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hello

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I took a look at one of Koba's scumgames and i'm still convinced they are more likely town than not in this game. There are certain things in their ISO that just seems hard to fake as mafia.
Stating for the record that i am not simply assuming Koba is town to an detriment, but i genuinely believe it.
Thus i'd really like for Kyouko to give some really good reasoning for why Koba!scum in this game, because if not i'd like to continue arguing for their yeet, because their current stance on Koba just seems like a wet fart omgus from someone that doesn't know how to react to heavy pressure on their slot.

can you quickly bullet point the things in their ISO which are hard to fake as mafia? koba is an experienced player so the bar would be pretty high

what is your reason for kyouko being mafia? is it informed by looking at any of their past games? simple bullet points again would be great please

thank you!

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hello

I was contemplating just ignoring you, because ew alts.
But might as well have some formalities in order.

Hi, have you read up on the game and do you have thoughts?

my first feeling from this page is if koba is town, you could look like possible mafia for defending koba to win yourself a friend. but i dont know everything yet

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I’ve already said that i’m voting Kyouko until they post.
I think their shitty reaction to pressure from Koba and subsequent flaking from the game was extremely scum indicative. If they return and make town posts i’ll change my mind, but if nothing has happened to change my scumread of the slot i don’t see why it should.

What about my reaction to pressure is shitty?

Your immediate OMGUS on Koba when they called you out was really scummy, and i don't think you genuinely believe your own arguments about why Koba is mafia.

Correction : i was only publicly scumreading kyouko once she went into discred mode against me.
I was holing the read bc she knows shes done for due to my ability against her meta.
She's continued to post in a way that is her scum meta. Its all shallow nonsense disguised by clever wording.

interesting that NorwegianboyEE says you were publicly scumreading kyouko first then. one is right, one is wrong. if you are right, why would the other player make that mistake? a convenient/lazy argument or just easy to sell? but for you there's no incentive to make that correction there as mafia.

it's an interesting game for me already

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im not sure how many votes they have, but I'd like to vote for Loftwing. i feel deep in my heart that loftwing is not playing for the good team here becaseu very performative style, lots of posts with little content early on, but just something not good with the tone which is hard to explain.

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interesting that NorwegianboyEE says you were publicly scumreading kyouko first then. one is right, one is wrong. if you are right, why would the other player make that mistake? a convenient/lazy argument or just easy to sell? but for you there's no incentive to make that correction there as mafia.

I didn't look back to confirm the exact timeline, i just remembered that i hated SSB's vibes from those pages and how they were interacting with Koba.

i guess it looked like it was integral to your "OMGUS" argument for them being mafia, so maybe its a surprise you would get it wrong. anyone can make mistakes but more common for mafia who are only pretending to find the mafia

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im not sure how many votes they have, but I'd like to vote for Loftwing. i feel deep in my heart that loftwing is not playing for the good team here becaseu very performative style, lots of posts with little content early on, but just something not good with the tone which is hard to explain.

If you think Loftwing is scum, do you think that makes SSB's allignment clearer? Given that Loftwing has been attacking the slots that are pushing SSB.

yes i think loftwings position there is strange. attacked for defending the slot, so responds by arguing they are a nullread which could be a way of trying to not look like they are buddying up - which would be tough for the evil team. although could also be loftwing trying to distance from a town elimination. not the only player potentially in that camp i can see.

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interesting that NorwegianboyEE says you were publicly scumreading kyouko first then. one is right, one is wrong. if you are right, why would the other player make that mistake? a convenient/lazy argument or just easy to sell? but for you there's no incentive to make that correction there as mafia.

I didn't look back to confirm the exact timeline, i just remembered that i hated SSB's vibes from those pages and how they were interacting with Koba.

i guess it looked like it was integral to your "OMGUS" argument for them being mafia, so maybe its a surprise you would get it wrong. anyone can make mistakes but more common for mafia who are only pretending to find the mafia

My thoughts are always messy and i base my reads heavily on gut feelings i get from posts, and detecting bad or good faith of the posters in question.
It really doesn't matter to me exactly the circumstances of their interactions, i just know it gave me real bad vibes and i heavily townread Koba.

OK thanks can you summarise the townread on koba? useful for everyone to understand the reasons, especially because you have used other games experience

and loftwing i will share more thoughts i later

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VOTE: loftwing

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why mention it in the first place then? perhaps koba will be on guard now anyway if you're correct

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maybe but to me, if someone says "I have really strong reasons for a player being town, to the point I will find it really hard to believe they are scum", and then can't substantiate it at all when probed, it looks fishy and at best doesn't have as much credibility as you would want it to.

