newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

[Val89]

Cook, Roden, nice to see you again. Everyone else, it is a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Given that we appear to be well past RVS, I will dispense with the trademark first post bullshit and dive right into my opening thoughts.

Those thoughts are around this:

I believe that Cook believes the strategy is a legitimate one.

I gave this game a brief skim before I approached Schadd_ to replace in, and obviously the discussion of Cooks 'strategy' was the stand out feature. I have a reaction to it that, frankly, I am surprised no one appears to have brought up yet and I strongly disagree with the above.

We are playing a NewD3 setup, in the newbie queue. I understand it is called "NewD3'' because it has replaced previous newbie setups, and while I haven't looked into it, it is possible the previous setups were replaced because they were found to have balancing issues pertaining to strategies which grant a town advantage, but I fully suspect this setup was designed to be resistant to such strategies, and it appears to be a setup that has stood repeated testing. Nonetheless, I grant that Cook may well be the player to crack it - that is something I can believe - that Cook has, or at least believes herself to have, come up with a strategy that exposes a flaw in NewD3 and leads to a town advantage.

I am being asked to believe, however, that having done so, she then rolls scum in 2075 and, rather than sit on that strategy until she gets a town PM, she is so keen to get it out in the wild, she goes ahead and acts in a way that she believes is detrimental to her faction? No; that doesn't pass the sniff test to me.

I haven't sat and gamed out all the possibilities just yet, but on that basis alone I suspect the strategy is at best, neutral, and perhaps even beneficial to scum. It appears to me that we lose information we might ordinarily gain from seeing the somewhat normally 'free' choice of N1 nightkill we get if the game proceeds as is usual, with no PR claims going into N1. In any case, even if it's not immediately apparent why it's bad, the fact that it was first proposed by Cook playing scum, when it would have been very easy to hold it in reserve for a town game, suggest that Cook doesn't actually believe it to be legitimate, if by legitimate Thynhith means 'leads to a town advantage'.

I admit I am struggling to see why Cook would go ahead and propose the same thing again if it +scum, but the above is sufficient for me to have serious questions about her motives and enough to place my vote there. On the question of the actual strategy itself, I think we claim as is usual - that is to say, you

don't

claim, as any PR, unless you are at E-1 or otherwise have a very good reason to.

VOTE: Cook.

[Val89]

In more concrete terms; here is scum!Cook outlining the scum side of the strategy in 2075s Mafia PT:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

Day One, I'm going to ask the Tracker to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
Reasoning: If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
As no Tracker exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
Day Two, I'm going to ask for a Cop to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's no protectives if Cop claims and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
If no Cop claims then you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player. If a Jailkeeper pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If Masons claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

It is apparently a "modification" of a super strategy for town, presumably meaning there is some tweak here that stublely turns it from +town to +scum.

For completeness, here is the post in that case where Cook outlined the strategy to town in that game.

Now, compare and contrast that to how it was outlined in #76. You would expect some slight modification if this was a town!Cook now outlining the REAL +town superstrat - the secret sauce that means scum can't do the above. Except I can't see a difference. It looks

EXACTLY

the same.

In fact, the fact that it appears to be this obvious is giving me some slight pause. Is she really as audacious as to go ahead and pull the same thing again in plain view and expect not to be found out straight away? You would have to expect to see some modification to the strategy for this to be +town now when the exact same thing was outlined as +scum to her scum partner in 2075, but unless I am being totally dim, I can't see it.

Can everyone else put some eyes on this and tell me what it is I am missing here?

[Val89]

I very much so dislike that PoE from DArby.

Very much so dislike it.

I'm guessing you ain't going to like the fact I am also leaning the same way.

I dislike Spangled. I know he has picked up a TR from a few players based on volume, that appears to be driven by Cook; the other player on this list I am having serious doubts about.

Looking closer, however, and that fluff:substance ratio that was spoken about appears skewed strongly in the fluff direction. There are entire runs of posts, 16 through 20 as an example, where I struggle to pick out a salient game-advancing point - 'Cook might be scum, then again, she might not - confidence might be towntell, might not' etc.

There is an awful lot of "X, what do you think of Y?" posts; and in general, I am detecting a vibe of someone who cares a fair bit about what other players think of his slot - ref #83, #89 and 90 (this one particularly got my back up - something that seems to paraphrase as "yeah, voting me is anti-town, but what else is he doing" is just..odd), #153; as well as the general defensiveness in the last couple of posts. I don't like it one bit.

I like Cook more lately, I thought the pressure vote on MargotRosa was good

Margot Rosa’s not looking that great, so far, but there’s not enough to read her on really truly
I thought 161 was awful
I mean, ‘calling out bad plays’ but so far the only ‘bad play’ she’s ‘called out’ has been Cook’s
just the tone in general isn’t great
I don’t know, I really want to see how her read on Cook evolves over time

I don't know. I'm worried this is a little too easy; but I really don't like Cook nor Spangled, either separately or together. Spangled certainly seems focused primarily on how his own slot is perceived, followed by Cooks. I don't know if I am ready to call this game solved, just because it seems too easy, but I'm willing to go on record and say if there isn't at least ONE scum in that pair, I will be very surprised.

That said, the Cook V MargotRosa spat, as much as it was, seems genuine enough for me to say I'm reasonably confident that it wasn't Scum theatre, so that's at least some progress.

[Val89]

Technically, I guess you could argue Spangled asking X what they think about Y could go some way to helping Spangled sort slot X, like he claims to do in this exchange, in relation to Facebones:

if he were scum, me asking him if he thought DArby was whiteknighting me was me essentially giving scum!him a plausible-sounding read that he could use to introduce discord in the town
it was a great opportunity for scum!him to jump on DArby, but he didn’t
of course he could have just been playing it safe, but I think it’s still a point in his favour

For the record, Facebones response was:

I mean, I guess there's a chance. I have accused people of whiteknighting in the past and been rather embarrassed about the whole ordeal afterwards though. Due to that, and because it's still early stages, I'm gonna put it down to being NAI

"I guess there is a chance" doesn't read like the disavowal Spangled would have us beleive.

142 could be construed as buddying, but I’m confident in my facebones read so far, and I ask others to deny its logic

I will. As above, I think it's a very weak reason to TR someone, particulary with that ISO, and the fact that Spangled actually

prompted

the exchange, by specifically asking if he thought D'Arby was whiteknighting smells like Spangled trying hard to set up a townread that wasn't, and still isn't, justified. FB is null for me, and I fail to find reasons to justify anything different. In short, I think it WAS buddying, or else evidence of TMI on Spangled's part.

[Val89]

Are you ruling out town vs scum for that one?

No, I am ruling out Cook v Margot as Scum v Scum. I'm pretty confident they aren't the pair. It's possible they are both town but I've enough misgivings about Cook to put my initial vote there, and that leads me to Margot basically leaning town by default, as it were.

Let my try again with those links:

I am detecting a vibe of someone who cares a fair bit about what other players think of his slot - ref #83, #89 and 90 (this one particularly got my back up - something that seems to paraphrase as "yeah, voting me is anti-town, but what else is he doing" is just..odd), #153; as well as the general defensiveness in the last couple of posts. I don't like it one bit. "

If it's easier; here are the direct quotes from each that ping me:

Spoiler: Ping!

also, could you case me?

maybe you see my tone as bad, which is fair, I guess, but at the very least I’ve asked for opinions on subjects, which is the most game-advancing thing anyone’s done so far

Why do you think Galron’s anti-town, DArby?
like he’s voting me, but what has he done that’s anti-town?

still, I’ve made about 50 posts so far, take away those fifty-odd posts and we’d be on page 5

too much information

Correct. I am suggesting it's possible Spangled is able to hold such a strong, and in my opinion unjustified, townread on Facebones because he actually knows for a fact FB is town because he ain't in the scumthread with him.

[Val89]

After articulating my issues, I'm now a little bit more confident in seeing a red flip with respect to Spangled than I am Cook, although it is close, and I do think it's possible that's just the scumpair, gg.

It's late here, so I will sleep on it and revisit in the morning; but I am giving consideration to moving my vote to Spangled in order to properly indicate how I feel here. I'll also try and give some thoughts on the other slots.

[Val89]

Val, what makes you so confident you've already caught the scum pair?

I'm not 100% confident, but I've got exactly two slots that are giving me pretty heavy scumvibes, I'm seeing a few little pings that suggest to me they might come as a pair (see the stated concern Spangled is showing specifically for how reads are evolving on Cook I refered to in 230, and how the initial, and to my mind incorrect, TR concensus that was building around Spangled before I came in was driven by Cook, for examples) and I don't know what other conclusion I can reasonably draw. The fact that it seems just all a little TOO easy is giving me pause right now.

Cook in particular, I think I have to missing something. I know I've drawn a little bit of flack for focusing on the 'strategy', given that it clearly isn't being implemented, but the mere fact of it's proposal in the again is the issue at hand, to my mind. It isn't every game you have someone representing they have some sort of setup breaking strat, and Cook is basically playing an exact replicia of her scum game in 2075, and like, why on earth would you do that, as either alignment, frankly?

Very early on, Spangled says this:

so I guess actually, maybe townpoints if they have a decent strategy, scum equity if it just straight up sucks

The fact of the matter is that Cook outlined this exact strategy to her scum buddy in 2075, and it's very clearly +scum; which I would suggest qualifies as "straight up sucks". She says it's "a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.", and we can suppose there is probably no reason for her to lie at that point to her scum buddy in a private thread, and there exists a

modification

of the strategy outlined that she thinks is actually +town.

