Mini Normal 2246 - Game Over

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: DW

You’re good Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I have Datisi and A50 as Scum so far. Ico is Town.

[Andresvmb]

I have Datisi and A50 as Scum so far. Ico is Town.

Wow you have the opposite thoughts as me, are you scum?

Datisi did something that pinged me heavily. They made it seem like they were trying to get into a fight with Ico by highlighting some previous experience they had together in an “effort” to discern alignment. And when Ico reacted in a way that was supposedly negative, Datisi sought an explanation, Ico provided it, and Datisi sort of just blindly accepted it and moved on.

From where I sit, it seemed like an attempt at clearing a player that they know they will be forced to interact with a lot this game, perhaps so they can avoid having to give further explanations today and focus on a different player that from their perspective should be easier to mis-execute.

Wild theory? Perhaps. But you gotta start somewhere.

[Andresvmb]

hmm

ico, you unvoted me kinda quick

you scared?

excuse me? there's a bunch of people i need to vote here, and i haven't got all day
also i'm distinctly *against* bussing so yeah

ok i get that it's a meme but i'm assuming scum!ico would not enjoy pissing me off after what happened last time, which is why i'm thonking on you unvoting me already

so i'd appreciate at least a semi-serious response kthx

hmm

ico, you unvoted me kinda quick

you scared?

excuse me? there's a bunch of people i need to vote here, and i haven't got all day
also i'm distinctly *against* bussing so yeah

ok i get that it's a meme but i'm assuming scum!ico would not enjoy pissing me off after what happened last time, which is why i'm thonking on you unvoting me already

so i'd appreciate at least a semi-serious response kthx

i'm not giving you a semi serious response to me unvoting an obviously non-serious vote
i unvoted you, get over it lol

alright, i like that answer, is this finally a town!ico game?

do you have any opinions on wiki?

This is the sequence I was focusing on. I would argue there’s really not enough in Ico’s response that should have moved Datisi in their early suspicion. Yet they immediately switch to appearing comfortable and asking Ico about a different player. Strategic positioning is what I would call this.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: dwlee

You don’t believe in my theory one bit and think DW is taking advantage to vote Datisi? Entirely possible.

[Andresvmb]

Oh right this game

Read first two posts:
VOTE: iconeum

and what in the first 2 posts made you vote me?

Okay andres how sure are you actually about this Ico townread

This post is garbo

It’s a question you can totally answer haha and if the answer is “RVS, early tone read”, that would be acceptable. So why is that garbage? Not sure I follow.

[Andresvmb]

Oh right this game

Read first two posts:
VOTE: iconeum

and what in the first 2 posts made you vote me?

Okay andres how sure are you actually about this Ico townread

This post is garbo

It’s a question you can totally answer haha and if the answer is “RVS, early tone read”, that would be acceptable. So why is that garbage? Not sure I follow.

Dude didn't even post in the first two

What alignment info is he expecting to get out of that question, it's literally pointless

I read your post to mean the first two posts

from Ico

. If you literally meant the first two posts in the game then yes the answer is obvious.

[Andresvmb]

Spicy. This is a good start.

Datisi, come fight me. Convince me you’re not Scum and I’m wrong.

[Andresvmb]

the first 2 posts

I feel like ico knew that's what I meant as well given this wording

Also stop preempting excuses for possibly scummy behavior andres

I’m not providing excuses, you asked me for my opinion. So I provided it. If you wanted to better understand what Ico might have understood, then you should have asked them directly.

[Andresvmb]

i don't like you

Not a reason to SR someone. If anything, DW’s start is more Town indicative than not.

[Andresvmb]

the first 2 posts

I feel like ico knew that's what I meant as well given this wording

Also stop preempting excuses for possibly scummy behavior andres

I’m not providing excuses, you asked me for my opinion. So I provided it. If you wanted to better understand what Ico might have understood, then you should have asked them directly.

I'd argue my question was kinda rhetorical but oh well

Hahaha fair enough.

[Andresvmb]

Andresvmb, if you are ready to explain opinion about Datisi in detail, please do it about A50 too.

For A50, you could argue they are posting a lot of jokes and fluff which is very much in line with their Town meta. But they’re doing *something* I don’t want to discuss in detail yet because it’s not Town positive. I just think they’re being a bit heavy handed.

[Andresvmb]

DW’s start is more Town indicative than not.

i would actually be interested in the explanation here

Ico, you and I both know that you can be relentless and at times, obnoxious. Why in the world is Scum trying to get into an argument with you? Unless they don’t know you from previously. And DW is pursuing everyone aggressively so far, with some pointed questions, which is in my book Town indicative.

[Andresvmb]

Ico in my experience has just rolled over and died cause he was scum

Idk what town!him plays like

Datisi read Ico correctly in an early game we had together, and Ico clashed with me repeatedly. We managed to get the Town to work together and frankly, Ico played a massive role in us winning that game. They are absolutely relentless when they think they got Scum.

And I don’t know when you’ve seen them roll over as Scum. I have seen something totally different. But I also had them pinned down as Scum so maybe that had something to do with it.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I’ll do this for now and come back later.

VOTE: Datisi

[Andresvmb]

And DW is pursuing everyone aggressively so far, with some pointed questions, which is in my book Town indicative.

I'm not sure that it was agressive enough with his fast changing votes. He can do his little attacks on purpose, it can be not sincere. It is also not so dangerous for him on this stage.

How aggressive do you want someone to be in the first five pages? There’s a reason I said it was Town indicative and didn’t say DW is definitely Town. Like I said, they’re good Scum so that one is tougher.

[Andresvmb]

At least he is not a town's important role with such behaviour and confidence.
In the best case scenario he is just a ruiner. We dont need him to win, he can help scums to win.

This btw is a terrible assumption. And what makes you think that you can so easily determine that DW is bad Town? How many games have you played around here? This has to be an alt right?

[Andresvmb]

Then maybe stop posting everything with much confidence, bc later when some ppl flip red/green, I will elim those, who have more and bigger mistakes.

this feels like an actual townie with principles, as opposed to scum twisting principles
this is kinda just a viberead but I'm fine having vibereads
While I don't think having bad reads is entirely a scumtell I appreciate Wiki's attempt to be firm about it

Not very useful principle though. Mafia has perfect reads after all.

It is very useful. It prevents townies from playing like idiots. Some caution is not unnecessary. Remember all your bad games and think what was done wrong and why. There is no need in fast decisions.

As far as I can tell this is your first game on this forum. You haven’t declared whether you’re an alt, so I’m going to assume you’re not. So how much experience do you have?

I don’t disagree with your assumption that Town tend to play like idiots btw. That’s more often than not the case. What I would challenge, or ask you to perhaps think about, is how you square that with the idea that the players that make the most or biggest mistakes are most likely to be Scum. I am finding that it’s a terrible way of going about finding Scum around here.

[Andresvmb]

I have enough experience in this game.

This isn’t an answer.

[Andresvmb]

Dozens of games, if you are so interested.

Lots of vague answers.

Okay, fine. I’ll assume you’re experienced but I won’t ask you to point to other games you’ve played in because it’s clear you don’t want to share that, which means you want to be viewed purely through your play in this game. Though I can accept that, it still leaves open the question as to why you’re so happy to discredit DW’s skills as Town when from my personal experience, they’re definitely better than average.

[Andresvmb]

Dozens of games, if you are so interested.

Lots of vague answers.

Okay, fine. I’ll assume you’re experienced but I won’t ask you to point to other games you’ve played in because it’s clear you don’t want to share that, which means you want to be viewed purely through your play in this game. Though I can accept that, it still leaves open the question as to why you’re so happy to discredit DW’s skills as Town when from my personal experience, they’re definitely better than average.

Wow Andres you're flattering me

If you care about my opinion it means you don’t think I’m half bad. I suppose I’ll take the compliment too.

[Andresvmb]

andres also feels like town on like page 4

Gamma have you TR me this early before? As Scum you definitely thought me being active early was “strange” and could be used to push me. I take it you’ve changed your mind about my activity being a tell either way?

[Andresvmb]

andres also feels like town on like page 4

Gamma have you TR me this early before? As Scum you definitely thought me being active early was “strange” and could be used to push me. I take it you’ve changed your mind about my activity being a tell either way?

is this talking about 236 or another game? Anyway, I don't remember reading you off of activity ever, I just like some of the stuff you've posted

Yeah. In the Scum Chat, you said that me being particularly active early was “suspicious”, and that you thought you could push me coming into the game. I don’t know if that was purely because of amount of content or the content itself.

[Andresvmb]

Datisi, come fight me. Convince me you’re not Scum and I’m wrong.

i'd probably either use my "i know how to read ico guys!!" and ez townread him and then kill him, or i'd properly scumread him. like i know this sorta read progression is (1) bound to get attention and (2) ico won't fall for it. but also like this is semi-checkable so if you feel like doing homework then be my guest.

Okay but I would argue you’re doing the former to some extent. That was the point of my post. It almost seemed like you were angling for a quick TR there so that they would mostly leave you alone. If you SR Ico incorrectly as Scum, I think they would start casting a light in your direction. I have a feeling you wouldn’t like that very much.

