Micro 1029: 8-Ball (but with Wolves) Game Over

[Wisdom]

VOTE: momrangal

haai

[Wisdom]

v/la till Sunday

[Wisdom]

I think ill stay on momrangal

because shes the 8ball

because she and ali have done nothing to make me think town
Maybe Imaginality in that pool too
Not interested in current wagons

[Wisdom]

Actually VOTE: ali

[Wisdom]

I think I'm never the 8ball here, everyone but Imaginality knows me and doubt they think I'm limmable

Taly has decent chances of being it

[Wisdom]

Am I likelier the 8ball than I am wagoned-scum?

Are the two worlds mutually exlusive? (Could I be scum and 8ball)?

You dont feel like scum so yes

I dont think scum go for that route so early but if you flipped scum I could consider it

[Wisdom]

If

mastina

can see the light, so can you

Alisae <3

Is Ali town?

[Wisdom]

We'd know if Taly were the 8-ball, as the rules clearly say the 8-ball will flip as 8-ball if eliminated. And besides, whether or not the mod announces it, it'll be obvious by whether scum get a kill that night.

All of which is to say the "if you flipped scum I could consider it" seems more likely to me to come from scum talking to town than from town. Scum talking to town know the first part of the statement ("if you flip scum" can't occur so are more likely to give a careless consequence "I could consider it", compared with town who believe it's a genuine possibility to consider.

You're right, I don't consider Taly flipping scum a real possibility which is why I didn't run the simulation in my head and didn't realize he'd flip 8ball

[Wisdom]

Was there a typo here? I need you to clarify Wisdom.

No

[Wisdom]

Buddying me already?
Practically inviting me to revote you

[Wisdom]

Fine I don't wanna tunnel you like old times
Get on Ali and I'll consider townreading you

[Wisdom]

Taly and duck are town
Youre not helping me townread you

[Wisdom]

Duck explained his 32 later btw, it obviously wasn't serious

[Wisdom]

Like both of the posts you quoted are signs of town motivation

[Wisdom]

Uif Taly thought I could be 8ball, why vote the 8ball

He voted you in rvs and thought you could be it way later
What are you talking about

[Wisdom]

Even so, his motivation is right there in that post
He thought scum might join the wagon

[Wisdom]

The reason I point this out is because I read the bolded as though you knew I was 8ball. A potential slip. That's what I want clarified.

No, you misread. Imaginality was talking about the possibility of you being scum and 8ball, and that's what I was responding to

[Wisdom]

Mom is the most recent joindate with the least experience I've had with

Mom is an alt in case you didn't know, her actual join date is around mine

[Wisdom]

Taly probably misread but Imaginality's one feels like it could be scum motivated

[Wisdom]

Ducky town, the others probscum

[Wisdom]

Yeah I know townies get fixated on "scumslips" and push them forever, I've done it myself a couple times

I don't know, I kind of disliked his tone in pushing it, for example his appeal to people to judge whether I am inno or guilty for my statement felt a little manipulative

[Wisdom]

But again Imaginality is the one person I haven't played with in this playerlist so I could be disliking playstyle

[Wisdom]

So it's up to the rest of you whether you think that's because Taly is so obvtown, or because Wisdom is scum and knows Taly is town.

Like this is suggestive, it's like he's saying "Taly is not obvtown so I don't believe Wisdom" but he's putting it more subtly so it immediately rings manipulation bells for me

[Wisdom]

No elims are bad
Scum now have the info to change the 8ball into someone likely getting limd whereas it was a blind guess in pregame
Let's just flip Ali

[Wisdom]

Or Imaginality if you prefer
Mom id rather give one more day

[Wisdom]

Ali you wanna live?
Read my points about Imaginality and vote there

[Wisdom]

*shrug*
I told you, the only way I'm not liming you is if imaginality becomes a possibility

[Wisdom]

Imaginality's tone still feels manipulative to me

[Wisdom]

Whereas this push on me is a point against you, it fits the 'scum wanting to get players who are suspicious of them eliminated' motif.

