Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

Hi

Yo I'm drunk af.

[VP Baltar]

Hurts you got blowed up.


On alcohol: IPAs, then a lager, then tequila

[VP Baltar]

Bingle is scum. A50 is town.

Oh shit A50 is in this game. NOICE

[VP Baltar]

IPAs

Scum claim, tbh.

Absolute psyco

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: bingle

Fair

[VP Baltar]

You haven’t lived until you’ve had a car mob of fireball and 151.

Of course, most people don’t live long after either.

Definitely have done these things in my 20s. I'm almost 40! Eek

[VP Baltar]

I am now drinking a stout in a bathtub. Look what your careless hands have wrought.

Apologies

[VP Baltar]

Christ

[VP Baltar]

Hi to all who said hi!

Vote Iconeum

If I was a double voter VP would get my other vote.

Go on....


Pooky, on a scale of 1-10, how much do you want to fight me after Hidden Temple?

Same question to gamma.

[VP Baltar]

mod, I will most likely be VLA Friday evening PST through Sunday night

[VP Baltar]

vp, i can fight you if those two aren't up for it, if you want

We are day 3 fighters.

Here is how it will play out:

I'll be super town.
You will get paranoid day 3.
We will fight, but finally come to the conclusion we are both town.
One of us will be NKed.

[VP Baltar]

oh yeah right, i have to gladiate you if we both survive to day 3, i forgot about that

also, hmmmmm. you're saying i will get paranoid of you on day 3. but whenever we were both town, i got killed before day 3. you're planning on keeping me alive and trying to pocket me this game, huh?

pedit: @vp

Is that true? Feel like there were a couple where we made it to day 3. Didn't Jungle Oligarchy go that long? (Although I replaced in)

vp, i can fight you if those two aren't up for it, if you want

We are day 3 fighters.

Here is how it will play out:

I'll be super town.
You will get paranoid day 3.
We will fight, but finally come to the conclusion we are both town.
One of us will be NKed.

Damn lucky you, i am elimmed day 1 mostly!

Who are you?

[VP Baltar]

Is that true? Feel like there were a couple where we made it to day 3. Didn't Jungle Oligarchy go that long?

nope. i died n2 in jungle oligarchy and in that mini normal where you were a friendly neighbour, and n1 in that other mini normal.

i did keep spectating jungle oligarchy pretty closely after i died though, so it does feel a bit longer than two days for me.

Well there, solved for datisi. Yet him if he lives and I die

[VP Baltar]

we all hypoclaim a cop target d2 before doing anything else so that if there’s a cop we still get the info.

I'm dumb at mechanics. Explain the logic here for me more.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
Bingle is town.

Enchant is maybe scum.
VOTE: enchant

@penguin - what was your favorite part of that votecount?

[VP Baltar]

I’m not rlly getting similar vibe to HoS_S from enchant rn + think he’s more likely to get sussed very early D1 as town based on the NEP game I played

I can kinda see it

These are both about enchant, right?

[VP Baltar]

Bingle is town.

could you elaborate on this claim

Found his explanation of optimal town play related to the roles to be authentic in trying to simply explain what he saw as the best moves for town.

[VP Baltar]

due to this I will be consuming substances tonight
so everyone get excited for drunk/high/aggressive cakez coming soon

We can keep this trend alive. Someone needs to carry the torch each night

[VP Baltar]

baltar, have you ever played a single game with bingle

Nope. Going on first impressions here. Is this a thing he always does that I'm reading wrong?

[VP Baltar]

Alrighty, noted.

[VP Baltar]

Bingle is still town though. My authenticity meter is good. Don't be jealous

[VP Baltar]

only scum is lazy

Lol on this though

[VP Baltar]

And Enchant getting pressure like this early I think is town-indicating for him ngl

Wouldn't the peeps doing the pressuring be more likely to be scum then?

[VP Baltar]

Bingle is still town though. My authenticity meter is good. Don't be jealous

I'm almost tempted to policy bingle just to see if Baltar is right

See, you clearly lied to me on my fight question.

[VP Baltar]

Enchant seems to enjoy being scum more and as such makes it harder to wagon him when he’s scum, he’s more passive about it as town I think (I can’t rlly substantiate this)

So you're saying if he was scum, you think he'd be posting more and getting after people as opposed to doing the current nothing?

[VP Baltar]

See, you clearly lied to me on my fight question.

I mean I'm always up for a fight if I'm on main acc but skitter is an angel and I am not going to embarrass her by getting into a random fight lol

We prolly gonna fight eventually, but I'll respect your domestic partnership for now

[VP Baltar]

why r u so obsessed with fighting with me lol

Bc I luv u

[VP Baltar]

Also i think cakez is probably town

Tell me more

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Fun and Games

Serious vote?

[VP Baltar]

I thought "Slight ping" was sort of joke.

Are you typically this useless on D1?

[VP Baltar]

Imo if i had gun i would shot Sleepless Assassin.

Why?

[VP Baltar]

Skirts has felt very reactive and off this game and I kind of want to spend some time talking reads there, but I don’t know when I’ll be available to real time talk.

Can you cite some other examples where you think skitter has been reactive?

I'll admit the argument you're making feels very narrow, but I don't have experience with either of you. The push on Gamma felt legitimate to me since I also felt a twinge about those Gamma posts.

[VP Baltar]

Now I need to fake some reads, don't I??

OK..

Almost50
VP Baltar
Bingle
Fun and Games (skitter30 & PookyTheMagicalBear)
PenguinPower
Datisi

Then everyone else

Hah, I’m the highest priority other than VP in monkeys fake reads. Clearly that means I’m his favorite.

Second favorite

[VP Baltar]

why do people SR dats, this feels like real thought process

people scumread me?

This.

Also, where's this dragon at?

[VP Baltar]

Do you think that isn’t accurate? Why?

I'm a pretty blank slate on the F&G slot at the moment, so I was just curious why you were having a reaction there.

Sounds like you're going on a vibe rather than specifics

[VP Baltar]

your Enchant push feels scum-motivated to me because he just looks like limbait

Also, where's this dragon at?

going by the european time, he should've been here about 8-9 hours ago until now. so either a really busy day, or the dragon is afraid of me.

and I don't like this shade casting at Ico

Why's it shade from dats and not from me?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dunn

Legit think there are two scum in (Dunn, Gamma, enchant, Ico)

Game is moving too fast and they can't keep with the pace. Sleeper scum in the actives.

[VP Baltar]

Strong reaction to not being really pressured.

Vote Dunn and I'll let you live

[VP Baltar]

VP how do you see me as keeping pace better than those you listed when of those you listed only Dunn has less posts than me? Do you think Not_Mafia is keeping pace?

Post count is not what I mean when I say keeping pace

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: VP Baltar
I see no reason to bow to you here.
And yes this means I retract the TR on VP

Flip this after Dunn flips scum

[VP Baltar]

VP how do you see me as keeping pace better than those you listed when of those you listed only Dunn has less posts than me? Do you think Not_Mafia is keeping pace?

Post count is not what I mean when I say keeping pace

Ok but my question still applies on Gamma or Dunn vs Not_Mafia with keeping pace.

1) have you played with NM before? 2) if yes, are you being real?

[VP Baltar]

VP how do you see me as keeping pace better than those you listed when of those you listed only Dunn has less posts than me? Do you think Not_Mafia is keeping pace?

Post count is not what I mean when I say keeping pace

Ok but my question still applies on Gamma or Dunn vs Not_Mafia with keeping pace.

1) have you played with NM before? 2) if yes, are you being real?

Yes and yes. Do you think he's keeping pace better than Gamma or Dunn? If you didn't include him because of meta, why did you include enchant?