I've asked for others to put eyes on it again and find what the modification between 2075 and this game is, and noone has done so. Cook

herself

has posted to the thread in the meantime and could have very easily said "actually, Val, here is what is different" and cleared the whole thing up, and she didn't. That suggests strongly that there isn't any modification - even though we didn't bite, we were openly being asked by Cook to run a +scum strat.

So, the question becomes why, and why be so blatent about it? Something doesn't compute, and the only way I can square it is that Cook, having put the work in coming up with this cleaver strat that can be presented as being +town, but is actually +scum as described in that PT, has decided that by Jove if they aren't going to get at least one scum win out of it, even if they have to run the same game again the very next time they get a red PM. The fact that I am sitting here thinking "too scummy to be scum" is part of the advantage.

I've already outlined my case against Spangled in a fair bit of detail. You are correct, Roden, in that I have on occasion tunneled town; but I have also been right on more than one occasion and I think until I have a better reason to doubt it than "this is too easy", I'm going to have to trust my gut. Perhaps not quite the pair, but there has to be at least one scum there, I think, and I wouldn't be altogether

SHOCKED

if this did turn out to be a game we look back on in a few days and think "Wow, hero solved by page 11".

[Val89]

The game Roden pointed out where Cook did pre much the exact same thing i.e. tracker claiming is always on my mind
I think there might be a couple of slight differences?

If you think there is any differences, however slight, you need to point them out. That speaks directly to the heart of the matter and might well change things.

I don't see any. What have you seen?

[Val89]

Yes, but while Cook voted for Nolim in 2075, the strategy that was outlined both publically, and in the scum thread didn't require a nolim - if fact, the post preceding the one you linked first is very clear that the expected outcome on D1 was in fact the mislim of a townie.

If you read what was posted to the scum thread, the strategy is +scum because it magnifies the impact of the little bit of extra setup information that scum have over town - which column we are in - by inducing the town PRs to reveal which row we are in early, and doing so in such a way that town

thinks

that a) that's good for town when it isn't, and b) as a result, the person doing the proposal is townlocked. If town

don’t

buy it, then they just get b) out of the deal.

As an aside, that makes this...

if people townread me for posting an organized plan for town to play off of that’s fine, i put forth the strategy so town wins, not so i get locktowned.

...a bare faced lie, because that's exactly what was supposed to happen, as well as (if executed) clear the way for the scumbuddy to either convincingly fake claim cop or tracker, or trade the buddy for both town PRs N2 and N3.

None of the above is predicated on a nolim. If she had convinced town to give her one while also getting townlocked, that would have just been a little bonus. The strategy wasn't followed in 2075, but Cook did get widely townread for suggesting it. The whole thing fell apart because someone replaced in D2 close to the deadline in a stall, and opened by saying they didn't buy the strategy: "Why haven't you guys voted off the person whose strategy was literally "role fish"?" and basically the 5 hour time pressure convinced enough townies to switch to Cook to seemingly avoid the default nolim. She got unlucky in that the person who replaced in at that point didn't buy it, and I think she came close enough to justify to herself trying the whole thing again, knowing that we are again unlikley to actually execute the strategy, but maybe trade on the "nobody is stupid enough to do the same thing twice, are they?" doubts we are having right now to get townlocked even harder.

TLDR: The reason why the strat is +scum isn't to do with convincing town to nolim at any point, and I don't believe Cook was expecting to actually do so in 2075.

[Val89]

You asked for slight differences, and I mentioned one about Cook advocating for no elim on D1 as scum.
You were rather verbose in your reply, but I think the message you were trying to portray is that no lim would've just been an added bonus to scum being able to narrow down the set up possibilities better than town?

To be fair to you, I hadn't noticed the D1 nolim suggestion - I was looking at the outline of the strategy in the scum thread and trying to figure what was different about it this time, which means scum can't pull off the exact same trick, and I couldn't.

It's not that nolim would have an added bonus in scum narrowing down the setup - they get that nolim or not, and I don't think the nolim helps; it's just widely regarded that a D1 nolim is good for scum (they essentially just get a get to start the game off with a free kill n1), and so in the confusion of outlining the strategy if town blindly brought it that somehow that isn't true in the case the tracker claims D1, that's a brucey bonus that helps scum even more, but it's isn't actually part of the strategy itself. I think it speaks to the audacity of the plan Cook decided to throw that one in.

Is there any advantage to town you can see from Cook's proposed strategy?

None.

Why is it you think Spangled is a higher chance of flipping scum than Cook?

The sheer blind-faced gall of it all on the part of Cook would seem to stretch the realms of credibility, frankly. First game, she comes in as scum, claims to have broken a well-tested setup, asks everyone to trust her and for town PRs to go ahead and start claiming, knowing that is going to put people on guard. When she is inevitably challenged, she then outlines a strategy that is calculated to appear as though it might lead to a town advantage, but actually is good for scum, as she explains in detail to her scumbuddy. She also has the gall to also suggest a D1 nolim, and even though town don't buy into that nor the claiming, they do townread her for it, and she sails by until an unfortunate replacement right at the end of D2.

Next game, she comes in and, excluding the d1 nolim suggestion, does exactly the same. It's just so outrageous, I have to start second guessing myself. I do wonder if that is the intent, though. It's "too scummy to be scum" taken to the extreme.

Spangled, on the other hand is much more straightforward, and everything else aside, if they aren't the pair; and I have to decide if I am in a newbie game where mafia is trying to scam us with a ridiculous display of open-wolfing, or a more traditional nervous newbscum just slipping here and there slightly, and I think that being honest with myself I have to conclude the latter as more probable.

As such:

VOTE: Spangled

I wish I could figure out what the fuck Cook is playing at though. I fear this is going to hang over us all game otherwise.

[Val89]

Though to be fair when he honed in on my scum buddy before it did make me sweat.

I think you are trying to flatter me, honestly. I took a 2 month break because of the sheer frustration I felt after having my 'essay writing' gameplay style openly mocked by other townies whilst nobody really listened. It didn't help that it happened it in two games I was playing in simultanously, and I was ultimately proven right in both cases.

On the subject, Cook dipping in to answer Thynhith's question on an acrynom but otherwise not engaging is giving me SavetheDragons vibes from that game all over again.

[Val89]

I think it goes without saying that I HARD disagree with the townlock on Spangled; and in fact, I have an objection to 'townlocking' anyone at this stage, particulary if you are telling us you haven't read the whole game. Perhaps it's a terminiology thing, but I might townlock an uncontested PR claim at this point, and very little else - certainly the mere fact of refering to having read another game would never reach that bar for me, if for no other reason than that would otherwise be a very easy way for scum to pick up unwarrented towncred but simply doing so in all their games.

Given that Margot does say those reads are based on a partial read of the game, I think I will be better served waiting to see if and how those develop before commenting in detail. I don't generally find people scummy for having different reads than me, provided the justifcation makes sense, but there is a fair bit about the reasons given that I have to wrinkle my nose at a bit. There are more than a couple of posts linked and being decribed at 'filler' that I simply don't think match that charactrisation while seemingly giving a pass to the most filler-y ISO out there. I also have to express some suprise at Cook landing as a "Null" read overall.

On the subject of Cook, I find myself entirely unsatisfied by the last couple of posts. She clearly said to her scumparter in 2075 that the strategy she was presenting was a

modification

of one she come up with for town; but she has presented exactly the same stategy, and tries to tell us the modification is that simply she is town this time? Makes zero sense. I am wondering why, if she is town, the scumteam in this game can't just follow the playbook she laid out to WhemeStar in 2075 and gain the same scum advantage, and her being town this time doesn't go any way towards explaining that.

To then just start mainically calling everyone scum and taking an adversaial tone to the entire game smells strongly like another one of those "do something so outragously scummy people think it can't possibly actually be coming from scum", which seemed to be her strategy in her last scum game (with the d1 nolim suggestion) etc which almost worked. In fact, as DArby pointed out in 272, I have to be careful I'm not falling into the same trap myself right here, in having Spangled over Cook because I think the scumtells in Spangled are a bit more 'normal'.

The naked unvote of Margot when she is in no danger at all can be nothing more than an unspoken "I like what you are saying" signal. I have to be careful I am not falling for confirmation bias here, but I wonder what exactly it is about Margots posting that Cook is trying to signal she likes. I'm wondering if anyone else has any gut instinct on what it might be, just so I can be a bit more confident I'm not confbiasing here?

[Val89]

First, you say this...

Margot really doesn't like rvs.

...which makes me think you are paying attention and have spotted some of same stuff in Margots posting. +10 town points.

Then you go and vote Mew

Is that another one of these moments?

I'm interested in the fluff:substance ratio.

wrt to Spangled, whoever pointed out fluff to substance ratio got me thinking

[Val89]

I just chuckled, imagining you talking to yourself.

[Val89]

Val the issue I have here is I think you're tunneling too hard. You're picking up on lots of small "tells" here and there and it looks like a plausible newbscum.

It's possible. The issue is that in most games scum don't walk in and announce themselves (which is exactly why I decided to vote Spangled over Cook, in the end), scum do reveal themselves by way of small tells here and there.

