Newbie 2079 | Open House | Game Over!!!

[MargotRosa]

Alright noobs. Let's murder some scum

[MargotRosa]

Was putting a reads list together before I came in the thread, wrote at the top of the doc "snake guy is scummy af" without realising I am now the snake guy. Alas, I am Town, and clearly have bad reads on first impression

It is currently 2am where I am, so I'm going to try and get some sleep and remake the reads list in the morning

[MargotRosa]

Will finish reads list tonight. I just got to the bottom of page 5, for my own future reference. These are notes I made while reading through the thread.

CheekyTeeky:

I find RQS way scummier than RVS. Random votes actually get content generating. Random questions just boosts up the post count on the early pages and ends up stalling game progress more than it generates reads. But progressed quickly to RVS, so never mind.

DaTacoX:

Jumped in with nothing post.

Prism:

Also came in to post nothing. Had reservations about random voting, which would be normal for newbs, but weird out of the gate from an SE, especially to comment that they had no reads 10. Reads more like they’re trying to look busy to Town without actually doing anything.
A lot of over justification, and grasping at straws to FoS, but seems way more like they’re trying to get someone else to start a wagon so they don’t look suss by starting wagons on a bunch of Townies. 40
56 does not read like a Town post, and ISO thus far has been chock full of psots that do very little except encourage other players to start a vote on someone else. Thus far, they are my clearest scum read

RH9:

Seemed suspect of RVS, but is a newb slot, so that’s totally fair. Also, as a note, if you’re voting to create pressure, or to get a reaction, don’t say that you’re trying to get a reaction. By saying that, the other player will know that your heart isn’t in the vote, and will know there was no pressure to begin with. Wrt PR hunting, it’s hard to say. I couldn’t find in the setup info, but is the scum PT open during the day? If so, it could indicate a conversation they had had in that thread that RH9 is TMIing in the main chat.

Flow trap:

Find it amusing that they started aggressively questioning Prism because of their aggressive questioning. 50 and 105 are Townie on vibes

Connordragon07:

104 is twigging my spider senses a bit. I don’t like posts that are that large, but have very little to say when all is said and done. Certainly seem appreciative of the PR hunt

Camel:

Town on vibes. 62 is very sweet, and very newb Townie.

[MargotRosa]

Will park my vote here until I get back

VOTE: Prism

[MargotRosa]

Also, full disclosure, I think I thought my slot was scum entirely because of the sibilance lol

[MargotRosa]

Sorry I've been out of it. Currently jumping between Diablo 2 and Political Economy readings

[MargotRosa]

To be fair, I like how while nobody exactly townreads me, nobody completely scumreads me either. The reasoning provided by MargotRosa has convinced me to VOTE: Prism.

The crux of their case seems to be that I want to tag along to other people's (wrong) pushes so that as scum I can avoid the negatives that comes pushing people, and thus avoid pushing people myself. Rosa only comments up to my post 56, but they read to at least 105.

Do you find my distillation an accurate description, and do you believe it to be true?

That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that you are trying to look busy, and your votes up until that point read as pretty baseless, and transparent attempts to justify voting for someone when coming up with reads on other players is proving a bit difficult

To me, that reads as Scum. I feel like Town would spend longer trying to adequately justify their serious votes

[MargotRosa]

Vote is staying put for now

[MargotRosa]

...Does it phase no one except myself and flow trap that MargotRosa, when challenged, clarified that my "votes up until that point read as pretty baseless" where at that point I had placed no vote? What votes are they reading?

I apologise. I was going off my notes, and I realise my notes were written in a way that suggest you had been voting, when in actual fact you had not, but were .ainly just FoSing. That had made me think scum more than the alternative, because it felt like you were waiting for someone to jump on your suspicion so it couldn't be traced back to you

[MargotRosa]

I'm also out for the rest of the day, my apologies. Partner is in a bad way, and I'm making them a cake/taking some time to hang out with them while they recover. Will take a good look when I get back home

[MargotRosa]

Yeah. Last couple days have been a combo of ADHD and minor personal crises. Looking forward to coming back tonight x

[MargotRosa]

Can someone please explain the RegRider wagon to me please?

[MargotRosa]

Don't like Prism, but I don't like the push on RegRider more

VOTE: Flow

[MargotRosa]

Wait, what exactly did flow trap do, other then starting a bandwagon on RegRider, then voting Connordragon07, then after MargotRosa voted them, voted her? Did I miss anything? I'm worried that I missed something worse that they did. Wait, did flow trap vote CheekyTeeky, at one point?

The other vote they cast was what I imagine was an RVS on you at the top of the game. Easiest way to check is by clicking the big ISO letters next to a player's name on their posts in a game, and it will bring up every psot they've made in that game isolated, on one convenient page

[MargotRosa]

I want it on record that I hate this Reg wagon

[MargotRosa]

If they flip red, I'll gladly eat my hat, but I strongly suspect there will be no hat eating

[MargotRosa]

VOTE: Regrider

Also hate that this vote was made without pointing out that this puts Reg one vote away from elimination

[MargotRosa]

I don't know why I thought it was 4 to elim d1. Apologies. I retract my hate

[MargotRosa]

Now that my personal dramas are sorted, I'm going to make an actual proper read list

[MargotRosa]

Might be a while, juggling a couple of jobs at once. Could get behind a Connor vote, but want to read through everything first to make sure. We can't really afford to do snap eliminations with two scum still alive d2.

[MargotRosa]

If I was parking my vote, it would still be on FlowTrap

[MargotRosa]

I'm sorry this is taking so long. I spent the last day and a half reconnecting with partner and putting together a lighting rig for a shoot I'm doing. Will get to it after tonight's DnD session (so like 5 hours from now)

[MargotRosa]

So there is obviously scum on the Reg wagon.

