newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

[Thynhith]

VOTE: Thynhith

Lack of vowels. That's going to be annyoing.

sad for you I guess, as a consolation prize I'll give you a VOTE: Galron
for the phonetically challenged, the "thyn" sounds like thin

[Thynhith]

Unfortunately I know exactly what Cook is doing, which means this is gonna be another weird newbie game.

Cook doing this strat as scum:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928402

T3 copying the strat as town:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87394

past games, did the the strat ever work? it sounds like it would out the tracker for a 2/3 chance of being NKd

[Thynhith]

VOTE: Thynhith

Lack of vowels. That's going to be annyoing.

y’know, I always thought Ringo was the least interesting of the Beatles

VOTE: Spangled

..and we get to E-1 on page 3 - darby did you know that spangled was at E-2 before you voted him?

[Thynhith]

Roden, sorry but I'm not reading past games. If you have posts to link to, that's okay. But I'm not reading games unless I generate some WIM.

Never heard of WIM before, what does it stand for?

[Thynhith]

Giving Roden a town read.

galron I'm not sure how you came to that read after only 5 posts, can you explain your thinking? you mentioned you were a "town hunter" before

[Thynhith]

back now.

Cook's Handy, Dandy Plan

1. Tracker claims Day One. If nobody claims Tracker we just eliminated three setups (A2, B1, and B3).
   Protectives go on the Tracker claim. This will mean that the Tracker is jailkept in A2 and protected in B3.
   
   Tracker reports result D2. If Tracker claims blocked then we know we're in A2 and play the Tracker as an IC. If scum tries to ride the towncred then they're functionally down a player.
   If Tracker claims a result we just go Follow The Cop from here since Mafia only gets a rolecop.
   
2. If no Tracker claims then we have a normal D1 with a normal D1 elimination.
   
3. D2, Cop claims with result. Scum killing either the cop or their clear will result in the other one being IC'd the next day, therefore they must shoot elsewhere.
   
   If Masons exist then one Mason claims Cop with a clear on their partner, since either one dying proves the other one.
   
   If Scum tries to do this with partners then we'll end up 1-for-1'ing cop claims and we'll invariably win.
   
4. If you get an FN message, claim it but not who sent it. If you or the FN are run up to E-1 you may claim the message. We will preserve the FN from elimination for one night to let them send another message, if someone reports it the next day the FN is cleared. Jailkeeper, if there's a claimed FN don't prot them for one night, let them get a message – if scum kills them that leaves us rolecop vs jailkeeper, which we can win. This is our worst possible configuration.
   
5. Prots don't claim unless you're at E-1 or you need to counterclaim.

Let me try analyzing this, I'm still rather skeptical of it

No one claims:
We eliminate three setups. This is somewhat beneficial for determining our setup, but not imo significant. Also informs scum of what PR we may have.
Tracker + Doc:
The most ideal setup, only has a 1/9 chance of happening.
Tracker + JK:
Jailkeeper is tied up using their power on tracker and unable to investigate potential scum. Same with tracker. Wouldn't it be better for them both to claim? If scum don't cc, we'll have two IC, one of which can investigate once (the other gets killed).
Tracker + FN:
Our tracker gets NKd.

So we have a 1/9 chance of a beneficial outcome, 1/9 chance of a bad outcome, and a 7/9 chance of a meh outcome. I don't see how this is any better than no strat, @Cook could you explain how this strat would improve our odds?

[Thynhith]

Sorry for my absence, I was either sleeping or working. On my lunch break now, but before I go back some food for thought: not reading a players post due to apathy seems worse than not reading it due to laziness. Galron, is it just Cook's posts you're apathetic towards? Why?

I have an Opinion on Facebones now but I want to see what Thynhith has to say about him before I detail it.

@Facebones yeah, I get you on the whiteknighting, and what’s more I agree; I don’t think DArby is whiteknighting me, since it seems more targeted

at

Galron than defending

me

especially since he’s disagreed with me a couple times already in-thread

I always get nervous that I’m getting pocketed/buddied, since I like to do it so much as scum

hey Thynhith, now that you’re around, can I have your opinion on Facebones’ entrance?

Eh idk why it's that important but alright. Feels fairly natural to me, though FB has been lurking a bit yesterday and today. Can't read anything with only three posts

[Thynhith]

@Cook:

I'm not necessarily anti-you. I don't think your strategy is scummy either, but I'm glad you understand why I don't trust it. I think if you were solely focused on getting the strategy to go through then my vote would be on you, but you're still at least trying to play the game and get discussion going at the same time.

I agree with the Null read on Thyn though, his posts just feel empty. He asks a couple basic questions but doesn't really do anything with the responses anyone gives him, and the post dissecting Cook's strat looks good but is really just a rewording of what Cook already said before. Kinda just makes me think of scum who isn't sure what to say.

VOTE: Thynhith

I agree with you, if my posts feel empty it's because they are. I'm honestly not too sure what to do atm. Nothing's really caught my attention so far, cook's done nothing except suggest her strat, others have only a few posts or are lurking like me. It's really only spangled who's been posting avidly.

