Manatee's Pokemon Large Theme | Game Over

[imaginality]

the scum are humans, i thought?

+1 it says team rocket

TIL Meowth is a human

[imaginality]

I highly doubt scums fake claim are an entire separate Pokémon and not just a new version of actual flavor

This seems to come from an informed perspective.

VOTE: Milobird

[imaginality]

i'm fucking mareep you dolt

I CC this claim.

Now i retract.

CC again.

I don't understand this series of posts.
Was STD not genuinely counter claiming?

[imaginality]

thinking about it, mastina, maybe you should put a reduction to the number of peeps who should visit you? Like, restrict it to half the PL or something, cuz i doubt we'd gain much worth from 4-5 of our powerful PRs taking a shot on you on the long term

also VOTE: alexandrite less talk more scrap

But how would that be determined? It’s not like we’re doing a mass claim on D1.

~Innuendos

Everyone decide whether your power is likely in the top 5 town powers. If no, don't target mastina.
If yes, generate a random number 1-100. If your random number is > 50 target mastina otherwise don't.

That should result in a few but not too many strong town powers targeting mastina without having to list their names publicly in advance.

Threshold can be adjusted according to how sure we want to be at least one town player targets mastina, and what proportion of players are likely to follow this approach vs ignore it.

[imaginality]

shea I danced for you are you going to respond to that

sorry prolly not

damn wish I saw this before I changed my vote

Then why didn't you change your vote back?

[imaginality]

House rule - the day your pokemon flavor gets outed you are post restricted for the remainder of the day to just say your pokemon name.

I endorse this service and/or product.

[imaginality]

Flavour Spec time: I'm currently guessing that the Team Rocket characters are not the Jessie/James/Meowth trio. I'm willing to bet that it's going to be Giovanni (Fire Red/Leaf Green), and the 4 execs from Gold/Silver (who were given names in Heart Gold/Soul Silver - Archer, Ariana, Petrel, and Proton). This makes more sense to me because of the confirmed 5 scum members and the fact that this game is role madness, making it less likely that a Rocket Goon would be thrown in the mix.

-M

I don't think human roles are consistent with the game mechanics?

"Each role is based off of a specific Pokémon from the franchises second and third Generation"

[imaginality]

-snip-

yeah but the problem is like, if we have 4-5 of our most powerful roles stack up on ya (which seems quite like a realistic thing to occur given the openeness of what could happen), it probably won't be of much worth in the end, because we essentially trade 3-4 night actions in exchange for hoping you're town and will use those well, see what i mean?

The approach I proposed in #503 would avoid that issue.

[imaginality]

I don't like Gypyx and Ralts jumping on mastina's comment about the people who see TSQ v STD as TvT being more likely scum than not.

It seemed like deliberately reading the comment in the worst way.

Ralts raised it as a question whereas Gypyx continued to paint it as though mastina was calling herself scummy even after reading mastina's reply to Ralts. Which, like, I don't see why Gypyx bothers to post that as town, but as scum it is a chance to splash a bit of dirt on someone.

VOTE: Gypyx

On STD v TSQ my initial take was slightly suspicious of STD and pro town on TSQ. Someone mentioned TSQ plays like that as scum also so that tempers my town read slightly but I still like his side of it. Still figuring out how I feel about the STD side of it. I didn't see the initial post as scummy but the initial reaction to TSQ's pressure did feel a bit hmmm... Like, I didn't like the retrofitting 'oh but look at the reactions I generated' part of the conversation. However there was also a hint of confused 'what are you on about'-ness to it.

Interesting also at Gypyx defended STD against TSQ early in that debate.

[imaginality]

Oh cool add Dwlee99 to Gypyx and Ralts on the pile of "scum shiftily sniffing for stuff to stir up so as to subtly scatter some sneaky suspicion on seemingly stand-up citizens"

[imaginality]

As the person who started brain celll wagon I like the gypyx wagon more

Why?

[imaginality]

imaginality

pops in thread looking to post just to post:

As the person who started brain celll wagon I like the gypyx wagon more

Why?

I wanted to see if WhemeStar was just jumping on the wagon for no good reason.

His answer that he sees the wagon as townier than other ones seems reasonable.

Top of page 26, so halfway there.

Townread: Milobird, TSQ
Townlean: Save The Dragons,
Nulltown: Wisdom, imaginality, Whemestar, SK, firebringer
Null: T3, Alexandrite, The Goat (not sure if this one has posted), mastina, KTT, ralts
Nullscum: Dwlee99, TIL
Scumlean: chowchow, Gypyx, sirCakez
Scumread: Woolax

VOTE: Kyouku

There is no freaking way you sr me after OMB.

