newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

[Roden]

GLHF

VOTE: Spangled

[Roden]

Unfortunately I know exactly what Cook is doing, which means this is gonna be another weird newbie game.

Cook doing this strat as scum:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928402

T3 copying the strat as town:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87394

[Roden]

Roden, sorry but I'm not reading past games. If you have posts to link to, that's okay. But I'm not reading games unless I generate some WIM.

That's fine, it isn't required reading. More so just some background info on Cook's strat, you can do with it as you wish.

[Roden]

Roden, sorry but I'm not reading past games. If you have posts to link to, that's okay. But I'm not reading games unless I generate some WIM.

That's fine, it isn't required reading. More so just some background info on Cook's strat, you can do with it as you wish.

Meh. I'll probably do it. Just don't feel like it at this point. You're good enough that I'm sure I'll get something out of it.

(that's not a pocket)

Don't worry, I didn't think of it as a pocket. I'll take the compliment though.

yeah, fair enough

Roden, what do you think of Cook’s potentially-NewD3-breaking strategy?

pedit
I like that song, occasionally
y’know, I always thought Ringo was the least interesting of the Beatles
but maybe he was the Thomas Cromwell, the power behind the throne

VOTE: Thynhith

I'm hesitant to trust it since it ultimately helped me win as scum last time I saw it, even when town had a Tracker + Doctor combo and the Rolecop was elim'd Day 1. Granted, T3 might not have followed the strat correctly, but still, I think it's just more likely to help scum than town. If Tracker claims and we don't have a Doc, we're gonna be at a massive disadvantage.

[Roden]

Unfortunately I know exactly what Cook is doing, which means this is gonna be another weird newbie game.

Cook doing this strat as scum:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928402

T3 copying the strat as town:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87394

past games, did the the strat ever work? it sounds like it would out the tracker for a 2/3 chance of being NKd

I don't think the plan itself has ever worked, but it's never been fully acted out yet AFAIK.

I don't like putting too much stock in meta-gaming this early when we're still in RVS. Can we put a pin in this and come back to it late d1 or sometime d2? I don't see the point of putting this much energy in the 1/3 chance there even is a tracker and an even smaller chance said tracker would want to cooperate.

I understand your hesitance, but it's something we kinda have to decide on sooner rather than later if it's going to work.

Roden, sorry but I'm not reading past games. If you have posts to link to, that's okay. But I'm not reading games unless I generate some WIM.

Never heard of WIM before, what does it stand for?

Want It More. Basically, you use it to gauge how much somebody is trying to win and how much effort they're putting into the game.

[Roden]

Also due to past experience with this strat, please nobody allude to being VT in any way here. Because if we only half ass the plan and have people claim not-Tracker, all it does it make it easier for scum to narrow down who to NK tonight.

[Roden]

Also due to past experience with this strat, please nobody allude to being VT in any way here. Because if we only half ass the plan and have people claim not-Tracker, all it does it make it easier for scum to narrow down who to NK tonight.

I think the general rule is never claim VT, really, unless we’re doing a massclaim.

True, I'm just reiterating since that actually happened in my scum game when T3 tried this strat.

[Roden]

I thought it was funny how he looked like he didn’t want the strategy to be done, because it helped him when he was scum, but then kinda said, ‘I understand your hesitance, but it's something we kinda have to decide on sooner rather than later if it's going to work’, which read like he was supporting it to me. But other than that he hasn’t said much or done much; maybe some slight townpoints for pointing out to us the games where your strategy was implemented (or not) and for saying that no one should VT-claim, but that’s inside anyone’s scumrange

He’s in the null-basket, but what can you expect for 6 posts, I guess

I don't think the strategy is a good idea, but I don't want to infer whether I'm VT or PR through my decision. Essentially, I'm willing to participate if everyone else is, and if we are doing it we should do it now.

If we're waiting for Mew I'm fairly certain they dipped out of the web site a few days ago.