[Andresvmb]

it was on the content itself, it looked like you were back at your bullshit with norwee but you seemed off from how you were in 231 when I was silently spectating

That’s fair. Norwee was Town reading me incorrectly (lazily, I might add), but was right about a lot and I was looking in the wrong place. It’s funny - the games were I’ve played distracted lately, the Town wins. When I’m largely right though, the Town loses.

[Andresvmb]

it was on the content itself, it looked like you were back at your bullshit with norwee but you seemed off from how you were in 231 when I was silently spectating

That’s fair. Norwee was Town reading me incorrectly (lazily, I might add), but was right about a lot and I was looking in the wrong place. It’s funny - the games were I’ve played distracted lately, the Town wins. When I’m largely right though, the Town loses.

^Scum reading me*

[Andresvmb]

What does this mean

Andre said you are townie for agression to everybody.
But when you've got additional votes, you started meow meow meow with everybody to stop elimination.
All your agression was fake, like I said earlier.

I’m really confused as to why you’re so tunneled on DW. I think you’re wrong but beyond that I think you’re being somewhat foolish. You hypothesized that DW could be displaying a certain amount of aggression in an insincere way to come across as Town, but for that to be the case they would have had to know in advance that such behavior would be TR. I don’t know what kind of behavior DW thinks will be TR by most people. I can just tell you that I was TR’ing the way DW was going about the game and the way they were probing slots. Any why do you care so much about what I’m relying on for a TR? You also hinted that we could be Scum together (horrible read honestly, but whatever). So if that’s the case, my reasoning is entirely made up and you should ignore it.

Here’s what I think is happening in part. I think you’re misguided Town attacking Town, and I think certain players (like Selynee) are hiding behind you (by TR’ing you) to help them push mis-executions.

And yes, I think Selynee is possible Scum and Three is onto something.

[Andresvmb]

Wait, did you just hard claim Day Cop? What the hell is happening.

[Andresvmb]

Wiki are you an NPOM alt?

[Andresvmb]

I can say easily that I'll explain later if it is not ok to discuss it now.
Btw, Andre said that he will explain later why he scumreads A50. So what? You are interested only in case about you?

Btw I did heavily hint at my reasoning around my read of A50.

[Andresvmb]

Wiki are you an NPOM alt?

NPOM is banned iirc so I’d hope that’s not the case

Haha they would get banned.

[Andresvmb]

OK. I see.

1) Well, I give Datisi this, some players just feel my questions are "aimless". Obviously, that's not how I see them. Page 6 as basically me trying to get someone's thoughts in a post, easy to understand. That I didn't hurry up and get "reads" from it is part two- like I didn't like really liked their response to my questions (especially Wiki's) but later in-game I start to like him more due to the fact he seems fairly into scumhunting...as much as I disagree with his theories.

2) Really, need to explain that again? See 253. If I wanted to push the idea there is scum between Dwelee and Wiki, I would have said I think one of them is town and one is scum.

Why did you expect someone else to make a case here? Why didn't you bring this up or vote me before someone else did?

VOTE: Three

Because I saw what looked like a good point and I didn't like your response to it. Why do you think it's odd that other players can be convinced by another player's reads?

Is this a strictly OMGUS vote or do you actually scum read me for believing two other players' reads?

Oh, don't bring the whole OMGUS thing. Nope, is cuz you didn't say anything to me directly. You waited for two other persons to make a case. I flip town, you have the perfect excuse "Oh, I was just following what these people said". Plus the argument about me saying there is scum between Dwelee and Wiki was so baseless it could be seen from an airplane.

You seem to be fishing for a reason to SR someone and placate Datisi.

Before you got into this argument with Three, your posts basically said nothing. You didn’t really hint at anyone’s alignment except to suggest that Wiki’s “scumhunting” had switched your mind about them. I’ll make a prediction, see if it pans out. Wiki is not going to get NK’ed this game. They will either get executed, or Endgamed. If I had to guess, it’ll be a mis-execution. Other than that, you were particularly wishy washy about DW/Wiki. I am not sure I know exactly whether you think they’re both Town or not. You’ve said they could be, or maybe if one flips Scum the other is Town, but that’s really not particularly helpful. And then after that you’re accusing Three of being Scum because they’re hiding behind two other people’s reads of your slot? But hold on - you’ve already conceded that Datisi’s perception of your questions is not an uncommon reaction. So then the read has some basis in reality, but is just wrong? How does that make Three Scum?

@Three, OMGUS doesn’t say shit about someone’s alignment btw. Town sometimes just get frustrated and vote back thinking they’re being attacked by Scum. But I do SR Selynee’s timidity and somewhat narrow focus on your slot.

[Andresvmb]

Wait, did you just hard claim Day Cop? What the hell is happening.

mafia

I was clearly hinting at the stupidity of the action but sure, mafia.

[Andresvmb]

I can say easily that I'll explain later if it is not ok to discuss it now.
Btw, Andre said that he will explain later why he scumreads A50. So what? You are interested only in case about you?

Btw I did heavily hint at my reasoning around my read of A50.

I am willing to strike you with a

very good

deal here: You drop your silly DR on me and I do NOT clear you, so you can be mislimmed at any later point as you wish. *Smirk*

I have never been mis-executed on this forum. Not once. I don’t need you to avoid execution - I can just play my obvious Town game and it won’t happen.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: dwlee

this could easily be a scum piling vote. There were a few votes on dwlee for whatever reasons, and this just… does nothing.

if i recall my games with town!gera correctly, he usually like, does, *something* early on. i don't remember him just naked voting then noping the fuck out of games. granted, i know he usually doesn't do a lot, but eh, this still feels uncharacteristic.

also where the fuck are you

I have detailed in a different game what I see as typical Town behavior for geraintm. So far, this isn’t it.

[Andresvmb]

Andre said I'm washy about DW vs Wiki. Well, as I said, maybe because I don't have a clear view on Dwelee. And I'd also like to see Andre's thoughts on this slot.

I’m not sure if you’re asking me for my thoughts on DW or Wiki.

I basically agree with Datisi, in that the overall vibe around Wiki points to Town. How do I put this - they seem aimless. Uninformed might be a better term. They also felt so strongly about a SR that they seemed to have seriously tried to claim Day Cop. I can’t SR that as much as I dislike the actual hard claim nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

It’s still too early to have a real solid read on DW. I don’t think they’re Scum - I just think they’re a decently good player and they could be fooling people into thinking they’re Town with their aggression, confidence, and repeated attempts at forming a Town core (which all strike me as +Town).

[Andresvmb]

Wiki’s point isn’t totally silly (about how they’re perceiving DW’s aggression), it’s just that it’s not the first person I would want executed here probably.

[Andresvmb]

I have never been mis-executed on this forum. Not once. I don’t need you to avoid execution - I can just play my obvious Town game and it won’t happen.

Reheheheally?? Well, I'm sorry I saved your lazy bum in the previous game then. You must've wanted to go through the wild experience so bad I had to check you on N1.

People actually thought that me being more active was suspicious. It wasn’t that I was lazy. It’s that I was contributing too much. Talk about ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

You know it’s funny - I joined this game in part because I wanted to see if the higher odds of rolling Scum actually helped me get the monkey off my back so to speak. Nope. Still Town. Still trying not to suck horribly with my early reads.

[Andresvmb]

I am not ignoring you haha I am keeping my trained on you and I was trying to figure out a conclusion for now of your posts.

See I correctly read you as Scum in a different game because I felt you were wordy. And I do know you get nervous as Scum. My invitation to fight me was to see how willing you were to confront a direct SR of your slot. I just don’t have an answer yet.

My vote is only parked on you because I’ve been lazy. I wanted to vote Selynee but I don’t know - I am no longer feeling that vote.

[Andresvmb]

^@Datisi

[Andresvmb]

^My eye trained on you*

[Andresvmb]

I wanted to vote Selynee but I don’t know - I am no longer feeling that vote.

i still find her pretty suspicious (it's just i dislike the wagon on her moreso), care to convince me otherwise?

Selynee was called out on her indecisiveness and as a result, produces a long post about DW to then conclude that… she doesn’t know DW’s alignment? That didn’t strike me as particularly Scummy.

[Andresvmb]

See I correctly read you as Scum in a different game because I felt you were wordy. And I do know you get nervous as Scum. My invitation to fight me was to see how willing you were to confront a direct SR of your slot. I just don’t have an answer yet.

i thought it was because i pushed every single possible misyeet... which you only figured out once we killed you, anyway

though thinking back to that game, i recall picking up a few scumreads along the way and willingly getting into fights there (despite being admittedly nervous), so i'm not sure if that's like, a helpful metric for reading my slot.

That was the nail in the coffin. The fact that you kept pushing all of the mis-executions. But I’m talking about how you felt in the early part of the game. I do distinctly recall Scum Reading you then.

[Andresvmb]

I wanted to vote Selynee but I don’t know - I am no longer feeling that vote.

i still find her pretty suspicious (it's just i dislike the wagon on her moreso), care to convince me otherwise?