Not how I'd have expected town to respond to what I said. My vote is staying on you.

Like this is trying to convince others that I am not town
He does not care to actually engage with me and figure if I am town

[Wisdom]

All I get from his post is "let's answer to Wisdom's points and try to discredit them/look good"
Especially the part where he includes the benefit of the doubt I gave him feels like it's just there to shade me

[Wisdom]

Yeah but that's me
Does anyone have experience with imaginality and can assure me he's like me?

[Wisdom]

i've missed wisdom but like, he's scary as scum and i don't see the imaginality stuff at all

People typically don't listen to me when I catch manipulative scum
It's like only I see it

[Wisdom]

Based off interactions or lack thereof, if Wisdom's scum I think the buddy is among:
Mom
Ali
the worst

Yeah this is interesting actually
I'm assuming Mom and Ali are there because they are the people I'm scumreading other than you
the worst is there because of "lack of interactions"? And if so why is there no, say, Hiraki, in here?

[Wisdom]

if I made a vote right now I feel like I would be coinflipping 50-50.
I need more information

Wis atm I think it's either you or him

Honestly you make me think you're just scum looking at a tvt and eating popcorn with such posts

[Wisdom]

Like tw also mentioned something similar but he didn't try to pass the belief that there HAS to be a scum between me and imaginality

Whereas you keep doing it

[Wisdom]

Fair, I was thinking only about how much I've interacted with Hiraki which is at all

[Wisdom]

I don't particularly care about convincing you
You're still who I want lim'd most

[Wisdom]

Ali warning you not to push her to decide between us too soon makes me think I'm the 8-ball and she's wanting to see if there's enough interest to get me eliminated over you while perfectly happy to see you go also.

That sounds farfetched, why indicate he's scumreading me more than you if you were the 8ball
Voting you is free, I literally asked him to do it or die

[Wisdom]

And 262 doesn't really feel manipulative
At least not the manipulative kind I'm talking about
He is directly asking me to take x action, he's not subtly trying to make me do it

[Wisdom]

Gun to head that reads like town voting me but it could be scum seeing an opportunity

It feels like the latter to me
You compared his style to me, do you think I'd ever switch off my deathtunelee so easily? Onto the person they're voting?

[Wisdom]

That just makes it worse for you then
I could see you incorrectly tunneling me because you don't know me and me just scumreading your playstyle, but you not tunneling me yet making posts that quite obviously appeal to people to scumread me is just scum behavior

[Wisdom]

what else was there to do on that front

You could have asked me why I see Taly as so obvtown
And even if you preferred to ask others there was a more direct way of asking. Something like "I don't think Taly is so town that it warrants Wisdom thinking like that. What do you guys think?"
What you did was not ask, you suggested that Taly is not obvtown so I must be scum

[Wisdom]

still think ali

Did you talk about Ali being scum somewhere other than your naked vote?

[Wisdom]

Sure

[Wisdom]

Walk me where you think Ali/Imaginality S/S is possible.

Theyre two of my three scumreads
But even disregarding that I dont see where you take issue
If Ali is town I'm asking him to go for my other scumread and convince me to vote there
If Ali is scum Im making him vote one of my other scumreads

[Wisdom]

Read your ISO the past 2 pages, doll.

How am I manipulative
I directly say what I think

[Wisdom]

One or both of Imaginality/Wisdom is scum.

there we go again

[Wisdom]

No elims are bad

True, but rushed pile ons onto shitty wagons out of desperation are worse. We should try to get an elimination here, but not getting an elimination is much less bad than normal.

