Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[StrangeMatter]

Hey hey.

So I looked through the game and, Greeting you really shouldn't hammer yourself just to eliminate Val89. If you ask me, it's putting the absolute worst risk imaginable Day 1 with post #204. Ok so if theoretically both of you flip town and everyone follows that, you would've given scum two different attempts at catching PR, and puts us in MELO.

It might not be something scum does (though I have almost no evidence of scum actually doing that I wouldn't think people wouldn't and couldn't) but it's absolutely anti-town to do that if you ask me.

[StrangeMatter]

Hey hey.

So I looked through the game and, Greeting you really shouldn't hammer yourself just to eliminate Val89. If you ask me, it's putting the absolute worst risk imaginable Day 1 with post #204. Ok so if theoretically both of you flip town and everyone follows that, you would've given scum two different attempts at catching PR, and puts us in ELO (4 players eliminated leaves the game at a 2v3, not MELO (Miselimination and Lose, that's what I'm assuming the acronym means)).

It might not be something scum does (though I have almost no evidence of scum actually doing that I wouldn't think people wouldn't and couldn't) but it's absolutely anti-town to do that if you ask me.

EBWOP

[StrangeMatter]

One last things:

@igorsprite:

if you got a report, you should say so

but should not out the contents of the report

. the mafia already know whether or not there is a roleblocker/jailkeeper in the setup, so outing this info can only benefit town.

i didn't use my role last night because i thought that i was already dead

Whyyyyyyyyyy

Pro tip even if you know you're probably going to die please use your action.

[StrangeMatter]

Well...I'm not sure if these even count but here's what I feel like on certain people so far.

Val89 - Feels kind of similar to how I've played with him in another game, very strong about how they feel about something. At this moment though I feel more like it's just his general playstyle since I haven't seen his scum gameplay to comment on this further. He is left at null so far.

Greeting - Already commented on it but that self vote is anti-town to me, but is a very newbie town (I'm also a newbie so take that with a grain of salt) type of play. However, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when he says "Why would I do that as scum?", which kind of leaves a bad feeling since last time someone said that they were scum, deepwolfing (I think), and were using that as a reason to be called town there. However, I feel like taking that with a grain of salt since Roden was playing very well as scum and has experience so I'll leave them at leaning newb town.

[StrangeMatter]

Greeting talking and feeling like they were intending to self vote I mean.

[StrangeMatter]

igor

technically

you werent wrong in this situation but its always good to use your action just in case

I mean it's not as bad but you should almost always use your ability when you can use it as town PR.

[StrangeMatter]

Way too many people have not talked at the start of Day 2, can we please change that?

[StrangeMatter]

No one died. This means: we have a Doctor who saved the nightkill or we have a Jailkeeper who targeted either the nightkill or someone who might have tried to kill.

Or...

someone

is lying.

I honestly don’t understand why no one is discussing this. What a weird game.

Please, stop trying to drag my townlean into the ground.

[StrangeMatter]

No one died. This means: we have a Doctor who saved the nightkill or we have a Jailkeeper who targeted either the nightkill or someone who might have tried to kill.

Or...

someone

is lying.

I honestly don’t understand why no one is discussing this. What a weird game.

Please, stop trying to drag my townlean into the ground.

Is this just because you think he could be rolefishing?

Not rolefishing, but the part bolded just feels entirely like shading Igor, an unCCed claim remind you.

[StrangeMatter]

Not rolefishing, but the part bolded just feels entirely like shading Igor, an unCCed claim remind you.

What does scum get out of shading igor, an unCCed claim remind you?

Do you think scum would think they could get a lim on igor?

I know this is technically not very relevant but it could be used to sow doubt into the validity of a role for later, especially when someone's done that, but it was a Upick (You get to choose your flavor if I remember right), and roles are only assigned by the moderator and we don't get to know some or all of the setup in those.

[StrangeMatter]

Let's just...stop talking about PRs please and get actual reads in.

[StrangeMatter]

I entirely hate the direction of where this game is. I don't disagree with the idea of Eliminate All Liars, but I feel like it's the type of mantra (according to the wiki at least) that gets easily abused by scum. Also, I feel like this isn't abnormal that as scum, catboi could be completely lying about not doing anything as well to cover for themselves.

[StrangeMatter]

Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.

[StrangeMatter]

@catboi, what's your opinion of Greeting's slot right now?

[StrangeMatter]

And while I'm here before I go to sleep, I might ask the same to @Implosion

[StrangeMatter]

At this point, catboi you're confirmation biasing yourself (or that's what it seems like you're doing) into believing Implosion is scum.

[StrangeMatter]

It might not be an exact science, but scum can certainly glean some clues, and those are clues they otherwise would not have if we just SHUT OUR DAMN MOUTHS.

The problem I have with you both, and it only increases the more you try and drive us down this rabbit hole and try and confuse what is a very clear cut issue, is that by openly discussing what you think should happen if it happens to be a JK, or if it happens to be a Doc, or a FN, is you run the risk of inducing other slots to ALSO do so

It's quite simple. People listen to you, and start running thier mouths, scum get info they wouldn't otherwise have and get to make a judgment call on who is WIFOMing and who isn't. They listen to me, they don't.

