Mini 627 - Riverworld Smalltown - Over!!!

[M4yhem]

Hi Guys!

Seems like my former self was getting heat for not using his vote. I don't know why he did that; might be his personality. I, on the other hand, will be using my power as much as possible.

On that note:

Vote:Pug89 Vote:Pug89

. I'm getting catious scum vibes on him but this is mainly because of his vote on the hermit wagon. I thought the hermit wagon was completely baseless and, now that he's posting, I'm getting townie vibes from hermit. Pug's vote looks opportunistic and omgusy.

I'm finding Alabaska kind of scummy too because of his relentless bandwagonning and weak reasoning but I don't support his lynch at this time because I think we need information lynches early in the game.

Fos:Alabaska J

Even though Rishi's posts seem pretty sensible I'm getting a kind of vibe from him too. Can't back it up but

IGMEOY

Claus seems to be working at the game despite his pr which makes him look kind of townie in my eyes: it would be so easy for scum to lurk.

But I don't agree with him about Megatron/iamausername. Did a reread of just this poster and he strikes me as town. I don't agree that his comment about being nightkilled was AtoE; in fact, I'd say that the very suggestion is laughable.

I'm also confused as to why anybody thinks it's a good idea to lead the jailer. Wouldn't it be better to try to avoid any kind of clues as to who he's targetting so that scum have to secondguess him? I think it would.

armlx/cyberbob read as neutral- armlx is like alabaska in that he doesn't seem to be thinking about his vote at all but he seems slightly more sensible. Cyberbob for me could go either way.

Twomz needs to talk much more, I have no idea what to do with him.

NabakovNabakovob was pushing a bad wagon, I'd say he's scummy but not as scummy as pug.

[/stand]

[M4yhem]

Well maybe I'll give you something to say.

For example, what do you think of Pug, Twomz?

How about Alabaska- is he on the same side as you, do you think?

You wanted the double vote, so tell me, what's the best way to use it? Should I be catious or bold?

What about Claus? On a scale of one to crispy how protown is he?

[M4yhem]

I don't see it either. In this case your scumdar is 100% busted. Unless you're scum trying to set me up for a lynch, of course, in which case, expect a fight.

I also get the feeling that armlx is fishing for reasons to vote me. agree-0
disagree-0

[M4yhem]

I'm not sure you should be vigging anyone unless you think they're scum.

[M4yhem]

I guess that's true.

I'm a little concerned at the large amount of agreement re Alabaska's character. I guess it all depends on his explanation.

[M4yhem]

Why does the amount of agreement concern you?

Because if he's mafia, he should have scumbuddies disagreing/diverting attention away from him.

It feels too easy.

I know I'm biased but I think Alabaskas arguements are stupid. He's right that I'm trying to avoid playing like W!nter but he's wrong to see that as scummy; obviously no matter what my alignment I don't want you to lynch me and the way W!nter played is not the way I enjoy playing anyway.

As for his other points:
Pretty much anything I might say has been said before, so there are alway going to be people who agree with me (and people who disagree with me). I don't see why that means I'm 'trying to please them'. That seems like a baseless accusation.

It doesn't matter why the jailer comment was brought up, the point is it was an issue that was being talked about and since I had an opinion, I though I'd share it.

confused here as I see no correlation between armlx's play and mine

??? Really? Your playstyles seem extremly similar to me, you've both been hopping on and off bandwagons all day. The only difference is Armlx seems a little more rational.

I'd still prefer a Pug lynch, does noone else see Pug as scummy?

[M4yhem]

both armlx and AlabaskaJ voted for him citing that post as part of the reason for voting him.

I don't think that helps your cause

/agree

Armlx- hyberbole, I guess, but you were on the hermit wagon at least.

[M4yhem]

I don't understand why noone wants to vote Pug.

I will happily vote for anyone at all rather than no lynch but I really think Pug is quite likely mafia.

[M4yhem]

I have private thoughts on M4yhem about why he thinks I'm town, and I am keeping them "private" because, while plausible and perhaps even correct, it is all mere speculation and the logic tends to break down on serious scrutiny. I'm keeping it in mind, but I don't think sharing it will benefit anyone right now. He seemed a bit pushy on the Pug case, which makes me think he might be trying to lead the town. I need to look up Mayhem's other games to fully commit to this point, since without taking playstyle into account it's an unreliable tell at best.