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gut says probably not kyouko today. could consider LicketyQuickety though. it would be more informative for me partly because of the player's clear posting style. and that defence stuff about 'I can't be scum here because I'd never post a half-complete readslist as scum' was a bit sus. had a bit of "mafia caught for the wrong reasons" vibe to it

I'll UNVOTE: for now anyway, seems like things are getting a bit fiesty

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talking about policy elimming and speed elimming someone is a red flag for me, we have 4 days left? I can think about it

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exactly, i wouldnt mind playing a bit before rushing to night phase. i don't know if kyouko is gut towny to me as i havent read everything yet, but i don't really feel kyouko-scum from the gamestate / general vibe here.

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dkkoba what's the three-point summary of Kyouko-scum for me?

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Pressure isn't pressure if it doesn't actually carry a threat of dying with it. Wtf

loftwing is just scum. let's switch to him and then we can get kyouko after.

I still feel like Loftwing has a better chance of just being... wrong

Although I've definitely won games killing wrong town before getting the scum lol

hmmm

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cool cookie - loftwing - andres- kyouko

is a solve i dont hate atp

these are the only 4 names that are not hitting the bar of townienes I have currently set.

I don't think that scumteam ever wins this game

Loftwing - I'm willing to buy this as dkkoba-town - partly player, partly gamestate read. at the very least, dkkoba would be way down the list of folk to consider elimming today.

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im mostly wary of those following dkkoba reads, as it's a very easy way to stay out of the limelight. Dwlee99 is of interest, not only for that reason, but to look at later.

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What is your read on SSB Andres. Do you scumread them?

Here’s my take - the reason I haven’t defended Kyouko aggressively despite seriously questioning Koba is because if I’m wrong about Koba (and I can be - Koba is notoriously hard to read) is because Kyouko admitted that Koba has their number, and yet they’re not screaming

hard

to get Koba executed. There’s not a whole lot of outrage in 461 or 480 for example. Just some surprise, a rather meek admission that Koba does have Kyouko’s number, and some strategic discussion about how Koba might go about using their 100% read rate to their advantage as Scum.

I am comfortable applying the burden of proficiency standard to a select

few

players. The number is small, and since I haven’t played here enough most of those players are in the old forum I used to play in. Koba is in that list. I have a feeling Kyouko agrees that the standard should apply to Koba too. If that’s indeed the case, then why aren’t they more outraged that Koba is reading them wrong and hard dunking on them? And why are they letting me take all the heat here? I’ve been in games with players I know can easily tell when I’m Town. I know how that feels like. And when they’re hedging on my slot (and I’m acting like my usual Town self), or even worse, calling me Scum, I obviously get suspicious. I’m always skeptical even if you have me right, but with some players it becomes more obvious when they should be reading you correctly but aren’t.

At the same time, I have seen Koba get some things wrong (of course, none of us are perfect). But after screaming this loud for an execution? I think that’s maybe a bit rare. If we flip Kyouko, and they flip Scum, Koba is going to get NK’ed and well, that’ll be that. But if they’re wrong? Then what? That’s going to be hard. What I’ve done in the past in situations like this is advocated for the “1v1” to get sorted, and go from there. I don’t know that I’m the one who should be making this argument. But I think it should be considered.

this is pretty bad, especially in a Koba-Kyouko TvT world.

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Andres, I’ve read through and seen you complain about weak votes from Norwee and Titus, and people reading your meta wrong.

Would it be fair to say you’ve been caught for the wrong reasons?

This looks weird to me, anyon eplayed with Ranny before? It feels like the classic "fairish" scumtell, also the words dont seem to match the intent.

Like what is expected here Ranny? What do you expect Andre's to say and what do you get from that? This feels snipish.

agree that is a bit odd from Ranny.

have read the Kyouko-iso - not much there to get excited about. could be scum (koba's observations seem fair - lack of town fire, catching up a bit of a toil, although none of those are hard tells for me in isolation). I can get why koba would want to elim there if the meta fits, but compared to the field I don't think Kyouko is top tier scummy or a priority elim today.

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im mostly wary of those following dkkoba reads, as it's a very easy way to stay out of the limelight. Dwlee99 is of interest, not only for that reason, but to look at later.