True, you "using logic" to "figure out the gamestate" (alongside the comments regaridng igors claim), and more importantly, opening the door for others to do so is a big part of it,

I am refering to Newbie 2073, which catboi also played in. There, someone fake-claimed Mason (in fact a TOWN made that fake claim, if you can beleive that), and just after I left the thread, 4 slots (including scum) managed to talk themselves out of the true PR pool by commenting on that claim and speculating on what it meant for the setup, even after I had warned them against it; and sure enough, one of our true PRs was quickly NKd from the remaining slots that night.

I have no desire to see that, or anything remotely like it, repeated.

If you "you guys", you mean "greeting", it's because he is hoping people will comment and make clear they beleive your claim, and thus immeadately ruling themselves out as that one town-aligned player that can immediately tell a tracker claim is fake, in 7 out of 9 combinations.

You just so happened to miss all of those posts while going through my ISO looking for 282?

I haven't even looked through the entire thing myself, but I think my point is sufficiently made already.

People don't say "I think Val is town", twice, while continuing to shade that town player unless you need other slots to wonder about the rest of said players reads after you flip red.

In other words, this lends further evidence to us looking at a catboi + greeting/mafmen scum team.

I have to step away again, but I'll go on record and say I have no problem with a catboi lim happening while I am away. This game is pretty much solved to my mind.

As much as I like the idea behind this being a solve (and feels like protown move), I want to take this with a grain of salt especially with your slot. You said something similar to this last time we played where you thought I was scum (was Town), and the game wasn’t over.

[StrangeMatter]

At this point, catboi you're confirmation biasing yourself (or that's what it seems like you're doing) into believing Implosion is scum.

Maybe. Wouldn't be the first time. But I have to make a judgment call on whether the people pushing me are scum or town.

Noooo never say judgement call! You invoke

his

ability of being completely wrong!!!

[StrangeMatter]

At this point, catboi you're confirmation biasing yourself (or that's what it seems like you're doing) into believing Implosion is scum.

Maybe. Wouldn't be the first time. But I have to make a judgment call on whether the people pushing me are scum or town.

Noooo never say judgement call! You invoke

his

ability of being completely wrong!!!

I don't understand what you mean by this.

Inside joke.

[StrangeMatter]

Absolutely not let’s not put Catboi at E-1.

[StrangeMatter]

Greeting, can you please respond to my question to #468, please?

(Also on a side note I still haven't been able to figure out how to link to my other posts yet, I get how it works though)

[StrangeMatter]

Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.

They made a few statements which contradict one another. Expanding on what I said in 582, you don’t sound very believable if you change your version multiple times. It occurs to me that the lies were brushed off by catboi as newbie nonsense, but I don’t share that view. I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence.

Okay, so then according to that logic couldn't your self vote also fall under "It's scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence"?

[StrangeMatter]

And correct me if I'm wrong, since multiple people have said this, didn't Igor say that he lied, so then it's not a contradiction?

As for what you've said catboi, I'd have preferred not to talk much about PRs lest we help mafia (I've personally as scum used things like this to catch PRs before), and made reads. Of course that's not where the game went, and I don't think I can even move it away anymore so here we are, and I thought I might as well join in and get reads that way.

[StrangeMatter]

And correct me if I'm wrong, since multiple people have said this, didn't Igor say that he lied, so then it's not a contradiction?

As for what you've said catboi, I'd have preferred not to talk much about PRs lest we help mafia (I've personally as scum used things like this to catch PRs before), and made reads. Of course that's not where the game went, and I don't think I can even move it away anymore so here we are, and I thought I might as well join in and get reads that way.

I mean, well, I'm not talking about PRs anymore but it was sort of unavoidable given that I was forced to claim. But I am trying to make reads now, as are most people. Do you have thoughts right now? I assume you not wanting me at E-1 means you think I'm town, although that might be presumptive on my part.

Not exactly. I still think how you framed it early on feels like a common scum defense (as is town), I was more worried about the potential that you'd self hammer as scum, and I'm hyper paranoid of people hammering for dumb reasons.

[StrangeMatter]

Well, I could have selfhammered if I was going to, but as a rule I basically almost never selfvote as either alignment, unless I'm mechanically guiltied as scum. So you shouldn't take that as alignment-indicative.

What about my framing do you think is "a common scum defense"?

When I looked at it I felt like it went very much along the lines of this. When you have believe or know you've been inspected as scum, you lie and say they are lying themselves and push them. Of course there is the time where scum also fakes an inspect on someone (though I think this is pretty rare), and Town does a similar thing to push back against it.

[StrangeMatter]

Of course that's without Town lying, and they don't know the alignment of the person who inspected them.

[StrangeMatter]

I explain that last part horribly actually. Town doesn't lie there and doesn't know the alignment of the person who inspected them. This usually rarely comes up though.