See this...this really pisses me off. It's like you're accusing me of something but I can't defend myself because I don't know what it is so I end up with a black mark against me which I've no way to remove.

If you want to know why I think you're town you could always ask me, instead of trying to read my mind.

And yes, I am trying to lead the town. I think Pug is scum. I trust me and my own judgement a hell of a lot more than I trust any of you.

[M4yhem]

There's no rush to lynch, surely?

Let Claus reread.

As for me, given Pug's near total lack of defence, I'm fairly happy with my vote.

[M4yhem]

Well, you don't seem to be doing much to stay alive, that's what I really mean. You're at Lynch -1 and doing nothing to save yourself. If I was in your place, I'd be trying to find someone else for people to vote for. I'd be fighting back. You're just kind of...sitting there.

Shafted has a point re. Alabaska. Alabaska, if you have a case, you should make it now. What if you get nightkilled? (Not likely, but possible)

Shafted- why are you worried at the speed of the Pug wagon when you weren't, as far as I remember, worried about the speed of any other wagons?

You know the deadline's coming, right? Don't you think that might explain it?

[M4yhem]

Scum should have a partner saying "wait guys what about X."

NabNab and Cyberbob have both pushed other cases and weakly attacked me, the most vocal proponant of the Pugwagon. I'd say they're good candidates for partners.

You could also be trying to derail by saying 'it's moving too fast'.

[M4yhem]

[
Don't make the mistake of confusing "he's a better candidate" with "omg guys what about him ignore pug go after HIM", by the way - I have in no way opposed the Pug wagon whatsoever. I agree with it, as a matter of fact; I would have thrown my vote on it were it not for my greater happiness with my vote on iamausername. I believe I've said this before?

Yes, you have said that before.

Since it is exactly what I would say if you were wagonning a buddy of mine, I don't believe you.

[M4yhem]

Please also note my other point about having been on the iamausername wagon for longer than the Pug wagon has existed.

Irrelevant.

Also - going back to the bit you quoted again - you have failed to outline why it is not something a townie would not do.

Also irrelevant.

[M4yhem]

Shafted- your defense of pug seems to be based on his role being useful. If he's scum, his role is irrelevant.

Also, meta me; I'm always a pushy, opinionated little bastard.

[M4yhem]

I don't see anything to make me think unvoting Pug is a good idea.

[M4yhem]

No. I think deciding our lynchs based on people's powers is a bad idea.

Fos yourself.

[M4yhem]

Which page is 260 on? I'm lazy and reading all posts by Twomz doesn't help- the numbers are different.

[M4yhem]

Page 11

Thanks.

You seem to be implying that he was fence-sitting. I'm not sure I agree.

I'll decide tomorrow whether to switch or stick.

Pug89 , Alabaska J, iamausername, Twomz,- going by the votecount you're all possibilities for a deadline lynch. If you have anything to say to stop me doublevoting you, say it now.

[M4yhem]

Uh-oh. Other what?

1. He was protecting a scumbuddy

2. He was actively lurking

3. Please try again

I'm still here. I've been reading along at work and at home, but nothing has been striking me as really commentable. I'll let y'all know if this changes.

260, in case anyone else wants to read it.

[M4yhem]

I think he's saying that Twomz is a hypocrite because he said he was waiting for something to comment on and then bandwagonned. Or the other way round, I'm not sure.

[M4yhem]

'Kay, no really compelling arguements have emerged to chage my mind. I believe we can live without a confirmed innocent if we have to and I dislike making lynch choces based on role anyway.

Besides, Pug still looks scummy. My choice is then that I will stick.

[M4yhem]

'Kay, no really compelling arguements have emerged to chage my mind. I believe we can live without a confirmed innocent if we have to and I dislike making lynch choces based on role anyway.

As has been pointed out that same exact argument can be pointed at the Alabaska wagon.

Maybe so but

1. I don't find Alabaska as scummy as Pug

2. Noone is protecting Alabaska the way people are protecting Pug

3. We get information faster from lynching Pug than lynching Alabaska

Thanks, Twomz. I'd forgotton I asked you thouse questions, actually. Here's some more:
a. Is Cyberbob working with you or against you? What gives you that impression?

b. Nabnab- scummy, or misunderstood? Show your work.

c. Armlx; on a scale of one to 10, how scummy is he?

d. Are you by any chance mafia?