[MargotRosa]

Votecount 1.Eliminate

RegRider(5)

~ DaTacoX(45), camelCasedSnivy(98), Connordragon07(30), CheekyTeeky(50) Prism(76) --- HAMMER

[MargotRosa]

To be fair, I'm somewhat confused as to why Mafia chose to target DaTacoX. I'm also sad that we lost two Vanilla Townies. I think that voting flow trap may seem like a good idea, because they started the bandwagon on RegRider. However, flow trap could be Town.

This honestly reads a little TMI-ey. I don't understand why this would cause anyone to be confused about DaTacoX getting eliminated, and it seems a little too awkward except as a prepared fake read.

[MargotRosa]

Wait, what did camelCasedSnivy and me do, which makes us seem a Mafia team together? By the way, if I really was Mafia, I wouldn't have targeted DaTacoX, for sure. Prism's, by the far, one of the most towny players, and their reads are probably the most accurate. Remember how they townread DaTacoX and he ended up being a Vanilla Town. I would say that Prism seems like a Town Leader to me, so I'm follow them. Anyways, I actually thought that DaTacoX was Mafia, until I realised that he was Vanilla Town, who had followed flow trap's bandwagon on RegRider. Sorry, DaTacoX, by the way, if you are reading this!

Why does a non-conf Town who has established themselves as Town leader make someone conf Town?

[MargotRosa]

I honestly think that taking someone who is confident and makes sense at their word just because they are confident and make sense is a good way to lose the game quickly.

Like, if I was in RH9's shoes, and was confused why DaTacoX was killed and the obviously Townie Prism wasn't killed, that would make me more likely scum read Prism, if only because the only explanation that makes sense in that universe is that Prism is actually a Scum who wouldn't self-elimination (for obvious reasons).

For the record, reading over the last few posts of d1, I am starting to warm up to the idea of Town Prism, still unsure on the FlowTrap/Catboi slot, and really don't like RH9 who seems less Town every post they make.

Cheeky and Connor currently null, with Cheeky more Town, and Connor more Scum purely on vibes

[MargotRosa]

And I completely forgot Camel was playing lol

[MargotRosa]

Anyway, my suspicion on flow, Connor and Cheeky are a bit higher and I trust Prism a little bit more now.

I agree with this (except Cheeky I think. Idk, I think I'm thrown by Prism's avatar change, but seemed to get a positive vibe from both).

To be fair, I'm somewhat confused as to why Mafia chose to target DaTacoX.

I'm also sad that we lost two Vanilla Townies.

I think that voting flow trap may seem like a good idea, because they started the bandwagon on RegRider. However, flow trap could be Town.

I don't know what but something about that sentence makes me increase my suspicion on RH9.

Imo, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of that post to be suspicious about

I completely forgot about this game and I have to go right after this post so if someone could catch me up thatd be great

…or I could just read it in 2 hours when I'm not busy

Sigh...

Idk. Like, reads seem Townie enough, but hard to say when you're so in and out. Also Null

[MargotRosa]

VOTE: RH9

[MargotRosa]

Don't like Prism, but I don't like the push on RegRider more

VOTE: Flow

I want it on record that I hate this Reg wagon

I don't know why I thought it was 4 to elim d1. Apologies. I retract my hate

I'd also like some clarification: You never actually expressed any sort of read on RegRider, but expressed a strong dislike for the wagon on him. Why is that? Further, why did you hate it when you thought it was hammered early, only to retract that feeling when it turned out it wasn't?

I made clear that I didn't understand the Reg wagon in 401 and wanted clarification of where it had come from, because something seemed off. Given that noone could give me an adequate explanation of why it had happened, I decided to distrust it.

I didn't hate someone for hammering early. I hated that I thought someone was being coy about it being e-1 so that someone could hammer absent-mindedly, or alternatively hammer intentionally but claim after the fact that they didn't do it on purpose. It was either scummy, or gave a lot of room for scum to do something scummy. I retracted it, because it wasn't e-1, and obviously these points didn't apply.

I do think that there is scum on the wagon, and I think they sit somewhere in my null reads. I went through everything since sunrise, however, and RH9 seemed to me like a more convincing Scum read.

As for Prism, it's a few different things. I think their posts leading up to nightfall all have a more distinctive Town vibe than had been given off otherwise. Also, statistically, Scum is significantly more likely to hammer Scum than Town.

[MargotRosa]

Ok, going to do a quick once over. Haven't slept in 3 days. Let's see how this goes

[MargotRosa]

If you want to sort me, you aren't going to do it by tunneling me with irritating questions which force me to defend myself. You're better off giving me space and assessing my intent overall otherwise we will end up 1v1ing all day and if both town will increase the chances of scum hiding in the shadows.

This is the Towniest possible response to the tunneling to be honest. I dig Cheeky

[MargotRosa]

I made clear that I didn't understand the Reg wagon in 401 and wanted clarification of where it had come from, because something seemed off. Given that noone could give me an adequate explanation of why it had happened, I decided to distrust it.

Then I'm not sure why you "retracted" your hate for the wagon, then, without being given so much as an explanation.

I didn't retract my hate for the wagon. I retracted my hate for the fact that Cheeky didn't mention it was e-1, because it wasn't e-1, and the thing I mentioned hating didn't happen. I always hated the wagon

[MargotRosa]

I'd also like some clarification: You never actually expressed any sort of read on RegRider, but expressed a strong dislike for the wagon on him. Why is that? Further, why did you hate it when you thought it was hammered early, only to retract that feeling when it turned out it wasn't?

I made clear that I didn't understand the Reg wagon in 401 and wanted clarification of where it had come from, because something seemed off. Given that noone could give me an adequate explanation of why it had happened, I decided to distrust it.

