Open 834: Trust Fall - Game Over

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'the worst' initial scumping for claiming to not know the rules on page 3, when they had been referenced a couple times already by that point - potentially tricking someone into an early OMGUS trust thing. and also repeated claims Enchant is town, with no reason given.

a couple mildest of mild townpings. Liked Pookythemagicalbears opening appeal, felt genuine and performative where scum might worry about seeming needy. nothing else for now but I'm watching you.

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i feel like i'd rather sit back and see how it goes, rather than blow it all early in a blaze of glory and potentially put town on the backfoot

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i dont think the worst has broken any rules yet. lots of active posting here and people who know each other, but how well do they know each other.

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expending political capital to shade someone who's town is not exactly a winning strategy for a scumside player.

your goal is to get someone to trust you

not make sure nobody can trust anyone (cuz that's like literally impossible)

Scum doesn't just want to get trusted - they want to be trusted more than town
So scum!Tammy would be concerned about town'Wisdom getting soft-confirmed because that takes away from her potential pairings, since all the townies that might have wanted to pair with her would instead be appealing to Wisdom

I don't feel like this is stupid? But it seems that everyone has a consensus about this and I've not played the setup before admittedly

agree with Klick here. I can see scum wanting to shade 1 player to make them feel forced into accepting any trust they can find. maybe wouldn't work with experienced players but I think that is a motive for throwing shade on the right player (whilst wanting to suck up to the majority too). so I think slight tendency towards players who are bucking the consensus and standing out. i havent read everything back but was liking mafmen for town apart from 1 post which referred to my "previous games", when I only have 1, which didn't really make sense. Pooky-Tammy is probably a lock unless they are both scum which would be awkward. i will keep catching up when i can.

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one of the good things about this game is you don't even need to pair up to win, so less pressure

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I think what you're suggesting is a bit more advanced, being about inducing stress on a townsperson, than Klick's suggestion, which was about objecting to townreads rather than letting consensus happen on a player.

Do you think both Pooky/Tammy are town? It seems like you don't think that's the case, but I want to make sure. I don't agree that they're as destined to pair, either.

ah so in that case, I don't see much point in scum looking to fight the overwhelming tide. they only need 2 townies to slip up, so makes more sense they'd pick on the weaklings.

I do think Pooky is leaning town, I don't really know on Tammy, but my point was that I do believe they will pair regardless unless they mechanically can't, so in a sense it isn't worth spending much time thinking about.

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expending political capital to shade someone who's town is not exactly a winning strategy for a scumside player.

your goal is to get someone to trust you

not make sure nobody can trust anyone (cuz that's like literally impossible)

Scum doesn't just want to get trusted - they want to be trusted more than town
So scum!Tammy would be concerned about town'Wisdom getting soft-confirmed because that takes away from her potential pairings, since all the townies that might have wanted to pair with her would instead be appealing to Wisdom

I don't feel like this is stupid? But it seems that everyone has a consensus about this and I've not played the setup before admittedly

agree with Klick here. I can see scum wanting to shade 1 player to make them feel forced into accepting any trust they can find. maybe wouldn't work with experienced players but I think that is a motive for throwing shade on the right player (whilst wanting to suck up to the majority too). so I think slight tendency towards players who are bucking the consensus and standing out. i havent read everything back but was liking mafmen for town apart from 1 post which referred to my "previous games", when I only have 1, which didn't really make sense. Pooky-Tammy is probably a lock unless they are both scum which would be awkward. i will keep catching up when i can.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but you don't seem to be agreeing with Klick there. Klick is saying I was trying to limit Wisdom's potential pairings to expand my own, but you're saying that scum might shade town to force them into accepting a trust?

What do you think the slight tendency towards players who are bucking the consensus and standing out is?

What is the lock between me and spooky?

