phases
phase two feels like the cuter way to int

haley

[Harvey and Haley]

im sure he does, but his early reads arent worth listening to
(we haven't spoken yet)

the good:
thor has started off townie
pp offering a read while others reveled in nonsense and/or mech
worst seems to poking people in an inquisitive way with his immediate entrance

FOS: Bee, Gamma

You will find, partner, that none of my reads are worth listening to, not just early game I'm here for the vibez

My page 2 reads list wasn't entirely random. The bits of logic Thor posted have almost all contributed to that.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

i did think it was kinda funny that gamma gave a s/o to thor's interactions after completely non-interacting with thor and not actually being able to state any opinions on thor's interactions lol, i'm not sure i'd expect gamma to have entered the ~~zone~~ this early in the game though.

... Is Gamma the kind of player you expect would directly engage someone first before making a read though?

He pointed out that Thor's interactions were a highlight before admitting to the scumread, doesn't that indicate some level of organic thought? The way you phrased this makes his actions seem much more aggressive wrt attacking Thor and refusing to engage.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

you know i nearly submitted 69 or 420 but then decided to just stick with 3

So close, I would've locktowned anyone who picked 69 with us

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Thor: do you have any content-based reads so far?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

i am pretty sure gamma doesn't actually scumread thor
where are you getting the idea that I thought Gamma was aggressively avoidant? where are you getting the idea that i think gamma is attacking Thor?

The phrasing of your post? Unless s/o doesn't mean... oh wait, "shout out"

"after completely non-interacting with thor"
"not actually being able to state any opinions"

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

@harvey have you read gamma's iso?

Yes.

Why the vote on Manatee, too scared of coming @ us tw? :3

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

first instinct is that your misread of my post is an authentic misread ~60% of the time and trying to look busy like ~40% of the time. i'm just like, really confused by how you actually got there. i'll meditate on it later.

I was referring to your bad vibes on Haley's post though

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Why did no one pick 1 or 2 if no one else was going for it btw? I went for 11 because it's my favourite number but I would've gone for 1/2 to secure first place had I known

I mean... you don't *know* that no one else is going for it, right? It's reasonable to assume someone's gonna pick it
I'm sure anyone would've picked 1/2 if they knew no one else was going for it

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Good logic. Early townreads for me on you, Enchant, and Bee.

Can you explain the Bee townread? Thanks.

@Miss Midnight

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

There's nothing compelling or convincing that I could tell you at this stage. I just got a towny feeling reading her posts up to that point.

Sure. I don't need compelling/convincing anyway, I just wanna look at the thought processes.

Any thoughts on ManateeGal's reaction (or lack of one) to her wagon?

-Harvey Specter

[Harvey and Haley]

do i have anything else of importance to add? also no

Do any of the votes on your wagon look suspicious? Towny? Opportunistic?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I'd sacrifice all of my friends for a day vigilante

Omg yes if only there was a dayvig in the draft picks

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Who's in the mood for some sweet, sweet RQS?

-Harvey Dent

[Harvey and Haley]

Choo choo!!

VOTE: Enchant

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Oh, and for anyone wondering why i picked 4 (I remember someone askeda general question about picks), it's my favorite low level number and i wasn't concerned about rolling PR because i don't want my possible miselim for low content hurting town.

Feels like this is trying too hard to justify yourself.

I feel like this is fine, but dropping a vote on Manatee without comment on the quickly formed counterwagon is what feels a bit off to me...?

-H

[Harvey and Haley]

Except for the fact it wasn't without content, whatevs.

Can you quote that comment, please? I meant specifically about Enchant.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Who's in the mood for some sweet, sweet RQS?

-Harvey Dent

On page 12? Calm yourself two-face.

Oh yeah I wanted to reply to that
It’s kinda late for an RQS at this point, ngl I kinda think it might be legitimately scummy

There we go, I was wondering if the mere

mention

of RQS would be attacked as scummy without even actually doing it

@House: I acknowledge your comment on Manatee! My tiny concern was about how there was an Enchant counterwagon that formed just before that, and you made the Manatee vote without mentioning your approval of the Enchant wagon.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Also, House, you were Shortaru right? Remember me by any chance?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Enchant wasn't even on my radar... which isn't a great sign for them from my perspective.

