Shakespeare uPick | End

[GuiltyLion]

hi everyone, both familiar faces and new! I'm excited to play with you all

VOTE: Tamora's Angel
why no vote?

[GuiltyLion]

Vote: Galron

good vote

If it's a good vote, why didn't you join it? absent that this kinda just feels like buddying LLD. I like that Dunn called this out as well

Hello, I am excited to play a fun mafia game with all of you

~Spiffy

Anyone find any scum yet?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!!

~Spiffy

have i ever played with u spif? i dont remember if i have, but what i do think is that these post have bad vibes!@@!#@!%

:/ I didn't get any bad vibes from those posts

not a fan of your entrance so far here marci/gamma

[GuiltyLion]

anyone else having trouble parsing the shakespeare english?

which posts specifically?

[GuiltyLion]

Bell, Luke, Pav, Dunn all feel towniest to me so far

I like that Tamora's Angel gave a Pav townread but not enough to feel comfortable about a townerad there

VOTE: off the hook

I don't have especially strong scumvibes but claiming to support a vote without sheeping it + shading Bowser Jr slot for posts I find fundamentally NAI + townreading Luke & Pav makes me think my vote is best here

[GuiltyLion]

I think I wasn't clear there, TA townreading Pav is not enough for me to have a townread on TA, TA's read didn't impact my Pav read

[GuiltyLion]

I'm townreading Pav, I said I have him as town in 103. I don't think scum is as likely to make such comments about keeping Juliet to endgame (92 especially seems to suggest he wasn't even considering that the slot could be NK'd)

my original vote on TA wasn't factored into my reads at all but yes I did want to say my thoughts on them since I was moving my vote off of them

[GuiltyLion]

Bowser Jr., Off The Hook, Child of Fairies, Skybird

Are these scumreads?

If they are, why vote COF over Off the Hook?

[GuiltyLion]

Vote: Galron

good vote

If it's a good vote, why didn't you join it? absent that this kinda just feels like buddying LLD. I like that Dunn called this out as well

yeah im totally trying to buddy lld glad u noticed bestie.

hes also saying now he thinks galrons a fine vote but i do wanna wait a bit, i feel like if galrons scum itll become obv, when i saw scumgalron last he was basically not solving at all : DD (i think our efforts are better used elsewhere for now, and he'll become an obv solve given time)

i wonder what this is...

if you're acting like it's a sufficient explanation, it's not
a) you had to be pushed by Dunn to post it
b) why will it become obvious if Galron is scum? what experiences with him is that based on?
c) you say your "efforts" are better used elsewhere, but you haven't pushed anything or used your vote, so I'm not seeing a lot of effort elsewhere that's preventing you from making a "good vote"

Hello, I am excited to play a fun mafia game with all of you

~Spiffy

Anyone find any scum yet?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!!

~Spiffy

have i ever played with u spif? i dont remember if i have, but what i do think is that these post have bad vibes!@@!#@!%

:/ I didn't get any bad vibes from those posts

oh really..? do you mind explaining..? cause to me they seem a bit over excitable so they seem like they

could

be faked.

Pretty much any first post in the game

could

be faked, I didn't grok why you felt those in particular are more likely than any other post. Do you think scum!Spiff is more likely to use a bunch of question marks/exclamation points to act excited yet town!Spiff is not?

VOTE: off the hook

I don't have especially strong scumvibes but claiming to support a vote without sheeping it + shading Bowser Jr slot for posts I find fundamentally NAI + townreading Luke & Pav makes me think my vote is best here

why do u think our townreads on luke & pav are a reason to vote us?
and i wanna know where tf did we townread luke???! i dont remember doing it myself, if anything i remember slightly shading him, and i dont see anything from gamma saying he did... or did u just make this up to push ur point along

the bit about townreads on pav and Luke was referring to my own townreads on them. they both RVS'd you so I figured it was possible you already had multiple votes from other townies and wanted to add fuel to the fire. Though I actually did forget that Pav had moved his vote off of you by that point, I had just gone back and checked VC 1.2

You're really quick here to use your misinterpretation of my post (which admittedly was phrased poorly as it was late and I was tired) to accuse me of making things up, instead of thinking that you might be misunderstanding me instead.

[GuiltyLion]

I get lots of goodfeels from DV's 130, I had the same issues with COF's 100 (which was what prompted my 102), and while my question to DV was meant more in the spirit of "why vanity vote instead of joining my wagon" I totally resonate with his summary of the bad vibe from COF.

DV's follow up 161 is also a super townie post

VOTE: Child of Fairies

I also had a thought that if COF is scum, he might be more likely to say that I "seem fine" if I'm currently pushing on a town!OTS. may be a bit too much of a reach so I'ma sleep on it but the idea has taken hold in my head

[GuiltyLion]

Ceph & Bowser Jr, can you give me a reason why you're townreading the Gamma/Marci hydra? doesn't have to be a long explanation or anything but I really don't feel any townvibes from either of them yet and I'm wondering what I'm missing

[GuiltyLion]

I HAVE NO READS RIGHT NOW AHHHHH

Im probably going to be very lazy this game and thats sad

Votes on me are lazy

This wagon doesn’t really give me any info though :/

wheme, real talk, do you actually feel like the wagon on you can't give you any info? I know there hasn't been a lot of discussion around it but it should also be the one wagon you know for sure is on town and something you can engage with directly (instead of lawyering on another player's behalf, or waiting for them to explain themselves).

I also don't like the inconsistency between complaining about lack of info/reads and saying you are going to play lazy / accusing others of being lazy, and I'd appreciate it if you efforted harder cause right now you're basically just acting as a lightning rod for everyone to vote without much consequence

[GuiltyLion]

also, UNVOTE:

Don't want an early hammer, and my initial vote on this slot was a joke vote.

what's your current read on Wheme

I realllyyyy don't like that you unvoted without voting elsewhere, all that does is kill pressure/momentum on wheme. especially given you're not chasing another scumread instead, by not voting you're failing to generate any information

[GuiltyLion]

You’re a towel

VOTE: Bowser

I enjoyed that

We now resume our regularly scheduled programming

VOTE: Wheme

what changed between a single post by neither of these people?

I also feel this post is more likely scum, completely missed the context of Pav's Bowser vote and didn't bother to look into it when asking Pav about it

[GuiltyLion]

@GL, my apologies for calling you a slot. I couldn't remember your pronouns.

