Mini 2241: The Neighborhood -- ENDGAME

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yo

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Trying to decide which of us is going to play this game.

In the mean time, someone want to catch us up?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In the mean time, someone want to catch us up?

what kind of a breakdown do you want, just the gist of wagons that have happened so far and the reasons for them/against them?

give me everything you got

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I will be more engaged when I feel more strongly about things. Right now I don't even feel completely solid forming a poe so I'm just kinda trudging along

C'mon dwlee, perk up.

VOTE: dwlee

Too early to be demoralized.

No

It isn't demoralized btw, it's just a lack of strong feels

Feeling a little down that your easy elimination for later got replaced with someone notoriously difficult to murder?

I get it, it's okay. The scum QT must be really quiet for you to be this sad out here though.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I have dwlee at townlean if that helps

Not really as much as I'd like it to, cause I have you at "oh god the pooky alarms are going off"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

VOTE: LLD
I'll consolidate when I have to but I want bragging rights of having my vote on scum D1

?????

Her content on replace in is scummy

so there's like two posts I'd deem content

can you elaborate?

Eyy, Dannflor bleeding town, let's go.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hey guys, want to actually revive this game instead of letting it become a status quo slog?

Let's flash wagon Dwlee for their recent vote and posting. If they don't want to give answers, we can just kill them.

Isn't that the old adage?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Pooky, blood pact?

Blood for the Blood Gods?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I will be more engaged when I feel more strongly about things. Right now I don't even feel completely solid forming a poe so I'm just kinda trudging along

C'mon dwlee, perk up.

VOTE: dwlee

Too early to be demoralized.

No

It isn't demoralized btw, it's just a lack of strong feels

Feeling a little down that your easy elimination for later got replaced with someone notoriously difficult to murder?

I get it, it's okay. The scum QT must be really quiet for you to be this sad out here though.

This one actually bad though (I just had to post that image)

That's not elaboration, that's pointing.

What about this post is bad, Dwlee?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I've decided I'm playing this game~. Name's Aisling.

So, flash wagons? Blood god? Let's fucking revive this game, shall we?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You went 0 to 100 on literally nothing

I poked you about a feeling I was getting from you. It's a weak feeling, but the real goal was to see your reaction.

Your reaction was to ask if I meant someone else, when I hadn't even read the game, to the point where Pooky had to point out I obviously meant myself.

Which to me, reads like you were feigning ignorance for a reaction dodge.

That's scummy.

Also, more importantly, what's scummy about going 0 to 100 on a replace in with 0 pressure on me?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Cause in my mind, replacing into a slot that isn't dying today and going 0 to 100 to try and generate reads feels like what a town replacement does this close to deadline, where as a scum replacement would probably sit back, read the scum QT, slowly churn the game and help kill a townie today, unless you think all 3 of the top wagons are on scum?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It isn't that you went 0 to 100 producing content, you went 0 to 100 being aggressive towards for after I hardly FoS'd you

Yea, that's scummy

I went 0 to 100 when you gave 3 names with 0 reason for them being scummy, and then when asked about it, defended yourself with

"I'm demoralized"

"I don't really have confidence"

That's scummy my dude. To put out names like that and then deflect questions with how demotivated you are just furthers apathy in this game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The argument that I with 0 votes on me and 3 days looming to deadline somehow felt the pressure to respond to you because you said my name is... ludicrous logic that makes no sense with how anyone would play, let alone someone who is as good at scum as you appear to think I am, given your statement about the vote on me.

So in what world does scum make that move to you, Dwlee? What's the scum motivation, if you're calling it scummy?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I was asked for three names

Fuck off

Why are you upset? I'm not insulting you or attacking you, I'm pointing out flaws in your logic. Will you answer my questions, or is "fuck off" your resignation that you have no answer and I'm pushing at something you didn't expect to get pushed on?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, and more importantly, you were asked for 3 scum reads. Part of why people do this is to evaluate what others are thinking.

Your post makes it very clear what you took that as. "I was asked for 3 names, I didn't expect to get challenged on it".

So you had no reasons, because those weren't real reads because you fabricated them.

They were fabricated easy reads and your defense was "I just don't know".

Why are the other people on that list scum, Dwlee?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD, Gamma, *sees 1189* House

What was so bad about 1189, Dwlee?

Why is Gamma scum, Dwlee?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because you're misrepping what happened by framing it as just giving 0 names with 0 reasoning. This is the exact thing I'd expect you to do as scum if one of your buddies was close to elimination. You also act unaware that your tone here is condescending af and that I should be completely chill with how you're talking to me

How am I misrepresenting you when you have no post that explains your positions, and I'm actively asking you to explain your positions?

Are you just using that word as a buzzword to try and flail out of this push?

I can't misrepresent what doesn't exist, and if I am misrepresenting you, you have a very easy way to prove me wrong!

Answer my questions instead of flailing like this.

Why is House scum?

Why is post 1189 scummy?

Why is Gamma scum?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Pooky, blood pact?

Blood for the Blood Gods?

I'm always down to sheep you if you get to a high confidence level read

I'm not 100% there yet, but I do want to revive this game and well.

Instead of biasing you, I want you to read Dwlee's recent posting and explain to me whether your townlean remains the same, or has changed.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I didn't have a third, House just asked to be on the list

Gamma I've already talked about how I don't think he is trying to sort me

So to recap, your list of three names are:

Someone who asked to be on the list (No reasoning, no real scum read given)

Someone who just replaced in and has no content, so it has to be a read on my predecessor, which you have yet to explain.

And "Gamma isn't trying to sort me".


Okay, let's work with the one out of three we can actually focus on since it has content.

In what way is Gamma failing to sort you, Dwlee? Can you point to posts and conversations between the two of you where this occurs? Remember, I've not really back read, so if you're trying to convince me, now would be the time.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

my only game with dwlee-scum he sounded like a brick so I have a very low opinion of his scum game lol

I mean, he's not putting up much resistance here. He's just yelling that I COULD be scum doing this pressure, and so therefor I must be, despite the obvious good townie reasons that exist for it.

and his scumreads are non existant upon pressure. The only one is Gamma and I'm gonna wait and see if that has any merit or if it's a similar aimless push to the one he is now doing on me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Read LLD's posts, she is posting specifically to piss me off

That's strictly untrue. I'm posting to interrogate you because I think you're scum, and I want to show it to others.

But I'm new in the game and I want information too, and recognize my first gut read can infact be wrong.

Hence the pressure.

That you are arguing that I'm posting "specifically to piss you off" is a very bad faith assumption of me, that is not only untrue, but also attempts once again to dodge the real questions I'm asking.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is the same exact shit scum have done to me multiple times late day one with their buddy being wagoned. The entire time and everything is a scum push

Pedit: probably duck?

Just duck? How is this relative to your other reads lol

Follow up question: Why is The Worst connected to me? You gave a name, so I assume you have a reason for that name over the others. What actions have I, or my predecessor, taken that would give you the impression that the Worst and my slot are aligned?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is the same exact shit scum have done to me multiple times late day one with their buddy being wagoned. The entire time and everything is a scum push

Pedit: probably duck?

Just duck? How is this relative to your other reads lol

Also hey, how are you, didn't realize you were in this game. Is this okay?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Duck is scummiest out of MC, Navi, Duck, so that's the name

No LLD, you're waterfalling me with condescending statements

I'm on mobile and you expect me to answer like three questions every post you make

You're welcome to take your time in answering them. I'm not setting any arbitrary limit on you, besides "the end of the day".

Also, you're the one present in thread and interacting. Am I meant to assume you're not as available?

Also also, in what way am I being condescending to you? I'm asking interrogatory questions, certainly, which are pointed at you because I think you're scum, but I'm not trying to be remotely condescending. And normally, I'd just apologize for making you feel this way, but this is a social deception game.

Which means you could be using this statement as a way to gain sympathy from others and prevent yourself from dying.

so I need to ask in what way are my posts condescending?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is the same exact shit scum have done to me multiple times late day one with their buddy being wagoned. The entire time and everything is a scum push

Pedit: probably duck?

Just duck? How is this relative to your other reads lol

Also hey, how are you, didn't realize you were in this game. Is this okay?

Yes, as long as it's okay with you.

I've got no problem at all. I've mostly been giving you space as opposed to needing it myself? Well, maybe at first we did.

It's complicated, but no, we like you and are happy to play with you. We just wanted to check it was okay with you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Duck is scummiest out of MC, Navi, Duck, so that's the name

No LLD, you're waterfalling me with condescending statements

I'm on mobile and you expect me to answer like three questions every post you make

Also, okay, let's have ONE question to answer then, shall we? If that will help.

Why is Duck scummier than MC and Navi?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is the same exact shit scum have done to me multiple times late day one with their buddy being wagoned. The entire time and everything is a scum push

Pedit: probably duck?

Just duck? How is this relative to your other reads lol

Also hey, how are you, didn't realize you were in this game. Is this okay?

Yes, as long as it's okay with you.

I've got no problem at all. I've mostly been giving you space as opposed to needing it myself? Well, maybe at first we did.

It's complicated, but no, we like you and are happy to play with you. We just wanted to check it was okay with you.

Water under the bridge, friends

<3

Let's talk later, if you're up for it. No pressure, of course.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I’m not sure that litigating this specific point is the best use of either of your time at the moment

I happen to agree.

What's your read on Dwlee? Because at this point, I'm seeing a lot of possible faked anger, starting from the initial fuck off to now, that I think might be AtE deflection.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think you should compile your evidence instead of tacking it on through practice

If your conviction is strong enough on LLD, I'm willing to listen. I just don't know if I believe it given how circumstantial it is?

My evidence is that every single time someone pushes me in this way they've been scum. Pooky in Dogs v Cats, Menalque in Dead Silence, Guillotina in MT 2225, goats in white flag, probably others I'm forgetting.

That's... not remotely evidence.

Also, we have Pooky in this game to speak to about this.

Pooky, in your experience in Dogs vs. Cats, am I pushing the same way you were?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean I'm not a meta person but this is also exactly what LLD did in Yggdrasil to Murdercat while he protested that she was obviously scum and we didn't believe him cause she had bussed day one

Okay now this is a flat out lie.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I’m sorry to pile on the questions here, but I have to ask, why did you assume this initial post by LLD was like 100% serious? I’m not saying it wasn’t but I don’t think that would’ve been my first reaction

I don't think it comes across as a joke at all. The tone is completely serious

Ehhhh I don’t mean a joke necessarily

Just like I feel there is definitely some hyperbole here that she is using to poke at you, she didn’t assume you were 100% scum off those two posts as she has self admitted

I guess I’m just struggling to see what your initial problem was because to me it just reads like she’s poking at you

This is a correct assessment of my intentions. I just wanted to see the reaction.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I’m not sure that litigating this specific point is the best use of either of your time at the moment

I happen to agree.

What's your read on Dwlee? Because at this point, I'm seeing a lot of possible faked anger, starting from the initial fuck off to now, that I think might be AtE deflection.

I’ll get back to you on my read, they’ve been heavily null territory for the bulk of the game

I think regardless of alignment their emotion here is real, whether incredulous town or scum caught for the wrong reasons

mmm, you don't think it's being generated for this purpose of outrage?

Though, I suppose it could be generated for that and also be real...

Fair enough.

I've reached the end point of the usefulness of interrogating Dwlee, I'd rather have others examine this exchange and give their own views on it. Fresh content, as it were.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Subject: Yggdrasil - Stratum FINAL -

so wait, where is your scum LLD read from if not from thinking she was bussing?

