Open 834: Trust Fall - Game Over

[Prism]

Fundamentally, the town is voting for people they think are town and it's the scum's job to break into that. It's a reversal of the norm, where scum want town voted out and to vote each other. I don't think it's too hard to adjust to or play around, though town does have a branching options in the form of unilateral decisions vs. cooperative decided pairings.

I don't really see anything I find worth commenting on so far. The current mode of conversation doesn't suit my tastes and I'll chip in when I think of one I prefer.

[Prism]

No, and I would have given them immediately if I did. The same goes for scumreads. I do not play close to my chest or opaquely.

[Prism]

it's the scum's job to break into that

You mean like you're trying to do with that verbose explanation?

You are the only one at the table who even has a chance of falling for that to begin with, and you did not.

[Prism]

I doubt it.

[Prism]

Now I have a scumlean!

[Prism]

I've had many, many thoughts on how to play this game: I've considered declaring that I will not trust or accept a trust at all, I've considered declaring the same but until 4 way. I haven't really arrived at a final answer — it's going to hinge largely on the other players — but the one guarantee is that I will not be exiting early. I will not accept any proposals prior to Day 3, and will adamantly resist any attempts to compel me to accept.

This is partially out of pride, but partially out because I cannot describe how ecstatic I am to begin.

[Prism]

I think Prism is my first townread which doesn't have any irony attached.

I don't see why. My last post is literally copy-pasted from the last run of the game.

[Prism]

I've had many, many thoughts on how to play this game: I've considered declaring that I will not trust or accept a trust at all, I've considered declaring the same but until 4 way. I haven't really arrived at a final answer — it's going to hinge largely on the other players — but the one guarantee is that I will not be exiting early. I will not accept any proposals prior to Day 3, and will adamantly resist any attempts to compel me to accept.

Can't believe i trustfelled scum for 2 min 35 second 302 miniseconds.

I wouldn't accept as scum until solo so don't worry.

[Prism]

I think Prism is my first townread which doesn't have any irony attached.

I don't see why. My last post is literally copy-pasted from the last run of the game.

not what I liked

And with zero explication or guided correction we're really going places!

[Prism]

I think Prism is my first townread which doesn't have any irony attached.

I don't see why. My last post is literally copy-pasted from the last run of the game.

not what I liked

And with zero explication or guided correction we're really going places!

I don't townread policy stuff anyway

Good to know you were in that game.

I was not, but you were!

[Prism]

Why not?

petapan isn't here so I can't own him

[Prism]

I also, on occasion, make largely unsuccessful forays into humor

[Prism]

The bigger point is the worst should probably just explain his read rather than play pedantic keep-away but he obviously doesn't want to, so sure.

[Prism]

I didn't really pay all that much attention to that post either time until now. I understand why it's cerebral to Faker and apparently also Prism but it doesn't scratch any itches for me.

It is not a sincere belief. I will leave essentially whenever I feel like it, if I am able.

[Prism]

Anyway, I figured I'd see how things played out and started and figure out how to play it from there.

I'm really curious about this. Maybe you're having fun horsing around with Pooky but there isn't really a solve intent.

If I were scum, you don't know how much I would appreciate this. Your presence in games is enjoyable, even when you're a murderer, but here as scum I wouldn't have the sweet release of an early elimination when I made myself obvious. I'd just have to sit around waiting til the end. So, yeah the company would be nice.

I am town though!

This makes my head tilt a bit, too, because while you don't prefer scum your scumgame is not weak.

[Prism]

Elaborating on my first line: By "solve intent" I mean you haven't really shown much interest in the meaning of interactions or in poking at places beyond the theory question to me. Perhaps that's my fault for shrugging it off rather than making my arrogance more transparent; the genuine answer would be that I have full confidence that I can get townread whenever I want and would prefer to let my partner go first.

[Prism]

Why not?

petapan isn't here so I can't own him

I was just wondering because I thought you preferred going out first?

I missed this. On EM I would get policied virtually every game barring mechanical clears. This doesn't happen on MS, and my mindset has shifted accordingly. I like to trade myself for two+ miselims, and I'd love to showcase that style in games sometime, though.

[Prism]

See you responded Tammy, have a call in 10 minutes so the rest of the catchup will have to wait a few hours sorry.

[Prism]

I actually did get to show that style of play off a bit in my last Mini Normal with Pooky, but sadly did not get a chance to carry it through.

[Prism]

I'm not solving right now. I'm not really one to attempt to solve in the first few pages of the game.

I don't like to do it, nor am I good at it.

I typically think most people look scummy in the first few pages of the game because I can't tell the difference between people pretending to solve and people trying to get the game started. Unless something really jumps out at me, like your entrance in Warehouse 13, I pretty much view everything early game as neutral noise that I'll look back at later when I actually get serious. I used to try because I thought I needed to be aggressive to be town read, but I hated it, so now I play in a way that I enjoy and is comfortable for me.

I am so confused but I guess there is much to learn about a Tammatha. I feel like this is scummy but I will give it more time.

[Prism]

I understood what you meant and

was expecting you to call me out for it.

literally what

The theory question wasn't so much of a theory question as me trying to understand your mindset. That's not quite right, but I've drank a lot of tea and too much caffeine makes me tweaky and that's the best I got. I can't quite word what exactly I was looking for with that question or if it would have helped me in any way, but I'm pretty sure you've stated before that you prefer to be the first one to go in a mafia team which I thought was interesting because you do have a strong scum game. So, you saying that you would prefer to go last felt a little incongruous with that previous statement and I wondered if it was due to the game mechanic or if it could be alignment relevant.

I agree that the incongruity was worth questioning, but do not know how to interpret the response given how wildly offbase some of this has been to me.

While the difference was explained more by the EM vs. MS treatment of my play trust fall is a setup that it doesn't work as well in mechanically, either, as you can't induce town to burn miselims like crazy and instead have to more actively convince them your partner is town.