I call people slots all the time, I just see it as a game term, hadn't considered whether that could be received as dehumanizing or not no apologies necessary on my end at least

[GuiltyLion]

your explicitly calling out that you agree with her feels unearned because she hasn’t expressed an opinion to be agreed with outside of what we can assume from her votes.

I don't really vibe with this, I feel that quite frequently as town I can look at a post like 252 and send that I can understand what the person's reason for voting is. at the very least, you can assume the argument is "this post is a scum post" and agree/disagree with that

[GuiltyLion]

What votes do you think give information when it comes to other people? I racked up a lot of naked votes fast that can come from either alignment so not much to be learned there IMO

No I agree there's not a ton that can

currently

be learned, but my point is rather you could be trying instead of just complaining about it. like Bowser left their vote on you for quite a long time and just moved off you to DV, we could be asking them about that and if their read on you has developed at all

[GuiltyLion]

because I am fully aware that nothing is stopping me from also asking Bowser that question about their Wheme read, so if I had said "you" alone I'd feel like a hypocrite even though I really just want Wheme to do the work of interrogating his own wagon since idk if he's town or not

I don't really vibe with the spirit of your question, like do you think if I were scum I'd be more/less likely to say "we"? kinda feels like a semantic nitpick, but at the same time I've seen you do this in both our recent past games together so I get that it's just your style

[GuiltyLion]

I could probably join a Bowser wagon, I like the main voters on it and I feel Bowser's reasoning on DV is convoluted in an uncomfortable way

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Bowser Jr

I have greater confidence in my scumread on COF but I don't have any real reasons to townread Bowser Jr and this wagon is better than the Wheme wagon

[GuiltyLion]

Hot Takes:
Pav is Town
Icebox is Town
Bowser Jr. is Town

Guilty Lion is giving me mixed signals - I keep seeing things that give me a gut town reaction followed by posts that give me a gut scum reaction.

DeasVail is Scum
Off the Hook is maybe Scum - I wish Marci was posting more as either alignment, because I feel like she can both obvtown and obvscum if she just goes for it.

Child of Fairies is confusing, but has been confusing to me in every game I have encountered them (including a game where they replaced me on a rep out, so while reading along I knew their alignment for a fact)

I have very little thoughts on anyone else yet.

couple thoughts for you Luke

first - I don't agree with your scumread on DV at all - his reasoning seems genuine and transparent to me and I don't sense that he's playing with any kind of agenda. what is it in his posts that you can't see as town-indicative? I can understand Bowser Jr scumreading him (assuming Bowser Jr is town) because DV was pushing their own slot, but the reasons you gave for suspecting him are:

1) his early pushback on your reasoning for your marci scumread
2) saying he "agreed" with LLD

I already voiced my opinion on 2 in 281 and I thought DV's response to you in 255 made sense and deserves a reply. I don't think your reasons to vote him are as convincing as you seem to believe they are, and that disconnect doesn't make me feel good about you.

second - this last bit on COF caught my attention. You aren't committing to a read in any direction, and you didn't mention whether those previous games were COF-town, COF-scum, or a mix of both - what did you want us to take from you calling COF confusing? do you support a wagon there?

[GuiltyLion]

Wait gif is in this game?

Ohh icebox nice

Wheme wagon is dying, but this is another point for town!Wheme - unless he's faking this thought process completely, I think scum would be more likely to pay attention to who is in the game as a hydra than town would. This would also probably spew Icebox as town on a scum!Wheme flip (though I don't think anyone suspects icebox), and generally scum want to keep as many players potentially aligned with them as possible.

@Skybird, since you asked for reasons to townread Wheme

[GuiltyLion]

I could go with Pav, Icebox, GuiltyLion, Skybird as town. LLD can be town for the day. Same with Wheme.

Ceph I am warming up to adding to a townblock but not quite there.

I can't get there with Lukewarm.

why is Skybird town?

[GuiltyLion]

I'd say COF and Skybird has scum in it.

This was the contested read for me and spiffs

I didn’t like when they asked for clarification from Pavoski about the votes. I felt like it showed them not trying to pay attention which looks weird from someone trying to solve

But spiffs also missed it so no clue. He liked the same post I didn’t like.

Ninja-
Heh, mentioning the same part

I'm thinking a lot about this post, dissonance over this point/read on COF strikes me as something that would be quite subtle to fake as scum. Especially since I don't think I can find Spiff mentioning anything in thread about COF or liking that post - I only quick skimmed the ISO but I don't see it there, someone please shout if I missed it.

Regardless, I'm going to go back to COF, I think it's a good wagon and I think COF completely missing the context/joke in Pav's Bowser vote is probably the most indicative thing so far. Townies don't tend to misunderstand/miss things like that, whereas scum that's coasting and more focused on finding inconsistencies in people's ISOs or avenues to scumread people can be prone to making such an error. Kinda reminds me of my last scum game where I snip quoted a post and asked the player for a read that fae had given in the very post that I quoted

VOTE: Child of Fairies

[GuiltyLion]

Re:the bolded #1, this seems to imply that town only build scum reads on people pushing them, which I am sure that you don't mean (right?), but I am not sure how else to that that other then "they are not pushing you, so you should not be scum reading them" which is pretty meh...

Re:the bolded #2, that sure feels like "if your reads are not the same as mine, I am gonna consider scum reading you" which is also pretty meh... Or possibly, "if you don't have a rock solid foundation on your day 1 scum read, then I might start thinking you are scum" which is also meh....

So all in all, not a fan of this post my friend.

I don't think you could have misrepped me harder if you tried, lol

1) nowhere did I say "only town build scumreads on people pushing them", what I said was more akin to "I can understand why a townie in their shoes would suspect DV". I didn't say that made them NOT scum, just that I could see it coming from town

2) I mean, if you want to pretend I said those things, go ahead, but that's absolutely not what I said. Where I am coming from is DV is one of my most solid townreads in the game at the moment, and you are suspecting that slot for reasons that strike me as notably flimsy. If you can't understand why that would lead to a decaying read on your own slot, especially when you try to throw it back at me when I give you a genuine reach out, well...