I think I answered first question already, but happy to say more if you want? it's possible i only agreed with some of what Klick said/disagreed with what Pooky had said - really it was mostly a hook to get back in the game and share my own view.

not sure i understand second question - i meant that i feel a bit more trusting of players who aren't buddying up and agreeable with everyone. sort of like the in-crowd vs the outsiders.

can you please clarify third question?

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post 666 cookie is confirmed scum.

i also thought this

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Also, sorry Infinity-I did not notice you shifted your pronoun to they. I will do my best to revise it moving forward.

And I did not notice that you shifted it to she; sorry for referring to you as they.

you can always play it safe and just refer to people by their usernames. cookie works fine for me, or cool if you're trying to butter me up.

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can you please clarify third question?

You said that Tammy-Pooky was a lock and I was wondering what you meant, but you just responded to Prism that you thought we were a locked pair so I figured you answered that already.

ah yes thats right

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expending political capital to shade someone who's town is not exactly a winning strategy for a scumside player.

your goal is to get someone to trust you

not make sure nobody can trust anyone (cuz that's like literally impossible)

Scum doesn't just want to get trusted - they want to be trusted more than town
So scum!Tammy would be concerned about town'Wisdom getting soft-confirmed because that takes away from her potential pairings, since all the townies that might have wanted to pair with her would instead be appealing to Wisdom

I don't feel like this is stupid?

But it seems that everyone has a consensus about this and I've not played the setup before admittedly

I did like the bolded though.

on reflection i feel the opposite way about the bolded

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Also, sorry Infinity-I did not notice you shifted your pronoun to they. I will do my best to revise it moving forward.

And I did not notice that you shifted it to she; sorry for referring to you as they.

you can always play it safe and just refer to people by their usernames. cookie works fine for me, or cool if you're trying to butter me up.

Hey food, answer my question please?

im thinking about it

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I don't feel very confident read-wise rn

the weaker players r barely participating and I don't feel comfortable townbinning the stronger players atm since they are perfectly capable of maintaining this kind of thread presence/activity as scum.

who are the weaker players?

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when I say weak i don't mean like overall weak

just weaker in the sense that I feel their scum games are not as strong as their town games and there is readable disparity

I don't actually know if this applies to cookie

maybe i'm actually strong by that definition - equally bad as both alignments. i guess honestly i can tell you im much better as scum than town

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can someone please remind me the situation with Wisdom? something about them being arguably probtown due to not reciprocating a trust? or did i make that up?

clutching at straws to find my 2nd pick for Enchant

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I quite like Prism's posts, but I'm suspicious of the player for making a point of engaging me. could be trying to sucker me in.

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wait didnt i catch you in the last trust fall game infinity

honestly i didn't know how much of your scumread was a joke but sure

do you have a read on cookie?

probtown

warms my heart

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can someone please remind me the situation with Wisdom? something about them being arguably probtown due to not reciprocating a trust? or did i make that up?

clutching at straws to find my 2nd pick for Enchant

I lolvoted them on like pg2 before realising that voting qualified as trusting. He posted without reciprocating but there was like 90 seconds between so I spent a few pages insisting he was cleared to stir stuff up. Tammy disagreed, Klick said Tammy disagreeing was scummy, a bunch of people think Klick is scummy for it. MafMen hard defended Klick and got into a 3 page argument with Wisdom which didn't like, super go anywhere but Wisdom kinda cornered MafMen into defending his Klick read and it wasn't gr8

also wisdom confirmed he didn't notice the trust so he's owned that the clear was phoney

v helpful thanks, i remember the first bit now.

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cookie's posting reminds me of like. imagine you're on a date and the other person was in the middle of a story which they were really vibing and you're like, kinda fine with it, but it's not riveting and also you really really need to use the bathroom.

that. that's what faer posts remind me of.

eh

Pooky - why Wisdom so town for you?

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i sort of feel like infinity is skirting on the periphery but posts when they pop up never really fill me with deep joy.

maybe it's too early for scumreads though - more important to keep an open mind about who could be town.