[StrangeMatter]

Re: Greeting. At this point I think it's entirely possible that my townread on him has stemmed from confirmation bias on a couple things I was reading too strongly in to early. That said, I also do want to gut townread the self-hammer thing still; if someone threatens that and is brought to E-1 then they have to either go through with it (which ofc scum has not much reason to do) or back out of it (which looks very bad). The act of saying "well just bring me to e-1 so i can selfhammer then" has not much utility for scum to say. I think that kind of second-level "doing something explicitly negative utility for the town cred" play happens not that often.

StrangeMatter: am I right in reading that you haven't really indicated active suspicion on anyone other than possibly catboi (and even then I'm uncertain) at this point? You've given a lot of questions and commentary but I don't feel like I have a good sense of where you stand on things.

Not entirely, I'm still suspicious of Greeting right now. And I also think you are the biggest candidate for who I think could be deepwolfing but that's just gut and very unfounded.

[StrangeMatter]

Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.

They made a few statements which contradict one another. Expanding on what I said in 582, you don’t sound very believable if you change your version multiple times. It occurs to me that the lies were brushed off by catboi as newbie nonsense, but I don’t share that view. I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence.

Okay, so then according to that logic couldn't your self vote also fall under "It's scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence"?

There’s virtually no reason for me to hammer myself on Day One if I’m scum. It

could

make sense late in the game - as a way to divert the blame from the other scum member, but there is absolutely nothing a scum could gain from being voted out Day One. Val has, however, made a point that pretending to put myself at risk could be a way for me to gain towncred, since I wasn’t really in danger of getting voted out at that time. I guess that if you want to find out if I’m a man of my word, you’ll have to put me at E-1 to find out.

Obviously scum doesn't want to take the risk and be eliminated at this point, but it seems like you aren't really acknowledging what I've said, just saying that you wouldn't do it as scum is not a good argument, and I've done that before. Also, why are you trying to bluff saying you would do that? It's already been somewhat stated in another post that self voting is very anti town, and something you should never do.

[StrangeMatter]

And regarding catboi... I admit that I skimmed through the posts which built up their wagon but nothing really picked my interest. It was intense enough to make them mad, and that’s all I gathered from it. Perhaps there is some bias involved on my part, but catboi wouldn’t be my pick for an eliminating vote today.

Can you please explain more to this?

[StrangeMatter]

I have a question, Catboi what are your current thoughts on MafMen?

[StrangeMatter]

Speaking of, to everyone on the Thyn wagon, what was the reason for their elimination? I feel like nobody really went through and talked about that, and I didn't really see anything that particularly pinged me.

Also, I absolutely didn't know that.

[StrangeMatter]

Speaking of, to everyone on the Thyn wagon, what was the reason for their elimination? I feel like nobody really went through and talked about that, and I didn't really see anything that particularly pinged me.

Also, I absolutely didn't know that.

Implosion had made a point that he was casting a wide net of suspects for vague reasons, like talking about people being in a "dark triangle", and I agreed with that, his response to getting voted looked towny, I got too wrapped up in a theory about him and val shading each other but avoiding actually voting each other. I dunno, was regrettable in a lot of ways but making mistakes is part of the game.

Is there something you're looking for by asking this?

Well, it felt like it was kind of ignored, and I didn't get why it really went through in the first place, getting a better understanding of other people's thought processes from it.

[StrangeMatter]

Stolen.

[StrangeMatter]

Darnit I was trying to get the page top. I got baited into saying it too early.

There's still one thing that's bugging me about all this Greeting talk, is what is the point Greeting is even trying to do with pushing Igor? Does he still think that Igor is scum, and just isn't thinking about the risks that come with this, because I don't feel like they actually have if I think they are town.

[StrangeMatter]

That would make it more plausible to me that they are just newb town and just aren't caring about dumb mistakes and decisions at this point.

[StrangeMatter]

Can you post your current reads please, @Catboi?

[StrangeMatter]

And please do specify.

[StrangeMatter]

And please do specify.

Do you mean explain my reads? I went into a huge deep dive on Greeting not that long ago, IDK if you want me to link it again?

Well, it is the most important part of reads if you ask me (and the part I suck the most at), but there really isn't a point in explaining it again.

[StrangeMatter]

Darnit I was trying to get the page top. I got baited into saying it too early.

There's still one thing that's bugging me about all this Greeting talk, is what is the point Greeting is even trying to do with pushing Igor? Does he still think that Igor is scum, and just isn't thinking about the risks that come with this, because I don't feel like they actually have if I think they are town.

I am aware of the risks. Of course, it would be far from ideal if we vote someone who has a power role. But his carelessness fully assured me that, at best, they’re a Jester who will only serve as a distraction and essentially of no good use for town. They didn’t even use their supposed role Night One, because they thought they would be dead anyway. Or at least that’s one of their versions - not sure which one is considered to be the truth by others now.