Do you think there's anyone following their reads that might be trying to avoid suspicion?

that's exactly what i was implying. or to frame it differently, if scum aren't doing that, it's a strategic error.

What is your read on SSB Andres. Do you scumread them?

Here’s my take - the reason I haven’t defended Kyouko aggressively despite seriously questioning Koba is because if I’m wrong about Koba (and I can be - Koba is notoriously hard to read) is because Kyouko admitted that Koba has their number, and yet they’re not screaming

hard

to get Koba executed. There’s not a whole lot of outrage in 461 or 480 for example. Just some surprise, a rather meek admission that Koba does have Kyouko’s number, and some strategic discussion about how Koba might go about using their 100% read rate to their advantage as Scum.

I am comfortable applying the burden of proficiency standard to a select

few

players. The number is small, and since I haven’t played here enough most of those players are in the old forum I used to play in. Koba is in that list. I have a feeling Kyouko agrees that the standard should apply to Koba too. If that’s indeed the case, then why aren’t they more outraged that Koba is reading them wrong and hard dunking on them? And why are they letting me take all the heat here? I’ve been in games with players I know can easily tell when I’m Town. I know how that feels like. And when they’re hedging on my slot (and I’m acting like my usual Town self), or even worse, calling me Scum, I obviously get suspicious. I’m always skeptical even if you have me right, but with some players it becomes more obvious when they should be reading you correctly but aren’t.

At the same time, I have seen Koba get some things wrong (of course, none of us are perfect). But after screaming this loud for an execution? I think that’s maybe a bit rare. If we flip Kyouko, and they flip Scum, Koba is going to get NK’ed and well, that’ll be that. But if they’re wrong? Then what? That’s going to be hard. What I’ve done in the past in situations like this is advocated for the “1v1” to get sorted, and go from there. I don’t know that I’m the one who should be making this argument. But I think it should be considered.

this is pretty bad, especially in a Koba-Kyouko TvT world.

Could you explain why you think this is bad? I'd like to see your thoughts on the matter.

in essence, it's saying:

Flip Kyouko today. if town, flip Koba tomorrow. potentially setting up multiple mis-elims, under the guise of "dkkoba is always right".

more generally, selectively applying 'burden of proficiency' is a real easy mafia tactic. would be interesting to know if the consensus/evidence from past games is that andres does hold koba in such high esteem.

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im mostly wary of those following dkkoba reads, as it's a very easy way to stay out of the limelight. Dwlee99 is of interest, not only for that reason, but to look at later.

Do you think there's anyone following their reads that might be trying to avoid suspicion?

that's exactly what i was implying. or to frame it differently, if scum aren't doing that, it's a strategic error.

Could you name anyone who you think might be doing this?

I could. Are you asking this because you think I can't? Or because you're trying to send me in a certain direction/want me to give you a direction to follow? just curious

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im mostly wary of those following dkkoba reads, as it's a very easy way to stay out of the limelight. Dwlee99 is of interest, not only for that reason, but to look at later.

y DW more than norway?

not necessarily more, but I've looked at norway a bit already, and not looked at DW yet. but yes either could fall in that camp.

also, even if norway is mafia, trying that today is probably futile so it's more of a watching brief perhaps.

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im mostly wary of those following dkkoba reads, as it's a very easy way to stay out of the limelight. Dwlee99 is of interest, not only for that reason, but to look at later.

Do you think there's anyone following their reads that might be trying to avoid suspicion?

that's exactly what i was implying. or to frame it differently, if scum aren't doing that, it's a strategic error.

Could you name anyone who you think might be doing this?

I could. Are you asking this because you think I can't? Or because you're trying to send me in a certain direction/want me to give you a direction to follow? just curious

I want to know who you think they might be, I'd like to investgate them further.

Interesting - I think I'd already given 2 examples, as Nero pointed out.

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I know what you’re trying to say but that is not what my point was about. There is no contradiction there.

Except you are saying Nero was sheeping me, when I am telling you I was sheeping Nero. I voted you because of what Nero said and I feel like you case on Nero that he was sheeping me is not true because I voted you because of Nero.

if true, that would be the second time NorwegianboyEE has made a similar error in a short timeframe. could be a case of throwing a lot of shade and seeing what sticks, seems like it could be from a bad motivation.

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I don’t think Norwee is the move today.

We could always eliminate me.

Hey Nero! I THINK YOU'RE SCUM!

interested in these reactions immediately following NorwegianboyEE getting a bit of pressure, maybe top 2 biggest wagons. it would be an infortmative elim if it happened...time to put my vote to use...