I don't know enchant. This is about being engaged with a competent player list.

NM is never engaged with any player list. NM gets resolved through night actions.

[VP Baltar]

It’s weird that you’re on the list over pengy

Question though, does penguin usually play like this? I assumed so since no one is commenting on it.

[VP Baltar]

Like contextually that post is clearly not a “look at activity overview, bottom half is scummy” post or eepless would have definitely made the cut. It’s weird that you’re on the list over pengy at the very least, but saying he’s complaining the game is too fast is a weird ass take, especially to 180 a read for.

Him saying I’m struggling to keep up is also a weird ass take!

Not struggling to keep up as in not being around. I think your play is not very dynamic at this point and you're not really pushing anyone or engaging in any interesting way. You're background noise in the game.

My general theory on games with experienced player lists is that scum tend to be more cautious and it takes them more time to find their strategy and theory toward victory. That means more cautious play early on while they are still figuring out what's "safe" to push on D1 and what's going to lead to backlash from people who may attack over subtle issues.

[VP Baltar]

anyway, what makes you think there can't be all scum in that group? any idea who the deepwolf would be?

Mostly think it can't be all the scum because I'm not that good.

And yes this is flashbacks big time!

[VP Baltar]

Btw, I'm dead serious about Gamma here. Not gonna say why in details, but he knows as well as I that this is a scumtell of his.

I'm not opposed to this. You can't say in detail, but can you state something in general why you'd prefer Gamma over dunn?

[VP Baltar]

Mostly think it can't be all the scum because I'm not that good.

fair enough

what makes you put iconeum in there?

Same reason for all of them. Lack of free flowing response to the game. More reactionary than active engagement. Ico is a tougher case because he has been busy and gone it seems

[VP Baltar]

Like, earlier I did kinda lie.. well.. not exactly a lie.. but I told "not all the truth". My complete readlist looked like:

Almost50
VP Baltar
Bingle
Fun and Games (skitter30 & PookyTheMagicalBear)
PenguinPower
Datisi


Not_Mafia
SirCakez
Sleepless Assassin
Iconeum
Enchant

Dunnstral


Gamma Emerald

Creepily similar reads list is creepy. I'd probably place Datisi higher. And penguin in null.

[VP Baltar]

I'd probably place Datisi higher.

What's the question? I'm trusting my gut and sorting you as town at this moment.

[VP Baltar]

the question isfor you to elaborate if you can.

Just going by feel mostly. I don't think I actually have experience with you as scum, do I?

[VP Baltar]

baltar, i'm gonna give you 5 minutes to come back to your senses, then we can try again.

Let's skip ahead and say I'm not going to do that

[VP Baltar]

Ie, I don't have time to go back through old games, so refresh my memory.

[VP Baltar]

so do you mind explaining to me how you acknowledged my reference to that game here (the game where you pushed dunn early and i had to make up nonsense to get him out alive), but a few hours later you apparently have no memory of playing with scum!me?

Haha, you were scum in that game?

I just remembered nailing Dunn early and everybody fighting me on it.

Well there ya go.

[VP Baltar]

i spilled blood, sweat, and tears over that game? and you tell me you don't even remember i was scum in it? my fucking god

It's coming back to me now of course!

Keep in mind, I am old and I haven't thought about mafia in like 8 months because I was on a work project.

[VP Baltar]

11 months. My last game was in Dec. 2020 apparently

[VP Baltar]

not sure where you're getting december 2020, since our last game ended around late april or early may this year...

anyway, if your memory is now refreshed, mind giving an update on your read of me?

I thought hidden temple was my last game?

What I've learned in this exchange is that I will only need to message you in the future if I need details about my play history.

As far as my read, I don't see how that game should change my gut read on you here. Are you suggesting I should be suspicious of you because Dunn is showing the same scum tendencies in this game?

You should also not misconstrue me having a gut town read on you as being like TOWN READ on you. It's Day 1. We are operating 100% on instinct and intuition here.

[VP Baltar]

Although this is exactly the kind of reactionary response I'd expect you to make to a town read if you were town lol

[VP Baltar]

I am old

38 is old??? What am I to you?? ANCEINT??

It all feels old after 35.

I consider you a brother in this fight against the dying of the light

[VP Baltar]

I feel old at 31. Like when I stand up I don't know what's louder, my groaning or my bones cracking.

We accept you as a provisional member of the Olds. A few more years and you'll be in the inner circle. (There is IcyHot)

[VP Baltar]

in which baltar immediately pushed back on luca's townread on me, saying that it's way too early for it.

I honestly didn't remember the game, but let's say to steel man your argument, this information had been in my mind.

The point around Lucas Town read came about 300 posts in that game.

We are now around 600 here, so that is around double the information for me to go on in my feelings toward you. Second to that point, I have already said this is a day 1 read and is not the equivalent of me hard town reading you like we did in Jungle oligarchy or something.

It's kind of silly to think I should be super paranoid about you forever because I lost to you once as scum. Of course the game directly after that I am going to be super on guard about my own biases. Doesnt mean that paranoia is a life long affliction or that I didn't learn from those mistakes.

[VP Baltar]

And it makes sense to have paranoia 2 weeks after playing with scum-you, not having paranoia about a game he doesn't remember happening makes sense as well

Exactly this.

Unless you're compressing space time, you're comparing apples and oranges here.

[VP Baltar]

We should still yeet Dunn today BTW.

[VP Baltar]

It's kind of silly to think I should be super paranoid about you forever because I lost to you once as scum. Of course the game directly after that I am going to be super on guard about my own biases. Doesnt mean that paranoia is a life long affliction or that I didn't learn from those mistakes.

of course, i wouldn't expect you to have paranoia about me in every single game we play forever. but even then, it's such a stark contrast. i'd expect you to pick up on some of my meta tells and learn from your mistakes, but i just have a feeling i'm not really seeing it being applied here?

As I stated above, I think you're comparing two events that are very distance in time and circumstances from each other.

I don't really know what to say about a game I didn't even remember.

Like, you're trying to say my meta is I'm paranoid of you....but that is not really how I play this game in general. You're a good player for sure, but so is basically everyone is this game. Does that mean I shouldn't get gut reads on people based on the play I see in front of me?

I also meant it when I said I'll know you're scum if you continue to live too long. So I guess I'm just not worrying myself too much at this moment if my initial reaction to your play is fully accurate or not.

[VP Baltar]

i was mostly interested in the "i learned from those mistakes" part, but i might have misunderstood what you meant by it. after all, me usually getting killed as town is a thing. fine, you get to live for now.

By that, I mean understanding when it feels like you're being manipulative in your approach to the game or asking earnest questions.

I don't think I'm an expert on the mysteries of datisi, but you're probably the person I've played with the most consistently since coming back to the site in 2019. So at least I have some baseline to reference when I feel a twinge of suspicion.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I'm signing off for weekend VLA. I may still check on my phone, but I'm guessing I'll have some catching up to do Sunday when I get back.

[VP Baltar]

I don't recommend eliminating me

Who do you recommend eliminating?

[VP Baltar]

Oh boy.

[VP Baltar]

PenguinPower

Especially this. What's your thought on why Penguin?

[VP Baltar]

PenguinPower

Especially this. What's your thought on why Penguin?

Well why wasn't he included in your post calling out people who "can't keep up"? Have you seen their iso?

Whataboutisms don't answer my question to you

[VP Baltar]

Boring Iso as I've said

Why is that scummy?

[VP Baltar]

Boring Iso as I've said

Why is that scummy?

Isn't this why you voted me?

