Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[MafMen]

egopost
implosion is clearly locktown with his green name

[MafMen]

I'm curious guys, since the L word isn't allowed on this site, are alternatives like hang, execute, etc. allowed?

generally yes
the go to word for this site is elimination, or lim for short

[MafMen]

ie. “lets lim catboi for being a weeb”

[MafMen]

hey folks. glad I didn't miss too much during the night. I'm going to

VOTE FrogsFrogs

because I think we should kick someone out night one and FrogsFrogs a) is already 1 vote closer to being hammered and b) hasn't said anything yet.

Also want to note that I did a tarot reading for this game last morning as a little bit of fun, I'm not sure if it's proper etiquette to dump a huge wall of text on day one, but here's a link to it. https://pastebin.com/LWGiTnt2. Omens look fairly good for this game, got a couple cards indicating a town victory.

a bit early for a lim dont you think?

[MafMen]

hey folks. glad I didn't miss too much during the night. I'm going to

VOTE FrogsFrogs

because I think we should kick someone out night one and FrogsFrogs a) is already 1 vote closer to being hammered and b) hasn't said anything yet.

Also want to note that I did a tarot reading for this game last morning as a little bit of fun, I'm not sure if it's proper etiquette to dump a huge wall of text on day one, but here's a link to it. https://pastebin.com/LWGiTnt2. Omens look fairly good for this game, got a couple cards indicating a town victory.

a bit early for a lim dont you think?

Possibly. I was of the understanding that the meta is to vote someone out on the first day essentially at random, and then look at how people behaved during that vote for tells. I don't want to knock Frogs out *right* now before we've had the chance to see how people react to that, but fortunately there's a long way to go before five votes. I feel odd just voting for joke reasons-this game has to move forward somehow after all.

understandable
if im gonna wave my SE hat around generally you never want to eliminate someone at random, sure day 1 it’s statistically better than a nolim but youd want to get some reasoning behind that first
and 9 days is a lot longer than it seems lol

[MafMen]

for reference on why nolimming day one is bad

9
no lim + nightkill
8
elim + nightkill
6
no elim (because it's miselim and lose) + nightkill
5


9
elim + nightkill
7
elim + nightkill
5

[MafMen]

Greetings!

I don’t like Aristotle and I guess this extends to wannabes/imposters. VOTE: pseudoAristotle

What's your beef with him?

I don’t like Ancient Greek philosophers. I know literally nothing about the player.

say what you want about phiolosphers but dont diss my man diogenes

[MafMen]

One other small advice for pseudoAristotle: it's generally a good idea to put votes on separate lines (i.e. not in the middle of a sentence like in 17). This is just a quality of life thing for mods, since votes in the middle of lines are easy to miss.

And yeah, echoing MafMen: we don't really eliminate "at random". One day is plenty of time to get reads on people. I don't really have any material reads yet but I've had plenty of games where I have some real reads at this point.

good point
ive hosted a few games off site and it was absolute hell to sort through unfairly positioned votes
a simple thing i learned is to use f3 but sometimes even that doesnt save you

[MafMen]

i would hope puck would support my tirade against weebs
hes the goat for a reason

[MafMen]

igorsprite and pseudo interaction looks weird but i think its green for both sides
greeting seems probtown, i like their presence

[MafMen]

igorsprite and pseudo interaction looks weird but i think its green for both sides
greeting seems probtown, i like their presence

VOTE: MafMen
Maf's post is pinging me hard, he's townreading the two newbies for an NAI interaction. Bad case of TMI. And greeting has only one post of substance. This is scum trying to make filler content and fakereading
Get on this guy

i would love you to tell me why newbie scum goes "if i knew who mafia was i wouldnt tell you "
there is no world you can convince me that their interaction is NAI, it is the most AI thing to happen this game

[MafMen]

i respect the effort though

[MafMen]

sorry i didnt really treat what he said about greeting as the crux of his argument
i think its good to question aristotle there and the fact he didnt take any major stance on a weird post like that is nice

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you interpret my usage of 'probtown' and words like that, i personally didnt take it that strong of a strong term but i suppose i should switch up my vocab

[MafMen]

sorry i didnt really treat what he said about greeting as the crux of his argument
i think its good to question aristotle there and the fact he didnt take any major stance on a weird post like that is nice

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you interpret my usage of 'probtown' and words like that, i personally didnt take it that strong of a term but i suppose i should switch up my vocab

ebwop
threw in an extra strong where it wasnt needed

[MafMen]

i am admittedly scrounging for stuff to post though because i want to move this game forward
this games pretty inactive compared to others

[MafMen]

i am admittedly scrounging for stuff to post though because i want to move this game forward
this games pretty inactive compared to others

You're hardly doing yourself a favour by throwing out wild reads. Why are you calling one one word post "presence"? The fact that you avoided engaging on your Greeting read speaks volumes more than if you had.
Who's giving ya the most scum pings right now? Or no one in particular?

its not ‘wild reads’ as i do have town pings from them but im arguing semantics at that point
im not getting scumpings from anyone, i generally find it easier in rvs to find a townread rather than a scumread

[MafMen]

sorry i didnt really treat what he said about greeting as the crux of his argument
i think its good to question aristotle there and the fact he didnt take any major stance on a weird post like that is nice

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you interpret my usage of 'probtown' and words like that, i personally didnt take it that strong of a strong term but i suppose i should switch up my vocab

@implosion
idk if u guys didnt find this adequate but w/e

[MafMen]

Do you have any general thoughts on your wagon or specific thoughts on if you think any of the votes on you are particularly town or scum indicative?

theres an argument to be made about igor seeming a little opportunistic on his vote on me but i think his blatant refusal to explain further comes off as townie
if i had to wager a guess i would say my wagon looks pretty pure and scum hadnt committed to it as it would likely die soon anyway

[MafMen]

i like thynhith’s little ‘gotcha’ moment and the way he seems hyped to seemingly catching scum looks super genuine

[MafMen]

sorry i didnt really treat what he said about greeting as the crux of his argument
i think its good to question aristotle there and the fact he didnt take any major stance on a weird post like that is nice

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you interpret my usage of 'probtown' and words like that, i personally didnt take it that strong of a strong term but i suppose i should switch up my vocab

@implosion
idk if u guys didnt find this adequate but w/e

sorry i didnt really treat what he said about greeting as the crux of his argument
i think its good to question aristotle there and the fact he didnt take any major stance on a weird post like that is nice

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you interpret my usage of 'probtown' and words like that, i personally didnt take it that strong of a strong term but i suppose i should switch up my vocab

@implosion
idk if u guys didnt find this adequate but w/e

sorry i didnt really treat what he said about greeting as the crux of his argument
i think its good to question aristotle there and the fact he didnt take any major stance on a weird post like that is nice

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you interpret my usage of 'probtown' and words like that, i personally didnt take it that strong of a strong term but i suppose i should switch up my vocab

@implosion
idk if u guys didnt find this adequate but w/e

sorry i didnt really treat what he said about greeting as the crux of his argument
i think its good to question aristotle there and the fact he didnt take any major stance on a weird post like that is nice

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you interpret my usage of 'probtown' and words like that, i personally didnt take it that strong of a strong term but i suppose i should switch up my vocab

@implosion
idk if u guys didnt find this adequate but w/e

yeesh

[MafMen]

sorry idk how to express my thoughts, but basically i don't feel guilty because i'm town. is wrong to think this way?

ur not wrong and there hasnt really been any reason to say otherwise
if u do what u want ur genuineness will be noticed

just stick to making reads and dont second guess urself

[MafMen]

i disagree with igor being scum here
he fits in the category of twtbaw, the tells are too blatantly obvious for them to flip red

sorry idk how to express my thoughts, but basically i don't feel guilty because i'm town. is wrong to think this way?

this post gives a good insight into igors mindset and i think this makes him look ptownie


i think my wagon was pretty pure so im personally dealing with a poe of margot, implosion, and frogsfrogs
theres for sure

atleast

one wolf in that comp if not two, but im not 100% confident in saying my wagon was all green

[MafMen]

oh boy
igor for future reference never claim as pr unless absolutely necessary, you werent really at a risk of dying there man

[MafMen]

if theres any ccs then i guess we lim igor but i highly doubt that was fake

[MafMen]

mafia literally never claims pr there no matter how much of a newbie u are
unnescessary carefulness

[MafMen]

66% chance of maf cop then
roleblocks announce right?

