Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[frogsfrogs]

Hmmm!! Game gets spicy from the start, I see. Mark me present on the attendance sheet now! All here.

[frogsfrogs]

:P Of everything so far, I guess I'm most interested in that little back and forth about prev games! Voting for each other, are we, Margot and Thynhith?

[frogsfrogs]

:P Of everything so far, I guess I'm most interested in that little back and forth about prev games! Voting for each other, are we, Margot and Thynhith?

What about it makes it the most interesting thing so far to you?

I guess the conflict just stood out to me! Of course it's lighthearted ribbing and I don't think asking for more detail about what happened would be at all productive, but Margo had something pointed to say immediately and then Thynhith's reciprocal vote was the first to be less random, slightly more motivated, as defense of himself and/or a judgement on another player. :) Otherwise, we've been talking about game theory and advice for first timers (like I am, too). Just noting the interaction down, I think! They don't

seem

to be on the same side in a maf/maf way to me, that's something I can get from it.

[frogsfrogs]

igorsprite and pseudo interaction looks weird but i think its green for both sides
greeting seems probtown, i like their presence

VOTE: MafMen
Maf's post is pinging me hard, he's townreading the two newbies for an NAI interaction. Bad case of TMI. And greeting has only one post of substance. This is scum trying to make filler content and fakereading
Get on this guy

OK, I think I'd call your first point here a little odd, Thynhith. There's definitely

something

you can get from the interaction, if not much and super super inconclusively. I think I'm seeing Pseudo's actions as more inexperienced, overenthusiastic townie than such hubristic first time scum. I'm feeling okay about them for now. Igor jumping on their joke so hard makes sense, but combined with how short, yet numerous his other posts have been too I'm quite ???? Mostly a typing style thing, still pings in my head as initially worrying.

Second point though: absolutely. Greeting had some joke posting to do about philosophers and then made a one word post questioning pseudo after igor had already done the

same

thing. If I had to make a premature read, myself, I'm almost inclined to say the opposite.

Igor and Greeting, if you have anything more / anything to say about this MafMen vote I'd love to hear it!

[frogsfrogs]

I need to wait for the vote tally first to see if the vote in 55 is counted. I really want to vote him to put pressure, but it’s too early and too little to hammer on page 3 of Day One.

Artificial creation of content is never a townread to me.

This is very reasonable! Yeah, I'm not feeling too hot on that explanation of his reads either

[frogsfrogs]

Yeah, I think implosion's argument is that igor

doesn't

seem like he cares, catboi!

I see where that's coming from, but I can't make myself feel like it's conclusive. Seems like it could go either way to me? At least in a newbie match. I've got totally no thought either way yet on him

[frogsfrogs]

Oh yeah, of course!! I guess I mean conclusive in terms of feeling strongly about it or not, myself. ^ ^

[frogsfrogs]

As much as I get where you're coming from, "avoiding complicating yourself" is exactly the scum's preoccupation, not a town member's.

[frogsfrogs]

When you said you "removed the least suspicious" but also said those you removed were genuine newbies/those from past games, i'm a bit confused - which is it? Or do you just think you have a townread on catboi based on past games, and that the others are genuine newbies in the sense that they are newbies acting genuinely town?

Agreed that I'm confused here! Also, is thynhith in the newbies classification or did you not mention them at all?

[frogsfrogs]

I agree with what Thynhith said up there! I'm unsure of a lot of the same people and most suspicious of Igor and Mafmen. I think based on Igor's quick vote they likely aren't

both

scum, but either is possible? Again, don't really agree with the reasoning Mafmen brought up that Igor's just too obvious to be maf, since so many of us are inexperienced in here. Placing a vote here for now.

VOTE: igorsprite

[frogsfrogs]

UNVOTE:

Well :I

[frogsfrogs]

I don't know how to comment on this argument, nor should I, but I think I'm reading both Val and Greeting as very town from it.

[frogsfrogs]

catboi's comment in 107 is sort of poignant but I can also imagine that post coming from town who feels they have reasons. I would like frogs to respond to that.

For sure! I voted for igor when I did because his explanation in 101 just looked so bad to me, and worse as I reread. I was already unsure about Igor's short posts and willingness to jump on an early wagon, thinking them both to be possibly scum behavior, but I thought this was reasonable. Then, he changed tune to the different statement "I don't want to implicate myself by posting too much". I didn't think it was the same confident townie position he was explaining himself with before and I didn't think it all added up. ...But he had his own justification + much of this must be just a playstyle thing now. :S

[frogsfrogs]

I really thought Greeting and Val were both town arguing from different experience but this has absolutely spiraled now. :S

I guess I'd prefer to be talking about Val's new info from 180 re: Thynhith. I think it has some merit. The mentioned posts seemed totally town lean to me, but with greater context putting some doubt on them I see not much else I like?

VOTE: Thynhith

[frogsfrogs]

Noted on the activity. See ya soon! o/

Honestly I consider the derail to be doing more arguing about Greeting vs Val right now. I don't think Greeting proposing to self hammer makes him look more scummy and I don't think it says anything about Val.

[frogsfrogs]

I know this is activity-based meta, but I see frogsfrogs online most of the time I'm around and they have almost three times less posts than I do. They aren't posting in any other games. What's up with that? In 221, Val89 strongly townread frogs, without really saying why.

Maybe I'm being paranoid about this, but I think it should be pointed out.

Is this a normal line of questioning in long-form mafia? I don't know if it is but I don't really like this post. Does not seem substantial and I'd say this if it weren't about myself either.
I'm 1. not sure how having my game tab open all the time interacts with online status, but 2. self admittedly a complete newbie. TT_TT I don't think I check in as often as you're saying but at times I

do

catch up on reading and have no idea what to say and share. That's true!

I can admit to doing a bit of actual lurking today, if that's what you're accusing, though, with seemingly no one around and my current suspicion fully away from the game. Again, didn't want to retred the previous discussion either.

As much as I'd like to see Val89 voted out, I don't think we have a majority for that now. What's the case on Thyhinth? I see them as mostly towny.

His most decisive attempt to scumhunt was with the MafMen wagon, taking up most of his posts, but other than that he's been extremely general when he's given reads. 104 and 83 and 216 are examples. Why does he only say "something" about the argument between you and Val89 "irks him"?? I don't think his town advice posts have been necessarily alignment indicative either, and he and Val have each been referencing a past game for some meta behavior arguments.

[frogsfrogs]

I absolutely cannot see why Val would be scum and have posted the way/what he has so far. That sus from Greeting is my largest point of confusion with him, so yes, I'd really like for him to elaborate on the read, too.

[frogsfrogs]

what do you define "setup speculation" as then, yourself, Mafmen

[frogsfrogs]

what do you define "setup speculation" as then, yourself, Mafmen

speculating on what the setup is
so if greeting was trying to figure out what the other pr is, thats setup speculation
giving his own two cents on what the pr could do in each setup is not speculating

OK! Yeah, I understand that. I think that definition of things happened, in a way, too, but I see why that's a disagreement now.

[frogsfrogs]

Sorry, but that's bullshit. It's basically the only defense that would fly.