If you're going to take this angle I expect an unvote.

Lol now. You know I've busted you on this as scum before.

The fact you are making your vote about me shows that your vote is not genuine

[VP Baltar]

Opens game after day and a half gone:

Scummy
Dunn
GE
VP
Fun and Games

Oh well this should be entertaining.

It'll take me a minute to catch up this morning because I have some work to finish, but I can't wait to see how me and my scum reads are teammates.

[VP Baltar]

it's a very shallow and general binning of like 4? players?

[VP Baltar]

I've skimmed. I'll put up detailed responses in a bit.

Gamma having a one sided conversation with me while I was gone and taking pot shots doesn't look great.

Also, the pressure dissipating on Gamma and Dunn as soon as I was away looks suspicious. Shenanigans are afoot.

[VP Baltar]

do you think i should be townreading you, vp?

You can have whatever read you want on me. I think it is illogical to put me in a scumpile with dunn/Gamma.

Those theories of the game are in direct conflict with each other. Or at least they would appear to be if i was in your shoes.

Seems a bit contrived.

[VP Baltar]

do you think i should be townreading you, vp?

You can have whatever read you want on me. I think it is illogical to put me in a scumpile with dunn/Gamma.

Those theories of the game are in direct conflict with each other. Or at least they would appear to be if i was in your shoes.

Seems a bit contrived.

So Fun and Games is equally bad with their readslist because they have me as scum *with* Dunn, whom I want yeeted today?

I haven't looked for associatives between you and Dunn yet. I will say that F&G hasn't struck me as super suspicious to this point. I saw you were making some kind of case against them in the last few pages. I'll give that a careful look when I do a detailed catchup post in a few hours.

[VP Baltar]

We need a new wagon. Anyone wanna do Iconeum with me?

Curious why you felt we needed a new wagon here, and why you were asking for support rather than just making a case and trying to start one yourself?

PenguinPower

Especially this. What's your thought on why Penguin?

Well why wasn't he included in your post calling out people who "can't keep up"? Have you seen their iso?

Coming back to this: This post from Dunn strikes me as extraordinarily scummy. I asked why he had Penguin as a top suspect, and Dunn immediately deflects and tries to make the post about my positions. That's a huge alarm bell. There's no real reason as town in that situation to try deflection rather than answer a very straightforward question.

Boring Iso as I've said

Why is that scummy?

Isn't this why you voted me?

If you're going to take this angle I expect an unvote.

Second time he tries to deflect when I'm asking him about his vote. The fact that people (even those on his wagon) just let this pass without comment is crazy.

VOTE: Gamma

what made you switch your vote away from dunn?

No competing wagon against Dunn and he was the closest.

Can you give me your philosophy here a little bit? Do you think we should yeet one of Dunn or Gamma today? Does it matter to you which?

Boring Iso as I've said

Why is that scummy?

Isn't this why you voted me?

If you're going to take this angle I expect an unvote.

Lol now. You know I've busted you on this as scum before.

The fact you are making your vote about me shows that your vote is not genuine

"This" being what? And again I ask, do you have an idea of what I play like as town?

I'm not saying you can lurk as town, but there is more than that. When you are here, you aren't engaging or adding to the discussion. You're prod dodging and in the limited exchanges I've seen from you, you're not even directly answering questions. That's scum indicative. There's a difference between doing that and lurking.

On top of that, you bullshit soft claim ... which is not something any townie thinking ahead would do in that situation under what was moderate pressure at best.

Um I think this is pretty important and also in that case Bingle’s objection actually seems pretty relevant? And I seriously forget where I said that but how one you’re only just now using it when we’ve played several times pretty recently with no mention of it, or attempts to bait me into exhibiting that tell?

I agree that my question seems pretty relevant given that A50 was voting you for blowing a little thing that didn't matter out of proportion and my question was whether the fact that you were making a big deal out of what seemed like a pretty easy to clarify misunderstanding.

I disagree that that negatively impacts the strength of his case on you, and in fact think it strengthens it.

Bingle, since you seem to know what this tell was A50 called on Gamma, do you mind breaking this down for me a little more. I'm finding it a little hard to follow. Can you walk me through what you're seeing here?

--------

The Bingle/F&G exchange on pg29 reads like TvT to me. A few not so generous interpretations on each side, but both seem to be trying to understand the other in the end.

---------------------

I still feel like aside from VP my earlier townblocking attempt were kinda solid
cakez and enchant are hard town for me at the very least

The first of the gamma potshots while I was away. This was after he beetlejuiced into the thread when FG & Bingle disagreement turned to a vote on Gamma.

-----------------

Unvote, Vote Gamma

This is better than Dunn. 732 feels more like someone who feels they have no value in this game once they're gone. I don't want to say survivalistic because it feels more like giving up but... I'm trying to think how to phrase this. Just the lack of any kind of "if I die do this" or "let me post some final reads" just feels like he thinks he's going down so his game is over. If that makes sense? It's hard to put words to it.

Coming back here, this stinks to high heaven to me. 1) There is no real explanation why Dunn is a bad wagon, just a desire to deflate the wagon. 2) SA was trying to feel out an Ico wagon in his previous post, but when no one bites he jumps on Gamma, where the momentum was starting to shift at this point. Very high Dunn-SA partner equity, which improving forecasts perhaps for Gamma.

Sa gamma wasnt close to dying when you made that post

~ skitter

Also agree with F&G pressing on SA here.

also don't think SA is nulltown

Where would you place SA in your reads?



---

Ok, I'm going to break this into two posts so it's not a giant wall. Part 2 coming in a min.

[VP Baltar]

Penguin --- what made you decide to start taking a more active role and asking questions at this point in the day? Not complaining, but I just sort of assumed you were going to lurk most of the day and give us stuff on D2. Curious why you shifted styles around 30 pages in.

i'm not digging my dunn vote anymore but also i am not digging anything else - someone try to sell me on something please

What exactly changed wrt to Dunn for you?

i'm not sure i see what about his approach there makes him obvtown

Should I be obvtown to you by now?

penguin is penguin
not a fan of the slot, but afaik there's not much use pushing him on day one since he usually just like, doesn't do much, no? so he's generally a wait and see for me

Seems like he was posting notably more by the time you made this post. Why throw your hands in the air here?

this is what baltar originally said, and i do think this can easily be understood as "they're lurking / not keeping up with all of the content" so. yeah i don't think gamma looks that bad here at all. (and now i'm reminded just *how much* i originally disliked that case...)

While it's true one could have interpreted that original posting as being about post volume, it was very quickly clarified when I was asked. So, as far as I can tell, your interpretation here is completely wrong.

Every single person I mentioned was being reactive to the thread and not actively pursuing original inquiries or trying to move the game at that point. THIS was the point I was making. In a game with many competent players, it can take scum a minute to feel comfortable and find a path forward. Until that path is found, scum tend to be more reactive and hesitant.

You may disagree with that assertion. But to say that it makes no sense or was inaccurate of anyone on that list at the time I made that post is flat wrong from my perspective.

gonna go reread some iso's from old games because i think i won't be able to focus on my art if i don't do that now.

Why is so much of your play today based on meta and not what's happening in this game? I think it's a bit odd you're trying to make these very complex meta cases on D1. Like, I expect Datisi to definitely reference meta over the course of the game, but you seem to be heavily relying upon it to the point it comes across to me like you're more meta focused than game focused.

@SA

Fwiw contextually I’m pretty sure gamma has been going through rough times IRL (<3 Gamma). Does that info color your read of the wagon response?

Unvote

I can see where that would make it unmotivating to do townie things after being wagoned. Hope things get better soon Gamma. I still think Dunn is more likely town than Gamma so if the wagon pops back up as a counter to Dunn I'm probably jumping back on.