[MafMen]

I think this is as good a place as any to start while I catch up.

Contrary to implosion, I think his jump to setup speculation was obviously anti-town, and using it a reason to townread something is fishy in itself.

VOTE: implosion

wheres the setup speculation?

[MafMen]

VOTE: Val89

[MafMen]

calling what you said setup speculation is gross and disingenuous
hes trying to shade it and ram home the idea its antitown while what hes saying isnt even correct
it just all around looks forced

[MafMen]

you labeled it as setup speculation and that was not what it was
greeting weighed gave their own opinions on what pr should do in each setup and that is in no way antitown, especially considering he is right in all of his tips

[MafMen]

you labeled it as setup speculation and that was not what it was
greeting gave their own opinions on what pr should do in each setup and that is in no way antitown, especially considering he is right in all of his tips

ebwop
anyway you cant just hide from being called out like that by saying "id be engaging in the antitown behavior i tried to avoid if i explained it"

[MafMen]

do so then
he wasnt speculating on which we could be in but what we should do
you are misrepresenting what he said like crazy

[MafMen]

the game will never last long enough for mafia to clean those players
you said it yourself it is not an exact science so in why tf do you get this concerned over it

also no guarantee either me or greeting are 100% vts

[MafMen]

Right; Let me be absolutely crystal clear here.

If you agree with this pair, and that I am misrepresenting this issue, and that it is perfectly fine as town to speculate on what column we might be in, and that I'm doing this 'misrepresentation' because I am scum, you can signal that agreement by VOTING ME.

DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ENGAGE IN ANY ALTERNATIVE SPECULATION YOURSELF UNTIL THIS IS SORTED

You can do so after, once this situation is resolved one way or another if you still agree with these two and think it will help town.

Not to mention that your thesis contradicts your earlier vote on me. If I'm scum then why would I be doing this analysis here and not in the scum thread? If I'm "clumsy town" who gives out clues to the scums then why are you voting for me?

Scum already which column we are in. The problem I have with you both, and it only increases the more you try and drive us down this rabbit hole and try and confuse what is a very clear cut issue, is that by openly discussing what you think should happen if it happens to be a JK, or if it happens to be a Doc, or a FN, is you run the risk of inducing other slots to ALSO do so. You can sit there and try and an wave it away with WIFOM, and say "Well, actually maybe I am the other PR, and maybe theoretically I went to the trouble of posting all these walls and imploring all the other slots not to claim today and explaining why that was bad knowing that nobody would because I'm that PR, and I drew all this attention to myself in order to paradoxically hide myself", but if your ARE town, scum still can now go and pick over your posts tonight and have a discussion about how likley that is or not, when they

would simply not have had any clues at all

had you not said anything in the first place. Again, I am concerned about other slots being induced to comment, other slots that scum can perhaps draw inferences as to how likley they are to be actually WIFOMing based on experiance or whatever.

It's quite simple. People listen to you, and start running thier mouths, scum get info they wouldn't otherwise have and get to make a judgment call on who is WIFOMing and who isn't. They listen to me, they don't. If people think I'm running some sort of scam here, they can vote me, as long as they don't buy your argument that this is OK to speculate about, because it isn't.

But here is thing, I think at least one of you already knows that, and you are scum, and you were hoping that by speculating, you might get pseudo, or Thyn, or whomever to do the same and glean some info you might not already have.

youre right it is very clear cut
there is absolutely no speculation of which setup we are in and you are still trying to drive this through

i couldnt give less of a shit about whether or not people weigh in on this, my goal in this argument was to ascertain why you believed greeting is antitown/scum over this because i believe you are wrong for it and also how you came to the conclusion that any of what they said was setup speculation

you

are the one complicating this, no one else

[MafMen]

greeting has very clearly left it intentionally ambiguous and i havent the faintest idea how you think otherwise

[MafMen]

[MafMen]

You know what? Normally, I don’t do this but this time I think it’s worth it.

Put me at E-1 and I’ll hammer myself. On the condition that you vote out Val89 the next day.

???
bro what why

[MafMen]

im with you for a lot of this then suddenly you whip that out
if you are town you should never selfhammer, there is no precedent for you to do so

one for one type deals are also bad

[MafMen]

the only time selfhammering

might

come in use is when youre scum intending to cut discussion

[MafMen]

oh cool im late so i sound like a parroting idiot
whatevs

[MafMen]

You know what? Normally, I don’t do this but this time I think it’s worth it.

Put me at E-1 and I’ll hammer myself. On the condition that you vote out Val89 the next day.

The offer’s on the table. Of course that means we’ll lose one townie, but the beauty of being a VT (yes, this is a claim) is that my sacrifice wouldn’t necessarily be bad for town. And if it takes down a scum then I think it’s worth it.

awesome
go ahead and completely contradict everything i said in one post
thats great

[MafMen]

do you guys have any idea of what i should do? '^'

a good place to start in mafia is to just throw any ideas you get out there (preferably doublechecking that it isnt bad for town) until you get a foothold for yourself and create your unique playstyle

[MafMen]

this may be arguing semantics but once again val it is not setup speculation
your flippant abuse of that is wild

[MafMen]

Well, if we are going to open that door; I've noticed that both you and MafMen are routinely hiding your online status.

Given that it appears activity-based meta is something you think worth pointing out, are you hoping to hide something that way?

why am i getting dragged into this
i always play on invisible because of a dogshit meta of saying someone is lurking if you so much as see that they are online

[MafMen]

what do you define "setup speculation" as then, yourself, Mafmen

speculating on what the setup is
so if greeting was trying to figure out what the other pr is, thats setup speculation
giving his own two cents on what the pr could do in each setup is not speculating

[MafMen]

do you guys have any idea of what i should do? '^'

It'd potentially help if you were more open with your thought process; this isn't *as* important in this game as it would be in an average game since your claim makes you very likely town, but it could help if you gave more examples of things you agreed/disagreed with, found indicative of people being townish/scummy, etc.

Right now I'm generally happy with the game state; I have no particular impetus to do much until Thynhith is able to post more and respond to the pressure on him.

hmm... i think that greeting is sus because he is talking too much and that self hammer thing was weird, and i sus frogsfrogs too for sitting on the fence. for the others i don't have any specific thoughts

But you don't think Val89 or MafMen are sus for doing the exact same thing?

Sure, self-hammer play is controversial, but it doesn't make sense for me to do that while being scum.

If I'm scum, get put at E-1 and do as I said I would, then I will flip scum and no one will listen to what I had to say. Or they will be trying to find out whom I was protecting or deflecting attention from. Also, my team will now consist of just one player.

If I'm put at E-1 and don't do as I said I would, that will be suspicious in its own right and most likely someone else will hammer me anyway. And in the unlikely case that town is unable to find any other player to hammer me, then this will be brought up against me for the rest of the game.

Sounds like pretty poor deal for a scum to be fair. I wouldn't have done that if I were scum or a town PR. It would be unlikely for me to do that in most games, but like I said multiple times before, I think this time it's worth it.

trying to explain why something you did is towny, does not make it more towny

[MafMen]

UNVOTE:

[MafMen]

this may be arguing semantics but once again val it is not setup speculation

Well, if it's a semantic problem, what would you prefer to call it?