And, they haven't posted for the last 12 pages... during "work hours", i get that (my posting is greatly restricted while i work), but it's pretty late now, yeah?

Sure, but I'm clarifying my stance about the specific timing of your two posts back then. Enchant may not have been on your radar because of their posts but the wagon forming

on them

was blatantly there.

Also I'm not really grokking the House-tw-Gamma interactions a few pages after that. Where's my morning coffee?

Yes, it was years ago, I just remember it was fun

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Curious comment, considering your clamming-up on the circumstances of Manatee.

Love the alliteration.

@House: Okay.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Oh, that's not a bad vote. But I think I'd rather go

VOTE: Harvey and Haley

For their early townlean on Thor when Thor wasn't doing anything but setup speccing.

Note that it wasn't simple speculation about the setup.
Thor was making alignment reads based on it - why can't that be considered alignment-indicative?

Harvey (and anyone else), i don't think anything productive will come of rehashing the me/Gamma drama wholesale, but if you have specific questions, I'll be happy to address them.

Uninterested unless it's still ongoing.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I think we're all buddying each other, and I am living for this energy.

What do you guys think about H&H?

:shrug:
What's on your mind?

tw, I was actually expecting you to soul scumread me by now.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

roughly my fourth or fifth choice atm

Did you not say you had a shitty surface level townread on us before? What caused the demotion to 4th/5th choice of wagon?

What alignment reads did he make, exactly?

The only thing i found didn't match up with his stated reads or votes.

Sure, some examples:
98: 2 likely scum in group of 5
106: Titus town
228: Unlikely scum slots based on statistical pick history

If the response is that anyone can point these out, I'd argue that anyone could post anything - there's nothing specific to these that make them invalid as a basis for forming an early read.
Can you point out the contradiction between his setup-reasoned reads versus votes? That's more interesting to me.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Not sold on the contradictions from positions 2/5/9.

Thor did state it, but likely only as an observation of interest. Draft positions are heavily randomly determined, as opposed to number picks - so I doubt that Thor actually places any stock in that.

But I agree with the next part.

@Thor

, did you have stronger reasoning to vote Gamma than from your earlier likely-containing-scum pools?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

any particular reason why?

Yes, I made a resolution before joining the game that I'd not hopelessly refresh the page every minute and just appear twice a day for a while. I was expecting you would make a comment on my slot's lack of thread energy.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

it felt like you were scum who didn’t feel like you had a good entrance available so you tried to float the RQS boat out

That feels extremely hollow given I had plenty of other content by then (that was my 26th post) and around the same time too...?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

It's easy to conjecture about what numbers scum would pick, but it's not particularly helpful - and their conjectures aren't necessarily accurate. I've seen all 3 scum pick double digit numbers for the express purpose of avoiding number collision, which did end up working out to scum's benefit. This kind of setup spec (or draft spec, specifically) read more like busywork to me. And consequently, giving him a townread in 202 seemed premature.

I'm not arguing about the absolute accuracy of these conjectures, rather how they compare against other tells.

Consider:
"I think X is towny for doing <Y> early in the game!"
"But scum can easily do <Y>"

Any

possible value you can fill for <Y> can be faked by scum and thus not necessarily accurate, especially in early game. That doesn't diminish the value of these reads.
Draft spec is busywork if it leads nowhere, but in his case it had already seemed to set a prior for alignments of certain others.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Has it all been the one head?

I have been signing all my posts -Harvey; are you saying you actually assumed that one RQS post was from the other head?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I suppose you can say that, but it's not like he voted anyone in his scumpool by that point. How could you tell he was going to follow throughm, or if the draft spec reads even meant anything to him?

I don't really expect immediate consistent follow-throughs but I did assume that would factor into his play in a more meaningful manner, hence my question to him earlier on his Gamma vote when House pointed that out. I don't think that was an unreasonable assumption at that point.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Kinda
I have literally zero ability to tell you two apart by tags

Our posting styles are also different (evidenced by one of my partner's earlier posts), and my partner also packs more content into single posts. This kind of hasty assumption feels unexpected from you.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

-H

[Harvey and Haley]

Helay and Haley

-Helay

[Harvey and Haley]

Who's in the mood for some sweet, sweet RQS?

-Harvey Dent

On page 12? Calm yourself two-face.