But I'm not really scumreading Gamma either.

Vote Iconeum

Can we just do this? It feels like there's more support for it than the votes have suggested so far and usually when I get that feeling, it turns out I'm voting scum.

lol wut dafuq? (emphasis mine)

I think it's less a lie and more such a nebulous accusation that it's essentially nothing, he couldn't even defend what he meant when pressed on it because it didn't really MEAn anything.

^This is complete bullshit. Nothing I said was nebulous. I made a very clear point of why I find adrift behavior scummy in a game like this. Saying I "couldn't defend" what I said while I'm on VLA, and to a point I already clearly defended upon being asked, is incredibly slimy.

Dunnstral (3)- VP Baltar, Iconeum, Datisi

This wagon comp is

interesting

Another pot shot that says exactly ZERO.

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

On the flip side, gamma may be town because this is the type of personality conflict stuff that he death spirals on as town with me all the time. Stop hating me because I'm beautiful and life would be so much easier.

explain to me how me being reactionary is scummy and not a personality trait?

Explained this above, but replying to you directly incase you miss it. Scum in a competent player list is more likely to be reactionary early in the game because staking out original avenues of inquiry is more likely to draw heat or pushback. That's unsafe ground when you have a player list that is experienced and may be willing to apply serious pressure over a slip or poorly formed accusation. Reacting and lurking, meanwhile, is the type of behavior that often gets dismissed on D1 as not being a strong enough reason to yeet someone.

also there's more to be said about Dunn then just being reactionary and not freeflowing.

Go for it. At the point I made that case, there was little outside that and two games where that was his exact scum meta.

i have a tinfoil theory that involves Fun and Games, Datisi and myself… i'm probably getting heat for this but i don't really care lol

Fun and Games' scumread on me feels really weak. They are pushing Datisi as associative with me because they know i'm yeetbait and the *one* thing standing in their way for easy achievement of that is Datisi townreading me

So this could literally be scum!Fun and Games (damn that name, i tried abreviating that) pushing town!tisi into some sort of corner with regards to my slot, trying to 1) make sure there's no town!tisi defending me and 2) stopping potential town cohesion from forming

You're right that this is very tinfoil.

i take that approach as scum

mostly because i take it as town and have to fake it as scum

soooooo

I actually agree with Ico here a little bit. Some of your flexes this game have been a little weirdly strong. Could just be because I found your "meta" of me kind of silly, but you also poked at F&G for townreading you, didn't you? Seemed a bit over the top. If I'm being completely suspicious minded, it's a good tactic to pre-emptively attack people and that way if they ever turn on you, you can point back and frame it as them reacting to your earlier push.

Let me put this another way, who are your townreads Datisi?

[VP Baltar]

Wow, just ISOed Sleepless Assassin .... dude had an RVS-level vote on Ico out there until he determined the Dunn wagon was "bad" and he voted for Gamma.

>>insert Twitter red flag meme here<<

[VP Baltar]

I've skimmed. I'll put up detailed responses in a bit.

Gamma having a one sided conversation with me while I was gone and taking pot shots doesn't look great.

Also, the pressure dissipating on Gamma and Dunn as soon as I was away looks suspicious. Shenanigans are afoot.

You’re more than welcome to actually engage with me rather than only slithering about when you want something from me

Do you think I'm engaging with you inauthentically?

[VP Baltar]

Gamma, how do you feel about SA?

[VP Baltar]

I agree with you that FG/Penguin reads TvT, as I stated.

Lemme ask you, you feel like I'm scum here mostly because you think I shouldn't have lumped you in with dunn etc early on?

[VP Baltar]

you tried to bully me into voting your wagon of choice

I mean, this is how I play.

I'm always going to rally people to wagons I want to see. This is especially true on D1 when people often mess about without focus.

Making people decide to be on or off a couple wagons on D1 yields a lot of information for later in the game.

[VP Baltar]

Damn, out here acting like I'm Albert B Rampage

[VP Baltar]

Ok, well I'm not trying to disrespect anyone in a game. I just play to win. Anyhow, Dunn is still a good wagon.

What's your read on the Ico/Dats interaction?

[VP Baltar]

And you're thinking Ico is more scummy out of that?

[VP Baltar]

Can you give me your philosophy here a little bit? Do you think we should yeet one of Dunn or Gamma today? Does it matter to you which?

@penguin, you missed this in your replies to me

[VP Baltar]

Don't really want to yeet anyone yet. But no, it doesn't matter to me which at this point.

While I support the "it doesn't matter too much on D1" philosophy, these two sentences are a bit in conflict.

How can you not care who, but also think it is too early to yeet? When will it be the right time to yeet in your opinion?

[VP Baltar]

I will replace after 3 prods in one day phase or 4 prods overall.

Oh! I've never seen a mod threatening to replace out before.

I appreciate it. The culture of non-participation is less than fun.

[VP Baltar]

it went not terribly!

NOICE

[VP Baltar]

A few not so generous interpretations on each side, but both seem to be trying to understand the other in the end.

Where do you think I wasn’t generous with my interpretation and why should i have been?

There was the exchange you had with F&G over whether they were pushing people outside of Dunn (or as you later clarified, why they weren't pushing on you specifically).

At one point in that exchange, you two were sorting out a misunderstanding over meaning and you said this after F&G quoted you:

Is there any particular reason you snipped the context that that was explaining a post literally half the game before it and presented it as though I was saying you're not pushing people right now?

Which felt a little accusatory to me as an outside observer -- or rather a potential bad faith interpretation of the way F&G quoted you. (will admit, I've had similar reactions as town before when I feel like someone is ignoring context though, so....)

That being said, your follow up post further explaining your thought process felt +town to me since you interpreted it as a misunderstanding.

Overall, I came away from that exchange feeling better about both of you because it would have been easy to lean into bad faith arguments there.

[VP Baltar]

I don't like that Ico slacked off on the thread as soon as Datisi had a day off.

I also am mildly annoyed I put a good amount of effort into my catchup and engaged with lots of people there to generate some conversation, and it has received little response.

[VP Baltar]

while i'm catching up:

baltar, if i went on the quest of voting the dragon, would you be interested in joining me?

Id want to hear the actual case. I'm much more interested in a Dunn or possibly SA yeet today.

[VP Baltar]

while i'm catching up:

baltar, if i went on the quest of voting the dragon, would you be interested in joining me?

Id want to hear the actual case. I'm much more interested in a Dunn or possibly SA yeet today.

if i said the case is "i think he's scum and i'm a dragon whisperer", would that be enough for you?

No, sadly

[VP Baltar]

this bad feeling mainly came from the wagon and the gamestate itself. i'm not great at explaining feelings here, but the way it just kinda stalled and didn't move anymore gives me a bad vibe.

I'm confused how a wagon stalling gives you a bad vibe. If anything, isn't that an indicator scum are not wanting it?

er, he may have been posting more than earlier, but that doesn't mean he was like, doing something (no shade pp <3) or was readable to me. up to that point, p much all he's done is vote big wagons, argue with skitt, and kinda sorta put out a readslist. which i'm not sure i would say is a lot of content -- did you find him readable at this point?

I don't have strong feelings about Penguin, but probably more town vibes than scum vibes if I had to make a call at this very moment. Reads to me a bit like a town player who wants D1 to end so some actual analysis can happen...which I get.

however, i do think i would disagree with that assertion. up to that point, gamma appeared to me to be pretty engaged with the game, even moreso than what i usually expect. i just reread his iso from the beginning to the game up to that point, and it seemed to be pretty... solid? like he had a decent amount of reads and was solving. which is partly why i could understand gamma there, because the "case" on him felt pretty... i dunno, incorrect?

could you talk about what made you feel like he's coasting? because i didn't get the impression at all.