My issue is that saying "we could have a JK, or an FN, or a Doc, at these probabilities" (and I say the correct word for that is 'speculation', but I am open to alternatives) is saying "I am not in a position to CC Igors claim" before everyone who could have CCd that claim checked in; and further more implying that, if Igors claim was un-CCd, he doesn't know the pairing that goes with it, was essentially a huge clue to scum that he was a VT, and might prompt others to give clues as well, and that is anti-town.

Now he have an explicit VT claim; so my point has been basically proven.

What would call that, if you think setup speculation defines something else?

because i couldnt understand why you were so hung up on it
i dont see the correlation between accidentally slipping a VT claim and speculating on the setup but whatever, i kind of see where youre coming from

[MafMen]

if anything couldnt that be understood as a bit of a derpclear?

[MafMen]

if anything couldnt that be understood as a bit of a derpclear?

forget i said that scum in all 3 pairings can just as easily make that post

[MafMen]

there is no realistic game where that defense would ever work LOL

[MafMen]

Sorry, but that's bullshit. It's basically the only defense that would fly.

You are trying to tell me if you are scum, you would consider shooting a claimed VT with 2 PRs outstanding, unless you thought there was a chance they were lying?

there is a good chance that any mafia in a game decides to shoot a townread player instead of doing a potentially low reward act of pr hunting
theres also shit like fearkilling

[MafMen]

youre trying to tell me that in this hypothetical world of yours where the vt slip makes greeting scum, they did it so when theyre wide townread they could go "haha im not dead because scum is pr hunting"?
what?
in what world has greeting done something to be widely townread?

[MafMen]

Sorry, but that's bullshit. It's basically the only defense that would fly.

You are trying to tell me if you are scum, you would consider shooting a claimed VT with 2 PRs outstanding, unless you thought there was a chance they were lying?

PR roles can be useless if their players can’t make good use of them. Plus, some PR roles are stronger than others. If I were scum, I wouldn’t care more about a Friendly Neighbor than a claimed VT who has had good suspicions.

this is not the right take to have in this position
you are not helping my case

[MafMen]

Yes, and if a slot is Universally townread, or has a repuation deserving of fearkilling, the only reasonable excuse when town start wondering "Why the hell are you still alive? is "Well, scum must have decided this is the situation it's worth PR hunting instead".

That was exactly my point.

and then absolutely nobody will believe it

[MafMen]

What strange world have I woke up in when the newbies are consistently making more sense then the supposed SEs.

Can some other people weigh in here, please, because I am starting to doubt my reality.

Are these two talking out their arses, or have I taken a blow to the head or something?

complain about my skill level to back up a lack of understanding about mafia mindset

[MafMen]

mind you greeting is off in a world of their own

[MafMen]

Yeah, I agree, but all the takes he gives that make me go "What the fuck?"; you seem to end up defending or complaining about semantics or whatever.

I wonder if there is some of sort of comprehension issue between the two of us and we are debating two different issues without realising.

honestly i wouldnt be surprised LOL
i havent agreed with (no offense greeting) any of his takes, from what i understood the difference in opinion is whether or not they are towny or scummy for them

[MafMen]

was this so called wild and antitown play me disagreeing with your takes on greeting?
my only stance ive ever had throughout this entire argument is that your takes on greeting are completely ass backwards and downright wrong

Sorry, but that's bullshit. It's basically the only defense that would fly.

You are trying to tell me if you are scum, you would consider shooting a claimed VT with 2 PRs outstanding, unless you thought there was a chance they were lying?

there is a good chance that any mafia in a game decides to shoot a townread player instead of doing a potentially low reward act of pr hunting
theres also shit like fearkilling

Can some other people weigh in here, please, because I am starting to doubt my reality.

Are these two talking out their arses, or have I taken a blow to the head or something?

Yeah no, sorry MafMen, you're misreading Val's argument here I think. It's not "does a VT claim survive until late game", it's "if you are still around in late game as scum, how do you defend yourself?" He's saying claiming VT early prepares a narrative. That's what I'm reading, at least.

yes and im saying that defense will never work because its completely unbelievable

[MafMen]

Maybe it would be completely unbelievable to you, perhaps, but it only takes a slot or two to buy it - and it's much better than having NO excuse, right?

and thats where my problems lies
this level of theory crafting for scum!greeting to have employed a strategy thats only better than having nothing is nonsense
not to mention it is a huggeeeeeeeeee ass stretch

[MafMen]

I wasn't refering to you, I was replying to Greeting there. Sorry for not making it clear.

ah my bad thought that bottom part was directed at me since the top had my name in it lol

[MafMen]

now is that directed at me or frogs lol? if its me then i have absolutely understood
scum!greeting claims vt early to set up the defense of "im alive because mafia is pr hunting" if they are still around in the lategame
and like i said that is a huge stretch

[MafMen]

For the newer players amongst us, if this wasn't clear - apart from the obvious fact that it reduces the townspace for our PRs to hide amogst; the other reason claiming or hinting you are a VT this early is scummy as hell is because it sets up the excuse as to why a scum player doesn't die at night.

In normal circumstances, if a player you might expect mafia to eliminate; because they are widely townread, for example, is constantly surviving the NK, you might start to draw conclusions from that, and scum want to have something in place to point to to explain why they are still alive on D4 or whatever. In this case, that will be "well, they want to take out the PRs, obviously, so why would they shoot me?" rather than the actual reason being mafia obvious don't NK mafia.

tf is this then if not exactly what i just said
anyway the claim does nothing for town

[MafMen]

which is why i said i dont agree with anything theyve done, just how youve interpreted them

[MafMen]

anyway the claim does nothing for town

OK. If you mean nothing positive for town, I agree. Progress.

What does it do for scum?

it does what you proposed yes
but crazy thought, what about every other reality where greeting is just town making a blunder?

[MafMen]

That isn't what you've been saying all this time, is? If you had said "Yeah, Val is right, Greeting is hurting town's prospects here, but I just think he is silly town, not scum", we would have been having a totally different conversation this entire time.

If a player is acting in a way that hurts town and benefits scum, particulary a player who tells us the've played about 30 mafia games, and still doesn't recognise what they are doing is anti-town; then I think it's incumbent on YOU, MafMen, to tell the rest of the field why it's more likely that player is town, and the player pointing it out is scum; as you originally infered when you voted me for doing so.

that is literally exactly what ive been doing jesus christ

[MafMen]

That's funny, because I've been labouring all this time under the impression you've spent pages arguing that what Greeting has been doing is perfectly acceptable, and that I'm running some sort of gross and disingenuous mafia scam for taking issue with it.

Let's try and back up a little then.

Are you townreading Greeting, and if so, what makes you think he is more likley to town who is torpeding our chances over just actually being scum?

Why did you vote me, and why have you now unvoted?

I think I find it a lot easier to correctly sort your slot if I actually know what your positions actually are, and if any progression there looks genuine. I want to make sure I have at least a half decent handle on this because like I said before, I think you and Thynhith aren't scum together and Thyn is currently liable to be today's lim.

the issue came with you misrepresenting greeting, which is why i initially placed the vote because i thought it was fake asf
i realized i pretty much agreed with you on what theyre doing is harmful after the whole "ill self hammer" shenanigan and them outright claiming vt thus i unvoted

[MafMen]

also why is he more likely to be scum?
while irrational his thought process is genuine

[MafMen]

set up speculation is a scumtell
greeting was not speculating on our setup
ergo i found you pushing that narrative wolfy
and i now understand you just have a flawed view of what setup speculation is

otherwise yeah i agree with you that greeting has done harmful things however he isnt scum for doing them
town is just as capable of doing harmful things as scum are

[MafMen]

yup thats exactly it but to clarify, just because ive changed my mind on one point doesnt mean i view you as town

im currently looking at two of (you, frogs, implosion, thynhith) with one probably in you/thyn as the short interaction two had against eachother was too bizarre to say it was tvt

[MafMen]

I really thought Greeting and Val were both town arguing from different experience but this has absolutely spiraled now. :S

I guess I'd prefer to be talking about Val's new info from 180 re: Thynhith. I think it has some merit. The mentioned posts seemed totally town lean to me, but with greater context putting some doubt on them I see not much else I like?