Which posts do you think have a nervous tone to them? His constant questioning seems like his choice, rather than aiming to misdirect town.

I'm not taking issue with the questioning in and of itself. The 'nervousness' is in how his own slot is being received, and he seems to have been keen to remind us of all the townie things other people said he had been doing. I give examples in the spoiler of 240; which he then owns up to in 242. I admit the mere fact of acknowledging it works in his favour, but I think it wouldn't have gone well for him to deny it, given how self-evident it has been.

Town don't usually worry about how your slot is being perceived - that's a scum trait. Fine, you would rather avoid getting mislimmed if you can help it, and people can get defensive under pressure, but it's not normally a priority to solicit feedback on your own standing, or remind how towny you are.

[Val89]

@Val can I get your opinion on the possibility of scum!Darby?

I'll give my initial opinions on all the slots, if you like.

I'm townreading

DArby

. I think I got a little advantage on this one because I replaced in. I was reading a game already in progress, and while doing so, I found on more than one occasion the thoughts and questions I had were being often asked by DArby a couple of posts later. I've found this in other games and considered it a towntell, and it hasn't let me down yet. He also seems to be trying to drive the day towards an elimination even if have a slight disagreement on whom is the better choice for today (cf 181, 270). That might not always be a +town thing, but it has been directed against legitimately scummy players, and I think scum would be more content to let this game stall out a bit, which it has potential to do.

I'm also townreading

Roden

, because I've lost 2 of my games to a scum!Roden now, and recently, so I think if there was any funny business going on with respect to him, I think I would be hyper alert to it. I felt like I was having my ego massaged a little bit when I entered, but the feeling is mutual, I think he is an excellent player too, else I wouldn't be losing to him, and apart from that, I haven't seen anything that pings me.

Roden does say in his last post that he doesn't "feel great about Darby's alignment", so I have looked since at what scummy things DArby has been accused of, and I don't agree. Margot seems to be the only one with justification, and it's extremely weak to my eyes. To describe 14, or 72 and the correction of a formatting issue in 73 as "ISO filler" is really stretching it. The only thing that might legitimately be criticised was the Spangled E-2 vote at 59, but it was explained (and unvoted) at 71 when pointed out; and I'm willing to accept that explanation over it being a scum motivated attempt at securing a quick hammer on page 3. How many games do scum

actually

manage to pull that off and not immediately get the boot next day? Not many, I'll wager.

I don't really think I have enough of a handle on you,

Thynhith

, or

Facebones

, to call you anything other than null. Certainly I think Spangled's TR on Facebones was unjustified, and if it is TMI, that makes them townleaning, which is one thing I think we might get out of a Spangled flip today.

MargotRosa, I said I was townleaning by default because of her spat with Cook not feeling SvS, but I've not liked her justification on her reads much, but apparently she was only considering the first 5 pages, so we shall see. I'm feeling

MargotRosa

a little more scumleaning of late as a result.

Galron is a bit of an enigma for me right now. I see reasons to call it both ways. He says and does things that makes me think he isn't paying all that much attention to the game, or else is just anti-town if true, like 81, and then says some insightful stuff in a couple of words which make it clear HE is following and thinking in the same directions I am, like and 295. If you had to pin me down right now, I would say overall

Galron

is a very slight townlean as of now, but I have oscillated a little bit with this slot.

You know my opinions on

Spanged

, and

Cook

. I think that covers everything.

[Val89]

you may think differently but disagreeing on reads shouldn’t be a part of your scumcase of someone.

As you belatedly acknowledge, this is a big misrepresentation. I've already said I

don't

scumread people for having different reads as long as the justification makes at least some sense. Yours doesn't.

You have to think back to what it was like, on page 5 or whatever, whenever I made that Facebones read. Galron had said one-liners and little else — huh actually maybe nothing’s changed here — and by and large all we’d talked about was Cook’s strategy. Very little that was AI there. Sure Roden had been helpful but anyone can post links or be helpful; scum often do it early game to get some sweet, sweet cheap towncred. Not that Roden’s scum, and not that that kinda stuff can’t aid town, but it’s not AI-enough, if you know what I mean.

The problem is, if as you say Galron has mere one-liners, and Roden had only stuff you thought you couldn't really consider AI; then Facebones had

even less

at that point. In fact, he had so little (3 very short posts!), I can post the entire ISO below:

Spoiler: Facebones ISO at the time

Sorry for my absence, I was either sleeping or working. On my lunch break now, but before I go back some food for thought: not reading a player's post due to apathy seems worse than not reading it due to laziness. Galron, is it just Cook's posts you're apathetic towards? Why?

I'm not apathetic toward Cook's posts. I just don't feel like reading them. I guess maybe that is apathy; I don't know. Everyone else's posts are much shorter. That's got something to do with it. Cook could be open-wolfing (I have a personal bias against that term btw), but I don't know.

It seems that if anyone is wolfing (there's that term again) it up again,

I

, and everyone else, would be alerted to it. In a succinct manner ofc.

Unless that person is Cook, because how can you be alert to an open wolf if you don't feel like reading their lengthy posts? Start being more motivated, goddamn it.

hey, Facebones, you reckon DArby’s whiteknighting me a wee bit?

I mean, I guess there's a chance. I have accused people of whiteknighting in the past and been rather embarrassed about the whole ordeal afterwards though. Due to that, and because it's still early stages, I'm gonna put it down to being NAI

How come you're anxious to hear about what Thynhith makes of my entrance? Like, why him specifically?

The first

2

are all you had to go at the time you posted 110 and indicated you had a read on Facebones, and he had simply asked YOU a question when you actual delivered that read in 142.

I don't think anyone can honestly read that as say it is enough "poking and prodding", or "mindmelding" enough to justify any sort of read, never mind such a strong one. Even if I give you a huge benefit of the doubt, and say 'Well, Spangled is just the type to give big reads more on gut and not on a whole lot of evidence', at the same time you had this to say in respect to Roden:

He’s in the null-basket, but what can you expect for 6 posts, I guess

.

I'm sorry, but I can't, even with the best will in the world, tally this up and end up with you as town. I think the simplest explanation is you already knew Facebones alignment for a fact, and are manufacturing the justification. I think it's more likely that's because he is town and not in a thread with you, rather than him being scumbuddies with you, but I am not confident enough of that to townread him on that basis alone. This isn't the only reason I am scumreading you either, but it's a part of it that's fairly compelling to my eyes, and I don't think it can be fairly described as "disagreeing on reads".

[Val89]

In any case, it looks like people think Cook is the better flip for the day, although I still contend there is a chance Spangled and Cook just end up being the team.

With that in mind, I'm wondering if your argument against voting for Cook is scum motivated. 3 days is just enough time I don't think I need to go ahead and vote myself here without a bit of discussion, but I do think we have to be careful not to let this game stall out - which like I said before, I think it has potential for, and I feel will only benifit scum. Clearly, Cook has been quite content to let things ride.

You should all be aware by now what Cook considers the scum playbook for this situation, where no tracker does bite the bullet and claims D1. If you don't, I would consider that fairly negligent if you are town, given how we have gotten here. If you haven't already, go read it now, so you don't have to take my word for it as to what I suspect may well happen next. The first 10 posts are the important part.

It's fairly clear that we may need a day or two for every player to check in to sort out anything that comes as a result of putting a scummy player working from that playbook to E-1, and the only reason I am not doing so myself at this point is in case Cook does decide to depart from that strategy and self-hammer, in a situation where I have two players sat at null reads, and another player who I am scumleaning on the basis of a partial read that might change when she returns to the thread.

If there is any chance of a self-hammer, I want to make sure if there is anyone who wants to say something else that they have had a chance to say it, but because of the above, I am giving notice that my intent is to vote Cook once people have a chance to wiegh in.

[Val89]

Val, I think you’ve got your mind made up on me and nothing I say will change that.

That's not really a fair assesment. You took issue with a part of why I am scumreading you - that I considered the early and strong townread on Facebones when his ISO was 3 very short posts as indicative of TMI.

You responded to that, giving further explaination as to why you said you did. I took that onboard, and examined it. I think my 327, which was probably the post you meant to quote above, is fairly clear evidence I took some time examining that explaination to see it holds. I did so because, if it did, I would have been prepared to adjust my view in light of it. I am afraid though, that it didn't.

I haven't just merely asserted that it didn't. I've done the legwork and linked the posts - all public information - and invited others to look at draw their own conclusions based upon it. Even if its framed as a conversation between the two of us, you weren't actually the audiance for that post, I'm not trying to convince you that you are scum, obviously.

If the issue is that I did write it as if I was talking directly to you in the first person, then I shall refain from doing so in future; but I don't really think it's fair for you to try and suggest I'm not giving you a fair shake as a result of me making a post that takes your explaination and tests it against the available evidence.

[Val89]

The naked unvote of Margot when she is in no danger at all can be nothing more than an unspoken "I like what you are saying" signal. I have to be careful I am not falling for confirmation bias here, but I wonder what exactly it is about Margots posting that Cook is trying to signal she likes. I'm wondering if anyone else has any gut instinct on what it might be, just so I can be a bit more confident I'm not confbiasing here?

This might have been missed amongst everything else I posted, since nobody has proferred an answer.

Anyone have any thoughts on what Cook was trying to signal with the naked unvote on Margot at 290?