Perhaps this can also be explained with my experience from N2081, where I actually held back town from eliminating a Jester-like player early in Day One thinking that they were, at worst, harmless. Ultimately, I was the one to hammer them and it turned out they were scum. This experience lessened my trust for players who are less invested or have an unconventional approach to playing the game.

I get that it would lessen your trust for players who are less invested, or have an unconventional approach to a game. However, it doesn't really make sense why you'd be fine with eliminating what you consider a Jester (I'm calling it wildcard though). It's weird because it feels like you know they are an UnCCed PR, yet still continue to push that slot because it's a useless slot and more likely to flip scum?

[StrangeMatter]

Seriously it feels like you're set on Igor's elimination, and making a decision that just straight up hurts town more often than it does help.

[StrangeMatter]

As much as I hate repeating myself on this, the last time someone ignored mechanics, in my Mini, (Mini 2235 - Gensokoyo) we lost because in ELO someone didn't realize that the only other town was mechanically cleared. As of right now, there are just zero reasons to make this Igor the elimination today and that's final.

[StrangeMatter]

Absolutely not let’s not put Catboi at E-1.

I think this post is the best case for Strange being maybe town. Scum would want to talk it out for a bit and then hammer, really, right?

I have almost no clue what you're even trying to say with the second part of this post. Though, I don't really have a really good read on Implosion or MafMen at this point.

[StrangeMatter]

Absolutely not let’s not put Catboi at E-1.

I think this post is the best case for Strange being maybe town. Scum would want to talk it out for a bit and then hammer, really, right?

I have almost no clue what you're even trying to say with the second part of this post. Though, I don't really have a really good read on Implosion or MafMen at this point.

You could read my analysis on MafMen in 715?

(Explaining implo would be a lot harder, it boils down to a veteran experience type of thing)

I mean okay, but with your recent string of comments, you're trying way too hard to get buddy buddy with me I think.

[StrangeMatter]

Maybe I'm just paranoid but it really doesn't give me a good vibe.

[StrangeMatter]

I.. don't know what to say then. I feel like you're trying to convince me, myself, that I'm scum here, with no one else engaging & having written like 4/5 of my last posts in response to you. :I I think my summary and my response aimed mostly at why I'm not convinced by what you're convinced by are completely appropriate when I'm reacting to your posts. I start to bring up positive arguments for him being scum at the end.
I think 430 and 582 are scummy. "Only the other PR knows what's true or not"??? Arguing that Igor's alleging mechanically impossible situations when he isn't? I think having changed his Igor read overnight is scummy, and that his weak read on you, and weak reads in general, is a bad sign at this stage. My read on him deteriorated through the end of day one as he stuck so hard to the Val argument and makes gestures like 279: "Well, if no one is convinced by each other, then the game is lost!" I actually do not think the self hammer declaration is necessarily town AI and you've even noted as meta reads that greeting hasn't gotten as upset being voted as town, previously.

Why do you think is the self hammer not necessarily Town AI?

[StrangeMatter]

I.. don't know what to say then. I feel like you're trying to convince me, myself, that I'm scum here, with no one else engaging & having written like 4/5 of my last posts in response to you. :I I think my summary and my response aimed mostly at why I'm not convinced by what you're convinced by are completely appropriate when I'm reacting to your posts. I start to bring up positive arguments for him being scum at the end.
I think 430 and 582 are scummy. "Only the other PR knows what's true or not"??? Arguing that Igor's alleging mechanically impossible situations when he isn't? I think having changed his Igor read overnight is scummy, and that his weak read on you, and weak reads in general, is a bad sign at this stage. My read on him deteriorated through the end of day one as he stuck so hard to the Val argument and makes gestures like 279: "Well, if no one is convinced by each other, then the game is lost!" I actually do not think the self hammer declaration is necessarily town AI and you've even noted as meta reads that greeting hasn't gotten as upset being voted as town, previously.

Why do you think the self hammer is not necessarily Town AI?

EBWOP

[StrangeMatter]

Darnit I was trying to get the page top. I got baited into saying it too early.

There's still one thing that's bugging me about all this Greeting talk, is what is the point Greeting is even trying to do with pushing Igor? Does he still think that Igor is scum, and just isn't thinking about the risks that come with this, because I don't feel like they actually have if I think they are town.

I am aware of the risks. Of course, it would be far from ideal if we vote someone who has a power role. But his carelessness fully assured me that, at best, they’re a Jester who will only serve as a distraction and essentially of no good use for town. They didn’t even use their supposed role Night One, because they thought they would be dead anyway. Or at least that’s one of their versions - not sure which one is considered to be the truth by others now.

Perhaps this can also be explained with my experience from N2081, where I actually held back town from eliminating a Jester-like player early in Day One thinking that they were, at worst, harmless. Ultimately, I was the one to hammer them and it turned out they were scum. This experience lessened my trust for players who are less invested or have an unconventional approach to playing the game.

I get that it would lessen your trust for players who are less invested, or have an unconventional approach to a game. However, it doesn't really make sense why you'd be fine with eliminating what you consider a Jester (I'm calling it wildcard though).