You are trying to tell me if you are scum, you would consider shooting a claimed VT with 2 PRs outstanding, unless you thought there was a chance they were lying?

there is a good chance that any mafia in a game decides to shoot a townread player instead of doing a potentially low reward act of pr hunting
theres also shit like fearkilling

Can some other people weigh in here, please, because I am starting to doubt my reality.

Are these two talking out their arses, or have I taken a blow to the head or something?

Yeah no, sorry MafMen, you're misreading Val's argument here I think. It's not "does a VT claim survive until late game", it's "if you are still around in late game as scum, how do you defend yourself?" He's saying claiming VT early prepares a narrative. That's what I'm reading, at least.

[frogsfrogs]

I absolutely cannot see why Val would be scum and have posted the way/what he has so far. That sus from Greeting is my largest point of confusion with him, so yes, I'd really like for him to elaborate on the read, too.

Greeting, will you explain your current stance on Val more than in 225?

[frogsfrogs]

That's E-1. Thynhith is still gone and might be for another day or so. I absolutely think this is where we should be voting, with Greeting creeping up into being my second choice if he won't / can't sufficiently explain his vote being where it is right now.

[frogsfrogs]

Implosion mentions an entirely different post in his vote explain and I responded to Greeting more recently with a wider argument. I do not consider that to be the only post we're voting you up on.

[frogsfrogs]

If you mean this post, I'm a little surprised you're so swayed by Val talking out of his meta. All he said was I had a different vibe in this game, and something I did looks like something he did. Ugh, and before that you were townleaning me

Sorry, back here. It was less recent than I thought. --

As much as I'd like to see Val89 voted out, I don't think we have a majority for that now. What's the case on Thyhinth? I see them as mostly towny.

His most decisive attempt to scumhunt was with the MafMen wagon, taking up most of his posts, but other than that he's been extremely general when he's given reads. 104 and 83 and 216 are examples. Why does he only say "something" about the argument between you and Val89 "irks him"?? I don't think his town advice posts have been necessarily alignment indicative either, and he and Val have each been referencing a past game for some meta behavior arguments.

[frogsfrogs]

I absolutely cannot see why Val would be scum and have posted the way/what he has so far. That sus from Greeting is my largest point of confusion with him, so yes, I'd really like for him to elaborate on the read, too.

Curious, what makes you think that? It sounds like you've got Val townlocked

Townlocked is strong, of course, but yes he's my highest read. In their argument, Greeting and Val were both calling the other scum for their position on the role talk but I do not see what value scum!Val89 gets from his side of that. Explosive, double psychology play for town cred that involves disagreeing with three other players at once right out of the gate? I think the rest of his questioning has been helpful and well placed, too.

[frogsfrogs]

I don't think using the remaining daytime to continue to interrogate motivations is a bad thing. Val did specifically say he wanted catboi to answer his question, shrug. I think catboi, greeting??, mafmen are who I'd want to look at in following days if we lim Thyn now. No clue where pseudoAristotle will stand/is standing now, but they've been town-y, so not of worry to me.

[frogsfrogs]

Welcome, StrangeMatter! Hello again everyone.

[frogsfrogs]

I honestly don’t understand why no one is discussing this. What a weird game.

Yeah, I don't know what we discuss about this without PR coming out. Those who have the information know if it's important or not. What do you expect to get from this?

[frogsfrogs]

I honestly don’t understand why no one is discussing this. What a weird game.

Yeah, I don't know what we discuss about this without PR coming out. Those who have the information know if it's important or not. What do you expect to get from this?

Asking pretty genuinely here by the way. What are we able to get as town from

just

knowing there was no kill, especially without giving the Maf too much extra knowledge?? Like, I can't think of anything. Sucks for us that igor didn't get anything, but it's fine, it's fine.

[frogsfrogs]

VOTE: frogsfrogs

Starting here. Think their day 1 amounted mostly to opportunistic sheeping, little in the way of their own thoughts, the things people have given them towncred for are laughably shallow.

I'd disagree that I gave very few of my thoughts. I was definitely vote shy for part of the day in a way people super aren't here, but I think I've been clear about myself and my reads. What do you think was less "oppertunistic sheeping" about your #3 Thynhith vote as opposed to mine??

[frogsfrogs]

Oh, lied about what i did last night to see you guys reaction xd. i used my role and we have a doctor

?

[frogsfrogs]

frogs: could you give a general overview of how you feel on everyone in the game right now?

Yep! From roughly least to most confident--

StrangeMatter slot : I assumed PseudoAristotle to be town based on their early posting and StrangeMatter hasn't done anything yet to change that. Lightly town, not much to go on.

Greeting : I've publicly gone back and forth on him. I don't consider the self hammer announcement to be necessarily town but now his posting since then has been

weird

. In my PoE but probably third.

Implosion : Really widely townread and I agree. Asks a lot of incisive questions and makes his own thoughts clear at the right times. If you're scum, you're really great at it! :'D

MafMen: Still think the argument that his first few posts were bad holds water and I haven't actually seen anything from him since that makes me townread. Pushing Val today is dumb and looks like scum grabbing at what they think is a viable train, since he's been controversial.

Catboi : Don't trust their reads, especially the multiple they've swung quite significantly on in a way I don't understand. They've had MafMen as scum, to town when his train eased, back to scum as this day starts because apparently they rethought that read overnight. They've soft shaded Val a few times without doing anything about it, like they're interested in voting Val but only later on and if they see enough support. Their push on me right now is reasonable if they

are

town, I get it, but in combination with everything else, I think I'm just a player on the edge of a few townreads who named catboi as a potential sus yesterday and isn't going to make them look bad if they push me.

Val89 : His outspoken-ness is a playstyle thing for sure but I think it's been placed correctly and good for town since he's swapped in. If he were scum, his play so far would have only been hurting himself and placing a massive target on his back. Have not seen reasonable explanation as to how he makes sense as scum.

Igorsprite left off of the list as he's a PR claim. I do want him to say what he thinks he got out of that short lie but I think it's scummy if you're full on pushing him ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[frogsfrogs]

VOTE: frogsfrogs

Starting here. Think their day 1 amounted mostly to opportunistic sheeping, little in the way of their own thoughts, the things people have given them towncred for are laughably shallow.

I'd disagree that I gave very few of my thoughts. I was definitely vote shy for part of the day in a way people super aren't here, but I think I've been clear about myself and my reads. What do you think was less "oppertunistic sheeping" about your #3 Thynhith vote as opposed to mine??

Are you asking me why I believe

my own vote

wasn't scummy?

Yes, I sheeped implo's case because it made sense to me. That does not matter in terms of me perceiving your actions as not being town motivated.

Not "explain why your own vote wasn't scummy" but "how should anyone else trust that assessment of my vote over the same assessment of yours". I really wanted discussion at the time to move on from arguments I saw as increasingly heated, granular, and unhelpful & Thyn looked bad. It's unfortunate he couldn't explain himself earlier / better and move us all off of him :S

[frogsfrogs]

Oh,

oh my god okay. You're officially saying you tracked catboi and got a result that they visited someone? Like they're potentially the Mafia PR? You must believe that if you're announcing to everyone that they took an action.