[Roden]

I do think it's funny Galron said he isn't pocketing me and then town read me soon afterward lol. But going off his past games I don't think scum!Galron would do that. And no I'm not trying to get comfy in his pocket here.

[Roden]

I do think it's funny Galron said he isn't pocketing me and then town read me soon afterward lol. But going off his past games I don't think scum!Galron would do that. And no I'm not trying to get comfy in his pocket here.

Is it that you don’t think he’d do that as scum, and he must be therefore town, or just that it’s something he could do as town?
(which leaves him open to being scum, of course)

‘cause that’s a small reason to rule him out of being scum; a small reason to essentially locktown him

I never said anything about him being lock town.

I've played a few games with him now, and I'm just starting to pick up on his general tone. I think it's easy to scum read him due to his tone, but it softens a bit when he's scum and he falls a bit more into the background. This is just an assumption but it seems like a natural self-preservation thing to me.

So for me I guess it's less that he town read me off of so little and more because his tone so far is a bit of a meta tell. I'm not town locking him but he's definitely a town read for me.

[Roden]

@Cook:

I'm not necessarily anti-you. I don't think your strategy is scummy either, but I'm glad you understand why I don't trust it. I think if you were solely focused on getting the strategy to go through then my vote would be on you, but you're still at least trying to play the game and get discussion going at the same time.

I agree with the Null read on Thyn though, his posts just feel empty. He asks a couple basic questions but doesn't really do anything with the responses anyone gives him, and the post dissecting Cook's strat looks good but is really just a rewording of what Cook already said before. Kinda just makes me think of scum who isn't sure what to say.

VOTE: Thynhith

[Roden]

I agree with the Null read on Thyn though, his posts just feel empty. He asks a couple basic questions but doesn't really do anything with the responses anyone gives him, and the post dissecting Cook's strat looks good but is really just a rewording of what Cook already said before. Kinda just makes me think of scum who isn't sure what to say.

VOTE: Thynhith

ehhhh, I haven’t looked back but has anyone given them any answers? like, the questions of theirs that I liked were put to Galron, who hasn’t deigned to answer yet

I understand your thought process here though.

I think the Galron question somewhat went unanswered, I think we ended up talking more about it.

@Cook:

I'm not necessarily anti-you. I don't think your strategy is scummy either, but I'm glad you understand why I don't trust it. I think if you were solely focused on getting the strategy to go through then my vote would be on you, but you're still at least trying to play the game and get discussion going at the same time.

I agree with the Null read on Thyn though, his posts just feel empty. He asks a couple basic questions but doesn't really do anything with the responses anyone gives him, and the post dissecting Cook's strat looks good but is really just a rewording of what Cook already said before. Kinda just makes me think of scum who isn't sure what to say.

VOTE: Thynhith

I agree with you, if my posts feel empty it's because they are. I'm honestly not too sure what to do atm. Nothing's really caught my attention so far, cook's done nothing except suggest her strat, others have only a few posts or are lurking like me. It's really only spangled who's been posting avidly.

This is a fair point.

[Roden]

I very much so dislike that PoE from DArby.

Very much so dislike it.

I assume you town read Spangled?

[Roden]

Ah yeah, you said he was town because of sheer content. I actually don't disagree either, from what I've noticed high post counts tend to come from town. Obviously it isn't a hard town tell, but his content doesn't look particularly scummy. I agree that his tone does feel off in certain posts though.

[Roden]

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

So are these two just the scum team to you? Or are you just certain there's one scum between them?

[Roden]

Going by post count at the time you TR'd me, I didn't have much content yet but I've been locktown'd for less, so it's nothing that pings me atm. I'd only be suspicious of it if I was a major scum read, I've said this in other games but scum love to town read me and defend me when I look scummy to get that sweet town cred if/when I flip green.

Tbh I'm more interested in who you scum read since Spangled is a town lean for you now.