Oh yeah I wanted to reply to that
It’s kinda late for an RQS at this point, ngl I kinda think it might be legitimately scummy

kewl, my vote stays where it is for now.

I'll bite. Was your "kewl, vote stays" in response to Gamma's suspicion on my post about RQS?

Did you also happen to assume that my "RQS" post was an awkward entrance from another head? If not, why was mentioning it scummy?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Right. And would you be able to describe your dislike of my slot's content?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

And speaking of pointless filler - your only stated read this game is a scumread of us because you don't like our content.
Any comments on that?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Recent events have raised my interest in alt-hunting Thor.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

the worst also gets a fancy sign of his own since he picks 3 every game, so his high position is less relevant.

Something_Smart also picks 9 every game. It's strange to me that you know that but not this, and also that I knew this but not that; not until someone pointed it out.

Interesting. Wonder what sort of metagaming this could lead to.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Cat Scratch Fever is town unless she's scum with 2 players who are also unaware the worst selects the number 3 every game. She'd have no reason to also pick 3 had she known

Thor: does this factor in to your overall current read on CSF?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

So, if I scumlean both Cat Scratch Fever and Gamma Emerald, I will be voting the cat. I will be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Titus if she feels scummy, and I will be more wary and cautious if someone like Miss Midnight feels towny.

Given two votes on Gamma already, and your statement here (keeping aside that the premise of the earlier parts of that post has been discarded) wouldn't that be a stronger vote for you?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

when you’re adept at faking things

You know who's behind the Thor alt? .o.

P-edit. VOTE: House

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

weren't you just voting gamma with house?

Lost interest in that for now, House is null to me, and there's momentum here.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Would you vote Gamma if I re-voted there, Titus?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

loving the lack of follow up from Harvey

I love writing walls to cases, but I think it's pointless and inefficient responding to yours.
If there are specific parts of it you would like my response to, I'd be glad to.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Stop the theatre and sheep me, folks.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Speaking of engagement, is this level of activity typical for Haley?

So about that.
My other head took a break from Mafia a few months ago. He was down to give it another go as a hydra since this is my first game in a while as well, but still doesn't feel like playing.
Guess he might read parts of the game if I ask him to, if there's anything specific y'all want I'll ask.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

correct me if I'm wrong obviously, I don't think 13 15 etc. are earnest attempts to perform well in the draft given frequency of lower numbers picked historically. I think 10 is intentionally chosen to outperform as many duplicates as possible safely, so that feels earnest.

Not in a vacuum, but I'm assuming scum would have access to these stats - and if I were doing my due diligence I'd collect statistics of

all picks

, not just scum picks to go for the best bet to avoid collisions.

That data might suggest 13+ as a safer choice without much compromise. Curious to see if there's a cliff in the overall data.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Harvey you actually going to do anything except idle poking this game?

Like you alone have more posts than me and You have nothing but wool - and

where the hell is Haley

?

You still never answered who signed the posts as -H though.

Yes - I'll ask for more House votes.
Please vote House.

I've answered the bolded right in this page - perhaps you should stop dismissing my posts without reading them?

Both -H were me.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

tw!
Thor gives me good vibes, can we discuss the scumread on them?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

MINE
*idle poke*

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Do you see the reason the Thor wagon is happening? o:

I don't like it And I feel meh wrt Emerald, not bothered to build up that wagon though.

House, let's assume Gamma wasn't in the game: who would you vote for then, and why?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Thor, do you have access to stats of overall draft number pickings from past games (town+scum both not scum alone)?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I don’t see scum!Gamma right now but why not wagon someone? Just because of the effort vs the other two?

Early game I like seeing fast pressure and wagon momentum, and House is a slot I'm fine with a wagon on currently.

Not a fan of his disengagement with the game after the Gamma spat, especially considering he scumreads his most popular counterwagon.

I'm disinclined towards breaking that momentum just to build a wagon on a slot I don't feel very strongly about, and that other players have shown a lack of interest in voting alongside.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Too suicidal with the way he acts to be scum

You seem to be an alt of an older (in MS years) player, surely you must have seen many players rage in games as scum, no?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Also, Thor, would you be able to summarize the reasoning behind the wagon on you? And your thoughts on that?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I dislike Miss Midnight the most, the worst critiquing my number analysis as being possibly malicious also makes me dislike him somewhat, that seems quite unreasonable to think. Nothing notable on the others

I'd like to talk about Miss Midnight in more detail.
the worst's critique is fair though - scum would have equal access to the data since it's public, and that taints reads based on historical statistics to some extent. So I can definitely see the perspective there.