[frogsfrogs]

You better believe that and be right :X Oh man.

[frogsfrogs]

What the hell is going on here? Why did Greeting and catboi align so quickly after catboi claimed VT, as if that couldn't be false?? Igor, what is it you're saying about your track results? Did you see catboi visit someone or not???

[frogsfrogs]

MafMen: Still think the argument that his first few posts were bad holds water and I haven't actually seen anything from him since that makes me townread. Pushing Val today is dumb and looks like scum grabbing at what they think is a viable train, since he's been controversial.

pushing an easy vote so he must be scum!!!!!! jfc
occam's razor, the simplest answer is likely the correct one

Said in the exact same sentence that I think a Val vote is a bad one ,

plus

the fact that there's maybe enough support to get a lim on him.

[frogsfrogs]

What the hell is going on here? Why did Greeting and catboi align so quickly after catboi claimed VT, as if that couldn't be false?? Igor, what is it you're saying about your track results? Did you see catboi visit someone or not???

i didn't see lol, the jailkeeper targeted me last night so i received no result

OH. Oh. Well

[frogsfrogs]

I understand your post before now, then, Igor. Okay.
Double lying on this one was certainly a play and I'm not sure it was as worth it as you think it is, let alone harming your credibility, but yeah, it provoked some reactions.

[frogsfrogs]

As scum I'd

know

it was a bluff, and not be worried at all.

What do you mean at this part? How do you know it to be a bluff as scum??

[frogsfrogs]

Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.

Super agree. I'm really confused as to how greeting thought catboi was the more verified claim when Igor claimed to have caught them in an action.

[frogsfrogs]

Hey, chill out :T Whatever you think of them in the game, don't be rude please

[frogsfrogs]

Why isn't this exactly how you'd react as scum to a tracker guilty that you know is fake?

How does "I'd have just nightkilled the other PR" imply you're town when no one died last night?

...Because I'D KNOW HE WAS BLUFFING?

And because I'd have nightkilled the other PR, rather than having a kill blocked???

We aren't in your head, we need another layer of explanation. What are you saying would have been different / better about your reaction if you were hypothetically scum and Igor claims to have seen you visit?

Edit after seeing new posts pop up: Sorry yes, exactly what Implosion said. We just don't know what your full argument is. Also, I think trying to reverse card onto implosion for "not having scum hunted at all' is a rough sell for making yourself look townie D: Maybe you don't consider this pushes to be correct but they haven't

not

existed??

[frogsfrogs]

I should be selfevidently town because I wouldn't have reacted to the tracker guilty that way at all (because I'd either know it's fake or because it'd confirm me), and because the other PR is really, really obvious and I'd have just nightkilled them.

And again, you think I just slam back at the person who's mostly universally townread as scum? That trying to flip him with a "shitpush" is likely to succeed?

Please

. The idea is ludicrous.

Yes, igor, I am very definitely trying to put people in doubt! That's the point! Do you think me putting doubt on you is at all useful if I'm going to flip red?

I fully believe the emotional response is real here, but I can't say I find these arguments convincing anyways. "If I were scum, I would have just done x" / "I wouldn't be doing this if I were scum!" are fully unprovable and I don't think I'd have found the hypothetical behavior much less suspicious. It feels to me like you're saying way too much to try and move the town's focus and, if that doesn't work, remind everyone that this isn't scum behavior because scum wouldn't push suspicion onto clear townies ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[frogsfrogs]

Catboi : Don't trust their reads, especially the multiple they've swung quite significantly on in a way I don't understand. They've had MafMen as scum, to town when his train eased, back to scum as this day starts because apparently they rethought that read overnight. They've soft shaded Val a few times without doing anything about it, like they're interested in voting Val but only later on and if they see enough support. Their push on me right now is reasonable if they

are

town, I get it, but in combination with everything else, I think I'm just a player on the edge of a few townreads who named catboi as a potential sus yesterday and isn't going to make them look bad if they push me.

Catboi, if you want engagement, can you tell me about your MafMen read throughout the game? Why has it changed when it has?

I'm voting catboi here and they'll be at E-1. Would be nice if greeting caught up and answered some questions before we get to a hammer
VOTE: catboi

[frogsfrogs]

Igor said the doctor thing was part of one of the lie gambits. His official statement now, for real no lying, is that he tried to track and was roleblocked by a jailkeeper.

[frogsfrogs]

Responding to some of 588. If you consider giving reads without citing specific posts to be vague, then sure. I was asked to give an overview of everyone. Re: doubting my strong town reads, you said yourself that a large part of reading people is determining whether you think their actions are genuine or not, and from my pov I think that's been very apparent of Implosion and Val. (Both of their reactions to greeting yesterday made sense and Val's doesn't come from scum, implosion arguing with you today he was genuinely not sure what to do but believed your reactions to be scum indicative.) I understand why they're doing the things they're doing, generally, and it seems reasonable and in line with a town agenda. You seem really annoyed by the rest of us acting on reads we don't have positive proof for, but that's something we're

so

unlikely to have in a mafia game. If you're the player who looks the least townie to people, that's a reason to vote you.

Now, all that being said: why do you find my wavering back and forth on my read of MafMen to be actually scummy? What's the scum motivation there, rather than me simply being town who's indecisive on their read?

See above, but also goes back to the "keeping your options open." We all change our minds sometimes, especially as we get new information, but scum can change their opinion of a player whenever they want based on what looks best and helps them the most, since they have alternate motivations. MafMen was a train that worked for a while, died down, and now he's back as an option, just like your read of him.

Plus the chance that MafMen is your partner who you rvs-ed to distance from, he messed up, and now you're leaving room to bus him if needbe. :T

[frogsfrogs]

I think greeting's arguement for scum!igor looks even worse than catboi's, who at least came up with a scenario wherein there's reasonable doubt. Is your read of Igor really just that his lies were a bad move and you think he seems untrustworthy, Greeting??

[frogsfrogs]

Ok, sure. I can respond to this point by point. Sorry for the length, everyone.

But their reactions to Greeting were entirely the opposite. How do they both come across as "making sense" when they have completely different reactions? What do you understand about what they're doing? It can't be that hard to point to a single thing, right?

Yes, they were opposite, but I think both were very internally consistent, seemed real, and are anchored in town logic. That's my point here. I consider the roleset strategizing to be probably a bad move, but implosion never thought it was an issue. He makes a post about this just after Val's entrance, 134, but then he's gone for the next few pages wherein greeting/val/mafmen argue. When he comments again, he says he still thinks the same way about the strategizing being fine, but that Val looks super townie for how he's reacted, 183 and 186, and he pushes back at greeting to try and convince him of this, too. I think 188 and 191 are both great examples-- he feels really strongly about this read and is trying to wrangle the both of them into stepping back and seeing what he sees. I think it's genuine and don't see why appealing to greeting is good for scum here, when it's a situation easily jumped on, either. Val I've spoken about before-- I really believe this is something he was irritated by after knowing it to have happened in a game already, given the depth of explanation he gives and the emotional progression as he and greeting argue. 156 as a specific example if you'd like.