Thanks for scumclaiming.

~I

This is a bad reason for calling ssbm scum because without a contrasting scum game to compare with, how can she know whether you playing like OMB is a town tell or NAI?

That said my sense is you're both town.


I think this is a really good catch:

On the other hand the Gypyx wagon gives off terrible vibes and feels like it fucking sucks, with scum latching onto it.

When I'm in a better mindset (hella tired right now, just reading to stay caught up, not really capable of good critical thinking), will be able to give that better thought.

This is an interesting callout; the only person you have south of null voting that is currently voting for Gypyx is imaginality vs. 3 who are voting for Brain Cell.

VOTE: mastina

Why didn't the Brain Cell wagon give you scum vibes when more of your scum reads are (or were, I'm not sure the current vote count) on that?

[imaginality]

Spoiler:

imaginality

pops in thread looking to post just to post:

As the person who started brain celll wagon I like the gypyx wagon more

Why?

I wanted to see if WhemeStar was just jumping on the wagon for no good reason.

His answer that he sees the wagon as townier than other ones seems reasonable.

Top of page 26, so halfway there.

Townread: Milobird, TSQ
Townlean: Save The Dragons,
Nulltown: Wisdom, imaginality, Whemestar, SK, firebringer
Null: T3, Alexandrite, The Goat (not sure if this one has posted), mastina, KTT, ralts
Nullscum: Dwlee99, TIL
Scumlean: chowchow, Gypyx, sirCakez
Scumread: Woolax

VOTE: Kyouku

There is no freaking way you sr me after OMB.

Thanks for scumclaiming.

~I

This is a bad reason for calling ssbm scum because without a contrasting scum game to compare with, how can she know whether you playing like OMB is a town tell or NAI?

That said my sense is you're both town.


I think this is a really good catch:

On the other hand the Gypyx wagon gives off terrible vibes and feels like it fucking sucks, with scum latching onto it.

When I'm in a better mindset (hella tired right now, just reading to stay caught up, not really capable of good critical thinking), will be able to give that better thought.

This is an interesting callout; the only person you have south of null voting that is currently voting for Gypyx is imaginality vs. 3 who are voting for Brain Cell.

VOTE: mastina

Why didn't the Brain Cell wagon give you scum vibes when more of your scum reads are (or were, I'm not sure the current vote count) on that?

I’m not sure whether she is or not but I think it’s a perfectly valid reason if you’re pretty much playing identically in two games where you flipped town and they’re sr you in the other.

I don’t see why this doesn’t just make Mastina wrong instead of scum?

~I

Spoiler:

imaginality

pops in thread looking to post just to post:

As the person who started brain celll wagon I like the gypyx wagon more

Why?

I wanted to see if WhemeStar was just jumping on the wagon for no good reason.

His answer that he sees the wagon as townier than other ones seems reasonable.

Top of page 26, so halfway there.

Townread: Milobird, TSQ
Townlean: Save The Dragons,
Nulltown: Wisdom, imaginality, Whemestar, SK, firebringer
Null: T3, Alexandrite, The Goat (not sure if this one has posted), mastina, KTT, ralts
Nullscum: Dwlee99, TIL
Scumlean: chowchow, Gypyx, sirCakez
Scumread: Woolax

VOTE: Kyouku

There is no freaking way you sr me after OMB.

Thanks for scumclaiming.

~I

This is a bad reason for calling ssbm scum because without a contrasting scum game to compare with, how can she know whether you playing like OMB is a town tell or NAI?

That said my sense is you're both town.


I think this is a really good catch:

On the other hand the Gypyx wagon gives off terrible vibes and feels like it fucking sucks, with scum latching onto it.

When I'm in a better mindset (hella tired right now, just reading to stay caught up, not really capable of good critical thinking), will be able to give that better thought.

This is an interesting callout; the only person you have south of null voting that is currently voting for Gypyx is imaginality vs. 3 who are voting for Brain Cell.

VOTE: mastina

Why didn't the Brain Cell wagon give you scum vibes when more of your scum reads are (or were, I'm not sure the current vote count) on that?

I’m not sure whether she is or not but I think it’s a perfectly valid reason if you’re pretty much playing identically in two games where you flipped town and they’re sr you in the other.

I don’t see why this doesn’t just make Mastina wrong instead of scum?

~I

Imaginality, can you please address this? Thanks.
3
~I

My point about the games was not about mastina. That was saying that if ssbm only had one game with you, that's not enough for you to reasonably expect her to lock town you based on meta. Because she may not know how your scum play looks compared with your town play, so "I'm playing similar to how I did as town" holds little weight.

