Large normal 236 [Game over]

[Andresvmb]

@Koba are you Town? If you are, we can actually partner up for once.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

I had to do this. The name is just asking for a vote.

[Andresvmb]

@Koba are you Town? If you are, we can actually partner up for once.

weird thing to ask and you know why

I have to ask. I don’t want to have to fight you.

Fine, you’ll have to figure out my alignment over time then, and I will have to figure out yours. You really could have just told me you know.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Andres
This feels right

Also I was recently called a nerd so the opposite is soothing ty

This is just gambler’s fallacy affecting your worldview. You should abandon it now.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

I had to do this. The name is just asking for a vote.

I'm a one shot town alligned compulsive triggered publishing rolecop where my trigger is when I die ur role gets revealed to everyone

I don’t get mad

in general

with any one player fake claiming - I get annoyed when it is done poorly, for no benefit to the Town, at a random time. If done properly, it can have massive positive impact. Just in general.

[Andresvmb]

The only read I can currently express is that I have a mild positive Lean on Hakai. That’s it.

[Andresvmb]

The only read I can currently express is that I have a mild positive Lean on Hakai. That’s it.

How come?

I just liked the reasoning as to why they were withholding a TR on you based on the fact that you claimed negative utility. It wasn’t entirely superficial. That’s really it, just an early guess.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Andres
This feels right

Also I was recently called a nerd so the opposite is soothing ty

This is just gambler’s fallacy affecting your worldview. You should abandon it now.

hmmm...

you Detected why I voted

interesting

Here’s the thing. With those that I’ve played a lot of times, I think you guys are all sort of waiting to be the first ones to actually see me play Scum (and catch me). I’m sorry to say that it isn’t the case just yet. I want to show you the full breadth of my (limited) mafia capabilities, but I can’t because I keep randing Town like a crazy person.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

I had to do this. The name is just asking for a vote.

In other words, you're just happy to see me?

Your avatar is amazing. I’m definitely going to UNVOTE: .

[Andresvmb]

1: Scared of Koba.
2: "You figure out my alignment i'll figure out yours" (as expressed by no town ever in the history of mankind)

So when I flip Town, you’ll abandon any preconception that you have about what Town say or don’t say?

And I like Koba, I think they’re solid, and I want to be able to trust their reads. It makes the game easier. If I land on Koba Town, we can make life difficult for Scum. That’s why I reached out directly.

[Andresvmb]

Andre's normally starts games by saying he is town and this time he didn't

I'm not sure if I remember that.

I’ve done it a few times. It’s not all I do of course. And I have played 18 games on this forum including this one - my entrances are definitely more varied than what’s being implied here. Seems like a cheap way of concluding I’m Scum. But whatever.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Andres
This feels right

Also I was recently called a nerd so the opposite is soothing ty

This is just gambler’s fallacy affecting your worldview. You should abandon it now.

hmmm...

you Detected why I voted

interesting

Also you’re not the first person to fall for this. I think that’s why. I had this same debate with NPOM several games ago. Don’t care to go find it though.

[Andresvmb]

Will switch my vote to here VOTE: Loftwing.

[Andresvmb]

Opportunistic Scum is opportunistic.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, how much experience with Mafia do you have? Both IRL and Forum/other Mafia.

I’ve only played Forum Mafia. Outside of playing only Town here, I played a bunch of games on a different forum. In total, I’ve played… north of 100 games. My Town W/L record is like ~62% outside of here. I do think the Scum Win Rate around here is much higher than I’m used to. But I used to play with what I think are really strong Town players and often, so there’s that.

[Andresvmb]

Will switch my vote to here VOTE: Loftwing.

Not sure what is Scummy about this:

So far, I'm not really liking Andres.

Dwlee looks very intimidating, would not gladiate.

Nero Cain is Nero Cain.

Lickety is unsanitary, but I still trust them.

Mind explaining?

I thought my explanation was sufficient. They jumped to say they don’t “like” my posting when I’m garnering some pressure? What exactly don’t they like? You might want to ask them that.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, how much experience with Mafia do you have? Both IRL and Forum/other Mafia.