- Why do you see val as a "viable train", when exactly three people have expressed suspicion of him, and you're scumleaning everyone doing it? Who do you think is going to make Val a potential elim here?

Is MafMen an option? No one's voting him.

I

haven't voted him. I already said I thought his response was town-leaning. And, again, he's your second highest scumread, so how does that make any sense at all?

I have the unfortunate, maybe emotional :/, reaction of feeling like some of this is attempting to make me doubt my own understanding of the game state. Genuinely, this and my own life schedule are why I did not respond fully before. It's not questioning that's the issue, but these two questions seem like no matter what I answer, you can jump on me for it. You know already I don't trust your motivations in this game, here, but apologies anyways if I can't fully see these as 100% good faith.

Going into this day I totally thought there could have been a push for Val. As you mention, there are three pretty strong scum reads of him, we had no idea of StrangeMatter's reads (plus they gave an ambivalent one of him shortly before Maf voted), I didn't realize implosion's townread was as strong as it actually is upon re-read (Guess I had the impression it faded a bit over time?), and igor has, a few times, voted very quickly for someone after a case is made for them being scum. It's not as viable currently as I thought it was, sure. As for MafMen, I absolutely think he's still an option? I'm of the impression he's the second-most widely scumread. I'm aware thinking that you two could be the maf team

and

that you want to vote out MafMen is odd, but I fully believe either

could

be true. Thus PoE.

- What about Greeting's posting is "weird", and why do you find that to be potentially scum-indicative?

Majorly, his suspicion of Igor. :T I truly think it's a silly opinion, especially that he's still holding it now, even if you disagree with his plays.

- What questions of implosion's are "incisive"? What about "making his own thoughts clear" is a towntell exactly? Why don't scum want to make their thoughts clear?

Implosion has frequently contributed to discussions in ways that moves discussion along and he does it in ways I think are good for town and agree with. Obviously this is subjective, but like, the inverse of saying x player is scummy for going down distracting rabbit holes and saying things just for saying them. 438, 344, getting back to questioning Maf in 69 are good imo. I think it's less plausible that this is a brilliant scum performance than just being townie.

- Has it placed a target on him, though? He's not even come close to being an elimination. Wouldn't "being outspoken" and "placing a massive target on his back" equally describe me? What do you think he's done that's "placed correctly" and "good for town"?

See above x2. Honestly I think your own outspoken-ness has been mostly reactive and I disagree that it hasn't been something scum could do. Val's way of making enemies and scum hunting is, again, less plausible to me as a scum move than him just actually being town.

[frogsfrogs]

Ultimately if you are town here, frogsfrogs, you're the type of player who gets hyperfocused on a particular worldview where you see someone as scum and view all their actions in the least charitable light while not showing the empathy to consider a possible perspetive where those actions could be coming from town. I think this sort of thing usually just leads to bad tunneling but becomes correctable with enough experience to understand other people's perspectives and how they think about things.

Sure, sure. I'm hearing you on this, and I'm not

ignoring

your reads or developing perspective either. I don't feel as locked into those opinions or as misinformed as you say. I just.. I don't know. I see what I see and I don't know how to make headway in the game if I'm too indecisive / go back and doubt my perceptions about that too much. If you get flipped today and are town, well :I .. I'll have to heed the warning and reread a bunch with that context.

[frogsfrogs]

Rather than apologizing, I'd appreciate it if you tried actually communicating about your reads if you're town. keeping everything to yourself accomplishes nothing and is unfun to deal with. You say you think that you "can't trust anyone", is that true of the game right now?

i town read frogsfrogs, val and implosion because they are saying what i'm thinking, like here 622 and that was uncomfortable because i was sussing frogsfrogs day 1. oh, i town read strangematter too because i think that he is the jailkeeper.

i'm neutral for mafmen

i scum read you and Greeting because you two are accusing me. btw, i want to hammer you because you are changing my read about you and i don't want that to happen

and i like you

Sounds from here like you think you have the game solved and I'm not feeling that confident in picking out a full team. You're saying you'd vote MafMen third?

[frogsfrogs]

Oh yeah, this is totally true from Val. Igor says he was roleblocked, and if he's scum that means the kill was blocked by jk. If anyone's still trying to call igor's claim fake, what did the other mafia do? What are the lies from scum!igor, what is true, and what are you proposing happened last night?

[frogsfrogs]

If it helps, I'm coming back around to you probably being scum and your hemming and hawing being an act!

wow, thanks :)... <3

[frogsfrogs]

I'd still like greeting to explain their catboi read as well as talk more about igor. He's been favorable towards them all game and only explained, once, that they think they're acting within meta from a previous town game they were in together. Is it really that strong of a read on just that basis??

[frogsfrogs]

Is your assumption of Val and I as the scum team because you just find us individually scummy or do you think we've actually acted like we're in cahoots?

[frogsfrogs]

Agreed on the second part of 676. It seems unreasonable for a scum team with Igor in it to have risked their kill on the chance jk doesn't go for him, no matter what.

[frogsfrogs]

Agreed on the second part of 676. It seems unreasonable for a scum team with Igor in it to have risked their kill on the chance jk doesn't go for him, no matter what.

Err, meant Val's 681, where he responded to 676!

[frogsfrogs]

@frogsfrogs Oh, and you asked about igor. Read my previous posts (and 702) - nothing has changed so far. They’re still trying to pull off the inexperienced newbie card to mask their previous lies. I just refuse to buy it. I hate to say stuff like this as I don’t like to drag people down, but at best he’s just a really bad player lacking any goal whatsoever other than artificial drama - in short, a Jester.

Can I ask how you determine "pulling the inexperienced newbie card" from actual newbie play? Are there any specific posts where you feel like he's actively leveraging his inexperience? Because I feel like I've only seen him argue that he knows what he's doing.
I think it's been clarified to you before. Igor's final answer on his night action is that he was roleblocked, and both reports that he made before were lies intended to scope out catboi.

I

don't think it was successful or a great play-- I understand how that damages his credibility-- but can't you see how that's at least consistent enough to be maybe true? I can't get past how mechanically unreasonable it is for him to be called scum here. Even under catboi's setup 2c explanation, where there's a jk that does not know yet if igor is real or not, why do we dare vote igor today, on the chance that he's our real tracker?

review edit: yes, exactly what StrangeMatter says. I honestly consider it scummy to be still trying to argue for this, for your vote to still be on him. Scum would love for everyone to say "Yeah, wait, you're right!" and lim him without them needing to use an nk.

[frogsfrogs]

I also want to say right now: I think

frogsfrogs

has been

super

selective in the things they are choosing to post and respond to in-thread, generally relegating themselves to a very narrow band of arguments about igorsprite's claim and avoiding all the other stuff, and I think it's highly mafia-indicative, hat they just don't know how to make a rebuttal to what I'm putting out and so are just willfully ignoring it

Yeah, I've admitted before already to sometimes reading through the thread, having my own reactions and taking stuff in, but then blanking on what to actually say. :/ Definitely a lot of what I've posted today has been related to the Igor case, but it's been about pursuing a thread on greeting that's been totally confusing me and I still think looks not town. I've realized so far that they're... firm in stating the belief and not active enough right now to hash it out. Fine. I keep reading through your big greeting analysis to try and digest it and I think it makes me waiver my read on you more than it does him.