Selynee was called out on her indecisiveness and as a result, produces a long post about DW to then conclude that… she doesn’t know DW’s alignment? That didn’t strike me as particularly Scummy.

yeah, that's fair. i could be playing devil's advocate here and argue that that's potentially a scummy move because she's kinda being arrogant and doubling down on "i have nothing to read dwlee on either way, why are you giving me shit for being indecisive", but (1) i'm not sure if i believe that, and (2) i think that's a move that is more likely to come from experienced scum, and i don't remember seeing sel around much, which means i'd have to do research. which i currently don't want to do.

also noted on the other game. i think i was in 3 stressful games at the time so i don't remember the early parts very well, so i'm gonna assume you're correct

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12608006

That’s the post I was talking about.

[Andresvmb]

Datisi is not town for me. He can be with Dwlee or even darker. Maybe flipping colors will change my mind.

You can’t possibly think that everyone questioning you is Scum. This is a bit childish.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: A50

I’m VLA until tomorrow btw.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi I haven’t fully caught up but I saw your cry for help so why not.

I would lean positively on anybody contributing in what you perceive to be a Townie manner despite previous experience dictating that such a player tends to avoid doing that (in this case, geraintm).

[Andresvmb]

^in D1 here.

[Andresvmb]

I’m also going to say that geraintm’s criticism of Salsabil’s contribution there is pretty on point.

[Andresvmb]

I feel there’s a Scum in 4 names? Yeah, that’s actually what I would be saying as Scum to avoid any accountability and seem like I’m contributing.

Also, I take it you’re TR’ing me to the point you think you can somewhat rely on my opinion? I will say, I’m being TR pretty broadly here. Which doesn’t bode well for my long-term survival.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi what do you think of A50? I thought that comment about how they’re not really all that keen to read was pretty Scummy actually. It’s a blatant attempt at avoiding contributing much today, and I don’t appreciate it.

[Andresvmb]

The answer on geraintm is that they can and they have. I could try and find specific examples but yeah they’re not totally devoid of content D1. They just don’t lean heavily any which way. But they also know this is what people know of them so it would be absolutely out of character for them to come out aggressive against someone D1 as either alignment.

[Andresvmb]

Gamma has definitely played with geraintm before. I’m sure they have something to add to this.

[Andresvmb]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12952165

Here is the previous description of meta I have offered on geraintm. They got progressively more aggressive as the game went on.

And DW was in that game too. I would also ask there.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I gotta get back to work. Carry on haha

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Your reactions to DW don’t make logical sense to me. DW expressed a high degree of certainty that you were Scum. You called that pathetic, and have heavily hinted at DW being bad Town. But why Town? And why so confrontational? DW isn’t actually a bad player. I just feel you should express more curiosity and less frustration towards DW and the view they’ve expressed. I would also argue DW is very much starting to feel like Town to me. It’s hard for players in general to be this pushy of a SR as Scum. It’s rare, and DW hasn’t operated like that if my recollection serves right. So I am starting to feel like you’re being forced into discrediting DW without calling them Scum, which is why I’ve voted you.

You’re also pushing Wiki who honestly seems almost like obvious Town to me. Or rather, I feel like the normal reaction to how Wiki is playing is to not want to execute it (Datisi’s “village idiot” description isn’t particularly charitable, but perhaps not that off target). I’m more inclined to want to give Wiki more time to see if their contributions are of any actual value.

Separately, I think A50’s frustration seems more Town indicative actually. I didn’t SR A50 for the activity level - I felt a specific post I quoted was Scummy. But the reaction they had to the pressure seemed genuine.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I do have to admit - this calling for votes thing isn’t typical for Scum either. Oy.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi this is a level of annoyed I don’t think I’ve experienced much from you. I TR it, but I also don’t think you’re going to get much of anywhere rehashing the same points. I would argue you’ve made yourself clear and I do agree that Three’s interpretation of a lot of Selynee’s posts has been somewhat Scummy because it doesn’t feel like Three is taking the most negative view of certain posts that just feel rather innocuous to me.

[Andresvmb]

@Salsa I am reading your posts. You’re alluding to background I don’t have. Not sure what I’m supposed to do with that. And I am posting my reactions as I have them. Yes you’ve changed your stance on Wiki. But it was obvious to me even when you first started attacking there. I’m not going to see that positively now am I?

[Andresvmb]

we haven't yet played in a game where i got royally pissed off?

it's probably not the best use of my time, no, but i felt like that post was worthy of a response. i'm still holding out faith that i'll be able to correctly read three from it. a part of me is wondering if he's truly being genuine, though it's not a huge part.

As far as I can remember, no I don’t think I’ve seen you get truly aggravated.

[Andresvmb]

@Salsa I am reading your posts. You’re alluding to background I don’t have. Not sure what I’m supposed to do with that. And I am posting my reactions as I have them. Yes you’ve changed your stance on Wiki. But it was obvious to me even when you first started attacking there. I’m not going to see that positively now am I?

Do you remember that I joined late in this game and said didn’t read anything? Or you think I'm lying about it?

No I didn’t think you were lying about it. Scum do lie about dumb stuff sometimes but I didn’t think this was it.

[Andresvmb]

My

gera

meta,

Dwlee

was also there in that game but for some reason not considering this now:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87211

Btw your ISO in this game is a painful read. You were constantly asking to get voted and then hammered yourself while claiming Scum as Town.

[Andresvmb]

Im ready to elim any of them: ico, dwlee, datisi, salsa.
Should i vote salsa now?

Wiki I’m not going to lie to you.

I thought of you for a bit there as the village idiot and all that, making ridiculous arguments and constantly trying to aggravate players. But you also seem overly bloodthirsty, and frankly not particularly solvey or thoughtful.

[Andresvmb]

making ridiculous arguments

The arguments about Ico are solid and right.

Your argument with Datisi was plainly absurd. And calling them stupid was completely unwarranted. They very clearly weren’t saying that all people that fake claim are Town, but that yours had come across as Towny. I thought of it the same way but you didn’t call me stupid.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t like Dorsey throwing darts from the back of the room basically refusing to read much of anything, but I can’t for the life of me think of it as Scummy either. I just hate it.

[Andresvmb]

My

gera

meta,

Dwlee

was also there in that game but for some reason not considering this now:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87211

Btw your ISO in this game is a painful read. You were constantly asking to get voted and then hammered yourself while claiming Scum as Town.

Yes, I know. I'm talking about

gera

here whose playstyle seems similar.
And, I was experimenting that particular playstyle in that game (+ on a newbie game that time), normally I don’t play like this. You can check my other games.

The reason I’m bringing that up in particular is because even if you’re right, you make yourself tough to agree with if you’re constantly asking players to vote you. And you did try that here to some extent with Gamma who backed off.

[Andresvmb]

making ridiculous arguments

The arguments about Ico are solid and right.

Your argument with Datisi was plainly absurd. And calling them stupid was completely unwarranted. They very clearly weren’t saying that all people that fake claim are Town, but that yours had come across as Towny. I thought of it the same way but you didn’t call me stupid.

Andre,
Andre,
Andre,
The only thing is important now is here:

Andre, there is nothing ridiculous here:

I repeat again: Ico forgot his own opinion, voting Sely and me. He votes people who are townies for him, and these are not first rvs votes at all. This is 100% mafia behaviour.

There is nothing ridiculouse in this.

You’re talking to me as if you know my alignment. I am clearly re-evaluating your slot (and you’ve constantly hinted at me being Scummy btw) but now you feel the need to try and convince me of the one particular read you have? Why?

[Andresvmb]

What scum would do all the shit Wiki has done, especially newbscum?

In isolation I'd say this is Town Gamma, unless Gamma wants to pocket Wiki for some odd reason.

Re 767: I'm town.
Not sure about scum!

Datisi

yet and

Wiki

isn’t scum imo, which left

ico

but

GE

also voted

ico

, so I'm not sure about this also.

Scum need

Wiki

to be alive in this game. Scum!

GE

's buddy attempt isn’t that weird imo. Like

Dwlee

said,

Wiki

won't be night killed. So, if they get eliminated in the day phase, scum can use their defending

Wiki

thing as a way out.

UNVOTE: A50

VOTE: GE

so you think I'm trying to keep Wiki alive as a game-ending mislim? I mean, that's kinda reasonable to think that, but nah, I'm just keeping limbait town from getting yeeted. Your consistent problem with that feels like you're upset I'm stonewalling your mislim chance.

Then vote me!

I understand your point. 819 is still overly-confrontational. I’m going to admit something else - I actually thought Gamma backing off there was a bit Scummy. It’s a bit like trying to paint you in a poor light Salsa but then they just said something really wishy-washy like you’re a mixed bag and have other posts that are good so no? You might want to detail what you mean Gamma because obviously Salsa can be mis-executed which means there’s some incentive there not to push it too hard and let the Town fall for a mis-execution if Salsa is indeed Town.

[Andresvmb]

You’re talking to me as if you know my alignment. I am clearly re-evaluating your slot (and you’ve constantly hinted at me being Scummy btw) but now you feel the need to try and convince me of the one particular read you have? Why?