My LLD read developed well before that and comes from the fact that LLD hasn't once given me the benefit of the doubt except for one moment with morph that I read as very fake. LLD has continued to push me in a way that I find very opportunistic, and her read on me only started when I revealed that I was scum reading LLD. In other words, if I'm the only townie that thinks that scum LLD is scum I am a good target to push and she has continued to push me with no deeper thought behind whether she believes she is correct.

Compare this to this game where I have

Asked you questions

given you the benefit of the doubt in terms of wanting to explain your reads

asked others for their opinion on you

and actively tried to sort you

just because I've ended up on "you look scummy" doesn't mean that I'm doing what I did to MC that game, which was deny MC access to all their allies by boxing them out and painting them with a broad bad brush every chance I got.

Which is... actually not remotely what like I'm doing here, given you have more than enough attempts to prove yourself from my questions and interrogation?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think you should compile your evidence instead of tacking it on through practice

If your conviction is strong enough on LLD, I'm willing to listen. I just don't know if I believe it given how circumstantial it is?

My evidence is that every single time someone pushes me in this way they've been scum. Pooky in Dogs v Cats, Menalque in Dead Silence, Guillotina in MT 2225, goats in white flag, probably others I'm forgetting.

That's... not remotely evidence.

Also, we have Pooky in this game to speak to about this.

Pooky, in your experience in Dogs vs. Cats, am I pushing the same way you were?

It actually feels more like D1 of Yggradasil when you decided to rescue one scum buddy by yeeting another scum buddy cuz u figured if you were going to lose a bad guy to us on d1 u might as well get something for it.

Oh really?

so you'll help me bus Dwlee, then Pooky?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, and one more thing? I didn't play in Yggdrasil at all. I wasn't there. You're talking about a different person.

Which makes the comparison a bit more funny.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

think my read on dwlee comes out closer to townlean from the interaction?

@LLD

i recognize that i said that people were demotivated, but the wagon on the worst was starting to gain some momentum right before you did that. did you see that was happening and think that the game was still dead?

Yes. The Worst felt like an apathy "eh, sure" wagon. Even if we end on the Worst, I wanted to create new data for people to parse.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

How would you handle this situation differently if you were actually scum Dwlee? The questions are piling up but like

The floor is all yours right now lol

Probably similarly cause I'd be mimicking my reaction to this in the past. My goal would be to just not get in this situation which I would do by not picking a fight with LLD

I know that you know people have visibly used this argument enough times and seen it work a few for you to understand that

"picking a fight with LLD" is no longer an alignment indicative action that scum are afraid to do. Scum know that it can be argued it's easier to just ignore me, so they pick the fight anyway to hide under it.

This statement holds nothing but air.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think i want microwaved duck for d1

I recognize we have 2 days but why are you cutting this short?

I also think I want The Worst dead for what they've done in this discussion, I think they're hovering at the outside a bit too much for a townie, but...

we could have gotten so much more, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think I want LLD dead.

Vibes come off as more "trying to get people to agree with me" instead of "try to accurately sort a slot"

It turns out that I need to do both in a game of mafia as town to be successful? Like yes, I'll cop to wanting to have people agree with me, or at least ask people questions to see where they stand.

But I am also sorting, and it turns out I can do both at once.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think I want LLD dead.

Vibes come off as more "trying to get people to agree with me" instead of "try to accurately sort a slot"

her way of sorting is to tie a noose around your neck and keep tightening it until you die or towntell lol

It's true, lol.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I recognize we have 2 days but why are you cutting this short?

im not particularly in a rush, otherwise i would be asking everyone to duckpile on and get a claim.
if this is an extension of what you think my question was for, i was asking it equally to see what your intentions were as well as your read on the gamestate at that moment when you decided to go after dwlee.

No the question is fine, I was talking about the statement you made after.

The question continued the line of process. The statement...

Man IDK, we had so much more to explore. And now people like that Azumaril person aren't really going to feel any form of concern to do anything, you know?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think I want LLD dead.

Vibes come off as more "trying to get people to agree with me" instead of "try to accurately sort a slot"

her way of sorting is to tie a noose around your neck and keep tightening it until you die or towntell lol

Alright but she should get some material to make the noose out of first

She's making it out of nothing is what it looks like now

I just joined the game literally less than 24 hours ago, and I've not read anything before when I replaced in. I'm working on what I have, and what I have is some really weak Dwlee posts that contain little reasoning and seem to engender the same apathy into the game I am concerned about existing.

I think that's more than enough to begin with, frankly.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I recognize we have 2 days but why are you cutting this short?

im not particularly in a rush, otherwise i would be asking everyone to duckpile on and get a claim.
if this is an extension of what you think my question was for, i was asking it equally to see what your intentions were as well as your read on the gamestate at that moment when you decided to go after dwlee.

No the question is fine, I was talking about the statement you made after.

The question continued the line of process. The statement...

Man IDK, we had so much more to explore. And now people like that Azumaril person aren't really going to feel any form of concern to do anything, you know?

I don't follow

Mostly I wanted to switch to interrogating you a little, because I wanted to see if I could develop a read there too. I had a ping of something, but it's hard to build the fire now that things are a bit more died down.

The ping was that you were town, ftr. I feel like coming into this place after the whole fight with Dwlee and having that take is very town. It's not something I think is correct, but you're town for thinking it, at least IMO.

Though, again, would have liked to interrogate you to get a stronger sense of it and not base it on one thing

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Man IDK, we had so much more to explore. And now people like that Azumaril person aren't really going to feel any form of concern to do anything, you know?

i try not to get it twisted over not having the entire game solved on any given day early on.
if theres a strong scumread then going after it is probably more productive than worrying about trying to sort every slot in the game on D1.

It's not about doing a full solve, it's about generating as much info as I can in these last moments where there's time crunch and stress so that when we look back tomorrow it's not a slog to read and it wasn't just apathy "meh" death.

There's takes from multiple slots that are fresh that people can interact with.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

but im not going to get in your way if you want to keep shaking things to see what comes loose?
im a little confused as to why you even felt the need to acknowledge my post as having some kind of unique weight when you could just ignore it and keep pushing people if thats what you wanted to do.

Because you're my strongest town read and I feel like you have some level of town leadership currently, and I want to poke you about doing things when you have that much power and I am decently confident you're town?

lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like in my mind in your position you should have joined me shaking something else new loose for a bit, before returning to the worst if you still felt that way. Through your weight around, as it were.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because you're my strongest town read and I feel like you have some level of town leadership currently, and I want to poke you about doing things when you have that much power and I am decently confident you're town?

lol

i think you probably could have just convinced me to help you wagon people though?
like just a flat out "hey please help me pressure this person i think they are mafia because of X i would like to be more centered on this player" and i feel like the game could have just proceeded rather than whatever this current state of affairs is right now q_q

cause from my POV im just like, im not really townreading your slot and i cant really read your mind about what you do or dont want with the current gamestate, so im just.. idk confused as to why that was an expectation?

I mean, idk. I feel like there's a level of if you understand the game has an apathy problem and I spoke on wanting to stop apathy...

don't worry about it

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think I want LLD dead.

Vibes come off as more "trying to get people to agree with me" instead of "try to accurately sort a slot"

her way of sorting is to tie a noose around your neck and keep tightening it until you die or towntell lol

Alright but she should get some material to make the noose out of first

She's making it out of nothing is what it looks like now

I just joined the game literally less than 24 hours ago, and I've not read anything before when I replaced in. I'm working on what I have, and what I have is some really weak Dwlee posts that contain little reasoning and seem to engender the same apathy into the game I am concerned about existing.

I think that's more than enough to begin with, frankly.

I'm not convinced you are really reading the conversation and are going after someone in spite of context. I don't think you really care what Dwlee is saying.

Spoiler: Evidence

LLD, Gamma, *sees 1189* House

What was so bad about 1189, Dwlee?

Why is Gamma scum, Dwlee?

You would know the actual situation if you had taken 5 seconds to look at the post that Dwlee has mentioned. The fact you didn't tells you don't really care about the question you are asking and its answer.

How would you handle this situation differently if you were actually scum Dwlee? The questions are piling up but like

The floor is all yours right now lol

Probably similarly cause I'd be mimicking my reaction to this in the past. My goal would be to just not get in this situation which I would do by not picking a fight with LLD

I know that you know people have visibly used this argument enough times and seen it work a few for you to understand that

"picking a fight with LLD" is no longer an alignment indicative action that scum are afraid to do. Scum know that it can be argued it's easier to just ignore me, so they pick the fight anyway to hide under it.

This statement holds nothing but air.

This wasn't supposed to be a defense but a response to a question. It feels like you are breaking open a random rock in order to say that the wall of Dwlee's defense is weak.

I know why he said House's name. The goal was to have it spoken out loud, and give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he's saying House because he thoguht that asking was scummy. I didn't know which it was. It's worth asking. As for the Gamma thing, I haven't back read and I said that, so I asked. What about any of that is scummy?

As for the other one, the question was "What would you do if you were scum?" which is inherently a defense of why, given they didn't do that THIS TIME they are clearly town?

Which is why I responded to it like a defense.

How would that not be a defense, Meg?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

not only does Aisling have a read and want it to be heard, but MORE IMPORTANTLY they are doing so because they are TOWN and the game is STAGNATING close to DEADLINE and we need more DATA!!! join Aisling in their RIGHTEOUS CAUSE!!!! to save the game from STAGNATION!!!!!!!!

(may i please check pronouns for Aisling?)

You don't get to make the first post and then ask the second one. Like we just had a whole discussion of good faith bad faith, and I feel I've acted in good faith.

You going around parading and doing a mockery of me and playing "Dumb guy" to insult my intelligence, then asking my pronouns?

Like, no. Seriously go away.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean, idk. I feel like there's a level of if you understand the game has an apathy problem and I spoke on wanting to stop apathy...

don't worry about it

im not a very smart person.
if you want me to do something you hit me in the head with a stick and say "go do thing".
i get where youre coming from, but i dont really play mafia on that kind of level past RVS for better or for worse.

as a player/general agent of chaos i'd be interested in a kazyan wagon but i think i'm at the point where my heart isn't in it unless one of my reads flips around again or i'm just like.. epicly wrong abt something

i kind of dont really want a kazyan wagon for a combination of selfish reasons of being uncomfortable with the personal responsibility of having derailed the gamestate to go after my personal pet project scumread that nobody agrees with and also because i think it will be really bad for gamestate to be wrong on kazyan in a way it wont be for other flips.

I feel like I remember you in games and you're smarter than you're giving yourself credit for, but fair enough, I'll just ask next time.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't disagree with LLD's take, this game has been teetering for some time.

I don't think Dwlee's responses are great? I don't know if I'm entirely sold on it being scum though. I feel like I would just vote mcat here because his own defense is markedly explaining things that should've came before. Meaning, I feel the equivalent of an eye roll from his recent posts.

I accomplished what I set out to do, now it's just a matter of using the spark to tend to the flame and not letting it putter out again.

Which given we have 2 days before night shouldn't be an issue I think?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

not only does Aisling have a read and want it to be heard, but MORE IMPORTANTLY they are doing so because they are TOWN and the game is STAGNATING close to DEADLINE and we need more DATA!!! join Aisling in their RIGHTEOUS CAUSE!!!! to save the game from STAGNATION!!!!!!!!

(may i please check pronouns for Aisling?)

You don't get to make the first post and then ask the second one. Like we just had a whole discussion of good faith bad faith, and I feel I've acted in good faith.

You going around parading and doing a mockery of me and playing "Dumb guy" to insult my intelligence, then asking my pronouns?

Like, no. Seriously go away.

first one is a game take, second one is just, like.. asking a question. settle petal.