[Thynhith]

jeez Facebones you were awake late
or uh up early as the case may be
as to my read on Thynhith, no it didn't develop with that answer
I just hoped maybe they'd seen the stuff I had

I think so far wrt Thynhith I have a slight townlean; how they poked Galron over his sudden Roden read was the same thought I had
I really like to look for mindmeld with other players, 'cause games where I've mindmelded with someone and stuck with them all the way are just the best-feeling mafia games — you're not a poor, lonely VT struggling to make sense of it all; you have someone you trust fully and who trusts you
but that wasn't really mindmeld with Thynith anyway
so a wee townlean, just outta the null basket

Don't be buddying me here - even if you're not, it still feels like buddying and it's making me anxious lol

[Thynhith]

Giving Roden a town read.

galron I'm not sure how you came to that read after only 5 posts, can you explain your thinking? you mentioned you were a "town hunter" before

Now you're here Galron, still waiting to see why you townread Roden?

[Thynhith]

I'm not surprised. How do you want to proceed with the day now?

Margot or Thyn.

You want to lim Margot because she disagrees with your strat, or because she doesn't like your tone? Any actual reason you think she's scummy?
Same for me, I believe you read me as null a few posts back. Have you changed your mind on that?

[Thynhith]

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

There's a week left for D1 - why are you trying to raise a wagon, or get people to agree to one, this early? Very odd how you're jumping the gun like this. And you haven't posted why you read them as scum, now or before. Your post feels like scum fishing for support.
I'd quote some of your previous posts, but there aren't any relevant. Wanting to lock on an elim this early is not town behavior
VOTE: DArby

[Thynhith]

so do you no longer scumread Galron? why not?
and what is it about Cook that’s scummy?
what about me?

I never said I stopped scumreading Galron, but they're lesser on my radar. 160 doesn't look good from Cook. I want to wait to expand on my reading of you.

I very much so dislike that PoE from DArby.

Very much so dislike it.

I'm not surprised. How do you want to proceed with the day now?

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

Before you were looking for elim support, now you only want to "expand on my reading" of Spangled? Same for Cook, the only thing you have to say about her is post 160 "doesn't look good"? Why this change in perspective Darby?

[Thynhith]

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

So are these two just the scum team to you? Or are you just certain there's one scum between them?

I’m more sure on Cook than Spangled.

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

There's a week left for D1 - why are you trying to raise a wagon, or get people to agree to one, this early? Very odd how you're jumping the gun like this. And you haven't posted why you read them as scum, now or before. Your post feels like scum fishing for support.
I'd quote some of your previous posts, but there aren't any relevant. Wanting to lock on an elim this early is not town behavior
VOTE: DArby

I see it the opposite way. Roughly four days have passed with little happening. I don’t think it’s right to say pushing for a wagon is scummy because I’m interacting with the only two real people of suspicion. Spangled is getting townread for a high post count when a vast majority are asking questions and then responding to those questions

after

someone answered. I don’t see that as towny. I don’t want blind trust to build. I don’t see how Cook can post a strategy she tried as a scum in a previous game (24) and it not seem more suspicious? I take back my post 160 claim, though. I read it again and I think my read was the only emotional one which tainted the rest of my read of the post.

You said you’d quote more but you can’t. What do you mean specifically?

I stand by 181. I don’t see how getting unsubstantial reads and asking light questions is scum hunting. I think we need to get real reactions with real pressure.

Giving Roden a town read.

galron I'm not sure how you came to that read after only 5 posts, can you explain your thinking? you mentioned you were a "town hunter" before

Now you're here Galron, still waiting to see why you townread Roden?

A little more familiarty with him.

so what is it about his behaviour or tone that suggests he’s playing to his town meta and not his scum meta?

Nothing in particular. Just a feeling.

Didn’t Roden literally just won newbie 2076 virtually unquestioned as scum singlehandedly? (congrats btw) Galron is still on my radar.

I believe that Cook believes the strategy is a legitimate one. It's been used by town as well, and I'm not surprised scum!cook would suggest it considering it's low success rates, but potential towncred. Well the strat is NAI, but if Cook were pushing it too hard, then you might have something.
I'd quote some of your past posts that back up your call to wagon, but there aren't any. I wouldn't have as much as an issue if you'd actually showed signs of scumreading cook/spangled earlier. Being so inconsistent does not make you look townie. If you do want to get "get real reactions with real pressure," why do it by trying to lim early D1? If I were scum, I'd laugh it off.

If you were able to lim Cook/Spangled within the next few days, would you do that?
you're both on my radar now (Galron moreso)

[Thynhith]

I do think it's funny Galron said he isn't pocketing me and then town read me soon afterward lol. But going off his past games I don't think scum!Galron would do that. And no I'm not trying to get comfy in his pocket here.

Is it that you don’t think he’d do that as scum, and he must be therefore town, or just that it’s something he could do as town?
(which leaves him open to being scum, of course)

‘cause that’s a small reason to rule him out of being scum; a small reason to essentially locktown him

I never said anything about him being lock town.

I've played a few games with him now, and I'm just starting to pick up on his general tone. I think it's easy to scum read him due to his tone, but it softens a bit when he's scum and he falls a bit more into the background. This is just an assumption but it seems like a natural self-preservation thing to me.

So for me I guess it's less that he town read me off of so little and more because his tone so far is a bit of a meta tell. I'm not town locking him but he's definitely a town read for me.

@Roden about your meta tell of Galron, do you feel it has changed at all? How confident are you of it? It sounds like not a great deal of difference between scum!Galron and town!Galron. And he does seem to have fallen "into the background" as you say, though hard to say how much.
Imo his tone would normally indicate scuminess - his posts are abrupt and dispassionate, and he seems to be not contributing much, nor engaging. What's your current read of him?

[Thynhith]

I'm townleaning spangles.

weren’t you scumreading me before? what’s changed?