[Val89]

i liked margot's post previous to that.

Yes, that part is obvious.

I have my theory as to what part in particular you liked about it, but I am worrying I am confbiasing, which is why I am eliciting other opinions.

[Val89]

It's E-1, not hammer just yet.

I'll buckle my seatbelt and strap in for the lesson on how Cook intends to play out of her fake claiming playbook when she has already published said playbook to the world, and announce

intent to hammer.

[Val89]

Also just hammer Val. Cook is here and is clear she doesn’t have anything of substance.

Understand the sentiment, really I do, but I've seen that go wrong before.

I won't let her just stall us all night, but she gets a reasonable chance to make a claim at E-1, if that is what she is going to do.

[Val89]

This is such a clearly blatantly and obviously scummy post, and to imagine it coming as a response to the first bit of concerted pressure the slot has received this game, I'm honestly even more convinced that Spangled is Town

While we wait, would you might explaining this?

Honestly, you lost me, and who knows who will be around to ask or answer such questions tomorrow, given it looks like out illustrious mod is on high alert to lock the thread the second the hammer comes down.

[Val89]

I don't know what to make of that unvote, really.

Cook is obviously trying to stall a bit here, perhaps she is trying to have a discussion with her scumbuddy before deciding how to play this, and that sort of thing only helps her.

I'm tempted to put my own vote back on Cook, but frankly, I think I only really trust myself with the hammer right now.

[Val89]

I just don't think any newb gets that emotionally upset, in that specific way, if they are Scum.

OK, I buy that, but notice how with that emotional post, Spangled has managed to turn this in a discussion about mine, or his, tone? If it WAS scummy, I imagine that was the intent. Do you have any comments to make about the actual substance of the arguement?

Don't forget, whatever you might think about how a Town noob verus a Scum noob might act, that noob might very well be receiving some coaching behind the scenes.

[Val89]

"Shit, I think I've fucked up by doubling down trying to explain that strong townread on Facebones by saying he was prodding and probing, and mindmelded with me. I forgot the ISO was only 3 posts when I gave the read, and Vals pointed it out".
"Well, don't panic yet, just try make it about HOW he said it, not what he said."

I think we ought give noobs a bit of credit.
It seems to have worked because we are discussing his "emotions" and if that can be faked rather than looking at the actual evidence.

[Val89]

I am really going to have to see your flip, Cook, before I can decide if you are really taking the piss here or not.

VOTE: Cook

This vote is E-1. Next vote from someone other than: DAbry, Galron, Thynhith or myself will hammer.

[Val89]

Yes, I certainly have some thoughts.

What is the modification? Thats the simple question I have been asking along. What changed between how she outlined it in 2075, and how she outlined it here?

[Val89]

One of us is GROSSLY misunderstanding the other here. She lays out what she's going to do on d1 d2 d3, just like she does to town in 2075, and in this game.

The only difference is when she is explaining it to town, she tells them its town sided (it isn't). When she lays it out in scum chat, she explains what scum are going to do (either fake claim PRs, or just shoot the ones who are induced in to claiming too early) if town go along with it.

She DOES THE SAME THING IN THIS GAME. Yes, we can't see if she is posting this playbook in scumchat in this game, but there should be a modification to the bit she tells TOWN, in the normal game thread, and to my mind there isn't.

I even asked her direct, and this is what she said:

one crucial detail that differences that game and this one

i have a green role pm

[Val89]

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

Day One, I'm going to ask the Tracker to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
Reasoning: If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
As no Tracker exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
Day Two, I'm going to ask for a Cop to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's no protectives if Cop claims and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
If no Cop claims then you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player. If a Jailkeeper pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If Masons claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

back now.

Cook's Handy, Dandy Plan

1. Tracker claims Day One. If nobody claims Tracker we just eliminated three setups (A2, B1, and B3).
   Protectives go on the Tracker claim. This will mean that the Tracker is jailkept in A2 and protected in B3.
   
   Tracker reports result D2. If Tracker claims blocked then we know we're in A2 and play the Tracker as an IC. If scum tries to ride the towncred then they're functionally down a player.
   If Tracker claims a result we just go Follow The Cop from here since Mafia only gets a rolecop.
   
2. If no Tracker claims then we have a normal D1 with a normal D1 elimination.
   
3. D2, Cop claims with result. Scum killing either the cop or their clear will result in the other one being IC'd the next day, therefore they must shoot elsewhere.
   
   If Masons exist then one Mason claims Cop with a clear on their partner, since either one dying proves the other one.
   
   If Scum tries to do this with partners then we'll end up 1-for-1'ing cop claims and we'll invariably win.
   
4. If you get an FN message, claim it but not who sent it. If you or the FN are run up to E-1 you may claim the message. We will preserve the FN from elimination for one night to let them send another message, if someone reports it the next day the FN is cleared. Jailkeeper, if there's a claimed FN don't prot them for one night, let them get a message – if scum kills them that leaves us rolecop vs jailkeeper, which we can win. This is our worst possible configuration.
   
5. Prots don't claim unless you're at E-1 or you need to counterclaim.

Again, what is the difference between these two pictures? Cook herself says the difference is this time she has a green role pm, and we just have to take that on faith. I say they are exactly the same.

[Val89]

And what difference does that make?

Let me put it this way. If Cook was town, and you and me were the scum team, what stops us from following the instructions Cook laid out to WhemeStar in the previous game, if the rest of town had been useufl idiots and brought it from her when she starting selling it early on?

Cook isn't going to be posting it in our scumthread, but she doesn't need to, because we can just read it from the 2075 scum PT. Or is she banking her entire factions chance of sucess of us being too dense to go back and read that previous game?

[Val89]

The fact we don't have a tracker claim as a pretty obvious start

There was no tracker claim in 2075 either....

[Val89]

You're assuming that Cook thinks, from the outset, that people are going through her old games to find her new strategies, and also assuming that Cook isn't working under the assumption that noone else is going to come up with the cool new strategy she's come up with

So in other words, yes.

In your head, the only that stops our theortical scumteam from taking advantage of a town who a town!Cook manages to persaude to buy in to this new fangled strategy is that we don't read her previous game and read step by step how we can take advantange of it as scum AND we don't figure it out for ourselves.

And town!Cook acutally truely beleives its +town, but is wrong. Despite having being able to work out that step-by-step fakeclaiming playbook. But its still not good for scum.

Have I got that right?

[Val89]

a) It's not a good strategy for a scum team to do, because it requires so much AI activity from Scum to push, so Scum going back and employing it is not good

My argument is that is exactly what we are seeing.

THIS is a quote from THIS game:

back now.

Cook's Handy, Dandy Plan

1. Tracker claims Day One. If nobody claims Tracker we just eliminated three setups (A2, B1, and B3).
   Protectives go on the Tracker claim. This will mean that the Tracker is jailkept in A2 and protected in B3.
   
   Tracker reports result D2. If Tracker claims blocked then we know we're in A2 and play the Tracker as an IC. If scum tries to ride the towncred then they're functionally down a player.
   If Tracker claims a result we just go Follow The Cop from here since Mafia only gets a rolecop.
   
2. If no Tracker claims then we have a normal D1 with a normal D1 elimination.
   
3. D2, Cop claims with result. Scum killing either the cop or their clear will result in the other one being IC'd the next day, therefore they must shoot elsewhere.
   
   If Masons exist then one Mason claims Cop with a clear on their partner, since either one dying proves the other one.
   
   If Scum tries to do this with partners then we'll end up 1-for-1'ing cop claims and we'll invariably win.
   
4. If you get an FN message, claim it but not who sent it. If you or the FN are run up to E-1 you may claim the message. We will preserve the FN from elimination for one night to let them send another message, if someone reports it the next day the FN is cleared. Jailkeeper, if there's a claimed FN don't prot them for one night, let them get a message – if scum kills them that leaves us rolecop vs jailkeeper, which we can win. This is our worst possible configuration.
   
5. Prots don't claim unless you're at E-1 or you need to counterclaim.

Is that, or is that not, the strategy from the scum thead in 2075 minus the "psst, we will fakeclaim X at this point" scum instructions?

[Val89]

DArby, (and everyone else for that matter) I would suggest until we establish whether or not Margot has just had a legimate total-180 on a wagon that she herself describe as "obvious" less than 3 hours ago, I would not take anything she says about the operation of Cooks 'strategy' at face value.

Don't take my word for it either. Read it yourself. Here it is again:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

• Day One, I'm going to ask the
  Tracker
  to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
  
  Reasoning:
  If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
  As no
  Tracker
  exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
  
• Day Two, I'm going to ask for a
  Cop
  to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's
  no protectives if Cop claims
  and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
  
• If no
  Cop
  claims then
  you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player
  . If a
  Jailkeeper
  pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If
  Masons
  claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
  
• What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

This is the claim Margot just made:

If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

Decide for yourself if that is correct. Then decide if anyone who makes that claim can be trusted on these matters.

The final decision that needs to made, if you have decided that claim doesn't hold, is if Margot is simply mistaken, and is being accidently usefull to scum, or if there is something else behind it. My jury is still out on that last one, but I've made my mind on the first two.

[Val89]

If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

By post 9 in Scum PT, she seems to have landed on the Tracker claim strat as the way to go. Admittedly, one of three, but that is the one she seems to have landed upon

There was no tracker claim in 2075, and there would be no legit tracker claim in 2075, because scum knew they were in column C from the get-go. Do you know something about the setup in this game I don't?