The first one is actively insulting to me.

It's like if I did:

iM jUsT aSkInG a QuEsTiOn 4head

that's not an okay thing to do, and following it up with a pronoun question (my pronouns are on my account) is just not okay.

And then telling me to "settle petal" when I have a real grievance with your behaviour, instead of addressing it (see how I addressed it with Dwlee) is also super not okay.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like i'm sorry that your replace in has been pushing a borderline nonsensical read and then yelling that you are doing so not because it's a real considered read from a game you've read, but because you want data. like that's transparent as fuck and i'm not picking up what you're putting down. you kinda deserved to be mocked for hamfisting your rep-in.

Oh, so we're doing mockery for fun now?

That's the type of game we're playing?

Kay.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i'm just going to play around you because you're being a caricature and i don't think i need to sink my time into that.

i would really appreciate a pronoun check if you're ok with that, but this is the last time i'll labour the point.

I'm not being a caricature. You're literally just insulting me. I'm not putting on some kind of extra ritz.

Once again, my pronouns are in 2 different places this game. In the vote counts and on my profile.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The only high ground you ever had was the fucking blunts you're smoking right now

Are you talking to me?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like you're not meaningfully advancing the game. you're loudly virtue signalling that you're here to advance the game. you're called out, and you're actively unpleasant. what's your game here?

In what way am I actively unpleasant, or is this another personal crack?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

not only does Aisling have a read and want it to be heard, but MORE IMPORTANTLY they are doing so because they are TOWN and the game is STAGNATING close to DEADLINE and we need more DATA!!! join Aisling in their RIGHTEOUS CAUSE!!!! to save the game from STAGNATION!!!!!!!!

(may i please check pronouns for Aisling?)

You don't get to make the first post and then ask the second one. Like we just had a whole discussion of good faith bad faith, and I feel I've acted in good faith.

You going around parading and doing a mockery of me and playing "Dumb guy" to insult my intelligence, then asking my pronouns?

Like, no. Seriously go away.

first one is a game take, second one is just, like.. asking a question. settle petal.

The first one is actively insulting to me.

It's like if I did:

iM jUsT aSkInG a QuEsTiOn 4head

that's not an okay thing to do, and following it up with a pronoun question (my pronouns are on my account) is just not okay.

And then telling me to "settle petal" when I have a real grievance with your behaviour, instead of addressing it (see how I addressed it with Dwlee) is also super not okay.

Emphasizing the fact you are overusing buzz words is a lot different than the mocking tone in that hyptohetical. On that note everything you seem to be doing seems almost hyperbolized, for lack of a better term.

Also recognizing your common play as scum is not a defense since you knowing your scum gameplay can be used to subvert expectations.

In what way are the words Righteous Cause, More importantly and Town buzzwords?

Note that I don't think I've said any of those in my arguments, especially not the first one.

So how exactly is that talking about me using buzzwords and not just making fun of me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like you're not meaningfully advancing the game. you're loudly virtue signalling that you're here to advance the game. you're called out, and you're actively unpleasant. what's your game here?

In what way am I actively unpleasant, or is this another personal crack?

noting that's the part of the question that relates the least to your alignment

Nah dude I'm not playing with alignment stuff right now because I've got beef.

I've been trying to be pleasant and not be angry this game, and you're making fun of me and then tone policing me when I tell you I'm upset.

I'm pretty far from okay with you rn, so I'm trying to figure out if this is some personal bullshit or if you're just insensitive.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The fact you are saying you aren't using buzzwords by bringing up the least buzz-iest emphasized words doesn't really help your case.

Yes, I brought up the ones that aren't buzzwords as an example of how that isn't what was being done there.

Also, please go find the posts in which I use buzzwords, noting that pointing at the deadline is not a buzzword, it's an observation as I replace into a game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

you're not using buzzwords imo. your play is just really cliche.

i'm perpetually sensitive and i'm trying to decide if i need to take a stroll because you're legitimately under my skin.

I'm the one under YOUR skin, while you are still insulting me.

Like I'm literally biting back rude remarks and you're just being a jerk.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I can confirm that your pronoun question is not something I consider part of the game, and my issue with your post where I said you were doing the dumb guy act was also not part of the game.

None of my current interactions with you, Worst, are game related. I am taking issue with your behaviour not being okay in an out of game sense, and how you keep insulting me in a way I have never done to anyone in this game, with any of my posts.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, your behaviour was and is not okay and you doing this thing where you talk about how you're the one bothered about X and Y and Z when you were the one who did all the harms to me and I've been explicitly attempting to avoid any form of retaliation. Is also not okay with me.

That's the last I'll say on it. I don't wanna keep dragging this out.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

or they r just scum together like ive been saying all week lol

Who and Who?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

for example in Radio Buzz, both replacements on D1 were scumbags

here we have 2 replacements as well.

I’m for the LLD elim but if you try to push this on me you’ve got another thing coming

I wish I was more surprised you are misreading me, but it honestly feels like a growing pattern these days.

I also wish these were the old days where you could agree to die and the town might actually listen to you when you're dead, cause I'd totally trade myself for someone at this point, but... there's no way that's happening.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@house
what's the positive motive you see? genuine question; i'm v much not above having missed something. if i remove my frustrations etc. then i'm still left with like.. a charitable read of very null, i think

I mean, just because you don't think my methods are how you would play doesn't make my methods of finding scum less actively seeking for scum.

You seem to be under this impression that others play like you, and reading me based on that.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@house
what's the positive motive you see? genuine question; i'm v much not above having missed something. if i remove my frustrations etc. then i'm still left with like.. a charitable read of very null, i think

I mean, just because you don't think my methods are how you would play doesn't make my methods of finding scum less actively seeking for scum.

You seem to be under this impression that others play like you, and reading me based on that.

Like my goal was to apply pressure and generate reads and content from that. My motivations are townie, whether you believe they are effective or not.

Rather, I struggle to find where the scum motivation in my behaviour is, given as scum I could have played dead and let you die, Worst. You SPECIFICALLY can have that perspective, right?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

for example in Radio Buzz, both replacements on D1 were scumbags

here we have 2 replacements as well.

I’m for the LLD elim but if you try to push this on me you’ve got another thing coming

I wish I was more surprised you are misreading me, but it honestly feels like a growing pattern these days.

I also wish these were the old days where you could agree to die and the town might actually listen to you when you're dead, cause I'd totally trade myself for someone at this point, but... there's no way that's happening.

It’s more that I hadn’t seen your posting yet and was judging based on Loftwing’s play. You seem alright for now.

I can't really speak to Loftwing, obviously. >.>

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@house
what's the positive motive you see? genuine question; i'm v much not above having missed something. if i remove my frustrations etc. then i'm still left with like.. a charitable read of very null, i think

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I don't think there was any notice at all in the spat. It seemed more like an OOC argument than a game-related one.

Oh are you talking about the thing with the worst and not the thing with Dwlee?

I can be explicit again. My argument with the Worst is strictly Out of Game frustration. I said that a bunch.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@house
what's the positive motive you see? genuine question; i'm v much not above having missed something. if i remove my frustrations etc. then i'm still left with like.. a charitable read of very null, i think

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I don't think there was any notice at all in the spat. It seemed more like an OOC argument than a game-related one.

Oh are you talking about the thing with the worst and not the thing with Dwlee?

I can be explicit again. My argument with the Worst is strictly Out of Game frustration. I said that a bunch.

Scum can claim their anger at someone is not game-related. I just buy it in your case.

Okay but THAT would be angle shooting. Like, getting mad at someone for an out of game harm and then using that as a method to trick them? That's not okay and I don't really want that associated with me in any way.

It's one thing to feign anger or frustration at someone's play. But at something you are saying hurt you?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I want to flip LLD over the other viable wagons here because if LLD flips red, then I think that confirms Worst as town. I am convinced that the argument couldn't have been scum theater, if only because TSQ would have vetoed them when they considered in their PT.

... what?

That's... no. That would never happen on this website. Have you played in games where this has happened before?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean like "please don't break Rule 5", not mod-controlled actions

That's... also not....

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I haven't been in games where this has happened. If it's a pants-on-head speculation, then I take the L

It's not a thing. Moderators will never intervene in that way. The most they might do is warn individuals to tone it down an keep it civil, but any interaction between players is player decided, regardless of the rules.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

One of these days I will understand how Mafia games work

Takes time to learn, etc etc

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I find it hard to believe Kayzan came to that conclusion as scum, or if they did, it's a good play and I'm willing to lose to it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, and one more thing? I didn't play in Yggdrasil at all. I wasn't there. You're talking about a different person.

Which makes the comparison a bit more funny.

Which one did play in Yggdrasil?

I believe it was Niamh.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Spoiler:

I recognize we have 2 days but why are you cutting this short?

im not particularly in a rush, otherwise i would be asking everyone to duckpile on and get a claim.
if this is an extension of what you think my question was for, i was asking it equally to see what your intentions were as well as your read on the gamestate at that moment when you decided to go after dwlee.

No the question is fine, I was talking about the statement you made after.

The question continued the line of process. The statement...

Man IDK, we had so much more to explore. And now people like that Azumaril person aren't really going to feel any form of concern to do anything, you know?

I don't follow

I think I want LLD dead.

Vibes come off as more "trying to get people to agree with me" instead of "try to accurately sort a slot"

her way of sorting is to tie a noose around your neck and keep tightening it until you die or towntell lol

Alright but she should get some material to make the noose out of first

She's making it out of nothing is what it looks like now

I just joined the game literally less than 24 hours ago, and I've not read anything before when I replaced in. I'm working on what I have, and what I have is some really weak Dwlee posts that contain little reasoning and seem to engender the same apathy into the game I am concerned about existing.

I think that's more than enough to begin with, frankly.

I'm not convinced you are really reading the conversation and are going after someone in spite of context. I don't think you really care what Dwlee is saying.

Spoiler: Evidence

LLD, Gamma, *sees 1189* House

What was so bad about 1189, Dwlee?

Why is Gamma scum, Dwlee?

You would know the actual situation if you had taken 5 seconds to look at the post that Dwlee has mentioned. The fact you didn't tells you don't really care about the question you are asking and its answer.

How would you handle this situation differently if you were actually scum Dwlee? The questions are piling up but like

The floor is all yours right now lol

Probably similarly cause I'd be mimicking my reaction to this in the past. My goal would be to just not get in this situation which I would do by not picking a fight with LLD

I know that you know people have visibly used this argument enough times and seen it work a few for you to understand that

"picking a fight with LLD" is no longer an alignment indicative action that scum are afraid to do. Scum know that it can be argued it's easier to just ignore me, so they pick the fight anyway to hide under it.

This statement holds nothing but air.

This wasn't supposed to be a defense but a response to a question. It feels like you are breaking open a random rock in order to say that the wall of Dwlee's defense is weak.

not really up to digging out all the posts like, right now, but the dialouge around LLD's entrance/dwlee push and megazu's reaction would be a really fucking wonky bus decision. counterpoint within my mind is like, if i'm just wrong about LLD and she's town epic failing at the thread, she might be someone who looks like LHF so this might be opportunistic. atp i think LLD is just scum though so

A casual reminder that if you are infact town, your inability to read me is your bad play, and has nothing to do with me. Take responsibility for your own shit.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Spoiler:

I recognize we have 2 days but why are you cutting this short?

im not particularly in a rush, otherwise i would be asking everyone to duckpile on and get a claim.
if this is an extension of what you think my question was for, i was asking it equally to see what your intentions were as well as your read on the gamestate at that moment when you decided to go after dwlee.