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Pooky - why Wisdom so town for you?

that conversation last night was super wild

1 line summary?

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i sort of feel like infinity is skirting on the periphery but posts when they pop up never really fill me with deep joy.

maybe it's too early for scumreads though - more important to keep an open mind about who could be town.

can you expand a bit on why that would make infinity scum? in your state this is pretty pot/kettle m

not really, it's just a gut feel. like i dont always really notice infinity is there, and occasionally i see a post and my heart sinks a little. gut reads are very much a personal thing, if you feel the same about me or just dont like the way i talk thats fine. at some point i could make a scumcase on someone but my point is that it isnt really the time for that now.

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1 line summary?

i don't even know what he was talking about

ah i was hoping to sheep you to answer enchant. ok Enchant, I'll go with, gun to head, Pookythemagicalbear and the worst for town.

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i'm only really happy about pooky, but really that's based on his care-free townie zeal. also i'm not the smallest poster now so you can see i am gaining strength

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i'm only really happy about pooky, but really that's based on his care-free townie zeal. also i'm not the smallest poster now so you can see i am gaining strength

i'm very care-free as mafia too

my zeal is overwhelmings

i think there is often a noticable difference in vibe, but i can only speak from experience

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i'm only really happy about pooky

also what do you think about me&tammy since that's realistically the only person I am interested in leaving with.

no new thoughts - i'm confident you will leave with tammy, so there isn't anything to discuss. i havent got a bad vibe from tammy, but also havent been really scrutinising. more useful we talk about reads on other players to help me decide what to do.

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interested to hear from enchant too on the 2 picks data

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i meant more that scum feel a need to do things

particularly in this setup where scum can't lurk unnoticed to victory - they need to actively try and get paired up

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not sure what to make of this argument, but agree with Pooky's take earlier that I'm slightly surprised no trust pairs have happened yet. It feels a bit like some people are trying to think several steps ahead which is folly if reads are wrong. although we do have loads of time if we need it.

i dont really understand all the tactics specific to the game, but dont think it really matters - each townie has a responsibility to make their own best judgement and equally not to look like a scumbag.

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yeah seems like a bit of bad vibes, but mostly handled in a controlled way which is good

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also i'll catch up a bit more Monday I think - am reading mostly but not really thinking too much about it!

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Also y'all are playing trust fall wrong. Why is this game almost 60 pages with no one leaving. Utterly baffled

this made me laugh. no idea if it's true, but certainly resonates. catch up imminent

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i don’t think i have a lot to add but i’m at cookie+? for f2.

my most contrarian take is that i’m unsure if klick is scum despite the low wim, there seems to be a cutoff point where he dropped off thats mapped more to the environment of game/real life for him and the stuff he said before was Fine.

cookie’s just narrating what town should be doing

ah your predecessor had a better read on me I think. I was tempted to trust you, but seems like a bad move given you would only reciprocate as scum (and perhaps not even then!). Then again if we're already planning out every pairing we're in possible game-throw territory, so maybe I need to do something. hmmm...

while i read up, anyone got a tl;dr on this whole "plan out the final 4" strategy?

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ah i follow, so assuming we have 6 solidtowns we can guarantee winning because 2 scum must be in the last 4? what's the rationale for each of those 6 being town again? even if 1 only is mafia, it's not the worst situation for end of game.

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tw offered to vote Enchant to conf him and Enchant refused while he could just accept and exit
dwlee (tw) was voted by both me and Enchant and could exit but didn't (plus he could have exited instead of replacing out)
Tammy was voted by both me and dwlee and didn't exit
Ydrasee was voted by dwlee and didn't exit
I was voted by tw and didn't exit

Prism is not as town as the above 5 but is my top townread out of the remaining

ok gotcha. So I'm slightly more convinced by the dwlee and tammy ones than the others - it does make sense tw would have trusted to exit rather than leaving unless particularly worried about the partner getting trusted, and likewise happy to trust the consensus that Tammy-scum would have panicked and bailed by now. That said, with such a defined group of trusted vs non-trusted, I think there's a reasonable chance of 1 scum in the group above wanting to stay and influence in favour of their partner not included above (since not doing so risks losing the game). Also perhaps more importantly, it feels like scum would probably be more motivated to force themselves into that list early to get some mechanical credibility/influence (whereas town could afford to sit back and be more passive). On Enchant, I think enchant-scum could be wary of the tw offer in that scenario (and that wariness did come across in posts).