I could track through all of this, but the shortest question I have is just: why was your vote on flow trap given all of this? Flow was the first vote on the wagon but then got off by the time you voted him, and was not on when you thought it was close to elimination.[/quote]

Because that is classic scum tactics. Start a wagon on Town, get off with enough time to assert innocence, hey presto, you've gotten away with murder.

[MargotRosa]

Everyone is focussing very hard on the fact that I said there was scum on the wagon, which was a one off post I made while stream of consciousnessing my way back into a Mafia game.

[MargotRosa]

Lord, alright, give me a minute to respond to the wagon, I wasn't anticipating it at all. Am properly rested, so can give this more of a go

[MargotRosa]

I made clear that I didn't understand the Reg wagon in 401 and wanted clarification of where it had come from, because something seemed off. Given that noone could give me an adequate explanation of why it had happened, I decided to distrust it.

Then I'm not sure why you "retracted" your hate for the wagon, then, without being given so much as an explanation.

I didn't retract my hate for the wagon. I retracted my hate for the fact that Cheeky didn't mention it was e-1, because it wasn't e-1, and the thing I mentioned hating didn't happen. I always hated the wagon

I don't know why I thought it was 4 to elim d1. Apologies. I retract my hate

You, again, appear to be contradicting your own words. Your actions mostly look like retroactive justification that doesn't hold water as any sort of believable thought process. The fact that you never even stated a read on Reg looks like you were positioning yourself against the wagon to look good later then blame others, and not that you had any sort of legitimate townread of RegRider. You can call your thoughts "stream of consciousness" but that doesn't absolve you from having to back them up at all and the fact that you continue to try to minimize this rather than produce any follow through suggests to me it's not a real thought.

This is actually driving me insane. I'll go through this one step at a time.

The post that is getting everyone riled up is the following one:

I don't know why I thought it was 4 to elim d1. Apologies. I retract my hate

I can only assume this is because the general consensus is that they think the hate being retracted is that referred to by the following:

I want it on record that I hate this Reg wagon

I want it to be clear, at no point did I ever retarct the hate on this. I maybe hated it slightly less in that the race to wagon down the slot wasn't quite as hurried as it initially looked, but I always hated it.

The hate being retracted is the one referred to in the following:

VOTE: Regrider

Also hate that this vote was made without pointing out that this puts Reg one vote away from elimination

I tried rereading through that page, to work out whether or not it was confusing, but I don't see how the mistake could be made. The only posts I could be responding to are the following two between my last post and the restraction:

It takes 5 to elim. That would put RegRider at 3

VOTE: Regrider

Also hate that this vote was made without pointing out that this puts Reg one vote away from elimination

You do realize its two not one… right?

The second of which directly quotes the latter comment.

I'm honestly not sure if I'm being trolled, if you are genuinely confused, or if you are trying to stir up a storm around my conduct based on an intentional misunderstanding. I don't see what there isn't to get, or how you could interpret these posts as retracting my dislike of the wagon on RegRider, as opposed to hating Cheeky's vote for doing something that it didn't do

[MargotRosa]

I understand that my gameplay has not been great this game, and if you want to kick me out, go for it. It's been a rough one, and a bit of an emotional roller coaster of a couple of weeks, but I'm back now

[MargotRosa]

Rereading through everything, and almost wish I could scumread cat, just so my brain could make sense of the confusion, but the more you post, and I forget Flow, the Townier you seem.

Honestly, the scummiest thing you've done is this whole confusion over this thing, which I think is really obvious, but if noone else sees that, maybe it is far more opaque than I think it is. I think a lot of your ISO has a lot of questions, and not many conclusions, but they are very good questions, so you can have a Town read and I'll go have a cry somewhere

[MargotRosa]

Will finish reads list tonight. I just got to the bottom of page 5, for my own future reference. These are notes I made while reading through the thread.

CheekyTeeky:

I find RQS way scummier than RVS. Random votes actually get content generating. Random questions just boosts up the post count on the early pages and ends up stalling game progress more than it generates reads. But progressed quickly to RVS, so never mind.

DaTacoX:

Jumped in with nothing post.

Prism:

Also came in to post nothing. Had reservations about random voting, which would be normal for newbs, but weird out of the gate from an SE, especially to comment that they had no reads 10. Reads more like they’re trying to look busy to Town without actually doing anything.
A lot of over justification, and grasping at straws to FoS, but seems way more like they’re trying to get someone else to start a wagon so they don’t look suss by starting wagons on a bunch of Townies. 40
56 does not read like a Town post, and ISO thus far has been chock full of psots that do very little except encourage other players to start a vote on someone else. Thus far, they are my clearest scum read

RH9:

Seemed suspect of RVS, but is a newb slot, so that’s totally fair. Also, as a note, if you’re voting to create pressure, or to get a reaction, don’t say that you’re trying to get a reaction. By saying that, the other player will know that your heart isn’t in the vote, and will know there was no pressure to begin with. Wrt PR hunting, it’s hard to say. I couldn’t find in the setup info, but is the scum PT open during the day? If so, it could indicate a conversation they had had in that thread that RH9 is TMIing in the main chat.

Flow trap:

Find it amusing that they started aggressively questioning Prism because of their aggressive questioning. 50 and 105 are Townie on vibes

Connordragon07:

104 is twigging my spider senses a bit. I don’t like posts that are that large, but have very little to say when all is said and done. Certainly seem appreciative of the PR hunt

Camel:

Town on vibes. 62 is very sweet, and very newb Townie.

Rereading this entrance post I noticed that it's all shade >.> I think I was seduced by the Prism vote.
Connor/Margot not SvS.