You are town mostly to anybody and Ico was changing opinion immediately just watching to your mouth (for example about dwlee). The only chance you are a scum with Ico is because you trs him.

Okay but why do you think I’m Town to most everyone? Maybe because I am being really obvious? And why did you feel the constant need to shade me and then say this?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Andresvmb]

I have a very self-centered reason to think Dorsey is Town.

[Andresvmb]

Out of all the slots they could have voted in this game, they vote the one slot that is being most consistently TR? I would agree their reasoning is shit and I definitely cannot defend their play so far. But the vote on me clearly stuck out to a lot of you, and that doesn’t seem like something Scum that’s lurking would do there.

[Andresvmb]

@Wiki we have a philosophical disagreement around what you’re perceiving on Ico but I definitely TR the fact that you’re paying attention to this in this way. I just think you need to be less repetitive and frankly, obnoxious.

I have a feeling Scum care about building a worldview that makes sense. I would argue Scum are less likely to express a TR of a slot and then turn around and vote that slot based on vibes they had or little explanation. It sticks out, so people like you will point it out and argue it’s Scummy. But it’s early in the game. Reads aren’t fully formed. It happens that people change their minds quickly in the early part of the game. I would argue your argument doesn’t seem correct in my mind.

Also, I’m not going to get into a massive back and forth over this. That’s my opinion as to why you might be wrong on Ico. But I feel much more uncertain about Ico’s alignment.

[Andresvmb]

Because I just figured one of Andres, Ico, or T3. Andres 0 votes on vanity wagon, T3 0 votes on leading wagon 1, Ico 0 votes on leading wagon 2

@Dorseey Can you expand on the meaning of this post? I guess I understand you’re arguing I could be Scum because I haven’t pushed a player no one else has pushed? What about the other ones?

[Andresvmb]

@Looker I think you need to quickly tell us what your early reactions are to the game once you have the time to skim.

[Andresvmb]

Interesting thought, though Dorsey didn't vote on any leading wagon till now. And they weren't lurking in the sense they tried to pass unobserved. Like, the vote on Icon and saying they are sheeping Wiki.
So, like voting here on a leading wagon would be even weirder.

Though I still think it’s a bit harder to come into the game and vote for a leading Town voice over say the second largest wagon or a player being more consistently SR as Scum, I do think the alternative viewpoint holds some merit. I’m just speculating based on what my experience has been, but objectively there isn’t a lot that would give away Dorsey’s alignment. Say the Scum Team has determined already that letting me be and then NK’ing me at some point in the game is what makes sense. Then having one of their members vote me is a real easy way to test whether there’s anybody in the Town that agrees (which could provide an opening), and if there isn’t, then they get to sit on a player that isn’t going to get executed soon.

Here’s what I’m looking for, and why I expressed the view that I did of Dorsey. In a game with 4 Scum, I would be urging my team to actually consolidate onto a Town and really avoid bussing this early. There’s no need, the Town are uncoordinated early, and this game has {geraintm, Dorsey, Salsa}. geraintm, as can be already seen, doesn’t actively solve D1. Dorsey isn’t really trying to make themselves heard and seems lost. And Salsa can quite obviously antagonize others, and has a history of self-voting. Assume for a minute 2 of those names are Town. With A50 also trying their best not to actively participate (even though they very much can), and Wiki polluting the thread with repetitive arguments, I would argue the gamestate is giving Scum a massive incentive to coordinate a mis-execution and try and convince the Town players that can more easily be manipulated of their righteous push.

And look at who happen to be the two leading wagons right now. If I had to guess, they’re both Town.

[Andresvmb]

Which is why Dorsey’s vote doesn’t strike me as Scummy. They’ve since moved it to A50 and they’re sitting there by themselves. I have a feeling Scum are more likely here to want to get a wagon going with a few members and get a bit vocal about it.

I have Selynee as Town, and Salsa as Town btw. I think Three is trying to solve, and they did come across to me as overly stubborn (which reminds me of myself funny enough).

I think the GE slot, one of {Datisi/DW}, T3, and Iconeum have some (most?) of the Scum. It’s an early perception, I don’t claim to be any good, and I could absolutely have the game upside down. It’s happened before, could happen again. If Ico/Datisi are both Scum, it could explain that early (and frankly, somewhat awkward) sorting, and the mutual TRs occurring (Datisi has posted enough that I’m going to have to re-read the ISO, but I can’t really say I’m convinced there’s a strong case to be made there about them being Scum, and I have TR Ico and I haven’t totally shaken those early vibes, but the latest posting isn’t convincing to me).

DW seems to me to be pushing too hard to me. That’s another ISO I am going to have to re-read, but it’s not solvey enough and almost overly confrontational from what I can recall.

And I don’t know what the hell to do about Wiki. I think they’re Town. I don’t think they’ll shut up. I think they’re not easily manipulated though. And they’re repeatedly hinting at some sort of role (it’s way too obvious not to mention it), which might make it so that they’re sorted anyway. I wouldn’t touch it.

[Andresvmb]

Salsa is just scummy my guy

I really just want salsa flipped and next day phase

Cause you're scum

Do you think I am? Because last I checked your story was that you were townreading me

Yea the thing is gera is playing differently this game than there so your "meta" is just a bad attempt at diffusing pressure on him

What are you seeing there dats

Fmpov gera has made some surface level posts and don't nothing townie since his extremely scummy entrance

And yes, meta bad, but I don't even think you can claim this would be meta town for him

Salsa I'm very confident you're gonna flip red but I know you have to pretend you won't and that is sad

Can we vote gera

What’s is the case on

gera

?

That he has a red role pm

Can we vote gera

I was, but apparently someone thinks I'm a better lim, so I'm just being a team player.

You can also vote salsa

Can we vote gera

Okay gamma is locktown now

Where?
As town, you can't be so sure on anyone but you're that sure on me on D1 already?? Why not voting me then and convince people to eliminate me if you're

that

sure?

Cause I'm voting gera, a different scum

These are not in order but you get the point. I started to think DW’s early aggression was Towny. I am reading these posts and thinking that they’re expressing too much certainty. And the post where they concede that Salsa could be Town? Fascinating after some of the other stuff that’s been said.

[Andresvmb]

Looker, why he replaced?

You can’t actually try and hint at the motivation behind a replacement. Just so that you avoid a warning.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: T3

I think we need a wagon here.

[Andresvmb]

I’m keeping my eye on DW too of course.

[Andresvmb]

Do you know how to read t3, Andres?

I yelled that they were Scum in a game absurdly loudly and I was correct. I’ve also correctly TR them before. But I have been wrong on them in the first game we played together (though I was right that they put out a bullshit role claim which frankly drove my suspicion).

I would say the main reason I’m voting there is because they have a complete opposite worldview to mine (though they TR me). I just think it’s a decent place to start.

[Andresvmb]

I give reasons, don't worry, Looker. Sometimes. Anyway, andres' assumptions are about how scum would be playing (no bussing I think?) and some other gamestatey things I don't agree with. The conclusion of those assumptions is that dorsey/gera/salsa are all town. I don't agree with the assumptions or the conclusions

I didn’t conclude Dorsey/geraintm/salsa are all Town because of the game state. I don’t think I’ve expressed a TR on geraintm at all actually. I think Dorsey could be Town, but there’s just not a lot there. I think Salsa is Town (that’s probably the only read I have amongst the three I would defend). And I’m not saying Scum wouldn’t put votes on each other under the right circumstances. What I’m saying is none of the main pushes Scum are going to make here are going to be on their buddies and I would be really impressed if there was meaningful hard bussing already happening. And I’m not finding it surprising at all that the leading wagons are players that will not defend themselves all that strongly, or don’t have a lot of content. That makes sense. There’s 4 Scum and not many mis-executions are needed to win. The incentive is there to push a low information slot D1 and get a leg up for the rest of the game.

[Andresvmb]

@Wiki @Selynee I want us to vote T3. Selynee you have a negative lean there. Wiki I don’t think you TR the slot either.

[Andresvmb]

Actually Selynee I think you’re already there. Wiki come join.

[Andresvmb]

@Looker you think T3 is possibly Scum. Can you join the wagon?

I want to apply pressure somewhere I actually SR and see what shakes out.

[Andresvmb]

where is my invite?

I think you could be Scum. I have you as highly uncertain. I need flips to sort you here I think actually.

[Andresvmb]

But hey if you want to vote T3 by all means.

[Andresvmb]

from "don't see a case for scum!them" to highly uncertain?

That didn’t mean I think Datisi is hard Town. It just means I can’t convince myself yet that Datisi is Scum. But I have been re-reading and I think Selynee is Town. Your post basically stating that everything Selynee had been posting in the early part of the game doesn’t sit well with me in hindsight. But I could be wrong, Selynee could be Scum, and you two I would argue are not SvS.

[Andresvmb]

^everything Selynee had been posting in the early part of the game sucked*

[Andresvmb]

what did i say that made you think i wasnt town.

the reason i voted you, the comment about voteparking wiki >_>

Ah, ok.