VOTE: Thynhith

Thread has really ballooned quickly. Not surprised to see that with Val in the game. Focusing on me atp would be derailing town. I would advise everyone to look at Val/Greeting more carefully. There's definitely something there that irks me, and I'll get a reread on the day as soon as I can.
One interesting thing of note is that scum!Val in our last game had a similar argument with Margot. Won't regale you with all the details, but he'll definitely try his best to come away looking townier. In fact his insistence on getting stuck on a seemingly less important point could be a red flag in itself, to trip up town and control the thread.

Consider this a notice for decreased activity for a few days. Have a bunch of irl stuff coming up, so expect me to be dipping out.

this post was disgusting enough to make me drop my thynhith townlean
telling people not to focus on him and only on the argument between you and greeting when there was absolutely no pressure on him iirc is suspect
reeks of omgus as well

[MafMen]

Why frogs and implosion? Those are both townreads to me, or is that why?

How are you feeling about catboi, presently?

nope
i felt a majority of my old wagon looked pure so im just shooting outside of it
i havent really seen anything from implosion or frogs that i could gleam as majorly alignment indicative so theyre just in the poe for now
im open to hearing other perspectives on them of course but /shrug

[MafMen]

@Maf I was asking people not to focus on me when they had a potentially telling interaction by Val. There was nothing on me then, why should I stress out?

thats my point, you had nothing on you other than val with a slight scumread so being redirecting non existent pressure off of you makes you look like a jumpy wolf
what can i say

[MafMen]

@Maf I was asking people not to focus on me when they had a potentially telling interaction by Val. There was nothing on me then, why should I stress out?

thats my point, you had nothing on you other than val with a slight scumread so redirecting non existent pressure off of you makes you look like a jumpy wolf
what can i say

ebwop

[MafMen]

sorry my brain skipped your catboi question
ill get to you on that in a min after i iso them

[MafMen]

i have half a mind to townlean them just because i mindmeld with a lot of what they have said
its a bit bizarre for me of all people to be commenting on this but their reasoning for being on my wagon feels about as dull as igor, except ones an SE and ones a newb PR but given that i was, and probably still am widely scumread i dont blame them that much for it, but its atleast enough for me to take back the "my wagon looks pure" comment

[MafMen]

since no ones here im just gonna peace out

[MafMen]

tbf in the games ive played people would get all suspicious when i used "when" instead of "if" in regards to my own alignment

[MafMen]

also wym conversational i wanted to be as helpful as i could in the early game

[MafMen]

great
in hindsight val having this one or the other policy with me and thyn is awful
its like he was setting himself up for failure

no deaths means one of three things
doc save
jk save
jk rb mafia

bonus option: mafia willingly didnt kill?

[MafMen]

mm nvm that info gives us nothing forget i said anything

[MafMen]

VOTE: Val89
ill plant it here for a while

[MafMen]

Hm, the thought was that mafmen was getting himself entangled in an argument with Val for the sake of arguing against someone he knew was using faulty reasoning and get wrapped up in that rather than making real contributions. I don't know how much I want to commit to that view right now but certainly don't townlean there on review.

i thought his argument was wolfy not that it just had 'faulty reasoning'
once we clarified our stances the argument was dropped

[MafMen]

igor

technically

you werent wrong in this situation but its always good to use your action just in case

[MafMen]

activity has been a major problem this game yea lol

[MafMen]

i make up like a 5th of a 9 player game
that is not good

[MafMen]

i cba to put effort into a game when theres like 10 posts every 24 hours so id love to call it a day and just say one of frogs/catboi is wolf because both are in my poe but i probably need more effort than that to reach the quota

[MafMen]

im sticking with what i know best and thats that val is maybe possibly a filthy wolf
i could be convinced on eiither frogs or catboi i guess

[MafMen]

lets look at scum!igor
igor gets catboi hanged, makes it a 5v2
nightkill, 4v2
hang igor, 4v1
nk, 3v1
that is forcing mylo, scum!igor does this is if his partner is very widely townread

[MafMen]

im more inclined to be against catboi here though
its a strange play to make for newb scum

[MafMen]

@implosion idk, i said that to instigate catboi because i think that he is scum and his reaction now just confirms that for me. btw we have a jailkeeper that targeted me, not a doctor, idk how catboi knew that because i said that a doctor targeted me

@catboi wtf, bad idea. why do you want the jailkeeper to CC me instead of the "true" tracker? for me you just want to know who is the jailkeeper because you already know that i'm the tracker

jailkeeper targeted you? so youre saying you just cooked up a bunch of nonsense for no reason

[MafMen]

catbois reaction was pretty gross though yeah
despite the weird townplay igor has remained uncced this entire game, the immediate jump when you get tested is whack
VOTE: catboi

[MafMen]

MafMen: Still think the argument that his first few posts were bad holds water and I haven't actually seen anything from him since that makes me townread. Pushing Val today is dumb and looks like scum grabbing at what they think is a viable train, since he's been controversial.

pushing an easy vote so he must be scum!!!!!! jfc
occam's razor, the simplest answer is likely the correct one

[MafMen]

MafMen: Still think the argument that his first few posts were bad holds water and I haven't actually seen anything from him since that makes me townread. Pushing Val today is dumb and looks like scum grabbing at what they think is a viable train, since he's been controversial.

pushing an easy vote so he must be scum!!!!!! jfc
occam's razor, the simplest answer is likely the correct one

Said in the exact same sentence that I think a Val vote is a bad one ,

plus

the fact that there's maybe enough support to get a lim on him.

"viable train, since hes been controversial"
not about to have this type of shit incriminate me LOL

[MafMen]

catbois reaction was pretty gross though yeah
despite the weird townplay igor has remained uncced this entire game, the immediate jump when you get tested is whack
VOTE: catboi

No, it's not. What other reaction am I supposed to have to someone faking a guilty report on me? This is idiotic.

defensiveness? sure
biting the bait and immediately scumreading him? probably not

[MafMen]

you know what greeting also looks horrible here
he used igors bait to back up whatever nonsense doubt he had on igors claim

[MafMen]

theres a 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% chance igors tracker claim is fake, meta doesnt matter when hes been uncc'd for like a week
ive never ever liked when people say "when i die go after (x) person next" as that's just a bunch of disingenuous nonsense that could easily be used to manipulate town into shifting the wagon off of them and onto the accuser
instead of defending yourself youre going on the offensive against implosion, as if rather than arguing the scumread against you, youre trying to appeal to the town instead and i wouldnt say that bodes well for your alignment
that could be a meta thing but i cba to look thru your games so if you say it is ill just trust your word, theres also the fact that i dont understand/share your viewpoint on implosions reasoning so i cant really empathize there

[MafMen]

he's coasting on too-confident townreads and shallow POE

You're saying this to call me scum, but this is actually a way to describe my town playstyle that is a remarkable combination of accurate and uncharitable. Falling into too-confident townreads that I fail to get myself out of is something that happens and that I sometimes shoot myself in the foot with, but I also ride those townreads to victory sometimes (I'd like to think more often than random but like, I'm not especially good at online mafia lol)

implosion taking his foot off the gas here to randomly defend himself from an off-hand comment of catbois doesnt look that good in all fairness

[MafMen]

@implosion idk, i said that to instigate catboi because i think that he is scum and his reaction now just confirms that for me.