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

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Also theres 0 chancd norwee is limmed here today

thats what i said earlier but either way it will tell us something - norwee asked for everyone to vote for one of the leading wagons earlier, so interesting to see what happens now one of the leading wagons is on them. if there is factual info which clears norwee, that can come out if needed. but tbh im not really convinced by the defense that a player can't be mafia because they post a lot. especially an experienced player can keep their cover better than that.

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UNVOTE:

Ok I will give that the benefit of the doubt. it would explain the awkward tension i saw between you.

kyouko elim seems to be relatively low info and low priority for me, although wouldn't say its overly townie either. it just feels better to follow my own thoughts on this game for now and we can learn something about other players. even more so if 2 of our most powerful characters have outted. maybe i will rank the players later.

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i did read koba's summary on SSB, and it wasnt compelling for me. the downside of meta is it can be hard to get other players to just trust you blindly when they werent there, although i still quite like the idea of it.

what do you both think of rannygazoo? their ISO makes for interesting reading given your claims.

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in the mafia game if nobody challenges consensus/loudest voices, it is not good to learn anything. maybe that's a philosophy

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But norwee and Koba were so obvtown

being town doesnt mean being right necessarily

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maybe Rannygazoo is not all bad - i like some of the earlier stuff. but some hint of knowing more than he should, and an interesting evolution in thoughts overall. basically rannygazoo begins with a bit of stand-offishness towards the claimed masons, then rueful at 2 potential town loudplayers on the same page, and finally capitulates and sheeps with no diguise. some other points i noted...

Spoiler:

Can we stop this shitty wagon on town!Dwlee and many sus slots defending scum!SSBM for dumb reasons.

I do not vibe with this. I don’t think Norwee has enough towncred to make demands like this.

But prove me wrong. Why should we wagon Kyo, aside from Koba’s intuition for meta? I can’t read her by myself since all she’s done is talk about catching up, followed by a whole lot of not catching up. I just don’t like to vote based on someone else’s vibes unless I have nothing better to go on.

the cynic in me wonders if this is asking for a case to piggyback on, given where we end up...

the walkback on SSB:

@Koba and @Nowree once we put this behind us, what is next on the agenda? Elim SSB immediately or wait for their V/LA to end?

Andres, I’ve read through and seen you complain about weak votes from Norwee and Titus, and people reading your meta wrong.

Would it be fair to say you’ve been caught for the wrong reasons?

This looks weird to me, anyon eplayed with Ranny before? It feels like the classic "fairish" scumtell, also the words dont seem to match the intent.

Like what is expected here Ranny? What do you expect Andre's to say and what do you get from that? This feels snipish.

We have pages of discussion about you and this is one of the few things you want to focus on? I’ve been trying to stay prudent and keep the game level-headed and this makes me feel like I was wrong to do so. Smdh my head.

VOTE: SSB

im mostly wary of those following dkkoba reads, as it's a very easy way to stay out of the limelight. Dwlee99 is of interest, not only for that reason, but to look at later.

Do you think Koba is town and scum are sheeping, or do you think Koba is scum trying to strongarm the game?

this is a red flag - it was very clear i think that i was implying the former, so setting up the latter may be a bit of misrep/distancing from the truth.

I don’t think Norwee is the move today.

On the contrary, if we had ended the day so early, I would have taken it much more seriously that y’all might be scum trying to strongarm the game, regardless of the flip.

still on the strongarming. maybe TMI.

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im fine with the mason claim. if they are mafia, it is a lie which would quickly be found out, and not a good play. also agree with koba there isnt much risk if 1 flipped mason we wouldn't immediately know who the partner was.

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It literally doesn't matter if anyone "doesn't believe it", as ridiculous as that even sounds to me.
Because it'd be confirmed immediately when one of us dies tonight.

My point is you two are obviously not masons from the way Koba has posted about you prior to the claim and the way you are now ignoring my request for a paraphrase of Koba's case. You're both just trying to strongarm this without presenting evidence and now that I'm actually here to play it's falling apart and desperation is sinking in.

What I'm trying to figure out is why you're going along with it - is your read misplaced or are you scum with Koba... Why do you TR them?

i dont follow this

I don’t think Norwee is the move today.

We could always eliminate me.

Hey Nero! I THINK YOU'RE SCUM!

interested in these reactions immediately following NorwegianboyEE getting a bit of pressure, maybe top 2 biggest wagons. it would be an infortmative elim if it happened...time to put my vote to use...