No the question is fine, I was talking about the statement you made after.

The question continued the line of process. The statement...

Man IDK, we had so much more to explore. And now people like that Azumaril person aren't really going to feel any form of concern to do anything, you know?

I don't follow

I think I want LLD dead.

Vibes come off as more "trying to get people to agree with me" instead of "try to accurately sort a slot"

her way of sorting is to tie a noose around your neck and keep tightening it until you die or towntell lol

Alright but she should get some material to make the noose out of first

She's making it out of nothing is what it looks like now

I just joined the game literally less than 24 hours ago, and I've not read anything before when I replaced in. I'm working on what I have, and what I have is some really weak Dwlee posts that contain little reasoning and seem to engender the same apathy into the game I am concerned about existing.

I think that's more than enough to begin with, frankly.

I'm not convinced you are really reading the conversation and are going after someone in spite of context. I don't think you really care what Dwlee is saying.

Spoiler: Evidence

LLD, Gamma, *sees 1189* House

What was so bad about 1189, Dwlee?

Why is Gamma scum, Dwlee?

You would know the actual situation if you had taken 5 seconds to look at the post that Dwlee has mentioned. The fact you didn't tells you don't really care about the question you are asking and its answer.

How would you handle this situation differently if you were actually scum Dwlee? The questions are piling up but like

The floor is all yours right now lol

Probably similarly cause I'd be mimicking my reaction to this in the past. My goal would be to just not get in this situation which I would do by not picking a fight with LLD

I know that you know people have visibly used this argument enough times and seen it work a few for you to understand that

"picking a fight with LLD" is no longer an alignment indicative action that scum are afraid to do. Scum know that it can be argued it's easier to just ignore me, so they pick the fight anyway to hide under it.

This statement holds nothing but air.

This wasn't supposed to be a defense but a response to a question. It feels like you are breaking open a random rock in order to say that the wall of Dwlee's defense is weak.

not really up to digging out all the posts like, right now, but the dialouge around LLD's entrance/dwlee push and megazu's reaction would be a really fucking wonky bus decision. counterpoint within my mind is like, if i'm just wrong about LLD and she's town epic failing at the thread, she might be someone who looks like LHF so this might be opportunistic. atp i think LLD is just scum though so

A casual reminder that if you are infact town, your inability to read me is your bad play, and has nothing to do with me. Take responsibility for your own shit.

Talking about my perception of how Megazu is reading the thread there.

? How is "She's town epic failing at the thread" modifying Azumaril and not me?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I was annoyed about Dann saying Meg seemed townie because I think Meg's ISO sucks and their jump-ins are also not great. Just fanning the flames. They did it with me and they did it with LLD. How is that townie?

I kinda think Megazu is more interested in being assertive and polarising than looking good which is town probably - *throws dart* - 4 times out of 7?

How in the world can you hold this position about MegAzumaril and not about my play?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

kazyan, LLD, House, Navi, MCat,

I would like to vote one of these out today.
I feel like there's very good odds of hitting scum by picking one in this group at random (and we can probably do better than that)

Well Kazayn and House are both bleeding town in this game thread, and I haven't seen Navi or MCat yet, but... that's 3 of 5 who are town from my PoV, so we're already kind of in a bad way.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

honestly i don't think the lim is likely to go through without a claim and without a competing wagon rn. i've been talking the entire time - i'm free for a bit now, then kinda busy for the next few days. if you want something, i'd suggest

scrolling thru or ctrl+fing my iso

asking me now.

Honestly can't think of anything, just thought you'd jump at the opportunity of 'my wagon is wrong and I am a townie about to be sunk'

my wagon is probably mostly well-intended, but wrong. my work is already done - there's over a hundred posts of it. every time i've been able to be present i've delivered.

i get that we're probably dealing with a situation where several townies don't

quite

feel right about me, and are comfortable vanity voting me, but i'm not easy to take down and i will be making y'all feel awful for it. <3

I mean, consider my vote on you rn? I said before in a convo to Gork that I wanted to vote you prior to you and I getting into it, but I wanted to pressure elsewhere to get content. So consider yourself at L-1, for all intents and purposes.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean, consider my vote on you rn? I said before in a convo to Gork that I wanted to vote you prior to you and I getting into it, but I wanted to pressure elsewhere to get content. So consider yourself at L-1, for all intents and purposes.

This doesn't really surprise me since you don't seem all that keen on reading people's posts and engaging with content this game.

Gonna stick to talking to people who meet me half way. Don't mean this to be as snarky as it is, I just have no idea where to even start.

Going to casually remind you that your first engagement with me was mockery of me and insulting my intelligence, and now you're complaining that I'm not all that interested in engaging with you on your reads.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@gamma what, like.. are your reads? what do you think of the analysis we've done?

big fan of contrarianism but you're pretty present and i have no idea what you're trying to do.

My reads atp are like

Kazyan
Gork
unwnd

House
Pooky

LLD
Dann

Navi
mcat

tw
Dwlee
Meg

Swap Dann and Unwnd, and replace my name with yours and swap you and Pooky?

and that's my reads, basically.

Honestly, I guess that measn just swap Dann and unwnd. Dann is super bleeding town and Unwnd is... probably town?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is a selfish request but sometimes I think I have a better impression of slots if they gauge their read on me.

I'd like to know more (Worst/LLD) why you feel the way about my slot you do.

As if I'm going to put you higher than middle on day one in a game lke this with how you're playing?

I townread you, kinda. I'm putting you as high as I am currently comfortable doing because you're not like... I dunno, an innocent child, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We're close to 1 day.

Vote: The Worst

Elimination - 1 vote, for anyone who is reading.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

she doesn't engage w anything that's happening because if she's going down there's no point in putting out more associatives. putting me to e-1 as a TPR claim without evaluating anything else (incl. lack of meaningful counterwagon) isn't a townie.

You claimed a power role? when? I've been reading the thread, did I miss this?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

mmkay we have 36ish hours left, I don't have a cw, votes aren't moving, and I've already kind of hinted it too much. I am not vanilla.

Oh, yeah no I'm still voting that. That's not a claim, lol.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

ngl I think dwlee being this difficult is a scumtell

I will still do Dwlee today, obviously. I scum read that slot.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

it's almost like you want more information so you know whether i'm worth n1ing ;]

It's almost like claiming "I'm a powerrole" is something anyone can do and is a super easy scum lie and isn't a real claim and shouldn't scare anyone from voting anything.

And it's almost like that's been the standard for a decade of mafia.

And it's almost like I've had this conversation and done this with other players, when playing as a townie before, and will continue to in the future.

It's almost like you're grasping for anything that you can use at this point because you feel the noose tightening.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

it's almost like you want more information so you know whether i'm worth n1ing ;]

It's almost like claiming "I'm a powerrole" is something anyone can do and is a super easy scum lie and isn't a real claim and shouldn't scare anyone from voting anything.

And it's almost like that's been the standard for a decade of mafia.

And it's almost like I've had this conversation and done this with other players, when playing as a townie before, and will continue to in the future.

It's almost like you're grasping for anything that you can use at this point because you feel the noose tightening.

This is a bullshit post.

Outing oneself as a PR puts a target on their head for the nk.

duckie is not today's lim.

If he's still alive tomorrow, we can revisit this.

That's a terrible.... whatever.

Who do you want, exactly.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

it's almost like you want more information so you know whether i'm worth n1ing ;]

It's almost like claiming "I'm a powerrole" is something anyone can do and is a super easy scum lie and isn't a real claim and shouldn't scare anyone from voting anything.

And it's almost like that's been the standard for a decade of mafia.

And it's almost like I've had this conversation and done this with other players, when playing as a townie before, and will continue to in the future.

It's almost like you're grasping for anything that you can use at this point because you feel the noose tightening.

This is a bullshit post.

Outing oneself as a PR puts a target on their head for the nk.

duckie is not today's lim.

If he's still alive tomorrow, we can revisit this.

That's a terrible.... whatever.

Who do you want, exactly.

Navi is cool with me.

I was just poking the bear with my last vote.

It's true Navi is ghosting the thread. It also means I have zero read on her because I'm not really back reading this game, lol.

But to not show up at all in 3 days? I can vote that.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But not while we still have time, and the Worst or Dwlee are still options, sorry.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hey Kazyan, have you bothered recalibrating after you participated in kiling Navi who flipped town?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm not Kaz's #1 fan or anything but I don't think anyone deserves scrutiny for a D1 vanity wagon

Unless you specifically think Kaz is scum. I already know your piece with me and that's something you're going to have to realize yourself

I mean, Unwnd, you have zero problems with that Navi compromise wagon over the worst and then people coming in not recalibrating as a result?

Like, it's one thing to blame people for a misread, that happens, but once you're wrong you gotta come in and actively fucking recalibrate.

Like there were people on that wagon calling it bad and sounding like they knew/expected it to flip town despite being ON IT instead of voting the worst.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

do you not see that she ignored my actual game related issues with her opening wholesale?

i dont know how to respond to this without re-opening that conversation in a way that you wont like.
to be indirect about it, i do not feel as though anything in that conversation can or should be taken as alignment indicative, particularly on whether LLD should have been parsing your play at that point when she was likely upset with you, regardless of her alignment.

i think if you want to convince me LLD is mafia and you dont want me to unpack that conversation you should be trying to pull from other sources of her play as argument as to why shes mafia. which maybe is hard if youre town here and you think the most alignment indicative elements come from that section of her play.
but given that you dont want to talk about it, the clear strategic thing to do on your part is to work around it.

i sort of wish that i just hadnt asked about this now weeeee.

It's almost like Worst is leaning on people's uncomfortableness with it and just pointing at the sign on the bus that says don't talk to the driver.

It's almost like I did address those concerns and I find those concerns bad, and the worst scummy for continuing to push them.

The Worst is playing a suicide bomber game at this point, Gork. They don't care about their perception after my flip. They nearly died yesterday. It's all about killing as many people as possbile and maybe living by making LLD vs. Worst the most insufferable apathy generating thing in the game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, I'm a VT with no abilities, claim whatever the fuck you like.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No kills tonight so the protectives did a good job

I'm agreeing that LLD's entrance is scummy.
VOTE: LLD

You literally killed a townie yesterday as a compromise over me and now you're still here saying the SAME SHIT YOU SAID YESTERDAY without any change or reflection at all? Really?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

do you not see that she ignored my actual game related issues with her opening wholesale?

i dont know how to respond to this without re-opening that conversation in a way that you wont like.
to be indirect about it, i do not feel as though anything in that conversation can or should be taken as alignment indicative, particularly on whether LLD should have been parsing your play at that point when she was likely upset with you, regardless of her alignment.

i think if you want to convince me LLD is mafia and you dont want me to unpack that conversation you should be trying to pull from other sources of her play as argument as to why shes mafia. which maybe is hard if youre town here and you think the most alignment indicative elements come from that section of her play.
but given that you dont want to talk about it, the clear strategic thing to do on your part is to work around it.

i sort of wish that i just hadnt asked about this now weeeee.

Gork, I'm imploring you to look at the group of people currently voting me (Kazyan, Worst, Meg) and try to find a good faith reasonable argument about why I'm scum from ANY of them that you can agree with.

They won't interact with me, god knows. So I want you to try and if you can't find a good reason?

I want you to consider whether all 3 of those names can be town, given the circumstances.

And then work with me on what that means.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why do you think Navi’s townflip specifically makes it so people should reconsider you?

Because you have two options after that 7:5 vote.

The Worst is scum
or
The Worst is a claimed PR townie.

Right?

So if the worst is a claimed PR townie, and the scum team had a 7/5 vote they could manipulate how they wanted at end of day?