Are you ignoring 408 accidentally, or intentionally Val?

Intentionally. I'm deciding if I am engaging in a good-faith discussion here or not.

I am wondering who is benefiting from the your attempt to refocus your unilateral decision to suddenly ease the presure on a slot that basically everyone, including yourself at that point, thought was scummy; and then attempt to reframe my decision to continue that preasure as 'bizarre'.

Who benefits from leaving the Cook question unresolved? I think it can only be scum, frankly.

[Val89]

Anyone else get the impression Cook is basically just laughing at our expense at this point?

[Val89]

Why not just self-hammer then instead of trying to fill the thread with WIFOM?

I'm not going to decide I'm actually not going to take a good hard look at if I was totally wrong about you and Margot not being scum theatre just because you call us TvT at this point. But you already know that, I am sure.

[Val89]

Intent.

You are a funny guy. Truely you are.

[Val89]

no, do it yourself, coward

It can't have escaped your attention but I am already voting you, else I would. Beleive me, I would.

There is no way you don't know who can hammer you right now, and who can't, which is why I said what I did to Galron.

[Val89]

Actually, I might owe some people an apology; and by people, I mean Galron.

I might have miscounted myself.

[Val89]

@spangled No. We're being forced to watch performance art which no-one bought tickets to

Remind me to put this in my signature if it turns out Margot is Cooks scumbuddy after we are all said and done, will you?

[Val89]

Get them out quick then, before the mod comes and locks the thread.

[Val89]

In case I'm not in a position to say anything tomorrow, does any one need an explanation as to why I'm going to be spending the night evaluating my reads on Spangled and Margot, or is obvious enough to everyone else?

[Val89]

What a weird thing to say.

If you look at how my newbie games usually end for me, it might make more sense.

[Val89]

Personally, I think the person who tried to stop the wagon with some weird I-don't-know-what arguments, shaded the person who still tried to get at least a claim out of it, and then 180d again the second it became obvious they were drawing attention to their own slot by doing so might be worth at least a little second look, but that's just me.

[Val89]

Regardless of what I think of that, that right there is a tune.

[Val89]

I would argue that being first on wagon means very little if you then attempt to derail it when it takes off.

This is all conditional on a red flip of course, but I think it's obvious that is what we are about to see.

[Val89]

Val’s still alive because scum killed Galron for crumbing.

Amen. Galrons last words were, refering to me, were "Maybe you'll be protected tonight, if that's where you're going."

I am inclinded to treat with suspicion anyone who is advancing theories as to why Galron was selected as the NK without acknoledging that, given what was said in twilight, scum would be forced to consider the possibility they wouldn't be able to take a shot a me without going through Galron first. It looks he basically threw himself in the path of the bullet like a secret service agent, and I am asking myself why some slots are speculating on Galrons reads, etc, and are pretending they didn't see that he was crumbing pretty hard.

Also I think it'd be weird to hide behind a kill from an argument off of one slot with one post saying it's TvT.

Not entirely true, Cook was calling them both town leans, and I don't remember anyone disagreeing with either of us.

It goes further than that - not only did he call us both townleans, but he explicitly called us TvT just prior to hammer (425). At the time, it pissed me off a bit because I was expecting a red flip and I thought she was mixing the wines right in front of us. Having seen I was wrong, I don't have much choice but to reconsider Margot. The fact of the matter is that I have more than one game where other multiple other slots have been telling me the tunnel I am in is TvT, and they have been right, even ones where I would have bet my kids I was dealing with scum.

As such, I think I ought put some stock in what a now-proven town SE, even one who ran a game like this one did, has to say on a spat I am having with another slot, if they declare it to be TvT. That said, I still have my suspicions about how the wagon turned yesterday - yes, it ulitmately proved to be a mislim wagon; yes, Margot was proved 'right' in that sense - but reading it back, I can't help but feel it was odd.

It was a 10 day phase. We had spent over 7 of them getting Cook into hammer-range; while there were still such a lack of content from some slots as to have multiple null reads in the lists that had been posted, Margot had apparently herself only managed to read in detail the first 5 pages in those days, and she thought this: "UNVOTE: , as we've actually got 3 days, and not the almost EoD I was led to believe it was". She thought, after we had only managed to get where we had after 7 days, that the less than 72-hours remaining was sufficent to litigate the Cook issue further without a claim and rally around another lim when (and this is the kicker to my eyes) she was openly standing in the way of the only other really viable wagon as well. I can't help that think, even though we did evenutally mislim a townie, that a scum!Margot would have been

overjoyed

to see that one turned around, have us then rush into a quick, low info mislim elsewhere, and for us to be spending today still discussing what the hell we do with Cook.

In short, I'm not quite ready to take my turn under that palanquin just yet.

[Val89]

The other issue I have, and this is something I need to get my head around before I can consider joining the Facebones voters, is the unresolved problems I have with Spangleds FB read.

Spangled did a good job by the end of yesterday of almost apologising his way out of his scumread with me (what shall we call that? The Canadian defense?). We have spent some time discussing what his reaction to that part of my read does or does not say about his alignment, but nobody, apart from the possible exception of Facebones himself at 255, has had anything to say on the actual issue I have with it.

I say that Spangled could not have reasonably given the read he does at 142, based on everything that FB had said until then, which was 103,109, and 111. Spangles response to that (and putting aside the way he put it for the moment), was that he says actually that he does consider it sufficient to make a strong read on, and I'm simply taking issue with the fact we have different reads.

I'm so far in the camp that it isn't enough to justify that read that I consider that response suspicious in itself, but I acknowledge that other people do look for different things, and have different thresholds, when making their reads. As such, I would feel happier if other players could at least give some indication as to where they fall on that scale.

It is important because I think that a scum!Spangled was TMIing Facebones as town there, rather than TRing his buddy, so I wouldn't support a Facebones wagon unless and until I saw a Spangled flip - I don't think I get any information from the other way around. If, one the other hand, I can be convinced that I might be wrong on this issue, and that TR was in the reasonable range of responses to that ISO, then the possibility of a town!Spangled changes that calculus.

[Val89]

but he explicitly called us TvT just prior to hammer

She*. I mean Cook called Myself and Margot TvT at 425.

I need to get into the habit of proof reading these posts more carefully.

[Val89]

You're saying you wouldn't get any information if FB flipped first, but why is that? If he flipped green that would exonerate spangled's "dodgy" read

Except that it wouldn't, that's my whole point. The 'dodigness' of the read isn't that it's a townread, its the fact it was such a strong townread given at the time it was. I am speculating that Spangled was able to say "yeah, FB is really towny" at the point he did because he knows for a fact that FB is town. If Facebones flips town today, how does that help me? I would have to assume I am right about that, and still push Spangled. If he flips Red, I would still be thinking "hmmm...OK, what's going on with that read by Spangled then?". I would still be pushing Spangled regardless of Facebones flip.

If on the other hand, Spangled were to flip green, I would say "Oh, ok, so the read on Facebones wasn't predicated on him knowing something we didn't, so I can consider the fact that Spangled was just straight up wrong, and look at Facebones independantly."; if Spangled flipped red, I would be saying to myself "Right, that makes Facebones likley town then", and look elsewhere. I get something from a Spangled flip, whereas I don't think a Facebones flip would affect how I look at Spangled because either flip could still point to a scum!Spangled.

For what it's worth, at the time Spangled townread FB, he was null for me. I believe I said as much. Since, I'd consider him a scumlean

I think this demonstrates the misunderstanding we are having. I'm not actually interested if everyone elses reads on Facebones match Spangled.

Put it this way. Imagine you are in the outside looking in, and I give you this iso:

Spoiler: The ISO

Sorry for my absence, I was either sleeping or working. On my lunch break now, but before I go back some food for thought: not reading a players post due to apathy seems worse than not reading it due to laziness. Galron, is it just Cook's posts you're apathetic towards? Why?

I'm not apathetic toward Cook's posts. I just don't feel like reading them. I guess maybe that is apathy; I don't know. Everyone else's posts are much shorter. That's got something to do with it. Cook could be open-wolfing (I have a personal bias against that term btw), but I don't know.

It seems that if anyone is wolfing (there's that term again) it up again,

I

, and everyone else, would be alerted to it. In a succinct manner ofc.

Unless that person is Cook, because how can you be alert to an open wolf if you don't feel like reading their lengthy posts? Start being more motivated, goddamn it.

hey, Facebones, you reckon DArby’s whiteknighting me a wee bit?

I mean, I guess there's a chance. I have accused people of whiteknighting in the past and been rather embarrassed about the whole ordeal afterwards though. Due to that, and because it's still early stages, I'm gonna put it down to being NAI

How come you're anxious to hear about what Thynhith makes of my entrance? Like, why him specifically?

Can you give a read on that player? If you can, how confident can you possibly be about that read?

I'm not intrested in what that read is; I just want to know if people consider giving a strong read on that basis is inside the range of reasonable responses to that ISO, without having additional pre-known information about the alignment of that player. I've given my view - that is isn't possible to give a confident read on that basis. Spangled has defended that read at 323 and avers that it is. If

other

players now tell me, "Yeah, Val, I can see why Spangled could reasonably hold that read, even if I or you don't agree with it", then I would be happier supporting a Facebones wagon, but currently I think a scum!Spangled means Facebones is much more likley to be town, lack of content aside.