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

This is my first scumread.

why? do you have thoughts on anything else which has taken place recently?

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maybe Rannygazoo is not all bad - i like some of the earlier stuff. but some hint of knowing more than he should, and an interesting evolution in thoughts overall. basically rannygazoo begins with a bit of stand-offishness towards the claimed masons, then rueful at 2 potential town loudplayers on the same page, and finally capitulates and sheeps with no diguise. some other points i noted...

Spoiler:

Can we stop this shitty wagon on town!Dwlee and many sus slots defending scum!SSBM for dumb reasons.

I do not vibe with this. I don’t think Norwee has enough towncred to make demands like this.

But prove me wrong. Why should we wagon Kyo, aside from Koba’s intuition for meta? I can’t read her by myself since all she’s done is talk about catching up, followed by a whole lot of not catching up. I just don’t like to vote based on someone else’s vibes unless I have nothing better to go on.

the cynic in me wonders if this is asking for a case to piggyback on, given where we end up...

the walkback on SSB:

@Koba and @Nowree once we put this behind us, what is next on the agenda? Elim SSB immediately or wait for their V/LA to end?

Andres, I’ve read through and seen you complain about weak votes from Norwee and Titus, and people reading your meta wrong.

Would it be fair to say you’ve been caught for the wrong reasons?

This looks weird to me, anyon eplayed with Ranny before? It feels like the classic "fairish" scumtell, also the words dont seem to match the intent.

Like what is expected here Ranny? What do you expect Andre's to say and what do you get from that? This feels snipish.

We have pages of discussion about you and this is one of the few things you want to focus on? I’ve been trying to stay prudent and keep the game level-headed and this makes me feel like I was wrong to do so. Smdh my head.

VOTE: SSB

im mostly wary of those following dkkoba reads, as it's a very easy way to stay out of the limelight. Dwlee99 is of interest, not only for that reason, but to look at later.

Do you think Koba is town and scum are sheeping, or do you think Koba is scum trying to strongarm the game?

this is a red flag - it was very clear i think that i was implying the former, so setting up the latter may be a bit of misrep/distancing from the truth.

I don’t think Norwee is the move today.

On the contrary, if we had ended the day so early, I would have taken it much more seriously that y’all might be scum trying to strongarm the game, regardless of the flip.

still on the strongarming. maybe TMI.

My dude why are you obsessed with me

i'm not obsessed with you. i think looking at people's posts is just part of figuring out the game, and can be a good way to work out who is mafia and who is town. i guess this is a discussion based game, so there's no personal attractions with you here!

my counter-question might be, why have you had such a dramatic reaction on the occasions I've called attention to your presence? i haven't even voted for you, so it can't be that you are under too much pressure?

im mostly wary of those following dkkoba reads, as it's a very easy way to stay out of the limelight. Dwlee99 is of interest, not only for that reason, but to look at later.

Do you think Koba is town and scum are sheeping, or do you think Koba is scum trying to strongarm the game?

this is a red flag - it was very clear i think that i was implying the former, so setting up the latter may be a bit of misrep/distancing from the truth.

I will address this point -- I straight up do not remember why I asked this. I thought I was going to expose something about your motivations, but looking at it now, it's an obvious question.

However, your weird combination of wishy-washyness and tunneling feels unnatural, and unnatural feel scummy. I wouldn't mind eliminating you now, but I don't want you to be my vanity wagon.

@titus join forces?

i think what you could perceive as "wishy-washyness" is me simply trying to be engaged and alive to the player list as a whole, and find my feet in the game. i only just replaced in, so i'm figuring things out as i go - although being reactive to trends in the game is part of my approach anyway. but "tunneling" is definitely not a fair characterisation, given i've reflected on a range of players and not been too aggressive in pushing anyone yet, although of course i want to test reactions too.

maybe you could expand on the tunnelling point - do you feel, for instance, I have been tunnelling you since joining the game yesterday?

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gut says probably not kyouko today. could consider LicketyQuickety though. it would be more informative for me partly because of the player's clear posting style. and that defence stuff about 'I can't be scum here because I'd never post a half-complete readslist as scum' was a bit sus. had a bit of "mafia caught for the wrong reasons" vibe to it

Followed by:

Andres, I’ve read through and seen you complain about weak votes from Norwee and Titus, and people reading your meta wrong.

Would it be fair to say you’ve been caught for the wrong reasons?