A re-read of the game.

What did you see, in your reread?

Spangled is getting townread for a high post count when a vast majority are asking questions and then responding to those questions

after

someone answered.

mate, I did that

once

sorry, that’s just such a silly misrep

Ironic, you did it a second time right after you said that..

[Thynhith]

@Val
First off, welcome to the thread! Any amount of posting will be infinitely better than your predecessor, and cheerfully scrutinized.
Can I get your opinion on Margot vs Cook? I got the impression that exchange wasn't town vs town.
About the potential AI of Cook's strat, my opinion is:
"It's been used by town as well, and I'm not surprised scum!cook would suggest it considering it's low success rates, but potential towncred. Well the strat is NAI, but if Cook were pushing it too hard, then you might have something."
Why would've another town player have used the strat in another game if it offered an advantage to scum? I find it hard to believe the strat is AI, while Cook's lack of other content is far more telling.

[Thynhith]

I'm flip flopping on Spangled.

Val89's catchup posts, if that's what they are, underwhelm me. Cook's strategy isn't going to be implemented, and while it's fine to talk about players' reactions to the proposal, focusing on the substance of the strategy is futile, and I believe of little value when it comes to reads. (Maybe other than Cook's, but I haven't seen it yet)

Terse and dispassionate is actually a good description of me, Spangled. Unless I get a couple of drinks in me

Quite frankly, they're not any more underwhelming than your posts. There's no issue with you being "terse and dispassionate," but nearly all your posts lack substance. You've posted many one-liners that add nothing of value, and your responses to questions seem to be dodging an answer, rather than an answer proper. I'd expect town to be sharing views and analyzing posts, not giving off vague impression reads. All anti-town. Would love to see some reasons for your Spangled read?

pedit: I love how you're sheeping Val

Spoiler:

I'm townleaning spangles.

weren’t you scumreading me before? what’s changed?

A re-read of the game.

What did you see, in your reread?

A hint you may be town.

Margot is a dead null.

I don't understand the town reads on facebones

Unless that person is Cook, because how can you be alert to an open wolf if you don't feel like reading their lengthy posts?

This proposes that you aren't reading her posts also.

Facebones, can you show me how my not reading those posts leads to me not being aware of their contents?

Giving Roden a town read.

galron I'm not sure how you came to that read after only 5 posts, can you explain your thinking? you mentioned you were a "town hunter" before

Now you're here Galron, still waiting to see why you townread Roden?

A little more familiarty with him.

[Thynhith]

EBWOP More specifically: why the swing in read of Spangled?
What makes you lean scum on Facebones, do any of his posts stand out to you?

[Thynhith]

That said, the Cook V MargotRosa spat, as much as it was, seems genuine enough for me to say I'm reasonably confident that it wasn't Scum theatre, so that's at least some progress.

Are you ruling out town vs scum for that one?
Also I'd love to check which of Spangled's posts you're referencing, but the links lead to another thread, can you repost those?

[Thynhith]

Erm what does TMI stand for?

[Thynhith]

Sorry I've been out of town (pardon the pun) for the last few days, but I have reread or skimmed the entirety of D1 so far.
"Spangled, on the other hand is much more straightforward, and everything else aside, if they aren't the pair; and I have to decide if I am in a newbie game where mafia is trying to scam us with a ridiculous display of open-wolfing, or a more traditional nervous newbscum just slipping here and there slightly, and I think that being honest with myself I have to conclude the latter as more probable."
Val the issue I have here is I think you're tunneling too hard. You're picking up on lots of small "tells" here and there and it looks like a plausible newbscum. I see much of this attributed to personal playstyle. Which posts do you think have a nervous tone to them? His constant questioning seems like his choice, rather than aiming to misdirect town. I would say he is scumleaning at most, and certainly more pro-town than Galron. Both of them I wouldn't lim D1.
My preference for D1 would be Cook, on account of the questionable strat she pushed. I'm not willing to support any wagon yet tho - I feel there's a scum we're not seeing

[Thynhith]

@Val can I get your opinion on the possibility of scum!Darby?
I'm starting to sound like spangled now, aren't I?
Yeah I've pretty much decided now - barring anything unexpectedly damning, my top preference is Cook. VOTE: Cook
Val I dislike how you initially zoned in on her strat, and I'm not comfortable using that alone, but it's her other anti-town behaviour that makes scum!Cook much more likely (periodic lurking, no substance, refusal to cooperate, etc)

[Thynhith]

Phew I was not expecting a full read list, but I'll take it. Fairly reassuring that you have similar reads to me (or maybe too reassuring). I considered Roden and Darby to be townleaning, though I don't have your prior experience with them to say that with as much confidence. Mainly because they the ones pushing people and contributing discussion, consistently. As for Facebones and Margot, I still consider them both null, who lack enough content for me to be sure. Margot's interaction with Cook seemed genuine enough, so I don't think her misreads make her scumleaning. Galron I consider scumleaning, and I'm not sure I could justify reading him as town with such blatantly anti-town behavior. "make it clear HE is following and thinking in the same directions I am, like and 295" is rather ironic because he immediately follows 295 with

VOTE: mewtaph

What say you, mew?

..showing he missed something as important as a replacement.
Anyways, those are my thoughts. Already said how Spangled is too ambiguous to lim now. I'm very curious about how Cook will flip, and about who gets NKd.

[Thynhith]

Okay I think Word has made a convicing push, where I haven't been as thorough as he.