Yeah, no.

Gamma spent most of that game up to that point dumping town reads with no explanation, passing banter with folks (which I don't have a problem with) and spending an inordinate amount of time talking about enchant and his town read of enchant. I don't really see solving happening there, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It's a pretty light affair in his ISO through 480, which is where I mentioned him in my early bad vibes list.

I will say someone mentioned Gamma has some IRL shit going on, so I am taking that into consideration in reviewing my own read there.

i don't know. there really isn't a much better answer than "i do what gut tells me will make me be able to solve the game most accurately", and it seems to be a decent amount of meta this game. do you think it actually makes me scummy? i know i'm odd.

(also, "this person isn't suspicious of me when town!them usually is" isn't that complex of a meta case >_>)

I don't know if it's scummy, but definitely notable to me. Could just be how you're approaching this game. It could also be a contrived play that looks like busy work. Guessing the motivation behind it would be nothing more than speculation at this point, but it stuck out to me as maybe slightly different than how I've seen you play before. METAING THE METAING.

talk about tinfoil.

yes, i did poke at skitt for townreading me, mostly because there's an actually similar pattern to you. a game where i was scum and fooled town!skitter (the pinnacle of my scumplay career tbh, might as well retire after that), a game where we were both town and she kept breathing down my neck for the entire game, and now this game where she is casually townreading me. should i not find it odd?

your theory is nice, but... isn't that applicable to like, the vast majority of all pushes that have been done in mafia, ever?

This I disagree with on a couple levels.

First, you're accusing skitter and me of doing the exact same thing...which is just weird. Like, do you think we are both scum? If no, then the thing you're doing seems like it's maybe not alignment indicative.

Second, going on the offense as scum isn't really a crazy strategy. It is more risky, but the rewards are also higher. I don't think it's applicable to all mafia pushes. I think scum play more passive or aggressive based upon each player's approach. You are absolutely someone who isn't going to play a passive game if you draw scum, so it doesn't seem crazy to me at all.

townpings on all of gamma, cakez, a50, sleepless assassin, f&g.

Very confused on the SA town read. What do you think of his voting record?

[VP Baltar]

i find him scummy for other reasons.

go on

[VP Baltar]

So I guess I want Gamma/VP/Dunn to tell me why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy.

Well, fwiw, I simply said it didn't make sense to me to be moving forward on D1 with conflicting theories of the game.

The problem I see with Ico's list is this: Let's say we yeet someone on that list and they flip --- town or scum --- what does Ico learn about the rest of the list? Potentially very little since there are conflicting theories underlying said list.

At best, this is just a not great way to play or it is leaving a lot of doors open to change your reads later so the rest of the town can't hold you to anything. I'd rather see someone try to make a theory of the game work and fail, personally. At least then I, as a town player, can question that person why they felt that way specifically.

[VP Baltar]

it seems like penguin has done much less?

so has Not_Mafia, but we all know that's a lost cause. I can't remember playing with Penguin before, and I'm gathering from others that this is his D1 style. Am I interpreting that wrong?

[VP Baltar]

if i may countermeta the metaing of meta: scum!me loves busywork, but "reading through old games in hopes of making a case on someone that will be reliant on meta" is... not busywork for scum!me. like, it would be much easier to just make up some nonsense about the things in the thread. (i obviously understand this is gonna be taken with a huge grain of salt because self meta bad, but you get my point.)

Maybe it would be? But nonsense things in thread are more likely to get pushback. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time arguing meta with you, so I can see that as an effective EFFORT strategy as scum.

All that being said, it's not an unfair point you're making.

[VP Baltar]

yes, i am accusing you of doing the same thing, because you two did the same thing. i don't think it's impossible, but no, i don't currently think you two are scum together. but i'm not sure where you're getting the... "either a tell is 100% accurate in all cases, or it's not alignment indicative". like, you yourself have once called out scum!me for not showing paranoia around you, so i reckon you don't think the tell is complete nonsense. it doesn't make you or skitter lockscum sure, but it's a piece of the puzzle. why such a black-and-white view on tells?

Just trying to think through your thought process in making the same accusation twice. What I'm saying is that it's either a solid accusation or not in your mind. It seems like perhaps it is less "AH HA!" than you made it out to be originally (which is fine, I get a little hyperbole when you're attacking someone to apply pressure.)

[VP Baltar]

Also, the pressure dissipating on Gamma and Dunn as soon as I was away looks suspicious. Shenanigans are afoot.

who do you think is responsible for this?

I don't think I can point to any one person. I went away for the weekend, and POOF, no more pressure. It may not be nefarious, but I do find it confusing that people were actually listening to me about Dunn and then suddenly everyone is acting like it's a shit case.

[VP Baltar]

SirC's been pushing and seeking support for his pushes - i like his general thread presence

have I? lol I don't understand why I am getting townreads this game I have hardly been doing anything

Major townpoints to Cakes for this actually. I was wondering why the hell everyone is town binning him as well since he wasn't here, and then he calls it out himself!

[VP Baltar]

right now my scum pool would be like (F&G, Dats, Dunn, A50)
maybe Enchant but I don't want to fuck with the LHF right now

I'm going to reread that page 37 you reference. Is there something specific there you think is manipulative from F&G?

Also, what's your thought on Sleepless?

[VP Baltar]

What is LHF

low hanging fruit

[VP Baltar]

F&G, are all skitter posts signed by skitter and all non-signed posts by pooky?

[VP Baltar]

Just curious. You seem to be doing a lot of the posting and I was wondering if that was intentional or how you two are deciding who is posting what

[VP Baltar]

Also i want to point out that dunn is still doing like nothing

~ skitter

[VP Baltar]

Wow, dang.

[VP Baltar]

I’m trying not to default to scumreading the little things from you given VPs point that I might be being less charitable than I should be irt your motivations though.

You shouldn't change your game because of me. I have zero experience with skitter, so maybe your approach is better, shrug.

I feel ok on F&G, though I will say that last time I played with Pooky, he was spitting fire at anyone and everyone, and he's being pretty quiet this game and letting skitter kind of drive the bus. I've poked at this a little bit throughout the game, and their answers seem reasonable enough. Still a notable shift for me, but whatever.

[VP Baltar]

Enchant, you still think SA is scum?

Dunn, you going to vote someone?

[VP Baltar]

Ye

Can you remind me what bugged you about him?

[VP Baltar]

I had already been trying to get people to vote Iconeum at that point.

That's my bad. I had forgotten you were already voting Ico, so it seemed weird to ask for a new wagon when I didn't think you were on. I had incorrectly assumed you had moved from your first vote 28 pages into the game, but you were still on Ico.

If you don't agree with my take on Dunns exchange with Fun And Games then unfortunately you'd be right I don't have a reason to town read him because that's the most telling thing I've seen from Dunn aside from his comment that you called a soft claim. But let me clarify that it's not the wagon composition that I didn't like, it's my specific read on Dunn. I think he's townier than Gamma. So I preferred Gamma.

Someone said this earlier, and you probably addressed it (I need to reread), but I have a hard time with anyone seeing Dunn as townier than Gamma. Gamma is at least here and doing SOMETHING.

Further, you later stated you were "not really scumreading Gamma"...so it just seems like a bizarre place to put a vote. Were you voting it only because it was a wagon with momentum?

Continuing on that point:

Is it unreasonable to believe Bingle that Gamma is going through RL things? Or is it unreasonable to believe RL can lead to apathy just as much as Gammas alignment could?