But if someone hard claims twice then anyone would say “if they back track from that they deserve to be punished “ right.

You all just seemed to know he was faking. I didnt

I mean you could have looked it up at the very least. I was 99% sure it wasn’t normal but I still checked it out just in case. The criticism you’re getting from Datisi is at the very least well-founded.

[Andresvmb]

from "don't see a case for scum!them" to highly uncertain?

That didn’t mean I think Datisi is hard Town. It just means I can’t convince myself yet that Datisi is Scum. But I have been re-reading and I think Selynee is Town. Your post basically stating that everything Selynee had been posting in the early part of the game doesn’t sit well with me in hindsight. But I could be wrong, Selynee could be Scum, and you two I would argue are not SvS.

i didn't take it to mean that, but it still felt as a way too stark contrast. do you actually take issue with anything specific or find my progression scummy or something? it's really annoying to have to respond to things this vague.

you still haven't responded about your salsa townread, unsure if you've missed it or whatever.

I can’t pin you down. That’s the truth. I’ve TR’ed you at times. And upon re-read I’ve SR you at times. I just don’t know. I want to believe you’re Town because my life would be a lot easier that way. But at this stage, I think it’s too early to tell. In spite of the fact that you have a lot of contributions. Gun to head? You’re probably Town and I’m going wrong somewhere.

And that’s why I haven’t answered on Salsa. If I’m going wrong anywhere, it’s probably there. They just managed y to get me off their back by being particularly outraged at my push on them (hinting really heavily that my SR of them based on their vote on Wiki was shit because they had clearly expressed that they hadn’t finished reading and when they did fully catch up, they rescinded that view).

I’m trying really hard to find like 3 Town I trust so that we can all vote together and put pressure somewhere and see what happens. So far I have {Wiki, Selynee} as the most likely players to be Town. Three would be my very best guess for Town. And I’m really torn on Salsa / A50. I’m TR’ing Looker’s entrance but I wasn’t TR’ing Gamma so I’m going to have to think hard about that one. And I don’t know what that says about Salsa (Salsa and Gamma/Looker probably not SvS).

[Andresvmb]

^my next very best for Town* [in reference to Three].

[Andresvmb]

Oy that fix. My next very best guess for Town**.

[Andresvmb]

I also don’t think I’m going to get much more out of this day. Those are the thoughts that I have thus far.

[Andresvmb]

Do you know how to read t3, Andres?

I yelled that they were Scum in a game absurdly loudly and I was correct. I’ve also correctly TR them before. But I have been wrong on them in the first game we played together (though I was right that they put out a bullshit role claim which frankly drove my suspicion).

I would say the main reason I’m voting there is because they have a complete opposite worldview to mine (though they TR me). I just think it’s a decent place to start.

In LN 232 I tried to bus my scumpartners so hard that I'd be limmed and they'd be cleared. So that game is just bad to meta me by

My argument isn’t based on meta. That should be pretty clear from my post.

[Andresvmb]

Gera is 100% scum.

They’re not 100% anything like stop with the garbage takes. When people make arguments based on meta to defend geraintm here, it’s not what you’re understanding at all. The argument isn’t geraintm is Town because they’re doing nothing D1. It’s geraintm has done this exact same thing as Town in the past, so it isn’t alignment indicative in the way you’re making it out to be. There’s a massive difference there. I don’t claim to know for sure what geraintm’s alignment is here. What I am arguing though is that geraintm has the capacity to town tell in future days, and there’s too much risk in pushing there right now given the structure of the game. geraintm isn’t getting a permanent pass from me. I just think there’s better slots to push.

[Andresvmb]

Also, what experienced player wants to admit that they failed to recognize that a Claim from a player was not within normal guidelines? I don’t understand why this demonstration of mild incompetence is getting such a strong reaction from you. It’s honestly baffling.

[Andresvmb]

It’s interesting that the minute that I started arguing for T3 to be pushed and they gather some votes, T3 starts posting a lot to increase their thread presence (probably to diffuse pressure). Not sure what it means yet.

[Andresvmb]

t3 is being weird and opportunistic-y and i'm still trying to figure out how to read him

@Datisi can you update this take? This is the last time you expressed a read on T3. And you’ve only asked a single question there after that as far as I can tell.

[Andresvmb]

It’s interesting that the minute that I started arguing for T3 to be pushed and they gather some votes, T3 starts posting a lot to increase their thread presence (probably to diffuse pressure). Not sure what it means yet.

P sure t3 just periodically does that

Okay. Do you think T3 is Town?

[Andresvmb]

What thing? You’re not invalidating anything. DW was questioning my ability to read you by asking me if I had read you accurately before. I answered that my accuracy wasn’t perfect, but that I had called you out as Scum before which means that I do have the ability at least to pinpoint whether the worldview you’re pushing makes any sense. Still, my read has little to do with that history. You haven’t invalidated shit.

[Andresvmb]

I haven't figured that out yet

T3 is someone I'll probably be able to read better later so I kinda want to shelve him if you're shelving gera

I disagree. geraintm doesn’t really have alignment indicative content. T3 certainly does. It’s very clearly not the same.

[Andresvmb]

I will never play with meta-arguments and I dont trust your meta-reads absolutely.
Gera is lock scum, hard vote. I dont believe his any single word. I explained why he is a scum.

Andre -1000 town points for defending gera.

I don’t fucking care for your Town points. And frankly I don’t care where you vote. Continue to be sidelined because you can’t get along even with completely obvious Town given how obnoxious you are playing. That’s totally up to you.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi I am just going to have to ISO Salsa at some point soon (again) and make up my mind as to whether Three’s push there holds merit or not. I am perceiving Three to be a competent player so I don’t want to dismiss their concerns with the slot, and my read has fluctuated wildly.

For the record, I am having a harder and harder time defending Dorsey here. Dorsey has definitely avoided giving any meaningful takes. Their vote on me did not seem well thought out at all (if you wanted to make a case against me, it’s not like I don’t have a decent amount of content), and A50 is intentionally playing to remain difficult to read, so the vote there isn’t based on much. And yeah, I am not seeing an interest in really solving the game. Since there’s a wagon building against them, and there’s a fair amount of high content slots that are piling on there (a lot of which I TR), I will certainly hammer it if it comes to it.

[Andresvmb]

Also, some of y'all are just rude, so you're no fun to play with, question, or read, but I mean, lol, that's life.

This, however, does not strike me as a thought that Scum would have here. Does that make sense? It’s not really a comment on any particular player, but it does tell me that Dorsey cares about how players treat each other in a way that most Scum never even think about (aggression between Town is usually conducive to a Scum victory after all).

[Andresvmb]

Having more votecounts would make it easier to follow the bandwagoners. I feel there are several wagons that build up rapidly out of nowhere.

Edit: I voted andres because I could. There's nothing saying he's town and nobody knows anything about the other players so I don't see the issue with voting and gauging reactions.

I’m a bit torn about this post. There’s a fundamental point Dorsey is making here that is valid - what if you are all wrong about well, me? Given a lack of information on D1, nothing really guarantees that the reads you have are correct. The problem, in my mind, isn’t so much that point. It’s the fact that you have to go with what you have at the end of the day. And I’m Town. Multiple players are reading me correctly, and they’re not all Scum. Yet you @Dorsey don’t really seem to question them on their read, or seem to want to draw any conclusions from that. It’s just - you all could be wrong, and I can vote wherever I want. Yes, you can. And when you did, did you learn anything?

The issue with Dorsey that a lot of you seem to be expressing is that (i) Dorsey is making *some* points, but they’re not really leading anywhere, and generally speaking, Dorsey is not responding to questions or explaining themselves. Which makes them hard to scrutinize (+Scum in my book too). So, @Dorsey, if you don’t want to get executed (and you’re starting to feel to me like a compromise execution), then perhaps you need to stop playing the victim and provide some answers.

[Andresvmb]

For the record, I am having a harder and harder time defending Dorsey here. .... ............. I will certainly hammer it if it comes to it.

Funny

Dude, I’m Town and your read of my slot is fucking dreadful. I’m ignoring you for now but I am slowly losing my patience with your slot.

[Andresvmb]

like i think i've won most of my recent scumgames? (by recent i mean 3 months lol)

either way you're voting me for disagreeing with you but you aren't pausing to actually invalidate my reasoning

You’re almost making an argument as to why we should execute you.

Look, us disagreeing on a bunch of reads doesn’t necessarily mean you’re Scum. That’s obvious. I have gotten a lot of reads wrong in the past, even when I’m paying attention and reading carefully. But I am having specific issues with your reads in that not only am I disagreeing, or think they’re premature perhaps, but they’re also hard to scrutinize. And maybe this is a play style thing. For instance, you’ve made the argument that depending on the level of effort, some players could be Town (Looker in 1581), or Scum (A50 in 514 and 1571, who I agree is not trying particularly hard and is openly admitting to not reading, but also had what I felt was a Towny post in 767). Like I’ll ask you - How can you possibly know that A50’s excuse in 1264 isn’t genuine? You’ve also changed your view of A50 without really explaining it much, just recognizing that you have inconsistencies in your views (see for example, 1299 for what you had previously said about A50). And it’s not like A50 posted all that much between 1299 and 1571. In fact I don’t think they have any posts at all. So that just makes it seem like your read there is entirely made up.