[Prism]

(

prism

, cool cookie)
(pooky,

prism

)
(everyone else)
(tammy)
()
heres some helpful brackets for later to express my reads guys

?

[Prism]

i don't think I can emotionally recover if Tammy really is mafia here

Do you think anything she's done so far is particularly towny or is this just horsing around?

[Prism]

also i for some reason wrote prism twice
the top prism in my brackets is meant to be wisdom

damnit ok

[Prism]

I've literally never misread Wisdom or Prism in my life

I will circle back to this another day.

[Prism]

I still have concerns but will give you space and time rather than grill you at the moment.

[Prism]

Fundamentally I'm a lot more curious about your reads on other players, and will gladly use those reads like a dirty capitalist exploiting the proletariat.

I know very will I don't have much knowledge of you as town, and that my guesses as to how

you specifically

react or solve are likely to be complete dice rolls. If I'm right it is likely a lucky guess and if I'm wrong it's a circle of me grilling you about expected habits you never had to begin with. There are other ways to sort you and I do not think I will have trouble in the long run.

There's a post now that I guess I'll read in a second.

[Prism]

I’m not scumhunting yet. I expect you to call me out for that. I don’t know why that would be confusing. I get called out. I expected you to do it.

I got what you meant and it's definitionally valid. I just have no clue whether it's legitimate or not and if it is then like, damn okay.

I expect to get grilled by you. Regardless of your alignment. Last game I told you what I thought I noticed about how you tend to grill people you’re familiar with. If you’re town you’re going to do it because you’ll want to get the read correct especially at this point when nobody should be townreading me right now. Nobody here knows or understands my mindset well enough to get the correct read at this moment. And it’s possible as scum you might do it to since I already told you that it’s one thing I look for in you. I’m less certain about that last bit though.

I didn’t follow the second part. What’s off base?

There's more specificity to this that you pointed out at the time: I really grill people about their reads

on me

, though as the game ramps up I definitely become a bit more even with tracking & investigating progressions

[Prism]

Holy shit Infinity is in this game I thought someone was shitposting when they said she moved up LMAO

[Prism]

I didn’t follow the second part. What’s off base?

"Off base" here was referring to my own expectations rather than anything inherently scummy about the posts.

[Prism]

Personally I live to say people are stupid for townreading me every game just because I rolled FN

[Prism]

Personally I live to say people are stupid for townreading me every game just because I rolled FN

"trivial to fake" is the go-to phrase

[Prism]

Can you elaborate on what would hypothetically make this a masterpiece?

[Prism]

Rereading I actually don't think you had the specificity on the tell that I gave. It was broader and more about my demands on Nacho, who I'd read walls of and go "What the fuck is this?" and throw in the trash. That manifested differently for petapan, for example, who I always rake over the coals on his reads but am just like "u make sense but no way HMPH" and make him sleep on the couch.

Which I, uh, definitely make an equally burdensome demands of play from people as scum, but I was really hoping the loss of specificity was important and it was not.

[Prism]

So far I'd trust literally no one, which kind of owns

[Prism]

I can vouch that hitting on people all game and playing only when he feels like it is classic Pooky

[Prism]

I guess part of my hesitation here is that so much of this is self-facing, and reacting to my wrong expectations to ameliorate me. There's no weaponization of the expectations you have for me, and that throws me. I was surprised to see you drop the explanation about my preference so quickly. It is a perceptive and clear divergence.

[Prism]

Like I'm astounded that you took the preference seriously enough to remember it and you make the connection. No one else onsite even

remembers

the preference let alone uses it.

[Prism]

Well, push yourself a bit and see if lightning strikes twice.

[Prism]

The difference between this game and every other one you have played with me is vast, Infinity. Does this sound no alarm bells?

[Prism]

The difference between this game and every other one you have played with me is vast, Infinity. Does this sound no alarm bells?

it doesn't seem that different to me tbh? it looks like you're trying to sort tammy, and not trying to take control of the gamestate, which is pretty towny

Can you be more specific what "take control of the gamestate" means? I ask because I have never seen this phrase used in a way that convinces me it is more than snake oil.

I sort players every game. I use it as pretense to manipulate them every game. Where is the difference? I had "control" over most of the "gamestate" our first run of this and used it to shut out catboi and amplify HEM. I was town. While it took me awhile to get it in grasp, I was firm and a dominant voice all of Forest Fire, and leveraged it into an unpopular scumflip and a controversial second.

[Prism]

I'll respond to Tammy later, at some point I have to get off my phone and finish my sets.

[Prism]

I'm pretty sure I figured it out and I don't even know you so F

[Prism]

I guess part of my hesitation here is that so much of this is self-facing, and reacting to my wrong expectations to ameliorate me. There's no weaponization of the expectations you have for me, and that throws me. I was surprised to see you drop the explanation about my preference so quickly. It is a perceptive and clear divergence.

Like I'm astounded that you took the preference seriously enough to remember it and you make the connection. No one else onsite even

remembers

the preference let alone uses it.

I'm not ameliorating you; I'm just existing. I mean maybe I am? But it's not purposeful. I expect you to question me and you are. I'm sorry if I'm being weird; I'm tired, don't feel all that great, and am in a bit of a weird headspace being here today. I don't know that without that if I'd be much different, maybe I'd have more energy I don't know. I don't think I'm being very off but maybe I am.

I'm not sure why you think I would weaponize any expectations I have of you right when the game begins considering I have a tendency to observe these things for a bit anyway. The preference that you're talking about might be a bigger thing to me if we were in a normal game. The game mechanic alone goes a long way in negating that very preference. In fact, even in asking it I didn't think it really mattered much because my two pieces were is prism doing the puffery thing or does the game mechanic negate it. As far as I'm concerned, that's something I can't differentiate as it stands right now because the game mechanic exists and your approach could be very different. I'm sure if I wanted to look solvey I could make a bigger deal out of it than it was, but I'm not scum and for me it was a passing thought that stuck out enough for me to ask but not make much of.