[Roden]

Oh shit nice, Val subbed in. I've played with him twice, though I was scum both times. I think he's a pretty strong player with a notably high amount of WIM factor, and I'm already kinda seeing it as I skim the thread.

Gonna start catching up with replies.

[Roden]

I do think it's funny Galron said he isn't pocketing me and then town read me soon afterward lol. But going off his past games I don't think scum!Galron would do that. And no I'm not trying to get comfy in his pocket here.

Is it that you don’t think he’d do that as scum, and he must be therefore town, or just that it’s something he could do as town?
(which leaves him open to being scum, of course)

‘cause that’s a small reason to rule him out of being scum; a small reason to essentially locktown him

I never said anything about him being lock town.

I've played a few games with him now, and I'm just starting to pick up on his general tone. I think it's easy to scum read him due to his tone, but it softens a bit when he's scum and he falls a bit more into the background. This is just an assumption but it seems like a natural self-preservation thing to me.

So for me I guess it's less that he town read me off of so little and more because his tone so far is a bit of a meta tell. I'm not town locking him but he's definitely a town read for me.

@Roden about your meta tell of Galron, do you feel it has changed at all? How confident are you of it? It sounds like not a great deal of difference between scum!Galron and town!Galron. And he does seem to have fallen "into the background" as you say, though hard to say how much.
Imo his tone would normally indicate scuminess - his posts are abrupt and dispassionate, and he seems to be not contributing much, nor engaging. What's your current read of him?

I mainly just want more reads out of him, but looking ahead after this was posted he does start posting more content and giving genuine takes on more things that have happened. So I feel confident enough that I'd say he's never the D1 elim. I don't think my read on him is gonna change much today unless he does something blatantly scummy. I don't really agree that he's falling into the background though, I can recall his posts better than say, Facebones' or Margot's.

Which I guess sounds like I'm shading those two but I genuinely don't remember much of what they've said this game other than being against Cook's strat.

[Roden]

Spangled is getting townread for a high post count when a vast majority are asking questions and then responding to those questions

after

someone answered.

mate, I did that

once

sorry, that’s just such a silly misrep

It's really not but allow me to elaborate and clarify.

The emphasis was supposed to be that a huge chunk your post count is you asking questions. The italics were there to show that you add back and forth with your responses which also brings up your content size. I meant it as a "but wait there's more" kinda way. When writing that last part 110 and 142 came to mind. But again, that wasn't supposed to be the real argument.

You are being townread by content size in 160, 189, and I don't think it's a stretch to add 196 by 1/3 of the participants. I'm critical of that because i fail to see how "sheer content" is a townleaning thing.

For me, it's a combination of what I said before that high post counts are generally +town (more posts from scum mean more chances to slip up and make mistakes), but also I've seen other players who ask a lot of questions as town and get scum read for it. In Spangled's case though I can kind of see what you mean. He's mainly prodding others to generate content rather than just generating content himself, so it's kind of a misrep to say he's town from "sheer content" when a lot of the content isn't actually his.

I'll most likely reevaluate my town lean on him as we approach EoD.

[Roden]

Going by post count at the time you TR'd me, I didn't have much content yet but I've been locktown'd for less, so it's nothing that pings me atm. I'd only be suspicious of it if I was a major scum read, I've said this in other games but scum love to town read me and defend me when I look scummy to get that sweet town cred if/when I flip green.

Tbh I'm more interested in who you scum read since Spangled is a town lean for you now.

I'll get to your question -- sorry I missed it. But I got the impression the first game I was in with you that you were LHF. I found out in other games that you are a strong player, so I don't know if the LHF game was larping or just an off-game. My guess is it was just a game you weren't into.

Spangled I'm back and forth on. Facebones leaning scum. Val leaning scum (very lightly bc of little content and I don't remember what the predecessor did)

Radio Buzz right? I really wanted to get into that one, but I think it was a combination of over-extending myself into too many games at once at the time and just generally finding it hard to break into the town core that game. I probably would've stuck around if it had my full attention and I regret that I never got to really get into it, it was a really interesting concept tbh.