[GuiltyLion]

but also 2)have seen from confined town CoF

actually can you link me to the confirmed town COF ISOs you're thinking of though? If they're historically a careless player (in the sense of missing obvious jokes/context) then that might weaken my read

[GuiltyLion]

Side note for Guilty Lion, what in 255 do you think deserved my response? There is still no read on the slot coming from them. Just "I am conflcted" with out any of the reasons that make them conflicted - what made them think it could be town, what makes them think they could be scum? Idk, I just know that they are conflicted. And its like, here I was talking about trying to sort them, they think my reasons are bad, but there was still no hint of "well did you consider X reason to think that they could be [town/scum]"

I think you're framing things here like you wanted DV to give an updated read with deeper reasoning on the marci slot, but I see DV's response as more of a challenge to you as to why DV needs to be townreading marci in order to critique your reasons to scumread her. This bit specifically:

I don't townread the slot, but I don't need to townread the slot to disagree with your reasons for scumreading them

Do you disagree with this? Did this help you understand why town!DV might write a post like 209? You didn't respond to it and still haven't even when breaking down this post. You say you didn't feel DV was trying to sort you, but it looks quite a lot to me like he was.

I also think you're exaggerating the disconnect between what you refer to as "Steps 1,2,3". I think both the original "I agree with LLD" and the Step 1 post 344 read like attempts at humor, while there's a consistent train of thought underneath that he did feel he understood LLD about 252.

idk if we're interpreting his tone differently or you just don't seem to grok an attitude of "I think I understand why this player scumreads this post without them explicitly saying it" (something I feel pretty often when I play), but I just don't see your case as all that indicative. It's not hard at all to imagine those posts coming from town, I'm not sure if you genuinely can't or aren't trying to.

[GuiltyLion]

Galron, why did you case COF in 448 after you had already voted them? Woosh-gate in particular was already discussed by several players in thread.

It feels kinda performative, like regardless of your alignment you decided to vote COF first without thinking, but 448 rings as if you want to make sure the rest of us know you are evaluating their slot. Gives me "tell" instead of "show" vibes

[GuiltyLion]

quick hot take reads update

Ceph and LLD are becoming decent D1 townreads for me, not that there's been much if any discussion on wagoning them but I don't think I'd like to elim either currently.

OTH too I think I'm coming around on.

TA I don't understand his/her Skybird townread but feels generally townish (hey look Luke it's me disagreeing with a read without scumreading him/her )

Wisdom and Juliet I don't have any reasons to scumread but more engagement from them would definitely help.

wagons I'm fine with right now is like {COF, Skybird, Galron, Lukewarm}, but I'm really waffley on Luke and Galron. Skybird's definitely flying under the radar too much at this point unless she starts coming in with some fire takes and reads

I need to look through that game Luke sent me, I think I did notice in skimming it that COF missed somebody's claim so TBD on if it changes my mind at all when I have time to do a proper deep dive, which is not now unfortunately

[GuiltyLion]

He is your number one top town read, but I still don't know why other then "he seems genuine" but that is apparently enough for you to come out and hard defend him, and even go so far as to scum read people for having a scum read on them. But I am not seeing the work that got you there. What has DV done that not just makes you think he is town, but to think that no town players would be scum reading him right now? Because that is the stance it feels like you are taking.

Again here you are trying to misrep me by turning my points into ridiculously generalized claims that I never made. The last two sentences of your post are absurd. Not even 5 posts ago in my ISO, 421, I was explaining to you how I could imagine how Bowser Jr could scumread DV and still be town.

I have been repeatedly trying to engage with you why I see his posts as genuine and your interpretations as uncharitable. You just don't want to listen, and you're making that clear

[GuiltyLion]

Again here you are trying to misrep me by turning my points into ridiculously generalized claims that I never made. The last two sentences of your post are absurd. Not even 5 posts ago in my ISO, 421, I was explaining to you how I could imagine how Bowser Jr could scumread DV and still be town.

to add to this, it is the way

you in particular

are scumreading DV that I take issues with, your reasons and your projected confidence in them. That does that mean "no town player could scumread DV"

[GuiltyLion]

This bit specifically:

I don't townread the slot, but I don't need to townread the slot to disagree with your reasons for scumreading them

Do you disagree with this? Did this help you understand why town!DV might write a post like 209? You didn't respond to it and still haven't even when breaking down this post. You say you didn't feel DV was trying to sort you, but it looks quite a lot to me like he was.

Luke you also ignored this and I don't remember you ignoring engagement like this from our last game together - might be just a function of your V/LA, but this was a real question I wanted to hear an answer to

[GuiltyLion]

I think I buy the claim

VOTE: Skybird

[GuiltyLion]

To be frank, that point by DV and your follow up point feel alienated from what has been bothering me about DV.

To answer the questions asked of me:
No, I do not disagree with that sentence, but I am not sure what part of that sentence is even supposed to sway my read on them since it is not rooted in the same thing that bothered me.

maybe this is where the disconnect is. I don't really grasp why you're bothered by 209. You say you're bothered because he wasn't trying to sort OTH, but I have been trying to tell you that I don't think he was trying to sort OTH during that post sequence (or that he necessarily needs to at all), I think he was trying to suss out

your

reasoning in calling them a scumread, and you seem to want to wholly discount that.

[GuiltyLion]

GL, you keep saying that you are trying to genuinely engage with me, but it feels like you are approaching me specifically with the goal of getting me to change my mind. I feel like I have pretty clearly outlined what pinged me about their posts, and you are just coming back with "well, it is possible for those posts to come from town too," but it is pretty rare to look at a post and say "that would actually never come from town ever."

And like, who do you even want me to pivot towards? To be real, the easiest way to get my vote to move is to find something scummier and point at it loudly., but I am not getting that.

I feel like you just keep repeatedly telling me that there is a town way to read their posts, and then slowly dropping your read on me because that does not change my read. But, I never said that there was zero chance that town wrote those posts. I said that I find it more likely that a scum mindset leads to those posts then a town mindset.

And I really really can't tell if this is Scum!you trying to push people away from a partner or if you really go this hard to defend a town read day 1 like this or if you are actually informed that DV is town in some way, and that knowledge is keeping you from even considering the things that worry me about DV

this is fair, I think I've just been rabbit holed a bit trying to figure out the degree to which you actually believe DV is scum, cause I just don't see it at all. If I'm mistaking you for being more confident than you are / combined with you doubling down that these are actually good reasons to suspect him, then probably there's not much further to go on this line of conversation.

I'm not at the point where I'm ready to pound the table for my particular wagon yet, I think Skybird is a good vote right now (I fully vibe with DV's read on her in 379), but I'm still at a stage where I'd rather wait and see where people go of their own accord rather than start trying to corral votes onto my choice. but in general I think it's good play to go to bat for your townreads (as long as you give that player space to defend themselves first). If I'm not cool with someone's vote I'm going to want them to explain it to the fullest degree possible until I'm satisfied I can get where they're coming from

[GuiltyLion]

Skybird, what is your own read on Icebox?