VOTE: cook

Who is Word? guessing that's not an acronym

[Thynhith]

UNVOTE: Cook
Unvoting until near EoD, in case someone lolhammers

[Thynhith]

Ah crap it looks like I miscounted, with this VOTE: Cook, you're back at E-2.

Cook. You’re now at e-2. If you have any better defense nows the time to use it. We only have 3 days left.

[Thynhith]

UNVOTE: Cook
Unvoting until near EoD, in case someone lolhammers

Ah crap it looks like I miscounted, with this VOTE: Cook, you're back at E-2.

Cook. You’re now at e-2. If you have any better defense nows the time to use it. We only have 3 days left.

Huh?

You acknowledge that Cook is at lolhammer territory, then you make surprise that Cook's at E2 after your unvote.

No, no. Cook was never in lolhammer territory, but I miscounted and thought she was at E-1 so I unvoted. I'm revoting because that puts her at E-2, not E-1.

Okay I think Word has made a convicing push, where I haven't been as thorough as he.

VOTE: cook

Who is Word? guessing that's not an acronym

Apologies. Mixed him up with another player.

Who's "him"? You couldn't be less verbose if you tried.

[Thynhith]

Fuck me sideways and call me Susan I actually want to get off the wagon I've been pushing all d1.

Eh, I'll sleep on it.

I had this thought soo many times, I'm glad someone else said it as well. Tell us tomorrow how you're thinking, eh?
I'm so fucking paranoid that there's going to be a surprise scum

[Thynhith]

Which is why I think, still, that she's likely Town.

Who would be your other preference for elim D1 then?

[Thynhith]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

This implies that if Cook is town that you think they're wrong about more or less everything though.

I get why you're so insistent about why Spangled is town but a Darby vote just feels off.

Is Darby above suspicion for you?

Can someone who has a clearer idea of DArby's meta please tell me if the slightest little tic in my head telling me that his last three/four posts are indeed scum indicative actually is corroborated by his game style?

From val:

Spoiler:

"I'm townreading DArby. I think I got a little advantage on this one because I replaced in. I was reading a game already in progress, and while doing so, I found on more than one occasion the thoughts and questions I had were being often asked by DArby a couple of posts later. I've found this in other games and considered it a towntell, and it hasn't let me down yet. He also seems to be trying to drive the day towards an elimination even if have a slight disagreement on whom is the better choice for today (cf 181, 270). That might not always be a +town thing, but it has been directed against legitimately scummy players, and I think scum would be more content to let this game stall out a bit, which it has potential to do."

I don't exactly agree with this tho - at least my gut doesn't. Something about him just doesn't sit right with me, but has dropped nearly no tells, which makes me suspect smart scumplay.

[Thynhith]

prodding schadd

[Thynhith]

This.. was not expected. Why would scum take Galron out? If they'd left him alone, he'd be drawing all the heat on D2

[Thynhith]

On one hand we still have both scum but on the other we have both power roles.

VOTE: Val

Why are you still alive?

VOTE: Val would like to know as well. In any case, this makes me townlean Spangled. Val's primary scumreads were Cook and Spangled. If Val is scum, Spangled is unlikely to be as well. If Val was town and pushing scum!spangled then scum would take out Val instead, so perhaps Val you were pushing a town!spangled D1?
Why do you think scum didn't NK you?

[Thynhith]

@Darby why D3? We should be focusing on it this day. Not sure why you want to delay - your attitude is scummy to me

[Thynhith]

@Darby why D3? We should be focusing on it this day. Not sure why you want to delay - your attitude is scummy to me

That doesn't surprise me.

I want to delay it d3 because we don't have an established pattern of night kills and I feel it's intentional misdirect but I can't prove it. I

really

don't want to have a d1 2.0 where it's filled with WIFOM.

Perhaps, perhaps. I see your point - scum gains nothing directly from killing Galron, so it's possible they're trying to throw us off. Better to ignore Galron's NK for now. In the meantime I'll read over Galron's iso

[Thynhith]

This game is super quiet. Thanks, Val, for putting in the effort. Your work on cook seems solid. Somehow it still feels like lhf, but it's a decent case.

VOTE: Cook

would appreciate someone explaining what lhf means?

[Thynhith]

I want to see this flip. But it's time for me to leave work.

Funny people mentioning Facebones because there's something about that slot that doesn't sit right and I wanted to get deeper into it.

But there were a couple of townie things from Facebones as well, like when he pushed back at me.

And also:
"Spangled I'm back and forth on. Facebones leaning scum. Val leaning scum (very lightly bc of little content and I don't remember what the predecessor did)"

These are pretty much his final reads. He probably ends up townreading Val more towards EoD (see above post)
I believe he also said Margot was null, though his read may have changed.

It's really a shame he never gave much reasoning for these..

pedit: Ah interesting take by Galron. Given how Cook flipped, I do wonder if Val was tunneling her for towncred

[Thynhith]

@Darby why D3? We should be focusing on it this day. Not sure why you want to delay - your attitude is scummy to me

That doesn't surprise me.

I want to delay it d3 because we don't have an established pattern of night kills and I feel it's intentional misdirect but I can't prove it. I

really

don't want to have a d1 2.0 where it's filled with WIFOM.

Perhaps, perhaps. I see your point - scum gains nothing directly from killing Galron, so it's possible they're trying to throw us off. Better to ignore Galron's NK for now. In the meantime I'll read over Galron's iso

The whiplash tho.

What happened to you wanting to break this down today?