[Val89]

Despite Cook having them as town leans you were the only one to explicitly say this was TvT

I've already pointed out that this isn't true.

I was blinded by hearing multiple people say it that it didn't cross my mind how they were saying it.

I am confused. What is the "it", here?

[Val89]

557. I mistyped, which may have confused, but I corrected at 559.

[Val89]

No, I'm sorry, I'm still not following what you were trying to say in 569.

Thynhith was on thin ice as a placeholder of who could also make that mistake as scum!FB's partner.

'That mistake' being what? Are we still talking about the Galron kill here, and you consider it a mistake?

I was blinded by hearing multiple people say [Galron was NK'd for crumbing] that it didn't cross my mind how they were saying it.

Which people? Blinded in what sense?

[Val89]

If they’re scumbuddies the strong read makes sense. This is the only other strong play I can think of Spangled this game. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if they were both scum both of these plays [saying Galron died from crumbing and his FB read] make a lot more sense.

I agree that the FB read makes more sense from a scum!Spangled, but I don't think it makes it more likely they are scumbuddies. On the contrary, I don't think a scum!Spangled reads a scum!Facebones in such terms. We don't know for sure how a scum!Spangled plays around his scumbuddy, but I think even the most green of mafia players is going to realise saying "Yep, this guy is top tier town" about his scum partner on the basis of 3 posts, while also holding a null read on another slot while saying "what can you expect for 6 posts" is going to attract attention come post-flip when we all start scouring over the ISO for associatives.

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but I think its a much more likely scenario that a scum!Spangled, who knows exactly who the scum team is, and therefore knows from game open everyone else is town, also knows that they have to townread

some

players else it'll be suspicious, just townread Facebones without thinking about if the level of read matched the info available to everyone else. scum!Spangled knows Facebones is town, so yep, Facebones gets a town read, I'll push some of the other slots instead. I think that minor slip is more likely than scum!Spangled just straight up telling us who his scum partner is.

On the matter of saying Galron died from crumbing - frankly, I am of that opinion too. I think that is the truth of the matter. I'm still scumreading Spangled overall, but the fact that Spangled came to a strong conclusion on the matter gets a big NIA from me. Scum knows why he was targeted for definite of course, but I also think that he was killed because of his fake-crumbs, if you want to call it that. His final words were the first thing I thought of on seeing the kill.

[Val89]

I can see where spangled is coming from, in that he had a strong first impression of FB, within the bounds of reasonable play style

That's more what I was looking for. You didn't agree with the read (you said "Eh idk why it's that important but alright. Feels fairly natural to me, though FB has been lurking a bit yesterday and today. Can't read anything with only three posts") but you do think it was open to him to make that conclusion, and it's a play style thing. Noted.

galron I'm not sure how you came to that read after only 5 posts, can you explain your thinking? you mentioned you were a "town hunter" before

@Thynhith

: Can I ask why Galrons early read here on the basis of 5 posts pinged you enough to ask him to explain it twice (second time at 177)?

[Val89]

I'm just not a big fan of D1's, there's no information to go off. Apologies for my lurky play, but for me it's easier to class people as either town or scum from their interactions with other players and seeing which ones I think are legitimate.

What conclusions have you come to, having watched from a distance?

[Val89]

It seemed like DArby was very keen to secure the elimination of Cook.
I thought I'd give people an update on where everyone was at in regards to Cook's setup-breaking idea, and DArby took that information and essentially said "case closed, done and done" when I was expecting a bit more of a debate or exchanging of ideas?

Why did you not say what you were feeling about this at the time?

Do you not have any thoughts on the other slots?

[Val89]

Because it was crazy late at night when I made that post. I slept afterwards and worked all weekend. The next time I logged in everyone seemed to have accepted it and moved on.

Which post are we talking about here? 157?

Apologies for my lurky play, but for me it's easier to class people as either town or scum from their interactions with other players and seeing which ones I think are legitimate. It might be stupid or whatever, but I feel if I interrupt these people's interactions it'll interfere with the flow and I won't be able to get a clear a read on them as what I could.

I'll keep you updated on the others when I've had another read through or 3

The reason why I asked you what conclusions you had come to from watching from a distance was because, if it fact what you said about why you had been inactive was true, I was kind of expecting you to have some thoughts already but you just hadn't shared to avoid 'interfering'.

Can we have the rough drafts now, so its possible to attempt to evaluate the truth of that statement?

[Val89]

I don't like the Facebones votes. I can town case him later tonight if no one sees the town posts that have pinged me

I wonder if you have had a chance to read the last couple of posts we have had from Facebones? He was sat at null for me coming into today, and I did share concerns he might just be the low-hanging fruit, but his responses in the last few hours have brought him a bit south of null for me.

That being the case, I think we ought to hear that town case once you are awake and ready to give it.

[Val89]

I don't see how anyone can actively justify FB without a PR claim.

What does this mean? "Justify" as in still read Facebones town?

[Val89]

Spangled, could you tell us how your reads on Margot and Darby have evolved since yesterday?

[Val89]

But I hate that it would be the second of two eliminations

Was this the complete thought, or was there a word missing here? I'm struggling to understand what you wanted to say here.

I understand you don't want the day to end too quickly, but you are voting Facebones and said earlier you were "veeery confident that we've caught one." It wouldn't

be

a policy lim if that's the case, no?

[Val89]

Understood.

For what it is worth, I think Facebones is looking fairly scummy following his response to questioning today.

In normal circumstances, I would be voting there after that, but I still can't shake the feeling that Spangled was TMIing FB as town D1. Thyn tells me he considers Spangles' read to be legitimate, and it's a playstyle thing, but I found that a little unsatisfying given I noticed he took issue at Galron giving a town read on Roden when Rodens' ISO at the time was more comprehensive than FBs.

We are waiting to hear from Roden; I'll see if Spangle's answers can help me resolve the problem I am having, and I think we need to hear a little more from Thyn as to where he stands on issue of Facebones, because I am still struggling to move past a null read there - I've read through the ISO again tonight and still nothing is jumping out in either direction.

[Val89]

That's a really weird thing to say about this kind of a deep dive.

Maybe it's a waste of time, but that seems way more misguided than it does scummy.

I think you are both missing the main point here, which is that Facebones didn't do this independently, which, if he had, I think this point would be valid. The fact of the matter is - I specifically invited him (and everyone else) to do precisely this work, and provided the links to the posts in 216.

Facebones said, in his very first scum game, the following. It doesn't appear that I can quote it directly because the thread is locked, but here is the link to it.

Spoiler: Facebones opinions as given in his first game

3. Look out for contradictions, deliberately misusing peoples quotes out of context in order to fit their own agenda and lurking/deliberately staying out of the thread to avoid questions/trying to slip under the radar.
4. Look for people who have their own reads and back it up with proof instead of just blindly hopping on the bandwagon because everyone else is. The more activity to go off, the better. Being too verbose could have an adverse effect too I guess. I dunno, it's a tough one
5. I can't lie worth a ****. I always inevitably get called out on it and I'm not the best at thinking on my feet, so I figure it's not worth the hassle.

The questions, for reference, were:

3. In your opinion, what are some of the top things to look for when scumhunting?
4. When townhunting?
5. Is it easy or difficult for you to lie?

Of course, I think that speaks quite strongly to his "I prefer to sit back and look for the interactions of others" thing being an excuse, given that he has previously indicated he thinks lurking and staying out of thread when being questioned is a scummy thing to do, and something he would look for as a scumtell in others. The question becomes 'why would he do something as scum he knows others are going to find scummy, then?' and I think his answer to 5 tells us that.

He recognises he isn't the best at lying. Coming up with reads and whatnot that aren't legit might well be something he will try and avoid doing, and doing the homework I set probably looked like an easy way to pick up some towncred - particularly with me - without having to do what he says he is no good at doing. It's no lie, he knows Cook is actually town, so he is expecting to find something.

In that context, I'm not about to be giving him much credit for doing so, and I think anyone who is tempted to do just that needs to remember this was a directed meta search, not an independently driven one.

[Val89]

Any reason you decided to avoid putting in Q1 - "1. What is your overall mafia experience? Not just on this site." and my answer - "I have little/no mafia experience. I witnessed my housemate play a game on a different site once, but that's the extent as to how far my knowledge goes."?

Yeah - that fact that I said it was your first game twice in my post already; and directly linked the entire post and then quoted the relevant parts from it.

I note that I said "very first scum game", and that was a mistake, you were town, so appologies for that.

[Val89]

So you are basing this on the opinions a first time player has about how someone might read their own meta, purely hypothetically, and before ever having actually played as scum to have the experience of knowing what that meta even is???

Did you read the quote? He was asked what he would look for while scumhunting, not anything to with how any one would read is own hypothetical meta, or whatever bullshit that is you are trying to sell.

Imagine criticising someone for going into an unrelated thread and giving a read you have decided is useless

Wrong. I am criticising

you

for having given Facebones a whole bunch of towncred for doing so, saying that you don't think scum would go to the time and effort, without acknoledgeing that he was directed to do so by another slot and handed the links to the posts.

I thought initially that might have just slipped you by, but based on this reaction, I wonder if it fact it was deliberate.