[GuiltyLion]

I need to look through that game Luke sent me,

I think I did notice in skimming it that COF missed somebody's claim

so TBD on if it changes my mind at all when I have time to do a proper deep dive, which is not now unfortunately

@GuiltyLion, Child of Fairies was not in this game, meaning you could not have seen anything from them on a skim -- care to weigh in?

Cause I am having a hard time looking at this, and not thinking "this is a bold faced lie"

VOTE: guiltylion

I had already noticed COF's past game history was sparse, so when you mentioned games together I figured it was a publicly known alt account. Then you linked me to a game where you said COF replaced into your slot, and I saw StrangeMatter replaced into your slot, so I figured it was a StrangeMatter alt. The fact that you might be confused/mistaken didn't even really cross my mind because it's such a massive thing to be mistaken about, I didn't take you to be that careless.

I had skimmed a bit of the first half of StrangeMatter's ISO but wanted to read the game in context when I had the time/energy for it, but alas that hasn't happened yet because I'm lazy and reading a single game that I'm playing in is hard enough work as it is. Kinda glad I don't need to now For the record, 1) here and 2) here are the posts I had seen and referenced about missing somebody's claim.

The fact that you're quick to just assume that I would boldly lie about that is somewhat representative of my issues with your play this game, Luke. It just feels so surface level, and I don't remember clocking you as a surface-level player in Divide and Conquer. Why on earth would I just make up such a lie if I were scum?

First off, it's just inherently risky to completely make shit up, because people will notice and call you on things if they try to also look at the meta/ISO you're talking about.

But second, in context of

this game

specifically, you had said you weren't sure if COF was scum (despite what I see as a fairly scummy instance of completely missing thread context) because you'd seen him similarly miss things as town, and I was thinking I should gather evidence so I could both understand your take better and possibly recalibrate on COF if I'm wrong. If I'm scum and COF is town, they are a classically easy slot to push on D1 and not draw any suspicion, very low activity, already done things that appear scummy, nobody is hard townreading them. Why would I go through the effort to try to give myself reasons to doubt my projected fake scumread and have to move elsewhere? How would making up this "bold faced lie" benefit a scum!GL in any way?

If I were scum and I noticed COF wasn't in that game you linked, I'd honestly probably still make the COF=StrangeMatter assumption but my mindset would be to find reasons to keep my vote on COF, not reasons to move it away. And I probably would want to explicitly confirm that they're the same player cause if they're not then it completely invalidates your pushback on my scumread.

[GuiltyLion]

I dunno I kinda would think the StrangeMatter/COF mistake is weird enough to be more likely to come from a town!Lukewarm most of the time... is scum that careless to even link to a game and not confirm it's the same player?, but trying to then accuse me of lying about looking at the game linked when I referenced an easily checkable event is lazy/bad play that I wouldn't expect from town normally.

I'm probably still thinking town!Luke here because I do believe scum is a lot more careful about appearances than that but Luke you gotta get your head in the game man

[GuiltyLion]

I like Wisdom and Skybird a lot more on the past two pages but I'm not sure how that's going to have to impact the state of the rest of my reads

I feel the same as Pav in 551 but I'm not sold on needing to choose a side yet, I can imagine Gamma's play as town

I'm still searching for that one D1 scumread that feels True and Good

[GuiltyLion]

DV - I haven't had a chance to really look at this slot yet.

this in particular feels pure, I think scum would feel more obligated to give some kind of read here

[GuiltyLion]

hmm hmm hmm

VOTE: JulietCapulet

her Bowser Jr scumread feels stale, I feel I've seen at least mixed signals from Bowser Jr that I'd expect other townies to be picking up on, JC do you think my 419 is a bad reason to townread the hydra?

[GuiltyLion]

Mmmm maybe I was preemptive in calling OTH a townread

I need to sleep on it but 604 gives me bad vibes

[GuiltyLion]

Oh bowser isn’t gamma

WHOEVER BOWSER HEAD THIS IS WANNA HEAR A JOKE?

I’d say “it’s a lie” galron. He clearly checked who was involved with this hydra in this post here, so you have three options- he’s lying- which makes him scum. He’s lazy town who has somehow forgot the information he clearly checked in this post. He’s scum so not actually paying attention to solving.

Take your pick, but I find it really hard to believe the town answer here.

Do you have a read on JulietCapulet or an opinion on the wagon on her? In a very quick skim of your ISO with search for 'JC' or 'Juliet' I don't see any mentions of her at all.

[GuiltyLion]

I agree Bowser. I think tomorrow's lim should be Wheme.

regardless of what JC flips, you'd want to lim Wheme tomorrow? Why not vote Wheme right now, why say this while your vote is on the same wagon he's voting?

[GuiltyLion]

So maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I said you were scummy for trying to look active without contributing, and your response is just "yeah, that's what I'm doing"? Because that's really not good. This entire thing reads to me like "you're right, but what about it?"

revisiting my off hand comment about 604, this is a good summary of similar pings I had as well. Makes me feel a lot better about COF being town.

That said, I think I just reflexively scumread marci's tone, whenever I read Gamma posting it gives me townvibes.

[GuiltyLion]

I feel Wheme is more likely town than scum, I think town is more likely to not pay attention to hydra members than scum is, and I don't agree with Bowser Jr's assumption that Wheme specifically went to the playerlist in the OP to check who is in which hydra earlier in the game. but I'm not gonna really resist that wagon if people want to go there cause I think there's worlds in which Bowser Jr is right and I'm wrong, and at best Wheme is limbait and disengaged enough so far that I wouldn't trust his play/reads in lategame

I think JC's a better wagon however cause Wheme, as erratic as he's been, has been more present and given more reads than she has

[GuiltyLion]

mm there's a lot that's happened the past few pages that I should probably be commenting on and digging into but I'm at work and don't have time yet, maybe in a few hours / later today if I can.

I'm not a fan of an IC claim that can't be proven, if you are a town IC and your goal is to bait scum into voting you before revealing you shouldn't be doing that on Day 1 if you can't activate it

and I agree with Bowser that Wheme's play feels more motivated by turning the wagon off of himself than it is finding scum

[GuiltyLion]

regardless of what JC flips, you'd want to lim Wheme tomorrow? Why not vote Wheme right now, why say this while your vote is on the same wagon he's voting?

Why do you want Skybird to vote Wheme if you want to wagon me?

Also which reads are you interested in?

I am happy to provide you with some thoughts but I was honestly feeling quite discouraged from trying because every time I've tried talking to people I just get ignored.