I think "ameliorating" has a more scum-POV spin on it over a neutral one. You're just casually defying expectations and explaining defying them, which is definitely existing and casual but is very difficult for me to correctly sort.

[Prism]

I can hear Prism crinkling her nose in disapproval and muttering "trivially easy to fake".

If it's referring to this:

No, I think that's entirely fair. Could be a newbie awkwardness, could just be writing style in general, could be not having much to comment on, but I don't see the towniness off the bat that you guys see.

I think when people use a reason to townread someone that's so convoluted/weird/notgreat that it's unlikely to be "faked" then it's probably just true.

scum tend to want their reasoning to be like "good"

I think it's very person dependent but in general I agree.

On the other hand, this is one of petapan's stronger beliefs, and it is therefore hogwash.

[Prism]

Reviewing the actual posts of cookie's I don't really see their opener as falling into that category. Reachy but solid opening points are very normal.

[Prism]

faer opener*

[Prism]

does peta still play on MS? i haven't been keeping up well lately

unfortunately

man bounces between this, watching WWE Raw 2002 highlights, and yelling on the yahoo.com comments section about how larry bird was better than lebron ever will be

[Prism]

I don't think you're being difficult, at least not in an uninteresting or frustrating way.

[Prism]

peta is the only man i know who can sing the words to every limp bizkit album in addition to every word off the lucky star character song CDs

[Prism]

wrestlemania on one monitor, free! on the other

[Prism]

I hate getting so off topic and not doing shit for the game but also I can't pass up a chance to grill my guy

[Prism]

Well, you haven't given any reason this game so you're already ahead of the curve.

I don't think the single time you saw me roll scum went so hot before my replaceout, but I don't think you actually read the feedback given to you anyway.

[Prism]

Regardless, I welcome the attempt, time will sort the question out for us.

[Prism]

I actually forgot there was a second because of willow. That one definitely didn't go so hot either.

[Prism]

I remember reading and thinking "wow prism is so brilliant and smart" but i didn't actually retain anything because my brain is a leaky sieve.

I think it's because I'm too old to change my ways.

Yeah and I hate that stupid shit.

[Prism]

That linked to a random page, oh well.

[Prism]

Well, I'll believe it when lightning strikes twice then, but we can put the question off.

[Prism]

I'm really hoping I'll be more productive tomorrow than I was today.

[Prism]

I will say 417 was serious. Discuss the specifics of my play if you enjoy it but take the abstract unjustified fawning and shove it.

[Prism]

All the more reason, but good night for now.

[Prism]

No, i just don't think Prism acts as special ego "i am not trustfalling because no". While i know some want to play this game longer, but it still hinders your chances (unless you think other players are idiots and need your GUIDING HAND for whole game, but then it's lost already, believe me) so i see it's fake.

If this is referring to my post about refusing to trust period, it was a copy/pasted joke referencing another game and not a serious declaration. If this is about my statement I wouldn't accept early as scum, I am already on record saying the same in prior games

[Prism]

It's unlikely I'll be around today, at least until 3p EST. I'm not really feeling it today. If it changes I'll dip in.

[Prism]

Against my better judgement I caught up on the game.

I don't think MafMen essentially saying "but it might come from town, too" is as clever of a point as he thinks regarding Wisdom's reaction to Klick. I concur with Wisdom in that posts like 522 are a bit overly principled. If MafMen doesn't TR Klick and doesn't SR Wisdom I don't know why they didn't just wait to see what happens.

[Prism]

also i for some reason wrote prism twice
the top prism in my brackets is meant to be wisdom

Can you speak more as to how you arrived at those brackets, and maybe what order you placed people in their respective spots? (eg. Were those brackets typed in chronological order, names inserted haphazardly or shifted around?)

[Prism]

I think what you're suggesting is a bit more advanced, being about inducing stress on a townsperson, than Klick's suggestion, which was about objecting to townreads rather than letting consensus happen on a player.

Do you think both Pooky/Tammy are town? It seems like you don't think that's the case, but I want to make sure. I don't agree that they're as destined to pair, either.

[Prism]

I feel fine about Pooky so far. I've never seen him roll scum and have spectated no scumgames of his either so I'm just kind of YOLOing based off his reactions and solve suggestions realtime.

I feel fine about Infinity's most recent posts and what they thought was similar for me. What bothered me is that they tend to hone in on some of my more aggressive play or antics, which have been mostly nonexistent this game.

Wisdom definitely got the better of the MafMen interaction but meh.

No clue about Tammy, Klick, the worst, Enchant, or cookie. I wouldn't trust MafMen right now. Not a great game for me readswise.

[Prism]

Trivially easy to fake

I really don't see your point by returning to this. I was the one who made the joke originally that I overuse the phrase but there are successful and unsuccessful ways to read players. Infinity has not played against my scumgame in a completed game since May 2017. Her gut led her extremely wrong in a scumgame she spectated.

[Prism]

That joke/horse was dead yesterday. Don't miss actual criticisms beating it.

[Prism]

Also, sorry Infinity-I did not notice you shifted your pronoun to they. I will do my best to revise it moving forward.

[Prism]

Also, sorry Infinity-I did not notice you shifted your pronoun to they. I will do my best to revise it moving forward.

thanks

what was the game where my gut was terribly wrong again? you linked forest fire

In the linked post in Forest Fire, you discuss spectating Newbie 2051, which is my only completed scumgame of the last 4 years.

[Prism]

I really don't see any incentive to push out Tammy/Pooky, especially not early. Tammy is strong but struggles in the long-run as scum. I have not seen Pooky's scumgame but it is apparently very strong and not at all free. Both have significantly above average reads as town.

The pairing makes the least sense in a vacuum and early makes it even worse.