I'm also pretty back and forth on Spangled, I want to let him simmer before I make any hard reads on him. Facebones just doesn't have enough content for me to have a read on him personally. I need more time for Val too, his predecessor never posted though so he's basically just a late arrival.

[Roden]

Not gonna quote Val's posts since he walled a lot, but I'm getting the same vibes from him that I've gotten from his town games. Though Val, what makes you so confident you've already caught the scum pair? Because I've seen you tunnel both town and scum, but it's usually been an individual rather than the scum team as a whole.

[Roden]

After articulating my issues, I'm now a little bit more confident in seeing a red flip with respect to Spangled than I am Cook, although it is close, and I do think

it's possible that's just the scumpair

, gg.

Though Val, what makes you so confident you've already caught the scum pair?

What makes you think Val is "so confident" he's got the scum pair? I'm confused

Val is confident in his reads by default lol. In past games, when he's honed in on a scum read he'll go after them hard. He makes strong points and writes convincing essays, but it's hard to convince him of voting elsewhere. Though to be fair when he honed in on my scum buddy before it did make me sweat.

[Roden]

Had another exhausting day yesterday, sorry about my activity.

Though to be fair when he honed in on my scum buddy before it did make me sweat.

I think you are trying to flatter me, honestly. I took a 2 month break because of the sheer frustration I felt after having my 'essay writing' gameplay style openly mocked by other townies whilst nobody really listened. It didn't help that it happened it in two games I was playing in simultanously, and I was ultimately proven right in both cases.

On the subject, Cook dipping in to answer Thynhith's question on an acrynom but otherwise not engaging is giving me SavetheDragons vibes from that game all over again.

I understand your frustration, I really do. I'm probably gonna take a break from the site for a bit after I get through my current games myself.

Also I unfortunately kinda agree with your sentiment on Cook. She's not really defending herself and I don't know why.

[Roden]

I don't agree with all of Margot's reads, particularly about Spangled and Galron, but I do like them. I don't feel great about Darby's alignment but I don't hard scum read him, and at this point Cook is coming off a lot worse.

@Margot:

What makes you put Cook at Null now even though you were going hard at her earlier as being likely scum?

[Roden]

I don't think any of the players here would lolhammer, and if any did I'd consider it a scum claim regardless of Cook's alignment flip, since it doesn't really seem like it's in anyone's town range. I'm tempted to put Cook at E-1 just to see if anyone actually would fall for it, but honestly I'd rather she just start defending herself. I don't understand the silence on her end, like what's the point of it here? She has to know it just makes her look bad, so why is she doing it?

[Roden]

Jesus what did I wake up to

I legit had stress dreams that Cook flipped as Tracker and freaked out when she got fake hammered during my skim

[Roden]

Cook, do you have any town leans or scum leans at this point?

Would have responded to #362 but RL is fun as always.

With the perspective of a nondescript town player who's at the point of no return I'll offer my "I've stepped back and here's what I've noticed":

DArby put trust in strategies please. there's a thing called sacrifice that you have to do sometimes. You're still town.
Galron don't ignore walls. read games please. Null.
Thynhith scumlean.
MargotRosa townlean.
Roden scumlean.
Val89 i for some reason am trusting. townlean.
Facebones is nulltown.
Spangled possibly is scum.


going in to day two i'll take this much out of the strategy as a suggestion. If you get an FN message claim it but not who sent it until either you or person are at E-1. once two people claim FN messages we have effectively an activated IC which is pretty cool.

I think I get it now.

I don't understand the scum lean on me and I actually think Thyn has looked a little better as the game as gone on. Not a town lean but at least Null.

I could follow you on a Spangled vote if you're willing to trust me.