Well you've pointed out to me the NK was probably misdirection, and I agree. All we can get is wifom, so better to ignore it. I also realize my conclusions before about townreading spangled because of the NK may be somewhat flawed

[Thynhith]

Ok, lets assume the NK was intentional (even tho it likely wasn't). What are our logical conclusions?
Probably that Spangled felt pressured by Galron, or whoever scum are, they're distanced from Galron, interaction-wise. Spangled was the only one Galron was really scumreading/pressuring.
Since we know the NK was likely intentional, it's possible scum are trying to throw shade on spangled, or are really someone Galron's townread. By Galron flipping green, those townread would get towncred.
Who benefits from shade on spangled? Val, who was tunneling him and pushing for his elim D1. There's no one Galron was really townreading.

I'm falling down the wifom rabbit hole so fast, remind me not to do this again. ^^The above is all speculation, please take none of it as my opinion

[Thynhith]

I still don't like Darby.

For whatever reason? Or just your gut feeling? I note that you scumread both Darby and Galron for large amounts of filler. Now Galron's flipped green, still confident about your Darby read?

[Thynhith]

Tbh both of you guys "feel" town to me, it's mainly FB/Roden I'm concerned with

[Thynhith]

Val’s still alive because scum killed Galron for crumbing.

Amen. Galrons last words were, refering to me, were "Maybe you'll be protected tonight, if that's where you're going."

I am inclinded to treat with suspicion anyone who is advancing theories as to why Galron was selected as the NK without acknoledging that, given what was said in twilight, scum would be forced to consider the possibility they wouldn't be able to take a shot a me without going through Galron first. It looks he basically threw himself in the path of the bullet like a secret service agent, and I am asking myself why some slots are speculating on Galrons reads, etc, and are pretending they didn't see that he was crumbing pretty hard.

Maybe you'll be protected tonight, if that's where you're going.

I must admit the possibility of his last words being a crumb totally went over my head. It does make sense in hindsight, and far better explanation than newbscum or endless wifom.
"pretending they didn't see that he was crumbing pretty hard" - it may be obvious for you but not half as much for not half as experienced players.

[Thynhith]

I'm so far in the camp that it isn't enough to justify that read that I consider that response suspicious in itself, but I acknowledge that other people do look for different things, and have different thresholds, when making their reads. As such, I would feel happier if other players could at least give some indication as to where they fall on that scale.

It is important because I think that a scum!Spangled was TMIing Facebones as town there, rather than TRing his buddy, so I wouldn't support a Facebones wagon unless and until I saw a Spangled flip - I don't think I get any information from the other way around. If, one the other hand, I can be convinced that I might be wrong on this issue, and that TR was in the reasonable range of responses to that ISO, then the possibility of a town!Spangled changes that calculus.

I'm not quite sure I understand this. I'd be in favour of limming FB today, and considering Spangled for D3. Behaviour-wise, there is a much stronger argument to be made for scum!FB and with spangled's activeness, it will be easy to pick out any scumplays. You're saying you wouldn't get any information if FB flipped first, but why is that? If he flipped green that would exonerate spangled's "dodgy" read and we'll have rid ourselves of the high chance of scum!FB. If he flipped red we'll get rid of scum, I'm not sure what we have to lose here.

[Thynhith]

Thynhith is on thin ice.

I'm

always

on thin ice, for some reason..

This leaves you and Thyn where I have the opposite problem, where I keep wanting to town read you but you'll post something that pings the hell out of me or you'll say something just feels off and misaligned with the rest of town.

Hey, at least I'm working my way towards a townread
did I ping the hell out of you just now?

[Thynhith]

I'm so far in the camp that it isn't enough to justify that read that I consider that response suspicious in itself, but I acknowledge that other people do look for different things, and have different thresholds, when making their reads. As such, I would feel happier if other players could at least give some indication as to where they fall on that scale.

It is important because I think that a scum!Spangled was TMIing Facebones as town there, rather than TRing his buddy, so I wouldn't support a Facebones wagon unless and until I saw a Spangled flip - I don't think I get any information from the other way around. If, one the other hand, I can be convinced that I might be wrong on this issue, and that TR was in the reasonable range of responses to that ISO, then the possibility of a town!Spangled changes that calculus.

EBWOP
For what it's worth, at the time Spangled townread FB, he was null for me. I believe I said as much. Since, I'd consider him a scumlean

[Thynhith]

Ah that makes sense then. If you put it that way, I'd probably have a weak read on FB atp. I don't agree that this is lim-worthy behaviour tho. I can see where spangled is coming from, in that he had a strong first impression of FB, within the bounds of reasonable play style. Still stand by preferring to lim Facebones based on his greater (de)merit, compared to spangled's.

[Thynhith]

It was probably because, Galron being Galron, the read just came out of nowhere. And atp Roden had done nothing but post about the strat, so I wanted to get some reasoning from Galron.

[Thynhith]

I should've done this earlier

@mod requesting a prod for Facebones, who hasn't posted for at least 36 hours

[Thynhith]

This.. was not expected. Why would scum take Galron out? If they'd left him alone, he'd be drawing all the heat on D2

Thyn, can you explain why you think Galron would be taking all the heat today if they were still alive? Also;

On one hand we still have both scum but on the other we have both power roles.

VOTE: Val

Why are you still alive?

VOTE: Val would like to know as well. In any case, this makes me townlean Spangled. Val's primary scumreads were Cook and Spangled. If Val is scum, Spangled is unlikely to be as well. If Val was town and pushing scum!spangled then scum would take out Val instead, so perhaps Val you were pushing a town!spangled D1?
Why do you think scum didn't NK you?