[frogsfrogs]

Absolutely not let’s not put Catboi at E-1.

I think this post is the best case for Strange being maybe town. Scum would want to talk it out for a bit and then hammer, really, right?

[frogsfrogs]

Okay.
You realize that you only coming in to say this now, after implosion unvotes me and removes the momentum on me, makes it look like you're playing to an agenda? Like you're trying to just shift people's focus to a different wagon now that you can't get me flipped.

I have not unvoted you, still scum read you, and have been actively questioning greeting before now. My focus has already been there and hasn't moved from you either. This was an attempt to try and be more forthcoming / generous with my thought process after you specifically pointed out that I've only felt confident in a few trains of thought recently. :/ It's true that I think the depth of your posting is a point for townieness, now that you're still in that mode multiple real days after you were initially voted.

[frogsfrogs]

Okay.
You realize that you only coming in to say this now, after implosion unvotes me and removes the momentum on me, makes it look like you're playing to an agenda? Like you're trying to just shift people's focus to a different wagon now that you can't get me flipped.

I have not unvoted you, still scum read you, and have been actively questioning greeting before now. My focus has already been there and hasn't moved from you either. This was an attempt to try and be more forthcoming / generous with my thought process after you specifically pointed out that I've only felt confident in a few trains of thought recently. :/ It's true that I think the depth of your posting is a point for townieness, now that you're still in that mode multiple real days after you were initially voted.

Again, make whatever excuse you want. If you think I am scum, why do you act like you have something to prove when I make a point about how you're engaging with the thread? Why do you only mention being unsure and start posturing toward Greeting when the momentum on me dies down? Why are you scared to engage with any of my actual substance to even state why you disagree?

This is a pattern with you, and it's really incredibly scummy

Again, what do you mean that I am posturing towards greeting now when much of my posting in the past day-- which you are the one to bring up at the top of this reply chain-- has been about questioning greeting (for his read on Igor)!!
I KNOW I am not great at scumhunting yet. I'm town and I am trying my best to engage. I do not think the way you're characterizing this post is true to reality and need to say so.

If you'd like to prove me wrong, then go ahead, give me some free associative thoughts, as best as you can, as to why you don't agree with my analysis of Greeting. Don't have to even respond to specific points of mine, just go off the top of your head.

Sure. Give me a moment.

[frogsfrogs]

The things I'm read from your greeting posts, catboi, are that 1. His early reads were weak, even for the beginning of day 1, but 2. His real seeming emotionality and 3. Sometimes implausible theories look like town and not scum behavior respectively.
I think I've had a difficult time engaging with emotional quality arguments in particular so far, given how subjective they are and all. I know it is more

difficult

to conjure true-seeming emotions as scum, but in the same way you've argued that scum Val likely wouldn't argue for play he thinks is mechanically wrong, I think scum greeting could have had this reaction, for real, too. He tries to push for Igor, coasting on others' dislike of his posts, and is met with a pr claim. As scum, he knows the setup now. Outlining strategies for the other, potentially totally newbie, town pr is easy enough for him to do and try for towncred, and I know I considered him town at the time. When Val is put in the game and begins really explosively arguing with he and implosion, I think it's reasonable for scum to actually have deep seeded belief about what the mechanically correct route is, actually be upset by Val's debate style, and three, be annoyed that they're not being read as town for what they think they should be being reads as town for. There's also that MafMen and implosion are fighting Val here too, and it isn't for a page or two that the dust settles and Val gets a town read. Scum greeting doesn't have a reason to not get into the argument here, imo.
It's a similar situation with his reaction to your VT claim. Greeting went into this day talking about being unsure of the setup, Igor starts admitting to interesting lies, and then you vote him and say that he's lied again. Greeting might fully think that policy limming for lies there is good, and he might fully think that it'll be more convincing to others (because the atmosphere was more anti igor at the time he agreed with you).

And that the only player who can corroborate Igor's story is the JK, by coming out.

I don't think he's made not scum by his reactions here, and that his reasoning for pushing Val and Igor isn't strong, and that it's really convenient for scum if these players are limmed. I do not think his reads have improved through the game and I think there's a logical line from his more odd posts and theories to scum motivation.

[frogsfrogs]

I.. don't know what to say then. I feel like you're trying to convince me, myself, that I'm scum here, with no one else engaging & having written like 4/5 of my last posts in response to you. :I I think my summary and my response aimed mostly at why I I'm not convinced by what you're convinced by are completely appropriate when I'm reacting to your posts. I start to bring up positive arguments for him being scum at the end.
I think 430 and 582 are scummy. "Only the other PR knows what's true or not"??? Arguing that Igor's alleging mechanically impossible situations when he isn't? I think having changed his Igor read overnight is scummy, and that his weak read on you, and weak reads in general, is a bad sign at this stage. My read on him deteriorated through the end of day one as he stuck so hard to the Val argument and makes gestures like 279: "Well, if no one is convinced by each other, then the game is lost!" I actually do not think the self hammer declaration is nessecarily town AI and you've even noted as meta reads that greeting hasn't gotten as upset being voted as town, previously.

[frogsfrogs]

@frogsfrogs if you are town, vote for val


VOTE: frogsfrogs

Oh my god what,

no.

I'm seeing Val doing this as a way to force opinions of greeting (see who thinks this self vote is still scummy vs thinking greeting self hammer threat town & why) and see if there's a hammer after his two scum reads are already voting him. He's town. He doesn't do this right now, making himself

actually

in danger of a lim, unlike greeting, if he's about to flip red and I think this kind of extreme play is in line with who he's been so far!!

VOTE: Greeting
It's two of greeting / catboi / mafmen, and this train makes it look a lot like the first two :I

[frogsfrogs]

Unvote

My vote's still symbolically on Val; consider his selfvote to be my vote. I don't want igor to hammer just yet though.

This is townie by implosion

[frogsfrogs]

Val absolutely should start explaining himself here, but yeah, sure, me reading the situation is clearly a scumtell. Do you agree with igor that I'm only town if I vote him?? How does this being a bluff by scum!val work?

[frogsfrogs]

Catboi's super stuck in these reads and I feel like they've been leaning on their experience and ability to write create expansive arguments like this all day as scum. I want to respond to some posts a few pages back but won't be able to until later today. See the thread then.

I will say a Val flip.. gives us lots of info to go on.

Like "two scum pushed this." :/

We're in MELO tomorrow with a mislim though.

[frogsfrogs]

Uggghhhhhh. I dont like being instructed by you or by Igor.

[frogsfrogs]

Alright. I.. see that. And if, by surprise, someone I don't expect

(basically just Igor)

hammers here that's something to maybe examine. I want to flip catboi tomorrow for sure.