However

I don't think draft picks factor in all that much in reality, so playing the WIFOM game by mucking up the picks has a small payoff compared to the roles you can achieve trying to get a high position. Rationally scum should try to score high *shrug*

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

IDK I go the opposite direction with this and think he’s burning bridges to say look how much I’m fighting and no one is on my side but I’ll let him be for now because I don’t want to get into it since he’s not going to move his vote. :/

Call the bluff IMO, see what happens as he gets closer to lim range - will he change his vote? Will other players suddenly attempt to push a counterwagon?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Manatee or Enchant would be better votes

Were you scumreading Thor at any point?
Wanna talk about Thor?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Bold of you to claim I haven't been reading your posts though, don't you think?

My claim was based on your complaint that my posts were wool and your earlier "case".

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Not really, no... I toyed with the idea briefly, but he has zero motive as scum to actively attempt to derail my wagon in the way that he did, by posting details about me that he could have sat on as scum.

If my wagon is derailed, it might land on him or one of his buddies if he's scum, and i don't see him risking that as scum when he's already under suspicion himself.

That's fair. But why would ManateeGal be a good vote? I read her nonchalance to the wagon on her as pretty towny, don't you agree? Additional reasons to townread her have also been listed in this thread.

@Flea: Hence my use of double quotes. I asked you already if there's anything you'd actually like my response to. You're going to call my posts unrefined wool no matter what I talk about - even if I express stances, ask people to consolidate to wagons, discuss other people's reads, and so on. I'm not sure what you want from me specifically? Not really interested in taking up that dare, you can look up my thoughts on House if you want.

Also no. Leah is the best <3

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Yes, I made a resolution before joining the game that I'd not hopelessly refresh the page every minute and just appear twice a day for a while.

I hope you have better luck with your resolution than I'm having with mine.

Also...

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I've looked over your posts, thats the thing, there's almost nothing there.

I can't even see why you're on House. I'm trying to get you to follow up on your pokes because you're asking questions but doing absolutely nothing with them. You've done a lot with asking others for reads and it's clear you know my style from the quotes and not asking me for reads.

What I want from you, is to convince me house is a good vote.

Early game I like seeing fast pressure and wagon momentum, and House is a slot I'm fine with a wagon on currently.

Not a fan of his disengagement with the game after the Gamma spat, especially considering he scumreads his most popular counterwagon.

I'm disinclined towards breaking that momentum just to build a wagon on a slot I don't feel very strongly about, and that other players have shown a lack of interest in voting alongside.

When you see me asking someone for reads, do you not also see me discuss those reads? Also, I throw out a lot of questions, and don't necessarily post my thoughts on

every

response I get to them. If there's a specific question of mine you'd like more insight on (why it was asked, what I made of the answer, other potential answers I may have expected) please point them out!

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Pagetop!!

-H

[Harvey and Haley]

Meanwhile I can fully agree with house after the gamma spat, using ongoing is a dirty tactic because frankly we can go look for games and it brings OGI into this game. I don't see what the counterwagon has to do with this?

TLDR: Laziness and cruising along.

I see you respond only when prompted. I don't see you following up which is my main beef. You're asking questions, and seemingly doing nothing. It's looking busy while doing nothing.

My original mention of the counterwagon referred to the one on Enchant. At the time he posted, in the same page, there were multiple votes on Enchant, so it was a little odd that he popped in with a Manatee vote without mention of Enchant, the counterwagon.

In most cases where I don't visibly act on responses to me, it's because there's no game-progressing reason to. Again, if you think I'm asking empty questions - shoot me specifics and what kind of follow-up you'd expect with them.

I guess you're town!

You're goddamn right I am! Hell yeah!

Would be cool to see s_s have a vote somewhere....very cool

Literally typed "What would it cost me to have you vote somewhere, Something_Smart" and deleted it


-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I'm 90% confident Thor is partially memeing and chuckling at how people respond to his posts

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Sheeping Something_Smart
UNVOTE:

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Usually the reasons are something something wagon analysis something accountability but I've never seen anyone draw any productive information out of a vote that I placed on request.