I’ve only played Forum Mafia. Outside of playing only Town here, I played a bunch of games on a different forum. In total, I’ve played… north of 100 games. My Town W/L record is like ~62% outside of here. I do think the Scum Win Rate around here is much higher than I’m used to. But I used to play with what I think are really strong Town players and often, so there’s that.

Alright.

Here's what I'm thinking about you.

You seem to be mixing between playing seriously and playing frivolously. You've made serious posts, but then after unvoted me for bad reasons. Not sure how to read your slot currently, but I'll try and keep tabs on you.

You seem to be mixing between playing seriously and playing frivolously. You've made serious posts, but then after unvoted me for bad reasons. Not sure how to read your slot currently, but I'll try and keep tabs on you.

It wasn’t bad reasons. It was a joke. I like The Matrix. I don’t take the early part of D1 all that seriously while it’s happening, though I mine it for information later in games.

For what it’s worth, I still like my Unvote.

[Andresvmb]

norway, is your case on Andre srs?

Yes.
I’ve already solved 1/4th of the game.
Go vote him.

You haven’t solved shit. You should keep trying.

[Andresvmb]

That is a fair criticism.

I'll look into why I don't like you at a later time.

@Koba maybe we do want to obliterate this. Just saying.

[Andresvmb]

That is a fair criticism.

I'll look into why I don't like you at a later time.

@Koba maybe we do want to obliterate this. Just saying.

Please do not obliterate poor loftwing. loftwing does not deserve obliteration.

On that note, do you think that I was being opportunistic, or was I expressing my thoughts?

I would argue opportunistic since I was the only negative read you expressed when you entered the game, but now that you’ve also expressed a negative read on Koba, and haven’t switched away from your RVS vote, I’m not as sure. I also really laughed at the image you posted so that’s a positive believe it or not.

[Andresvmb]

It wasn’t bad reasons. It was a joke.
For what it’s worth, I still like my Unvote.

???

Maybe because I like your subsequent posting? I didn’t know I had to explain every little thing.

[Andresvmb]

It wasn’t bad reasons. It was a joke.
For what it’s worth, I still like my Unvote.

???

Maybe because I like your subsequent posting? I didn’t know I had to explain every little thing.

No, I just expect people to normally post in a way that makes sense. If your meta is that you do this sort of thing all the time, then I don't really have a problem with your slot.

How does my posting not make sense? I might not have explained my reasoning in detail, but you are being a bit particular here. I Unvoted as a joke, which clearly isn’t a valid reason, and then I said that I actually didn’t mind my Unvote. That logically implies that something happened in between that justifies my earlier action. If you want to be annoying, by all means, but don’t act like you’re the only logical thinker around here.

[Andresvmb]

Wut?

Whatever. Let’s move on.

[Andresvmb]

DW is Town btw.

[Andresvmb]

DW is Town btw.

I mean LQ just told us he was man...

Hahaha I like your attitude.

[Andresvmb]

OK VOTE: Andres

Since when are you ever this active?

Brilliant way of finding Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Gambler's fallacy cuts both ways. It's either "this one is lucky so I should keep betting on it" or "this one is unlucky so its time should come soon". But anyway, this feels too defensive for such a vague vote.

Given subsequent conversation, it’s blatantly obvious what I meant there. Saying that it can cut both ways is just fluff. And it’s not too defensive if it’s correct. DW said as much.

[Andresvmb]

OK VOTE: Andres

Since when are you ever this active?

Brilliant way of finding Scum.

It can be if there's a major discrepancy in your meta.

And you’ve established this based on how many games of mine you’ve read?

[Andresvmb]

Are you playing intentionally or not?

How does one play unintentionally?

[Andresvmb]

Nero is definitely more Hardstyle.

[Andresvmb]

Nero is definitely more Hardstyle.

which one is the hardstyle and which one is shuffle?

I don’t know man the video only shows the two styles and the Jumpstyle doesn’t really seem like what your avatar is doing since you can’t see the legs kicking. That’s my interpretation.