So, mind telling me why you thought I was scum in the first place?

I already said, it's the feeling u.u

lol

[MafMen]

theres a 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% chance igors tracker claim is fake, meta doesnt matter when hes been uncc'd for like a week

Setup Information

NewD3 (as designed by RadiantCowbells):

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

Refer to the third column, setup C2: It's entirely possible that igor is a mafia goon fakeclaiming who got lucky that the setup is the one where a tracker is not directly CC'd by another power role. Him doing the "vote me I want to see who hops on routine" seemed maybe kind of town but I find the way he's acted to be incredibly suspicious.

I encountered almost this exact scenario in a prior newbie game and had to metaphorically scream my head off just to get it through to people that it was possible the tracker was fakeclaiming. People are so, so quick to accept any PR claim and it's incredibly hard for them to even consider the possibility of one being fake.

could you potentially link the game?
fair enough though i didnt notice there was another setup with jailkeeper, my bad on that, but why would goon igor fakeclaim tracker here though? its a very high risk high reward claim thus it could be worthwhile i guess, but considering he claimed when there was hardly any pressure on him whatsoever what motive does he have? maybe theres an argument to be made that theres equal scum motivation as there is town motivation behind his claim but at that point its just unnecessary cautiousness

[MafMen]

another setup in C with jailkeeper*

[MafMen]

ive never ever liked when people say "when i die go after (x) person next" as that's just a bunch of disingenuous nonsense that could easily be used to manipulate town into shifting the wagon off of them and onto the accuser
instead of defending yourself youre going on the offensive against implosion, as if rather than arguing the scumread against you, youre trying to appeal to the town instead and i wouldnt say that bodes well for your alignment

Doing what I'm doing almost never actually shakes off pressure in my experience. Mafia players are inherently selfish egotists: everyone wants to be the hero with the right reads who solves the game, so no one cares about the reads of dead townies. I'm no different, of course, I just want to actually feel listened to at all rather than someone who gets strung up and then ignored, as has happened countless times in mafia games. I just want the assurance that implosion dies, you don't even have to trust me here and now.

You may find my response to be

unpleasant

and

off-putting

, because you disagree with how I am handling this, but that is irrelevant to my alignment, the goal is to determine whether I am reacting in a way that is

genuine

. And I'm quite certain that going ballistic in response to a push is antithetical to survival but is really the only option I have when I think someone is pushing me in a scummy way.


The thing is, I

am

defending myself here, but implosion's case on me is terrible and is so insubstantial that there's very little to respond to, so of course I go on the attack, because I believe he's pushing me for scum motivated reasons. What points of his do you believe I haven't addressed?

im not saying there are any points of his you missed i just dislike (the self-admitted) omgus, feels unnatural but i might have a skewed view on how town would defend themselves
sure mafia players are egotists but this is a game with impressionable newbies where you have more freedom to fake posts but the frustration does seem genuine i suppose

UNVOTE:
to clarify im not doing this because i no longer scumread you or because im agreeing with you but solely to give you room to breath, youre still sus asf in my eyes
pedit: so you arent pushing to say igor is mafia but youre just telling us to keep an open mind? thats fine then i guess, that was my own misinterpretation

[MafMen]

also those arent "slightly different circumstances," a guaranteed jailkeeper leaves a lot of room to fakeclaim rather than doing what scum!igor could do but nevertheless i get it

[MafMen]

changed my mind that unvote is now also me doubting myself
the progression between the linked game and now does seem like a mafia player who got ptsd over a very smart wolf pllay

[MafMen]

i could easily latch on to my past vote on val but i feel that wouldnt be putting enough effort in

[MafMen]

keep in mind just because i say im doubting myself doesnt mean ive dropped it entirely
im gonna have to do another read through on this game but thats for another day because its late asf and im sleepy

[MafMen]

implosion we arent really going to risk testing greeting on that though are we?

[MafMen]

And correct me if I'm wrong, since multiple people have said this, didn't Igor say that he lied, so then it's not a contradiction?

Of course, you can make three different statements and then say that you lied, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that at least one of the statements is true.

so in this fantasy world where igor HAS to be fakeclaiming tracker, why is there no cc's? or are you just going to parrot what catboi said about it being the goon setup? even though i guarantee that wasnt why you suspected igors claim before

[MafMen]

yeah in all honesty i wouldnt be surprised if scum!greeting pushes igor here so they can spend their nk on better prospects
ill brb in a couple hours or so im gonna read through the game again like i promised

implosion we arent really going to risk testing greeting on that though are we?

The point is more that if Greeting is scum, probably he thought there was a significant chance that we *would* back when he made the comment.

no? it could very clearly be a bluff as greeting was slowly gaining traction, theres no world we actually test whether or not greeting is lying scum or town willing to throw the game

[MafMen]

i lied i do not have enough energy to do an analysis on every player rn
thatll come sometime in the future

[MafMen]

sorry for not posting i completely forgot about this game lol
ill work on a pbpa of everyone so i keep a foothold in this game

[MafMen]

I'd still like greeting to explain their catboi read as well as talk more about igor. He's been favorable towards them all game and only explained, once, that they think they're acting within meta from a previous town game they were in together. Is it really that strong of a read on just that basis??

When it comes to catboi, I must admit I wasn’t very interested in them from the very start of the game. My assumption was that, knowing them from N2081, I will figure out if something is wrong eventually. I cannot say that he’s a full townread in my eyes, but he’s in the lower half of my to eliminate list for sure.

My reasoning may come off as simplistic here and it kinda is. But to be fair, I never felt the need to go in deeper.

1. Getting emotional in mafia games happens all the time. I used to look down on this, but to be fair, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s just human nature. It is a sign of frustration and a pretty natural response to being wrongly accused. In my experience as a mafia player I’ve virtually never seen a scum do that. And you would need to be very convincing to fake it well. Catboi did visibly get frustrated and annoyed at the game, as evidenced in 306, 429 (I did the exact same thing, and also not willingly) and the posts that followed from then towards what was so far the peak of his wagon. Note borderline abusive posts like 488 lol. I’ve wanted to write posts like that, but held back - looks like catboi has slightly less self-control.

1a. Spat with implosion - similar to what I had with Val. This just doesn’t really feel like a mafia thing to do. Scum getting in spats with townies - almost always discussed in games, almost never happens in reality.

2. Their analyses are unusually deep for a scum. Reading mine was admittedly quite interesting. They actually took the effort to audit all my posts in this forum. That’s a quite desperate thing to do to get a read on someone, and scums don’t really have the reason to do that. I’ve intentionally made myself quite an easy target to eliminate and yet instead of saying „screw that, he’s annoying”, let’s go for it, catboi goes out of their way to test me to the best of their possibilities.

3. Thinking out loud - another towntell. Scums want to seem consistent to avoid getting called out on it. Some townies avoid it as well in order to not draw too much attention to themselves. In my experience, I have only had very experienced scums doing that thing. Catboi has been longer on this site than I’ve played mafia overall, so I imagine that they’d have the ability to pull this off, but in combination with 1, 1a and 2, it doesn’t ring any alarm bells in my mind.

There are, however, some things which concern me. I felt like there happened a spike in his activity when his wagon built up. Getting too defensive while being VT (they hardclaimed it) without any explanation seems odd. I find the ability to take risks with one’s own life as the peak of VT potential and I would expect an experienced player to know and understand that.