[Prism]

Letting Pooky nuke one of the easier townreads in the game while also denying town one of the stronger readers is ??????

Letting Tammy get a free scumpoint instead of just waiting and letting her autolose is ??????

Kicking the two stronger town voices out early is ??????

[Prism]

Overall I'm really struggling to find any townreads. The only question I am deeply invested in right now waits for MafMen to show up.

I guess for now I'll just stay out of the way for the most part.

[Prism]

I fuckin' can't this game lmao

I'll have someone come fetch me when I decide to stop playing like absolute fucking trash

[Prism]

Overall I'm really struggling to find any townreads. The only question I am deeply invested in right now waits for MafMen to show up.

I guess for now I'll just stay out of the way for the most part.

I fuckin' can't this game lmao

I'll have someone come fetch me when I decide to stop playing like absolute fucking trash

whatd i do

Your response was fine.

It's not what you did but what I can't do, which right now is play better, so I'm just going to go blow off steam for awhile until that changes.

[Prism]

I'm fine being left out of pairings and carried. See you in another 24.

[Prism]

I'm happy just leaving me/MafMen on the island with whatever random pairings and calling it a game.

[Prism]

I am not as eager in that read as I am eager to call it a day.

[Prism]

I'm coming back around and into shape, though it will take a bit more time.

Do your best to not get a scumflip before then.

[Prism]

Winning the game without me at all would also be nice, but I will come around.

[Prism]

Uhhh
I'm eagerly waiting for Prism to deliver on her promises of potential? So far everything she's given me feels trivially easy to fake
haha see what I did there am I cool now

I wouldn't hold my breath for great reads or townplay from me.

Simultaneously, there are players who hope to see more from me, and I can give them my best effort and take it in stride instead of being a downer and frustrated with myself.

I'll be working over the game the next few hours, so let's see what I can do I guess.

[Prism]

I'm about 20 pages into rereading.

Right now, I actually think I was wrong on MafMen. I know the Wisdom argument is soon to come in the readthrough, but I think this slot is very town. I don't townread Cookie's opener the way MafMen did, but the entire presentation of that argument and persistence in pushing the point is +town to me. I would be moderately surprised if this were scum at all, but especially if it's S/S. I also really liked his interactions with Tammy, starting with 169 but followed up by intentionally ignoring her questioning until 221.

In contrast, I'm a lot more skeptical of Pooky. I think almost all of this game is very rote in his reactions to players. The first question that came into my mind was "What is his plan here if Tammy is scum?", which was answered as "stay out of pairings". I think the attempts to sort her, though, have been both few and unnotable throughout the first 20 pages of the game. The usual flirtations also haven't been used as an instrument to hash out reads together, either, which really throws me.

I'd also townlean Infinity/Enchant/Worst. It took me a minute to put together all of the pieces about Infinity's interactions with Tammy but I think they were +town for her. Enchant/Worst are more spitball.

[Prism]

It's also very clear that this is essentially how Pooky believes the setup should be played as scum. The counter to this is that you do need to have a backup plan, though, in the event Tammy leaves with someone else. There's also some inherent flexibility with only making your adjustment after she leaves, but eh.

More of an heightened scrutiny/nullread than a scumread.

[Prism]

Tammy and maybe Klick-very curious to your thoughts on 941.

I need to take a break, not sure when I can finish rereading as I still have a lot to do after lunch.

[Prism]

For sure, but the issue is that through the first 20 pages I don't think you're sorting Tammy at all, and that's a problem.

[Prism]

(If it's not clear, 942 is discussing the scum strategy of single-targeting)

[Prism]

Cool. What do you think of my read on MafMen?

You seem to think both myself and Tammy are town. Not outing reasoning on the former is a point of frustration for me, because I often get very good reads this way, but I get it as it typically starts with a reactionary scumread and it can be draining for players to run the gauntlet to the other side. I'm curious about the latter, though.

P-Edit: I guess that ends the conversation for the present day, but I believe you held the view I'm describing well before then if you don't mind talking a bit about it.

[Prism]

I do not understand this viewpoint but won't belabor the points one me. Whatever directly contradicts my record can stand uncorrected.

I am again more interested in your thoughts on MafMen and your read of Tammy pre-Wisdom trust.

[Prism]

From what I can recollect, I don't think that perspective makes sense - arguing with Wisdom "to get townread" - as opposed to just being frustrated at the argument with the scum knowledge that they're right.

I'll revisit it when I reread that and get caught up with rest of the game. Thanks for humoring me for a moment.

[Prism]

Alright, going to get as far as I can with the last 19 pages until this coffee shop closes.

i meant more that scum feel a need to do things

particularly in this setup where scum can't lurk unnoticed to victory - they need to actively try and get paired up

Sorry if you've answered this in a previous page, but how do you feel about MafMen and Wisdom? Skimming I don't see anything, but here you're adding on to the perspective Pooky is pushing, which is that MafMen was hoping that arguing with Wisdom/whiteknighting Klick would seem town.

[Prism]

usually when you pocket one person in a game you don't like win off that.(since theres like lots of other people who can vote your ass off)

not actually relevant or making a point but you know i had to do it to 'em

[Prism]

Rereading the Wisdom/MafMen back and forth is frustrating all over again because this post from Wisdom is 100% right but MafMen seems adamant about not settling for "could be wrong" in favor of "is wrong no matter what"

So mafmen and klick should be in final four, most likely along with infinity and cookie unless something dramatic happens

Right now I'd trade Infinity for Pooky but this is generally OK with me.

T->S I'm at Wisdom, MafMen, Worst, Infinity, Enchant, Tammy, Pooky, Cookie, Klick with a big gap between MafMen/Worst and another between Tammy/Pooky

[Prism]

I find myself agreeing with MafMen through most of this argument, while also finding him most likely to be scum out of him/Wisdom/Pooky

I REALLY want to hear more about this. Did you find something about Wisdom/Pooky particularly town here and MafMen is closer to null, or did you think MafMen was actively scummy despite your agreement in the argument?