Neither Ali nor Imaginality is a shitty wagon out of desperation, at least for me
Both have good chances of flipping red

[Wisdom]

Ali is now at E-1 btw if mod counts Taly's thing

[Wisdom]

Wisdom's attempt to make it a 1v1 started back here:

Actually here:

Taly probably misread but Imaginality's one feels like it could be scum motivated

[Wisdom]

Oh right, forgot tw was voting there

[Wisdom]

I just don't understand why scum-

Alisae

would vote

Wisdom

here.

The only town-motivated reason I can think for

Wisdom

to try and get

Imaginality V Alisae

going was to see if they were partners or if

Alisae

would take a bite out of

Imaginality

for survivalism.

Walk me where you think Ali/Imaginality S/S is possible.

Theyre two of my three scumreads
But even disregarding that I dont see where you take issue
If Ali is town

I'm asking him to go for my other scumread and convince me to vote there

If Ali is scum

Im making him vote one of my other scumreads

There's only 2 scum in this game. One of your scumreads must be incorrect.

Your assessments strike as odd to me because your trying to point

Alisae

towards going after and eliminating someone you ALREADY THINK is scum.

Not to figure out if there's a fallacy in your reads.

The threat that you want to eliminate

Alisae

:

Ali you wanna live?
Read my points about Imaginality and vote there

Followed by expecting them to vote there for their survival is largely a behavior I would associate to be scum. So your interaction with

Alisae

felt like a

"gotcha"

moment when they didn't vote

Imaginality

for you.

You just don't understand how I play

[Wisdom]

I'm going to bed, but I think I've thought as far as my bird brain will take me and I think I've given

Wisdom/Imaginality

enough to address to help me sort.

Honestly I don't feel like addressing anything because you just don't like my playstyle and find it scummy

[Wisdom]

Hiraki and Taly both seem town to me. the worst I have less of a read but gut says town.

Agreed with this but I'll include Bingle

Mom is still doing nothing and could easily be red
Between you and Ali I still prefer Ali

[Wisdom]

Your assessments strike as odd to me because your trying to point Alisae towards going after and eliminating someone you ALREADY THINK is scum. Not to figure out if there's a fallacy in your reads.

There, let's try again because I don't wanna be rude. I'll try to spell out my thoughts as much as possible.

I scumread Ali and Imaginality (individually)
Theres a big wagon on Ali
Theres a chance I'm wrong on Ali and I am missing out on liming Imaginality
Ali is online
I try to get Ali to convince me he is town and Imaginality would be a better vote
Ali interacting with me in real time might other than the above also make me more/less confident in whether hes scum

So yes Taly, asking him to do that was both to read him better, to have him help me read Imaginality if he is town, and in general to improve my reads, remove the fallacies and get the best lim possible

[Wisdom]

If you are town voting yourself makes zero sense
Especially if you happen to be the 8ball
You just take away the info of the 5th person on your wagon from us

But you're probably just scum so

[Wisdom]

Miserable and spiteful people don't say they are miserable and spiteful

You just want us to see you in that light

[Wisdom]

If you are town voting yourself makes zero sense
Especially if you happen to be the 8ball
You just take away the info of the 5th person on your wagon from us

But you're probably just scum so

Wait, so why would

Alisae

have his 8ball equity and be likely scum at once? Or is the 8ball just a very low possibility you're deliberating here?

what

Do I speak in chinese or something

[Wisdom]

I'm not deliberating any possibility, I was referring to Ali arguing he might be the 8ball
And I'm saying that it makes zero sense to selfvote as town and especially as 8ball so he's full of shit
Do you need a road map to every sentence I write?

[Wisdom]

2 hours 45 mins left guys and Ali needs two votes

[Wisdom]

Unofficial VC

3 Alisae (Wisdom, Hiraki, imaginality)
2 imaginality (Bingle, the worst)
2 Wisdom (Taly, Alisae)
1 the worst (Momrangal)

5 to elim

(expired on 2021-09-23 12:19:23)

[Wisdom]

Or I can switch to imaginality if 2 more show up who want to

[Wisdom]

VOTE: Ali

[Wisdom]

Also guys vote for quick night
Lets not wait for 48 hours every time just for an 8ball choice

[Wisdom]

Morning Tweet town
House a little townier than Ali though I'm not entirely convinced
Taly and duck remain town

VOTE: imaginality

[Wisdom]

VOTE: ali

I don’t really trust this sudden shift to Wis, makes me worried he’s an 8 ball, tbh.