My point about mastina was echoing the other post that there's something off about calling a wagon scummy right around when she posted her reads and most of her scum reads were on a different wagon.

[imaginality]

Kyouku can you link any of your scumgames for me? Imaginality, same question. Thanks.

~I

Since I started playing again a couple of months ago my only scum game has been [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=87408] Open 823[/quote]

And I was town in OMB. And have one game ongoing and that's it.

If you want to see games from like 10 years ago they're still linked in my wiki

[imaginality]

Since I started playing again a couple of months ago my only scum game has been Open 823

And I was town in OMB. And have one game ongoing and that's it.

If you want to see games from like 10 years ago they're still linked in my wiki

Tag fixed

[imaginality]

For the record this game pace is beyond what I expected.

I swear previous large themes I was in back in the day didn't reach 56 pages halfway through D1?

So at the moment I'm giving my thoughts on particular things that stand out to me rather than a fuller analysis of everything.

So I would say my play this game so far is different to both my town and my scum preferred style.

[imaginality]

The Gypyx wagon seemed better than the Brain one to me at the time I voted Gypyx earlier.
I'll take another look at Brain later after work but I didn't see anything since which made me instantly reconsider.

@TIL re mastina, yes she could be wrong town but with the pace of this game it seems plausible to me scum wouldn't take the time to ensure their posts are consistent with previous posts as much as they would in smaller/slower games.
I'm not claiming that in itself proves she's scum, but it's enough for me to want to apply some pressure and see how she responds. Particularly as it seemed like the earlier post pointing it out had gone overlooked.

@STD my other scumread so far was Gypyx. I want to post more about other players but that's going to have to wait til after work (~12 hrs from now)

[imaginality]

SirCakez is scummy for stuff like:

uhhhhhhh no
why would I even post that as scum?

ssbm is towny for stuff like post 1405, though I disagree that
post 1411 is a good reason to drop her scum read on Gypyx.

Dwlee99 is suspicious for stuff like:

Anyone trying to push someone being what they think is wrong should stop re: whatever the mastina convo is

Milobird is scummy for stuff like the end of #1425 where after casting doubt on STD the post ends with:

That said, I'm pretty disinterested in this line of conversation, it's old.
-Bell

Mastina explained her wagon vs players contradiction superficially reasonably:

Why didn't the Brain Cell wagon give you scum vibes when more of your scum reads are (or were, I'm not sure the current vote count) on that?

Because it didn't.

Vibes of a wagon are separate from reads on players.

You can have a vibe of a wagon being shitty in spite of thinking the names look good;
You can get a lack of a vibe on a wagon in spite of scumreading the names on it.
[...]
The two are entirely different concepts.

What I don't like about this though, is she didn't try to resolve it or dig deeper into it. She just threw the read out there. And my impression of mastina's town play from OMB is she likes to be very analytical and over think things, so I feel like for her to not analyse that contradiction goes against that. Because I don't believe she didn't notice it.

Someone asked me about my view on Sharing the Brain Cell. I've reread them in iso and I definitely am of the view they're town.

On Wisdom I feel like he's slightly less hmm concise in this game? But I don't think he's doing anything scummy. Just feel like I want to watch that space.

My reads:

Town:

ssbm
TSQ(DrKoba)
Sharing the Brain Cell
Ralts

Townish:

SleepyKrew
T3

Null in a no pings but not a strong town read way:

Firebringer
Kitty Trauma Team
chowchow
Save the Dragons

Null but a tad more dubious than the other bunch of nulls:

Alexandrite
Wisdom
WhemeStar
The Goat
Woolax

Scummy:

Milobird
Dwlee99
Gypyx
SirCakez
mastina

I think the lim today should be among the bottom five. I'd consider the five above also. I don't see myself voting anyone higher in my reads than that.

[imaginality]

More pressure on Woolax is good I think and I like the people on the Woolax wagon...
VOTE: Woolax

[imaginality]

On Wisdom I feel like he's slightly less hmm concise in this game?

What does this mean

I missed a word, that should read 'less hmm concise later in this game'
As in your more recent posts have more words relative to the earlier ones
It's probably nothing but I recalled you had a bit of pressure on you so I wondered if it was a response to that
Still probably nothing though

[imaginality]

Nope, completely missed that! Probably with my reread being more a bunch of isoing compared to actually rereading linearly through everything.

The fact I town read them both individually is reassuring - it combine to give me super strong confidence in my town read on that slot.