Why did the scum team vote out Navi instead?

Further, if I'm scum and sitting on the Worst!town all day, do you really think I'm not goign to get my scum buddies to kill worst after the claim if I know for a FACT Worst is a town pr at that point?

Or do you think the ENTIRE SCUM TEAM WAS ON THE WORST?

Which one is it? Like, how does the outcome of yesterday (Navi dead 7-5) line up with me being scum and the worst being town. Answer that. How can that be the case?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean I re thought over it

Its still scummy

Why do you think Navi’s townflip specifically makes it so people should reconsider you?

Because you have two options after that 7:5 vote.

The Worst is scum
or
The Worst is a claimed PR townie.

Right?

So if the worst is a claimed PR townie, and the scum team had a 7/5 vote they could manipulate how they wanted at end of day?

Why did the scum team vote out Navi instead?

Further, if I'm scum and sitting on the Worst!town all day, do you really think I'm not goign to get my scum buddies to kill worst after the claim if I know for a FACT Worst is a town pr at that point?

Or do you think the ENTIRE SCUM TEAM WAS ON THE WORST?

Which one is it? Like, how does the outcome of yesterday (Navi dead 7-5) line up with me being scum and the worst being town. Answer that. How can that be the case?

Same question then, Meg. How does Navi town+ Worst town + LLD scum add up with the results of yesterday after the worst's claim and the vote being 7-5?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like if the Worst is scum it adds up, sure.

But then you should be voting for the Worst.

So I assume you think the Worst is town.

So if we had 2 town wagons yesterday at 7-5, meaning scum has full control over who dies.

Why did Navi the VT die over The Worst, the CLAIMED PR?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That is the re-evaluation people should be doing and simply aren't.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Where did everyone go?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So I want you to try and if you can't find a good reason?

well i tried with one of them and now im just a big sad :v

i technically owe the worst a reread of his ISO and i would ideally like for him to contextualize his read on unwnd better which i could then try to parse.
i can also try to commit to eventually try to do the whole bother people to figure out why theyre doing what theyre doing that youre talking about here but it doesnt really feel like tonight is a night for tryharding for me.

i get where youre coming from on the wagon on you so far feeling a little sparse in terms of explicit reasoning from the people pushing it, but i feel like if you want to question the votes on it, if they refuse to answer you then that just looks bad on them and discredits the wagon on you?

Why did Navi the VT die over The Worst, the CLAIMED PR?

i feel like scum can be uncomfortable pushing a claimed PR based on optics? even if it would have technically been the optimal thing to do, if i were scum in this game i would have been incredibly uncomfortable trying to push that wagon through knowing how hard it would be to justify how it looks with the flip.

I mean, Navi was a compromise wagon, right? It'd be easy enough to say "I prefer flipping the Worst and getting info on LLD over flipping a compromise".

Right? Like there's no way you can't find a good acceptable reason to flip the Worst there.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why did Navi the VT die over The Worst, the CLAIMED PR?

i feel like scum can be uncomfortable pushing a claimed PR based on optics? even if it would have technically been the optimal thing to do, if i were scum in this game i would have been incredibly uncomfortable trying to push that wagon through knowing how hard it would be to justify how it looks with the flip.

Not only that, from a scum perspective they also probably don't know if Navi is a PR, and Navi would theoretically be much harder elimination on a later phase than TW (as if TW's role was confirmable as town they'd probably have said so) I'd say its still a viable choice for scum to pick a navi wagon over TW there.

I don't really enjoy your attitude of "can't have anything scummy against me ever be valid"
It feels very chainsawy and self-preservy.
Doesn't give off solvy vibes, just

trying to stay alive

vibes

Breaking this down point by point

1) Navi is not a harder elimination than the worst as proven by yesterday. Navi was checked out and elimination bait, the worst is actively defended.
2) "Can't have anything scummy against me ever be valid" You haven't provided anything scummy. You've said, and I quote "LLD's entrance is bad" and "I reconsidered and it's still bad". Well, I don't think my entrance is bad, and more over, I know I'm town so why would I agree with your assessment here? Not only are you not saying anything about WHY my entrance is bad that I can defend myself against, but also you're talking as if you expect me to agree with you that I'm scummy somehow.
2.1) Also, I have, infact, copped to several things I've done this game. Including when Dwlee said I went 0 to 100. If you'll recall, I said "yep I did that, I don't agree it's scummy". So I have, infact, agreed to what others are saying. Your issue here is that I won't admit to being scummy which, given I know my rolepm says town, would be literal game throwing to do.

3)That's not what Chainsaw means. Chainsaw means defending someone else. Much like the way you defended the Worst yesterday. Chainsaw means stepping in front of someone else's questioning line to defend a person when you're not involved. For someone who agreed that I was apparently using buzzwords yesterday, you're using one here and misapplying it.

3.1) I'm being self preservationist because I know I'm town and I'm arguing against bad arguments? I would note that I have yet to do any kind of self preservation arguments, but even if I have, defending yourself against pushes and making others see you as town is as important to being town as catching scum is. It's not scummy to argue why you're not scum.

4)I have literally been trying to solve this game since the moment I entered, and you should know this because that entrance of mine you are critiquing? The one you say is scummy? Involves me trying to solve and sort Dwlee's alignment. I have also stated townreads on several players, and even given a semblance of a readslist to explain my positions on multiple players.

4.1) "Just trying to stay alive": see 3.1

Your argument holds no water, as explained above, and none of this is remotely a good reason to scum read someone.

Further, your focus on me lays bare something interesting. For someone concerned that I'm not doing any solving? Why aren't you trying to solve the game, Meg? You're hyper focusing on me and giving basically nothing while doing it, why aren't you engaging in other places trying to solve?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

I'm going to shout this to the heavens, that if anyone has claims that can counter-claim this or provide another reason why someone didn't die, if town, you HAVE to claim it.

Because if we have nothing else in the town, that's 2 confirmed townies and we can do a lot of work from there.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

I'm going to shout this to the heavens, that if anyone has claims that can counter-claim this or provide another reason why someone didn't die, if town, you HAVE to claim it.

Because if we have nothing else in the town, that's 2 confirmed townies and we can do a lot of work from there.

Also, before people make claims I'm rolefishing or something.

It's much more important we nail down whether there is any other possible outcome NOW so scum can't fuck around and fake something LATER. We should work on confirming two people now, if possible.

Well, mostly confirming. Mafia could have chosen to No Kill but... we can discuss that kind of outcome later if the Worst is still alive and hasn't been killed for a doctor claim.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD do you still think I'm super evil baddie of bad

Pending outcomes of anyone claiming other protective outcomes that could supercede the Worst, ask me after that's done?

Cause if the worst is town, or at minimum if the worst is gambitting and will be re-evaluated later?

Then I need to do a full re-evaluation of the game from a "worst and I are tvt perspective"

and that stuff I talked about with the Worst and Navi's wagons would mean there's only a few people who I could reasonable be suspicious of, I think...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

Nuh uh. I highly doubt this is real.

I mean, do we benefit from treating it as real for one day? I think we do.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It's still worth having anyone who has an alternate solution to no kill claim, though.

No other claims, just "if my ability could stop a kill..." then claim. Otherwise, don't.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Gamma I don't have as much to say about. Gamma is someone who I believe as town needs to get his say in. I've seen him try to replicate this as scum--but his timing is more off when he rolls red. He doesn't interject because it just absolutely holds him aghast that someone/something could happen and Gamma just

needs

to speak upon it, he does it for show. He also is more direct in how he displays that side. The whole 'fuck off' and other pointed accusations at people for misreading something didn't seem like a constructive Gamma who I believe (and he's free to tell me wrong) enjoys looking good as town. What I mean by this is that I feel Gamma is someone who inspires himself based on

1) How much people are reading his posts
2) How willing others are towards him

Having a moment like that once or twice is not definitively why my read had flipped, rather time has shown that I've seen a lot of posts from Gamma that could do without. Made not because he desires feedback from others but rather he is oddly restrictive. A town gamma maybe tells me to fuck off but also then uses that propulsion to do something with it. Gamma's been treating me like I exist but afraid to object, and I think that fear is something that is reminiscent to his scum behavior where he doesn't want to panic. Gamma is cautious, withdrawn, and surprisingly OK with a lot of things. If Gamma is trying to work on himself then I respect that notion, but this is a game and how I'm reading his behavioral patterns makes me believe he's scum.

What's your thoughts on Meg

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't like them but I'm not as familiar with them. While I said something to the effect of 'let's not gripe about the Navi elim' to you, I almost wanted to take it back because MCat/Gamma/Meg were all voting Navi and that's my bottom-half. I talked about Meg before where I think they're fanning the flames in a lot of conversation but muted everywhere else. My problem with this is that if you're going to act in a accusatory and direct way, it must show somewhere in your reads or what you want to see the thread develop into.

With meg, it really doesn't. So it just sounds like chatter with an edge to it. What good is that though?

Mm mmm.

I'd be tempted to sheep you on whichever one of those 3 you think is most likely to flip scum today. If The Worst is likely town, you're even more likely town here barring a counter claim, and if you're town and I'm on the wrong track, I feel like your reads probably have some strength in them at that point.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

I'm going to shout this to the heavens, that if anyone has claims that can counter-claim this or provide another reason why someone didn't die, if town, you HAVE to claim it.

Because if we have nothing else in the town, that's 2 confirmed townies and we can do a lot of work from there.

omg she's asking for counterclaims to a softclear while she's under the spotlight

this is literally scum trying to do as much damage as possible while going down holy shit

Do you really detest me so much that you're incapable of seeing that this is the literal correct play for town to do in nearly every case?

It has nothing to do with rolefishing, my dude. Not only does this allow us to protect from a gambit by you, it also means we can say "Claim now or forever hold your peace" to a bunch of people and confirm you as town minus a N1 no kill which is... ridiculous, honestly.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think I would like to vote MCat the most due to my reasons and the whole make him do something.

I'm not trying to agitate him or make the experience unplayable, because I have a lot of faith he can prove me wrong. Until then I haven't been and I'm gonna follow my instinct.

VOTE: MURDERCAT

Having literally not seen MC since I replaced in, I'd also like to see what they do. Did something happen? You're talking like there's eggshells around this one or something?

Vote: Murdercat

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do you really detest me so much that you're incapable of seeing that this is the literal correct play for town to do in nearly every case?

It has nothing to do with rolefishing, my dude. Not only does this allow us to protect from a gambit by you, it also means we can say "Claim now or forever hold your peace" to a bunch of people and confirm you as town minus a N1 no kill which is... ridiculous, honestly.

very far from detesting you, i actually respect you a lot.

you're correct insofar as we are better off spending this phase treating unwnd as cleared (myself less so but like, I'll take it!).

you're absolutely not correct that it's valuable for people to claim contrary reasons for no kill to have occurred before massclaim. TPRs would be better off collecting at least another night of info before outing imo esp. if we're already treating unwnd as softcleared. we can't remove all ambiguity in this until postgame so i think there's very limited utility in removing a little bit of ambiguity.

We're not claiming any TPR minus ones that have an ability that can protect people and be an alternate result to you. All people should claim is "Could have stopped the kill last night" or "could not have stopped the kill last night"

why is that such a big info to collect, when it's day 2, we have a no kill N1 and we have the chance to remove paranoia? It makes 0 sense not to do. People are so afraid of using claim info to work games these days I feel, but the truth is that the mafia already need to deal with you if you're town, Worst. So these claims don't hurt us much and they don't stop investigative PRs at all.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why did Navi the VT die over The Worst, the CLAIMED PR?

i feel like scum can be uncomfortable pushing a claimed PR based on optics? even if it would have technically been the optimal thing to do, if i were scum in this game i would have been incredibly uncomfortable trying to push that wagon through knowing how hard it would be to justify how it looks with the flip.