This looks weird to me, anyon eplayed with Ranny before? It feels like the classic "fairish" scumtell, also the words dont seem to match the intent.

Like what is expected here Ranny? What do you expect Andre's to say and what do you get from that? This feels snipish.

agree that is a bit odd from Ranny.

You use the "caught for the wrong reasons" line and THEN you say it's odd coming from me, when I said it first. This is fake.

Ah i understand. To be clearer, I wasn't suggesting it was odd for you to consider someone to be "caught for the wrong reasons", but the fact you posed that to them as a question. As Kyouko had noted, (which I agreed with) it could be fine as an observation, but to frame it as an ask seemed disingenuous. Do you understand that?

I don’t think Norwee is the move today.

We could always eliminate me.

Hey Nero! I THINK YOU'RE SCUM!

interested in these reactions immediately following NorwegianboyEE getting a bit of pressure, maybe top 2 biggest wagons. it would be an infortmative elim if it happened...time to put my vote to use...

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

This vote was bad, and so was your loftwing vote. Followed by unvotes within the hour. What are you up to? Trying different wagons to see what sticks?

maybe Rannygazoo is not all bad - i like some of the earlier stuff. but some hint of knowing more than he should, and an interesting evolution in thoughts overall. basically rannygazoo begins with a bit of stand-offishness towards the claimed masons, then rueful at 2 potential town loudplayers on the same page, and finally capitulates and sheeps with no diguise. some other points i noted...

I feel like I'm not a main character today and I'm too busy to be very active. Why are you giving me outsized importance? Don't get me wrong, you are allowed to. I even think it's good that someone is considering me critically. I just don't understand why it's coming from you.

that is exactly why i think it's important to look at you, and others in that camp. you are no less important than anybody else - you have an equal chance of being mafia as everybody else. If a town just gave you a free pass because you were quiet, would that be good? seems to be a bad precedent to set. but really, like most of my comments it was just prompted by a comment which stuck out to me, and then I did some more research on you. but I think my assessment was fair and your reaction was overly defensive.

on my voting, I think I only made 2 votes so far, and neither of them stuck for long, so hard to say I really gave anything a chance to stick? you say my votes were bad, but you dont say why. I think both were fine tbh, maybe you are just not relaxed with somebody using their vote as a tool to learn more information. sometimes voting to see how people react is a good way to learn. also having conversations with real substance and detail

and in that spirit VOTE: Titus for not engaging with my questions and just voting without any opinions

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i'm possibly V/LA between now and deadline as not sure what internet access i'll have, but let's see

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I am very lost and I think I will do better after a reset tomorrow.

My very confident reads are:
Nero town
Nowee town
Koba town
Dwlee town
Nero town I may mor may not elaborate on later.

not bad for someone very lost on Day 1

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Ok cool. What questiond did I not answer and why should I care?

What is your Kyouko read?

im not sure how to answer the first one really. if you dont care about the game, or my questions then meh. im just trying to play the game and work out who is town and who is mafia, and talking to people is the best way to do that

i think all i asked was about your opinions very generally, and your read on me specifically as you said i'm your first scumread in 60 pages but didnt say why. given you're a sensible player i thought you might have some interesting insight on what was happening, like the mason claim, general town vibe, suspects etc.

overall i'm fairly neutral on kyouko. not especially town by any means, but not overtly scummy overall. there are a few other players who interest me more, and it feels like low-info because it was really driven hard by the 2 loud players without meaningful opposition, and they themselves may be masons. also the way the wagon has gone, i don't feel that great about it flipping mafia, although that's mostly gut. I wouldn't fall over shocked if it flipped scum, but my current thinking is it isn't the best elim today. i may be wrong of course, that's part of the game

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an overall reflection would be there seem to be lots of folk not doing / saying much and getting away with it, i'm not sure if that's a good situation

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From a mech standpoint you let Kyo live a day to see if a friendly neighbor message comes through. If it doesn't you kill her. That could be bad if Kyo is scum though because maybe she has a power role she wants to stall to use

yeah i agree with this. elimming a power role which can confirm themselves isn't a good idea, and unlikely to be any harm in letting it play out. i guess for me the mason claim and the friendly neighbour claim could both be true mechanically

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I don't think we let Kyouko live here, mainly because we don't have any alternate players to choose from. In addition, given what I already know, her role is implausible. (Also if she's town I get to nae nae on Koba)