[Val89]

But this revelation came about well after FB would have checked that thread, because the differences stuck in his mind. Aka, he actually took note of them rather than merely collected things for use as scum

What evidence do you have that could let you come to that conclusion?

[Val89]

The differences FB mentions having thought of in 260 were first referenced an hour earlier in 253

And both 260 and 253 are AFTER 216.

I don't think there is any way you can speak to when Facebones checked the thread, or his state of mind when doing so. The fact that the second I ask you to justify doing so, you say something completely non-sensical and then immediately try and shade my motives for doing so is noted.

[Val89]

I am not pushing the slot for doing what I told them to do. I brought this up because it seems like he was getting towncred from you and Roden for doing so

as if he had done so independently, off his own back

.

I figured, if you were simply looking at Facebones ISO, which is plausible, since it was Facebones that was under consideration, you might have simply missed the fact he was directed to do so, and handed the links, to make sure you had figured that into your thinking.

We haven't heard from Roden whether or not he did notice that and take it into account, but your response, to tell us you know exactly when Facebones checked the thread, and what his motivation was when he did it, has pinged me in a big way.

Combine that with the fact you were voting Facebones while somehow knowing what he was thinking there, but you neglected to bring it up until Roden did, then try and tell us that the unvote was some sort of unspecified signal to

[Val89]

(this is what I get for trying to compose a reply on my phone)

... Continued:

... Unspecified signal to an unspecified slot isn't sitting right with me at all.

It fact, it feels pretty similar to what happened with the Cook wagon yesterday. Cook was town, correct, but your reasons for having a sudden change of heart there make as much sense to me as your arguments here (ie: none at all), and, I'll be happy to be corrected if I am wrong about this, but I doubt they, or these, make or made any sense to anyone else, either.

I am wondering if we are looking in the wrong place with Facebones. You've been making a big thing about not wanting a Spangled wagon without much justification. The reason I was holding off voting Facebones was because I wanted to hear from Spangled given the possible associative there. I still do want to hear from Spangled before voting, but I think I'm also going to have a good long look at the possibility we are being played in the same as with Cook before committing to a Facebones lim today, as scummy as that slot is right now.

[Val89]

Either you have a tunnel problem, in which you're first gut read is the only one that sticks in your mind, or you're scum intentionally trying to sound persuasive while you lim Town without listening to anyone who disagrees with your reads? Which is it?

I am trying to decide what advantage we gain from either you proposing, or me engaging with, such an obvious false dichotomy, and I am afraid I can't see one.

ANd I didn't "know" anything before Roden brought it up, after which point I read back through the posts

Fine. I'm asking you to justify this, because it looks to all the world like you are suggesting you can somehow read Facebones mind, and know for a fact what his intentions were when he did so.

But this revelation came about well after FB would have checked that thread, because the differences stuck in his mind. Aka, he actually took note of them rather than merely collected things for use as scum

I asked you what evidence you had for that, you said:

The differences FB mentions having thought of in 260 were first referenced an hour earlier in 253

...which is clearly no answer, since I prompted the dive, and gave the links, in 216; which was earlier than even 253.

Have you some actual evidence that allows you to conclude that Facebones did the dive before I proposed doing so and provided instructions and links for doing so in 216, and that his motivation for doing so was not scum motivated; or, in the alternative, can you explain what town justifciation you had for pulling 651 out of your butt, as appears to be the case at present?

[Val89]

See, the thing is I expected a couple of reactions to me pointing out that Facebones was being awarded towncred on the basis that "My point is that it's a lot of research to conduct to come to the conclusion that Cook is probably Town" without acknowledging that most of the work had already been done, and the challenge set, in 216.

One of those responses might have been "Yeah, I was already aware of that, I just didn't mention it, or consider it relevant because.... X"' or "No, I was look specifically at Facebones ISO and didn't account for that. Now you have pointed it out, I still consider the fact he did so as worth town points because....", or "No, I didn't notice that, Val, perhaps I'll reconsider that point."

Any of those would had have reassured me we were engaging in a good faith discussion and working towards properly solving the question of Facebones' alignment.

What I wasn't expecting was your reaction, whatever that was. You can't see why I am shaking my head and wondering what the hell is motiviating all this?

[Val89]

I'm not engaging in the back and forth anymore. It's ridiculous, and looks bad.

I don't understand this attitude. Looks bad for whom? Frankly, if you think I am scum, and I am revealing myself as such through these interactions, then that's a positive for town and you would want them to continue, no?

I've been in a simular situation before, and as then, I get the impression the approach you are taking is less "I think Val is scum" and more "Val, you better drop this or else I might just start pushing you"; and I think you would have good cause to call me scum if, in fact, I allowed that sort of thing to disuasade me. By the way, want to hazzard a guess as to the alignment of the slot that made that implict threat?

Today, I feel as though the information Roden dug up is genuinely worth considering, and don't want to let you run off with another Town elimination today the way you did yesterday.

Either you have a tunnel problem, in which you're first gut read is the only one that sticks in your mind, or you're scum intentionally trying to sound persuasive while you lim Town without listening to anyone who disagrees with your reads? Which is it?

I'm dropping this conversation, because I don't know that there's much worth saying to someone who, again, pushed hard on a wagon that led to a Town elimination, even after others tried to point out that the reasoning was faulty

That's twice now in the last 3 posts you've tried to shade me based on yesterdays wagon. I think you are grossly overstating my ability to "lim Town without listening to anyone who disagrees with [my] reads". I don't have any extra voting power, here. Yes, pre-flip, I was happy with a D1 Cook lim, and advocated for such, but the lim happened because a majority of players voted for it, including yourself. I also still happen to think the Cook flip was good for town, even if it was a mis-lim. Cook did something that was regarded by many, not only myself, as being pretty darn scummy. There was always going to huge question mark over that slot, and I am happy to get that resolved early while there is a chance to recover. Can you imagine reaching a MYLO situation with Cook in it?

The situation is erriely similar to the opening of 2073; where I, pretty much me alone, pushed what I considered the scummiest slot (T3) until he did something that was widely regarded as scummy by everyone else as well (he faked claimed Mason before hammer range, if you can beleive that); and was quickly limmed. D2, I took flack for having pushed T3 "based on a flimsy case and basically rides it, tunneling him until T3 gets mislimed". Again, want to hazzard a guess at the alignment of the slot making that charge?

On the subject of the content of the actual disagreement we were having, I think I understand better what you were trying to say with 651 now. I don't know if you had spotted, and accounted for the fact the FB dive was prompted when you said you could "get behind" the point he did so might be town indicative, but it appears we are in the world where you have considered it now, and decided it doesn't change your view, because I linked post 76, and he must have read as far as 140. I may disagree, but having explained that, that at least appears to be a reasonable basis for holding a differing view.

I am not, however, going to appologise for pushing for you to explain those reasons in manner that I could understand, because it initially looked to me like you were making it up as you went along, and if that was true, that would have clearly given us some indication as to your alignment.

[Val89]

I am a little less concerned about the choice of word and more the fact that the story as to why he has been lurking has changed from 'I have enough experience now that my play style has changed from game I played last year that Val quoted, and my new style is to prefer to sit back and deduce from the interactions without interfering with them' to 'I am inexperienced, and everytime I say something I get suspicion directed towards me, so I would rather stay quiet'.

I'm not convinced by the arguments presented as to why Facebones deserves a townread. I think the slot is, taken in isolation, pretty damn scummy. I have had, and maintain, reservations about the wagon based not on that he seems town, but rather that he might have been TMId as town by a slot I found scummy D1. I am waiting for Spangled, and I personally think figuring out Spangled alignment is going to be key to unlocking this whole game.

I have to register concern at the fact that a wagon seems to be forming around Thyn in particular. Some people have reservations about the Facebones wagon, fair enough. There isn't a lot of work with, and time is ticking towards a deadline in a game that appears to be stalling out. Am I really being asked to support the idea we now spend that remaining time we have focusing on the other slot with have

even less

to work with, that most people are reading null and those that do have a scumread on have given little to no justification for, and are, at least to me, the scummy slots themselves? That smells like a recipe for a rushed, low-info lim that might well turn out to be a mislim.

Correct me if I am wrong, but by my calculation, if both scum are still alive tomorrow, we could be in a mis-lim and lose scenario if we get this wrong today. I'm not comfortable with liming what is basically a null slot on that basis, particularly when it is being pushed by slots I find scummy. I want to hear from Spangled. What I hear might change my opinion, but as of now I would rather do Spangled over Facebones; but I don't think you will convince me to vote Thyn over Facebones unless the alternative is a no-lim and we are right up against the deadline.

[Val89]

Just to be clear, what is the no-no word?

This one.

Val, why do you seem unwilling to believe in the possibility of multiple reasons existing?

Occam's razor, basically. Yes, there could be an innocent reason you could have given us only half an answer the first time, but it looks like you gave an answer (one that I would have probably bought, by the way, if you had come up with some well-justified reads when asked at that point) and then modifed it when it was clear you had, or at least what you've shared, is rather shallow and doesn't really stack up with the 'outside observer' explaination.

I think I've been pretty clear that, despite the things that have pinged me, I do have the possibility that you are still town, and are being TMId as town, in the back of my mind, and I'm waiting to hear from other slots in order to try and sort that out.