I also don’t understand 1184. Not when you later make 1580 saying you’re still SR’ing Iconeum (and where did you initially express that read? I can’t find it. Is it 376?). Or your attack on 956 regarding my read of Salsa which you immediately decided to back up after I explained it in 959. Particularly after your 936. It’s almost as if you’re just trying to cause chaos instead of actually reading anybody properly. You’ve also shaded Three (who I TR), didn’t follow up on that all that much (just 1346 as far as I can tell), and ended up agreeing without expressing much of a read there in 527.

Your read of DW early in the game also seemed a bit TMI’ish, but I didn’t disagree with it then (I’m just being cautious about DW, that’s all).

All in all, you’ve shaded A50, Three, Salsa, Datisi, Ico, Dorsey, and Selynee. Even to me, this seems overly aggressive and yes, opportunistic.

[Andresvmb]

I'm fine with dying, it's really not that serious. Clearly I struck a chord with scum since I'm being wagoned over geraintm and Almost50, so do what you will with that. This random "provide answers" bit is cheap, inconsistent and hypocritical - answers to what?

Answers to questions asked directly of you. It’s like you’re intentionally not reading. You were asked by both Datisi and I to explain your groupings in that one post you have were you indicate where you think Scum are. You never did. This isn’t hard what.

[Andresvmb]

Sigh.

@Dorsey say I think you’re Town here and willing to listen to you. Would you mind explaining 1317 to me? I want to better understand what you’re seeing in those groups.

[Andresvmb]

I don't have the paper anymore, but I pretty much wrote all the names in color pencil while doing homework and put all the same color names in the same bracket. I had no idea it'd be so groundbreaking and controversial.

It’s not about it being groundbreaking or controversial. I’m just trying to understand how you arrived where you did, see if I agree. It helps me read you to some extent (despite you calling a bunch of this worthless rhetoric), and it might make me reconsider in certain places.

[Andresvmb]

I feel there's scum in each group [Andres/Iconeum/T3], [Three/Salsabil/Dwlee], and [Datisi/Almost50].

No. With these groupings, you are basically saying that you don’t think T3, Ico and I are all Scum together for example. You’re also basically saying that Three, Salsa, and DW are probably not all Scum together. Otherwise, it would be hard for the groupings you’ve created to throw out 4 Scum. I want to understand your thought process. That’s all.

[Andresvmb]

Gera plays weird always

I think you need to make a genuine effort to try and sort T3 here.

Also, if you assume Dorsey is Town, what do you think that points to?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Dorsey

Ok

UNVOTE: Wiki

VOTE: Dorsey

I don't really get the hostility. I thought this was supposed to be fun.

VOTE: Andresvmb

VOTE: dorsey

good goooooood

if dorsey is town, i will destroy these slots

Why do you make no mention of Datisi here? Or Three?

[Andresvmb]

@Andres do you honestly like the sheeple you have with you?

Doesn't dorsey look like a juicy wagon to you?
I'd be down running up Looker as an alternative, what do you think about that?

Dorsey is now a bad execution. I hope you can see that yeah? Which means, you should reconsider your worldview a bit. I know I am.

[Andresvmb]

@Andres do you honestly like the sheeple you have with you?

Doesn't dorsey look like a juicy wagon to you?
I'd be down running up Looker as an alternative, what do you think about that?

Dorsey is now a bad execution. I hope you can see that yeah? Which means, you should reconsider your worldview a bit. I know I am.

Btw I’m engaging you directly because I think you’re Town. I ISO’ed you, and you seem to actively want to diffuse arguments at times in ways perhaps you wouldn’t as Scum. Like you engaged in a back and forth with Wiki, but you ended up trying to lighten up the mood instead of raising the stakes. I TR that. I also think the way you’ve approached T3 is genuine (you could hard SR there given some of the things T3 has said, but you don’t). I guess it’s possible you and T3 are distancing (which might explain why you seem to refuse to want to vote there despite having good reasons to), but I’m not perceiving it that way.

I think you have too much of a soft spot for Datisi, and I would watch out for that. I’ve also downgraded Wiki, but as much as I try to see them as Scum, I still think the amount of nonsense they’re pushing is diminishing their influence in a way Scum might care not to. Yelling geraintm is 100% Scum is just totally absurd. And they seem to lose interest too quickly after pushing slots with massive amounts of confidence (see the push on DW, Datisi, or even the push on you to some extent).

[Andresvmb]

So where does that leave me? Probably somewhere like:

Lean Town
{Selynee, Dwlee99, Dorsey, Iconeum}
Slight Lean Town
{Three, Salsabil Faria, geraintm}
Neutral
{Almost50, Wiki}
Slight Lean Scum
{T3, Datisi}
Lean Scum
{ }
Uncertain
{Looker [Gamma Emerald]}

[Andresvmb]

Andres I see you also have too many townreads

Yeah. It’s a problem.

I would say I trust that tier of Lean Town. Everyone else could be Scum. I’m expressing positive leans in other places because I see some positive pushes, or I’m getting some good vibes. I wanted to more strongly TR Three, but they did vote Dorsey there and I’m fairly sure Dorsey is Town (and I also have Salsa as a positive Lean).

I think it’s way too early to really put 4 SRs out there and pretend I have an excellent sense of what the Scum Team is. I don’t. I’m hoping we can clear some players through association/mechanics in future days.

[Andresvmb]

Lean Town
{Selynee, Dwlee99, Iconeum}
Slight Lean Town
{Three, geraintm, Wiki, Dorsey}
Neutral
{Almost50, Salsabil Faria}
Slight Lean Scum
{T3, Datisi}
Lean Scum
{ }
Uncertain
{Looker [Gamma Emerald]}

?

You should place me somewhere.

[Andresvmb]

Lean Town
{Selynee, Dwlee99, Iconeum}
Slight Lean Town
{Three, geraintm, Wiki, Dorsey}
Neutral
{Almost50, Salsabil Faria}
Slight Lean Scum
{T3, Datisi}
Lean Scum
{ }
Uncertain
{Looker [Gamma Emerald]}

?

You should place me somewhere.

But yeah otherwise I can see why you’re downgrading in some places and upgrading in others.

[Andresvmb]

You're at the top

Why am I one of your top townreads again? Wasn't there something about me being sus for too strong emotions?

I’m not completely discounting what I said previously. I just think that on balance, my argument is weak. I would typically TR the way you’ve approached the day. I don’t think you’re trying to coast. You’re re-evaluating. It would be disingenuous for me to argue that I think overall it points to you being Scum.

I also think there’s too many attempts from certain players to pocket you in a way or divert your attention away from them. T3 has hard locked you as Town early in the game. Datisi said they’re vibing very well with you. Ico agreed with the TR of your slot. Not only are all those slots probably not all Scum, but since I think some of them are actually suspicious, it points to the Scum Team deciding pushing you is a bad strategy D1.

[Andresvmb]

Not to mention that Three has you as a top TR @DW.

Chances are, my suspicion was way off, and the Scum are knowingly avoiding you. It’s part of the reason I TR Selynee actually (they’ve expressed misgivings of your slot). It’s the sort of thing that would be a total waste coming from Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I’m really not sure why we’re letting T3 get away with this Scummy behavior.

[Andresvmb]

And @Andres, because clearly Datisi is the boss.

You know we can vote wherever we want right? Every single possible wagon has been tried by certain players but nobody is really touching my T3 case, there hasn’t been much of a disagreement from anyone really, and T3 is just constantly sheeping whatever they think will get through instead of them.

[Andresvmb]

At this point I think I know what A50 is doing (if i'm wrong then i'll look really stupid postgame )
I wasn't entirely sure if what he was doing comes from scum a50 or town a50.

Datisi thinks anyone with a read of A50 is lying basically, but somehow neglects to address this? Why?

[Andresvmb]

956 I didn't see Salsa scum, then I saw your actual reasoning.

You know how absurd this is in light of the fact that T3 posted 936?

What is happening here?

[Andresvmb]

Chances are, my suspicion was way off, and the Scum are knowingly avoiding you. It’s part of the reason I TR Selynee actually (they’ve expressed misgivings of your slot). It’s the sort of thing that would be a total waste coming from Scum.

i'm too stupid for this, please explain

oh yeah, i was also annoyed at you because you lowkey seem to be ignoring what i'm asking about *why* you had such huge problems with my early sel suspicion

there's a voice telling me you're actually trying to shut me out by ignoring me, i don't want to listen to it but it's getting louder

If the Scum Team perceives that a player is hard to get executed, or the wagon will seem very obviously Scum driven upon the flip of a loud Town player, then they’re far more likely to simply avoid that player and NK them, while giving them a TR. I am perceiving that a lot of players have a TR of DW, who started the game out probing and aggressive, because (in part) DW was broadly perceived as Town. So, players still expressing reservations, though not pushing them all that hard, are most likely wasting their time. If I wanted to show nuance as Scum, I guess I could act paranoid around DW while still ultimately TR there. But it’s just much easier to express a TR and move on.