Not only that, from a scum perspective they also probably don't know if Navi is a PR, and Navi would theoretically be much harder elimination on a later phase than TW (as if TW's role was confirmable as town they'd probably have said so) I'd say its still a viable choice for scum to pick a navi wagon over TW there.

I don't really enjoy your attitude of "can't have anything scummy against me ever be valid"
It feels very chainsawy and self-preservy.
Doesn't give off solvy vibes, just

trying to stay alive

vibes

Breaking this down point by point

1) Navi is not a harder elimination than the worst as proven by yesterday. Navi was checked out and elimination bait, the worst is actively defended.

Navi was primarily scumread do to giving up (for lack of a better term) under pressure. They easily could have jumped back in the town's eyes with convincing d2 play. TW's scumcase is built on specific interactions that numerous people find scummy, which is unlikely to change how people feel about said interactions in the future (without flips) Ergo, a TW scumcase would be an easier push on any future day than a navi push.

2) "Can't have anything scummy against me ever be valid" You haven't provided anything scummy. You've said, and I quote "LLD's entrance is bad" and "I reconsidered and it's still bad". Well, I don't think my entrance is bad, and more over, I know I'm town so why would I agree with your assessment here? Not only are you not saying anything about WHY my entrance is bad that I can defend myself against, but also you're talking as if you expect me to agree with you that I'm scummy somehow.

I think some valid points have been brought up by TW that I agree with. You treat them mostly with how I describe in 2.1

2.1) Also, I have, infact, copped to several things I've done this game. Including when Dwlee said I went 0 to 100. If you'll recall, I said "yep I did that, I don't agree it's scummy". So I have, infact, agreed to what others are saying. Your issue here is that I won't admit to being scummy which, given I know my rolepm says town, would be literal game throwing to do.

You admit here that you aren't responding with actual defense of your actions, just stating that they aren't scummy. Exactly my point as to why they don't hold weight or serve as a defense of your position. Also the GT argument here is very strong language for something literally every townie does in some way or another each game. (nobody looks perfectly townie, that's an unrealistic standard)

3)That's not what Chainsaw means. Chainsaw means defending someone else. Much like the way you defended the Worst yesterday. Chainsaw means stepping in front of someone else's questioning line to defend a person when you're not involved. For someone who agreed that I was apparently using buzzwords yesterday, you're using one here and misapplying it.

I'm sorry if I misuse the term here, though in this context I was using it as "countering an argument by discrediting it instead of challenging it"

3.1) I'm being self preservationist because I know I'm town and I'm arguing against bad arguments? I would note that I have yet to do any kind of self preservation arguments, but even if I have, defending yourself against pushes and making others see you as town is as important to being town as catching scum is. It's not scummy to argue why you're not scum.

You agree that trying to accurately sort slots is important. But i don't see any evidence of you trying to do that this game. In fact I have given evidence to the contrary (will quote next post)

4)I have literally been trying to solve this game since the moment I entered, and you should know this because that entrance of mine you are critiquing? The one you say is scummy? Involves me trying to solve and sort Dwlee's alignment. I have also stated townreads on several players, and even given a semblance of a readslist to explain my positions on multiple players.

This doesn't feel like the case and I have already shown why it doesn't seem that way (see following quote)

4.1) "Just trying to stay alive": see 3.1

Your argument holds no water, as explained above, and none of this is remotely a good reason to scum read someone.

Further, your focus on me lays bare something interesting. For someone concerned that I'm not doing any solving? Why aren't you trying to solve the game, Meg? You're hyper focusing on me and giving basically nothing while doing it, why aren't you engaging in other places trying to solve?

I have given my poe pool of where I think scum lies. The fact is that you are the slot I would love to see eliminated today. Even if you flip green I don't think you are being reasonable from a town perspective.

Bolded text is added by me. Quote incoming.

"Even if you flip green, I don't think you are being reasonable from a town perspective."

I don't really want to talk to you anymore. It feels like you just don't like my aggressive playstyle and are either:

scum using this to push me and saying that line to try and absolve yourself for when I flip town

or

town who is more concerned with HOW I am playing than my alignment, and trying to convince themselves that if I do flip town, it wasn't your fault and there was nothing you could have done.

In either case, arguing with you will get me absolutely nowhere and do nothing but frustrate me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

... but they explicitly out protective/manipulative TPRs which become more powerful late in the game...?

there's a 0% chance i hardclaim here unless i'd already outed by TPR status.

Those kinds of PRs have less use than confirming two people as town now and reshaping the tone and views of the game.

With how you've played, you're not going to get a townread without it, or did you not see Gamma's reaction.

Also, do you really think there are more than 2 roles in the game that can stop kills? I'm questioning with me being a pure VT whether there's more than 1, which is the goal of the claim. I think 2 is the MAXIMUM.

so we're not really losing any equity to gain a bunch of momentum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Going to a wedding this weekend, really don't have the time or the energy to fight the wagon. "He's scummy when he's here" and then you just quote my iso with no real reasoning and people hop on like always. Think I'm retired after this game, me getting run up D1 every game is not fun for anyone.

The worst is still town, house maybe scum if Navi town but the vote swap seemed too blatant. Meg most likely scum on my wagon. Gamma ??, Still don't believe that read on me is real

VOTE: Navi

@lld, this i think

Dude is a paragon, He thought Meg/Gamma were scum on his wagon and I can't see many paragons being so off-base that they go 0/3 even with little activity. It's not enitrely BoP though if you read my own thoughts.

Wait, do you think MC names both his partners in the direct with this post? That seems questionable, don't you think?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think paragon is more of a curse than a blessing. heavy is the head, etc. - burden of proficiency remains a logical fallacy.

all the same, yeah MCat is dodging committing to the game and i don't really think his comment about retirement is town indicative at all.

Burden of Proficiency is a useful tool, and I disagree with you entirely now. I think MC's post there looks like defeated townie, and I have a hard time seeing him be scum with both Gamma AND Meg at that point.

Still willing to sheep Unwnd, tbh, since my reads are scrambled if no counter claim, but I really am no longer sure MCat is best as a result

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't think there's a lot of reconsidering going around in general

I mean, I'm very clearly considering all the data, between yesterday's wagons and the claim and everyhting.

That's why I'm so frustrated, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

God, Unwnd

Do you know my first gut scumread when I looked at the thread? It's not Dwlee.

Can you guess what it was? Cause if you can I think we should look there for a bit too.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

you thought unwnd was a likely nightkill

This is why I want the claims, btw. All of this stinks to high heaven, but....

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I want to take a stab at a read

See what happens, then go from there. That's how I play. I had no say on Navi's elimination. MCat/Gamma then sort out the dust afterwards.

I would like to hear if Worst still wants you (LLD) and how it ties with Gamma though because I don't remember.

I mean, I said I'd support you even if I disagreed on MCat today.

But I'm still going to try and convince you while I do.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

God, Unwnd

Do you know my first gut scumread when I looked at the thread? It's not Dwlee.

Can you guess what it was? Cause if you can I think we should look there for a bit too.

Unwnd please play my guessing game, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

God, Unwnd

Do you know my first gut scumread when I looked at the thread? It's not Dwlee.

Can you guess what it was? Cause if you can I think we should look there for a bit too.

Mine was House.

You?

Pooky.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

idgi
are we taking it at face value that mafia shot unwnd last night? because i have a lot of problems with that assessment
and they start with feeling as though that being correct about that is really uncharitable towards the mafia team's kill selection ability

No we're going to have everyone in the game claim "I could have stopped last night's kill" or "I could not stop last night's kill"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD isn't responding to my challenge against her shitpush and 2167 and 2169 by Meg are great observations, being both townie and damning. LLD has thrown terrible, terrible shade arguments against multiple people and responds to everything by basically yelling "NOT AN ARGUMENT" over and over because I guess she thinks we don't know what arguments are. Then the blatant Appeal To You Being Clearly An Idiot for anyone who doesn't see why Navi flipping green has nothing to do with her flipping red.

I want LLD gone. She's transparently scummy, and if she's town, she will cast the losing vote in ELo when scum says some nonsense and she declines to read the thread. I still want that delicious confirmation of The Worst being town if she's scum.

I have won more games, caught more scum and have 10 years worth of experience on you.

I have a reputation on this site for being good at this game.

I have the record for the highest ever qualifier vote total on MafiaUniverse's Mafia Championships, and came 4th the year I played after winning both my games.

Please consider that rather than me not reading and apparently being... too stupid to read the game in ELO and too bad to ever get it right?

That maybe you are a closed minded individual who cannot see other playstyles past their own nose, and that you should consider opening your mind and actually asking "Hmm, what are LLD's motivations for her actions?" instead of just behaving like this.

This is the nicest way I can word this. I have re-written this response to your insult of a post about 5 times and kept getting angry, which I am trying not to do! Please consider this a nice way of saying "you're a jerk and I am a veteran who has proven my skill in this game multiple times over".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, some extra advice, since I had to learn this lesson the hard way myself?

Prefacing your posts and suspicions of other players with insults of their play sufficient that you can protect your fragile ego from any culpability of being wrong on someone might seem like a good way to make yourself look better at mafia.

But I assure you, it only makes you look silly, it makes people frustrated with you, and you don't really improve until you realize that you can only control things you do, which is reading others. If you misread someone, that's on you. The context and ability to find them town was always there. Maybe it's hard, maybe you can't right then. That happens. I still make mistakes too.

But these statements that I'm playing wrong or that I'll make the wrong vote in ELO?

It's nothing more than fragile ego protection that will never help you improve. Ditch it as soon as you can.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Who should we be voting here

I'm sheeping Unwnd because I think it'll provide info.

I'm good to vote inside Gamma/Megazumaril/Murdercat today, but I'd love to hear back from MC before we do anything like that. I kind of feel like MC might be town?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think MC is town but the other two could flip anything maybe. I thought gamma was town last day phase and now I forget why I thought that.

I feel like MC's wedding post reads extremely like real frustration from town. The worry is that the pain of constantly being run up is AI, so the frustration could be masked.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

MC's irl posts do nothing for me.. He is just frustrated because he needs more of a pass than we're giving him.. Like am I cold or am I missing something specifically juicy about his posting?

You really can't search for the difference in intentfulness and tone between someone's frustration?

Like... seriously? I get that theoretically, this is possible for MC. Like, wanting more of a pass is... a way to describe that.

But WHY he wants that pass and the emotional resonance behind that reason, that reflects the alignment.

He's talking about being run up Day 1 (as town) for no reason. That kind of frustration would really boil over. It's hard to have that frustration as scum, and not have it come off as caught for the wrong reasons in an emotional way.

Like... you're not looking for this kind of thing at all?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

{Dwlee, Dannflor, Worst, Unwnd}

This is my town list. Gamma is dead null as far as I'm concerned, and I agree a vote there is a waste of time right now.

The early Kaz wagon seems scum inflated imo, and the worst vote there is Meg, who also jumped onto the kid wagon.

VOTE: Meg

Wait wait wait wait

Dwlee is... well, Dwlee I'm still not sure on but

Worst Unwnd Dannflor is like... assumign no role fuckery gambit shit from Worst, the top 3 townies in the game rn.

and then voting Meg... mmm

I actually think this might be town MC, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

MC's irl posts do nothing for me.. He is just frustrated because he needs more of a pass than we're giving him.. Like am I cold or am I missing something specifically juicy about his posting?