I am also putting a pin in this for later, because there is something very odd about going from a scum read of Spangled to a Town read of Spangled based entirely on who was eliminated, especially given that you seem to agree with DArby that the NK was weird and intentional

Imo Galron would have been a strong candiate for policy elim D2 and would have taken heat for being on the Cook wagon/anti-town behavior D1. All the heat might have been hyperbole, but a good part of it.

I think you've misunderstood my second post. I don't think I've ever scumread spangled, I was suggesting that scum was town due to Val being left alive. Generally spangled was null, early D1, and townleaning after that.

[Thynhith]

Understood.

For what it is worth, I think Facebones is looking fairly scummy following his response to questioning today.

In normal circumstances, I would be voting there after that, but I still can't shake the feeling that Spangled was TMIing FB as town D1. Thyn tells me he considers Spangles' read to be legitimate, and it's a playstyle thing, but I found that a little unsatisfying given I noticed he took issue at Galron giving a town read on Roden when Rodens' ISO at the time was more comprehensive than FBs.

We are waiting to hear from Roden; I'll see if Spangle's answers can help me resolve the problem I am having, and I think we need to hear a little more from Thyn as to where he stands on issue of Facebones, because I am still struggling to move past a null read there - I've read through the ISO again tonight and still nothing is jumping out in either direction.

My issue with Galron was the lack of substance in his townread, not the read itself. Spangled at least tried to justify his own read, which makes it more legitimate in my book.

As for FB, let me put it this way: take how scummy I am, and FB is scummier than that. This post in particular:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Facebones

What's your deal?

I'm just not a big fan of D1's, there's no information to go off. Apologies for my lurky play, but for me it's easier to class people as either town or scum from their interactions with other players and seeing which ones I think are legitimate. It might be stupid or whatever, but I feel if I interrupt these people's interactions it'll interfere with the flow and I won't be able to get a clear a read on them as what I could.

If they'd left him alone, he'd be drawing all the heat on D2

Would he have been?

Spangled was the only one Galron was really scumreading/pressuring.

Galron stopped scumreading/pressuring Spangled on page 8, didn't he? He then moved onto Cook (voting for her twice and declaring intent) and myself.

My perspective on the TvT scenario is that if Margot or Val have one scum between them, killing the other or me makes more sense than killing Galron.

Just to touch on this a bit, why would scum Val or scum Margot NK you if you incorrectly labeled them as town? Wouldn't that be more of an incentive to keep you around?

Margot, Thynhith, DArby, anyone- I'm here to answer all questions in order to clear up confusion you may have about my alignment

@Facebones

Here you're trying to justify yourself lurking D1. Do you really expect us to believe that was due to your "preference"? I've metaread you. In your games you make over 25 posts D1. And have you gleaned a single thing from lurking all of D1? Nada, you're still rereading. You're not even keeping up to the game. Oh and by the way, quoting snippets in Post 587 and 599 and responding doesn't make you any townier. You have no reads, you have no opinions. If "it's easier to class people as either town or scum from their interactions with other players," you've classed not a single player.

"I'm here to answer all questions in order to clear up confusion you may have about my alignment"
is such a desperate sentence. Townies know they are town. They don't clear up confusion weakly, they proclaim their towniness openly. This is just optics. You don't even sound convinced you are town, because you're not.
I admire your boldness in attempting to convince us your scumlurking was a legit strat, but I'm going to have to VOTE: Facebones

FB is at E-2, curious what he says before we elim him.

[Thynhith]

@Darby you don't seem to have found Roden suspicious throughout D1, what's happened D2 to change your read - just post 631 or something more? How sure are you?

My read on Roden will also shift depending on Cook's flip

Can you also explain what you meant here, and how your read has shifted after Cook flipped green?

[Thynhith]

I'm here. Sorry I've been quiet, work kicked my ass the last couple days, I haven't had much sleep, and I just went on vacation.

Game state feels weird from what I've skimmed, a lot of people seem too scared to seriously push anything. Nothing's happened to affect my reads from the last time I gave them either.

Does anyone have a town case for Darby or Thyn? Because we should be voting there, I don't like the Facebones votes. I can town case him later tonight if no one sees the town posts that have pinged me, from there we can probably just PoE solve.

If there any posts I missed that somebody wanted me to respond to, could you quote it please? I'm drifting off and on into sleep.

@Roden towncase Facebones please. Would appreciate a fresh look on things, while Val and Margot are locked in their arguement. Especially consider post 587 and 599. Unless your read has changed, ofc.
@Val I'm not a fan of using very old games for metareads, especially scumthreads. If you could confirm scum!Facebones lurking D1 more recently, that would far more convincing.

Also no one's cased Darby or I so far, despite multiple people asking for it.