I didn't like this post because the onus shouldn't be on me to ask you for specific reads, you should be demonstrating pro-town intent by proactively sharing them and shaping the game in a direction you think will result in scum getting eliminated.

What's your mafia experience, how many games have you played online before?

[GuiltyLion]

Yeah except scum can fuck with it

how do you know scum can fuck with it? is that stated in your role pm?

[GuiltyLion]

I don't know if scum!wheme makes up an ability to vote from beyond the grave

[GuiltyLion]

I’m happy with being the vote I don’t do anything besides being able to vote when I die

If you guys still vote me out after this ur trolling and idrc anymore

that said, this inconsistency is confusing, either you're fine with being limmed or you're not, the AtE to live doesn't make me feel good about wanting to keep you alive

[GuiltyLion]

last person to twilight post is mafia

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Galron

Galron, who do you think is scum

[GuiltyLion]

lol that post restriction is actually really funny, I love it

[GuiltyLion]

I don't find the speculation around why maf may or may not have killed Whemestar all that productive tbh

let's talk about who we want to elim today, we got a short deadline. I reread ISOs over night and I'm fairly sure Galron is a scummy scum scum

[GuiltyLion]

With 15 alive, it takes 9 to eliminate.

Am I missing something? Shouldn't this be 8 votes to lim someone?

~Spiffy

Yeah, I'm thinking that should be 8, but maybe something weird is going on with the shortened day?

Maybe wheme is added to the total. 15 alive, but 16 votes.

You can see Wheme's vote in the VC as Yorick, he's voting Skybird. I think he's wrong there though.

I am mobile posting and don't have a lot of time right now but I am going to case Galron formally at some point today when I can sit on a computer for a bit.

[GuiltyLion]

Let's talk about Galron!!

tl;dr - Galron's play this game lacks any proactive intent to sort other players, he is tentative to give committed reads, and particular stances and posts in his ISO are performative - meant to

appear

like he is solving, rather than indicative of genuine solving.

he is scum.

The More Thorough Analysis:

Early game - Galron makes 11 posts from 21 to 65, and none of them are game advancing in any meaningful way. I get that many players like to joke around and shoot the shit in RVS, but the sheer quantity of posts without any actual attempt to generate information is problematic. It fits a profile of someone wanting to involve themselves in the game without any urgency or need to start sorting or engaging with players, all these posts are jokes and light hearted banter.

Busywork questions - Next, Galron starts engaging with some players in a surface level questioning manner, but seldom offers any real opinions of his own. 104, 105, 108, 123, 177, all light questions for other players to answer, with many of these it's not clear how these questions will help to inform Galron's reads and there's not much follow up on any of them.

The reads he does give during this phase of the game are all non-offensive, non-controversial townreads. After I reply to his questions he calls me town in 122 - why am I town for my 106, 111, 120? I don't see a train of thought that connects "I need to ask GL more about his Pav/TA reads" -> "GL's answers indicate town alignment". 141 calls Luke/Pav "town recognizing each other" - it's notable that he doesn't use these townreads to direct his attention towards players he thinks might be scum. I also don't really see where Pav actually voiced a townread on Luke, looking back at this. 392 is a very passive "Whemestar might be town", and he doesn't go to bat for Whemestar afterwards despite a multitude of player suspecting him throughout the day.

394 is a strange half-baked meta read on Wisdom. It's not at all a good reason to townread anybody, but especially not someone with a ton of experience like Wis

429 has a classically scum-appeasing kind of vibe. "I still think you're town, but I disagree with you".

448 struck me as a notably scummy post at the time and I called it out in 467. The sequence of: 1) vote COF, 2) decide to ISO COF and call out issues with his posts afterwards does not at all look authentic. I think townies do the evaluation work

first

before deciding to vote, and if they're deciding to just sheep or vote somebody without great reasons, they don't then go back to post a lot of reasons to justify it after the fact. The response to me in 469 is quite underwhelming as well.

598 is a very fluffy post that only exists to keep COF suspicious in people's minds. the COF claim is entirely self-resolving and there's no need for anybody to push COF after they claimed it. This post tries to cast doubt on the claim without actually ever calling COF scum or doing the work of explaining why the claim is more likely to come from scum. A textbook scum post.

665 - if Galron thinks Wheme is town, what is he doing to find or pressure scum voting Wheme? why is he not using his vote???

and that's about it for posts with substance/of note for Galron's D1. there's hardly any pressure put on other players, he spent a lot of the day Not Voting, he never vocalizes serious scumreads and only throws out a few token townreads. I have no idea how he felt about many players, there are some he never commented on at all.

Why would anybody townread this? Can people please explicitly give a reason to not lim Galron today if they're against the idea?

I didn't want to write this post at 1am so it's not the best version of itself, but it's the general thrust of points I have against him. And I have some more Important Thoughts that I will share tomorrow, but I want people to engage with my thoughts here first.

[GuiltyLion]

one last thing I forgot - 479 and 598 are very at odds with each other. What were Galron's reasons to believe the claim initially, and why did he later change his mind about them?? It makes me think 479 was BS when he wrote it.

[GuiltyLion]

alright well I don't know if I played this as effectively as I could have, probably if I wasn't out of town last weekend and we had a longer day phase I could have done more but now with fewer than 3 days to go I don't want to delay a lot further. I was hoping to get more in terms of a response from a few players like Wis/Ceph but I don't want to keep withholding.

I have hard info to claim, I am a tracker and last night I tracked Galron to both Whemestar and Skybird. I believe this explains both the Wheme NK and Skybird's claim to lost gold, it is why I am so certain Galron is scum, and I think it's also effectively an inno result on Skybird once we have a scum!Galron flip.

[GuiltyLion]

Also, I've been thinking about it and I'm not sure I completely buy the argument that Juliet was scum. It's based on the idea that town!Juliet would have addressed the fact that she didn't flip in her last will. I agree it's weird she didn't address that, but in a similar vein, why wouldn't a scum!Juliet mention it either? I think there could exist worlds where Juliet is town and genuinely didn't think she needed to reaffirm her claim despite her not flipping.