[M4yhem]

Oh come on, you want me to be quiet for several days?

I'm not sure I can do that.

Alright, just let me post this one time...

I'm really pleased that Pug was mafia. I'm surprised to see that Twomz was too, looks like he bussed his buddy. Since Claus was pushing on Twomz, I'm now 99% certain he's not mafia.

I'm going to be paying special attention to Cyberbob, NabNab and Shafted, who all cast doubt on the Pug wagon in their own ways. I'm also going to be looking at Armlx because the hammer on scum is a good place to find his buddy.

As for the SK, that's harder. Everyone's a suspect.

Except me. I didn't do anything last night except sleep.

Okay, shutting up now...

[M4yhem]

Sssh Armlx, no talking.

[M4yhem]

I don't really understand the night plan but since I don't have anything but a passive part to play in it, that doesn't really matter.

As I said yesterday, I think one of Cyberbob/NabNab/Shaft.ed is pug's buddy because each of them attacked me/pushed a different lynch near deadline.

I also think whoever replaces Hermit should be questioned closely, since he didn't vote in the end.

I'm going to vote

Cyberbob

for seemingly protecting Pug yesterday. If you need the quotes, I'll fetch them.

[M4yhem]

Erm-

Vote: Cyberbob

for clarity.

[M4yhem]

He'd have to fake a tracking, wouldn't he...

it was fairly obvious that you had poisoned Alabaska, so he's not off the hook. I'll keep that in mind though.

[M4yhem]

But he wouldn't be motivated if he killed the motivator, would he?

I don't really understand.

Also, don't both actions have to be the same if you're motivated?

[M4yhem]

Right.

So you're saying, any intelligent scum would kill Rishi to stop him claiming, use the other kill to kill whoever and the claim to track someone like you, whose actions were easy to guess?

I get it. I'm not happy with Cyberbob (bad vibes) but I'll

Unvote, Vote: NabkovNabkov

for attacking me and pushing a different lynch while Pug was going down.

[M4yhem]

While we are asking setup questions...

CuriousKarmaDog

- if I vote for Claus, does he get my ability?

[M4yhem]

Okay, so my reason not to vote for Cyberbob is gone.

Unvote, Vote Cyberbob

[M4yhem]

Do you think Cyber is that scummy relative to Shaft/NN that the loss of an info role right now is worth it? I realize this is bringing roles into the issue, but just saying.

Based on gut feeling, yeah.

I already said I won't dely lynching anyone because of thier role.

I will have a proper case once I reread pug/twomz and shafted/cyberbob/NabNab/thehermit tomorrow.

Your case on NabNab looks pretty good, we'll see what he says in response.

[M4yhem]

Here you go Rishi; I've been rereading the scum and these are all the possible connections I could find:

Pug hasn't contributed a whole lot. I'm also concerned about how freely he asked for advice on how to use his night action. Sounds like, "Hey guys, what would be the most townie thing for me to do?"

Or I don't want to squander my abilities since they are only one-shots and I wanted other opinions. I haven't made a decision yet. I will keep the suggestions in mind but I'm ultimately going to make my own decision. I feel this is an extremely weak excuse. I don't like it that you are discouraging discussion of night actions. Obviously the final decision shouldn't be posted in thread, but discussion could help the town.

Vote: TheHermit

This

could

be distancing but it probably clears the Hermit.

I did a reread of these player's post in isolation:
Claus: Not much to go on here because of the post restriction, but he does show some criticism of TheHermit, which I don’t disagree with.

Cyberbob: I don’t like his early post about preferring quick wagons to the random voting stage. He does make a point of differentiating between quick wagons to quick lynches but one could easily lead to the other. Also, that early in the game any wagon is likely going to be based on very little.

Twomz: Not much to comment on. He did bring up the possibility of a NL, which normally I would be against, but this game is a little different than most games.

Winter:

On preview: it seems that you, armlx, are the only one to attack my random vote of no lynch. Despite not offering a random vote yourself, or making a move to imply that you believed we were out of, or never began a random voting stage.

I actually think a random vote of no lynch is strange, I don’t think I’ve seen that before. I don’t think it’s necessarily scummy but definitely strange.