[imaginality]

Town:
TSQ(DrKoba)
Sharing the Brain Cell
Ralts

Townish:
SleepyKrew
T3

Null in a no pings but not a strong town read way:
Firebringer
Kitty Trauma Team
chowchow
Save the Dragons

Null but a tad more dubious than the other bunch of nulls:
Alexandrite
Wisdom
WhemeStar
The Goat
Woolax

Scummy:
Milobird
Dwlee99
Gypyx
SirCakez
mastina

You missed us

-Lies

I have missed you! It's been so long! How have you been? I - oh, I see what you mean.

Yeah, you're up in that town slot. I have no concerns from your posts, you seem active in a genuine and useful way not just noise.

[imaginality]

Woolax give us your reads list.
No reason not to if you're town.

[imaginality]

im at the point in my mafia "career" where explaining reads is something ive realized is pointless for players I have experience with - u either trust my process or you dont.

I for one have never played with you as far as I know so you explaining your reads to other players even when you've played with them would be helpful to me. And quicker for you to do that than for me to read through a bunch of your other games.

[imaginality]

Hi I'm here. Sorry, work got in the way yesterday.

I think the whole Wisdom v people not understanding Wisdom's point about KTT stoush is a bunch of noise. Which I would say is a little scummy of people engaged in it as it's just unnecessary distraction. But that's only a teeny factor in this game, would be more significant n a smaller game. Anyhow, enough on that front.

I think KTT is more likely town than Titus though. Fruit thrower or whatever seems like a usefully useless PR for scum to claim. Claiming it and saying it got blocked seems like a reasonable move for a bold scum to do.

It also seems that Titus can evolve but who would throw fruit instead of evolving?

Also like I see how it fits with the Pokemon theme but are there actual Pokemon that throw fruit? Or just the trainers?

VOTE: Titus


Not gonna lie I was close to replacing out overnight due to game pace. But the Gypyx flip (and Woolax, and ssbm being town) reassures me that my more gut based playstyle this game is working out for my reads so I'm sticking around to see how that goes for me.

[imaginality]

What I read for is not something one changes between games. It can change based on time commitment - which is why I can be softer when that happens - but this doesnt seem to be an issue here especially since that other game was happening the same time as this one.

This point is largely tangential but Wisdom was eliminated from the other game (29 Sep NZ time) before this one started (3 Oct NZ time).

Largely tangential because Wisdom isn't claiming anything to do with time commitment. But possibly not completely tangential because I wonder why you didn't check that detail before making the above point.

[imaginality]

If KTT is scum, Pooky is a townlock.

how do u reach this conclusion

He has a no bussing meta,

~I

Does this meta apply to all days? In Owner's Market Blitz mastina only mentioned it as a D1 meta.

[imaginality]

I do think newbscum could be like that but it's hard for me to look past Skrew calling out Gypyx in twilight

On the one hand I think in this game with PRs aplenty, scum calling out scum in twilight seems unlikely.

On the other hand it's a good time to make a point which can easily be moved past the next day given the start of the next day is gonna be busy with night action discussion etc. And it maybe have seemed like a point someone else would likely make if Skrew didn't so why not be the one to do so.

So I think it's not as strong a town point for Valkyrie's slot as you think it is.

That said, I actually had a slight town read on Skrew yesterday. I think Valkyrie is perhaps too easy a target today. So the fact there doesn't seem to be all that much pressure from possible scum* on Valkyrie could indicate scum see it as a bad wagon to be on when Valkyrie flips town. And conversely I could see scum taking the chance to bus if Valkyrie were scum.

So I also lean town on Valkyrie but for different reasons to you.

*mastina I think is conf town, not so much because of mod error but because of Gypyx role similarity. Which means my read of her D1 was wrong.

[imaginality]

this game i'm also pr (as i assume everyone is) but my role isn't as interesting

Didnt you say that we shouldn't lim you for your role?

[the votes on T3 are] 100% warranted and i'd be a good poe lim if not for my role

[imaginality]

I'm interested in this progression:

Can you explain both your T3 and Imaginality reads? I think T3 seems really townie and how is Imaginality different here than in OMB? Wrt Cakez, he’s still totally up in the air for me.

~I

Slots I’m currently the most suss on (in no particular order) are T3, Valkrey, Dwelee, not crazy about imaginality but associatives look the best but he just seems lazy here compared with OMB where he was a total tryhard.

~I

Up to 1128 I'd made 10 posts. Between then and 2832 I made 16. And if anything I'd say the second batch were more useful than the first.

So, I'm a bit suspicious of this progression from 'same as OMB' to 'different to OMB'. Like the 'lazy' accusation coming out here rather than earlier seems like it could be deliberate rather than authentic. Why did your read of my play shift between these two posts?