[Roden]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

This implies that if Cook is town that you think they're wrong about more or less everything though.

I get why you're so insistent about why Spangled is town but a Darby vote just feels off.

[Roden]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

This implies that if Cook is town that you think they're wrong about more or less everything though.

I get why you're so insistent about why Spangled is town but a Darby vote just feels off.

Again, this is going to sound mean, but my Town read of Cook rests almost entirely on thinking that they're wrong about more or less everything, so yes, I do believe that

Oof.

I actually believe that you mean this, I don't think scum ever makes a statement like this.

[Roden]

Margot, Val, you're most likely both town and this back and forth is just gonna make a great cover for scum to hide in. Can you two please call a truce for now so we can figure out what the fuck is going on with Cook in

this

game, not whatever her intentions were in a scum PT in a completely different game from a month ago?

PE: Thank you.

[Roden]

Let Cook claim first before the hammer.

[Roden]

hey wait was that a hammer

VOTE: Cook

You predicted the future.

[Roden]

VOTE: Cook

Just in case.

[Roden]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

This implies that if Cook is town that you think they're wrong about more or less everything though.

I get why you're so insistent about why Spangled is town but a Darby vote just feels off.

Is Darby above suspicion for you?

Far from that, I think the sudden pivot itself to voting Darby was really off. Margot's pushes in the last 24 hours are giving me whiplash, especially since Margot vs Val reads as an extremely stubborn TvT faceoff.

[Roden]

Not a fan all the "wtf why Galron" reactions, I've done that so many times as scum.

I'm glad he wasn't pocketing me in the end but his death felt like a newbie mistake. Which yeah obviously this is a newbie game, but Galron ended the day hinting that he was going to protect Val. I don't think a PR would be so blatant, but newbscum high on an easy mis-elim might go for it.

I don't think Val is scum here as I'd expect him to kill me or Margot, since I labeled their back and forth as TvT. I think I'd actually be a pretty good kill since it would be low info and make it look like Galron had TMI'd that I was town. For that reason I'd also expect Margot to kill Val, so I don't think she's scum either.

[Roden]

This game is super quiet. Thanks, Val, for putting in the effort. Your work on cook seems solid. Somehow it still feels like lhf, but it's a decent case.

VOTE: Cook

would appreciate someone explaining what lhf means?

low hanging fruit?

Yep. Basically someone who is an easy push due to either bad early game play or just bad reputation.

[Roden]

Not a fan all the "wtf why Galron" reactions, I've done that so many times as scum.

I'm glad he wasn't pocketing me in the end but his death felt like a newbie mistake. Which yeah obviously this is a newbie game, but Galron ended the day hinting that he was going to protect Val. I don't think a PR would be so blatant, but newbscum high on an easy mis-elim might go for it.

I don't think Val is scum here as I'd expect him to kill me or Margot, since I labeled their back and forth as TvT. I think I'd actually be a pretty good kill since it would be low info and make it look like Galron had TMI'd that I was town. For that reason I'd also expect Margot to kill Val, so I don't think she's scum either.

I don't think we should focus too much on the nk right now. Just because you labeled it as TvT doesn't mean a kill of the other is the only logical conclusion. I'd think that'd place a lot of suspicion on the other actually because they had such a spat. But again, WIFOM.

What changed on your reads list?

My perspective on the TvT scenario is that if Margot or Val have one scum between them, killing the other or me makes more sense than killing Galron. I don't believe either would ever believe Galron's fake crumbs, and removing the opposing force through a NK rather than a mis-elim gets their hands a lot less dirty.

Also, I'll be honest, I initially thought one of them was bussing Cook. They were both fighting to be the one that "caught" Cook and get the town cred for voting her out, and I was low key hoping by calling them TvT that they would keep me alive as a potential pocket, when in reality I was going to hard accuse that Cook got bussed. But with her flipping town, not only was there not a bus after all, neither scum!Margot or scum!Val had any reason to keep me or the other alive.