This is a really weird backtrack, especially given what had transpired in the game up until that point. To characterise my read list as "all shade" is very disingenuous. I had a bunch of null reads on people who had contributed very little, a null on you because the one read I had amounted to nothing a few posts later, a soft town read on Camel and Flow, and only one legitimate scum read (Prism), with some observations on other slots.

Wait, what exactly did flow trap do, other then starting a bandwagon on RegRider, then voting Connordragon07, then after MargotRosa voted them, voted her? Did I miss anything? I'm worried that I missed something worse that they did. Wait, did flow trap vote CheekyTeeky, at one point?

The other vote they cast was what I imagine was an RVS on you at the top of the game. Easiest way to check is by clicking the big ISO letters next to a player's name on their posts in a game, and it will bring up every psot they've made in that game isolated, on one convenient page

Don't like Prism, but I don't like the push on RegRider more

VOTE: Flow

Margot/Prism
Margot/Flow (catboi)
Margot/RH9
All not SvS

+ former Margot/Connor and obv Margot/me not SvS means either Margot is scum with exactly camel or more likely Margot is not scum.

I know this is probably stupid of me, but a lot of these don't make sense to me? I mean, I'm not scum, but I don't understand your reasoning, if you are saying these SvS pairings are impossible. Like, if I were in your shoes, I would as likely as not assume I was in league with one of these three and was trying to create space between myself and one of these slots.

To be clear, I'm not scum, but I don't get how you're justifying your reads on me at all?

[MargotRosa]

Margot how hard were you scumreading Flow before cat repped in?

Mostly on a hunch which rested a lot of its weight on the wagon. Since catboi stepped in I've been vacillating, but I think probably more likely town. At the moment I really don't like RH9, and that's my safest bet, especially with pushes like VOTE: 719 and VOTE: 720 being either horrifically worded, or just stepping us through reasons for scum reading people as they are coming up with them

[MargotRosa]

Do not eliminate

[MargotRosa]

I made a post to copy and paste into the thread for the sake of speed, and I missed day break anyway :/

[MargotRosa]

I am jailkeeper.

I JKed RH9 last night to make sure something ridiculous wasn't going on (ie. RH9 was tracker) and the lack of a kill last night indicates I was right.

I JKed Prism n1, because I thought that Prism was most likely to be targeted d1. (I crumbed that I would do this in post 361.)

n2 is complicated, because I changed my strat after I found out connor was Scum, and in so doing ruined my planned crumbs (in which, unless I crumbed otherwise, whoever I parked on at the end of the day was who I jailed).

Side note: I cannot believe that noone made anything of the fact that I alone had parked my vote on the claimed investigative at the end of d2. I honestly thought at the time that this was too obvious a tell that I was doing something odd, and that I wanted people to pay attention to it. If you had noticed, then kudos, but given that noone stalled d3 long enough to find out about it, I doubt it.

I had started to put things together in my head during d2 (and tried to point this out in post 590) because I felt like the post looked like someone affecting surprise at an elimination for precisely the situation I was worried I was finding myself in, in which I could not predict whatsoever who scum was targetting for night kill, and therefore could not properly protect whoever needed protecting. I wasn't sure though, especially given that JK/Tracker was a valid pairing, and it was possible they had misrepresented their role as Cop rather than Tracker (given that the former is potentially stronger). If they were holding to the Cop thing though, they must be a Mafia Goon (because otherwise it's an instant loss, with 2 PRs in every Tracker setup).

Was going to JK RH9 n2, which I had crumbed, but didn't.

In my head, I justified wanting to JK them because, in doing so, if they gave any read, it was clear that they were not a tracker (because JK prevents them from tracking), and if there was no kill, I had some juicy info to bring to Town (either they were targetted, or they were scum, and I would find out very quickly by getting them to clarify what their role was as soon as dawn broke.

I changed my mind, and decided to JK Prism when I discovered we had eliminated Scum d2. This was a bad call, which I will absolutely wear in the post game, but let's put that aside for a minute. In my head, I justified changing because of the following:
a) It was still possible that RH9 was misrepresenting being a Tracker, rather than a Cop. Therefore, we would have more info come the morning based on RH9's data if someone was killed
b) I still wanted to clear Prism. In my head, the prime suspects were, in order, RH9, catboi, Prism. We had two nights before elo.Therefore, by JKing Prism, if someone dies, they aren't scum. In addition, I doubted that scum who doesn't kill Prism n1 tries to target Prism n2.

Therefore, my overthinking meant that I figured I got more info from JKing Prism n2 than RH9. Which is true, but we also got a way more volatile game state.

When I logged on to see d3 had started and ended, I realised I'd made a bad call, because the whole play relied on getting to spell everything out d3, and I hadn't gotten the opportunity to say anything. Therefore, I finally made good on my d2 crumb and JKed RH9.

I did this because it achieved two things:

1 - If someone else got killed, RH9 wasn't scum. There was still a very unlikely possibility in my head that they might have been tracker and misunderstood the role PM, in which case we were a PR pair. THis would have made life pretty easy, because it would have had to be Cheeky, and it was just that she didn't move one night, or else RH9 had been roleblocked the night that Cheeky had been investigated. I also thought it basically impossible that a scum who isn't RH9 targets RH9 n3 but doesn't target RH9 n2. At any rate, the possibility of that happening was so remote, that the chance of that happening, and also of RH9 claiming investigative

2 - Noone got killed, which meant everyone would have hopefully been confused enough to put a stop to a fast d4, thereby giving me time to talk it all out.


Ask yourselves, honestly, does anything RH9 says he has done make any sense at all? Why on Earth does he investigate Taco n1? Why on Earth does he investigate Cheeky instead of me n2, when I am the only slot he has voted for all game?

The answer is that it makes zero sense. I am the jail keeper. RH9 is scum.