If scum!Kyouko, then killing her is the best outcome (since we don't have any reliable way to tell vanilla scum from PR scum)
If town!Kyouko, then we shatter the current townblock and cast suspicion at the masons until their heads fall off.

i dont like this for several reasons but dont have time to expand now - later

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im not succeeding at being agreeable, as pretty much everyone has disagreed with me so far, perhaps because my opinions are too controversial! thanks for complement tho, maybe i will live with my name as my motto

im ok with dying today though if there are no better options - just want my last request to do a final readslist before the hammer

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VOTE: Cookie
Why are we doing this

i'm a fine elim today to be honest (just a VT), although I won't self-vote obviously. couldn't have been much more off the mark yesterday, so needs a bit of re-think - but if I'm being policied, it doesn't matter.

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the logic for me being town is essentially that cookie-scum wouldn't be that fussed about fighting the overwhelming tide (koba and norway) to save a 1-shot PR who was odds against to survive 1 day, let alone the game. but there is justifiably a presumption towards elimming players who oppose a scum elim, and the prevailing meta doesn't always take us beyond that (which is why bussing works).

but the necessaries aside, we're still in good shape if we get me out of the way today.

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Also with neighbors claimed im gonna retract masons but like we're blatant enough town so hey

Oh ok. I thought we would keep going with it.

oh wow, that's weird. seems unlikely 2 experienced players would lie about their roles for no reason as town, so safe to say at least 1 could be scum here unless that's something they have form for. which is possible i guess, given the number of players who assumed they were lying yesterday for some reason. eh...maybe norway-mafia and koba-town, although lots to unpick there. Surely it can't be as easy as koba and norway as the rest of the mafia team! koba doing a crazy gambit as town and norway-scum pretending it was true to get some protection makes sense with the play yesterday and the quotes above.

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Your thoughts on who the scum are please.

i dont think my thoughts are too important to you really. but i'd guess more scum on-wagon than off-wagon given how the day ran. definitely not sharing the Almost50 locktown vibe. I think Titus play still seems weird to me, but I need to go back and re-read some of the interactions knowing what we know now about the flip, to confirm my final reads.

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Ok, my scumread on Cool Cookie just came back strong after an initial moment of doubt.

is that because i called attention to you in my preceding post? there is a sophistry in mafia about choosing your spots wisely - but not my skillset. i just say the truth as it is.

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im not succeeding at being agreeable, as pretty much everyone has disagreed with me so far, perhaps because my opinions are too controversial! thanks for complement tho, maybe i will live with my name as my motto

im ok with dying today though if there are no better options - just want my last request to do a final readslist before the hammer

Can someone tell me why Cookie thinks they are getting hammered? I just don't believe the sob story.

it wasnt a sob story - someone jokes that i was really agreeable, and so i responded. i wasnt expecting to be around much before deadline and as I'm only a VT, it would have been ok to elim me.

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Or did you expect me to say: "No Dkkoba, we are not masons! Now please stop wagoning me and vote SSB!"
Does that seem smart to you when i was close to 100% convinced Dkkoba was town and SSB was scum?

Also you brought up a ton of really bad arguments, i don't care if you caught attention on me. But you literally say things like: "There was no reason for two experienced players to lie about their roles yesterday". My fucking ass it was. Did you see how hard it was to fucking kill SSB? Dkkoba claiming mason with me is literally the only way we'd get town to listen.

im sure you are a big individual who can take a little heat! In hindsight, you fakeclaimed yesterday to get yourself off the chopping block - it wasn't really anything to do with SSB. now you've been outted it begs the question again of why you are nearly 100% confident koba is town, which you couldn't defend yesterday. I think whichever way you cut it, it doesn't look good for you in my opinion. generally townies should only lie if they have a good game-advancing reason, not just to save their own skin. and especially to lie and fake confirm another player is a really crazy play for town which could even throw the game if you're wrong. but i think you are a very established and sensible player who would know better than that.

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The "Make Norwee and Koba doubt each other" tactic is not going to work mate. Not for one second.

i think mafia could be just a game of logic and reasoning - defending your positions with arguments. nobody can do much of value with "I'm near 100% sure koba is town, but i can't share my reason" or even a well-intentioned "i have solid meta this player is mafia despite the case objectively not being so strong". my opinion doesnt mean much, but it's worth saying that if you're not a mason, you probably don't know each other's alignment for sure unless you're both mafia. it would be farcical to take anything as a given beyond that - many games are lost because people can't revisit their reads. no dirty tactics here, just an observation about fact vs belief.