[Prism]

Klick's at the bottom of my list but I think 593 is bad from Pooky. Klick's explaining the reticence/scumlean on Tammy. Why would most town players ever frame it as shading with some advanced ulterior motive?

The specificity [in motive] of "preventing town from leaving" seems to be added by Pooky and is a lot more immediate and urgent than what just throwing a read out there requires.

[Prism]

One of the things I most like about Infinity is the level of pedantry on the Wisdom clear/townlean. Most people speak and describe townreads/leans as genuine beliefs or feelings. Something like the missed trust might be

literally

+1% likely to be town, but at that point the level of rational description isn't enough to noticeably tip a scale or change belief.

And I think that disconnect is something Infinity is more likely to hone in on and press as town, as opposed to just...letting the person be wrong and breathing a small sigh of relief.

[Prism]

My biggest fear about MafMen is basically that the double names is kind of a ??? error, the answer was fine but it's really hard to screw up who your top townread is, especially with the name of a player you're paranoid about.

[Prism]

With 638 Tammy has won my heart. Up the townread list you go, rank #3

[Prism]

If I get the motivation I should rescout out Flying Scumsman to see if you normally preemptively hedge your arguments this much as scum vs. town but that's a later project I guess

[Prism]

What you wrote about Wisdom in 218 strengthened my feelings there. I don't think that was your intention, regardless of alignment. Earlier, the impression that I got from 218 was that you were possibly trying to dismiss the reasons for townreading Wisdom prematurely in an effort to discredit them; just saying 'but I don't trust my judgment' felt very weak as a dismissal of what felt like good reasoning to me. Reading it now with more context, it feels consistent that you'd rather go off of more evidence than that.

I do not understand what fundamentally changed here. Tammy wasn't sold on it being a strong reason and voiced that. Maybe it's shading maybe it's legitimate. I just don't get the shift here.

[Prism]

Like I get that you're saying "I reread it with more context and it feels consistent" but this seems like wordplay and verbal framing more than an actual improvement in understanding the post.

[Prism]

I’ve been grading all day and I have no spoons for mafia.

Here

Gonna do something that doesn’t require brain power and see how I feel.

Here

Anyway the coffee shop is closing so that's all the reading I can do for now, see y'all later

[Prism]

The point is you think, or at least seem to think that the process or idea behind Wisdom's read is wrong no matter what [Klick's alignment is]

How pedantic are you going to get, dude?

[Prism]

Aight I'm read to nolife it with my Saturday, going to be swapping around activities/reading but will be here the whole time. Finishing my catch-up now.

[Prism]

1 line summary?

i don't even know what he was talking about

ah i was hoping to sheep you to answer enchant. ok Enchant, I'll go with, gun to head, Pookythemagicalbear and the worst for town.

Can you elaborate on these a bit? I know they're gun to head but at least one of these seems somewhat confident.

In your earlier post of 708, you indicated that you had the first player in mind but were struggling on the second. Your next few posts seemed to consider slots in some order-myself, then Infinity, etc. I'm taking it Pooky is the first name you had in mind all along?

[Prism]

i'm only really happy about pooky, but really that's based on his care-free townie zeal. also i'm not the smallest poster now so you can see i am gaining strength

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I guess this answers the above but I don't know what "care-free townie zeal" is and why no one else has it (ex. Tammy, the worst, arguably even MafMen other than the Klick/Wisdom tryhard argument)

[Prism]

The further I make it down this page the more confused I get

[Prism]

Prism: Can't decide yet (I actually respect that)

I had actually missed the question entirely, but I would have said something like Wisdom/Pooky at the time. Now I'd do Wisdom/TheWorst probably. I think MafMen as a townread is underrated and something I feel good bout but there are small hangups. Tammy I feel good about but I'm fine keeping her around to make sure.

[Prism]

I knew people were trusted but I thought it was Wisdom/Tammy and it is the worst I'm dead yes the worst is definitely in that top 2

[Prism]

Alright I'm basically fine with the path we're on.

I'd leave out Klick/cookie and then 2 of me/Pooky/Infinity.

Not impressed with Klick's reaction to Enchant. Convoluted and reaching take and not in a good way.

[Prism]

I agree w Prism about her MafMen townread. I'm not convinced it's a spicy read motivated by solving so much as just having reads though

legit if the final 4 contains prism and cookie I think we just win anyway

There's really nothing here for me to say, I think, but I should probably at least acknowledge it. I think Klick should take my spot. I don't really get the pairing other than maybe cookie's weird 711, where I was the first name fae considered working down to try to find a second name for Enchant.

Pretty clear that I reset and approached the game refreshed with the hope of finding something. I took a much more careful and thoughtful eye to posts regardless of alignment. I don't think the "motivation" here is discernible. I don't think having reads is important as scum for its own sake, but there are plenty of reasons to fake the process.

[Prism]

i think we probly just win with klick in f2

he has really terrible wim as mafia lol

I agree with this. Thinking through the above response to the worst had me wondering if I am wrong having cookie so low because going down the list and considering me/Infinity in sequence was arguably a legitimate thought process and +town.

But at this point I don't think I really need to worry that much about it. I don't like any of Klick's posts. If one of the townlean/null bunch is scum and escapes I barely care because they still have a bigger problem, and it's not mine.

[Prism]

?????????????????????????????????

[Prism]

This is the dumbest shit I have ever read and I played Warehouse 13

[Prism]

I'm going to leave this for a bit longer and assume you know what you're doing but I am very concerned.

[Prism]

I take this back. I'm going to intervene.

Wisdom isn't being a unilateralist other than by trusting Tammy. He's been dialoguing and expressing reads, and disagreeing when he wants to. There are times he should probably be less aggressive (see: MafMen back and forth) but as someone who can be similarly aggressive, sometimes it's hard not to be.