My point is this: I'm not yet 100 percent happy with your wagon, which is why I'm not voting just yet, and I would feel much happier if we had more time and everyone was here and contributing, but in the absence of that, I am happier with a wagon on a slot that was basically null d1, then made some posts I consider fairly scummy, then a wagon on someone who was also basically null d1, but hasn't done anything to ping me, perhaps edged into a slight townlean, on D2.

[Val89]

Val, I'm rather curious as to what your read list looks like.
You think Spangled and myself are the scummiest, right?
Where is Margot on this list?

Correct. In isolation, I think you and Spangled are tied for scummiest - Spangled being scummiest D1, and giving us basically nothing to work with today apart from the fact he seemed to have a decent insight (in the sense that I agree with his conclusions) on why Galron was killed, but basically MIA otherwise; it may well be NAI IRL activity issue, but the longer it goes on, the more it worries me; and you (Facebones), who I think gave us little to work with on D1, but have pinged me as scummy with your posting today.

Margot, and particularly since 646 onwards, isn't all that far behind, though. I think there is an associative between you and Spangled, which I have already explained; and if there is another associative staring us in the face, I think it's between Spangled and Margot, who Townlocked Spangled on what appeared to me as the flimsiest of justifications, and then said she was more convinced about Spangled being town after what she concedes is a "clearly blatantly and obviously scummy post" (342[/post); and today told us she wouldn't consider a Spangled wagon while telling us explicitly she had no intention of justifying that beyond him being a solid town read ([post]609). After all that, she then purports to forget he even exists. That didn't seem all that genuine.

Looking back at her progression Facebones, and things don't sit quite right either. Her 680 seems to suggest that she only really had a shallow scumread on you, but went hard on it because that's what she does when the game is dead in order to see it it will stick, but then the 3rd part, and only that part, of Rodens town case was sufficient to convince her to abandon that read. In other words, she had given Facebones a fair amount of towncred - enough to move from a scumlean, even one she now tells us was only shallow, to a townread on the basis of what Roden had said about him taking time and effort to look at the previous time Cook proposed her strategy, and to get off the Facebones wagon.

DArby disagrees with the point Roden made, as do I but for a different reason. I thought there is something that all 3 of them have missed, which I have discussed in a fair amount of detail now already. I don't think they have missed it deliberately because it's something that could easily be missed if looking at the ISO out of context. I point it out, and Margot has some sort of weird emotional reaction to that. I would read that reaction again (647 and 648). Remember, she was apparently holding the same read both myself and DArby (and apparently Thyn, as of 634) not all that long prior to Roden giving his take, although she claims to have overstated the degree to which she was holding it, but now that read is "objectively useless", and so blatantly bad she is on the cusp of going from town reading us both to scumreading us on the back of it? She then, one post later, tells us that actually, she isn't giving Facebones heaps of towncred (??) and actually her unvote on Facebones was supposed to be some sort of magic bat signal to some other slot, and doesn't really indicate what she thinks of his alignment.

I really can't help but shake the impression that there is something strange going on between the three of those slots (Spangled, Margot and Facebones). I'm not sure if Thyn and myself have become the subjects of a chainsaw defense by Margot in respect to Facebones; and that's our scumteam; or if both Spangled and now Margot have TMI'd Facebones as town, despite the obvious scumminess, in the same vein as Cook being scummy AF while flipping town. I still think Spangled is the key to unlocking this game, and I grow more and more uncomfortable with his continued absence after the prod dodge. Whatever happens, I think we gain maximum info from limming inside that pool.

Who do you think is looking the most towny at this point?

I still like DArby; and I've not been able to get behind any of the reasons I've seen given for scumreading him. I thought his D2 open was a little off, but he seemed to recognise his mistake fairly quickly, whereas I think scum would have persisted with that a bit longer, particularly as it appears Thyn was also buying into the NK speculation for a short while. I would like to probe Roden a bit more, particularly around his towncase on Facebones, and I am not exactly thrilled he appears to have gone MIA right now, but if he really has gone on vacation, I'm not about to start scumreading him for it. He remains a townlean for me currently. Thyn has earned himself a slight townlean over the course of D2 as well, but that's based on gut more than anything really concrete. It's a pretty difficult ISO to sort, particularly being as heavy as it is on the questions, but it's notable how Thyn has been one of the few slots to engage with me on subjects such as the justification or otherwise of Spangleds' D1 FB read, even if we have come to different conclusions on the matter.

[Val89]

Welcome Vulture.

First, I want to note that, with your vote, it appears to me Thynhith is now at an unannouced E-1, which I do not like. Can you explain why you didn't annouce you were putting him at hammer range?

I don't want anyone coming along and hammering Thyn and then claiming they didn't realise that was the situation, so consider this post fair warning that

Thynhith is now at E-1.

I stand by my earlier thoughts that, given competing wagons between two slots that were basically null D1, I would rather lim the one that made pretty scummy postings D2 over the the slot that started to ping town D2, but I recognise that even with the deadline extension, there isn't an awful lot of time left. I won't allow my stubboness on the issue to result in a no-lim, but I won't be voting Thyn unless something comes up over the next few hours that makes clear I am wrong, or a no-lim appears to be alternative.

Happy scumday, btw, Facebones.

[Val89]

I'm more concerned about the fact that hammer appears to have been dropped before a claim.

I'm in agreement with the choice of lim, and would have likley come and done it myself after announcing intent, but I'm not feeling all that great about Margots progression on this wagon either..

[Val89]

Why am I still alive, though?

A Spangled/Thyn team would appear to have made life harder for themselves...

[Val89]

I also find myself a little doubtful whenever a night kill strongly points to a particular scum or scum team - it isn't as if scum can't take that into account when selecting the kill.

[Val89]

I mean fair. But also, I can't help but assume this was just a reaaaaaaally stupid NK

Yeah, as Thyn points out, people said that about Galron as well, although I thought I could see a reason why that kill makes sense then, I'm not doing so with this one. I was Townreading Darby, almost exclusively, and while I am pleased to be proven right on that score, I'm not entirely sure how taking out a slot that was taking heat from pretty much the rest of field benifits ANY scumteam. Sure, DArby wasn't the biggest fan of Spangled, but I've made no secret of the fact I haven't liked Spangled, nor you Margot, either, and I think it would have been obvious the Facebones flip wasn't going to do anything to change to mind on that score.

I think I'm going to have to wait for Spangled to come in and see if I feel any differently about that slot after hearing from them.

[Val89]

Well, lucky for us, that's just straight up PoE solved, then.

I can't figure out what you mean about the stuff with code around it, did you mean post 323?

In any case, the Thyn crumb is pretty conclusive, but this is a ELO, so out of an abundance of caution: any CC?

[Val89]

Fuck it. Good enough for me.
VOTE: MargotRosa

[Val89]

As if you get out of it by hammering your partner...

[Val89]

Well, thanks for conceding in a humorous manner, I guess.

[Val89]

Man, that's the third game in a row scum!Roden had me fooled. I was a tiny bit less keen on you, but I would have had a tough decision had it been any other PRs but Masons.

[Val89]

All we need now is for Margot to self-Hammer, and it's a clean sweep.

What's the betting she comes and swears blind she's town instead until we get endgamed?

[Val89]

On the subject of that wagon, I have to say how impressed I am in retrospect that you held your nerve not to claim at E-1. I know Spangled wouldn't have hammered you, but you banked a lot on what was a very light townread.

That probably won the game, though. That deserves a shout out.

[Val89]

Well, I thought the Margot hammer from Vulture was his funny way of conceding, but it does looks like he is actually going to go through the indignity of trying to suggest I am Margots partner...

It slipped me by thinking we just get endgamed, but that's what you meant by gentleman's battle, right?

[Val89]

Well, they are obviously going to shoot one of you tonight, so

maybe

if you make it clear you aren't ever going to buy they are actually town, perhaps Vulture will do us the curtesy of conceding today.

If not, at the very least can we have a fast night?

[Val89]

What's the betting she comes and swears blind she's town instead until we get endgamed?

It's not funny if I've already called it

[Val89]

Well...that's one way to try and WIFOM it, I guess.

My god, they are

actually

going to try and convince you to lim me tomorrow....

[Val89]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, you can have a good laugh at what an idiot I was in scumchat in a few days.

[Val89]

We thought we could sell it as a newbscum team buying his obvious fake PRs.

But then there was also an element of him seeming to try fly under the radar and avoid the night kill, so we decided just to shoot there anyhow, just in case.

[Val89]

PR softs*

[Val89]

The embarrassing bit is the N2 kill, where I spent ages figuring out what F3s we could get to with all various combinations of possible PRs... Except the actual ones we had, where I just went 'nah, it ain't Thyn. He would have claimed'

[Val89]

makes sense that the two repped slots are scum, now that I actually think

For what it's worth, I think Roden had genuine IRL activity problems - I didn't detect any sense that he was unhappy playing scum, or how the game was going.

I also think the person who occupied my slot previously never picked up their role pm because they had abandoned the site between joining the queue and the game start.

I mention this because I wouldn't want you to have a false impression going forward because that's how it worked out in this game. I've replaced into 3 games, now, I think, and 2 of those were town.

[Val89]

A particular highlight on a re-read is me deciding that "{Me, Spangled, Thyn} I think I win, but Spangled is the kingmaker and I have been pushing them, or {You, Spangled, Thyn} I think is a win on a Thyn lim."

[Val89]

Will the Masonry thread be released for this game?