No, it's not unreasonable at all. But my problem is that you explicitly state you're note scumreading Gamma, so I just don't get why you voted him in the first place. It reads as blatantly trying to find a counterwagon to Dunn, which I don't get at all. How is that a better use of your energy than trying to convince people with a case to vote your top scumread of Ico?

Interesting take. I didn't place an RVS vote in this game.

I said "RVS-level" vote. I understand it wasn't a true RVS in the sense that it was a joke. You made what appeared to be a serious vote. But it was also on like page 6 of the game right when RVS was sort of finishing. The fact you hadn't moved your vote from that point strikes me as somewhat scummy regardless of Ico's alignment. Vote camping is much more likely to come from scum than from town, who are lacking knowledge on whether their votes are correct.

[VP Baltar]

I don't recommend eliminating me

Back in my day, this kind of shit got you straight limmed on D1.

[VP Baltar]

Dats -- you still want to lim the Ico slot now that it's being replaced?

[VP Baltar]

you still interested in hearing that, or...?

Yes, definitely

[VP Baltar]

how sure are you on dunn being scum?

70%?

I'm interested in hearing from you if you think his play differs here from when he was scum with you on D1. Just feel like I've tried to give him opportunities to engage with me in a real way, and he's trying to end those as fast as possible to return to lurking. It's major bad vibes for me.

I feel better about yeeting there than most anywhere else. Sleepless has given me some bad vibes as well. I maybe feel like giving Gamma a pass for today because I can't say I have a great track record reading him.

I guess if my vote is needed on the Ico wagon to finish it, I'm not opposed, but it feels slightly too popular for ambiguous reasons to me.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: iconeum
I'm gonna throw my old townblock out the window and make a new one with

blackjack and hookers

cakez, enchant, f&g, and penguin at the center

what's up

Lmao why does my slot act like a genie and only appears when summoned

What did we used to call this? Wasn't it like the Amished tell or something? Is that still a thing?

Yes. Very interesting

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: iconeum
I'm gonna throw my old townblock out the window and make a new one with

blackjack and hookers

cakez, enchant, f&g, and penguin at the center

what's up

Lmao why does my slot act like a genie and only appears when summoned

What did we used to call this? Wasn't it like the Amished tell or something? Is that still a thing?

It never was.

It definitely was a thing. I was in the original game I think?

RIP Amished

[VP Baltar]

Um? That quote came when I unvoted. So you have timing mixed up pretty badly. You seem think it was:
Townread Gamma --> Vote Gamma for a counterwagon to Dunn
It was more like:
Weak read on Gamma -> Vote Gamma for counterwagon -> Realize my reasons for voting him didn't actually make him scum -> unvote and say I'm not really scumreading him anymore.

dawg, these posts are 12 hours apart.

That's a lot of thought development over a short period of time.

[VP Baltar]

i mean yes, but we both know n_m is n_m. and i was guessing you didn't have experience with penguin's meta. which is what i'm talking about, if at the time you didn't know he just ~acts like this~, why didn't you put him into that group? (here i'd have to go back to check whether anyone mentioned his meta by that point, but am lazy)

@vp, i believe this wasn't answered

IDK, I guess I just picked up this is how he plays. He's got some years on the site, so if it was actually a departure from his playstyle, seems like people would have jumped all over it....and they were not. I guess it is a context read.

[VP Baltar]

I spent, what did you say 28 pages?, trying for Iconeum and was getting nothing. A Gamma wagon seemed more productive than continuing to waste my breath on what was turning out more and more to be a vanity Vote.

I mean, first, IDK if I'd call your play here "trying" to get an ICO yeet. I'll go back at somepoint and read your ISO to see how hard you were pushing, but it doesn't stand out in my mind as a concentrated push. As far as Gamma, again, we are talking about 12 hours you had your vote there. That's not exactly trying something new before going back to the same wagon you were on before.

[VP Baltar]

Then you're massively underestimating my confidence in the read.

How confident are you that the Ico slot is scum? Give me a percent.

[VP Baltar]

Iconeum pinged me for not directly answering Datisi asking his alignment. Then there was the overly self conscious "in before scumslip" post after the weird but admittedly relatable string of posts about not remembering how to play. The "did we roll t/t" post pinged again. Just feels like unnecessarily saying "I'm town".

Just to be clear, this is Sleepless' full case on Iconeum.

I went back through Sleepless' iso to see if he pushed on Ico, as he claimed, and the extent of it is asking a couple people what their read on Ico is, and then appealing -- to no one in particular -- something to the effect of "can we just yeet Ico now."

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sleepless Assassin

There's malarkey here. He may even be partners with a hypothetical Ico-scum. I don't buy his vote/unvote on Gamma when that was getting steam, and I can't tell you a single place he is seriously pushing outside of that.

If I can't get Dunn today, I think this is a good bet.

[VP Baltar]

his is Sleepless' full case on Iconeum.

I'm legitimately surprised. I didn't know that

Feel free to elaborate if I'm missing something. What is your case on Ico/DArby?

[VP Baltar]

What is your case on Ico/DArby?

[VP Baltar]

To clarify, SA, I have read your ISO.

[VP Baltar]

vp he's been scumreading ico since like his second post

~ skitter

First post actually.

[VP Baltar]

vp is your issue that you don't think sa has sufficiently explained his reasonign?

~ skitter

That is what I'm stating at the moment. I also think he is blowing smoke about his Gamma vote.

If he is that confident in an Ico scumread, it seems like he should be able to tell me a bullet point case of why instead of telling me to read his iso.

[VP Baltar]

And FWIW, there are exactly 28 instances of "ico" on SA's ISO.

Yes, but I implore everyone to go read his ISO and see how many of those are of substance or pointing out things with scum motivation.

[VP Baltar]

So it changed? A minute ago your issue was that I haven't been pushing Iconeum

How are those different my guy? You did not push Ico. Which seems to be why you can't explain your case quickly.

Because it is not a real scum read.

[VP Baltar]

BOOOOOOP

[VP Baltar]

The silence is deafening

[VP Baltar]

Yes, but I implore everyone to go read his ISO and see how many of those are of substance or pointing out things with scum motivation.

I did. It's the one you quoted and the one I quoted.

Doesn't it seem odd to you to hang on to a scum read for 50 pages with no change based upon that?

[VP Baltar]

I mean he does have other reads, i guess i'm just not convinced that the fact that he didnt reallh expound on the ico read makes him scum

Pedit ugh i think this is a tvt >.>
~ skitter

I've been pointing things out as they come up. His burst style posting made it rare, but my points are ones I truly believe in.

Lemme ask you this, who do you think has been pushing Ico more, you or Datisi?

[VP Baltar]

His burst style posting made it rare, but my points are ones I truly believe in.

Why would Ico's posting style affect your ability to push him?

[VP Baltar]

In both Micro 880 and Open 740, SA was town and quite liberally cast his vote around early in the game.

[VP Baltar]

I guess i'm still not sure why 'not explaining his ico push more' -> 'scum-sa'

~ skitter

Because it isn't a real read. If you have a real read on someone, you don't need a bunch of time to articulate it. If you have a real read, you KNOW why you suspect someone. If you're scum and faking a read, you don't have that natural recall because you're making it up. You don't believe what you're saying in the game, and you're worried that if you shoot from the hip, you might have said something contradictory before.

Town is easy to play because you don't have that worry hanging over your head. SA doesn't have that easy breezy feeling now. He's relying on "read my iso" to defend his position.