[MargotRosa]

I typed this in a manic panic when I saw what happened d3, so I hope the formatting is ok, and that everything makes sense

[MargotRosa]

You were roleblocked. There are two possibilities.

1) You are scum, and you weren't able to kill bc you were jailed
2) You are Town, pretending to be cop (or actually Tracker?) , and you've kept the ruse up until d4 (incredibly unlikely)

VOTE: RH9

[MargotRosa]

Sorry, but if I am scum, I don't leave RH9 alive for d3, and I definitely kill RH9 for d4. In what universe does RH9 live past d2???

[MargotRosa]

Does anything that scum have done in this game make any sense coming from my slot? Literally ever??

[MargotRosa]

Quite aside from anything else, in what universe do I put myself in a position where I have to convince you that a slot claiming a PR for two days who wasn't CCd at any point is scum, rather than nking RH9, and just trying to convince Cheeky that Prism is scum rather than me??

[MargotRosa]

I was trying to confirm my townreads. I had no scumreads, remember. I would live past d2 if the only person who tried to get me eliminated was Mafia.

My biggest worry so far is that I townread both CheekyTeeky and Prism. Self-voting is like so scummy and cross-voting is not right to me either. I would have wanted to vote camelCasedSnivy to see if CheekyTeeky is right about them being on the scum team, but then that would get me eliminated Day 3, and I don't want to get eliminated or NKed, as a matter of fact. So I'll just wait for somebody else to vote before voting.

...why do you find cheeky's arguments for camel being scum convincing?

I just found it that if camelCasedSnivy or me both flip Town, CheekyTeeky's going to lose credibility but so would MargotRosa if I flip Town.

You have expressed a townread on cheekyteeky and a willingness to follow her and I'm not sure I understand why.

To be fair, the main problem for me is that CheekyTeeky's reaction to my Day 1 activities was so towny that the only thing she did to dampen this feeling is stating that camelCasedSnivy is Mafia with me. But then, I really want to know if MargotRosa is Mafia. This means that I'm going to vote the person who I townread the least. VOTE: MargotRosa

Actually, VOTE: MargotRosa again because I heard that appeals to emotion are scummy. The Wiki states that this is utilised by Mafia to manipulate us.

Guilt by association is another example of a logical fallacy, as is my appeal to authority.

I think I'll UNVOTE: MargotRosa if that makes her happier.

[MargotRosa]

...How is 361 a soft to target me? You were voting me and I was your last FoS

At this point in the game, I was voting to eliminate you. I worked out that, given how wagons seemed to be going in this game, I'd be safe to just indicate who I was going to jail by making sure that I had jailed them (and had some vague ideas to change my vote after e-0 had been reached if I needed to)

In 361, I said that my vote is "staying put". Which you were. That's literally how JK works. If you were scum, it would prevent you from NKing, because you'd be staying put. In prison

So I could say, when I revealed I was JK, that I had crumbed not only my role, but what I'd do each night.

[MargotRosa]

The point was that I was going to jail you irrespective. Like, if you are scum d1, jailing you means I either prevent a NK, or prevent scum PR depending on whether you were goon or PR (and assuming we weren't in the column 3 setup)

[MargotRosa]

It made sense to me either way

[MargotRosa]

But also, why do I vote for RH9, and park my vote there, despite the role claim, until the end of d2, unless I am crumbing JK night action (which I stupidly didn't follow through on)

[MargotRosa]

No, Prism. You didn't. I did. I should have investigated MargotRosa instead of CheekyTeeky.

You should have investigated me basically every night since n1. The fact that you hadn't is weird. The fact that you are claiming every single read is Town is weird. How do you know the roles of 3 out of 4 players, all of whom are town, despite voting for me twice on d2 (the only person you voted twice on all game)?

Honestly, I wonder whether this whole play right now is safety in your mind, in case someone else is JK, so you have plausible deniability (If you didn't read me Scum, someone else blocks you tonight, you can claim you have been confounded at some point when you reach final elo tomorrow)

You don't have to stress. I am indeed JK, so you can just be honest and say you didn't get a read last night. This is elo

[MargotRosa]

Also, can't everyone see that RH9 was intentionally vague about which investigative role they had, until it became clear to Town (when Connor was limm'd) that we were most likely in a column three setup.

The idea was precisely what happened, ie. that if there was a JK, JK would assume that we were in a column one setup, and that RH9 was tracker. When that became untenable (because there were so few players), it didn't matter what was claimed

[MargotRosa]

Will revisit when I am home but if RH9 is mafia I literally threw away autowin yesterday so you can blame me if we lose lol

I'm way more frustrated at Camel tbh. I'm also frustrated that I didn't check the game when it was up

[MargotRosa]

I'm going to make a table of observations, so far, again of everybody who is still alive.

RH9's Observations
MargotRosa	Seems to have gotten a guilty report. See Post 595 and other posts.

This is surely a smoking gun btw.

If RH9 believes I am claiming investigative, again, in what universe do I not get immediately put at the top of the 'check in case this slot is mafia' list??

[MargotRosa]

I honestly wonder whether this was just supposed to be in some private notes thread and it was posted in the main thread instead

[MargotRosa]

I'm going to make a table of observations, so far, again of everybody who is still alive.

RH9's Observations
Player	Notes
Connordragon07	Can't say anything about him for Day 2 because the only posts that were posted were somewhat neutral. See Posts 541 and 580.
MargotRosa	Seems to have gotten a guilty report. See Post 595 and other posts.
camelCasedSnivy	Probably pro-Town, though not the most active. See their posts.
CheekyTeeky	Among the most active for Day 2. Probably pro-Town. See their posts.
catboi	Among the most active for Day 2. Seems more Town than flow trap was. See their posts.
Prism	Among the most active for Day 2, and probably the Town Leader. See their posts.