You really can't search for the difference in intentfulness and tone between someone's frustration?

Like... seriously? I get that theoretically, this is possible for MC. Like, wanting more of a pass is... a way to describe that.

But WHY he wants that pass and the emotional resonance behind that reason, that reflects the alignment.

He's talking about being run up Day 1 (as town) for no reason. That kind of frustration would really boil over. It's hard to have that frustration as scum, and not have it come off as caught for the wrong reasons in an emotional way.

Like... you're not looking for this kind of thing at all?

I am, I'm not seeing it in MCat's posts. I think you're making assumptions about MCat's personality and insinuations about tones in his post which I don't see at all.

I see them pretty strongly, though I admit I've played with MC quite a bit before so maybe it's just comfort level?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I had a long think. LLD, honestly, you're right about me being a jerk and you saw the worst side of me in that post. Your composure is admirable. I can't promise that I'll be a good person or a good player, I can only promise to try.

I don't know how to evaluate the way that you play, or the way that anyone plays. Your push on Dwlee on Day 1 was to generate content on an ambiguous slot, right? But I only know that because you spelled it out for the thread. Is it a 'shake the town into shape so that they're better at catching the bad guys' strategy?

UNVOTE:

So I'll be honest that if I had any one stated goal for that action, I'd probably be lying to you? The concept of pressuring Dwlee there was to generate content on a level that the town could interact with both me and dwlee, and force the game from an apathetic state into one where people would take harder stances and that those stances would be useful for purposes of evaluating alignment later.

It also lets me get immediate reaction takes on people, which is another alignment check thing that helps.

So it's at least partially for me, but it's also for the sake of the whole town, because content creation is useful to a point where it is helpful for reads (too much will generate more apathy. See: "It's been 2 days and there's 20 pages?")

So yeah "shake things lose and provide the town more avenues for discussion and finding scum" is approximately covering most of the goals.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Gamma

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That should be ELO-2, 5 votes on Gamma.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I support The Worst and I being the choice.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can I ask why we're no eliminating if we can kill Kazyan to test Gamma partially?

Like if Gamma is telling the truth, we want to kill Kazyan.

If Gamma is lying... we may still want to kill Kazyan, but we learn faster if the worst becomes town because of his doctor...

sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


why no eliminate here?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Right but there's...

With a stopped kill, we're half way to an extra vote. If ANYTHING happens, we can get extra kills, we shouldn't be no eliminating and handing court back to the scum for a kill.

Never.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Right but there's...

With a stopped kill, we're half way to an extra vote. If ANYTHING happens, we can get extra kills, we shouldn't be no eliminating and handing court back to the scum for a kill.

Never.

there's only 1 claimed kill stopping role (duckie)

so if its a true killstopping role, he probly gets shot in the face before he stops another kill

If duckie is being shot in the face that confirms Unwnd...

which means one of Kazyan/Gamma is scum

which means we should kill Kazyan today anyway since we'd be doing it tomorrow REGARDLESS.

Tempo, Pooky.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why would you vote outside of Kaz/unwnd today with that result?

Because it’s not truly conclusive and the lack of kill had me wondering things that made claiming extremely unappealing.

But if one of them is scum flipping one of them guarantees we lim scum by tomorrow...

I think Gamma is scum here but also probably better to get another parity check just in case?

if you thought gamma was scum, why also think that there would be a guaranteed scum lim tomorrow with a flip in the pair?

Gork, I'm imploring you to look at the group of people currently voting me (Kazyan, Worst, Meg) and try to find a good faith reasonable argument about why I'm scum from ANY of them that you can agree with.

can you walk me through why you included kazyan in this pile?

Right? Like there's no way you can't find a good acceptable reason to flip the Worst there.

this reaction is extremely delayed and probably not useful anymore:
i think its less an issue about finding a good acceptable reason. i dont doubt that a good scum player could do that. average scum players are probably going to care enough about their optics to be at least uncomfortable going for it.

Can I ask why we're no eliminating if we can kill Kazyan to test Gamma partially?

Like if Gamma is telling the truth, we want to kill Kazyan.

If Gamma is lying... we may still want to kill Kazyan, but we learn faster if the worst becomes town because of his doctor...

what changed since you said that you were willing to straight up lose to kazyan because of the mod question?

It turns out I thought kaz was scummy, then he did a really townie thing. Then a result came out that made his scum equity soar.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I would be really REALLY difficult to see Worst+Unwnd as a combo fake claim for scum.

And if Worst is town, you gotta imagine it's hard to see Unwnd as scum.

So you're looking at best at Worst scum+Unwnd town

but if Unwnd is town, it's either a Gamma fake claim or Kazyan is scum.

So yes I've re-evaluated on Kazyan that the overwhelming likelyhood here is that Kazyan is scum and we should eliminate Kazyan today

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i'll just be upfront and say that i think that LLD feels like she has decent partner equity with both kazyan and gamma.

i got very weird vibes from kazyan's vote on her and subsequent unvote and the willingness to go for them over exploring other options like looking outside the pool just seems.. weird.

gamma is also being weird and hedgy about talking about LLD in a way that i dont really understand.

i think that her entrance was fine in terms of it seeming like a protown move, but ive just generally gotten the vibe that she hasnt really been 110% behind any push shes made.
im less confident in this aspect because i think the game has been generally hostile to her in a way that would make it hard to find her feet as either alignment. i just find the way shes been reaching for things seems more self-preservationist in a way that i think has an agenda and not enough solving energy.

i have hesitation here because i think this game has probably sucked for her so far and i dont want to add to that, but shes like a literal nexus of my biggest question marks in this game right now.

Gamma, maybe I'll give you, given an interaction I had with Gamma that could have some possible scum motivation

but do you really REALLY think Kazyan/I have partner Equity after Kazyan tried to policy eliminate me and I had to, no joke, re-write 6 different versions of a response to this?

Like, Kazyan and I having partner equity is so outlandish that it makes me question your motives for suggesting it, because I really really struggle to see how you came to that conclusion.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, if anyone is hedging on me rn Gork, it's you.

You open the post saying that you think I have partner equity

and end the post hmming and hawwing about uncertainties and how I've been treated this game.

That's hedging.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, saying I haven't been 110% behind my pushes this game when I went 110 for Dwlee, then went similarly for the Worst even after becoming demotivated.

Then came into today ready to force re-evaluations, worst claims doctor, and I'm re-evaluating.

Land on Gamma and say I'm supporting Unwnd's choice today.

And then Gamma claims a sfot guilty on 2 people who were in my top town pool, saying at least one of them must be scum.

So... yes, I think I'm now on re-evaluation number 3 for the day and I'm landing on the world where Kazyan is liekly just scum because I think Gamma claims something different as a fake claim if he claims parity cop there?

Cause if we kill Kazyan and Kazyan flips town, the worst AND unwnd know Gamma is confirmed scum to them at that point, right?

So why would Gamma risk that claim instead of something way juicier like... say "Meg and LLD are unaligned".

That sets the fight between Meg and I today, meg probably dies, and if Gamma is scum in that world, Meg is town so then I die next and boom 2 town dead before he dies for lying.

why didn't he do that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, if anyone is hedging on me rn Gork, it's you.

You open the post saying that you think I have partner equity

and end the post hmming and hawwing about uncertainties and how I've been treated this game.

That's hedging.

but like does this observation mean anything to you

I mean, yes, but why do I need to reveal how much this is shifting my Gork read right now when we have a very obvious town play to kill Kazyan right here right now.

Why give scum more knowledge of how much I am thinking when I could literally just kill Kazyan

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like, let's break it down

no one counter claimed TW on "ability to have stopped the night kill" and should if they haven't last chance seriously, so the worst is either town or scum faked an NK.

if scum faked an NK, there's a VERY low chance Unwnd is also scum at that point. Unwnd wasn't in danger, so it's a weird choice frmo TW no matter what but I think this screams unwnd town.

So we're at TW mostly town, Unwnd almost always town and then we have

Gamma claims a role and result that are a straight up terrible fake claim for him if he is scum. Even if he's resolved to claim Parity cop, there's better fake targets to claim at that point beyond Unwnd/Kazyan.

So Gamma probably tellign the truth and town.

So that's Gamma/Unwnd town with a side of the Worst

who does that leave nearly always as scum minus some SERIOUS gambiting?

Kazayn.

Why are we making this more complicated than that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

someone needs to make a good argument why my logic isn't solid.

Like my view is that in 80% of words or better, Kazyan is just scum here.

and if we're in 20% world, it's good to know the whole Gamma/TW/Unwnd shit has something fucky going on going into NIGHT instead of having to resolve it TOMORROW.

We shuold always kill Kaz here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okay then, Gork. Are you currently voting Kazyan?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because you're arguing a position where I have partner equity, right?

So in your current world view, I'd be bussing, correct?

So help me bus, Gork.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

no and i dont really understand the point of the question when ive stated then i think you could be partners with two of the people in a pile that has a scum in it.

Then help me bus, Gork.

The point I made was that Gamma does have a weird interaction with me, but suggesting Kazyan is so beyond the pale it borders on ridiculous.

And you decided to argue, no, it's not ridiculous.

so do you think Kazyan is scum, Gork? or town?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like your viewpoints are currently inconsistent at best and extremely suspicious at worst.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

no and i dont really understand the point of the question when ive stated then i think you could be partners with two of the people in a pile that has a scum in it.

Oh, also, why didn't you include Unwnd in this pool of people who could have a scum in it? It's not like the worst's claim makes Unwnd 100% town, just mostly likely as I've described.

But you've just written off Unwnd completely, why is that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

youre certainly free to argue that im not smart or scum if thats the approach you want to take.

i just think unwnd is town right now.
i did already state that from your POV unwnd should still probably be a question mark.

You think Unwnd is town right now?

Thank you for confirming your logic.

So now, given you and others (myself included) see Unwnd as mostly indelible town right now, do you think scum Gamma in any amount of times out of 100 decides to claim Parity Cop... and then claim KAZYAN AND UNWND?

Please logic through that question, and then I have another follow up.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

youre certainly free to argue that im not smart or scum if thats the approach you want to take.

i just think unwnd is town right now.
i did already state that from your POV unwnd should still probably be a question mark.

Inconsistent doesn't mean stupid, it means your viewpoints are inconsistent. This is what is called attacking the play and not the player, Gork.

I'm saying either your view points are inconsistent (and I am currently asking questions to make them consistent or prove them otherwise) or you are being suspicious in pushing narratives that contain those inconsistencies.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

youre certainly free to argue that im not smart or scum if thats the approach you want to take.

i just think unwnd is town right now.
i did already state that from your POV unwnd should still probably be a question mark.

You think Unwnd is town right now?

Thank you for confirming your logic.

So now, given you and others (myself included) see Unwnd as mostly indelible town right now, do you think scum Gamma in any amount of times out of 100 decides to claim Parity Cop... and then claim KAZYAN AND UNWND?

Please logic through that question, and then I have another follow up.

And so I would like you to answer this question, I'll even simplify it for you.

Do you find it remotely likely given the massive townreads on Unwnd that existed prior to Gamma being run up and forced to claim, that Gamma is faking their result? If so, why wouldn't Gamma fake a more useful result that wouldn't lock them down as much as this one has?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

well you were making it sound like youre townreading unwnd based purely on mechanical reasons which came across as an extremely shallow reason to drop a townread that you claimed to be incredibly confident in.
i dont see any reason why gamma has to make moves that logically make sense to me as scum who is under fire in terms of who he claims for his claim if hes lying.

p-edit: claiming that someone is being inconsistent with their logic as town is more or less inferring that i should be being smarter here as town, which is more or less what i feel like youre trying to get at with a lot of your points in this conversation right now.