She might be scum, but I think it's safer going forward if we don't assume that she was

[GuiltyLion]

I'm looking at a couple of spots. TA's posting today has struck me as odd. I also want to look more at Galron and Wisdom. These last two because I really didn't notice them D1 and want to get a better feel for them, make sure they aren't flying under the radar.

i think wisdoms townie

I am mobile posting and don't have a lot of time right now but I am going to case Galron formally at some point today when I can sit on a computer for a bit.

i could see galron being scum

~M★

one hypothesis I had is that I think scum would have been more likely to throw some token shade/distancing towards Galron today rather than actually step up to defend him or profess a townread (done by others like Lukewarm, Bell, DV). I didn't like this post because it feels like it's meant to get in my good graces / disassociate from Galron more than it is actually help get him eliminated. OTH has been a target of suspicion and picking up votes and yet they still hadn't voted Galron (or anybody at all) through most of D2, that's a bad look

[GuiltyLion]

Dunnstral is skeeving me out by lopping in excuses for me.

this post makes me think Dunn is town

[GuiltyLion]

Doesn’t matter anymore, I thought Galron was a poison doc.

I had thought he was softing that in 479, that was part of why I tracked him (combined with me not really townreading him) as I figured if I saw him visit COF that might be an inno

[GuiltyLion]

anyway I'm back home so I'll be a lot more Around to play today. I'm probably going to do some D1 rereading on my lunch break to get more associative info, the main thing that I remember is LLD voting/calling out Galron at a time when he was totally under the radar so I'd give her a fair amount of towncred for that as well

[GuiltyLion]

hmmm

I'd say in general the odds of Galron choosing to peek at exactly both a player that was killed and a player that was robbed are really low and so I don't think it's still really likely that his claim is true or that he's town

however due to my role I will track him again tonight so if I live to D3 I can confirm it tomorrow, therefore I'm not sure if I'm fully opposed to letting him live today, but I want to think about it. @Galron, can you use this ability every night?

[GuiltyLion]

plus I don't know if I believe the odds of town!Galron being loverized with town!Icebox in conjunction with all of that... if I were scum I'd either loverize two obvtown players and get a 2 for 1 with my next NK, or I'd loverize a scum with a townie that we don't plan to NK but might be hard to elim so we get a freebie when one of our goes down. Galron/Icebox pair feels a lot more like the latter than the former

[GuiltyLion]

Also why does Galron use this role on

1. Skybird, who is very unlikely to die
2. Whemestar, who claimed FN and was going to confirm himself to someone at night anyway making him a waste to try and clear

Both pretty bad picks for this hypothetical role imo

~Spiffy

I could kinda see the logic in picking the closest-to-confirmed confirmed town player (Wheme) as a check on a player you suspect (Skybird), but that doesn't line up with the explanation he just gave

you're right though, we should just kill this

[GuiltyLion]

wait also, Galron claimed to be robbed himself, so he shouldn't have enough gold to upgrade to Rolecop yet. I would expect to see him do another parity cop check tonight if he were town with no money, the fact that he tried to imply that he can't due to potentially upgrading his role is just a lie.

[GuiltyLion]

Atp it’s starting to come off as willful ignorance (read: scummy behavior)

yeah this is scummy as all heck - do you actually think Luke is scum or not? I'm not here for passive shade without committing to a real scumread

I'm picking up everything Luke is putting down, if there's a solid mechanical argument to not lim Galron then I'd support OTH today but nobody else. Dunn wagon doesn't inspire any good feelings in me at all, I don't see anything he's done as disingenuous or scum-motivated and I think Galron spewed him as town

[GuiltyLion]

And GL, you should seriously re-think your approach to hydra reading because IMO we’re playing nothing like goats was in that white flag game.

-GE

I'm kinda confused by this post, you remember that I was scum with goats in that game, right?

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma you could make this right by just voting obvscum guiltied Galron

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma you could make this right by just voting obvscum guiltied Galron

I know you want your role to be useful but Galron is likely what he claimed and not scum. Take a step back.

you're not wrong, I do like to try to be the hero, but why is he "likely" not scum? Like what's your case for him as town?

I'm mostly operating under probabilities here, the odds of a town!Galron visiting the dead player for some other reason itself is usually low enough to make him the correct elimination today, regardless of any other factors. I'd be more tempted to look elsewhere if he was playing in a super transparent, obvtown fashion, but he's not. I don't even know why he's voting Titus, which is like the bare minimum of what townies should be explaining, who they are voting and why.

If you have actual hard info that suggests he is town, I think you should share it, or at least tell us that you do. Otherwise I'm trusting my hard info over your reads

[GuiltyLion]

Galron also claimed thieved, so if town stole from him they should out that as well.

[GuiltyLion]

well, maybe not, but how many gold thieves can we really have in the game realistically

[GuiltyLion]

normally there's social media posts and photos of the ring

[GuiltyLion]

here's a useful question - do all the people saying to keep Galron alive agree that if I die tonight he should be the D3 elim? And if so, the only benefit to town is that Icebox lives an extra day and we get an extra report on the off chance Galron is actually somehow town, right? If that's the case, shouldn't we be trying to leash Galron's night actions tonight to be most useful? I'd probably want to parity check something like Ceph/Wisdom assuming neither is limmed today

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma, can you sell me on Dunn? Feel free to use the same points you've given to marci in your private chat. "ur tone sux" doesn't do it for me

[GuiltyLion]

I'm coming around to townreading Gamma again but I just hate this Dunn wagon

I would like thoughts from LLD, Wis, DV, etc, on leashing Galron and Galron to publicly confirm under threat of elimination otherwise. It's kinda silly to say it's useful to let him get another report if we don't choose to exercise any input into who he's going to "investigate" (scare quotes intentional cause I still think he's like 90% scum here), and it'd be a useful way of generating more information from everyone else as well

[GuiltyLion]

it was formed as an alternative to a slot that I'm very confident is scum, and further I think Galron tried to shade Dunn and make him look bad in a way that doesn't look to me like a S-S interaction. I don't really see any good points against Dunn for things I find indicative, Dunn is always low activity, I've actually agreed with most of his stances this game, and I don't think your point about a post restriction holds any water, in fact it reminds me a bit of you trying to claim Dusa was scummy/hard to read in Situation Room for her flavor roleplaying

[GuiltyLion]

my best point against Dunn would be that his vote didn't move much towards mid/late D1, but that's not always indicative. I also think his Pav vote to open D2 is a bit of an unlikely angle to take as scum, one of those takes that feels genuine because it doesn't strike as something scum would see as a useful read nor something especially plausible/in character

[GuiltyLion]

WhemeStar (7): Bowser Jr., Cephrir, Skybird, Off The Hook, Pavowski, Lukewarm, Juliet Capulet
Juliet Capulet (6): Tamora's Angel, GuiltyLion, Wisdom, Lady Lambdadelta, DeasVail, WhemeStar
DeasVail (1): Icebox
Bowser Jr. (1): Dunnstral
Off The Hook (1): Child of Fairies

Not Voting (1): Galron

I'd probably want some kind of further confirmation on JC's alignment before diving too hard down this rabbithole but I would say this is a good VC to return to later. If JC was in fact conf!scum, I'd bet there's at least one other scum on the Wheme wagon. I'm hard townreading Bowser Jr and Lukewarm, and we have effectively a mechanical inno on Skybird (in either world of town/scum Galron then Skybird is town), so I'd look in {Ceph, OTH, Pav} for another scum.