Nonetheless, we have a lying „newbie” and a polarising despot in the game which definitely managed to pick my attention and this is the direction that I’m facing.

lots of fluff only to say catboi is emotional and makes deep posts lol

[MafMen]

yknow what i cba to catchup so if i have anything to say about certain posts itll be in the pbpa wall

[MafMen]

someone end my suffering
i have no idea how you serious players do this

[MafMen]

Spoiler: big wall

pseudoAristotle/StrangeMatter:

17 22
plus townie points, seems genuine enough and looks like a townie who didnt know wtf they were doing and thought that was genuinely what they should do. scum acting is always an option but typically in newbie games its safe to read these kinds of posts as townie

32 54
the goofy behavior here plus their actual reasoning behind it (only scum should know who scum was at that point) is pretty green, shows a lot of the thought process that went into it

55
probably one of, if not the towniest vote on my past wagon, they didnt sheep thynhith and had their own unique reasoning behind it which i think towntells them pretty heavily not to mention the carefulness in 94 is also townie

onto strange. a side note on their overall behavior is that the crux of their content seems to be them trying to steer town onto the right track and they seem genuinely frustrated at some points. youll see it later in this post, but im flip flopping on how i should read it as it could just be scum taking advantage of easy content however on the other hand it's a lot more rewarding for mafia to let town implode rather than using the easy content farm as we only have 3 eliminations, not to mention them consistently behaving this way being townie as well

374
speaking like greeting has to be town with val in this situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth as if strange knows theyre both town here and uses advising them as easy content not to mention they took a very neutral stance on the potential alignment of both of them in 385 which i find strange, however i dont think this is enough to snuff my prior townread on them, just something to keep an eye on in the future maybe

400
i really like the tone here, thats all, just seems genuine and i like the progression

419
actively trying to prevent not so useful discussion, a good look

626 feels kind of rough with the weird shade, sussing implosion is perfectly normal but the problem i have with their post is when they end it with "its gut and completely unfounded," it makes the entire section of that post feel redundant and unnecessary thus coming across faked to me

672 its the subtle things in this post that matter, the statement "if i think they are town" implies stranges reads are very much malleable and up to change, it seems they subconsciously said this too which makes this come across as all the more genuine

707 big mindmeld, which gives me the inclinations to just gutread this post as town
----------------------------------------------

Val89:

132 143 150 156
looking through this argument again with a more critical eye makes me like this a lot less
val comes out swinging from replacing an inactive slot (as if he had to compensate for his old slots inactivity), and takes a very holier-than-thou approach towards combatting me and greeting in his argument as if he was the antithesis of town play. a personal tell of mine that i use is that unfounded arrogance is more than likely a wolf, as it inflates the players argument and portrays the illusion that they're more confident in their argument than they are in reality, in general this just doesnt look good

as a side note i find it incredibly strange they just sort of stop focusing on their greeting sus and just shift onto other players

i attempted at many occasions (161, 261, 281, 288, 301) to reach across the aisle and convey my opinions in a potentially better way but it took a while for them to actually meet me in the middle and discuss this normally which makes me believe their goal was not solving but chaos

157
disagreements not allowed

i mentioned this at the beginning of the day but 221 looked like val was just setting himself up for failure, thynhith flips town and then he can absolve himself of all sin and guilt by acting like it was an accident and then immediately pushing me. later on down the line he still scumreads me but puts me on the backburner

220 232
when other people start weighing in on val's motive to do what he did as town or scum, i believe his reactions to them are townie
his habit to attack those who disagree with him on his greeting read portrays himself to be an arrogant townie rather than scum, conflicting with what i said earlier
nevertheless i like the tone and attitude

236
even though this posts goal was to call out greetings analysis on inactivity for being wrong it feels a bit in-your-face, "you think that guy is scum? yeah? well what about

these

guys?"

298 314
while these posts sort of annoy me for how condescending they are LOL i think it looks townie, for someone i said to have looked like he was pursuing this argument with the goal of chaos in mind, the frustration looks especially genuine

319
this is when val starts to have a genuine mindset towards solving, while i dont have a read to gleam out this post in specific i think its worth noting that prior to this he was generally combative and his reads on all players seemed centered on the greeting/me/him fiasco

546
(off topic) unlike you ive learned from the advice of my betters not to treat my reads like they are absolute fact, at the time i was thinking that if catboi could actually be town these votes are doing more harm than good, and i didnt want to give scum!catboi too much freedom so i clarified i still scumread him

557 564
mafia when they see a town member imploding generally want to stir the fire rather than solve them, this is what val is doing by making these concise posts to incite catboi, he isnt putting an effort in to actually solve catboi and he looks pretty opportunistic here
----------------------------------------------

frogsfrogs:

frog is a bit of a tough nut to crack, many of their posts are hard to gleam something alignment indicative out of so at times i almost force something ai out of them. some people would argue that it makes them scummy but im just gonna take it at face value and call it like it is, nai. their day 1 as a whole is pretty awful but i think they picked it up a lot today. im not the type of player to omgus but their scumread on me just seems forced, they keep shoehorning in the fact that they scumread me and yet they exert no effort into pushing me which is pretty whack

62
the general opinion at the time was that me calling greeting/pseudo/igor town was wolfy however frogs took a more unique approach towards the subject, agreeing that the pseudo/igor interaction could be interpreted as AI but agreed that what i said on greeting is questionable and premature
the takeaway i have here is that frogs wasnt afraid to stick their neck out and go against the town with what they believed. its a pretty brave stance in my opinion for newb scum to have, of course theres a world where scum!frogs sees me as a bad SE and easy pocket attempt but their stance on me has progressed into a more negative read so i doubt that's it

106 is a bunch of fluff to make it

seem

like they're explaining their igor vote but nothing there really justifies their stance on him and it makes this post come across weird, the follow up in 154 is okay i guess but it doesnt clear away any of the sketchy shit that could be drawn from the earlier post which still leaves a bad taste in my mouth

I don't know how to comment on this argument,

nor should I

, but I think I'm reading both Val and Greeting as very town from it.

bolded makes me think guttown, admittedly a lot of the nonsense that me/val/greeting went through was something that shouldnt be enlarged more than it already had been, and directly avoiding commenting on it but still giving the reads they got from it is townie

359
another player that looks like they were almost expecting a mislim even though they were on of the main supporters of thyns wagon, as if they were setting themselves up to easily hunt in the ones who were on his wagon, could be my own misinterpretation though

403 and 405 look very genuine, them criticizing greeting for borderline pr hunting seems to be coming from a townies perspective and i like the attitude

421
ill see whether or not they do so later on in their iso but id really love a more in-depth readslist from them here as i feel itd do wonders to help sort them, as a side note there is nothing wrong with the aforementioned post as they gave implosion the 'general overview' that they asked for.

looking at the progression between 424 and 444, it seems theyre genuinely confused and frustrated over how igors claim has completely spiraled the towns discussion, avoiding getting their hands dirty and making premature reads (looking at you catboi) before the whole igor nonsense finished is a townie mindset

458
id argue that in a newbie game this could be seen as a derpclear, scum!frogs knows that an alive igor is likely roleblocked no matter what, unless the hypothetical jailkeeper roleblocks mafia and i think this towntells them to some degree

492
scum here would try and rile up catboi further and have him dig a deeper hole, frogs does the opposite of that and genuinely sits down with him to try and rationalize what hes saying

578
weird e-1 shenanigans, blegh

630
response to catboi looks decent, nothing incredible but still decent
find it a bit weird to actively defend yourself (to this extent) to the one you sus but w/e
----------------------------------------------

Greeting:

65
meh reaction
gives the attitude of "hey guys look im suspecting this just like you are, im townie right? haha"

96
the beginning of their 2 day long push on igor is absolutely horrid, they lock igor as scum and as you can see on their section for me they even sort players based on that read
all around their push on igor is bizarre and i think he put it best himself
"I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence."