Why was Pooky so convinced you were scum?

this may come back to bite me (i am delicious), but let's take a gamble.

VOTE: Tammy

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VOTE: Ydrasse

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also worth saying I know me trusting may not mean anything as may not be reciprocated, but nice to be involved and see if I'm right about things (apols if I'm not!).

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They exited, cookie. Lets wait for the flips now

oh lol ok i'll get back to work tomorrow then!

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looks like Ydrasse may have exited with dwlee, so my trust on Tammy can stand. a few flips will help narrow it down though, especially on a re-read. although seems like lots of it may have been a bit argumentative.

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I'm gonna stick with

Vote: Tammy

for today. I'm not sure it matters though if the days are now pre-determined and I'm not pairing until late game (other than for personal pride). and perhaps there is some benefit in democratically assigning specific pairings as a failed pair through an agreed method could be scum-scum. although I'm at risk of talking about town strategy here as Ydrasse said earlier. all I can think is if the townies are very much on the back-foot in influencing decisions, it could play right into scums hands. I guess people will follow their own reads if they have them, for better or worse. Perhaps I should instead focus only on the final 4 players, although maybe it's game over before then. these are mostly musings to myself I think.

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looks like Ydrasse may have exited with dwlee, so my trust on Tammy can stand. a few flips will help narrow it down though, especially on a re-read. although seems like lots of it may have been a bit argumentative.

Scum claim.

im not understanding what you mean? do you have a specific comment to make or just shade to me?

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why was Pookythemagicalbeer so sure Wisdom was scum? not sure if anyone answered that for me. Possibly just a personal animosity between the two players, or something substantial?

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also just realised the first successful pair was my top 2 townreads early in game, which enchant requested. go me!

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Cookie i feel like in your completed large you played much more.. normally? I dont know how to put it

Are you trying to change your playing style for alt purposes here?

i guess the answer is we all evolve as players and post differently in different circumstances. its one of the weaknesses of meta. i think in my only completed game i was criticised early for going against the consensus, but my early reads were wrong and so I adapted swiftly after the first couple flips. it was a town stomp but i did successfully get myself off the shopping block. this is a different game though - I think I was here from the start instead of replacing in?, and it's an open setup which requires a bit more thought and strategy. initially i was very laid back this game and perhaps I should have been more vocal from the start although it hasnt hurt us so far. im not much a big spammer anyway.

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i do feel happy with how i played ok so far though, good initial reads and didn't get into any fisticuffs.

just a thought - scum more likely to distance in this setup, given they may need to justify not pairing with each other?

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Can you give a summary of where you're currently at with reads? The players you have trusted have all already left or are about to.

I'd also like it if you were able translate that speculation about scum distancing into practical application (ie. Are there players that

might

be doing this? I'm not asking you to hard commit any such speculation being right)

yeah most of my focus has been on who to trust, rather than not trust, if that makes sense. although you're right that might not be relevant for my status in this game. I really hope Infinity is not town, ISO is not a good read at all. caught in an inconsistency at the outset (demonstrated knowledge of the rules in first post, and then in like second post claimed to not know the rules to defend someone). but mostly lots of TMI statements like "Player X is town" without any sense of how that opinion was reached, and majorly focussed on finding scum (potentially looking at that final 4 situation and looking to reach a good enough position on the totem pole to get paired with one of the unexplained townreads). I will always try to keep an open mind but bad vibes there for sure. I need to look at other players more closely.