He's very wishy washy here so it's hard to read much into it but he is vaguely critical of both my predessecor and Bob. Town points for Bob here, I guess.
Slightly supportive of Claus and notice how he includes his buddy and gives him a neutral read.

I reread Megatron. He's really indecisive when asked directly if he found anyone suspicious and most of his post have to do with game mechanics and not about his suspicions. However, iamausername seems to be doing much better in this regard.

This looks like a case against iamausername when you first read it but actually it's an extremely weak defense. On that basis

Fos: iamausername

.

Pug's vote for Alabaska at the end is I think, a neutral read- lynching him wouldn't kill Alabaska so Pug might have bussed a buddy. Or not.

Twonz:

In other words,

unvote, vote: Megatron

I agree w/ Nabakov.

I'm not sure what this means. We know Twonz was not afraid to vote for his buddies and this was early in the day...but he could just be taking advantage of a townie.

And as long as alabaska is around, shaft.ed has a good place to hide (although, the point is moot of shaft.ed is scum... /shrug).

Possible concern for shaft.ed? Or just idle talk?

How about Alabaska- is he on the same side as you, do you think?

Not sure, ask me again tomorrow, I'll probably have a better idea then.

Deliberate Wifom.

What about Claus? On a scale of one to crispy how protown is he?

Claus is trying to post content beyond his restriction enough that I think he is relatively protown right now. Then again, it could be a ploy... but I doubt it. On a scale of 1 - 10, 10 being most protown, I'd put him at a 7.5-8.

Does this implicate Claus? It’s possible but since I lean towards town for Claus I’d say it’s more likely that Twomz was just budding up to Claus/echoing what others had said.

[M4yhem]

I know a promised a case on Bob but I'm not in the mood for proper analysis today.

Instead, two questions:

If Twomz was the one chosen to do the killing, would that mean the kill wouldn't go through if he died?

Since Hermit was jailblocked, does that make him suspect number one?

[M4yhem]

If we think shaft.ed is mafia, wouldn't it be better to just lynch him rather than kill Alabaska for no good reason?

[M4yhem]

That really leave NN and M4yh3m to lynch. I feel NN's denouncement of Shaft.ed's Pug plan was pretty solid, and M4yh3m is really dangerous to have alive late game. Very slightly so, I'm definitely willing to swap if theres a compelling reason to.

Unvote, Vote M4yh3m

Compelling reason? I restarted the Pug wagon and pushed for his lynch until he was dead. I'd say that gives me a reduced risk of being mafia (from an outsider's point of view- I know I'm town). You can't really say the same for NabNab.

Also, I'm only 'dangerous' if I'm on the other team. As a protown role, I'm a valuable asset to the town in endgame and I don't understand why you would want to get rid of that.

As for Cyberbob's results, why would he lie if he was mafia? He wants us to find the serial killer and if Twomz was sent to do the killing, there wouldn't be any missing results to explain.

I really don't like your eagerness to kill people, Armlx. Why kill Alabaska? Yeah, some people have been suspicious of him but that's true of several other people as well. Shouldn't we be trying to minimize the townie deaths here? It seems like your plan will just accelerate us into the endgame and I'm really not comfortable with that.

[M4yhem]

Directed by you, Armlx. Not us. I don't want you to kill Alabaska. I'd prefer you to track tonight.

You say Alabaska is possible scum- so are you! Not SK, maybe, but still. Unless you have a compelling case against Alabaska, you can't just kill him.

And if you think I'm likely to die anyway, it makes little sense to kill me.

What makes you think I'm the serial killer?

[M4yhem]

I can't help thinking that any plan that involves bandwagoning me is deeply flawed. It seems like you're giving the scum a license to kill off townies.

Much as I don't like this plan, I will

Unvote, Vote:NabkovNabkov

. If it's him or me, I know which I prefer. I suggest you all do the same. He is much more likely to be mafia than me, his support for lynching pug was ambigous at best while I was absolutley commited to lynching Pug, despite opposition from several sources.

We're both as likely to be serial killer but noone has given any reason why I should be serial killer rather than Nab and the SK is in trouble tonight anyway. I'm happy to be jailed/tracked tonight but lynching me after I played so well yesterday seems highly unfair.