119
looks very bad considering he still tunnels igor

120 123 127
in hindsight this looks like iioa (information instead of analysis), which is when mafia will make random posts about mechanics in order to look like theyre doing something because they struggle with faking reads, and the fact that val pushed this for its apparent antitownieness rather than this still doesnt sit right with me

204
i said it earlier but this just looks like a bluff to keep pressure from building on himself and it seemingly worked, considering people started townreading greeting mainly after this to my recollection.
in no way would we ever test him and he knew this

234
i might be getting myself wrapped up in confbias but the way this appears to me is greeting trying to dial down the theatre with val and look for a reason to agree with him

399 416 430 434
greeting, like val, seemingly forgot he ever pushed and scumread val and officially got started on his nonsensical igorsprite push
i dont know if ive said it before but its as if igor was meant to die at night and was saved, so scum!greeting uses the opportunity that arose from igor digging himself a hole to try and get a lucky igor elimination
i dont buy the whole townie stubborn tunneling bs either, and i think thats just a ruse
remember, "I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence."

597
still shoving this belief that he absolutely would have hammered there down our throats like its a confirmed fact

616
after looking through his iso i realize greeting sort of shifted bases here. at first he, not catboi, was the one who brought up the fact that there are setups where a tracker fakeclaim could be "confirmed," yet here he completely forgot that line of thought and went with some nonsense about pr listening to what he said and not ccing

701

lots of fluff only to say catboi is emotional and makes deep posts lol

----------------------------------------------

catboi:

no
literally no
----------------------------------------------

implosion:

tl;dr on early day 1 implosion is he takes a sort of third party stance on a lot of this
69 75 130
i think this portrays a real solving intent and it definitely looks green to me, this read sort of tanks a

little

when their reads 131 are a little mediocre but the point still stands

181
implosion has consistently made his thought process clear and i like that about his posts

post 182 sort of narrows down potential targets for scum!implosion and it would make it really hard for him to create another scumread in the future when he nonchalantly clears multiple players like this and since he hasn't reneged on these very much it makes me think this is townie

335 336 344
eod seemed very fixated on thyn but never committed to the wagon which looks really fuckin weird as if he saw the wagon was going bad

the progression in 438, 439, and 465 looks very artificial.

argument with catboi

this seems like tvt from both sides, while it was rough at times they both seemed like they were genuinely trying to work out how the other thought.
----------------------------------------------

igorsprite:

im gonna be lazy and not make igor analysis by saying i trust the uncc'ed tracker claim, sue me

i used to quote the posts when i made these on other sites and halfway in i realized i could just use

Code: Select all

[post][/post]

to not clutter as much looool

(StrangeMatter, igorsprite)
(frogsfrogs)
(implosion)
(Val89)
(Greeting)

not currently sorted:
(catboi)

hot take, greeting v val was svs
VOTE: Greeting

whats that? i did a pbpa on every player except catboi? he has 170 posts and i stayed up until 6 am to do this, give me a break
ill do him later, i am mentally drained
good morning and good night

[MafMen]

sorry sorry
been busy

[MafMen]

ill get to catchup in a min

[MafMen]

@catboi

idk what to tell you about greeting other than i just dont agree
the meta read is a little too surface level to be convincing, i believe his self vote nonsense to be a bluff, and his igor tunnel is wolfy and their unvote in 764 doesnt do much good for how i view it either
i suppose the other stuff you mentioned is townie but the bad just outweighs the good here

[MafMen]

Honestly just haven't been able to work up the motivation to read the large amount of text that i feel like I need to in order to properly read frogs at this point.

Val, I think I'm willing to vote for now.

(Also igor I appreciate that you're working with people in this way given how you were playing very opaquely earlier)

I imagine MafMen/Greeting may also be willing to compromise there.

VOTE: Val

734 makes me think back and wonder if Val has changed his mind about a major stance this entire game. It feels like he just said early on "i'm gonna townread implo and frogs" and is just never going to re-evaluate any reads. I feel like this game is really hard and his arc just doesn't lend credence to him thinking critically about people's alignments at this point.

i still much prefer my greeting vote as im much more confident in that read than my read on val, but if my stubbornness results in a nolim here then i guess i can switch wagons

[MafMen]

catboi youve had a habit today of targeting literally anyone who enters your crosshairs
i can count 4 players youve had an aggressive push against today

[MafMen]

@frogsfrogs if you are town, vote for val


VOTE: frogsfrogs

Oh my god what,

no.

I'm seeing Val doing this as a way to force opinions of greeting (see who thinks this self vote is still scummy vs thinking greeting self hammer threat town & why) and see if there's a hammer after his two scum reads are already voting him. He's town. He doesn't do this right now, making himself

actually

in danger of a lim, unlike greeting, if he's about to flip red and I think this kind of extreme play is in line with who he's been so far!!

VOTE: Greeting
It's two of greeting / catboi / mafmen, and this train makes it look a lot like the first two :I

have you explained any of this or is this just piggybacking off of val

[MafMen]

I'm seeing Val doing this as a way to force opinions of greeting (see who thinks this self vote is still scummy vs thinking greeting self hammer threat town & why) and see if there's a hammer after his two scum reads are already voting him. He's town. He doesn't do this right now, making himself actually in danger of a lim, unlike greeting, if he's about to flip red and I think this kind of extreme play is in line with who he's been so far!!

VOTE: Greeting
It's two of greeting / catboi / mafmen, and this train makes it look a lot like the first two :I

I do how you're writing this as an explanation

for

Val, like you're his lawyer or something.

as the resident VI white knight i take offense to this lolol

[MafMen]

Before you go, vote me.

This post does give a bit of the fear


But, like, hypothetically, in a world where you are town here


You have made it essentially impossible for me to find you as town with your tunneling and repeated bad faith arguments



So let's try a thought exercise here: assume that I am town and am tunneling you incorrectly. What should I have been doing differently?

meh post

[MafMen]

I know this is not going to be at all convincing but I absolutely do not pause for an attempted come to jesus/hand of grace moment here as scum after I've aggressively bullied my way into the elim I want


I am leaving now and will not be able to see any replies until later but I really do want an answer

this is why i thought it was meh thanks for explaining it for me lol
still think its meh tho even if u explained it

[MafMen]

it's been a very difficult day

well hey if youre town then theres a good chance atleast one of those four is a wolf or something

[MafMen]

frogsfrogs is a townlean so its gonna have to take a lot of convincing for me to vote them over two whole scumreads i have

[MafMen]

i suppose im just generally distrustful of selfvote nonsense because vals bs doesnt look real to me either
i just genuinely dont see the motive for town to self vote in any perdicament, to self vote is blatant intimidation and town should not need to do those things

[MafMen]

I feel like I'm officially on another planet now with regard to how people perceive the game

with how quickly your perceptions change yeah probably

[MafMen]

scum!you just as easily steers it onto town!frogs and still gets towncred because it looked like you were really working to solve
but this is arguing for no reason since i dont even scumread you in the first place haha

[MafMen]

for mafia the game gets a lot harder if they die here, because of PRs and the amount of people that would be cleared on a flip. town can still conceivably win no matter what if they get eliminated

I offered him a way out and he basically went, "no, screw you, I want to die"

And either he's way, way crazier than I'd ever imagine as scum

or he's just town

in all honesty bro this is weak

[MafMen]

i lean more to it being scum flail than anything else

[MafMen]

whos scum!frogs buddy then if you had to wager a guess?

[MafMen]

so lets make that 5 different wagons you participated on

[MafMen]

In order from the biggest townlean (up) to the biggest scumlean (down). Consider this also to be the list of whom I will be the most or least willing to vote out at this point of the game. I can settle to vote out the moderate scumleans and scumleans if my current choice (that is Val89) doesn't have a majority to be eliminated.