I agree the information gain is little, but your vote would play a part in speeding up the game via pressure - no?

-Harvey (Auro)

[Harvey and Haley]

Thats why I'm hard-engaging you here. Because I want to squeeze it out of you.

Sure, as I said, I'm always happy to discuss specifics.

I'm not convinced that speeding up the game or pressuring are worthy goals. (This is why I vote so little in the first place.)

Tension produces more content - would you agree?
It's difficult to act perfectly naturally when it looks like the game is headed in the wrong direction for you as scum - would you agree to this?
That should make the case for pressuring, right?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

It's difficult to act perfectly naturally when it looks like the game is headed in the wrong direction for you as scum

... OR TOWN.

PR's have motive to stay alive too, especially on D1.

True, but I'd rather sift through <Earnest town unnatural play vs Scum panic play> as opposed to <town chilling vs scum chilling>.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

How can you categorize earnest & unnatural together? That doesn't make any sense.

We're thinking of variant definitions for "natural", I guess. I mean in the sense of deviating from how you'd play without pressure. I believe that deviations in town play and scum play, while both might be different from usual under pressure, have differences in that town know they're being wrongly limmed.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

What are your thoughts on only listing your top 2-3 interests in elimination instead of posting entire reads lists?

So I think scum are usually competent enough to accurately judge which slots are the most townread anyway *shrug*

But I'm good with the idea of increased focus on slots people wanna elim and consolidate on wagons.

I like Titus' point about my interactions with Thor and Enchant.

VOTE: Miss Midnight

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Gamma's ISO seems devoid of content apart from House/Enchant/me.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Okay, let me open up your ISO for posts about reads on players other than House/Enchant/me, scrolling from the bottom. You have 111 posts so far.

926 (#84): you don't know how to feel about tw prodding you
689 (#79): defense of thor's post
688 (#78): thor's post worrisome because gambler's fallacy
616 (#72): thor's post looks like filler
512 (#71): CSF town
...

Is that correct, till 512? Or have I missed out on any post?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

In 334 (#40). Question still stands.

-Harvey.

[Harvey and Haley]

That selective post range though :3

I mean, his latter half of 111 posts? I was too lazy to go further up.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I think a more pertinent question is “why is Gamma focusing on certain slots more than others?”

Indeed. Is there more nuanced reasoning than the below?

VOTE: harvey and haley
Idk about Enchant but I feel this is a decent vote seeing as I’ve seen like a few people express suspicion toward this slot and I also suspect them

House, why you think i am mafia?

You have a high fluff to content ratio, and you're open to voting everyone you haven't arbitrarily townread, which you've given no reason for reading as town for most of us so you can flip your reads on us without having to explain why.

This seems like solid reasoning at least
I’ll still stay on H+H for science (aka leaving the potential for a counterwagon)

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Which means your post and points are either lazy or theres nothing else to support your statement, but would in fact go against your accusation....

I believe this is sufficient to demonstrate the point I'm making.
I don't see much that goes against my accusation earlier than that as well - feel free to take a look yourself.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on my attack on Gamma, Fae/Gamma's positions, House, and Enchant.

I think House stepped up his play and has posted a lot I find myself in agreement with lately: I find that towny. What do you think?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

is fae flea? i know those r the pronouns fae uses.

Apologies. I meant Flea*, I mixed up the two.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

You're not the first to call me by my pronouns, don't worry about it Mom just calls me Faer at this point lol <3

Okay

My unsolicited opinion is- I thought it was a bit odd that out of the two people voting for you, you called out Gamma for having a limited variety of interactions lol. I'm curious to hear what your thoughts on Flea are, since the bulk of their interactions have been at or about you.

Good observation. I have experience playing with Gamma and his lack of overall nuance and meaningful interaction strike me as concerning, and (IIRC) no experience with Flea. Flea's entire attack also seems genuine, even if it's incorrect; and without a baseline I don't find it particularly suspicious in a vacuum. Do

you

make something out of Flea's hyperfocus on me?


-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Don't agree with Thor's pagetop theory. At least not without any real data to back it up.

(The irony isn't lost on me.)