God, I also just realised in that post that the only slot, other than me, that didn't score at least a "probably Town" from RH9 in this post was connor, who is Null.

[MargotRosa]

No, Prism. You didn't. I did. I should have investigated MargotRosa instead of CheekyTeeky.

You should have investigated me basically every night since n1. The fact that you hadn't is weird. The fact that you are claiming every single read is Town is weird. How do you know the roles of 3 out of 4 players, all of whom are town, despite voting for me twice on d2 (the only person you voted twice on all game)?

Honestly, I wonder whether this whole play right now is safety in your mind, in case someone else is JK, so you have plausible deniability (If you didn't read me Scum, someone else blocks you tonight, you can claim you have been confounded at some point when you reach final elo tomorrow)

You don't have to stress. I am indeed JK, so you can just be honest and say you didn't get a read last night. This is elo

Ok, I'll be honest. I got Prism as Town on Night 3. I got CheekyTeeky as Town on Night 2. I got DaTacoX as Town on Night 1. I voted you twice, but when Connordragon07 flipped Mafia, I loosened my guard and instead voted the person who hammered him, CheekyTeeky. And I admit. I investigated DaTacoX because I thought that they were Mafia who deliberately propelled the wagon on RegRider. I investigated Prism because they suggested that I did that to them or you. CheekyTeeky and Prism, if we lose, you can definitely blame me for being a horrible Town Cop. And I was vague to give you claimspace. I now hate myself for not realising that I gave claimspace to the Mafia. I am never giving anybody claimspace again.

I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in the AtE going on towards the end of this post.

Why do you investigate Taco for propelling the wagon, instead of, for instance, Flow (now Catboi), a slot which had a proximity to the wagon that multiple slots had pointed out was fishy already, and who would be more difficult to read given the recallibration with the player switch?

[MargotRosa]

Actually, I take that back. I'll give people claimspace but not at the risk of letting Mafia claim Jailkeeper.

There's no situation in which you worry about giving claimspace to Mafia to claim Jailkeeper at any point in this game. This is genuinely insane.

Like, if I am Mafia, I kill you. This is because, if I am Mafia, I haven't left clues that I am JK, I don't have an actual set of night actions that I can point to that make sense.

I wish I was Scum, because if I was Scum, I would have so much easier a go of it trying to convince Cheeky that I am more Town than Prism in three-way ELO, rather than what I have to do right now, which is convince BOTH Cheeky and Prism that I am a JK so Town wins 4 way ELO.

I'm so mad with the way this game has played out, because this whole situation is really obvious if everyone steps back for two seconds, except for the fact that I am JK.

As in, the true circumstances make perfect sense. It seems fishy only because it's so odd that we managed to land in situation, and I am having to CC a cop one day after the hard role claim, two days after it was heavily implied, and after not posting d3.

[MargotRosa]

Ok, how about this. Can you explain, in the world in which I am Scum, why I make any of the plays that Scum made in this game?

[MargotRosa]

Actually, I take that back. I'll give people claimspace but not at the risk of letting Mafia claim Jailkeeper.

There's no situation in which you worry about giving claimspace to Mafia to claim Jailkeeper at any point in this game. This is genuinely insane.

Like, if I am Mafia, I kill you. This is because, if I am Mafia, I haven't left clues that I am JK, I don't have an actual set of night actions that I can point to that make sense.

I wish I was Scum, because if I was Scum, I would have so much easier a go of it trying to convince Cheeky that I am more Town than Prism in three-way ELO, rather than what I have to do right now, which is convince BOTH Cheeky and Prism that I am a JK so Town wins 4 way ELO.

I'm so mad with the way this game has played out, because this whole situation is really obvious if everyone steps back for two seconds, except for the fact that I am JK.

As in, the true circumstances make perfect sense. It seems fishy only because it's so odd that we managed to land in situation, and I am having to CC a cop one day after the hard role claim, two days after it was heavily implied, and after not posting d3.

Thanks for the admission. And no, you would fail to convince anybody but me that you're more Town than the others. And instead, you are stuck convincing two SEs that you're Jailkeeper so Town loses in a 4 way ELO. As Mafia, you wouldn't have killed and didn't kill me. You knew that I was the perfect scapegoat. And I understand, why you're mad. Catboi replaced flow trap and there goes your partner. This situation is obvious. There's a Town Cop, two Vanilla Townies claims who are confirmed to be Town by the Cop, and there's a Mafia who is claiming Jailkeeper and is mad.

Yes, but if I was scum, I would have NKed you last night. I wouldn't have had to convince you, because you would be dead.

The only reason you are still alive is that I am Town, and not Scum.

You didn't kill me when I claimed Cop because you knew that you would eliminate me, especially since camelCasedSnivy caused their own elimination. Then, you could win.

But, in this fictional world in which I am Scum, I didn't eliminate you?? I intentionally left you alive so you could confirm every other slot as being Town, and then set about the uphill battle of arguing against you, and additionally convincing two slots that I am Town, rather than killing you, and only needing to convince one slot??

I am Town. The situation we find ourselves in does not happen if I am Scum.

[MargotRosa]

To be fair, I was confused when DaTacoX was killed. I would have left him alive as a scapegoat, if I was Mafia. I would be like vote DaTacoX for propelling a mislim. I would never have guessed in a thousand years, that DaTacoX was Town. Until it was too late. Though, if Town loses because of me, I'm probably going to wish that I never confirmed three Town members instead of two Mafia.

So wait, was Taco being Town read by enough slots to justify eliminating, or does Taco get kept alive to be a scape goat?