Ali is right that this justification for this vote is scummy tbh

[Wisdom]

Since an elimination was not reached in time, we can never have a solid idea of who was the D1 8ball, nor have clarity of Alisae's slot. It was highly likely that Alisae would be eliminated, so for Alisae to only go after another wagon at the opportunity to eliminate a scumread, I don't think self-voting is a negative.

To explain my pov better; Ali uses ate a lot. When I see him in hysterics doing antitown things my first thought immediately goes to him being scum trying to do crazy things to get townread for it.
As for the actual point, selfhammering when you think you might be 8ball and your lim gives scum a nk is certainly a negative. Not only that, but if you're 8ball scum really want to lim you so they'll be on the wagon or otherwise push for it to happen. You giving them one of the votes they need detracts from the information your lim is going to give.
The only question here is if Ali genuinely became that frustrated and disregarded all that or it was just scum theatrics

[Wisdom]

No elims are bad
Scum now have the info to change the 8ball into someone likely getting limd whereas it was a blind guess in pregame
Let's just flip Ali

Please tell me you're not still voting my slot on d2 after making this post on d1...

*goes to check*

Why would I not? Yes, your slot is way more likely to be 8ball now than it was D1, which is why I really wanted it gone D1. That does not change my scumread there.

[Wisdom]

If you are town voting yourself makes zero sense
Especially if you happen to be the 8ball
You just take away the info of the 5th person on your wagon from us

But you're probably just scum so

Scum self-hammers

Demoralized town self-votes.

You're better than this.

Except it was not a hammer and Ive seen scum Ali doing crazy ate stuff before

[Wisdom]

I think I'd drop the Mom & Bingle down a tier, and color the rest light green.

Sell me Imaginality town

[Wisdom]

My point is that there really isn’t mislim bait in this list, so I could easily see scum picking someone who would normally be hard to eliminate as the day 1 8-ball. And the way EOD happened, it looked like could well have been wisdom.

So scum pick me as 8ball and don't care about me until eod?
You could argue Imaginality did but I don't see you pushing him

[Wisdom]

I'm not seeing what Wisdom is seeing about imaginality's push on him being scummy (page 10, he said it twice now). Maybe it's a little hyper-focused and tunnely, but I'm not sure what the obvious scum motivation is for that, reads a bit more like town that starts to conf bias no? "Manipulative" is strong

Its the tone. It felt more like he wanted to poison people's minds rather than read me.

[Wisdom]

265 is the plot twist of the century LMAO WHAT. There's no way imaginality as scum predetermined that move, the positioning on Wisdom was so steadfast, and now they're helping Wisdom's reads. Nuts. Towny, I think. I think it's a misread of Ali though

Disagree
Scum "de-tunnel" way more easily because they are moved by opportunism
Town with a steadfast scumread is not very likely to reconsider to the point they sheep their scumread

[Wisdom]

Now, to be completely fair -- I'm not sure if there was scum motivation to vote Ali or not. It seemed like the day was about to end. So maybe someone who is more familiar with D1 times could tell me if it seemed like Ali could die after that Bingle vote, or if it was total vanity by Bingle.

It was just hours left, I could definitely see it as town wanting to get a lim like I was asking

But the "wisdom 8ball" that accompanies it I dont like

[Wisdom]

Oh I also think Wisdom's reaction to Ali's self vote and stuff is a misread possibly by scum who wants Ali dead

Kind of same with Wisdom's read on imagine, i don't agree at all

Does that make wisdom scum by default, i guess not though

I'm just extra paranoid of manipulation
In both cases you see the surface (Ali being frustrated town, Imaginality being tunneling town) but I see possible scum plays
Especially in Ali's case because I know him to do such stuff as scum

[Wisdom]

seemed like there was no good reason for scum to do it.