(That said, as I mentioned earlier in the game, I'm posting differently here than OMB and the 'lazier' accusation isn't inaccurate in and of itself. It's not due to being scum (I think I'm more active as scum if anything), it's due to game pace plus a little less free time now than then, and the combined impact on my ability to dig into this game. I think if I'm still in this game as the number of remaining players reduces my playstyle and influence on the game will start to resemble OMB more. So right now, I'm fine with you saying I seem lazier than OMB. My question is with the timing of that remark.)

[imaginality]

Chsnging my reads is NIA and even slightly town indicative for me - particularly with slots I’m not extremely confident on and you’re one of those slots.

I’ve also gone from null to strong town on Milo. Is that also suspicious for you?
~I

I don't care that you changed your read in and of itself. It's that the reason you gave for changing it in the later post applies as much if not more to my play at the time of your earlier post.

I've also agreed a couple of times my play this game isn't my normal town play. It's not my normal scum play either (see the just finished 8-ball with wolves game).

Re. T3 I have no recollection of your reasons for your reads on him. I can look back, if you changed your read for a reason that applied at the time you gave the earlier read then yeah I will call that out as suspicious too. To clarify I have no idea whether or not that's the case, I'll look back today.

Independent of that though, reading the T3 iso of today's posts gives me a different vibe to his D1 posts. The posts today fit with the change from D1 vs 'we're two scum down without a paddle' vibe I imagine scum are feeling today. I'm happy to sign up to this wagon.

VOTE: T3

Pedit: what SirCakez said

[imaginality]

Well please wait to hear from Milobird before any action.

On that note I want DKKoba posting today, too; we shouldn't end the day before they've chimed in here.

What about meee? You forgot meee.


On the bus driver discussion, this misses the point:

No one knew I could cop check and no one knew I would target Dwlee.

If there is a bus driver who targeted your target they could have done so for any number of reasons.

That said, I agree with mastina:

Spoiler: mastina

VOTE: Dwlee99

(For the record: I'm not

sure

Dwlee is scum here, obviously, but between Gamma claiming that the rolestop I got N1 is his, not Dwlee's, Dwlee claiming a rolestop variant that I did not get, and the guilty claim, I genuinely believe that just on policy, we need to eliminate Dwlee. Dwlee's not lockscum but for Dwlee to be town requires a series of events that are incredibly unfortunate and unlikely. Two rolestoppers both in the game with different modifiers, targeting me, on top of a third player evolving into a rolestopper, on top of whatever would cause a wrong result from the investigation on Dwlee. It's not impossible and if Dwlee flips town we'll know that it did in fact happen in spite of how incredibly improbable they were, but by following Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is Dwlee as scum and anything other than Dwlee-scum is less simple.)

The combination of Dwlee targeting mastina after another rolestopper did the same, plus someone bussing Dwlee so TIL's result was wrong, doesn't seem likely.
I don't know if I'd go as far as to say 'incredibly improbable'. For one thing, with multiple investigative roles it doesn't seem a stretch to imagine there being a bus driver in this game and I remember Dwlee was under some suspicion end of D1 so if Dwlee is town it wouldn't have been a bad idea for scum to bus and hope to frame Dwlee. I just don't think that's

as likely

as Dwlee being scum.

I am kinda interested in hearing the clarification mastina sought about whether she'd get the full power with all conditions. Just because I don't see the scum motive for Dwlee to lie about only being able to target scum if they knew it wouldn't match what mastina got.

But TIL's result is enough to justify us limming Dwlee here even without that clarification, I think.

VOTE: Dwlee99

On Critter/TIL:

Faking a gated investigative role in this game, in general, doesn't seem as risky/foolish as it would be in most games. Perhaps especially as it seems like there are multiple gated investigative roles and multiple blocking type roles.
(a guessing game who's the lying nerfed cop among say four variously nerfed investigative roles is less risky than who's the lying cop among two normal cops).

That said, while I intensely dislike their aggro arrogant play style I don't think TIL is lying in this situation. 1 for 1 seems a bad trade for scum and it is 1 for 1 here because if Dwlee flips town I don't think the hypothetical bus driver theories would be enough to save TIL from being limmed tomorrow.

I think multiple scum are among Dwlee, Titus, and Milobird.

Over the next day I'm going to focus on trying to get a read on the following players cos I currently have no idea about them all and I think if there's scum not in the above three it's among these:

KTT, chowchow, WhemeStar

To varying degrees I lean town on everyone else.

[imaginality]

I assume that firebringer cleared cakez with the loyal part, which bypasses godfather

Actually, now we've seen firebringer's role card, I'm suspicious of assuming this.

From the wording of firebringer's power:

"This move will fail when targetting someone that

appears as

Team Rocket"

To me that sounds like there is still the possibility SirCakez is GF?