[Andresvmb]

...That ain't it. That's like saying town should always be as defensive of themselves as possible because they're correct. That's not how it works.

You’re not understanding what I’m saying. DW voted me and said that they felt it was right. I guessed (correctly) that they were saying that it felt right because it’s been repeated multiple times in games we’ve played together that I’ve been nothing but Town. DW confirmed that was the case. I wasn’t too defensive - I correctly understood the motivation behind the vote, and told DW not to fall for a basic logical fallacy.

I wasn’t saying that I was correct because I’m Town so any logic for SR’ing me will always be wrong. There’s no point in even making that statement it’s so obvious.

[Andresvmb]

Are you playing intentionally or not?

How does one play unintentionally?

Someone pointed out earlier that you randomly go back and forth between being serious and being silly. (Can't be bothered to go back and find the source.)

I was being pedantic.

[Andresvmb]

not to townslip but i thought we were in a mini normal for a second and was looking for a team of 3 like a dummy LMFAOOOOOOOOO

ok finally someone said it

I was deadass just gonna say something but everyone is gonna be like u fake town slipped then just post it anyways for easy towncred as town

but then I realized I played too many normal normals and this is my first large. genuine question tho, how much mafia do we usually have?

4 is a good guess frankly.

[Andresvmb]

5 for a 16 person game is probably too many around here. Unless the Town are really strong.

[Andresvmb]

It feels like some players are still in RVS, and Nero is one of them.

I’m no expert, but this is definitely wrong.

[Andresvmb]

oh yeah i lied about townreading andres i wanted to just see reactions to it lmao

Oh boy. This is going to be interesting.

[Andresvmb]

Koba I think your POE is ass and you could be Scum. Fight me?

[Andresvmb]

It feels like some players are still in RVS, and Nero is one of them.

I’m no expert, but this is definitely wrong.

Why?

Because it’s a bad conclusion. Nero was shading you hard and TR’ing DW, while providing some other content, but they’re in RVS? It’s lazy.

[Andresvmb]

@Nero: No pressure and ni rush, but I'd appreciate it if you could give a "mini readlist" on the most active slot (i.e. LQ, Andres, Norwee, Dwlee, Granpa, DkK). Again NO RUSH. Thanks is advance

scum
null
town
town
null

scum
null
town
town
null

Ahem.. these are 5 reads.. on 6 slots..

Which one did you miss?

grandpa

How has this player not moved away from RVS already?

[Andresvmb]

Are people not allowed to joke anymore? I am nowhere near close to getting hammered.

[Andresvmb]

Are people not allowed to joke anymore? I am nowhere near close to getting hammered.

Nero typically doesn't joke and less so past RVS.

@Nero please come answer this hahaha

[Andresvmb]

Koba I think your POE is ass and you could be Scum. Fight me?

this rebuttal is about as potent as a wet badger

minus your own name, explain why it sucks.

Why is Ranny Town? Or Titus? And how is A50’s content conclusive either way? You TR Titus but think I need to be in the POE? How have you decided on Norwegian’s alignment?

Your POE is bad right now. At the very least it seems to have been set way too early.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I know you can make good reads early. That’s not what I’m saying. Norwegian put out a shit case against me and has done nothing else. What’s there to TR?

[Andresvmb]

So basically meta, meta, meta, and complex thought process. I can maybe see what you’re arguing with Ranny. The rest isn’t convincing.

[Andresvmb]

Well I am not pushing on them right now - but I am happy to allow the push on them persist at this point. There is a bit of a jarring personality difference I've noticed since gamestart and the initial comment caught me off guard that was directed at me. I believe Andres will become more clear in general once the non-posters join us.

I agree Anders will be easier to read with time. We might be looking for different things from them, however. My read is probably more subjective in what I am looking for so I will have to keep watching them. RN I am lightly TRing them though which is less than a Town Lean.

Have we played together before?

[Andresvmb]

Not that I am aware of.