Eh
The reason might be he did not think the 1v1 with me will help them so he decided to try to placate me by sheeping instead
But now that I'm thinking about it youre right that in my experience this type of scum will usually continue the 1v1 for much longer

Fine, let's go here instead

VOTE: bingle

[Wisdom]

I feel miserable and spiteful right now so I don't even care and that information isn't relevant anyways and no one is going to let my elim not happen that just doesn't make sense.

Like

Isnt frustrated town Ali a little self-conscious here
"I am miserable and spiteful so I dont care about my selfvote hurting town"

I cant help but feel that this is how he wants us to see it and hes annoyed that I don't

[Wisdom]

Considering there is no nk unless scum gets the 8ball eliminated, trying to shove a lim through is ++scum.

No lim basically just extends the deadline.

Not on D1. It also allows scum to calibrate their pregame guess using actual data from the game.

[Wisdom]

If you are town voting yourself makes zero sense
Especially if you happen to be the 8ball
You just take away the info of the 5th person on your wagon from us

But you're probably just scum so

Scum self-hammers

Demoralized town self-votes.

You're better than this.

Except it was not a hammer

EXACTLY MY POINT

Your point apparently is to cut my post in half and dodge what I'm actually saying entirely

[Wisdom]

Again, I've seen scum Ali pull similar stuff. It's not an "obviously demoralized town self-vote" to me (which btw, Ali allegedly thought is a self-hammer, so according to your 595 he should be scum for it?), and I was not about to let Ali get away with ate'ing the town

What is the newb part in all this?

[Wisdom]

Sounds like you concede your case

[Wisdom]

kay gl with that

[Wisdom]

If hes scum, it was on purpose. Why would he selfhammer

@bingle

[Wisdom]

kay gl with that

Right? Precisely why you're not 8-ball.

I dont think im 8ball either
Not relevant

[Wisdom]

I don't recall anyone using that excuse today

If youre referring to Bingle's thing yesterday I agreed it was terrible

[Wisdom]

Bingle put Ali at e-1, he couldn't hammer

[Wisdom]

And i dont think i was at e-1

[Wisdom]

If hes scum, it was on purpose. Why would he selfhammer

@bingle

Im not sure what the question is. Why would scum Ali self hammer? Frustration. Why would town Ali self hammer? Frustration.

Why would town Ali fake a self hammer? E probably wouldn’t, but I don’t really think it was faked.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen Ali self hammer as an information denial tool.

You missed the one im actually supporting, that he was scum faking it

[Wisdom]

To word this better;

I was saying that he either was frustrated town or gambiting scum. I dont see the merit in selfhammering as scum, especially when liming another person grants your team a nk

[Wisdom]

I can't tell if Wisdom's avoiding me or thinks he has better things to do than dissuade me from his wagon and House townread.

I answered you, don't remember seeing any other post directed to me

[Wisdom]

When I saw the player list, I was really hoping I'd be able to obvtown myself to Wisdom and sheep him to victory.

Then I read the game and got sad in the pants.

You certainly don't feel like you want to obvtown yourself to me

[Wisdom]

How do you read House's entrance?

A little townier than Ali which is why Im giving him a chance but the way hes treating me does not really match town House

[Wisdom]

When I saw the player list, I was really hoping I'd be able to obvtown myself to Wisdom and sheep him to victory.

Then I read the game and got sad in the pants.

You certainly don't feel like you want to obvtown yourself to me

Read my entrance. I DID, when I joined.

I don't care what you did what you joined.
Why are you still acting like youre scumreading me here when you should know better?