This is a bizarre overreaction and you're being a giant asshole. He asked who you wanted to flip so we can sort you and maybe get the show on the road like you want. If he agrees with you it's easier, if he disagrees of course it'll be harder and you'd do the same if not for this weird LLD-style deathwish.

[Prism]

The whole time I've just wished both of you would just answer the questions directly.

Just absolutely wild that you think Wisdom is being a unilateralist so your solution is to

actually

make him a unilateralist with

yourself

as the backup unilateralist.

We're doing fine playing by coalition.

[Prism]

Go take a walk or something, dude. This is Trust Fall and not Undertale. There's a reason your entire scum strategy relies on hard pocketing and getting people to break from the wider town. It's great if the entire town wants to sit on their hands and vote two town players all together, but it's not caring zero about other people or their opinions to trust someone. He's not doing the Koba approach. He's not busting down our doors if we disagree or don't follow his lead. He's not doing it with zero thought or dialogue.

You're taking one individual rogue trust and demanding that the rest of the game be decided by both of you. This is completely egocentric and

actually

disrespectful to the other 8 players, and to Wisdom who has given no indication of wanting to play that way to begin with.

[Prism]

Yeah, I guess if I want to talk it over instead of letting you suicide gladiate that's our only option is to lose. No other way to win if we don't give you your way.

[Prism]

I also don't know if you're bluffing or not. Make it two morons if you'd like, but maybe you're right that Wisdom should know better.

I was fine leaving it at first for pressure but this has gotten just vicious and dramatically overblown. By your own admission, your insistence that the other 8 players cede their agency to you is not just to pressure but is apparently serious.

[Prism]

I might be making it worse at this point so I am going to step away from the computer for a second, give you a chance to vent if what I'm saying is frustrating, but at that point I'd urge you to do the same and maybe go outside and feel the breeze.

[Prism]

Wisdom, to fully flesh that out actually before I go:

Pooky is saying you choose 4 players to flip. If any are scum, he is holding you accountable and there is one scum left.

He is trusting every other player alive at that point. With one scum they're either all town (as accepting wins for scum) or Pooky is scum. That means they will pair off and leave you and Pooky alone.

If you're scum and choose to give town 2 free pairings he's okay with that trade so the suicide bomb world does not apply.

P-Edit: Already ahead of you lmao

[Prism]

He has not decided to be town dictator and is rejecting it completely. Perhaps he is scum, but he's not town dictator.

I am again going for a walk. If you don't want someone making any trust without the explicit OK from all of town don't play this setup. Every town player has the ability and even duty to take some unilateral action. You're taking Wisdom exercising that right in limited fashion and demanding we all give up and play the game your way and blame Wisdom for it instead of you, even as Wisdom rejects it and I voice my opposition. Your solution is also not clearly winning for town, because it depends on Wisdom being either perfectly right on 4 (really 5) players or scum.

Go take a walk, dude.

[Prism]

OK. I will take that into consideration.

[Prism]

Maybe you're right and Wisdom is scum. I still prefer Klick in the final two but there are two scum somewhere, not one.

I'm really curious about what Tammy & Infinity think.

[Prism]

I'm acknowledging that my reads are fallible and I might be wrong that you are town. I'm not currently of the opinion you are scum.

[Prism]

I know I've said I would step away and take a walk, which I did, but now I've got some other reading I want to get through. Legal history is surprisingly fun sometimes!

I really think the game would benefit from other voices at this point, too. Infinity, maybe now is the time to power town?

[Prism]

Presentation matters, and it would be a shame to guess correctly only to pursue it in a way that cedes your own influence, let's Wisdom outmaneuver you, and harms your chances of winning the game. Moral victories are nice but actual ones are much sweeter.

[Prism]

Then I, too, hope you are scum-that your claims in the value of cooperation, against the unilateralist, against the egocentric and self-concerned and self-assured-have not in reality warped so far off track as to be unrecognizable.

[Prism]

You don't talk like someone to whom winning/losing is unimportant to.

You're too old to have me babysit you. You're not petapan. It's okay to be frustrated if people don't see what you see. Don't scorched earth it or act like you sign up for these games just to be a self-righteous asshat. You want to win so play like it.

[Prism]

You tried to end the game for everyone by forcing between you+Wisdom because you hated a play of Wisdom's, calling it dictatorial and egotistical. You then launched into a tirade about how winning isn't important to you and what really matters is that you are right. That is all pretty extreme, man.

Speaking only for myself I want you to slow down, remember winning is important even if not being listened to and outright disagreed with is frustrating, and actually visit with other slots, talk to them more than Wisdom (eg. Remember Tammy? She exists), and maybe at some point when you're centered and know where we stand and what our hangups are lay out a case that is more comprehensive or thoughtful than "Town Wisdom WOULD take this dictator bet"

[Prism]

I've got to drive home and then go for my run. I think everything you just said is fine and a better framing even if I'm not sold right now.

[Prism]

lmfao worst just took all my hard work the last few pages and went YEET

[Prism]

wanna beat up on worst instead

Prism: "Pooky you are heard just give it time and patience"
Infinity: "Indeed Pooky you are better than this as town"
Worst: "I am glad this conversation was handled so well"
...
Worst: "ROFLCOPTER FUCK THE BEAR I TRUST WISDOM NOW?"

[Prism]

fuck is the new pinata

[Prism]

duck

[Prism]

...Any thoughts on the players involved?

It is worth noting that Pooky is not saying (though he might believe, idk) activity is AI in general. He is saying it is scum indicative specifically for Klick.

[Prism]

Pretty sure the dinner ate Tammy instead, rest in peace

[Prism]

I don't know who Pooky's partner would be but I don't really do preflips and Pooky is at the null-nullscum slot anyway.

[Prism]

I have made it very clear that I would leave behind Klick first and foremost.