A small addition - the Activity Tracker doesn't present the distribution of posts over time for each player, but their total posts. But since we have exact timestamp data anyway, we can directly plot these rather than go for pagetops (which is potentially only a decent proxy at high scale and at those scales given the amount of spam bursts it fails so meh). Lemme try that.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Why? I can pretty easily see town deciding between their scumleans by picking one that might get traction, and then documenting that decision

As I was saying earlier, it feels lazy and devoid of any further thought. There was nothing about the reasons others had suspected me. There was no summary of his own reasoning - he had expressed a dislike of my earlier attack on him, and adding that may have strengthened his attack.

It makes it look like he was seeking to leave a comfortable votepark, rather than actually threaten me.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

He may have been. Given the circumstances, that alone is not scum indicative.

Sure.
Enchant also goes from "Not much" (344) to "Idk" (1009) to "Why not?" (1037)
Manatee goes from "Don't wanna weaken the wagon" (328) to "Manatee's handling of her wagon seems towny" (344) to "TR starting to wane" (1128).
Neither of these trajectories look any impressive either.

As I was saying earlier, it feels lazy and devoid of any further thought.

I mean he specifically referenced the existence of further thought... why not ask about his other reasons, instead of assuming he has none?

And I acknowledge that in my post. Two things: first, in that sentence, I meant thought regarding other players' suspicions on me; second, I knew he had other reasons for suspecting me - as I pointed out, my problem is that he didn't express them in that post, that addition alone, from his PoV could have strengthened the attack. Instead it just looks like he's lazily voteparking after seeing other people suspect me.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Enchant read it's waffle-ish, but given that it's d1, that is whatevs.

Doesn't it seem like a pattern of him simply piling on popular wagons?
See people suspecting H+H -> Vote them
See people wagoning Enchant -> "idk" progresses to "why not" and then "probably"
See people start to wagon Miss Midnight -> "ngl I feel like miss midnight might be scum"

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Neat
Also while I kinda jumped at shadows on interpreting what the RQS was doing I think Flea is right that it was pointless filler

Literally the only thing I’ve seen come of it was a shitty “gotcha” scumread on me which feels very easy to fake as scum

Miss Midnight: I'll just point out that this^ seemed to have been important part of his reasoning.
(And this reasoning also sucks, the 'gotcha' seems pretty valid, and easy to fake as scum doesn't imply scum indicative)

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

As in fae believes in it. I said I think it's all incorrect anyway, no?

I've noted before that while I'd enjoy walling against Flea's attack, I think it's inefficient (730). I doubt that longer posts justifying my own play would cause fae to get out of the tunnel. I'm not too bothered by it because I lightly townread them anyway, and I think fae is beginning to shift focus anyway (look at recent engagement re: Gamma Emerald).

-Harvey

Whoops.

[Harvey and Haley]

I expected you to distill it down to a couple of points and nip it in the bud or something.

Well, there's not much you can say to "your posts are all useless" in a succinct and convincing manner unless they go into specifics. *shrug*

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

As a side note, Harvey has played a game with me before, and has seen my scumgame.

And which game was that?

Also:

Speaking of engagement, is this level of activity typical for Haley?

So about that.
My other head took a break from Mafia a few months ago. He was down to give it another go as a hydra since this is my first game in a while as well, but still doesn't feel like playing.
Guess he might read parts of the game if I ask him to, if there's anything specific y'all want I'll ask.

My other head is Xtoxm. He usually lurks in games - we thought maybe a hydra would help gain more interest to play but it still doesn't.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

My big issue with Harvey and Haley rn is WIM telling.

I also take it that my posting being contentless isn't an issue anymore

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

Does Xtoxm like playing one alignment over the other?

Yes - town, although he has not liked playing as either for a while

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

My big issue with Harvey and Haley rn is WIM telling. Haley being absent is probably the biggest red flag for me here, especially if I assume it's Anya based on Auro's previous interactions with them, and having played with them being absent scum.

Haley is always low pressure D1 and I don't think he's been playing mafia lately. I'm more focused on what Harvey is doing rather than literal absence.

pedit: VOTE: gamma emerald

Why is this pedit aligned to the right? I wasn't able to spot it easily.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

What do you like about it? Why aren't you voting there then?

I was not an active participant in the Enchant discussion (granted, a significant bit happened while I was asleep) and given I had mild interaction with him earlier plus my general thread presence otherwise it seemed like a good attack.