[GuiltyLion]

in a few hours later tonight I'll make a super tryhard reads post that should serve as my last will should shenanigans happen before I can post again and I die N2.

[GuiltyLion]

I visited Guiltylion, but they haven't said anything. So I assume they didn't get anything.

oh, I may have gotten that

[GuiltyLion]

Anyway here's a fancy tier readslists. The order inside the tiers doesn't matter at all, just how they came to mind for me. Also heads up, (Wisdom especially you're gonna hate this but) most of these reads are grounded in an Axiomatic Galron Is Scum assumption.

Tier 1 - GL seal of Approved Townies, Please Never Lim

Skybird

- Mechanically cleared. If Galron is scum, there's almost no role I can think of where it makes sense for him to visit a scum partner on N1, unless he's a mafia doc. If Galron is town, he claimed an inno result on her slot. I trust y'all to only revisit this if Galron's scum with a role that would visit a teammate

Lukewarm

- I think everyone mostly agrees Luke feels pretty obvtown by now? He radiates conviction in his beliefs and arguments, I haven't detected any real AgendaPosting or contrived reasoning - even when I didn't grok the nature of his DV scumread he was able to demonstrate to me that it was genuine - mixed with some solid towntells like completely mixing up CoF/StrangeMatter (I'm convinced scum would be too careful/paranoid to make such a mistake). Has consistent presence touching on the major through lines of the game, clear interest in proactively pushing his scumreads without backing down from pressure or scrutiny.

Bowser Jr

- Another slot that took me a little while to come around upon but now I see as strong town. My early point about truly subtle hydra dissonance (419) I think is still quite strong. I also liked 761 a lot, that's the kind of post that comes from town consistently evaluating new posts and information rather than scum pursuing an agenda. I also thought their continued pressure on Wheme in light of his claim, done in real time, felt genuine. Advocated for Galron lim before I outed my result (1112). And all of their engagement with my Galron result today I see as townie, the conviction in Galron elimination being the correct choice I don't think comes from scum here because a) if partners with Galron, there's a slight hope we lim elsewhere and b) if scum in town!Galron world, it's not necessary to champion his elimination as he's dead man walking at some point in this game. And they've been doggedly insistent on it in a way that forces the issue with themselves at the front of the conversation.

Icebox

- I hear Bell only posts this much when he's town, and he's been posting this much. Also, will die when Galron dies, so not much need to sort even if he's fooled us all.

COF

- Has got a self-resolving claim that feels completely believable, and I actually like their train of thought at points (628, 1080, 1426) even if it's rarely shared and a little sparse. I'd maybe reconsider if they claim the poison is removed without another town player backing it up, but for now seems fine to throw into a locktown bin.

Tier 2 - I could see myself getting paranoid late game, but generally find town and wouldn't want to lim without powering through a bunch of other flips first

Dunn

- I really feel the 1248 / 1254 posts spew Dunn as town, assuming scum!Galron. Dunn was not making excuses for Galron at all, he criticized a singular point I made, the fact that Galron embellished this strongly suggests to me that Galron wants to make Dunn look bad. The particularly insidious thing about the "he's defending me too much" sort of shade is that it still could stick to Dunn even if Galron red flips, which is why I don't believe the intent is to distance but rather to throw dirt on a clean townie. He's also somewhat mysteriously the main point of focus right now at a time when I think scum want to lim outside of Galron, no matter what Galron's alignment is (as it would serve them to keep an easy miselim alive another day)

LLD

- Early vote/pressure on Galron and I think her arguments and play on D2 has also felt natural and genuine much like Bowser Jr's - I especially like that she calls him town and threatened Galron to not shade/vote obvious townies. My only worry here is if I'm a million percent wrong on Galron/many of my other reads, she strikes me as someone with a capable scum game, but in most universes I think she's town and I'd really only re-evaluate her if the situation was dire.

Off the Hook

- I've waffled a fair amount on these two but I think most of the things I don't like from them are probably non-indicative. Marci has been a bit sassy/confrontational in a way I don't like, but I don't think it aligns with what I understand to be a timid scum meta. Gamma is unpleasantly angry at points, but I think the frustration at hydra dissonance / appeals to Luke and me are ultimately genuine. I think he's usually a bit more in control of his emotions as scum, and really the only way where his rage here makes sense as scum is if it's exactly Galron/OTH/JC team and he's fighting a desperate battle because they're screwed otherwise. I see that as somewhat unlikely even if Galron/JC are confscum. Also, the D4 IC claim doesn't feel fake to me either. The biggest thing I don't like from them honestly is the way they kinda disappeared over last weekend, but I could imagine that being laziness on either part when neither agree with each other's reads and haven't had time to fully sync yet. I also didn't like the Dunn vote but I think Gamma's conviction in it is Real.

Titus/TMA

- Titus is classically a difficult read for me, I almost never feel good about reading her and I don't have an intuitive sense of her town/scumtells, but I think the early interaction with Galron (405 and 427) doesn't strike me as theater - I think Titus from what I know of her is more inclined to distance/bus her buddies than give them early token townreads, and I think Galron's intent with 427 is to get Titus to give him more Public Towncred in the thread rather than to chit chat with a buddy. If they were S-S this dialogue would vibe a bit more self-conscious knowing that Galron is Actually Scum. I also thought her argument with JC late D1 looked quite good for her, especially if JC is scum, but even if she weren't.

Tier 3 - I find these slots hard to feel definitively good about, definitely think a deep scum could be lurking in this tier - aka the "experienced players who are just chilling this game" tier

Wisdom

- I don't know how to read Wisdom. He definitely took a backseat D1, I haven't felt any burning town conviction from him in his reads at any point this game though I don't think that's necessarily a slam dunk scumtell. The fact that he's been consistent kinda pushing me away from Galron and suspecting Dunn even before I outed my result (1066) makes it feel more genuine to me? I don't like his Dunn suspicion nor his Galron townread, but my main hesitation is that I don't know if I can convince myself that scum!Wis with scum!Galron says that he thinks Galron is likely town (1433)?? I dunno, I don't have great reasons to read him either way, if Galron's scum he's probably town, but I'd love to get some mechanical info to help with this one.