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my gun-to-head scumread would be Almost50 I think. only on the elim wagon by coincidence (a semi-random vote which never moved), and the interaction between Almost50 and kyouko preceding that vote was a little too familiar. also Almost50 was at pains today to profess self as locktown, despite the above and not being a vocal proponent of the wagon, which seems a little desperate. also i think Almost50-scum means Ranny-town, which is helpful info.

that may be my last words, so good luck town!

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In hindsight, you fakeclaimed yesterday to get yourself off the chopping block

I didn't. It wasn't even my idea. If you doubt me so much. Why don't you ask why Koba why they would take the risk in fake claiming mason with an player they didn't technically know the alignment off?
Maybe you should just trust them on this one?

You admitted already that you went along with it though, and the proof is in the thread. your claim is that you chose not to be honest, and the direct results of your dishonesty was you saving your own life.

I think koba is a renegade and might have a personality which likes to do crazy things. also looking at koba's approach on Day 1, I can see a blind spot towards those who go along with koba's own opinion so I would always take that with a big pinch of something.

But the short answer is no, I wouldn't blindly trust someone (who may even be mafia themselves) who claims someone is confirmed town without a good reason. that is not good play for a town.

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Why is that your last words.

i think we have generally agreed I would be a good elimination today, so according to the rules I won't be able to post once I've died according to the rules.

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I wonder a little bit if your questions are superficial. even when you asked me my reads you later admitted you didnt care for them. so i think you are bad-faithing me a bit here Norwegianboy

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I wonder a little bit if your questions are superficial. even when you asked me my reads you later admitted you didnt care for them. so i think you are bad-faithing me a bit here Norwegianboy

No, i'm just wrestling with whether you are scum or town going back at it with the bad scumreads on me like you had pre-mason claim.

Something i'd never do if i was scum btw.

i'm sure you could pretend to do it as scum, which is what i'd already posited you appear to be doing here. asking questions is easy, but town ask genuine questions they want to know the answers to. i can always be proven wrong though

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Also an extreme lack of partner analyzis in regards to me is causing me to wonder why your reads are like this. So you bring up that you scumread A50 because they had what you perceived as awkward partnery behaviour with the flipped scum. (SSB)
But when talking about me you don't even mention my interactions with SSB or how they causate to the game but only focus on completely irrelevant topics at hand to explain why i could possibly be scum.

we can only do so much with finite time my friend. i dont realistically think you're going to be eliminated any time soon, so my comments on you are mostly to raise a flag that i think you are worth keeping an eye on. Almost50 seems more to be somebody who town could actually eliminate tomorrow. but yeah, i cant really say much more about a comparison between the two. a simplistic take would be that you pushed hard on SSB because koba did - you could do that as town or scum so the partner interaction may be less noteworthy.

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On the one hand, i think your arguments are sowing seeds that will come back to haunt the town because they are misleading and wrong. But on the other hand i don't really think you'd be ok with getting elimmed if scum here. It could be just pretending, but i'm gonna roll with my next on the PoE for now.

VOTE: Nero Cain

tbh as soon as i saw the flip i was like "ah shit, i'm getting it tomorrow then". and better to just elim me than out a power role - we are already in a good position.

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Why would you even claim vengeful at any point.

it could be a deterrent to getting eliminated. or might just be a genuine roleclaim.

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Why would you even claim vengeful at any point.

it could be a deterrent to getting eliminated. or might just be a genuine roleclaim.

They wasn't under pressure so the timing of the claim is odd as well.

true, gut says Titus would have more staying power as a legit vengeful if it was a role which particularly excited. also not sure acting scummy and obtrusive is even the best way to determine a good shot.

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i dont think im clear unless i got cop checked or something?

i feel bad for Charlemagne - makes reasonable points, but my gut feeling is maybe the slot was always scum.

time to ride VOTE: charlemagne

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NorwegianboyEE has died. Their role was

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

It is now Day 3

oh wow, mafia team falling apart here

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I'm happy with this. Ranny replacement today, LQ tomorrow, and if game not over, we can re-evaluate (I have a couple of thoughts on that from a fresh look overnight, but may not be needed!).

VOTE: Dorsey

also, good to break the stats of only mafia hammering - yeah i see you dwlee

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also, slightly guilty if Dorsey caught up and never got to post, but that's the way the cookie crumbles

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I could swing the hammer (I could swing a lot of things) but since there is no doubt of it happening I will let you choose the pace.

thank you for letting me choose the pace