If I see that a player is acting Townier and Townier as the game goes on, to the point were people are forced to change their stances around a player, then early attempts to sideline them or push them for execution could be thought of as coming from Scum. After all, Scum want to get a mis-execution above having to execute their own Partners. It’s the same reasoning I would apply to anyone that pushed Dorsey in hindsight (particularly if Dorsey flips Town, but I have to assume it in part given my perception of the slot).

Does that make sense?

[Andresvmb]

At this point I think I know what A50 is doing (if i'm wrong then i'll look really stupid postgame )
I wasn't entirely sure if what he was doing comes from scum a50 or town a50.

Datisi thinks anyone with a read of A50 is lying basically, but somehow neglects to address this? Why?

how is that a read on A50
it literally quotes 'i have no idea from which allignment this comes'

They’re saying that now, after calling A50 Scum and saying their WIM indicates Scum and shading there repeatedly. Why is that being ignored?

[Andresvmb]

@Andres do you honestly like the sheeple you have with you?

Doesn't dorsey look like a juicy wagon to you?
I'd be down running up Looker as an alternative, what do you think about that?

Dorsey is now a bad execution. I hope you can see that yeah? Which means, you should reconsider your worldview a bit. I know I am.

i don't see it? Dorsey is still refusing to work with anyone, blaming players and basicly the whole system because they are under pressure

lashing out, even saying something like 'why are you looking at me, there were more influencial votes then mine' which pings me

It’s the defeatism, and not the lashing out that to me seemed very obviously coming from Town. There’s some players that can really pull that manipulative nonsense (aka Pooky), but it’s hard to fake. So I’m TR’ing it for now and looking elsewhere.

[Andresvmb]

T3's been shading a good number of people, including myself

but he hasn't really stuck his neck out on any them that I can remember, including the ones that actually got pressured so I don't know what to make of it

at the very least he's here and talkative and responding and stuff
if i seriously scumread his actions i'd be all over his ass trust me

I’m SR’ing the shit out of the slot. Shading half the game (literally) and still not acknowledging that fact or really providing some more detail on where they stand now, or providing more TRs than what, DW, and going with whatever they think can get executed, why is this not being SR’ed?

[Andresvmb]

As for Datisi… weakspot definitely. But he probably coulda just wrecked me for an easy miselim on day 1 tbh. Or at least gave it a shot without losing too much face. I'm fine townreading him right now

See here is where I don’t agree.

I’m not saying Datisi is Scum btw. I just don’t know. What I am saying is that I think you underestimate how difficult it would be for Datisi to push for your execution as Scum and you as Town, and not look like crap for it. There’s more than 1 player in this game that knows that you and Datisi like to play together, can read each other reasonably well, and have won games together on the back of that. We won a game because Datisi defended your slot

hard

when I was SR’ing you, and it made me change my mind. I’ve experienced it. And you just don’t go quietly into the night. I know you would be putting out (as you have already btw) really direct questions as to why Datisi is doing what they’re doing, out of everyone else. I don’t buy in the least that Datisi thinks they could get you mis-executed easily and not pay any price for it.

[Andresvmb]

like i think i've won most of my recent scumgames? (by recent i mean 3 months lol)

either way you're voting me for disagreeing with you but you aren't pausing to actually invalidate my reasoning

You’re almost making an argument as to why we should execute you..

bad post. this is one of those "i didnt want to eliminate you, you made me do it,oh whoops you are green" type of posts

1 naughty point for Andres

You need to focus your energy on slots that are actually possibly Scum. You’ve played with me enough that yeah fine, you don’t like to express early reads, but you really should be able to tell that I’m not Scum. At some point this starts to look Scummy to me.

[Andresvmb]

^unfortunately geraintm, I also know we aren’t particularly good at reading each other. So meh.

[Andresvmb]

wouldn't it be really fucking hilarious if i now said that i think dorsey is town?

i think it would

(:

VOTE: three

scum!three spews dorsey!town and three just nosedived in my reads

will properly explain within the next 1-5 business hours, stay tuned

I did what now? Dorsey is one of my scum reads?? You

just

said I was town ten hours prior to this, and now you're convinced that I'm scum? This is such a wild progression lmao. The more you post about me the more I just think you're full of shit.

VOTE: Datisi

And for the record, Three actually has a point here. Datisi arguing that Three nosedived because they spewed Dorsey Town really doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: A50

ok master Wiki

guide me to victory senpai

Frankly Ico I’m finding this a little baffling.

[Andresvmb]

How about this....give me your most convincing scumread and like 2 or 3 sentences and I'll tell you if you're town off of it

^@t3

I want to see a response to this.

[Andresvmb]

@Ico - Because I'm human
@Andres - I'm cool with flipping T3 as well, it's just that if he's evil, at least he's relatively nice about it. And he doesn't seem that influential. Datisi is swinging wagons.

P-edits

If you want Datisi executed, you’re going to have to attack A50’s case as to why Datisi is Town.

And Datisi being influential is a good thing provided we can better ascertain their alignment. Which we should be able to do at some point this game.

[Andresvmb]

Andres - why is datisi not town to you? I feel he's posted enough to warrant at least a day 1 townlean, even for you

Datisi has voted Selynee (who I TR’ed), Three (who I TR’ed, though not strongly), Dorsey (who I also TR’ed based on the emotions I’m perceiving in their content), and geraintm (Null). Yes Datisi has massive amounts of content and is showing some Towny frustration. And we agree on some core (rather uncontroversial) reads. Except on Wiki btw - I would accept this level of posting coming from Wiki from a relative beginner, but since they’ve claimed to be experienced, it could very well be intentional to drive Town apathy (towards the game and their slot). Though continue including all the caveats I have expressed previously on the slot. So yeah, it’s the votes more than anything else that are giving me pause. But again, I could be wrong you know about how I’m seeing the game. Datisi could be Town and have a better sense than me. It’s why I’m not loudly advocating for Datisi’s execution. Just expressing reservations.

[Andresvmb]

Salsa loves A50 so much she gave him her Wi-Fi password

@Andres - How is influential scum good?

I didn’t say influential Scum was good. That would be idiotic. It’s definitely easier to spot though. And you’re basically assuming Datisi is certain Scum. I am not assigning such high odds to Datisi flipping Scum. However, if Datisi is not Scum, them being influential is a good thing. That’s more what I meant.

[Andresvmb]

How about this....give me your most convincing scumread and like 2 or 3 sentences and I'll tell you if you're town off of it

three

he made some posts that came off as manipulative
he is approaching the game from a pov that assumes stuff

Outside of DW who you have Town locked from meta, who do you think is Town?

[Andresvmb]

If I see that a player is acting Townier and Townier as the game goes on, to the point were people are forced to change their stances around a player, then early attempts to sideline them or push them for execution could be thought of as coming from Scum. After all, Scum want to get a mis-execution above having to execute their own Partners. It’s the same reasoning I would apply to anyone that pushed Dorsey in hindsight (particularly if Dorsey flips Town, but I have to assume it in part given my perception of the slot).

Does that make sense?

@Datisi, this paragraph is literally the explanation as to why I’m still dragging your Selynee vote despite your re-evaluation. You can be annoyed all you want, but stop repeating ad naseum I’m not responding to something when I have.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t buy in the least that Datisi thinks they could get you mis-executed easily and not pay any price for it.

i can guarantee you that scumtisi has never in his life once thought that.

that being said, iconeum is probably the number one threat to scum!me in this playerlist. while solo pushing town!ico to execution is something scum!me isn't suicidal enough for, you're mistaken if you think that i wouldn't try to take the opportunity to *help* get him misyeeted if others started scumreading him. hell, i've done it before.

also, inb4 anyone asks, "how do you know so well what you would do against town!ico? r u scumz?", i had a huge red streak last year, and about 2/3rds of those games had town!ico in them. so like, i know.

Note that my comment is more targeted at Ico than you. I actually do think you’re cognizant of the fact that you would pay a price if you tried to force a mis-execution of Ico in the hypothetical situation that you’re Scum and Ico is Town. Fundamentally, I’m trying to better understand the lack of uncertainty that Iconeum is expressing around your slot and alignment. Because the main argument they’re using for determining that you’re Town seems weak to me. There’s other indicators, Ico has alluded to them, and that’s all good, but I do think this is a bit curious.

[Andresvmb]

@andres

if you see... basically any of my scumgames then you'll see that as scum i tend to bus and townread a lot of people early
the exact opposite of what i'm doing here

How could I possibly know that you aren’t bussing here? Fine if you want to argue that you would have more TRs, but the other part of your argument is impossible for me to know unless I had perfect knowledge of who is Town and who is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

If I see that a player is acting Townier and Townier as the game goes on, to the point were people are forced to change their stances around a player, then early attempts to sideline them or push them for execution could be thought of as coming from Scum. After all, Scum want to get a mis-execution above having to execute their own Partners. It’s the same reasoning I would apply to anyone that pushed Dorsey in hindsight (particularly if Dorsey flips Town, but I have to assume it in part given my perception of the slot).