on second question, I hadn't looked at it properly at that stage I was just thinking. It depends on motive. For instance, if Infinity is scum, the focus was on shading mafmen a lot early. Could be that distancing, or could be trying to push someone else down a rung (looking at the ISO it feels a bit more like the latter, although ISO lacks game context). It's probably easier to think about when we narrow down the field - if the wisdom 6 are all town, looking at those mafia pairings should be more useful. do you think its dangerous for me to share too much knowledge? it could make the gamestate easier for mafia to manipulate.

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I'm gonna stick with

Vote: Tammy

for today. I'm not sure it matters though if the days are now pre-determined and I'm not pairing until late game (other than for personal pride). and perhaps there is some benefit in democratically assigning specific pairings as a failed pair through an agreed method could be scum-scum. although I'm at risk of talking about town strategy here as Ydrasse said earlier. all I can think is if the townies are very much on the back-foot in influencing decisions, it could play right into scums hands. I guess people will follow their own reads if they have them, for better or worse. Perhaps I should instead focus only on the final 4 players, although maybe it's game over before then. these are mostly musings to myself I think.

...Revisiting this, I'm just not sure who you're thinking is scummy/towny here?

These pairings had Dwlee and Ydrasse weigh in, both of whom flipped town. They had Tammy weigh in, who you are currently trusting. Are you townreading some of the people left out? Scumreading some number of me/Wisdom/Enchant?

I think I have given thoughts on these earlier but fine to repeat. I don't think the mech reason for Enchant being town is robust, on my gut read, lean town but definitely not a lock. On Wisdom it depends on the answer to my Pooky question - if Pooky had a good reason for thinking Wisdom was scum, I'd want to see what it was before jumping to the conclusion Wisdom is town - he was very vehement about it. I haven't really looked at you at all since that ping earlier for engaging with me - so would need a reread. Although as noted, my thoughts on you 3 are probably not useful as the decision has already been made. I think consensus pairings could be a good strategy overall - although as I wasn't part of that consensus I don't feel the same sense of ownership of them - it isn't from any disrespect to other players that my opinions could differ, and there's naturally some townie paranoia. We even saw yesterday a town player misread me, but I don't take that personally.

I suppose the lack of opposition to that consensus makes me wary it might be something scum are on board with (noting that in that scenario, you could argue I'm prime candidate for scum, although my pov of course i'm not). if scum is like Klick-Infinity, would they really just let the game be taken from them? so maybe, in my paranoid mind, there is scum in the consensus town. and to be fair, if I'm wrong I've hedged my bets because I win anyway.

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If the "Wisdom 6" are town, the game ends in a town win. There's no more narrowing to be had.

ah you're right, but hopefully the principle still makes sense - fewer permutations mean analysing 1-1 relationships is more fruitful.

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I guess Prism I would say I could see a world where you are scum with someone you really don't rate/like. in real time, I was interested in you frequently berating yourself for seemingly no obvious reason, and seeming a bit angry/disgruntled with everything. it would accord a bit with potential scum who are not in the favoured pairings at that stage. included some examples below:

Against my better judgement I caught up on the game.

Not a great game for me readswise.

Overall I'm really struggling to find any townreads...
I guess for now I'll just stay out of the way for the most part.

I fuckin' can't this game lmao

I'll have someone come fetch me when I decide to stop playing like absolute fucking trash

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i don't really see what you'd done so badly though? it was early in Day 1, and with the benefit of hindsight, town players seemed to be the focal point of trust conversations - nothing really bad had happened. Seems quite extreme even from an absolute perfectionist. I can see the argument you would keep composure more as scum and not vent like that though, if you are a really expert player. I don't know you well enough to know if you are a cool cookie under pressure. But equally I can't think of seeing something quite like that before, and often scum players can find it harder to get into the game than town ones (lack of genuine solving mentality etc.) As you kindly offer meta, I'd be interested to see a completed game example of similar behaviour though?

hitting the hay for now, don't worry we'll get there though.