Regarding the last point, I just don't know what to say there. It makes no sense to me at all. It only makes sense if you are Mafia and, when claiming investigative d2, claimed to have investigated the n1 NK to avoid accidently claiming that you read a PR as VT

[MargotRosa]

Anyway, I've made my case. I'll come back on in a few hours (maybe longer, need to catch up on sleep) if anyone needs questions answered. Up to you Prism and Cheeky

[MargotRosa]

Just finally, pointing out that noone died last night. I know that if I was Scum, I could very easily just no kill, but I'm just pointing it out anyway as a thing I made happen.

[MargotRosa]

Let me be more specific: Why was I simultaneously your top scumread and top choice to

protect

?

The point was that I was going to jail you irrespective. Like, if you are scum d1, jailing you means I either prevent a NK, or prevent scum PR depending on whether you were goon or PR (and assuming we weren't in the column 3 setup)

I want to point out that while this would be a valid reason to JK me, this is the exact opposite of what you said in the post that you had prepared overnight to copy/paste.

I JKed Prism n1,

because I thought that Prism was most likely to be targeted d1.

(I crumbed that I would do this in post 361.)

"Prism was most likely to be targeted" in this context means "most likely to be nightkilled"

There is a way to salvage this, which is that this is a secondary reason to the reason in the world where I am town. There is no reason to think this was secondary, though, because I was your top scumread at the time you softed.

I worked out that,

given how wagons seemed to be going in this game, I'd be safe to just indicate who I was going to jail by making sure that I had jailed them

(and had some vague ideas to change my vote after e-0 had been reached if I needed to)

This doesn't see to indicate anything about me being town in the wake of the wagons.

I would appreciate some explanation of why I was "most likely to be targeted [by the nightkill]" at the time of 360. Looking at your claim that the pick was motivated by the wagons at the time makes this even worse. 339 is nearly identical to the vote count at the time of 360. The wagons are...RegRider with 2 votes and myself with 2 votes.

You also had yet to finish your catchup and only dropped in to quickly respond to a refutation I had rather than this being an interaction initiated by yourself with a night choice in mind

The way I saw it in this moment:

It was clear you had gotten into a position of Town Leader. This meant one of two things:
a) You were actually Town, the amount of trust everyone was placing in you was justified, and therefore you made the most sense to eliminate.
b) You were very convincing scum.

At the time, I thought it was one or the other. I had started warming up to your slot more by the end of d1, which is reflected in the ISO. I absolutely felt like I was most likely protecting Town, but the point is that in the two worlds I thought were possible, either way it would achieve something

[MargotRosa]

No actually I don't think RH9 could pull this off as a newbie, but Margot could. Margot cast a lot of shade on Connor but never actually voted there. The crumb isn't very compelling either. I'm very impressed with the scumplay none-the-less.

I was surprised also, and have questioned myself and what was happening multiple times as a result. It's why so much of my play on d2 was confused, why I changed my mind a bunch, why on d2 I didn't JK RH9, etc.

What I think happened tbh was that the strategy for RH9 to lean into an investigative role was Connor's (a slot who has been playing longer than me) on day 2, and was a strat put together before it became clear Connor was going to be killed by Town.

Honestly explains a lot in my head, especially how RH9 plays with the investigative claim very differently before and after Connor dies. d2 looks coached to me, in a way that d3 doesn't. Investigating taco n1 was the only way to not possibly TMI that they weren't the role they claimed to be. Investigating Cheeky n2 makes no sense at all, especially given that both Connor and RH9 seemed to be setting up to Scum read me for a future elimination.

[MargotRosa]

I almost certainly saved you by jailkeeping RH9 last night

[MargotRosa]

You're right though. Idk, maybe it would have been smarter to have not JKed at all last night and thinned out the number of Town I needed to convince today.

I was worried that I'd be killed last night, and wouldn't have the opportunity to talk it through today, but honestly, thinking on it, it would have been perfect if he had, as I would have been role revealed and it would have been obvious that he was lying.

All would have, could have, should have.

[MargotRosa]

As for why you get Town cleared and not immediately night killed, that's really easy. For the strategy to work, RH9 needs to have a bunch of conf Towns. The ideal situation is the one he ended up with, in which only one player is not conf-towned by his investigations.

In a perfect world, conversation is shut down because it isn't necessary. Provided enough people are willing to go along with it (which he probably imagined would have just been one other person until I prevented him from killing last night) it is all over the second that one person agrees that the case is all wrapped up

[MargotRosa]

We could do this the long drawn out way where we vote no elim today and get RH9 to cop you, leash you to stand down and if he is blocked or dies then that resolves everything. If someone else dies then I guess it's up to them who wins.

Do you want to do this the hard way?

I am perfectly happy to do this whatever way you want, because I'm telling the truth.

I don't understand how this works from your explanation, but if it is actually a way to exonerate me, then lets do it. I want Town to win, and I have nothing to hide

[MargotRosa]

I promise, whatever you want me to do tonight, I will do, no question, if it will demonstrate that I'm telling the truth

[MargotRosa]

We can expedite it super quickly actually, if everyone agrees to vote to no elim, and then everyone messages the mod for a fast night, whatever you're planning would take only as long as it would take for everyone to see the latest post in the thread

[MargotRosa]

I just don't get why you won't believe that RH9 is scum, even though their Scum play in this situation is really choppy and inconsistent, but you will believe that I am scum despite my play needing to be incredibly convoluted, to have decided to plant crumbs day 1 for a role it almost never makes sense to fake claim, and for it to be a plan that makes contigencies for if I don't get to make a post for an entire game day

[MargotRosa]

Like, for me to be Scum, I need tro be able to play 4d chess after being on the site for two months, whereas RH9 just needs to be carrying out a fairly common strat, for their scum partner to have suggested it, as demonstrated by a drop in consistency and strength as soon as their scum partner dies