VOTE: Val89

[frogsfrogs]

No, wait, duh. Add implosion to the strike text too ob's. He's town and might still think Val here

[frogsfrogs]

Ok, I think Strange is totally right about greeting seeming to parrot other people's reads of them,,, I think greeting's explanation for implosion is really weak and weird, even, too. You think that implosion is slightly less townie for taking action to back off on Val's train after he selfvoted? Scum would totally take advantage of the probably anti-town play there. It's like you would have preferred Val get quick hammered.

[frogsfrogs]

This is the clearest that greeting has been about reads all game and I still don't trust it.

[frogsfrogs]

This is the clearest that greeting has been about reads all game and I still don't trust it.

why's that?

I'm seeing greeting echo implosion's reads on you ("catboi's put in too much effort to be scum" is what made him start to townread you today) and on strangematter ("they're fence sitting"), but he uses the opportunity to scumlean strange. I don't think him not having seen this from implosion but arriving at the same ideas is impossible, but I don't believe it and don't like his "it isn't literally word for word!" response either. Not really addressing the issue: that copying off of implosion's homework would be something scum is interested in / fall back to doing, the posts are

so

similar as to be basically word for word, and I don't think he's expanded on the thoughts beyond what implo said.
Again, I think his Implosion section is weak. His examples in the first part are fine and I've not actually been able to articulate my implosion townread better than he does here :'') but when he tries to explain why implosion is only moderate town to him, he's citing implo's "carefulness" that it's supposedly too late in the day for? Implosion hasn't claimed to or seemed to be pushing for a nolim and I don't know why scum

would

, if Val was at e-1. Seems like nonsensical logic, at best totally based on being poisoned on val and at worst trying to call being careful with our lim here a scum thing to do, like he wants us to have rushed into something.

Even though he's my sus too, I think his MafMen read is kind of a straw grasp tbh. "His reads and reason for voting me were simplistic" but the cited post is by design an elaboration-less sort list and a non-explanation on why he finds greeting sus. Feels like taking something out of context, ask follow up questions if you're concerned about no explanation.

My section is, again, something you and Igor have already said, but he adds more of his own here by way of questioning. 1. I voted catboi instead of you because, as you can see in the list you link, I considered him more scummy than you. He was also the one being questioned and pushed at the time. 2. Val said it and was making arguments for the same PoE just before the post you cite, but it was already there in my reads list from the start of the day, so I don't think the "repeated from Val" characterization is very accurate. "Why" is a lot to answer but, generally, I'm strong in my townreads elsewhere, don't think StrangeMatter should be the vote today because we've had people speculate PR on them, and have found you three to be the least convincingly town. I've explained more in the past. 3. I've been trusting Val for a while now because I townread him so strongly on d1. I understand if you're abrased by him but. He asked me to put a vote on him to try and make sure we had a lim / to examine behavior, I didn't think anyone else would actually vote him after I did, or that someone doing unexpectedly would say a lot. I obliged him. Speaking of.

UNVOTE:

[frogsfrogs]

I'm happy with this as the lim! This is E-1.

VOTE: MafMen

[frogsfrogs]

Trying to reread his posts to feel more sure and I just get the distinct feeling he's been coasting for a while. I don't understand the "been posting non-scum things recently" read a few people have given but maybe I'm just dumb.

Oh.

[frogsfrogs]

well. TT_TT The premise is true, maybe, but I hate it

[frogsfrogs]

greeting / igor deserves to win every time at that rate LMAO

[frogsfrogs]

Two no kills and some confirmed jailor info today is lifesaving.. Uuugghhh that last minute greeting town self vote.

[frogsfrogs]

Pseudo.... TT_TT

[frogsfrogs]

Val, what does the "overly-defensive" read of catboi's post mean. You just saying that or do you seriously think it's a bad post? Because I can't understand the latter

[frogsfrogs]

I'm wondering, @frogfrogs why were you agreeing with me so much on half of the stuff on Greeting's wagon, looking back when I read back in the ISO?

I agreed because I totally saw the same thing you did in their reads post. ^^'' I was vocal about him being on my sus list too.

[frogsfrogs]

That leaves a nice small pool of Val, frogs, and MafMen for today.

This whole post from implosion makes a lot of sense. Getting the roleblocker is the most important thing right now and if we manage to find them, the goon should come easily after. We'll have our PRs fully back, we can look for partners, and we have two mechanical clears.

[frogsfrogs]

If it's

somehow

goon/goon setup and igor's been the luckiest scum ever, we either 1. mislim today and get a second chance tomorrow with an even more limited pool, reevaluate then and restart chart? or 2. get the second goon today and know tomorrow whether to consider igor or not. (newbie assumption / question coming up) Mafia can only do one action at night, right..? So we know igor won't be roleblocked

and

there be a kill if only one is left. He'd be forced to no kill or fake a track result and "clear" someone as town, and it better be someone relevant if he wants us to believe him. He either limits the lim space by giving us a real town confirm and constricts himself, or no kills, or, like, tries to pull a gambit about having seen someone visit and immediately narrows it down to him or them.

[frogsfrogs]

VOTE: MafMen

Going through ISO I

really

feel like his posting all game has been marked by so many nothing posts / irrelevant sidetracks, and exacerbating arguments. Basically all of his d1 posts sort into these and his d2 was better, but he was so away from the game as to make it hard to tell. He also picked up way more in short reply & question snipes at players but

not really solving.

He never responds again to points he makes, seeming content to make the posts, but also sit back and let anyone else take the wheel. I'm Having trouble gleaming anything from his big reads post

which I missed completely before, oops,

but maybe it isn't AI necessarily anyways. He waffled a lot on catboi yesterday but I feel like I'm seeing him still arguing at them after expressing a probable townread. 935 he says the "so many trains you've jumped on" comments aren't about calling that scummy, just noting it down, but like. Why say it then.

[frogsfrogs]

Uuugghhh Val being on MafMen slot too & this getting to E-1 makes me take a step back.

I

know Val and I aren't partners, so has he really examined me..? Was this vote actually such an easy choice for him?? I see his d1 analysis and it's just the same things he's been saying all game, like he's sticking to his story and wants to play me into keeping this vote by townreading me so hard.
What this is telling me is that there's two town in this pool, with.. prrrrobably strange as the partner either way? (I actually don't think the spat they and Adante had wasn't distancing. Strange's escalation after Adante's pretty odd push read as way defensive, if not also constructed.)
I really feel like I know nothing anymore in this game @_@ but I want to actually slow down here and think about if I've been wrong on Val the entire time. Don't hammer Adante yet.

VOTE: Val89

[frogsfrogs]

Gee, how about I take a swing at your best method of catching scum in the past and see how you feel about it. That's what that felt like to me.

Sorry, what do you mean here? Are you saying you think Val's analysis looked like scum faking??

[frogsfrogs]

frogs why should i be reading you as town

I have been actively trying to understand everyone all game and engage in solving. Some of my posts to you yesterday were wrapped up in what might be a faulty scum read of you & frustration but I've been forthcoming and thoughtful and explanatory as I can be.

I really think it could be either Val or Adante here. They were both really key votes on greeting yesterday and I think there's a world where Val has had me pocketed like this whole time. :I There's potential partners for both of them too.