Once again, no, it's got nothing to do with your intelligence, unless you think townies are incapable of making mistakes and needing those mistakes corrected? I've certainly made mistakes, doesn't make me bad at mafia.

I'm interrogating your view point to discover whether your mental processing and internal consistency lines up with these narratives you have pushed, or not. I can determine your alignment after, but I want to defeat the logic first.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

well you were making it sound like youre townreading unwnd based purely on mechanical reasons which came across as an extremely shallow reason to drop a townread that you claimed to be incredibly confident in.

i dont see any reason why gamma has to make moves that logically make sense to me as scum who is under fire in terms of who he claims for his claim if hes lying.

p-edit: claiming that someone is being inconsistent with their logic as town is more or less inferring that i should be being smarter here as town, which is more or less what i feel like youre trying to get at with a lot of your points in this conversation right now.

Sure, he doesn't have to. But do you not think scum would be motivated to do a more reasonable claim?

And do you not think that Gamma was under no time pressure and had plenty of time to make his claim, or was his hand forced?

Finally, if his hand wasn't forced, and if he would be motivated to make a more reasonable claim, do you not think that Gamma as a player would be capable of reading the logic of why this particular claim is poor and not doing it?

Remember, this isn't a place Gamma can hide in absurdism to appear so scummy he's town. He claimed a result that LOCKS him into either his results being true, or being exposed as a liar very quickly.

Why would Gamma do that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

why arent you interrogating dannflor in the same way about his skepticism on gamma?

This is a whataboutism. Perhaps we should interrogate Dannflor. Would you like to?

But this doesn't distract from your position. I want you to continue to answer the questions, please.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i wasnt particularly under the impression that unwnd was widely being townread beyond him having been the worst's target?
why does gamma have to have some amazing move in mind when he was suddenly flash wagoned?

Being the worst's target created a world where Unwnd is widely townread. Are you saying you disagree with that statement?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

nvm hes skeptical of unwnd
i probably shouldnt have even talked about my thoughts knowing this was probably going to be the resulting conversation when im so low energy today

p-edit:

why is it unreasonable? he bought himself at least a day if not more

pp-edit: its not a whataboutism if youre choosing to only engage with a position the moment when its coming from someone who is potentially threatening to you right now.

Because there were better options that buy him more than a day as scum and don't tie him into the Unwnd/Worst skepticism.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

nvm hes skeptical of unwnd
i probably shouldnt have even talked about my thoughts knowing this was probably going to be the resulting conversation when im so low energy today

p-edit: why is it unreasonable? he bought himself at least a day if not more

pp-edit:

its not a whataboutism if youre choosing to only engage with a position the moment when its coming from someone who is potentially threatening to you right now.

I have been arguing this logic at large for the past little while, as I've been pushing for Kazyan to die for about 48 hours now, over a no elimination. I don't believe I am only engaging with this position the second I am "put in threat" given that fact.

Further, you're not threatening to me, because I'm not on the chopping block today. You're semi widely town read but not enough to receive the worst's protection tonight. Were I scum and you town, my correct move is to continue doing what I am doing, or even allow a no elimination, shoot you tonight, and your reads would be forgotten by 2 days from now.

Finally, it does infact remain a whataboutism, regardless of your opinion about my alignment.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Being the worst's target created a world where Unwnd is widely townread. Are you saying you disagree with that statement?

its a shea setup? im townleaning him independently of the result

This wasn't the question. I'll be more clear.

Irrespective of your OWN beliefs, Unwnd is being largely townread by the majority or more of the game because of, or at least from the point at which the worst claimed their results.

True or False?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Some sentiment has been given to eliminating outside of the parity cop trio which I would like to object to.

It gives up too much tempo and we are not able to eliminate the trio in time (2/3)

Given this sentiment, where is your vote currently?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

fucking lol
VOTE: no elim

More please?

Can we ducking not? I’d like a solid idea of what to do here.

{kazyan,unwnd,me} + lld imo

I was checking what no elim was at because while I want to cast my vote there I don’t wanna hammer it until Kazyan clarifies his mechsolve
This suggestion doesn’t really work. I can’t target kaz or unwnd again until n3, and I agree with the assertions that targeting you seems like a bad idea.

Why would you want to vote No Elim over Kazyan in this world when you, from your perspective, know your results to be real.

At that point you only need to question The Worst's unwnd protection, which is super liekly to yield Unwnd town anyway.

So why are you favouring a no elimination?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No elimination

Which does not lose the tempo

Why not do Kazyan today, which also doesn't lose the tempo and provides us with more information going into this next very important night.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm going to take a shower.

Hopefully some of you can piece together the logical string I have laid out here and come to the same conclusion I have.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because there were better options that buy him more than a day as scum and don't tie him into the Unwnd/Worst skepticism.

this is entirely contingent upon us flipping kazyan now and the worst dying at night. he would buy more than a night in the scenario that we no lim.
this is also entirely dependent on the notion that someone who is being hard pushed all of a sudden is inherently going to come up with a good claim.
ie: dgb signature, etc.

Further, you're not threatening to me, because I'm not on the chopping block today.

in another parallel universe where im feeling good my response to this would be "i love a good challenge".
i dont really see why you think youre in a particularly safe position right now.

Were I scum and you town, my correct move is to continue doing what I am doing, or even allow a no elimination, shoot you tonight, and your reads would be forgotten by 2 days from now.

i find it hard to believe that scum you would just ignore me.

True or False?

i guess true? but it still doesnt necessarily mean that gamma is going to make optimal decisions as scum in that position. why does scum have to make good decisions under pressure?

In order:

DGB's signature is something that is useful, but as it turns out, Gamma's claim is complete, has versimilitude and cognitive consistency with his beliefs from yesterday and is a very terrbile fake claim for mechanical reasons, not panic reasons.

If you think you can kill me today, I encourage you to go for it. Perhaps a little bit of tactical evidence that the mountain of no eliminators are barely moving would show you why this logic of yours is bad.

You really don't understand how I play scum if you think I am above ignoring and then killing you if I feel you're a threat.

Gamma wasn't under pressure, Gamma had all the time in the world to craft a fake claim and came back with the one he did. I recognize that scum CAN make mistakes, but this feels like too big of a mistake, at too big of a time, that would have been pointed out to him in a scum QT or even noticed by him before claiming it.

I'm saying that with the cirucmstances, Gamma didn't chose those names as a mistake from a draw. It was a conscious choice and I don't get why scum makes that choice. It makes no sense.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

gamma is also refusing to vote for kazyan which plays directly against your theory that he isnt playing in a way that would buy him more than a day as mafia here.

Note that I am interrogating Gamma about this.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I really don't think Kaz is scum and that's another why I think Gamma is full of it.

I just can't see Gamma making those two names his claim. There's no absurdist hiding spot here. Any other pair would have been better!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Sorry, I suppose "The Worst and Unwnd are unaligned" is worse. Just barely.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yes but if my intuition is right on Kaz all Gamma will do is go 'see I told you unwnd is scum' and claim roleblock.

I have ESP.

I promise you that if Kaz flips town and Gamma provides no results?

I'm killing Gamma tomorrow.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You really don't understand how I play scum if you think I am above ignoring and then killing you if I feel you're a threat.

maybe you dont see me as a threat, but i think its extremely probable that scumYou thinks that you can use me as a springboard for content.

im probably doing more harm than good if i am right by pushing this in terms of giving you a chance to get back into this game and my track record of convincing anyone about anything in this game.
but im not going to just pretend to not have a read on the gamestate if i have it.

p-edit: kaz has a scumgame on-site.

But your argument was that I was only pushing back at you because I found you threatening, and so it wasn't whataboutism.

Isn't this shifting the goalposts? Now it's that I DON'T find you scumreading me suspicious and I'm using you to springboard into a game where I am already engaging and making arguments about Kazyan that don't involve you?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because getting elimmed tomorrow allows for hopefully two results to be confirmed as trustworthy (I’m not saying accurate because idk what sort of bastard game fuckery might be going on). Getting NKed means there’s only the one result, and that doesn’t feel gratifying.

Your perspective makes no sense.

If Kaz is scum and we kill him, you might die tonight but that means you died after making a guilty on a scum, killing them AND CONFIRMING UNWND TOWN.

If Kaz is town and we kill him, SCUM WILL NEVER KILL YOU.

So if you are town, killing Kaz always either

Catches a scum and confirms a townie before dying (amazing)

or

Gives you two results before you get voted out and then have those results confirmed (confirms unwnd as scum, plus another parity cop outcome)

Why are EITHER OF THESE BAD?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

sometimes i cartoonishly think that im an impact player when im just an easy to townread and loud player.
im accepting that youre probably right that i have no sway in this game but find it a lot more likely for scumYou to try to make me look ridiculous for content than for scumYou to just handwave my assessment of you and kaz.

You think in this game, after my exchange with Dwlee went the way it did and how people have treated me (something you yourself mentioned, so you're aware of it) that I'm capable of making you look ridiculous from my position?

Gork, you're not making any sense.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because getting elimmed tomorrow allows for hopefully two results to be confirmed as trustworthy (I’m not saying accurate because idk what sort of bastard game fuckery might be going on). Getting NKed means there’s only the one result, and that doesn’t feel gratifying.

Your perspective makes no sense.

If Kaz is scum and we kill him, you might die tonight but that means you died after making a guilty on a scum, killing them AND CONFIRMING UNWND TOWN.

If Kaz is town and we kill him, SCUM WILL NEVER KILL YOU.

So if you are town, killing Kaz always either

Catches a scum and confirms a townie before dying (amazing)

or

Gives you two results before you get voted out and then have those results confirmed (confirms unwnd as scum, plus another parity cop outcome)

Why are EITHER OF THESE BAD?

RE: the bolded, I’m worried that’s not the case, which is what is fueling my actions here.

??????????

If scum kills you after we kill kaz and kaz flips town in that outcome

that means scum confirms unwnd is scum instead of letting unwnd kill you with one of our eliminations, and getting an extra scum kill.

why would this ever happen

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD please for the love of god trust me.

Fuck it, I'm done trying to convince people of general mafia concepts.

Vote: Gamma

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Pooks let me be wrong or let me obnoxiously right and I live off my ego for 2 more years.

Or I'm just washed now.

Either one is epic.

You know I still have 0 idea who you are right.

Like none.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm still at the phase where I'm comparing to my past experiences of games and I have to listen to that.

I have never grown out of this and probably never will

If it's any consolation, I'm still dealing with players who have PTSD from certain games which makes it impossible for them to ever trust me.

So.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD

is there a reason that you havent put any kind of effort into casing kazyan if you think theyre the most likely to flip scum out of the three of them?
like, i get the notion of you thinking unwnd/gamma are town via mechanics (or at least im assuming thats what youre saying), but wouldnt articulating why theyre scum based on their play be the easiest course of action here for you to get what you want here?

In what world is the effort of a long behavioural case useful when we have literal mechanical evidence and logic to use.

Like

no Im actually dnoe? I just had an appointment for my GRS and i'm out of fucks to give. my brain is dead

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Kazyan

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm not voting Kaz unless tw promises to target me tonight

Dude, Unwnd are you right, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'd like to believe I am!

Yuck b'y.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

VOTE: Kazyan

I will also say I’m losing faith in my house town read!

Unless I've missed something pretty big during the week, I'd rather not flip Kaz.

There's a guilty on Kaz, if all claims are to be believed, between a parity cop between Unwnd/Kaz and The Worst's town clear on Unwnd via doctor protection.