Does that make sense?

@Datisi, this paragraph is literally the explanation as to why I’m still dragging your Selynee vote despite your re-evaluation. You can be annoyed all you want, but stop repeating ad naseum I’m not responding to something when I have.

okay first of all, expecting that i'm gonna connect this paragraph as your answer to a completely different question is way too high expectations of me

on a more serious note, this feels like working backwards. like, there's no way to determine who is town who genuinely had that progression, and who is scum that went "oh shit, there goes my misyeet, better townread them". which might be the point considering you're not making a huge deal out of it, but it's like. making a lot of assumptions, when it's also possible we live in a town!sel world where no scum ever scumread her.

mind doing the one for geraintm now?

I don’t think your vote for geraintm points any which way (or at least not looking back). I was just trying to make sure I was not ignoring votes that don’t necessarily agree with what I put forth. If geraintm flips Town and Three flips Town maybe I’ll start thinking my early suspicions weren’t all that off but I can’t fault you for that particular vote. I’ve already expressed some mild suspicion of geraintm so if anything that’s a positive. I will also say that I don’t expect to be alive before geraintm flips haha so maybe for whoever is still in the game have a think around this if Datisi is also around.

[Andresvmb]

But yes, I was working backwards. Re-evaluating or re-reading the game with new information is always just that. Sometimes I find it useful to make assumptions as to who is Town, and what could be happening in such a case.

[Andresvmb]

And @Andres, because clearly Datisi is the boss.

You know we can vote wherever we want right? Every single possible wagon has been tried by certain players but nobody is really touching my T3 case, there hasn’t been much of a disagreement from anyone really, and T3 is just constantly sheeping whatever they think will get through instead of them.

how is what i did sheeping

Your extended case for Three is coming after they’ve been pushed loudly by other players. It’s not original. Sheeping is the wrong word. It’s more like you’re piling on there. Your detailed case against Three comes in 1883, though you were already drafting it around 1849. Up to that point, you had signaled you SR there (374, 1346, though only partly contradicted by 1299), but nothing really substantial. Well, before your extended case, Three seemed to be gathering more meaningful pressure by Datisi and to a lesser extent Iconeum (though Ico’s vote on Three in 1876 comes before your extended case but after you had hit submit on a bunch of quotes, which was clearly signaling your intent to build a case there).

[Andresvmb]

Ugh I’m going to be honest - I’m starting to not really like where this is headed. If I subscribe to the theory that Scum at least try to maintain a semblance of a coherent worldview, T3 really doesn’t fit that well at all. There’s way too many contradictions in that ISO as it pertains to their reads for me to think that they care.

[Andresvmb]

956 I didn't see Salsa scum, then I saw your actual reasoning.

You know how absurd this is in light of the fact that T3 posted 936?

What is happening here?

dlfjlfklakalsdkajdklakdad

i didn't see why dwlee or whoever i responded to thought salsa was scum

Okay I get that now. You weren’t expressing a read in that earlier post.

I think you need a crash course in punctuation.

[Andresvmb]

956 I didn't see Salsa scum, then I saw your actual reasoning.

You know how absurd this is in light of the fact that T3 posted 936?

What is happening here?

dlfjlfklakalsdkajdklakdad

i didn't see why dwlee or whoever i responded to thought salsa was scum

Okay I get that now. You weren’t expressing a read in that earlier post.

I think you need a crash course in punctuation.

Wait no hold on. That post is you putting a vote down for Salsa saying you didn’t like their tone. How could that possibly be you questioning someone else about their read?

[Andresvmb]

T3's been shading a good number of people, including myself

but he hasn't really stuck his neck out on any them that I can remember, including the ones that actually got pressured so I don't know what to make of it

at the very least he's here and talkative and responding and stuff
if i seriously scumread his actions i'd be all over his ass trust me

I’m SR’ing the shit out of the slot. Shading half the game (literally) and still not acknowledging that fact or really providing some more detail on where they stand now, or providing more TRs than what, DW, and going with whatever they think can get executed, why is this not being SR’ed?

i point out scummy posts about townreads but don't usually vote them for it

i've said this like 5 times

And how is this even remotely accurate? You’ve put votes down for Three, Selynee (377), A50 (514, 1834), Salsa (936, 1342), Dorsey (1191). Which is 2 less votes than the slots you’ve actually shaded (no votes for Datisi who you seem to TR and Ico, who you haven’t really indicated how you feel).

My problem is that what you’re saying you have done doesn’t really match all that well with your actions so far. Sure, you can make an argument for how Scum you would play and it’s going to take a while for that to reveal itself, but don’t bullshit me. I don’t think I’m seeing total ghosts even if I’m wrong.

[Andresvmb]

I would like to see some more meaningful votes from {DW, Looker, geraintm, A50}, and to a lesser extent Salsa. Wiki and DW are definitely not getting executed today, and Looker and DW are just straight up not voting with 2 days to go.

[Andresvmb]

And A50, Wiki is definitely not James. Their posting styles are vastly different.

[Andresvmb]

this is extremely annoying

andres is tunneling me for... good ish reasons but he's wrong
wiki is sheeping along for really terrible reasons

Yeah, I don’t know.

UNVOTE:

I want to see more consolidation. I’ll make a firmer decision tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

geraintm’s little tantrum there trying to avoid any major wagon has not gone unnoticed by me btw.

[Andresvmb]

Unfortunately guys I am having a bit of a medical issue (nothing serious) so I can’t say whether I’ll be able to read much today.

I have re-read Three’s ISO and I’m thinking that’s possibly where I might have to end up. I hate having to admit this and I don’t want to get into too much of a conversation right now about it since I have a headache, but Three has perhaps been a bit narrow in their pursuits in a way that perhaps I’m choosing to ignore.

Frankly I think this game is hard. I don’t have anything I would be confident executing, and I started feeling better about T3 though I can’t quite explain it. Something about acknowledging that my reasons weren’t idiotic I just found disarming.

[Andresvmb]

I definitely think one of {Datisi, Three} is possibly Scum. I don’t think they both are.

[Andresvmb]

At this point I’ve tried to read everyone carefully and my views haven’t dramatically changed from the tiering I’ve posted earlier. Basically right now I’m flipping Datisi and Three, and keeping everything else relatively constant. T3 perhaps not as low. I am still trusting {Selynee, DW}, and I want them to help me out here. Iconeum I trust to some extent but it’s not as strong of a read.

[Andresvmb]

I think A50 feels a bit better, and their claim is direct enough that it shouldn’t get executed today ever. geraintm is lower purely because they clearly aren’t trying to help the Town garner information which we actually need here.

[Andresvmb]

So I’ll VOTE: Three and hope for the best.

Sorry if I screwed this up Three. I did really think you were Town earlier but I just don’t know - I have to vote somewhere.

[Andresvmb]

If I don’t come back before the end of the day it’s because I haven’t recovered haha but it’s on the low probability side.

[Andresvmb]

I mean, if people had just actually paid attention to literally anything I posted, we could have had a chance.

[Andresvmb]

And fairly Scum sided is some understatement. This was absurdly Scum sided for here. Being Scum here probably felt amazing. Even when you’re directly called out you don’t even get executed after everyone that’s been targeting you is NK’ed or executed and flips Town.

[Andresvmb]

I mean, if people had just actually paid attention to literally anything I posted, we could have had a chance.

I wasn't not limming Wiki

My thoughts are posted to the Dead Thread there. I don’t want to just bash Wiki - I think Wiki needs to rethink how they approach pushing players. But they were also like never Scum haha and despite their poor play, Town should have tried for the more obvious ones. I mean when I call out 3/4 Scum Day 1 in Gamma/T3/Datisi, and then say that Ico/Datisi could have done that awkward distancing as Scum buddies, and we end up with back to back executions of Three/Wiki/Dorsey, I can’t defend the play. We really didn’t need PRs, just common sense.

[Andresvmb]

I agree on common sense, just I am not not eliminating someone who counter claimed jailkeeper there no matter how townie they seemed

You don’t if you want to win above holding up certain (valid) rules. I’m notoriously bad at this since I also just feel like railroading anyone that makes an obvious fake claim or does something really idiotic and anti-Town, so I’m not going to lecture anyone here. But the Scum did reveal themselves here.

[Andresvmb]

@DW you were also a Town leader and clear Town to me so we just couldn’t agree on a correct execution and that just sucks. I’ve had T3 nailed as Scum a few times now. I need to be just a bit more confident there.

[Andresvmb]

all i'm saying, there's a reason why there was so little discussion about who we're gonna kill night 1. andres, stop rolling town against me >_>

as much as i'd like to say for myself that i would've figured out wiki was town here if i was town, i know i most likely wouldn't.

You were definitely shitting your pants when I called out every vote you had put down. And I was right too.

[Andresvmb]

Ugh once Three flipped Town and I was NK’ed @Datisi you should have been executed. And then you start looking at Ico/T3 for sure and have a chance.