It's weird because it feels like you know they are an UnCCed PR, yet still continue to push that slot because it's a useless slot and more likely to flip scum?

I don’t understand your feeling. I’m VT, I had claimed VT before. I have no powers which would allow me to

know

if someone is scum. All I have is my own convictions.

And what I was saying was that I don’t think we would be very much at a disadvantage with igor gone, in the case that one of his claims is actually true.

I hope that this was just a misinterpretation and not an attempt to spin this into a weird direction.

Partially, but not really a misinterpretation. It is entirely a disadvantage. We have two shots to eliminate Mafia, meaning we would be at a massive disadvantage already if we lose PR, and one of our shots.

[StrangeMatter]

Stop, don't.

[StrangeMatter]

[StrangeMatter]

The whole purpose there is just intimidation to try to scare people off

he was super-confident in having the solve of me/greeting earlier but suddenly he's talking about "flushing out the partner"

he wants to scare people into not voting him by making them afraid they'll get scumread for doing so

It seems that my post 777 is not worthy of an answer by Val89. Therefore, you are right, this is an intimidation tactic.

Vote Val89, y’all.

Why is that what you gravitate to instead of asking the question again?

[StrangeMatter]

While we're here, can you give a case as to why you think Val89 is scum here?

[StrangeMatter]

Again, I hate repeating myself but this entire conversation feels like Val89 is talking exactly out of how he plays this game. It's absolutely frustrating to talk with and it just feels like they latch onto almost anything. That speaking I don't like the fact he decided to self vote, it's just...a completely bad play as town, and I don't get what they're even trying at this point, which is frustrating.

[StrangeMatter]

And if someone says, "That's a load of hogwash", another newbie game he latched onto me not knowing what the number of votes on a wagon is.

[StrangeMatter]

I am not going to hammer val now and if the day ends in no elim I don't care because we're on an even number of players, it's not going to lose an elim


Val should quit being petty and unvote himself, he can vote me again if he wants

We should absolutely not be ending in a No Elim.

[StrangeMatter]

That seals it. Greeting why are you mirroring people's reads and such?

[StrangeMatter]

Let's see.

You're saying exactly what Implosion has said about my slot, I see accounts of you right now making a read that's suspiciously similar to catboi's.

[StrangeMatter]

StrangeMatter I mostly am just confused why they're seemingly universally above null; it feels like they've played quite on the outskirts today, haven't really committed to any hard stances or... voted at all yet. If you're town then they could easily be scum coasting on a good gamestate. Or if you're scum they'd make sense as a partner.

It says something that I can look through their entire ISO, where they have tons of dialogue with you, and I actually have 0 clue what their read on you is right now or at basically any point (even their answer to my question asking about their reads specifically mentioning you doesn't answer it).

frogsfrogs I still need to do more work.

Please explain.

[StrangeMatter]

I'm sorry (if I'm pulling a Val89 here) but, there is no way you on pure randomness stumble into the exact same thing someone else has said.

[StrangeMatter]

Especially nearly word for word.

[StrangeMatter]

Go ahead and check you two. I've already shown one of the two.

[StrangeMatter]

StrangeMatter I mostly am just confused why they're seemingly universally above null; it feels like they've played quite on the outskirts today, haven't really committed to any hard stances or... voted at all yet. If you're town then they could easily be scum coasting on a good gamestate. Or if you're scum they'd make sense as a partner.

[StrangeMatter]

I will admit I was wrong on the catboi part about thinking the scumteam is frogfrogs and val89 though (I think, I reread and he said he found them individually scummy). But this is just really weird.

[StrangeMatter]

Actually I'm going to look into something. Maybe I was thinking of the wrong person since I clearly remember a Val89 and FrogFrogs scumteam being mentioned together.

[StrangeMatter]

No, I was just outright wrong on that end. It's still is extremely weird that part of it is very very close to what Implosion has said.

It really rubs me the wrong way that Greeting is suddenly advocating for everyone to focus on me and MafMen. I get that attention to a slot is almost always good, that's how you read someone, but this just comes off to me as odd and I can't exactly put my finger on it but it feels...desperate to get people to push either of our slots?

[StrangeMatter]

Why are you suggesting that all of the people in your scumlean look towards each other for a compromise...?

[StrangeMatter]

Why are you suggesting that all of the people in your scumlean look towards each other for a compromise...?

Because two of them are town and I want to hear their opinions. I also want to hear the opinions of the scums.

Why are you asking this question?

Because rereading it, that feels potentially like scum doing something opportunistic, in a way that you want town members to rip into each other.

[StrangeMatter]

I'm still going to read into them but I'm going to just put a pin in this and shut up.

[StrangeMatter]

I can probably do MafMen. I'm like, especially susceptible to confirmation bias this game for whatever reason and so me thinking his recent stuff from like a few days ago was townish combined with catboi meta-casing him as town was enough that I kind of ignored him. But under the theory that the last few days would be especially difficult for scum to effectively bluff their way through, he is a player who, well, was absent and wouldn't have had to do that.