So I guess you’re saying that I’ll be easier to read in the future because I’m posting a lot now? I wanted to make sure I wasn’t interpreting your post to mean something different. Typically when someone says something like what you wrote, I understand it to mean that because they know my playstyle, they’ll figure me out as we go along.

[Andresvmb]

@Koba are you Town? If you are, we can actually partner up for once.

weird thing to ask and you know why

I have to ask. I don’t want to have to fight you.

Fine, you’ll have to figure out my alignment over time then, and I will have to figure out yours. You really could have just told me you know.

OK so what is your Scum meta like?

I know you're a lurker but is that as Town or Scum?

The reason I'm asking is because you've got a ton of posts in this game already.

Please explain this to me Andre.

I don’t know that describing my Scum meta is of any use here when you don’t trust my alignment. What I can do is link you to a few discussions around it that I thought were decent when it came to my Scum meta, which might be more useful.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12051727
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12089528

I don’t like to lurk as either alignment for the record. I just get left behind sometimes. What you’re seen is just life getting in the way. I had more time here to start reading from the very beginning, so I’ve been more active. If you look through my history, you’ll see various levels of engagement as Town. Which is why I questioned how many of my games you had actually read - because if you had read more games, you would have quickly realized that I can be quite active when I want to be.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Norwegian

[Andresvmb]

ah yes scum motivated entrapment where I later even don't push people to vote there.

I would argue you didn’t entrap me.

But c’mon Koba you know better. I’m not seeing the reasons for your reads of certain players at all because they’re leaving lazy votes on my slot and I’m Town. Norwegian and Titus just decided to make crappy early arguments and double down on them, but you TR that? What will happen when I flip Town then? Will you wake up or continue pushing DW or LQ aside who I would argue at this point are quite likely to be Town.

I don’t know what to do about your argument with Kyouko. Kyouko has basically SR me every time they’re Town, and either ignored or defended me as Scum. So I’m always wary when I start seeing Kyouko make assumptions about my alignment when attacking other players. But this does feel a bit different - so it’s possible they’ve just read me right.

[Andresvmb]

if you try to ever hyperfocus 1 thing i do and call me scum for it you are playing very poorly and i have the game experiences to prove that point is true btw

why do you think im scum outside of that?

I'm used to your reads making sense as well, here your poe seems exaggerated. It's hard to connect the dots.

Like I agree with this @Koba, honestly. It’s exactly how I felt, which is why I expressed that your POE was bad. I have posted enough that you not making a real, thoughtful read of my slot one way or the other worries me. Instead, you’re okay with me being pushed. It’s just not common for you to adopt this attitude around my slot.

[Andresvmb]

there's content in andres' posts though that *is* pretty off for andres' town meta - which is where I'm seeing like concern in his slot.

Like what? Quote it. If you really want to express a SR of my slot, actually back it up. Because this is garbage.

[Andresvmb]

Speaking of which, IF IT ISN'T EXTREMELY APPARENT, I want to know what you think if Andre's activity level currently.

I am aware of the "change" in his usual rate of posting, but I am waiting a bit longer to decide on it. It's not going "unnoticed" though, I assure you.

Well at least you're not ignoring it like others are.

It's fucking obvious.

We have played one game together. You don’t know my posting style, and you’ve seen one day of my gameplay IN TOTAL. It’s embarrassing that you think this argument is as strong as you think it is. You should actually try and sort me based on my content in the game.

I’ve faced Scum before that have made bad meta arguments against Town players, but based on what I’ve seen, I actually have you as Lean Town believe it or not.

[Andresvmb]

Even if Koba is scum most of these reads are likely genuine.

This isn’t a thing btw. Reads can’t be genuine if they’re coming from Scum. They can only be strategic if they’re coming from Scum. It’s why when LQ described their own post as strategic, it raised some eyebrows.

[Andresvmb]

Then READ OTHER GAMES I’VE PLAYED.

[Andresvmb]

i think a50 has actually sprinkled in some useful stuff in which is precisely why i have marked him town here-> you're trying to cherrypick him now.