[Wisdom]

You replaced my scumread. You know how I feel about my scumreads. You cant just expect me to throw it away because its you. Even the fact I unvoted and gave you space should be appreciated here

[Wisdom]

As for the reasons thing that's just me being less lazy than I used to
You know thats not ai

[Wisdom]

Are you playing differently from usual, Wisdom?

Not particularly
But I havent played in two years so maybe

[Wisdom]

See House
Morning Tweet doesnt know me and scumreads my playstyle as it always happens with new people
You dont have that excuse

[Wisdom]

As for the reasons thing that's just me being less lazy than I used to
You know thats not ai

No I don't.

That's a radical playstyle change.

To be clear, that's not why I scumread you. As I've said before, the times they are a changing.

Turning a 1v1 into voting WITH your 1v1 against me?

Something hinky is going on, there.

It's radical that I bother to explain some things a little more? Does that change my overall playstyle? It's hard to accept you actually believe this

I don't understand what you mean with the 1v1 thing. If you mean with Imaginality, I was voting Ali already when it happened, there was no "turning"
If you mean with you, I never 1v1'd you, I thought you were kind of townier than Ali and that I would be able to read you better than I can Ali so I gave you space and focused on the rest of my reads
It does not feel like you want to understand my point of view here

[Wisdom]

And me being the leading wagon on d2 after Ali was the leading wagon on d1 and you not even considering the possibility I'm the 8-ball?

C'mon, man.

I damned well know my slot is being set up for mislim. How do you think that makes you look from my perspective?

I already answered this as well. Yes, if you are town, I agree that you are quite likely the 8ball here. But I do not know you are town and I had to push your slot because I thought Ali is scum. Surely this is not hard to grasp.

[Wisdom]

I don't follow the Bingle vote

The points against Bingle are not super good but poe right now suggests Bingle + Mom
It still won't surprise me a bit if House or Imaginality flip red but I can see the town points for both and accept them as town
Morning Tweet, you and duck are locktown for me
I wish Mom actually played so I had a better read there but yeah

[Wisdom]

It more or less feels like Wisdom needs his scumreads to go down in order to win,

It feels correctly then. That's how I play.

[Wisdom]

I'm not sure there was a real reason for Bingle to force a vote on Ali (Save for town voting at deadline to get an elim, perhaps). I still haven't thought of an answer to that

There is zero incentive for town to force an elimination, was no elimination = no nk.

I don't buy that as an excuse at all.

For the upteenth time
No elim on D1 = Scum change the 8ball from a random guess to someone who's likely getting lim'd
I don't understand how you fail to grasp that while you're positing that you're the 8ball today

[Wisdom]

it feels like he can't change his reads on imagine/Ali, he has consistently kept both on the table and I'm not sure there's been anything that clues me in that he's genuinely trying to read them

When I think I have caught scum the only way to make me reconsider is for someone else, not the person I am tunneling, to point out reasons I am wrong. Like you did with Imaginality and made me think I could be wrong. It's hard for me to listen to for example Imaginality defend himself and go "okay you might be town" because all I see is scum trying to manipulate me into thinking that.

Therefore you are basically scumreading me for my tunnels, which are my defining trait.

[Wisdom]

Btw relevant to your discussion about Bingle;

In the other instance this setup has been run, he was a strong opposer of No-Elimination and commented a lot about how town should not do it in postgame as well.
If anything, his stance with regards to no elimination in this game is mellow compared to that. See 295 and 307 for instance.

[Wisdom]

Also I know you're around, House. I can only take you not talking to me as you waiting and hoping I get hammered.

[Wisdom]

I don't know what an objectively bad elimination is, especially on D1 where you have no info and the 8ball is a random guess

It doesnt make much sense to me that you were against this idea given your statements in that game

[Wisdom]

gg

[Wisdom]

I havent been mislim'd in ages I believe, this game serves as shock that either the site meta is less forgiving towards my playstyle now or I am rusty and don't actually play like I used to

[Wisdom]

yep