I know Firebringer said SirCakez is conftown so maybe he already asked the mod this but:

@Mod: if Firebringer's power was used to target a godfather, would he have succeeded in neighbourizing them, or failed to do so?

[imaginality]

So while I haven't yet reread the players I mentioned I did reread Dwlee (was looking at timing of when they mentioned targeting mastina vs when DkKoba did).

And Dwlee is 100% lying scum:

Yeah you get a whole ass new role when you evolve

I did not so that's weird

quote="In post 3486 , Dwlee99"]I gave mastina a 1-shot scum rolestopper so unless you think that's a scum role you're full of shit on whatever you're claiming[/quote]

He claims he evolved N1 and also claims he targeted mastina N1.

[imaginality]

So while I haven't yet reread the players I mentioned I did reread Dwlee (was looking at timing of when they mentioned targeting mastina vs when DkKoba did).

And Dwlee is 100% lying scum:

Yeah you get a whole ass new role when you evolve

I did not so that's weird

I gave mastina a 1-shot scum rolestopper so unless you think that's a scum role you're full of shit on whatever you're claiming

He claims he evolved N1 and also claims he targeted mastina N1.

[imaginality]

*they, sorry

[imaginality]

DkKoba did you target mastina N1 or evolve N1 or both?

[imaginality]

I don’t understand your Milo read however. I was suss on them D1 but I liked them yesterday.

~I

Earlier you said you were "null" on them D1 not "suss"? Which is it?

I also prefer their play since D1 to before. But I still have one or two doubts eg. the "hope you enjoy that tightening noose scum" way Milo announced the friendly neighbour result seemed a bit performative.

And here, where Milobird agrees with Gamma calling Milobird conftown. Unless I'm misunderstanding how Titus's friendly neighbour ability works, I don't see why it clears Milobird to report receiving that message from Titus? And if Milo's not conftown then not correcting Gamma on that is also mildly suspicious.

@Bird No Titus sent you the thing you received
I'm just pretty sure the mod forgot to remember Titus was unblockable and my action was flagged as getting in the way
So whilst KTT is unfortunately not conftown and might not be able to ever we at least have you and Titus conftown

And yeah we might be able to just PoE this shit

This is highly town. Please take this ticket to my INNOCENT CHILD concert.
SirCakez has the other one.
And Titus has theirs.

-Bell

On the other hand I do recognise it means Titus must be conftown (barring the unlikely scenario Titus and Milo are scum buddies, which seems like too risky a gambit).

And that contradiction Milo just caught WhemeStar in about being Legendary seems like a genuinely good catch - if WhemeStar is scum I'll move Milo to my 'clearly town' bucket.

---

On a different note just to clear up something you were arguing with me about earlier:

Chsnging my reads is NIA and even slightly town indicative for me - particularly with slots I’m not extremely confident on and you’re one of those slots.

I’ve also gone from null to strong town on Milo. Is that also suspicious for you?

~I

My point wasn't about changing your read in and of itself. It was specifically that the reason you gave for changing your read (my play style here vs OMB) applied at least as much at the time of your earlier read. Had you given a different reason e.g. 'post 1224 is scummy' then that would have seemed a more justifiable reason to change your read on me.

I don't know, it made my tinfoil paranoia wonder if you were trying to play nice with me early D1 based on knowing I played well in OMB but then decided I could be a good mislim here so started throwing some shade my way.

But it's just one minor thing and otherwise I feel good about your play. Anyhow just wanted to clarify what my thought process was there.

[imaginality]

Wow no NK. This must be winnable by POE. I don't mind being limmed as part of that if we have/can create enough genuinely confirmed town to win anyhow.

Is this a good time for mass claiming or too early?

I still don't think Wisdom is scum though. :/

[imaginality]

Haha wow I'd forgotten that. And forgotten Pooky replaced Ralts for that matter.

[imaginality]

On Pooky, the jailkeeping and no kill seems like it should be sufficient reason to lim him today given we have numbers to play with, almost regardless of who if anyone Gamma rolestopped.

But I do want to hear from SirCakez first, who said Pooky would have to be throwing the game if he's scum:

Guys haven't read I have pretty strong reason to think Pooky is town so can we wagon somewhere else

cakez you better not be derping
I was feeling really good about Pooky scum

It is something significant
Like if Pooky is scum he gamethrew

Also yes Pooky is still town he's not town because of a check so GF is irrelevant

Wait, which one do you know is town,
Pooky or wisdom?

-Bell

Pooky
It is mechanic

[imaginality]

If Pooky literally never buses his buddies D1 doesn't that cross into a trust tell? Like instead of "I'm always town if I say I am" it's "I'm always town if I say 'vote X' and X flips scum D1"?