[frogsfrogs]

Val's votes so far have been (Margot RVS) Thynhith -> Implosion -> Greeting -> Thynhith -> Catboi -> Himself -> catboi -> greeting -> MafMen, right?

Adante's slot has gone Val -> (day 2) Val -> catboi -> greeting

So few votes from MafMen probably reflects a playstyle thing, and also his absence from much of day 2. Notably they've all been very

early

votes on the train, too. He was first to Val, first to catboi, and second on greeting when the votes were placed. I consider that a little bit +town, apparently starting trains that then other players followed.
You can tell Val has strong, varied opinions by the amount of players he voted for, and you can see how his greeting read was held tight from when he first made it, through D2. I feel like I should reread the specific moments, but his Thynhith hammer and final greeting vote are notable. I feel pretty strongly that these two can't be partners, based on the way they've interacted and been scum reading each other so hard, but it's one of them as RBer despite both having a self vote / "fine, lim me" moment yesterday.

[frogsfrogs]

I agree with what Thynhith said up there! I'm unsure of a lot of the same people and most suspicious of Igor and Mafmen. I think based on Igor's quick vote they likely aren't

both

scum, but either is possible? Again, don't really agree with the reasoning Mafmen brought up that Igor's just too obvious to be maf, since so many of us are inexperienced in here. Placing a vote here for now.

VOTE: igorsprite

I don't really get this. Why does the number of players dictate how valid what Mafmen (assuming Too Scummy to be Scum here) said?

Sure. I wasn't talking about the number of players, I was talking about the level of experience. "There are a lot of complete newbies in here [and I don't know igor's skill level], so I don't feel like someone acting 'too' scummy is necessarily made town. Someone who's a first timer might genuinely not know what they look like" was basically what I was saying here. That's why I voted him then.

[frogsfrogs]

Ok, looking at these guys' votes on trains that flipped town.

Val -> Thynhith

Val snipes a meta theory, in-between arguing with greeting, on Thynhith in 180. He scumreads him on the basis of Thyn seeming to have a "different vibe" to last game and allegedly making posts that are very similar to scum!Val's own in the previous game. I did not look into it or this game very much at all at the time, meta reads are a lot to digest lol, and thought it was interesting, but being more careful now I actually feel like he's misrepresenting some stuff here.

First, the scumreads for TMI point. Val links a post and says that Thynhith's early vote on MafMen was a lot like the fake scumread he gave below. Edited out the irrelevant parts, but you can read for yourself at the source if you'd like. Opening the posts by the scumread player in that game that he links, I think they're actually a hell of a lot more meaty and townie than MafMen's iso was when Thynhith voted him. See spangled's defense of his townread here, vs MafMen admitting his townread could look TMI and that he thinks Thyn and everyone who voted him was probably town. The premise of the argument here is "Thynhith is copying some of my own strategy from when I won as scum, like faking this kind of read," but Thyn's scumread on MafMen was way more strongly reasoned than scum!Val's, and, I'd say, should not look fake at that time. Val started from the premise that Thynhith was playing similar to him, thus assumes his plays are fake, and does not interrogate the quality of Thyn's posts at all. It feels forced and, in retrospect, like bait that I kind of fell for.

Spoiler:

You're saying you wouldn't get any information if FB flipped first, but why is that? If he flipped green that would exonerate spangled's "dodgy" read

Except that it wouldn't, that's my whole point. The 'dodigness' of the read isn't that it's a townread, its the fact it was such a strong townread given at the time it was. I am speculating that Spangled was able to say "yeah, FB is really towny" at the point he did because he knows for a fact that FB is town.

[...]

Put it this way. Imagine you are in the outside looking in, and I give you this iso:

The ISO

Sorry for my absence, I was either sleeping or working. On my lunch break now, but before I go back some food for thought: not reading a players post due to apathy seems worse than not reading it due to laziness. Galron, is it just Cook's posts you're apathetic towards? Why?

I'm not apathetic toward Cook's posts. I just don't feel like reading them. I guess maybe that is apathy; I don't know. Everyone else's posts are much shorter. That's got something to do with it. Cook could be open-wolfing (I have a personal bias against that term btw), but I don't know.

It seems that if anyone is wolfing (there's that term again) it up again,

I

, and everyone else, would be alerted to it. In a succinct manner ofc.

Unless that person is Cook, because how can you be alert to an open wolf if you don't feel like reading their lengthy posts? Start being more motivated, goddamn it.

hey, Facebones, you reckon DArby’s whiteknighting me a wee bit?

I mean, I guess there's a chance. I have accused people of whiteknighting in the past and been rather embarrassed about the whole ordeal afterwards though. Due to that, and because it's still early stages, I'm gonna put it down to being NAI

How come you're anxious to hear about what Thynhith makes of my entrance? Like, why him specifically?

Can you give a read on that player? If you can, how confident can you possibly be about that read?

I'm not intrested in what that read is; I just want to know if people consider giving a strong read on that basis is inside the range of reasonable responses to that ISO, without having additional pre-known information about the alignment of that player. I've given my view - that is isn't possible to give a confident read on that basis. Spangled has defended that read at 323 and avers that it is. If

other

players now tell me, "Yeah, Val, I can see why Spangled could reasonably hold that read, even if I or you don't agree with it", then I would be happier supporting a Facebones wagon, but currently I think a scum!Spangled means Facebones is much more likley to be town, lack of content aside.

Val's point about Thynhith reminding everyone about E-1 is much of the same, unreasonable if not forced. Yes, scum can make "helpful" posts and be attempting to gain trust, but the linked post is not even scum!Val reminding Thynhith that he put someone at E-1. It is scum!Val

questioning a player who just voted Thynhith

for not announcing E-1, and Thynhith later says "Thanks for the reminder, Val." Forgotten E-1 announcements happen all the time in newbie games, I assume, but Thynhith is "copying scum!Val" for it. Val is scumreading Thynhith for doing things that scum!him did, but none of the things he lists are scum behavior.

Additionally, skimming through 2080 has me seeing scum!Val as being aggressive and outspoken, much like he has here. This isn't to meta scumread him for seeming to act similarly, but it is to point out that my previous logic, that "scum wouldn't be as loud and verbose as Val is," is apparently totally wrong. He could and has done this as scum.

Val's actual Thynhith hammer happens in 360 / 362. It's a day and a half to mandatory end of day, he says he's happy where his reads are at, and the votes are 4 - Thyn 2 - Val89. The actual circumstances seem reasonable enough. Between his previous Thynhith post and the last, though, he says nothing more on his read of him and makes no attempt to question, because he was arguing with MafMen and then catboi instead. He does not follow up to make a read of Thynhith's defense of himself, like he's just happy to have the train happen. Overall :T I don't like this one very much.

Val89 -> Greeting

This is really rough and.. I actually have a hard time with scumreading it on it's own. Val is clearly genuinely very frustrated by his train, he's persuaded to not be selfvoting in 976, and then greeting is put at E-2 and announces he still has intent to selfhammer. Val takes the opportunity to vote, without comment, in 1011. Val's known to be very stubborn in his reads and he tunneled catboi and greeting the most, so even with the heightened emotions of that day & unwillingness to cooperate on other votes, this vote is certainly consistent behavior for him. He might also hate nolimming here. For scum!Val, StrangeMatter and Igor's greeting votes plus greeting being there to hammer is a miracle. Scum team gets gifted a mislim here and thus he'd absolutely make this vote, but I think town!Val might do the same. He's been hard suspicious of greeting for so long.