[VP Baltar]

This exactly struck me as 'natural townie recall' - it sounrs like he really remembers how he felt at various points in the game, when i think scum probably wouldn't have that

These are literally the things Bingle and I quoted him on. He didn't put this up when I asked him to make his Ico case.

[VP Baltar]

Hasn't it been like two years since I played a game? Lol.

Only looking at your most recent games. Didn't even look at the date on them. Still, why so stingy with your vote here?

[VP Baltar]

what is even going on

Scum hunting

[VP Baltar]

Why not vote me or A50?

[VP Baltar]

I'm at a ten bois ask me anything

What are you drinking and is the hangover worth it?

[VP Baltar]

BEEP BOOP

[VP Baltar]

I think F&G is the only person who has weighed in on my Sleepless case. Let's get some calling VP crazy or voting going on here.

[VP Baltar]

mmmm? what case?

General case is that SA put a vote down on Ico initially with somewhat flimsy reasoning, then never really moved it for a full 50 pages.

He wasn't pressing Ico with questions, or actively trying to persuade others to see what he was seeing in Ico. He would merely make an occasional request to other players for their opinions on Ico, in an open ended way, with little follow up.

The one time he did depart from this Ico vote was to vote Gamma as that wagon gained a little steam, but then 12 hours later, SA unvotes Gamma and says he didn't really find him scummy. It was back to Ico at that point.

When I pressed SA about this and asked him to quickly tell me his reasons for voting Ico, he repeatedly told me to "read his iso", which I argue is a sign that SA knows his reasoning was flimsy and he never really believed in his vote or thought it through. If you're voting someone that long, you should be able to rattle off your reasons quickly.

Now, contrast this vote camping from SA with his most recent town games (which admittedly are a couple years old). SA in those games votes 4+ people in D1 scenarios.

Am I being unreasonable here? I think not. I believe SA is scum, and potentially may be buddies with Ico!scum.

[VP Baltar]

mmm - i don't really get it and your main crux relies on admittedly years old meta.

The main crux is not meta.

[VP Baltar]

That's corrobarative of my intuition here, but you can look solely at the way SA has played in this game and see there isn't true conviction to convincing others on the Ico "case", or even a true interrogation taking place there. That's the crux and it's self contained within this game.

[VP Baltar]

I don't see how VP can still believe any of that after our whole exchange

You mean when you got super defensive and couldn't explain your case without me quoting it back to you?

[VP Baltar]

Doesn't it seem odd to you to hang on to a scum read for 50 pages with no change based upon that?

Not really?

Like, I’d think it was more weird if SA was reconsidering when ico just straight up wasn’t here.

Sa’s case is pretty trash, but if pushing a player without casing them was a scum thing then like half of the thread is scum.

True, but I guess it is the delusion being expressed too? Like stating he has done more than datisi on Ico is chest puffing and defensive if you ask me. Had he said "yeah, I kind of phoned it in", I might have more doubt. But he's doubled down when i pressed him.

[VP Baltar]

but ico was never really around to answer dats questions.

Right, but dats was asking questions. That's largely absent in SA's play and then he calls to the heavens: 'why is Ico ignoring me!'

[VP Baltar]

How do I do that? I'm new to my phone. It's an android one. Galaxy S something if that makes a difference.

phone quoting is hard, but you can highlight a piece of text and click the quote button to quote just that highlighted text. you can also just quote the entire post and respond below it so the reference materials are at least there.

[VP Baltar]

this is where my reads are sitting rn (I don't rlly have scumread, just people I don't TR)

gun to the head, who do you want to lim from the non-town pile today.

[VP Baltar]

How do I do that? I'm new to my phone. It's an android one. Galaxy S something if that makes a difference.

phone quoting is hard, but you can highlight a piece of text and click the quote button to quote just that highlighted text. you can also just quote the entire post and respond below it so the reference materials are at least there.

That scares me though because I can't just stay on one tab so I worry about losing a post.

When I'm on my phone, I tend to just respond to one thing per post because of that very reason. Makes for a slightly more spammy game, but I don't think most people mind that much.

[VP Baltar]

baltar/sleepless/iconeum scumteam

where do i pick up my paragon scummy

Quality posting

[VP Baltar]

i am kind of annoyed that baltar asked me to actually spend 10 minutes of my time going through ico's iso and writing out a case to then have The Nerve to ignore it

It wasn't remarkable to me. I read it and walked away not feeling swayed either way by it.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: sircakez

I haven't seen you say anything remotely redeemable about DArby....so why are you wanting to change trajectory entirely?

[VP Baltar]

FWIW, DArby's absence today isn't doing him any favors. I'm probably willing to compromise on that yeet if we need to in the next day or two.

[VP Baltar]

Not_Mafia would be receiving his third prod this day phase right about now. Instead, he's getting replaced.

The most just outcome!

I've never played a game with a mod I loved more

[VP Baltar]

anything that i post towards darby is not gonna be very useful because they're not here and haven't read the game so what do i even push him on

Didn't he say he was caught up now?

[VP Baltar]

my point about him not really being here and showing us much still stands imo

Yes, he is definitely leaving plenty of room for improvement. But I guess if you have questions for him, fire away!

[VP Baltar]

Yeet them all.

[VP Baltar]

Where my head is currently.

I probably should have more of a read on VP/SleeplessA -.-

~pooks

Weren't yall townreading me earlier?

[VP Baltar]

Weren't yall townreading me earlier?

You are thinking of SkitteR :3

I'd prefer if yall had one set of reads for the sake of accountaibilty

[VP Baltar]

imagine asking a hydra to actually sync up their reads

~ skitter

Mommy and daddy should never fight in front of the children.

[VP Baltar]

imagine asking a hydra to actually sync up their reads

1419

That was my thought too but I really hope he meant something else.

Why do you hope I meant something else (hint: I did not)?

[VP Baltar]

also hi i am drinking does anyone wanna fight about something

You're wrong about hydra consistency.

[VP Baltar]

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on you now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

What about me?

~ skitter

I townread you mainly because I feel your dissonance between yourselves is genuine.

How does that make them town? Do you think you a scum hydra would fake dissonance in thread to appear more townie?

[VP Baltar]

hydras are lazy mf'ers who exist solely to troll the game and they never bother to sync up their own reads at all (coming from someone who does hydra every now and then) so no i am not

y'all allow too much bad behavior on this site.

[VP Baltar]

ok ok ok baltar now that you are here i need your professional opinion on something

so i saw this post:

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on [datisi] now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

this post struck me as kinda townie. maybe i'm wrong on that beign townie bc trying to placate your pushers is a thing sometimes but this tone and timing just seemed *too* placate-y it circled around into town

however, this post:

But shouldn’t that be a d2+ thing? This logic seems weird.

seemed to be hedgy shady bullshit and i don't like it

discuss

I get what you're saying on the placating. I've been trying to determine how I feel about his "well I'm probably the yeet today, oh well" posting. I've been internally debating whether DArby is cunning enough to fake that as scum.

[VP Baltar]

imagine asking a hydra to actually sync up their reads

1419

That was my thought too but I really hope he meant something else.

Why do you hope I meant something else (hint: I did not)?

1443
Two people having the exact same reads isn't likely unless the reads are fake. You accused me of having fake reads so I figured you'd understand this.

As a hydra, you can have disputes internally, but post with agreed upon reads.

The reason it is scum-helpful is because then in the future if anyone questions them over a read, they can just point to the other hydra head and say "well I didn't agree with that".

[VP Baltar]

Do you think you a scum hydra would fake dissonance in thread to appear more townie?

Only the good ones. Weaponized hydra dissonance is a powerful tool in the hands of a decent scum player.