[Prism]

Tammy you had to wait until I was out and tired? Damn you

I've got to get up early and move out of my apartment tomorrow so I probably won't be too active.

[Prism]

I'm so fucking sick of waking up to this shit.

[Prism]

This shifted back to being somewhat game relevant so I'll cut my comments short and keep it global.

If none of your opinions about each other matter shut the fuck up about them and go sit on a mountain until postgame instead of arguing about how little you care or think about the other person for 12 fucking hours. To quote Harvey Danger: "If you've got greatness in you-would you do us all a favor and keep it to yourself?" Nobody gives a shit how right you are or if you are God's most special little skilled mafia creation.

Mechanically I am on board with Tammy/the worst but worry about my sanity with them gone.

[Prism]

I'm sure that will help the environment and be appreciated by everyone.

Just let the worst/Tammy either leave together or spitball another pairing they have in mind. The game isn't going to die if things gets slow and you don't argue with people for a day. If the worst/Tammy don't at least get an idea out soon you have other players like myself, Infinity, cookie who can push things ahead.

[Prism]

Can y'all go one day

One day

Without all of this

[Prism]

I guess I'll bring my laptop to this social event and read shit and hope it was important but good god why

[Prism]

Alright. I'll leave it to y'all.

Please say to yourself "I am a fully grown adult" before hitting submit on some of these posts

[Prism]

I will have the time to catch up tomorrow but I don't know if I will have the mental fortitude.

I'm again fine with most of the top townreads pairing off.

[Prism]

Probably better for me to just put it on a line

T->S

Worst, Tammy, MafMen, Wisdom, Enchant, Infinity, Pooky, Cookie, Klick

MafMen/Wisdom/Enchant can honestly go in any order and there's big gaps between Enchant/Infinity and Cookie/Klik

[Prism]

I'm leaving Pooky/Klick in the Final 2. I'm fine speedgaming it

I have words to explain and I have words that are mean but this is beyond the point of discussion.

[Prism]

The Worst probably should have just accepted Enchant instead of bothering with the replaceout.

[Prism]

Stop posting Pooky. If you don't want to replace out post proddodges.

[Prism]

I'm not saying that in retaliation for the worst. I'm saying that because you don't care about winning, you've given up, you don't care about our opinions, etc. I have meaner words and words about your actual points but those motivations should suffice.

Go learn to woodcarve or something instead

[Prism]

I'm not Tammy but I am having a very hard time picking the last player.

I'd put {Pooky, cookie, Klick, Infinity, MafMen} as the final 5, which is of course 1 one too many. I'd probably take MafMen as the town over cookie, really unsure about Infinity/cookie/Pooky and the chance of deviants go up as the crowd leaves and only a few remain

[Prism]

I disagree that Pooky is hardtown but I do doubt you're scum together. I don't want to bring him out of the woodwork so I'll leave my comments there.

[Prism]

Okay, now I can comment I guess.

His comments were so wildly conflicting, borderline flopping, and delusional that it is hard to see them as town for any reason other than sheer absurdity. I pulled a scum tactic of making the game unpleasant for him personally. Part of me feels he wouldn't do that because normally, when he is not fucking insane, he is very adamant about other all players having fun.

[Prism]

I pulled that scum tactic in a Mini Normal, to be clear, not this game lmfao

[Prism]

Insisting on being in the Final 2 is a fine tactic as scum and Pooky willfully missing that was ???

It is betting on being townread

along with the other person

which with Wisdom is not hard.

[Prism]

I'm more fine with the slot after realizing I don't think he gives my tactic a whirl to begin with, not how he approaches games.

[Prism]

Convenientl timing I guess. I can already tell Dwlee is going to tilt me much more than Pooky ever did so I'll take my leave for now.

[Prism]

It's not just from the instant trusts though those are tilting. I have spectated games and have literally never once agreed or empathized with a post they have written, which is more of a me problem.

[Prism]

Your work is done by trusting Ydrasse. Please do no more until you fully catch up, as there are plenty of trusts on the table and the chance of snapreads going wrong skyrockets.

[Prism]

(Though most of the town is in agreement that you should leave with Enchant)

[Prism]

I'm fine leaving MafMen/Cookie/Klick/Infinity for F4. Much more pleasant game if not outright winning.

[Prism]

Literally even in the worst case scenario what does that F4 look like? You ask about each other's day, MafMen gets a little argumentative over a bad day beng a neutral day, Infinity posts a heart and says good days are subjective?

[Prism]

I'd prefer you not, but they are my words.

[Prism]

(As in, but they are my words posted publicly, rather than that I have ownership of their perpetual distribution)

[Prism]

Either way, Ydrasse, you've been keeping tabs on the game. Any other reads?

[Prism]

Ydrasse actually playing mafia.

Obviously scum.

[Prism]

empowered by CONFIRMATION???? nay

[Prism]

Honestly at this point I think this is just over. If anyone is scum in the block it's me or Enchant playing the fucking game of his life.

[Prism]

I don't know. Thought you'd need a Pokeflute to get you up and moving, but maybe some power when you choose to throw your weight around...

[Prism]

Tammy, it sounds like you had scattered thoughts that did not make it to paper.

How do you feel about the plan we're currently spitballing? Am I overconfident in Enchant? Am I wrong to throw in the towel on just punishing the Pooky/Dwlee slot?

[Prism]

Pooky/Ydrasse slot*

[Prism]

nope just slow start and then i’m a behemoth

where was behemoth in forest fire/last trust fall/isaac

ma'am i would like to file a grievance

[Prism]

Tammatha remember if you stop posting your role PM changes to red

[Prism]

I'm not sure what you're asking.

If you're asking why Pooky fakes a mental breakdown as scum, to get townread and turn town into a dysfunctional mess on top of it? I don't think he intentionally uses this tactic though, maybe tries a hint of it and gets swept up but with Ydrasse being trusted he's probably just town.