[M4yhem]

What if Bob is mafia and Armlx is the SK, Bob is lying about tracking Armlx and Armlx isn't correcting him because he's been falsely cleared? It seems like the best plan a SK could come up with would be a plan that kills as many people as possible.

Also, the massive flaw is that you're lynching me even though I've played as close to perfect as I ever get. Seriously, I find a scum, I get him lynched and what's my reward? You want to lynch me, the very next day, for no goddamn reason that I can see.

I hope you lose. I hope the SK and the mafia carve you up into equal sized portions.
I'm leaving town and moving to a castle far away from here.

[M4yhem]

Fail as the SK wants to lynch scum too.

Statistically speaking, I'm far more likely to be a townie than the SK and since I haven't dropped any tells (not that anyone has mentioned, anyway) I'd say it's you who fails, for lynching a likely protown player just because you're scared of what their role can do.

Also, I'm less likely to be scum than Nab is, if you take both types of scum into account. So, you fail again.

[M4yhem]

Who are we supposed to be lynching/vigging other then you, NN, or alabaska? One of the info roles?.

The mafia and the SK. Fuck the roles. If we'd gone by roles, Pug would have been let off the hook.

How about we lynch NabNab, kill Alabaska and jail/track me so that I can prove I'm town and I don't have to die at all?

[M4yhem]

And how about we lynch Alabaska, kill you, and jail/track NN to prove that and keep a more useful role around?

No. Forget roles, talk about alignment please. You are happy to let Claus off the hook for townie behaviour, how is my behaviour any less townie? Nobody has given a reason to lynch

me

, it's all about lynching my role. But my role isn't dangerous unless it's in scum hands, which it isn't. Please, if you are going to lynch/vig me, make a case for why I am scum, a case I can answer. Don't just base your strategy on the role which was picked before alignments were given out.

The same goes for killing Nab or Alabaska, in fact. Just because there's lots of action at night doesn't mean we can't just neglect the day game.

Now, what happens if your plan means we lynch a townie today and then four die tonight?

[M4yhem]

*doesn't mean we

can

just

[M4yhem]

m4yh3m, you attacked Pug after he was already pointed at. Claus has actively scum hunted through a PR all game.

I got Pug lynched. That wasn't exactly easy. And I've scum-hunted as much as I can- I'd be a lot more prolific if all I had to do was post "178- bussing?" now and then.

Also, I am showing why you are the optimal lynch. Evidence you are scum is not needed.

Of course it's needed! You want to vig Alabaska because 'people suspect him'- that's how you decided to kill Shafted too. So if you want to kill me, you still need a proper reason. We're still playing mafia, after all.

If Claus is scum it can be dealt with easier then the double vote or absorbing 2 lives.

But he either is or isn’t scum. Preparing for hypothetical situations is all very well but at most 2 of these roles are scum. How about dealing with reality for a while?

No, I mean in terms of the fact that pretty much everyone sees him as town (except M4yhem, but whether or not he's simply grasping at straws remains to be seen).

I still see him as town just

not as townie as me

. He’s 88%, I’m 100%. To me, anyway.

You’re 45%, fyi.

Can we lynch M4yhem please? He's totally the SK.

Proof or bite me.

I'm coming around to this based on his reaction.

I really hate the meta that having a survival instinct is scummy.
I have certain expectations of my fellow townies. I understand and expect that if I play badly I will be lynched; however, I also expect that if I play well then I won’t be lynched, at least until I screw up. I played well yesterday. I did exactly what I’m supposed to do as a townie. I don’t think I screwed up today.

So naturally, I’m a little upset with the town currently.

Besides, you can’t blame me for being less than enthusiastic about the plan. It totally excludes me. Maybe we’ll win but I’ll be unable to help. And there’s no point in doing analysis because I’m only allowed to choose between two people and it doesn’t matter how scummy they are, only if their roles are dangerous.

So I’m sticking with Nabnab, you can all do what the hell you like and call me when my opinion actually matters again.

[M4yhem]

Mayhem, do you realize you signed up for a smalltown game? This kind of thing can happen in smalltowns.

I've never played a smalltown before. I replaced in because the flavor looked cool and there was an acceptable number of pages to read.

[M4yhem]

Nab's away, Rishi.

It's true that not everybody in favor of the plan can bescum but they can all be wrong/confused.

[M4yhem]

Only when it conflicts with the interests of the town AKA finding scum.