StrangeMatter, I don't think Greeting is copying my reads, the point of reads is that if they're sensible people should be able to come to their own conclusions... and besides, the way I'm reading Greeting has little to do with Greeting's own reads.

I’m back.

So, what is the way you’re reading Greeting right now? I also don’t get how you don’t see that as a little odd it’s very similar? I get mindmelding is a real thing, but they use the exact same concept of fencesitty and that I haven’t voted (though, votes can dictate pressure but pressure isn’t always voting, and I just want to pressure people. It also doesn’t mean that someone doesn’t want to vote someone out either).

[StrangeMatter]

The way I'm reading Greeting is a combination of the selfvote and the play around it, the way/timing he was pushing igor having not that much utility for scum, and his presence today as things have been in turmoil. But honestly the selfvote is the biggest piece of it.

Okay, has your read on them changed at all?

[StrangeMatter]

Like StrangeMatter you have not laid down a vote

ever

and it's 14 hours til day end.

where do you stand on things.

You really want a vote?

VOTE: Greeting

There you go.

I'm going to post my reads (sort of read-like, I hate making reads).

[StrangeMatter]

I hate reads (and

very

done with this game), so I'm going to post who I want to be eliminated vs who I don't want to be eliminated. Everyone who is not on this list I may or may not have been able to understand or read into enough.

Who I want to be eliminated:

Implosion
Greeting

Who I don't want eliminated:

Me

Val89
catboi

Also people I don't quite trust yet for a particular reason but maybe I'm just paranoid:
catboi
frogfrogs

Maximum effort.

[StrangeMatter]

It worked out I guess. Still, probably a mistake to end up with them being the same standard as most players but it worked out.

[StrangeMatter]

It worked out I guess. Still, probably a mistake to end up with them being the same standard as most players but it worked out.

Also, I have to ask: is this you

not

claiming jailkeeper? Because if so we really need to talk.

Well, I am not the jailkeeper that's for sure. The only reason I said nothing was to hopefully get Mafia to guess if I am or am not Jailkeeper.

[StrangeMatter]

lack of concrete stances feels very much like strange-scum. By comparison, has reads, actively voices and votes suspicion, and generally tries to solve the game

Truthfully, I have no clue what my scum game even is still on this website ATM, especially in that game where I felt like I got screwed over a quite a bit that game.

[StrangeMatter]

Even then in another one of my Town games in the Open Queue I really didn’t do anything, then flipped town. Plus, I’ve only played two (really one if you don’t count how little I played as scum in that game), so to me while not unfounded this seems like a very weak argument.

[StrangeMatter]

I guess strange is possible but weh, not sure mafmen flops over like that as RB

I probably need to actually pay attention to strange's posts since I had written them off as obv-PR


LMAO, fck me if pseudoaristotle asked to be tracked as a mafia goon - I just realized how outrageously big brained that would have to be

Well I feel like it would probably be a mistake, especially now after Greeting’s flip, to just assume us Newbies are going to pull off something like that.

[StrangeMatter]

I'm wondering, @frogfrogs why were you agreeing with me so much on half of the stuff on Greeting's wagon, looking back when I read back in the ISO?

[StrangeMatter]

I agree with what Thynhith said up there! I'm unsure of a lot of the same people and most suspicious of Igor and Mafmen. I think based on Igor's quick vote they likely aren't

both

scum, but either is possible? Again, don't really agree with the reasoning Mafmen brought up that Igor's just too obvious to be maf, since so many of us are inexperienced in here. Placing a vote here for now.

VOTE: igorsprite

I don't really get this. Why does the number of players dictate how valid what Mafmen (assuming Too Scummy to be Scum here) said?

[StrangeMatter]

Sorry if I haven't really been saying much, I've been trying to read into both MafMen's and Frog's ISO.

Also, I realized that no-kill on means I think I have some information I think happened with the night kill. I'm certain I was the target tonight and the gamble worked out in our favor, but I'm going to analyze that kill for a second. Catboi had repeatedly said that they believed I was Jailkeeper, and this may be a stretch but I don't think he performed the kill last night or suggested killing me tonight. I'm guessing, though the kill may have been on me to either 1. flip me and see if I was actually jailkeeper, and 2. Potentially have an easy way to point towards catboi.

[StrangeMatter]

Sorry if I haven't really been saying much, I've been trying to read into both MafMen's and Frog's ISO.

Also, I realized that no-kill on means I think I have some information I think happened with the night kill. I'm certain I was the target tonight and the gamble worked out in our favor, but I'm going to analyze that kill for a second. Catboi had repeatedly said that they believed I was Jailkeeper, and this may be a stretch but I don't think he performed the kill last night or suggested killing me tonight. I'm guessing, though the kill may have been on me to either 1. flip me and see if I was actually jailkeeper, and 2. Potentially have an easy way to point towards catboi.