I went back and looked - A50 had maybe one post that could be thought of as game related. The one where they list multiple names and say that anyone with less than 10 posts outside of those names is Scum. But

that’s it

. Everything else they had posted up until here was either a joke, too vague to be thought of as progressing the game, or cryptic. I would argue Kyouko’s perception of A50’s posting is far more accurate than yours.

Also, I would note that you’re dunking on Kyouko who you originally excluded from your POE. You really can’t have it both ways.

[Andresvmb]

Speaking of which, IF IT ISN'T EXTREMELY APPARENT, I want to know what you think if Andre's activity level currently.

I am aware of the "change" in his usual rate of posting, but I am waiting a bit longer to decide on it. It's not going "unnoticed" though, I assure you.

This is quite possibly the only post that truly hints at how A50 views any player. And it’s about me, and it’s wrong anyway. So, I still don’t get how you’ve cleared them here. Posting jokes is all good, and though the relaxed attitude is something I tend to associate with Town (Scum being nervous about getting caught or directing the Town towards their Partners), A50 has not done nearly enough to merit exclusion from a hypothetical POE. That’s my opinion.

[Andresvmb]

Also, Nero is definitely not posting like I’m used to seeing them when Town. I’m keeping my eye out for you man.

[Andresvmb]

But c’mon Koba you know better. I’m not seeing the reasons for your reads of certain players at all because they’re leaving lazy votes on my slot and I’m Town. Norwegian and Titus just decided to make crappy early arguments and double down on them, but you TR that? What will happen when I flip Town then? Will you wake up or continue pushing DW or LQ aside who I would argue at this point are quite likely to be Town.

Why you trying to go around me by doing this manipulation on Koba instead of facing it head on.

Your read of me is horrendous. What is there for me to face head on exactly? You’re either piling on as Scum or being shit Town.

[Andresvmb]

also you know a50 has an activity tell lmao. you should not be trying to discredit him if hes actually posting like this early on.
everytime ive seen a50 scum he likes to go under the radar. Until i see a better argument post flips for him being scum there is 0 convincing me that he is scum at all.

I don’t know this at all actually. I haven’t played with A50 nearly enough to believe this to be true throughout. I’m just reading their content here, and the quantity of posts isn’t outweighing the fact that they’re largely devoid of any content.

[Andresvmb]

pls declare yourself more partnered wirh kyouko for me

it like makes this so much easier if you defend her like this bc shes my easiest read at this table

you absolutely know i am good at reading her btw - so either you think im scum, im right, or you need to argue why my streak is over.

You also aren’t reading my posts all that carefully. Which is concerning. Read what I wrote about Kyouko again, and tell me how I’m definitely declaring them Town. I’ll wait.

[Andresvmb]

also you know a50 has an activity tell lmao. you should not be trying to discredit him if hes actually posting like this early on.
everytime ive seen a50 scum he likes to go under the radar. Until i see a better argument post flips for him being scum there is 0 convincing me that he is scum at all.

I don’t know this at all actually. I haven’t played with A50 nearly enough to believe this to be true throughout. I’m just reading their content here, and the quantity of posts isn’t outweighing the fact that they’re largely devoid of any content.

Which still matches their town meta so pee pee poo poo

How is this hard to fake as Scum? Please answer that then.

[Andresvmb]

You also declared that a TR of me by “going against the grain” that you took back while declaring said POE. So how do I guess what is genuine and what isn’t then?

[Andresvmb]

"Could be scum" is garbage reasoning. And i have especially distinct disdain for it because it how i get mislimmed in games.

This is a reach. I’m not arguing A50 is Scum! I’m arguing A50 is just null, and shouldn’t be hard locked as Town!

Maybe the background behind what I’m doing isn’t clear. Two players have already sheeped your read of Kyouko. You could very well be right. I really don’t know. What I do know could very well happen is that certain players get lazy, and they decide that they can replace their need to think with your reads. And then they just run through your POE and, if for some reason some of the names you’ve left out are Scum, or several of the ones you’ve included are Town, we lose. Because people listen to you, and most Town players are just that, lazy.