[Prism]

I'm conftown unless Enchant is scum. Ydrasse is conftown unless I'm scum. So ydrasse is conftown cause me, enchant, and ydrasse can't all be scum

Not that straightforward, still work to be done on the scum end once trusted by town. Don't disagree with the players involved being likely town.

[Prism]

i town

Finally, the long-awaited sequel to Will Smith's "iRobot"

I'm fine flipping though I was hoping to get Tammy's brain moving again and pumping out some thoughts, that's more of an academic exercise/learning to love mafia again approach. It probably helps us winning but I have no serious doubts.

I'm happy to flip whenever with whoever in whatever order-if people want to sort me sooner over later, if people want some insurance I'm not scum with someone else in the block, or just to exit with Tammy and then we go back to exercising and reading instead of mafia.

[Prism]

Klick should probably be allowed to choose who stays in Final 2 with him if we're seriously going to leave him there btw. I don't know if it's only me who wants that or not.

[Prism]

I agree with that, but I do think people should essentially shut one player out then let them kingmake. As is if any of the three players choose a wrong townread the game instantly ends, while a correct one still has the must be mutual barrier

[Prism]

EV should be the same assuming random choices but I think there's problems with assuming random choices that this kinda avoids

[Prism]

I'd love a Tammy exit but I'm not going to get in the way or argue about it for eons if people really want to strategically pair me elsewhere

[Prism]

Or be a real chaos demon and say someone else

[Prism]

Enchant, what do you think of my alignment? I haven't seen any comments or concerns for a long time.

[Prism]

I'm in the same boat-you're the only person in the pool I think I should consider more about! Specifically, I've seen some of the tone from this game here before as scum but have been happy to slot it as probably null.

I'm more curious as for what you're actually struggling with or thinking about rather than just that you're unsure.

[Prism]

Some of the comments, eg. "believe me" in this post, have reminded me of the start of Primroses where you defended me from a scum partner.

BM, i know reason, but rules... Eh. I make tip.
Someone playing more games than one.

This is probably null but now with one pairing safely off it's time for me to keep worrying.

Originally, I had typed something like "If Enchant gave us two pairings in exchange for the townread, I'm pretty fine with that" before realizing that strategy was 50% EV as scum and really not bad at all.

[Prism]

I'm not asking you specifically to trust me: I'm asking if you're concerned about me being part of the pairings, because right now if you/Tammy exit me/Wisdom are next barring some other pairing preempting us with a YOLO.

ie. I'm wondering if you think I should be swapped with someone else

[Prism]

My concern is that the Final 4 will be very, VERY hard if either of us is scum.

I'm more confident in MafMen being town but I inserting him is happening

[Prism]

Why do you say "either of us" instead of "you" when you know you arent scum

I'm explicitly drawing a parallel in our positions. When illustrating my point to others, I don't go out of my way to highlight my own knowledge of my alignment.

[Prism]

Can you give a summary of where you're currently at with reads? The players you have trusted have all already left or are about to.

I'd also like it if you were able translate that speculation about scum distancing into practical application (ie. Are there players that

might

be doing this? I'm not asking you to hard commit any such speculation being right)

[Prism]

I'm gonna stick with

Vote: Tammy

for today. I'm not sure it matters though if the days are now pre-determined and I'm not pairing until late game (other than for personal pride). and perhaps there is some benefit in democratically assigning specific pairings as a failed pair through an agreed method could be scum-scum. although I'm at risk of talking about town strategy here as Ydrasse said earlier. all I can think is if the townies are very much on the back-foot in influencing decisions, it could play right into scums hands. I guess people will follow their own reads if they have them, for better or worse. Perhaps I should instead focus only on the final 4 players, although maybe it's game over before then. these are mostly musings to myself I think.

...Revisiting this, I'm just not sure who you're thinking is scummy/towny here?

These pairings had Dwlee and Ydrasse weigh in, both of whom flipped town. They had Tammy weigh in, who you are currently trusting. Are you townreading some of the people left out? Scumreading some number of me/Wisdom/Enchant?

[Prism]

If the "Wisdom 6" are town, the game ends in a town win. There's no more narrowing to be had.

[Prism]

My current predicament is that I trust MafMen more then Enchant, but trust Enchant more than Infinity/cookie/Klick.

If Enchant is scum, those 4 (MafMen/Infinity/cookie/Klick) have to make another pairing. Very few other people share my MafMen read to begin with, but even in a world where he got to choose picking a decisively town out of those 3 is HARD

[Prism]

Thanks for answering all of that. I'll chew on it for a bit. I'll also wait for other people to chip in about my concerns re: Enchant, F4.

I'm still okay with some pairings of me/Enchant/Wisdom/Tammy.

[Prism]

My standards and expectations for my own play are quite high. There are a few different players that can corroborate this.

[Prism]

I think his reaction to Wisdom was absolutely batshit insane and I will have zero sympathy for him even if Wisdom flipped scum.

I believe his MafMen read was along the lines of that a town player would have backed off instead of arguing over nothing for no reason. I think Pooky disproved himself.

I did not respect Pooky's reads at all this game and to be blunt it is a miracle that I plan on treating him like this game never happened postgame as opposed to something more viscerally negative.

[Prism]

I think I am being a bit unfair about his MafMen read but I did not find it persuasive either and personally took the opposite stance after my reread.

[Prism]

For cool cookie re: meta request I'd have to review my games specifically, might do it when I get bored. I have made similar selfcomplaints in my scum PTs but never in postgames. As town I know I felt this way in illicit, Chara's Folly, and to a lesser extent Warehouse 13 but those ISOs are gigantic.

[Prism]

For cool cookie re: meta request I'd have to review my games specifically, might do it when I get bored. I have made similar selfcomplaints in my scum PTs but never in

postgames

public

. As town I know I felt this way in illicit, Chara's Folly, and to a lesser extent Warehouse 13 but those ISOs are gigantic.

EBWOP