Cephrir

- Very similar to Wisdom, I don't know if I've felt strong beliefs from him about anything and he's just treading water, and I think he's competent enough as a player to do this as either alignment. I don't think I've disliked any of his posts and if I had to put money on it I'd bet town, I just don't trust him as much as everyone in the tiers above. The latest bit of role PM questioning is probably the towniest thing he's done so far, I'd give him some decent towncred for that, but you gotta take a real hard look at him if he's still kicking it lategame and the main suspects have all flipped town.

DV

- I liked a ton of DV's early game posts and reads, at times I felt very mind-meldy with him, but hard for me to shake the feeling that he's been coasting on D2. I feel he's doing enough to avoid being strongly pressured and not a lot to push or sort players today, watching from the sidelines. I could imagine him being a skilled player emulating Reasonable and Relaxed Town Thought Processes, or he might just be a real Town Player With Reasonable Thought Processes. He doesn't have a lot by way of Galron interactions which I see as a fairly substantive point against him. 1244 especially is a notably bad read IMO, but again I have doubts over whether he actually feels comfortable enough posting that when he knows I'm tunneling his partner. I want to townread him more than I do, but I don't have a lot of other suspects.

Tier 4 - My Pet Scumread That I Didn't Mean to Put All Alone in This Tier But It Kinda Just Worked Out That Way

Pavowski

- Can we revisit Pavowski, cause I see a lot of "obvtown" reads flying around and I had kinda shelved him there myself earlier, but now on closer inspection I don't know why I think he's town?? His ISO is filled with a lot more jokes and casual riffing than actual Playing and Sorting, I def feel vibes that he wants to fit in. He has early game chit chat with Galron, then shades him a bit in 458 and 464 but it doesn't go anywhere, even after he unvotes COF in 497 which would be a natural time to chase a new suspect. I thought his engagement with Wheme was kinda the worst of all the major Wheme wagon voters. There's the bad VCA positioning I called out in 1521 - Ceph and OTH especially I'd like you paying attention to this. Also, I was thinking at early D2 that scum might be worried about me death tunneling Galron (and may even suspect I have a guilty given Galron potentially performed the NK), and so I see a post as 1238 as definitely in that mold - votes Galron but not with a ton of conviction, and buddies up to me in the process.

if

I'm scum and I want to vote my partner and get towncred, this is exactly the post I think I'd be incentivized to make. 1245 is interesting - one of those posts where if I knew Pav was town for sure I'd say he's exactly right and it's a good point against DV, but given that a scum!Pav would know that Galron is scum, could be jumping at a chance to make a townie look bad after Galron redflips. 1518 is a bit of a purposeless post unless he thinks Luke might be scum. 1664 is alarmingly thoughtless to try to tie flavor to alignment.

Idk, I see a lot of yellow-to-red flags with Pav and I think he makes sense as a Galron buddy. Galron also suddenly suspecting Pav could easily be distancing, and it seems to have worked looking at Gamma's reaction to it.

Tier 5 - Scum

Galron

- Just wanted him here for completeness sake. I can kinda get the mechanical argument for leaving him alive, but I think you're wildin' if you think he actually might be town. I tracked him to two players. One of those players died. The other one has already confirmed a negative utility effect happening to them. He's been loverized with an obvtown. His claimed night action doesn't really make a ton of sense and his justification for it doesn't either. His claimed ability to upgrade to rolecop doesn't make sense because parity cop is equal to if not a stronger role. I said I would track him again tonight to check him and he tried to imply he might upgrade to a rolecop (which he claimed would cost gold), despite also claiming to be robbed at the start of the day. His reads are inscrutable and all over the place. He's been absent for large stretches of the game. I was able to write what I think is a fairly decent case on him even not considering any of these role factors (1231). He's scum.

Sorry for the giant wall but please read it through at least once and consider it my Last Will and refer back to it after I am dead. Unless Galron is town, in which case disregard it completely and form your own reads cause I'll have thoroughly borked the gamestate.

[GuiltyLion]

oh siiiick didn't even realize that was a page top, beautiful

[GuiltyLion]

Ok, I was looking back on stuff that happened last night and I don't think Galron was the person who robbed me. I got my wages at the end of day 1. It appears that I wasn't robbed until the dawn actions. My notice about the missing gold didn't come until start of day . Did it happen like this for anyone else?

Is there a reason you think this didn’t occur as a night action though?

It might be helpful to know if GL received his result at beginning of dawn or beginning of day

I received the Galron track result prior to the start of the dawn phase, and then personally I received an update on my coins (that the total was unchanged) after the dawn phase, once day 2 actually started.

[GuiltyLion]

Also, gl. Your reads list is like exactly mine, but with pav and oth flipped lol

do you find my points against Pav worth looking at? I really don't think I have any good reasons to townread him at all, I thought the "never lim Juliet until endgame" posting was unlikely from scum but I could see that as cheeky S-S. If they're both scum together it would also serve as a different explanation as to why Pav didn't consider her as a potential NK (111).

[GuiltyLion]

@Luke - I think the rest of your post is fine, I don't want to push Pav too hard today but just kinda bring him back into the thread consciousness a bit, but I feel the need to point this out

someone else said it looked like town finding each other.

Galron is the one that said that

[GuiltyLion]

eeeegh I'm never good at correctly discerning twilight WIFOM but my one read is that if Galron is actually town after all then Ceph's stock takes a huge dive

Galron if you are town I am sorry for railroading you, it was just too much of a stretch/coincidence of a double visit, the visit to Wheme, and the loverize for me to let you go. I know that would definitely suck in your shoes (if you are town) but I promise if I'm alive D3 and you're town I'll reread all of your posts and take your views more seriously

if Galron is scum then I stand by all my page top 71 reads

[GuiltyLion]

if Galron is actually town after all then Ceph's stock takes a huge dive

What about dunn's stock?

I won't commit to it yet but yeah I'd definitely be a lot more open to following you there

[GuiltyLion]

I think Pav is scummy regardless of Galron's alignment, Ceph could go either way but notably more scummy if Galron is town, Dunn is almost never scum if Galron is scum

them my final words, hope to see you all tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

woooowwww I didn't even consider Icebox, well played!

ffery this game was so fun, thank you for all the work you put in design, flavor, everything! I loved playing