[Thynhith]

TOWN: Spangled (still a bit sus of the super early town read of me and going along with Cook's strat, but does seem to be trying to spark conversation (which is NAI, I know, but to me it doesn't feel forced). I do have similar concerns with DArby as he outlined in 213. Also he stands by his thoughts and doesn't seem to be wishy washy and easily swayed even if those thoughts aren't broadly accepted and go against the grain)

Val: (one of the same reason as Spangled (albeit in a more accusatory manner)- he's asking people questions and genuinely seems to be trying to solve this. His interrogation of me comes across as a genuine townie)


NULL: Thynhith, Roden


SCUM: Margot (for putting forth a decent case on Cook and essentially at the point of no return backtracking and started TR-ing her for reasons still unbeknownst to me)

DArby (due to his constant pushing to try and secure the Cook elim, I've still got my beliefs he's trying to line up townies)

Just a coincidence you're scumreading the guys on your wagon, eh?
Well since you scumread Darby for pushing Cook's wagon, did Val not do the same, and arguably more aggressively? Yet you're townreading him. Margot backtracked, and she was correct in reading Cook as town. Do you think that was TMI coming from scum?
Your readlist comes across as extremely shallow.

just, sorry, haven’t read the last two pages, just wanted to say that quickly
his crumbs — or one of them, at least — were so obvious that I was pretty sure he wasn’t a PR, just either bad scum setting up a fakeclaim or a VT trying to draw the scum shot
what a play! what a fellow!

that’s the thing I deliberated on talking about before D1 end, btw, but I decided (rightly) it’d be better to wait, just in case he

was

in fact a PR, because to out him like that would be a wee bit embarrassing heh

This post is where Spangled draws attention to Galron crumbing to draw the NK. I'm assuming you must have read it while casing Spangled. Imo it was a scumplay drawing attention to the reason for their own kill - what did you think of it?

[Thynhith]

I feel more confident town reading DArby. I feel more confident scum reading Val. Roden is slipping into scum territory quickly. FB is Null. Thyn is still likely scum. I don't remember who the seventh slot is lol

VOTE: Thyn

What makes FB null for you? He's so blatantly scum, we have to lim him. Unless you can offer a better alternative, and I don't see how I'm scummier than he is? I'm scumreading him harder than I scumread Cook, he's lurked through D1 and barely seems motivated. His posts have nothing to show from reading our iso and he seems hellbent on not helping us at all. If you could offer a better alternative I'm happy to listen to you. Btw, you're missing spangled from your list.

I get where you're coming from on Val and Roden, but do you think them scummier than FB?

[Thynhith]

I feel more confident town reading DArby. I feel more confident scum reading Val. Roden is slipping into scum territory quickly. FB is Null. Thyn is still likely scum. I don't remember who the seventh slot is lol

VOTE: Thyn

I’ll give game-advancing content sometime, I swear. Problem is, I want to do a full reread of the thread and maybe some ISOs besides, both to answer Val’s question on where I’m at wrt DArby and Margot, and to get a handle on the game, and I haven’t had time so far. Soon.
tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow

@Spangled hows your reread going? Can you give us what you've got? EoD is in about a day and a half, so we really need your thoughts and vote in a timely manner.
@Val same goes for you, we cannot afford to nolim today and we can hardly rely on Roden

[Thynhith]

Thank you for the reminder, Val. Hadn't noticed I was on E-1. Choo choo, my train's been boarded so damn fast. And by the scummiest characters in town, no less. This is looking a lot like a speedwagon to me, and I'm so very concerned with it.

I don't have a null read on FB, he's just 'middle of the pack' for me. Scumlean if you want to split hairs but not as scummy IMO as you or Thyn as of their recent posting. The reasoning for that is that I feel they're setting up for a FB -> Spangled flip which really bothered me at the time, and then trying to nitpick and jab at FB today.

@Vulture I find it astonishing you could find FB null, and find my treatment of him poor. Which of my recent postings look scummy? This day I did my post to question and FB and did not find his response townie in the slightest. Your analysis seems more like a facade to swiftly mislim anyone to save your partner.

I'm so far in the camp that it isn't enough to justify that read that I consider that response suspicious in itself, but I acknowledge that other people do look for different things, and have different thresholds, when making their reads. As such, I would feel happier if other players could at least give some indication as to where they fall on that scale.

It is important because I think that a scum!Spangled was TMIing Facebones as town there, rather than TRing his buddy, so I wouldn't support a Facebones wagon unless and until I saw a Spangled flip - I don't think I get any information from the other way around. If, one the other hand, I can be convinced that I might be wrong on this issue, and that TR was in the reasonable range of responses to that ISO, then the possibility of a town!Spangled changes that calculus.

I'm not quite sure I understand this. I'd be in favour of limming FB today, and considering Spangled for D3. Behaviour-wise, there is a much stronger argument to be made for scum!FB and with spangled's activeness, it will be easy to pick out any scumplays. You're saying you wouldn't get any information if FB flipped first, but why is that? If he flipped green that would exonerate spangled's "dodgy" read and we'll have rid ourselves of the high chance of scum!FB. If he flipped red we'll get rid of scum, I'm not sure what we have to lose here.

You didn't even say what you disliked about it, but I'll save you the effort. I was simply discussing with Val the merits of limming FB first or Spangled first. Unless you can put some weight and effort behind your reads, I'm ignoring them.

FoS Vulture

[Thynhith]

@Val and Spangled

We have very little time now. Facebones has responded with extraordinary scuminess when questioned today and failed to give weighty reads and lurked throughout the entirety of D1. Get on his wagon now.

Scum is trying to force you to elim me or nolim - don't let them.

Doing nothing atp is the most anti-town thing you can do. My wagoners are trying to shade my last posts as scummy. You know how many scumtells FB has dropped. Would you rather have him or me in MyLo? We only need two votes, please get on him now.

[Thynhith]

Oh, hell.

I didn't announce it because I'm blind as a bat. I still stand by it though.

Oh, really? You stand by ignoring scumtells and lurking and obvious defensiveness, and stand by limming someone with hours left on the clock by pure speculation on their last posts? Well you do you.