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not much sorting from Klick towards Infinity - just a soft drop of "I'm liking Infinity" without explanation, and a bit of chatter. which is slightly surprising given Klick does attempt to understand alignments of other players in a more meaningful way. Meanwhile Infinity makes an effort to defend Klick a bit without going overboard. which does make some strategic sense in a Klick-Infinity world - no sense trying to distance when the tide is very much against you. At risk of confbias I'd simply say it wouldn't shock me.

Mafmen is a blind spot for me, note to come back to next.

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I would be impressed but surprised if Tammy trusted me over Prism today. I do think it's inevitable Tammy picks Prism, but would prefer not to rush - we have 12 days, it wouldnt hurt to use another day or 2 to chat before we lose 2 more people.

My gut feeling is still to be wary of Prism. One issue is - if Prism is town, given Tammy has expressed some doubts in the read, why aren't scum trying to at least give an alternative (playing devil's advocate you could say I'm scum by that logic, but I know I'm not). A successful town pairing today gives scum no margin for error in subsequent days, even though they will have greater ability to influence the town.

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just catching up on last few pages. slightly surprised to see the charm offensive from Prism to Tammy - seems like a very eager push to lock in a reciprocated trust and leave the game, which doesn't accord well with a player who holds themselves to high standards and would perhaps be happy to remain around to influence the crunch decision(s) later. If Prism really believes she can leave whenever she wants and really cares about solving the game, not sure I understand why she would be so desperate to leave today and not play a part in those decision(s). still reading...

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I'm very worried now that there is scum in the block,

if only because no one is even trying to break out of it

. Perhaps both alignments are worried about the very perception of trying to break out of it.

I am very disappointed that Infinity/Klick have not given serious input into the blocks or made real forays into solving the game. I hope whoever is town is ready to shoulder the loss in 4 way.

TMI - assumes I'm town? or maybe just forgot me, as i'd made the same point earlier

Do you have a specific reason to be wary of me?

I'm going to be arrogant but direct: There's no reason to worry about my alignment anymore. Not a single player currently thinks I'm scum. No one is trying to get in the way of my pairing off. You could argue I'm splitting hairs over Enchant so I can leave, but there's no need. Wisdom wanted to leave with me tomorrow, so all I have to do is wait. If I'm scum with one of Wisdom/Enchant, maybe this extended distancing/demoralization would make some sense to really put the game away, but this is not only counterfactual but extremely tenuous and there's no reason to even raise the red flag. Wisdom's plan had me leaving with him, so that pairing especially should really go out the window.

And if my partner isn't Enchant/Wisdom, why am I even trying to leave? The final 4 is a coinflip shitshow with basically a 50% EV regardless of which of them my partner is. I don't do 50/50s. If there is even a ghost of a chance of losing the game, I will do whatever it takes [/b]to crush the town completely.

All of this should be enough to believe I am town, but even in a hypothetical world where none of the above is true, it is welldocumented that I am happy to demoralize and demotivate town and make the game unfun to play. If scum-me wants to get out, it's probably mutually beneficial to let me, because otherwise I'm going to keep sucking the energy out of the game.

Unfortunately this is a really good illustration of why it makes more sense for you to be scum here than town. If you are a player who really cares about winning, why try so hard to leave? In my head, Prism-town wants to stay and help unpick the challenging 'coinflip' to maximise chances of victory (especially given Prism's own doubts about Enchant and Wisdom being town given the complacent vibes in thread). Prism-scum wants to leave because that's half the wincon achieved, but presumably trusts partner to get a trust also.

I think, with a cool breeze and fresh eyes, the idea of a 'final 4 coinflip' being locked in is a bit of a false dilemma when we get down to the final 6, as the final 6 will be in the same situation as Tammy now - faced with a genuine conundrum of who to trust.