It never does. Fighting to stop you lynching me benefits the town as well as myself. I happen to know that any other lynch is more likely to kill scum than mine.

Shafted- I have analysed the plan. I don't like it. It relys on people I don't trust holding all the power, large numbers of townies potentially dying without any real discussion and lynches being directed by armlx.

I'd also like to point out that if Twonz did the kill last night, armlx and iamusername are not cleared of being mafia, even if they were tracked.

Also, the scum know what every night role is going to do in advance. Depending on who they are, they can disrupt the plan by killing the right people.

[M4yhem]

Bob- It's true, so why shouldn't I say it? I'm trying to explain my point of view.

I'm about 98% sure you're the sk, fyi.

Nab- If you're town, bother. If you're scum, roll over and die.

iamusername- Okay, but armlx isn't cleared.

[M4yhem]

Alright look, I don't care anymore. Just lynch me already, will you? I've lost any desire to help you win, I just want out of here already.

Unvote, Vote:M4yhem

[M4yhem]

Why don't you hammer, Bob? Do it, do it now!

[M4yhem]

Sorry, too slow.

Unvote, Vote:Cyberbob

[M4yhem]

Whatever.

So why can't we lynch bob? He's not cleared is he? He could be mafia if Twonz did the kill, he could be SK regardless.

[M4yhem]

Most people in the game aren't cleared. Do you have anything on me besides your confidence measured in percentages?

Your general attitude.

The fact that you attacked me when I made my case against him and were slow to get on his wagon.

Your role pm.

How is he fucked Armlx? Fake tracking will be pretty easy tonight since we all know what the power roles are doing and it's not like the other scum will tell us if he gets it wrong.

[M4yhem]

Iamusername is the only confirmed no-scum.

You're not SK, neither's the sweatpantsninja but you could both be mafia.

That leaves Claus, Shafted, Alabaska, Nabnab, bob, rishi.

Tomorrow we'll have you, bob, rishi, claus, Iamusername, thesweatpantninja and me (except two of these people might be killed.)

If there's a mafia kill and a sk kill, me 'n whoever else is roleblocked, according to the plan, will be confirmed.

Even so, that's only three confimed as far as I can see.

Unvote, Vote:NabNab

. To get it over with.

[M4yhem]

M4yh3m is so scum. Honestly, nice pre-emptive hammer there.

That said, its pretty irrel. The plan just blows the game to pieces.

Dude, what?

Even if I had hammered what would be the problem? It's not like Claus can do much analysis and NabNab's dead whatever he says so what is there to wait for? Let's go to night, get me cleared so I don't have to put up with your harassment anymore and then win the game.

[M4yhem]

I'm happy with my vote at the moment.

Bob- I don't know, I'm kind of enjoying myself.

[M4yhem]

Unvote

to allow for plan adjusment.

Don't vig me, for christ sake, I'm not mafia! I pushed hard for Pugs lynch despite strong opposition. Vig one of the people who were against lynching Pug- shaft.ed, cyberbob.

[M4yhem]

Thank god! Hallelujah!

If the mafia no-kills we just do a shitload of post-by-post analysis and catch them that way. We got Pug, we can catch whoever-it-is too.

[M4yhem]

Happy with TSPN being vigged. Hermit jailed last night + no mafia kill= circumstancial evidence.

Since we have a new plan,

Vote: NabkovNabkov

[M4yhem]

No, Plan A:

shaft.ed hides w/Alabaska
armlx vigs Alabaska
Rishi motivates username
username jails M4yhem & Claus
TSPN investigates Twomz
Cyberbob tracks Rishi

Not that it matters since there's no reason for Nab to lie about being SK, but still.

[M4yhem]

My point is that I'm not more likely SK than anybody.

I'll try, Shaft.ed

[M4yhem]

Would anyone object to a hammer now?

No. In fact, I'll hug you.

[M4yhem]

Yay!

Well done armlx and everyone else.

So Hermit was blocked; that explains it all.

[M4yhem]

Thanks Bob, that's gentlemanly of you.
I know I was a bit of an ass, and took the game too personally. For that; I apologize.

Luckily it all worked out in the end.

Thanks for letting me play, Karmadog. I liked the flavour, you found replacements quickly and did everything you were supposed to do. Cheers.