[MargotRosa]

I'm incredibly frustrated because I did nothing wrong and we are still going to lose because everyone else decided to fast play the day before ELO

[MargotRosa]

When I flip green, I hope everyone present remembers to never rush the day before Elo again, a move which can only benefit scum. Camel has been moved to N_M tier in the meta spreadsheet I'm compiling for anyone following along at home

[MargotRosa]

Ok, full disclosure, I completely missed RH9's role claim on day 2. I also was responsible for scum eliminating taco n1. I played so bad right up until n3. When I saw what happened D3, I just decided to kick my butt into gear. It was fun. I enjoyed really feeling like I had a plan, even if it wasn't technically the best one. I do think it's more likely to win there rather than killing RH9 and trying to convince Cheeky that I, rather than Prism, was Town, but who knows

[MargotRosa]

GG anyway.

[MargotRosa]

I was genuinely annoyed about D3 being cut so short. But I do think, in the end, it could only be to scum's benefit

[MargotRosa]

@GeorgeBailey happy to make scum chat public. Reading through the utter malarkey, especially my scrambling together a plan last minute might be amusing

[MargotRosa]

For Margot, I think I should discuss two different things.

First, you are clearly talented with your rhetoric and ability to frame arguments convincingly. Evidence of this could be seen in how various players reacted to reading through them without further digging. However, I think this bit you multiple times this game, where you simply said what you thought sounded good. One example was in the infamous criticism of my votes Day 1, while another was about protecting me from the NK Day 2. Your claims should hold up to basic investigation and process, and if they can't you need to reframe it to best explain the differences. You should be preempting basic fact checking or interpretative criticisms. You don't need to reinvent the wheel here or lay out a master plan-no scumplay is going to have a perfect explanation for everything, naturally-but you just need to be sure the bullets you're firing off aren't about to curve down into your foot at the slightest breeze of scrutiny.

Second, I think you underestimated your ability to win against me in 3 way. I think the points in 817 should have been persuasive, but that post was as much for you as it was for Cheeky. I was really hoping you would claim JK and give the hammer to me/Cheeky. The truth is that Cheeky and I do not think or hunt very similarly, and those differences clashed repeatedly throughout the game. It was very difficult for us to see the other as town at multiple points. It's easy for you to look at that list of points and say "Yeah they're all clearly valid as Prism is town," but some might have been less valid to Cheeky, and even the ones that were might not carry enough weight to swing it. Maybe the result would have been the same, but I personally thought you should have just kept a VT claim, and I think the mechanical backtracking we were able to do with both RH9 and yourself reinforces this.

This is a fantastic point actually.

I feel like my ability to be very convincing has been getting in my way in my previous games, especially as Town, because it isn't matched by my ability to sort slots lol

This is good to keep in mind. I need to spend some time developing my ability to read the game, as either side. Without that, the ability to be convincing isn't worth much

[MargotRosa]

You also put a lot of stock in the reports on myself in Cheeky. This is a correct logical process that leads to the right conclusion, but I don't want to make sure you don't miss another way to realize Margot was scum that last day: JK and cop simply can't coexist in this open setup, therefore she was scum by default in two different ways with the knowledge you had.

To be fair, I kind of noticed but I thought that she could argue back that I was Mafia because Cop is way easier to fake than Jailkeeper. I was actually surprised when she claimed Jailkeeper instead of Doctor, which would make sense as she could say that she saved CheekyTeeky. I thought that if she claimed Doctor, she could go on about finally protecting somebody. To be fair, I feel like she did a good job claiming a role which would not coexist with Cop. I feel like that if I was Mafia, I would have definitely claimed a easily fakeclaimable role like Doctor which can be easily justified and produce fake information for. Also, I did find it a good effort on her part in claiming that I was roleblocked when she could easily have said that she protected CheekyTeeky. And really, 'protecting' would imply that she is either Doctor or Jailkeeper. I feel like she did such a good job that I only realised the truth in Day 4, through PoE. And really is Jailkeeper basically Combined Doctor Roleblocker?

I claimed Jailkeeper not just because I knew we were in a column three setup, and would have to come up with a story as to why noone had claimed another Town power role.

More importantly, in my mind, I did it because it made the stakes very high. One thing I didn't like about where I had found myself was that the play had felt very automatic. That's why d3 had finished so quickly.

I needed to be able to come in immediately on d4 with something big that not only suggested I was innocent, but made players question their entire approach to the game up until that point. I kind of approached it as "I am not just accusing RH9 of being scum, I'm trying to accuse everyone of almost throwing the game". And I felt like the second half of that was actually a much easier case to make, because I genuinely think that d3 especially was bad, and I think the Connor elimination was a stroke of good luck. If I managed to successfully make that case, without being clear that was the case I was trying to make, I've just convinced Town of something that is genuinely true, and therefore seem much more trustworthy with respect to everything else I'm trying to say

I think my job was made much harder by the fact that the two people I was convincing were both SEs. I think too it makes sense that Prism got the closest to falling for it, given that they seemed pretty annoyed with themself for the d3 play. Cheeky had played quite well all game, and making them feel responsible for a confused d4 was very unlikely to work.

[MargotRosa]

So it was an attempt at some funky emotional manipulation leveraged on the fact that Town had played sub-optimally. I don't know how solid a strat that actually is, but it was fun to have given it a go nonetheless

[MargotRosa]

Me too. This game was really good.

I got the emotional manipulation idea from Titus in Lemon Demon. There, I Town locked her very early because she knew exactly which buttons to press to make me like her. I figured tho, if I was going to do something similar, it would be far more devious, and based in making people trust me because I've convinced them they can't trust themselves . Sounds a bit evil honestly, but I think that's why it's fun lol