I won't get into the final bit which seems to amount to "Tammy, even if I'm scum, you should just throw the game and trust me, or I'm gonna be a jerk to everyone and ruin the game". Have to say that's a big red flag.

So yeah, if it was me, I probably don't trust Prism today. I think town-Prism would agree with me. If that means looking outside of me and Prism, I actually think that's preferable - time is on our side.

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just catching up on last few pages. slightly surprised to see the charm offensive from Prism to Tammy - seems like a very eager push to lock in a reciprocated trust and leave the game, which doesn't accord well with a player who holds themselves to high standards and would perhaps be happy to remain around to influence the crunch decision(s) later. If Prism really believes she can leave whenever she wants and really cares about solving the game, not sure I understand why she would be so desperate to leave today and not play a part in those decision(s). still reading...

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thats what you took from what she said?
big misrep there

can you explain what you mean here?

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The entire reconsideration of the block was started by my insistence on rereading and double-checking. The plan was for Tammy to go with Enchant then Wisdom goes with me tomorrow. I have no reason to panic as scum and grovel at Tammy's feet for a trust.

I have every reason to double check on Enchant and every reason to be frustrated with the prospect of a dysfunctional and inactive final four.

I think we have time to get into the detail. I know your argument was that if you were scum it was more likely you were scum with Enchant or Wisdom - which might make the wrong pairing combination a bit awkward - since S-S can't pair up.

I don't know if I'd use the word "grovel", but to me you definitely seemed to be pushing it quite hard to manipulate Tammy with a full range of tactics over the last few pages. The key point though is you have less reason to take this approach as town than as scum. My view is Town-Prism wants to pair Tammy with Prism's top remaining townread today, and then Prism herself makes the decisive winning pick tomorrow - given Prism is a highly gifted player who loves to win at all costs. Town-Prism being anxious to leave today with no real certainty about how subsequent days should be played? Doesn't make sense in that world.

In contrast, lots of reasons scum-Prism might be keen to leave. One example is scum-Prism could be wary that stagnant games can sometimes see people go off-piste, and safer to lock in 1 escape now than risk 2 days of jeopardy.

Of course I could be wrong, but it's difficult to see how your approach today lines up with your own assessment of yourself and the logical strategy for town in this setup. Hope that makes sense!

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this is probably a cold take, but i think cookie is actually the scum who wants prism not to pair

no you could definitely be onto something
their late game has been kinda crap tbqh

or maybe I'm wrong and scum team has just woken up? Although struggle to see how shading me achieves much here for a MafMen-Infinity team, so probably not! also makes either of them being scum with Prism less likely.

happy to hear from mafmen why my play is crap. am i not explaining the logic clearly enough? i feel like the points themselves are pretty clear. Infinity's take is fine - definitely makes sense but also something I acknowledged myself as a possibility.

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just catching up on last few pages. slightly surprised to see the charm offensive from Prism to Tammy - seems like a very eager push to lock in a reciprocated trust and leave the game, which doesn't accord well with a player who holds themselves to high standards and would perhaps be happy to remain around to influence the crunch decision(s) later. If Prism really believes she can leave whenever she wants and really cares about solving the game, not sure I understand why she would be so desperate to leave today and not play a part in those decision(s). still reading...

?
thats what you took from what she said?
big misrep there

can you explain what you mean here?

my bad probably more accurate to call it strawmanning

are you able to be specific? in what way do you think it was strawmanning? I don't see it.