It

is

notable that Val has been effectively the hammer voter both times. I

did

not realize this before. He shows a propensity for pushing very hard during the day, but in the end, (opportunistically?) capping off trains and doing so with little transparency (not really reading Thyn, getting greeting to self hammer hours before EoD when everyone else is gone). I find it hard, still, to read his self vote as intimidation and a gamble, especially if he's RBer, but reexamining? I'm not actually liking what I see :X

MafMen -> Greeting

730. He's the second vote on greeting here, with Igor having voted greeting quite a while before. Val/Greeting scumteam is, well, ridiculous. :I They'd be god tier level actors if they managed to pull off all of d1's theater. I don't think his reasons for individually scumreading val or greeting are too bad here, though, so. Either scum making weird reads because they want to be open to either mislim, or a crazy theory he had as town and wasn't afraid to put it out there. What I do want to question is his read and positioning on strangematter. This pair matters a lot now, with them as a potential team, and I don't actually understand why, with the comments he makes about that slot's posts, Strange is his #1 townread? He says pseudo's posts all looked green enough, but doesn't seem all that sure on strange. In the same list, Implosion has several "very green" posts but is brought down to being neutral because he was interrogating Thyn but not voting him & apparently looked fake when he was trying to get Igor's actual night action results?? I don't get it, I'm inclined to say it feels constructed. He's not here to answer, though, and I think I've been prey to thinking "'Reads I like / understand' = town and 'Reads I don't understand' = scum" already. @_@ I'm willing to vote here today too.

[frogsfrogs]

I still don’t quite get it, so are you saying that you believe that because of how inexperienced people are, that it doesn’t mean they are newbie town?

No, no. Context: I and several other players at the time had thought igor's first few posts were scummy. His sheeping Thynhith was especially worrying. MafMen had been arguing that Igor's vote and posting style was too scummy to be scum, but I was arguing that sometimes a first-time scum player

might

actually accidentally make themselves look that scummy out of ignorance, just as much as a newbie town would.

[frogsfrogs]

And do you have mafia experience on a different site?

(I fully admit I was somewhat conf-biasing my case against you yesterday)

This is my first game in any forum mafia setting unfortunatelyyy ^^'''

[frogsfrogs]

StrangeMatter, and Igor if you flip goon. I.. think it's the same situation with MafMen's slot actually

except maybe there's a world where he and catboi are partners that have been wildly successful at distancing but not bussing?

I don't know any other configuration that makes sense..

[frogsfrogs]

I don't think igor/adante are the scumteam and I know I'm not scum. If there's only a goon in us three, not an rber, then the setup is goon/goon and igor is fakeclaiming ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Igor fakeclaiming means there isn't necessarily a scum in this pool anymore, but we're voting here today. So goon Adante or goon Val = igor partner from my pov.

[frogsfrogs]

And do you have mafia experience on a different site?

(I fully admit I was somewhat conf-biasing my case against you yesterday)

This is my first game in any forum mafia setting unfortunatelyyy ^^'''

You have experience elsewhere? face to face or chat mafia or the like? Just curious because I feel like I may have been viewing you through the entirely wrong lens here.

Some face to face + online games. Town of salem, the tiniest bit of throne of lies, misc. other hidden role games because I like them a lot.

[frogsfrogs]

I don't think igor/adante are the scumteam and I know I'm not scum. If there's only a goon in us three, not an rber, then the setup is goon/goon and igor is fakeclaiming ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Igor fakeclaiming means there isn't necessarily a scum in this pool anymore, but we're voting here today. So goon Adante or goon Val = igor partner from my pov.

isn't igor tracker? if you're not ccing tracker, why are you so sure he's fake?

I'm not shading igor and don't think he's fake. We only vote him if mechanical evidence shows up that he's lying. Check setup C2 please, it's been discussed throughout the game that it's

theoretically

a possibility.

[frogsfrogs]

I'm VT. I think we're long past anyone in here trying to cc implosion or igor.

[frogsfrogs]

Hedgey? There's only so many possible setups left imo, and I feel like I'm setting up a clear flowchart of what I'd like to do, not being wishy washy. We flip Val or Adante today in search of the RBer. If they're town then flip the other, if they're the RBer then flip you. I feel like you're killing me with a thousand needles here.

[frogsfrogs]

OH, sure. It's definitely my writing style mostly. I do a lot of that. But also it's a day one, page, like, 3 read I'm explaining, so it wasn't the most confident.

[frogsfrogs]

Is that right, and if so, have you considered which scumteams that plan loses to?

I mean, both yes and no, not explicitly. I haven't been checking numbers yet.

5v2 today, vote Val or Adante.

If town flip

, RBer is alive. They RB implosion, probably, and kill Igor.
3v2 tomorrow.
Town

needs

to flip the player not voted yesterday, barring wild new info.
> If still town, the scumteam is StrangeMatter or Catboi and Igor. They win.

> If RBer, the jk jails strangematter.
- They are the scum and the kill fails, town is 3v1 and votes strange, town win
- OR we were wrong. Implosion dies and strangematter is cleared, 2v1. Have to decide if catboi or the non-voted Val / Adante is the more likely partner to the RBer. Risky.

> If goon, the jk jails Igor, it's 3v1 and we vote him out the next day, town wins.

If RBer flip OR goon flip

today, see above but with another number. > Jail strangematter, 5v1 and vote strangematter or 4v1 and vote the next most likely partner. > Jail Igor and vote him. Town win.


Yeah, these are bets I can take, I'm happy with this path. Only way to change it would be to advocate for flipping strangematter today and keeping RBer alive for sure, lol.

[frogsfrogs]

lolol she means town faction, not specifically vt igor. do you want to take that one back?

[frogsfrogs]

ahhh I get the joke now then thanks.

[frogsfrogs]

That's hammer.

[frogsfrogs]

Hoping this is RBer! Very well could be

[frogsfrogs]

Ah. I understand if I'm the lim today. Can't help but be worried that I can't tell if it's Igor or Val though. D: Good damn game to whichever one of you it is.
I hadn't thought about scum purposely no killing, so I had super thought no death today meant Val was it, especially since Igor's correctly getting a no night action result on me now. But I guess it could be either.

[frogsfrogs]

VOTE: Val89

[frogsfrogs]

Good game everybody :''D !! I had a good time. We got torn apart by those failed kills, we shoulda went for implosion n1 apparently , but I'm actually pretty happy with how I played. This was in fact my first forum game ever and I rolled scum, so getting to where I did and MafMen and I apparently distancing fairly successfully(?) feels good. The strangematter bait was too perfect a trap.

[frogsfrogs]

As town I would have probably assumed greeting to be town for the self hammer thing, and I played it that way at first too, but it clearly didn't read that way fully to everyone.

[frogsfrogs]

Yes thanks, Micc!!