Why would I vote there? I know that any association argument would be inherently incorrect.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

@Harvey: what games of mine do you primarily rely on when meta’ing me?

It's condensed, I can't recall specific games - but the "meta" I'm using that you usually express greater nuance in reads, is that incorrect?

Enchant read

it's waffle-ish, but given that it's d1, that is whatevs.

I truly loathe his progression on Manatee, though. That has bothered me for a long time.

Why is my stance questionable but Enchant gets a pass because it's day 1?

Bolded refers to Gamma's read on Enchant, I believe.

I'm not saying you have to wall (in fact, please don't), but I guess I expected you to distill it down to a couple of points and nip it in the bud or something.

This feels reasonable

And what do you make out of that post being reasonable? Feels like a very arbitrary post to quote and mention reasonable.

Concur. I smell wagon shopping to avoid Enchant.

What would you suppose were/are the other wagons being shopped?

Your whole posts made no sense about liking it. If you liked just the parts about Enchant and Thor, then why not vote Enchant? I didn't expect you to take the position that my attack on you was reasonable as players rarely take that PoV.

I did not like all your posts re: Enchant and Thor. I specifically liked one point of yours that called out "awkward interactions between H+H and Enchant/Thor". And while I like that point, I know it is not true - since I'm town.

I like taking a "if I was in their spot would I feel that about Auro" perspective and evaluating from there.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

MM is a hell of a wildcard for me.
They've played pretty hard so far, in a way that I think should be identifiable via purity later in the game.
I think they've committed to the kind of momentum I wanted to see from them and if it drops off it's going to look agenda-driven.

I think their content looks, at surface level, like it's solvey enough that it could easily be coming from town.
That carries the caveat that I don't really know their scumrange, and can't comfortably say that what they are showing is far outside of a lot of players' scumranges.
They should also become progressively easier to read rather than the inverse so I've lost a lot of interest in wagoning them.

I agree with this - also, I get the feeling that there's something to Miss Midnight's detailed style of posting that makes it appear scummy. This is something I can relate to.

H+H kinda feel like they've been more genuine recently

My recent content was mostly just attacking you, right? I feel like I've been plenty receptive to people reaching out to me throughout the game, so I'm curious as to what changed recently.

Schadds electoral college mafia. I don't have any experience with Xtomx, but I do find the lack of posts and content from them upsetting. I have managed to get at least something readable out of you, after a bit of squeezing. And honestly it's like blood from a stone. I can't fall in my usual trap of tunneling into oblivion, though it's a little early in the game for it.

And I don't know why it should feel like blood from a stone. I said you could simply ask me any specific questions and I'd answer, right? I'm struggling to understand your perspective. I feel like I've been offering a lot of readable content. Also, I mentioned multiple times that Xtoxm will probably not be present and why, did you read that?

Penguin isn't catching votes because he's obvtown.

This is an interesting post (I didn't expect you'd have obvious townreads by this point). Do you have prior experience with Penguin?

You're never winning a 1v1 against Gamma, and your vote on him isn't exactly a good look when he's your closest competing wagon.

Can you help me see town!Gamma? His late content still doesn't seem impressive but is self-aware while also unbothered, and that's diminishing my scumread a bit.

im asking 4 patience in general. i know i havent carried my weight so far

Manatee, I think it's fine if you skip Miss Midnight content (sorry) and give us thoughts about other things.
If having specific topics would help, the wagons on Gamma and Enchant would be a good starting point.

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

A hydra is a hydra. While I can understand Xtomx is hesitant and unlikely to post they are still a player in this game. Your slot is the responsibility of both heads, and I get chewed out when I don't consider an entire hydra (even if I'm right).

Readable content should be organic, not forced. I'm not going to go through your ISO and interrogate every post because that would be pointless and forced. It would also potentially stall the game going back excessively instead of moving forward.

My slot is the responsibility of both heads - sure. Divided 99-1.

My content

is

organically readable, seemingly to everyone but you. You can't expect me to magically conjure content that you specifically find readable when I don't understand what would make it so.

Additionally, I don't know why you'd have to "interrogate me over every post" to gain readable content from me, like, can't we just engage/talk about stuff?

-Harvey

[Harvey and Haley]

nevermind I'm going back to bed

Were you typing up something? o.o

-Harvey