Ugh. I just don't believe scum target TIL which would mean hoping Gamma targeted someone else. When scum have presumably used Perish Song on someone. Like, who else would Dwlee realistically have used Perish Song on?

And if there's a town power that could direct the scum kill onto Pooky surely someone would have claimed that?

So VOTE: Pooky

Oh and I agree about it being time to mass claim.

I'm Girafarig. My power is Psybeam. I can target a player and find out if they have killed. I have two shots of that. I targeted Milobird N2 and was told my action failed. I haven't used my second shot yet.

[imaginality]

Ugh that feels like a safe fakeclaim if i ever saw one
Claiming targeting the rolestopped person and no other results

You're right. I completely see how this claim looks scummy. I can't go back and change my target though.

I thought about claiming when Gamma hinted at blocking someone after N2 but didn't want to out my power then.

[imaginality]

I investigated Milo because I was suspicious of that slot and it seemed like others weren't so much so I figured I wouldn't be doubling up on someone else's choice. And given lack of suspicion on them it seemed like if they were part of the scum team they might be the ones who'd carry out the kill.

I didn't use it last night because I thought it might be worth saving til later game - we'd just limmed scum and I wasn't a likely NK target so there wasn't any rush.

I assume scum fake claims wouldn't be investigative roles in a game with a bunch of town investigatives but who knows.

There are enough roleblocking powers around also for it to maybe seem balanced like half the investigative shots likely get blocked. Plus there's a godfather.

I claimed now because we have enough claims already and enough advantage that we can win best by deciding as a town what to do compared to keeping remaining roles secret longer.

[imaginality]

Subject: Mini Theme 2217 | Owner's market blitz | Over

I don't like popcorn but I'm fine with going first.

D1 Misty put $300 on cop and did not get it.
D2 $500 on watcher and got it.

N2 did not act.
N3 watched Smoke & Mirrors, no visits.

S&M should choose the rest of the claim order, I think.

Pooky and me were S&M.

Anyway Mastina rightly jumped on him for this claim because A) we weren’t the optimal target to visit, Marcistar was and B) he waited until N3.

~I

Exactly. I was in that game, why would I claim this as scum?

[imaginality]

It also seems that Titus can evolve but who would throw fruit instead of evolving?

It’s weird he knows you can’t act and evolve at the same time given his claim

My role mentions nothing about evolving. I asked the mod and confirmed I can't evolve.

[imaginality]

I investigated Milo because I was suspicious of that slot and it seemed like others weren't so much so I figured I wouldn't be doubling up on someone else's choice. And given lack of suspicion on them it seemed like if they were part of the scum team they might be the ones who'd carry out the kill.

I didn't use it last night because I thought it might be worth saving til later game - we'd just limmed scum and I wasn't a likely NK target so there wasn't any rush.

I assume scum fake claims wouldn't be investigative roles in a game with a bunch of town investigatives but who knows.

There are enough roleblocking powers around also for it to maybe seem balanced like half the investigative shots likely get blocked. Plus there's a godfather.

I claimed now because we have enough claims already and enough advantage that we can win best by deciding as a town what to do compared to keeping remaining roles secret longer.

Did you just perspective slip with this?

VOTE: Imaginality

~I

My point is, my claim is not a likely fake claim for scum to be given if there's a bunch of other investigative roles around?

[imaginality]

Claim the pokemon then lmao?

I did

[imaginality]

It also seems that Titus can evolve but who would throw fruit instead of evolving?

It’s weird he knows you can’t act and evolve at the same time given his claim

My role mentions nothing about evolving. I asked the mod and confirmed I can't evolve.

Yes, but you knew the two can’t be done at the same time

Not something I’d think to ask as a Pokémon who can’t evolve- I did ask night one because we did evolve.

Ninja-
He’s girafarig koba

I didn't ask if I can act and evolve at the same time. I just confirmed I couldn't evolve.

Not being able to act and evolve as an active ability at the same time is literally listed in the game rules.

[imaginality]

"As an active action, evolution may not be performed alongside another action by the player."

[imaginality]

That’s not a great answer. It’s a really strange thing to say, especially the “but who knows” part. When I was defending my role yesterday, that never even entered my head. It just reads kind’ve tmi to me.

Your D1 claim was on rolestopped slot, so inconclusive and you claim no further actions.

N2 not D1.

My point is like, there are so many investigative roles that a. It seems kinda mean for the mods to give scum an investigative fakeclaim and b. At this point in the game, if they had such a fakeclaim, would they use it compared to claim something else?