If you’re Scum well I don’t know if you would use your ability to read a particular player to your advantage quite like this. But you are wrong about me, and I am one of the leading wagons. So maybe rethink where I’m coming from.

[Andresvmb]

Why that matter?

That’s not for you.

[Andresvmb]

there's content in andres' posts though that *is* pretty off for andres' town meta - which is where I'm seeing like concern in his slot.

Like what? Quote it. If you really want to express a SR of my slot, actually back it up. Because this is garbage.

You still haven’t answered this.

[Andresvmb]

@A50 do you want to share your reads or no? Because that would actually be helpful. I’m not looking for long explanations - just how you see the game.

[Andresvmb]

Who are your confident TRs?

[Andresvmb]

Provided you don’t expect others to express detailed views of the game or the reasons for their reads, fine by me.

[Andresvmb]

What is your read on SSB Andres. Do you scumread them?

Here’s my take - the reason I haven’t defended Kyouko aggressively despite seriously questioning Koba is because if I’m wrong about Koba (and I can be - Koba is notoriously hard to read) is because Kyouko admitted that Koba has their number, and yet they’re not screaming

hard

to get Koba executed. There’s not a whole lot of outrage in 461 or 480 for example. Just some surprise, a rather meek admission that Koba does have Kyouko’s number, and some strategic discussion about how Koba might go about using their 100% read rate to their advantage as Scum.

I am comfortable applying the burden of proficiency standard to a select

few

players. The number is small, and since I haven’t played here enough most of those players are in the old forum I used to play in. Koba is in that list. I have a feeling Kyouko agrees that the standard should apply to Koba too. If that’s indeed the case, then why aren’t they more outraged that Koba is reading them wrong and hard dunking on them? And why are they letting me take all the heat here? I’ve been in games with players I know can easily tell when I’m Town. I know how that feels like. And when they’re hedging on my slot (and I’m acting like my usual Town self), or even worse, calling me Scum, I obviously get suspicious. I’m always skeptical even if you have me right, but with some players it becomes more obvious when they should be reading you correctly but aren’t.

At the same time, I have seen Koba get some things wrong (of course, none of us are perfect). But after screaming this loud for an execution? I think that’s maybe a bit rare. If we flip Kyouko, and they flip Scum, Koba is going to get NK’ed and well, that’ll be that. But if they’re wrong? Then what? That’s going to be hard. What I’ve done in the past in situations like this is advocated for the “1v1” to get sorted, and go from there. I don’t know that I’m the one who should be making this argument. But I think it should be considered.

[Andresvmb]

@Koba and you should consider answering my 587.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, I’ve read through and seen you complain about weak votes from Norwee and Titus, and people reading your meta wrong. Would it be fair to say you’ve been caught for the wrong reasons?

Yeah, I’m Scum and I’m sooo mad that you “caught me”.

[Andresvmb]

I've seen scum put out completely genuine reads in the hope of sounding town.

I’m sorry to keep harping on this, but no, they’re not genuine. They might be correct, but genuine implies good faith. Scum never have good faith. There’s only machinations that they hope gets them closer to victory. You can’t have true reads when you know the answer. Only solid reasons or excuses for your positioning.

[Andresvmb]

Consider my vote on Kyouko for now. I want to give the non-posters time to catch up [Kop, MargotRosa].

[Andresvmb]

I’ll return to this game later tonight.

@Mod, FYI

[Andresvmb]

Let me read, it’s been a long day at work.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Kyouko

[Andresvmb]

I’m here for the flip.

[Andresvmb]

Koba btw you’ve complained about this before - about how you’ve been misread because you interpreted informed Town players to be Scum. Maybe cut me some slack next time.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Mama Ru

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Dorsey

[Andresvmb]

I was cop Checked? Cool. Yeah, I have yet to roll Scum. It’s up to 20 games now I think.

[Andresvmb]

I was a little more active. I had more time. Yeah I’ve been absurdly busy. I figured you had more of a handle on the game Koba. So I was sheeping you.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: T3

[Andresvmb]

Well this is a game I played.