If strange ends up being a pr claim, ignore me, but this screams maf to me tbh. It looks like someone coached Strange, feels too "rehearsed" (idk the word I'm looking for)

like, it's just "I haven't been posting, I'm trying to read 2 people. My claim was believed so I'm town"

Usually people who are reading have something they bring up, not just "I'm trying to read 2 people" like, ok, if you tried to read mafmen and frogs, what did you find? I mean, obviously I can't clarify mafmen's thoughts, but that's something to consider, when reading, if you have questions on something just ask

Because I've done this exact play as scum before off-website, and just know from experience?

[StrangeMatter]

Also, here's a basic (and awful) recap. Igor claimed Tracker, Implosion claimed Jailkeeper, and I've already stated I am not jailkeeper.

[StrangeMatter]

Sorry if I haven't really been saying much, I've been trying to read into both MafMen's and Frog's ISO.

Also, I realized that no-kill on means I think I have some information I think happened with the night kill. I'm certain I was the target tonight and the gamble worked out in our favor, but I'm going to analyze that kill for a second. Catboi had repeatedly said that they believed I was Jailkeeper, and this may be a stretch but I don't think he performed the kill last night or suggested killing me tonight. I'm guessing, though the kill may have been on me to either 1. flip me and see if I was actually jailkeeper, and 2. Potentially have an easy way to point towards catboi.

If strange ends up being a pr claim, ignore me, but this screams maf to me tbh. It looks like someone coached Strange, feels too "rehearsed" (idk the word I'm looking for)

like, it's just "I haven't been posting, I'm trying to read 2 people. My claim was believed so I'm town"

Usually people who are reading have something they bring up, not just "I'm trying to read 2 people" like, ok, if you tried to read mafmen and frogs, what did you find? I mean, obviously I can't clarify mafmen's thoughts, but that's something to consider, when reading, if you have questions on something just ask

Because I've done this exact play as scum before off-website, and just know from experience?

What? like, to me it doesn't feel like this natural way of thinking, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I read that, and it looks like you're more focused with "Hey I'm town!" instead of pointing out who is scum, like why even mention that you tried to read, when the point of your post was like "Hey tr me!!!" when I don't think anyone was really focusing on you there, feels odd to me

And I already hate listening to you if this is how you're going to act for this game and have dumb accusations like this out of the bat to something that I have some semblance of what works and has worked in the past.

Seriously if that's what you think then fine, but it's still completely wrong from what I'm trying to do.

[StrangeMatter]

I'm already angry today, I'm not dealing with your accusation of LAMIST because it's just incredibly stupid.

[StrangeMatter]

Not right now at least.

[StrangeMatter]

I'm not hammering that, I just don't like their entrance or how igor is just using his votes.

[StrangeMatter]

What is with it and multiple people shading Igor's tracker claim by the way?

[StrangeMatter]

But this has happened multiple times over this game, not just your slot. I get I was wrong with Greeting but I feel like there's something up with that.

[StrangeMatter]

Uuugghhh Val being on MafMen slot too & this getting to E-1 makes me take a step back.

I

know Val and I aren't partners, so has he really examined me..? Was this vote actually such an easy choice for him?? I see his d1 analysis and it's just the same things he's been saying all game, like he's sticking to his story and wants to play me into keeping this vote by townreading me so hard.
What this is telling me is that there's two town in this pool, with.. prrrrobably strange as the partner either way? (I actually don't think the spat they and Adante had wasn't distancing. Strange's escalation after Adante's pretty odd push read as way defensive, if not also constructed.)
I really feel like I know nothing anymore in this game @_@ but I want to actually slow down here and think about if I've been wrong on Val the entire time. Don't hammer Adante yet.

VOTE: Val89

Gee, how about I take a swing at your best method of catching scum in the past and see how you feel about it. That's what that felt like to me.

[StrangeMatter]

Gee, how about I take a swing at your best method of catching scum in the past and see how you feel about it. That's what that felt like to me.

Sorry, what do you mean here? Are you saying you think Val's analysis looked like scum faking??

No, that's an example that best describes how I feel right now about their thoughts about it being LAMIST when I'm trying my best to solve with similar methods (using experience) I've had worked.

[StrangeMatter]

frogsfrogs can you please answer my question in #1085.

[StrangeMatter]

I still don’t quite get it, so are you saying that you believe that because of how inexperienced people are, that it doesn’t mean it doesn’t mean they are newbie town?

[StrangeMatter]

I still don’t quite get it, so are you saying that you believe that because of how inexperienced people are, that it doesn’t mean they are newbie town?

EBWOP (This happens way too much.)

[StrangeMatter]

I think I might've found something that could be useful here, but I need to confirm something with the moderator.

[StrangeMatter]

Why Igor here?

[StrangeMatter]

Implosion claimed.

[StrangeMatter]

Okay that clears some of that up, but now I’m wondering why you were so hedgy there Frogsfrogs?

[StrangeMatter]

I think I might've found something that could be useful here, but I need to confirm something with the moderator.

Also nevermind I checked and it probably wouldn’t work, being all mechanical, involving Igor and Implosion.

I mean hedgy in the post about Mafmen’s TSTBS.