[cool cookie]

I think I prefer Tammy/Cookie

Enchant/Prism might hide a scum in them if not both. It's true that the designated final 4 are far too okay with the plan for this to be good

if there had to be a scum in enchant/wisdom id be leaning wisdom just for this post tbh

because it argues for me being town?

or because Enchant and Prism both being scum doesn't explain why the final 4 would be happy with the plan of them pairing off early?

good to clarify what you mean here

[cool cookie]

just catching up on last few pages. slightly surprised to see the charm offensive from Prism to Tammy - seems like a very eager push to lock in a reciprocated trust and leave the game, which doesn't accord well with a player who holds themselves to high standards and would perhaps be happy to remain around to influence the crunch decision(s) later. If Prism really believes she can leave whenever she wants and really cares about solving the game, not sure I understand why she would be so desperate to leave today and not play a part in those decision(s). still reading...

?
thats what you took from what she said?
big misrep there

can you explain what you mean here?

my bad probably more accurate to call it strawmanning

are you able to be specific? in what way do you think it was strawmanning? I don't see it.

because you somehow got "prism is desperately trying to exit the game" instead of "prism is anxious about the alignments of wisdom/enchant"
its definitely not a good look to misrep someones argument this hard

This suggests to me you can't have read the last 5 pages, which makes me feel slightly better about your assessment my play in that time has been crap. In my view, both the above are true, and I did opine on both. Prism did express uncertainty about the alignments of Wisdom and Enchant. Prism also launched an increasingly urgent campaign to get Tammy to trust her. Prism herself has acknowledged this was the case. In places it was subtle and neat, in others it was completely unabashed and explicit. I'm not sure what else I can say if you haven't read the relevant posts, but simply - not guilty on the charge of misrep.

my next question would be, why does a town player falsely accuse someone of misrep? error perhaps. although backtracking from "misrep" to "strawman" under pressure and then going back to "misrep" is interesting. even if you were correct, not sure strawmanning is the right term.

[cool cookie]

1714 gives me an aneurysm because it's divining that my confidence in my scumgame is equivalent to my confidence in my towngame and ability to solocarry. It spins a hypothetical alternative around that false equivalence and directly dismisses the original scum description out of convenience. I have an extensive record of solocarrying games as scum and not losing my composure even in a 4 way where town got 3 guesses on the last scum. I have an extensive record of trying this hard, getting this frustrated, and being unable to carry it as town.

I think you're overthinking the amount of actual evidence i had here - i simply took what you said and deduced it was more likely you are scum than town. if your defence amounts to "I'm great as scum, but useless as town" I'd say that is inconsistent with your previous assertion of setting very high standards for yourself as town.

[cool cookie]

oh i just saw what happened. damn.

but if true there's nothing more i could have done - i tried to my best to explain a Prism-scum scenario here. at least it would mean MafMen was wrong to call me crap.

[cool cookie]

I'll admit I don't really understand what just happened, but happy for Prism to get a good result as town, even with the trolling. Should be an easy ride now, even if I'm frozen out.

Tammy to pick today for the win? My gut is Tammy-Wisdom to seal it.

VOTE: Tammy

[cool cookie]

i guess it could only be that Prism genuinely wasnt enjoying the game, which would explain being so desperate to leave. would have to call that outcome a bit of good luck though.

[cool cookie]

at least for my own reads I can get some quality back if the scumteam is Infinity-Klick lol

[cool cookie]

I possible "scumclaim" with this statement but i disagree with Wisdom pairing someone.

assuming you're town, don't you think it would be a bit risky and counter-productive for Wisdom-scum to try and pair me with Tammy yesterday, leaving Prism-town to potentially pair with you (or really anyone) for the win? And it doesn't make sense in a Wisdom-Cookie scumteam world either, as Wisdom would just be frozen out as soon as I flipped scum as the only player really backing me. I'm not saying Wisdom is locktown, but we've got a good chance to close it out today and Wisdom seems like the best bet to me (and it was also Prism's parting wish).

Tammy's choice again though obviously.

[cool cookie]

good game, i really enjoyed it!

and despite a couple people saying I played bad/terrible/weird, i correctly picked scumteam and only had 1 bad read, and was at times pretty well trusted for an unknown and despite mafia efforts to undermine me, so I'm happy with my contribution.