Stop reading my mind OK BINGLE

[VP Baltar]

baltar

do you think i should be townreading you by now

Probably. I couldn't be anymore town.

[VP Baltar]

I'm religiously allergic to reading wall-posts

I made like two wall posts and that was just to catch up after I was gone about 36 hours.

Just admit you hate me.

p.edit -- actually going to bump this loudly on my sound system now.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DArby

Feel like this is going to be the most informative yeet and I'm bored with this day.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DArby

Feel like this is going to be the most informative yeet and I'm bored with this day.

What would you get if I flipped either alignment?

I think if you flip town, it probably puts SA in a worse light in particular. I'd also want to look at your wagon composition over time and see who was pushing it without being super committed.

If you flip scum, that's a whole other ball of yarn to untangle, and I probably won't tip my hand at this point ahead of a night kill.

The good news with your flip is that lots of people have interacted with Ico or talked a good amount about him, so there are connections to look at there.

[VP Baltar]

Hey Penguin, why haven't you weighed in on anything recently?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DArby

Feel like this is going to be the most informative yeet and I'm bored with this day.

why do you wanna push this through before we get replacements / quiet people weigh in?

With three days left, there are only so many actually viable wagons. I'm not opposed to waiting for people to catch up, but let's be real about how the day is going to end with this level of participation right now.

[VP Baltar]

I can consolidate on Dunn slot
no interest in limming Ico

Would also lim the Dunn slot as a first preference.

[VP Baltar]

I know Dunn is the other wagon of interest today, but other than the “boring ISO” post, what’s the reason behind it?

Part of it is Dunn's scum meta, which I've witnessed from both sides of the table before. I hit some other in game reasons in 939 why I think he's scummy.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dunn

Let's do it

[VP Baltar]

Can we not speedlim b4 we get a replacement pls

Sure! After all, we still have (expired on 2021-11-23 22:59:00) before we hammer someone else.

A50 scared of the Dunn flip.

[VP Baltar]

But if you're town who is holding onto it to avoid being NKd, those thoughts dying with you if they're really as accurate as you seem to think, is worse than losing you as a player in this game.

Why in the world should I spill info now that helps scum plan? I don't think my thoughts are more valuable than anyone else's, so if I die, oh well. I'm certainly not going to give up info that helps scum play off my own speculation in the case it is wrong.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: dunn

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dunn

Let's do it

Then if it’s meta, I can’t argue for or against. For now I’ll trust it.

VOTE: Dunn

this is p much the same wagon that was on dunn earlier in the day

i have feelings about it but i don't know what they are

I have feelings about you starting a wagon and immediately shading it

[VP Baltar]

Out of dunn/ico/gamma dunn is my least favorite vote, and we should get a replacement before we flip him

~ skitter

Why? Also, I don't think Gamma is really on the table today

[VP Baltar]

i think the other 2 are worse than dunn

This isn't really an answer though. How are they worse? or rather, what is good about Dunn?

[VP Baltar]

A50, your primary reason for wanting a Gamma wagon is the tell, right?

[VP Baltar]

@pooky - how helpful was Gamma in trying to find solves D1 in Hidden Temple. You and skitter seem to be making a meta argument here. I feel like I'm seeing the same ego driven argument style from Gamma that does pop up in his town play. It's the same attitude you all attacked me with in that game. I don't disagree that Gamma hasn't been solving a ton here, but the tenor of his posting is similarly abrasive at times...which seems like a bad approach as scum.

[VP Baltar]

Like, it begs to end up in a 1v1, which is not really where you want to be as scum.

[VP Baltar]

@pooky - how helpful was Gamma in trying to find solves D1 in Hidden Temple. You and skitter seem to be making a meta argument here. I feel like I'm seeing the same ego driven argument style from Gamma that does pop up in his town play. It's the same attitude you all attacked me with in that game. I don't disagree that Gamma hasn't been solving a ton here, but the tenor of his posting is similarly abrasive at times...which seems like a bad approach as scum.

I don't use hidden temple as comp because I feel after gamma siteflaked and then came back his town play improved significantly and I've been fairly good at spotting it in games with him hence why I use recent completed games as a comparison.

Ok, I can't speak to that because it sounds like something that happened while I was gone for the past 9 months or so.

The attitude of feeling aggrieved from him seems familiar to me in how ive encountered him as town, but I'll look at the games you linked (probably this afternoon).

[VP Baltar]

Like, it begs to end up in a 1v1, which is not really where you want to be as scum.

I don't like this argument because he doesn't have a lot of choices here.

If he's scum, he could feel compelled to do something rather than wait to die.

If he pushes elsewhere he could end up spewing someone else town and turning that person against himself

Whereas he could hope swinging back at us gets him townread for audacity or w/e.

Not sure I buy this is less risky than getting into a 1v1 with me or pooky. I'm stubborn af when I'm town and I'm not going to let someone yeet me. Pooky seems the same.

[VP Baltar]

Well up until now my basis in this game has felt very weak so I didn’t feel like trying to press based on that was very honest.

What do you mean your "basis in this game"?

[VP Baltar]

And it took 20 pages for it to feel like I’d gotten the message across with my vote, because that was the entire point of it. Baltar tried to bully me into voting Dunnstral and I challenged his assumption that I’d simply take the knee. A similar thing happened with me and Aaron in Gensokyo.

This is pretty silly honestly. Do you think I even noticed or cared you had a lone vote on me? What is the message I was supposed to get from this?

[VP Baltar]

And it took 20 pages for it to feel like I’d gotten the message across with my vote, because that was the entire point of it.

what was the point of your vote?

Basically: a big fat middle finger to the unearned authority Baltar was trying to exert on me.

Nevermind, I guess this is a thing that's supposed to mean something!

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I checked the meta that F&G cites. I think it's reasonable why they feel Gamma is being different this game, because he is certainly scum hunting less/coasting more than the listed games.

I do think Gamma's whole vote on me to show me a lesson is a somewhat silly defense of vote parking and doing little. Spoiler: I have learned zero lessons, and felt zero shame about my play in this game. That being said, Gamma acting mad toward me and overstating his own proficiency at this game isn't super new either. So I'm not sure what to think here.

The interaction between F&G and gamma doesn't feel quite TvT to me, but I can't put my finger on why.

Bingle, what's your take on their back and forth the last few pages?

[VP Baltar]

Fwiw on my end it really isnt meta based at all, but rather on what he's been doing this game

~ skitter

But comparing it to what you expect...seems like you've played with Gamma before as well, yes?

[VP Baltar]

Gamma burying the lead on his meta case also doesn't impress. "There's something about the Mountain Dew game that makes me think something about skitter and/or pooky that makes this back and forth useful, but I'm going to not actually say what it is with like 3 days in the phase" doesn't strike me as a likely town thought process.

This is a fair point Gamma. Why are you playing hide the ball here?

[VP Baltar]

actually you looking for some stupid reason to start a 1v1 fight is kinda ++ scum lol

How so?

[VP Baltar]

Gamma, how confident are you in this pooky tell? It reads quite thin.

[VP Baltar]

Dunnstral (4)- DArby, Gamma Emerald, Datisi, VP Baltar

That actually goes for all four of you.

Are you expecting a Dunn elim in the last 24 hours of the day or is this a vanity wagon? If the latter, why?

Obviously not a vanity wagon for me.

But I'm also not impressed with Gamma the last few pages, so my statement about viability there could be incorrect.

[VP Baltar]

tbf, seems like Bingle is trying to rally people to his poverty.

P.edit: real life comes first of course. The gamma-FG interaction is a pretty quick read, even with checking the source meta referenced. Took me about 30 mins yesterday