[Thynhith]

Do you see the part of that reply you just quoted where I said FB was explicitly a scumlean for me? I've already went over that it's not null, but I find people below him.

Furthermore, I've already laid out what I dislike about you. I went out of my way to quote several posts to explain why I dislike your recent tone; you are either intentionally ignoring these points to slander me, or you're not paying attention. Either way, this is not engaging in a towny way.

I have already stated what I disliked, as listed above, but AGAIN: I find it disconcerting how aggressively you're trying to push through Facebones today, compared to how unsure you were before. You have latched onto Facebones because Facebones is Easy Pickings (tm). You have framed him as an ideal elim

even if he is town

in a game where, if he is? Tomorrow becomes ELO because of that. You're showing carelessness.

Calm down with the font there. All you've done is quote a wall of posts that indicate truthfully - before I was unsure of FB, now I am. Perhaps you should have been less careless in your reread. It's quite clear that before, if FB was considered null, his recent posting have only shown him to be extremely scummy. That is why I am so confident now about pushing him. He's the best candidate for elimination, because he has only progressively become more scummy D2.

I am framing your analysis of my posts as mere speculation, because it hinges on the fact that before I was less confident of FB, and now I am. Very flimsy to be limming someone on. FB has consistently lurked through D1, given so many evasive and defensive answers and claimed several times his lurking was a legitimate strategy, one that yielded nothing in terms of reads. This is far more than mere speculation, which is why your vote on me looks very poor. Now take another look at Facebone's ISO please, and decide if you want to mislim me.

[Thynhith]

Choo choo, my train's been boarded so damn fast. And by the scummiest characters in town, no less.

Didn't you chastise me for thinking the people who were on my wagon were scummy before and my reads of them were shallow?
This is very hypocritical

Hardly hypocritical. I was scumleaning you and Roden's slot long before you got on my train, while you never scumread Darby and Margot until that post. And yes, the fact that you scumread them for a belief and backtracking I do find to be shallow.

[Thynhith]

Ok, well it's Spangled and Thynhith then

Can you assume for a minute it's not us? Then you can have fun limming us later.
You said FB flipping green would make you focus on Val and us. Has your take on him changed?

[Thynhith]

There's no universe in which it is anyone else and DArby is the one eliminated

What makes you so sure of that? You seem very certain it couldn't be anyone else. Darby, FB and I were the runners up to be elimmed. So now they NK Darby, to get town to focus on me. Is that impossible?

[Thynhith]

Now I think of it, Galron's NK was also a "stupid" NK. For having a stupid scumteam, we are coming very close to losing at MyLo.

[Thynhith]

Well, lucky for us, that's just straight up PoE solved, then.

I can't figure out what you mean about the stuff with code around it, did you mean post 323?

In any case, the Thyn crumb is pretty conclusive, but this is a ELO, so out of an abundance of caution: any CC?

Try quoting post 323 to get the words with code around them

[Thynhith]

I wonder how many folks can fit in a three-man wagon
VOTE: Margot

[Thynhith]

Well, I must say Vulture tarnished Roden's good reputation somewhat. All that sweet towncred, gone to waste...
I must say, what was the idea behind driving my train? Letting us lim FB would've been more subtle

[Thynhith]

Looks like we still have another ELo to win after this

[Thynhith]

I had faith I wouldn't be hammered, especially with your playstyle. The tight deadline and Roden getting replaced did make me sweat a little, though.

[Thynhith]

My sincere apologies, Margot. Things got out of hand far too quickly

[Thynhith]

Don't need to say it, Margot. I am so fucking tilted right now. Good sportsmanship and all - well played everyone.

[Thynhith]

Must be so. Don't you qualify to play in normal games now? So you shouldn't expect this sorta thing to happen again

[Thynhith]

Ya caught a pretty lucky break, guys. I would've gone for Vulture and we could've had a very tense ELo game on D4.

[Thynhith]

Also Margot, I don't think it was your fault it panned out like this in endgame -- is a good lesson though, to never vote in ELO until you are ready for the game to potentally end.

The fact that it's not our fault makes it somewhat worse, imho

[Thynhith]

Bruh I hate to sound like this, but of Margot and I were in ELo D4 we could very well have gone after Val.
Meh. Could've, would've, should've

[Thynhith]

Well out of the scum team Margot and you, I certainly thought you were scummier. I am getting a very strong fucking feeling I want to expunge D3 of mason chat

[Thynhith]

How many newbie games need I play before moving to normal?

[Thynhith]

Technically none. I've been doing one of each at the same time

That's cool, I'll try a normal game then. Maybe we'll be in the same one

[Thynhith]

I threw this game, this is my fault. Sorry, town. Didn’t stop Cook’s lim when I had reason to think she was town, took out Facebones when I had reason to think he was town, took out Margot because I was too lazy to go back and read the goddamn thread.

It's alright, not all just on you. I should've latched onto Vulture's quickwagon D2. Mafia is a team effort, after all. At least next time you'll learn caution in ELo and get better at playing.

[Thynhith]

I threw this game, this is my fault. Sorry, town. Didn’t stop Cook’s lim when I had reason to think she was town, took out Facebones when I had reason to think he was town, took out Margot because I was too lazy to go back and read the goddamn thread.

Hey guys, should I play a large or mini normal next? What's recommended for a newish player?

[Thynhith]

Good game guys, I learned loads from it
Will never trust a wall poster again, ya slimy sneaker ;P Hope to see y'all around