Townlean

Spoiler:

catboi

- Already spoke of them in 701. Has made an extraordinarily big (and good) effort to solve the game. I didn't notice much that would really make me interested in this slot. If catboi is scum then I congratulate him, because he successfully convinced me otherwise.

igorsprite

- Although his play is, in my opinion, really bad, unfortunately it would appear that he has some sort of town PR role. If it wasn't for that, I'd be voting them out right now.

Moderate townlean

Spoiler:

implosion

- Admittedly, this isn't a very strong read, but his actions in this game seem generally quite towny. His assessment of actions of other players, including myself (in posts such as 99, 130, Something which also tells me that implosion isn't scum is the way in he tried to mediate between me and Val89, whom, I believe, at the time he considered town. His interactions with catboi scream town speaking with town (as in 511).

Looking back in retrospect, I don't like his newer posts - most notably 775 and for now that is the major reason why implosion isn't a full townread. While this carefulness makes more sense when it's early Day Phase, we are slowly nearing towards the end - and town is very clearly and seems to be unwilling to go in a common direction. This post could be interpreted as being overly careful about looking bad if Val89 flips town.

While this is partly explained by them in 845 - I have one major remark implosion - there is less than 24h left and Val89 is, at the moment, the only viable option for elimination with three votes on that slot. So if you want to make a case for someone then you'd better hurry up.

Neutral

Spoiler:

MafMen

- I don't know what to make of them, really. The content of their posts seems genuine. The wording and the frequency remind me of another user - GrandpaMo, whom I know from N2078. GrandpaMo was a scum in that game and he managed to win it. That doesn't really let me move MafMen into my townreads. It's extremely subjective, but opinions are subjective by definition.

Their reads, from 730, are quite simplistic.

He seems to have conviction in whatever he's doing at the moment, but I must admit that his reasoning for voting me, in 730, is really weak (and I'm not saying this out of spite, as Val89 had voted me before and made much more valid points!) and my wagon seems a comfy place to stay at when I'm not in danger of being eliminated. I hope he either manages to put me at E-1 (with myself voting as promised) or keeps his promise from 861, otherwise this is slowly going into a moderate scumlean.

Moderate scumlean

Spoiler:

(two players in this category are of equal suspicion to me)

StrangeMatter

- Ever since entering the game they seem to be comfortably sitting on the fence, questioning and judging around, but without going into any concrete direction. Sure, it's okay if one doesn't like my self-hammer play (374, 385) I respect that. Sure, it's okay if one thinks I'm harming town (673). It feels to me like commenting on whatever I'm doing at the moment and questioning me is an easy way to get towncred without actually doing anything themselves. It is notable to me that they haven't really shared any strong read on anyone or even voted for anyone.

While StrangeMatter isn't exactly my first choice for an elimination vote, I can join that wagon.

frogsfrogs

- I think he could be playing Robin to Val's Batman in the scum team. I totally see them working together and opting for a cooperation tactic. Of course, my scum read on them is weaker and dependent on Val flipping scum, but I wouldn't be opposed to voting them out today either. I actually agree with catboi's assessment of them in 379.

Frogs actively participates a bit more in the game than StrangeMatter. Nonetheless, I find his stances rather vague and uninformative. He made a basic readslist in 421, but I fail to see (maybe frogs can point me to it) how it affected his later behavior in the game and especially his later vote for catboi in 578? What exactly has changed? If you think that me and catboi are aligned then why didn't you vote for me instead?

In post 796 you spoke of scum being amongst the three of me, catboi and MafMen - which is an opinion you repeated from Val89 (786). Why?

Furthermore, why are you voting for Val89 if you don't think he's scum? I understand that you are voting for them because they asked you to do so (824), but what makes you trust them so much?

Scumlean

Spoiler:

Val89

- explained in 881.

im just gonna straight up give you a big fuck you for minimizing hours of my fucking effort by labeling my reads “simple”
in what way are they “simple”

[MafMen]

Hm, StrangeMatter’s reaction was too nervous for my liking.

Anyone willing to vote them out today?

nervous? in what way

[MafMen]

Ok, I think Strange is totally right about greeting seeming to parrot other people's reads of them,,, I think greeting's explanation for implosion is really weak and weird, even, too. You think that implosion is slightly less townie for taking action to back off on Val's train after he selfvoted? Scum would totally take advantage of the probably anti-town play there. It's like you would have preferred Val get quick hammered.

also are you seriously using another players meta to read me

[MafMen]

woops dont know why that was quoted the post was directed at greeting

[MafMen]

frogs are you able to make an opinion of your own
i have a townlean on you and i dont really want that to drop

[MafMen]

Greeting, look at MafMen trying to say you/Val was scum theater and tell me if you think that's a theory a townie really has?

do not treat that as the main point of my reads
i found them both individually scummy and so i looked for potentially fake interactions? is it confbias to actively look for something to support my theory? yes, and im conscious of this which is why im more hesitant to vote val

in all fairness greetings recent posts lead me to believe im an absolute clown but whatever

[MafMen]

if it was scummy i would have said it was
just i can tell why everyone who catboi set his sights on became frustrated

[MafMen]

frogs are you able to make an opinion of your own
i have a townlean on you and i dont really want that to drop

What do you mean by "i don't really want that to drop?" Like, you don't want frogs to be scum?

im arrogant and dont like being wrong LOL

[MafMen]

well i do now lol

anyway if yall wanna lim me go ahead i really dont care
and dont try and take anything ai out of this either as i would lose my wim here as either town or scum
im just tired

[MafMen]

ok so maybe i was wrong on frogs lol
anyway

[MafMen]

bro just end my suffering oh my god

[MafMen]

???????????/
now you agree with him?!?!?!!

[MafMen]

[MafMen]

in case catboi changes his mind for the 749th time and decides im the lim again heres my final reads, i will be asleep during eod
town
- strange
- igor
- catboi

uh idk
- val
- implosion
- frogs

mafia
- greeting

[MafMen]

town is run by the high posters lol

[MafMen]

i dont see how you cant just ignore val either
youre confident hes town right? then why PL him?
you were able to garner enough players on a wagon without his commitment so i dont see why you get paranoid

[MafMen]

thats presuming youre not confident in JK

[MafMen]

youre giving me a migraine

[MafMen]

bye now

[MafMen]

im fine where im parked and like i said ill be asleep the entire eod

[MafMen]

i regret absolutely nothing about that lim and would probably do it 1000 times over because of how wolfy greeting was
----------------
if one of {val, frogs, implosion} was jailed i think its safe to say theyre a wolf
if we look at it from the other angle, it would make no sense for any of these three players to be targeted as the mafia night kill

[MafMen]

i am however greatly annoyed that greeting self hammers with (i think) 7 hours left on the clock
if he genuinely had his head in the game he wouldve pushed a cfd until the last second

[MafMen]

if one of {val, frogs, implosion} was jailed i think its safe to say theyre a wolf
if we look at it from the other angle, it would make no sense for any of these three players to be targeted as the mafia night kill

i guess theres a world where mafia just... doesnt kill? to frame one of them or some shit

[MafMen]

im probably willing to vote any of the three aforementioned players

[MafMen]

i believe i was in that pool

[MafMen]

If we eliminate the goon today then we gain 2 clears.

how?

[MafMen]

Then when I actually did what I said I would he was like oh, shit and pulled out from the game.

bro i literally had barely any internet access for like 5 days what do you want from me
of course i gotta replace out :'(

anyways ggs, im absolutely god awful with nightplay as mafia so i ended up messing up alot but i had fun
it was a really fun game and a good hosting job as always micc

[MafMen]

bit peeved about the replacement speculation being that i got scared shitless at my so called 'doomed slot' so i ran but whatever thats just my own nonsense pride about my scum game
greeting your wagon barely implicated me man lol