[StrangeMatter]

Why are you gunning for my elimination anyways? Also, Val89 what is your current opinion of my slot?

[StrangeMatter]

Sorry, I mean it just looks you're 100% trying to play around me being the goon here which I don't just don't get.

[StrangeMatter]

I'm 99% certain now with Implosion coming out that I was the target last night for the NK.

[StrangeMatter]

I don't have have much faith in associations for catching scum right now. In all of my experience playing Mafia, only once off website has it worked out.

[StrangeMatter]

Why are you gunning for my elimination anyways? Also, Val89 what is your current opinion of my slot?

Please answer this.

[StrangeMatter]

I wasn't talking to you about that first question.

But here I have some thoughts I want to say; people have been shading Igor's slot and suggesting he might be lying (which is entirely possible), and playing around with that in mind. My problem is it's the type of stuff that I can see mafia throwing into a game to keep their options open and have as a target. Looking through this, I think if anyone in the past shading Igor flips red, Igor is going to be town.

[StrangeMatter]

What are your thoughts on MafMen/Andante, and frogs, Strangematter?

A bit lazy with this post but...

Frogsfrogs I feel like his ISO has a lot of analysis for this game which I know leads to solving, but then there's the horrible gut feeling I get from the fact he agreed with so much of what I've said. It's much like catboi appealing to me at one point in this game in a very exaggerated and desperate manner. Of course, it's a lot more subtle and that's what irks me about it. I find often that Mafia does things that are subtle, especially when a player had specifically been silently shading my slot before (I was a confirmed town) as it being Godfather.

Andante/Mafmen's as of right now I don't have much to say about MafMen other than him feeling pretty genuine in some of his posts that I feel comes from town, but Andante's posts really aren't very good. Such as #1176 where it is just OMGUS, and I don't see how that's suspicious at all and is just completely normal, and NAI.

[StrangeMatter]

WHAT.

[StrangeMatter]

I came back and a hammer just happened. What???

[StrangeMatter]

UNVOTE:

No, wait. No result n3? That's different to "it worked and frogs didn't visit anyone", no?

I've never played tracker. Can someone who has confirm what the results

should

be when roleblocked, and when the target doesn't visit?

How tracker works is it tells you who they targetted. It would say "X has/hasn't gone anywhere last night", or "No result" if you were roleblocked (I would include acetic but that doesn't exist in Newbies lol).

[StrangeMatter]

And I forgot but it tells you who they targetted.

[StrangeMatter]

HA! take that catboi and implosion, we won, i said to be more optimistic u.u

is obvious that frogfrogs is scum because val voted andante and we still have a roleblocker between frogsfrogs and val.

btw i never tracked catboi night 1(or 2 i don't remember :v), i didn't say that earlier to not create more confusion. i tracked frogsfrogs all nights and last night my role worked and frogsfrogs didn't act.

So wait, then it's not frogs? Unless you're lying again (seriously please stop) which you really need to give us accurate information because right now you've lied way too many times to count.

[StrangeMatter]

Oh right, the no kill lol. Forgot about that.

[StrangeMatter]

Who did you even target implosion?

[StrangeMatter]

I'm just double-checking at this point. But I am fine with hammering Frogs at this point.

[StrangeMatter]

Well, ggs.

[StrangeMatter]

Cannot believe I baited that NK lol, also thanks catboi and aristotle for setting that up.

[StrangeMatter]

This is the only time I've ever won in Newbie queue as well and the only game I've won and lived. Though really it's a pretty hollow victory.

[StrangeMatter]

Mmm I still don’t disagree with what I thought about Greeting repeatedly saying they’d self hammer as just bluffing. Even though you weren’t it definitely seemed that way.

Igor please don’t lie multiple times you threw way too much chaos into this game lol.

[StrangeMatter]

I still find it funny how much shade was thrown at our Tracker this game as well. Had it gone through Mafia would have gotten a massive lead lol.

[StrangeMatter]

Mmm I still don’t disagree with what I thought about Greeting repeatedly saying they’d self hammer as just bluffing. Even though you weren’t it definitely seemed that way.

Igor please don’t lie multiple times you threw way too much chaos into this game lol.

It would be exceptionally bad, high-risk low-reward scumplay to do this if I were scum. And that's something I was hoping town would understand but they didn't lol.

It still reads like a bluff no matter how you put it. And repeating it really just added fuel to that flame.

[StrangeMatter]

My problem with the scum utility argument is that it’s factoring out a lot of outside factors to it. For one thing the argument doesn’t bring is that either way it still can come from either alignment. Plus to me that ignores the issue of repeating it over and over sounding exactly like what I’d do as scum to bluff (and I’ve done that a lot before coming to this website, though in different ways). I know it has very little scum utility, but I don’t think it really should be AI though.

[StrangeMatter]

I get that Self Voting is a very Newbie town, but I just feel like that is exactly what (maybe not correct) gives it some level of utility that I'm probably paranoid about.

[StrangeMatter]

I feel like I didn't do nearly enough this game and the only remotely redeeming part of it was

only

the NK bait.