My reads now are strong town reads on Margot and Val. I keep drifting into scum reading Face and Spangled, but despite the massive difference in post count they both occasionally post something really insightful and townie, and end up town leaning them. This leaves you and Thyn where I have the opposite problem, where I keep wanting to town read you but you'll post something that pings the hell out of me or you'll say something just feels off and misaligned with the rest of town.

Also I think it'd be weird to hide behind a kill from an argument off of one slot with one post saying it's TvT.

Not entirely true, Cook was calling them both town leans, and I don't remember anyone disagreeing with either of us.

[Roden]

I do t trust myself to read Roden. Certainly not D2. I can maybe have a good look soon, but I lost to him recently and had very very little clue that they could even have been scum at all

There were a lot of factors in that game, but if it helps the biggest indicators for my scum meta are pretty consistent if you check my past games. I think the fact Galron is dead should help determine my alignment. He town read me all game, and you know from our last game with what happened with T3 that I don't fall for PR crumbs.

[Roden]

I don't think a PR would be so blatant, but newbscum high on an easy mis-elim might go for it.

that was my thought, too, actually

dang you actually beat me to my revelation; I was here thinking I had something and you had it already

I'll accept that we just mind melded here. I forgot about that Cop crumb actually, so you actually make a better detailed point here.

[Roden]

I'm here. Sorry I've been quiet, work kicked my ass the last couple days, I haven't had much sleep, and I just went on vacation.

Game state feels weird from what I've skimmed, a lot of people seem too scared to seriously push anything. Nothing's happened to affect my reads from the last time I gave them either.

Does anyone have a town case for Darby or Thyn? Because we should be voting there, I don't like the Facebones votes. I can town case him later tonight if no one sees the town posts that have pinged me, from there we can probably just PoE solve.

If there any posts I missed that somebody wanted me to respond to, could you quote it please? I'm drifting off and on into sleep.

[Roden]

facebones what are your thoughts on spangled

Jury's still out on that one. I'm a little suspicious of 123 and 142, could it be an attempt at buddying?
I don't feel like my three posts should put me at the top of anyones townpile.

On the other hand I feel he was sincere about his initial apprehension and questioning of your plan, trying to get a firmer grasp on it to see if it would indeed be beneficial for town. When reading through, I noticed the questions he was asking were similar to questions I myself was thinking

Self-awareness usually comes from scum, but this thought process of "why are you town reading me" and explaining why town reading him off of so little doesn't sit right with him feels like a really townie mindset. Scum are more likely to just take the town read without a fight here.

After articulating my issues, I'm now a little bit more confident in seeing a red flip with respect to Spangled than I am Cook, although it is close, and I do think

it's possible that's just the scumpair

, gg.

Though Val, what makes you so confident you've already caught the scum pair?

What makes you think Val is "so confident" he's got the scum pair? I'm confused

This read as a town perspective slip to me. This is another questioning post where he doesn't understand another player's perspective but isn't shading when doing so. Scum doesn't care about these kinds of details.

The change I was thinking of was https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928671

VOTE: No elimination.

vs the one in this game

never no eliminate d1.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12936258

If we no-eliminate, that will likely put us at 2 scum 6 town and we can get a confirm townie tomorrow.

This one as well as scum trying to convince people no elim D1 is a good strategy

She's changed her tune a little bit
Granted she might've just pushed the no elim back to D2 instead of D1

Here he does his homework and points out the inconsistencies that Val was asking for others to point out. Again, this is something he really didn't have to do as scum.

In addition to this, while his post quantity is low overall, nothing jumps out to me as super scummy, and his Day 2 posts have been strong. He's generally coming off as solvey to me, just not in as many words as Val Margot or Spangled .

[Roden]

Congrats mafia team! Sorry for dropping, I overestimated how much time I'd have to play and should've just put in V/LA. Glad to see you two still pulled off the win though, well played.