I mean if I'm scum there's a bajillion better fake claims I could have made

[imaginality]

There must be some games where it would have been more beneficial for Pooky to bus scum D1. If it's just a case that he's not needed to do far, then why do people place so much weight on it? "Pooky has never bussed D1" feels fine to me in a way which "Pooky never busses D1" doesn't.

[imaginality]

Oh cool add Dwlee99 to Gypyx and Ralts on the pile of "scum shiftily sniffing for stuff to stir up so as to subtly scatter some sneaky suspicion on seemingly stand-up citizens"

As the person who started brain celll wagon I like the gypyx wagon more

Why?

I find this sequence of posts interesting. Idk why you would ask Wheme that question when you yourself had already expressed suspicion on gypyx.

~I

To see if Wheme was bussing

[imaginality]

Why Milobird, the slot which by meta is one of the towniest in the game? Did imaginality expect that a super duper secrit deepscum that was way out of their scum range would make the nightkill and risk being caught when they are super duper secrit deepscum that is way out of their established scum range?

My reasons for suspecting Milo were stated in #197 and #1589. It's fine that your read is different but it shouldn't be a surprise I targeted Milo given the combination of my suspicion plus the sense Milo was being overlooked in the discussion.

[imaginality]

There must be some games where it would have been more beneficial for Pooky to bus scum D1. If it's just a case that he's not needed to do far, then why do people place so much weight on it? "Pooky has never bussed D1" feels fine to me in a way which "Pooky never busses D1" doesn't.

You continuing to push Pooky isn’t doing you any favours. He’s practically confitown for the one shot vig thing.

~I

Clearly not everyone agrees with you.

[imaginality]

I just feel there's something off when people are treating it 100% confirmation of Pooky town. If other people are loudly proclaiming this every game it happens then Pooky not advertising it himself is irrelevant. Effectively town's getting an extra N1 cop inno result in a quarter or so of the games Pooky's in.

I don't know, it just annoys me we've gone from about to lim Pooky to about to lim me just because of this tell that everyone treats as gospel.

[imaginality]

You're throwing away an extra investigative shot because you think I'm dumb enough to make a dumb fakeclaim as scum.

It's a good thing we've already nixed enough scum we should be able to win even if there are sneaky scum going long.

I ask again, why would I make a dumb fake claim as scum?

If you think there are too many investigative roles, and think my claim is bad, look at TIL who took about 20 posts to revise their claim before settling on it, and who is definitely not as conf town as they proclaim to be.

[imaginality]

VOTE: imaginality

Better things to do with my weekend. I'd defend myself harder if the game were closer but if you lose this for us from here it's on you.

[imaginality]

I checked. My role checks for kills rather than alignment. GF would appear guilty if they conducted the kill.
Vig would appear guilty too but with the vig(gers) having claimed now, that wouldn't have mattered for my next action.

[imaginality]

My paranoia bat worries TIL and Pooky have both snuck into our conf town sheep pen. Cos I reread the other 'not cleared' players I was unsure of and I don't see two scum among them. So I'm pretty sure at least one of our sheep has fangs.

[imaginality]

I mean Mala didnt claim n3 action but since nobody claimed a hood im assuming she did nothing
Other than that nothing
Reason I asked 4513 is in case hes a supersaint or something

If I'm town I'm not super saint. If I'm scum it shouldn't matter if someone dies hammering me.

Since I am town though VOTE: unvote to make it harder for this mislim to go through.

[imaginality]

Non-(GF scum) or non-GF scum?
I recounted and SirCakez is right. I thought so when I hammered.
Would've been helpful to have had some of these 'I think imaginality is town' voices piping up before I hammered but oh well

[imaginality]

Pooky you are amazing! You had to put so much effort into the final two gamedays to keep up with Milobird's posting, and I was impressed you managed to conjure up sufficient reasons to doubt the mech guilty.

Cakez, don't feel too bad - if you read back on the dead thread pretty much no one guessed it was Pooky until I pointed out the mech guilty.

On the day I went down I felt there was a good chance I'd get jailed/blocked so it was better for me to go down attacking Pooky who everyone was saying was conftown because of the vig shot.

With my D1 post, yeah I thought people might second guess the idea I'd name 3 scum and no town, though I also thought the post might not matter either way as I expected I'd outlast my teammates.

Thanks for modding, SS/Manatee, I'm glad I stuck with this game despite the frenzied pace.

[imaginality]

I nearly targeted Pooky with my Confuse power just in case of tracker/watcher. With the way the other actions went, that really would have conftowned Pooky since Wheme would have seen me target Pooky to explain the no kill.

I know we ended up winning this game but it felt like there was a LOT of investigative power on town's side this game? Wheme, TIL, Wisdom, Firebringer, probably others I'm forgetting...?