Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Sleepless Assassin]

Vote Iconeum

If I was a double voter VP would get my other vote.

[Sleepless Assassin]

This means you're not sure of either, because if you were you'd be packing up both votes on your confident read. (Smart monkey is SMART, eh?)

Sadly, all it means is I'm not a double voter.

[Quote"VP"]
Go on....[/quote]

Iconeum pinged me for not directly answering Datisi asking his alignment. Then there was the overly self conscious "in before scumslip" post after the weird but admittedly relatable string of posts about not remembering how to play. The "did we roll t/t" post pinged again. Just feels like unnecessarily saying "I'm town".

You being my second scum read I'm less confident on mostly because it's early and it's been a long time but I feel like I remember you being really analytical and trying hard. And I feel like I remember you coasting early in a scum game once. I'd have to go back to years ago to look and even then it's probably outdated. But it did get my attention.

P.S. Not trying to "townslip". Genuine question though. Consider it NAI

Lmao.

------------
Bingle,
1. Why did we need a mechanics discussion?
2. Why the Fun and Games vote?

Would it be wrong to townblock Datisi/Icon/VP already?

Yes. Not just wrong but very wrong.

[Sleepless Assassin]

A50 I feel like you need a name from the Title Fairy but I don't know what

Innocent little ME?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bingle being Jingle makes sense now

[Sleepless Assassin]

Almost50 do you have a read on Iconeum?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm also getting some scumpings from penguin but its probably like too early to commit to that read just yet

~ skitter

That's like my exact penguin read. Iconeum is a better vote right now.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok I'll keep your seat warm on the wagon. Yes it has heated seats.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Fun and Games seemed perfectly reasonable to me on Dunn.

Not sure how to take Dunn saying otherwise. I don't think it's intentional or malicious but if it came down to 1v1 I'd be more likely to think Dunn was the one twisting things.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Imo if i had gun i would shot Sleepless Assassin.

Rude

--------

Bingle, makes it hard to clear it up when you don't say why.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bingle, makes it hard to clear it up when you don't say why.

What do you need clarified? I’ve said a little bit on a lot of topics so far.

You reacted twice to my same post with no details. You said ew and that it was the acummiest tvt read you've ever seen. Most of your details have been setup related. Actually none of your reads up to that point came with details unless I missed them.

---------

Gamma, where did you get that Enchant meant datisi and not Iconeum?

-------

Enchant, is ass really the best way you can think to shorthand my name.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Assass?

Sigh

Enchant quoted a posting then said “SA voted this” so I thought enchant meant the person he quoted

Oh ok I can see where you'd take it that way

[Sleepless Assassin]

You reacted twice to my same post with no details. You said ew and that it was the acummiest tvt read you've ever seen. Most of your details have been setup related. Actually none of your reads up to that point came with details unless I missed them.

I felt that the why there was pretty self explanatory. You were saying that Dunn/F+G was TvT and still leaving a back door to later vote Dunn for being “worse” in the TvT.

I mean your description is accurate, just I don't have the motivation you're assigning. I can understand it though. All I mean is if I'm forced to choose a side over it I'm siding with Fun and Games. They look more town in the exchange. Did you ever go more into your reads on Fun and Games and Almost50? What are your two strongest reads excluding those two and myself? What is your read on Iconeum?

[Sleepless Assassin]

i have a galaxy brain take on why cakez and pooky do not share a scum pt

also cakez needs a lesson on how i read the dragon, but that will come with time

Is it because you think pooky followed the link here to the title fairy thread and if they were scum together it might have been in the PT? Because if so, it applies to Gamma also. And I don't really think it would have been in the PT? And even if not, this even being a possibility is why the title nom should have waited til the game ended.

[Sleepless Assassin]

i have a galaxy brain take on why cakez and pooky do not share a scum pt

also cakez needs a lesson on how i read the dragon, but that will come with time

What the hell does this post even mean lmao

I couldn't figure it out either.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Not sure if that's to me or not but I got that

I was confused by why Datisi doesn't think pooky and sircakez can be scum together.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I actually meant to say boop

[Sleepless Assassin]

That's what he said. What he didn't say is why he thinks that.

[Sleepless Assassin]

VP how do you see me as keeping pace better than those you listed when of those you listed only Dunn has less posts than me? Do you think Not_Mafia is keeping pace?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Gamma and Enchant have more posts than you, Vp

[Sleepless Assassin]

VP how do you see me as keeping pace better than those you listed when of those you listed only Dunn has less posts than me? Do you think Not_Mafia is keeping pace?

Post count is not what I mean when I say keeping pace

Ok but my question still applies on Gamma or Dunn vs Not_Mafia with keeping pace.

[Sleepless Assassin]

VP how do you see me as keeping pace better than those you listed when of those you listed only Dunn has less posts than me? Do you think Not_Mafia is keeping pace?

Post count is not what I mean when I say keeping pace

Ok but my question still applies on Gamma or Dunn vs Not_Mafia with keeping pace.

1) have you played with NM before? 2) if yes, are you being real?

Yes and yes. Do you think he's keeping pace better than Gamma or Dunn? If you didn't include him because of meta, why did you include enchant?

[Sleepless Assassin]

VP how do you see me as keeping pace better than those you listed when of those you listed only Dunn has less posts than me? Do you think Not_Mafia is keeping pace?

Post count is not what I mean when I say keeping pace

Ok but my question still applies on Gamma or Dunn vs Not_Mafia with keeping pace.

1) have you played with NM before? 2) if yes, are you being real?

Yes and yes. Do you think he's keeping pace better than Gamma or Dunn? If you didn't include him because of meta, why did you include enchant?

I don't know enchant. This is about being engaged with a competent player list.

NM is never engaged with any player list. NM gets resolved through night actions.

Ok, fair.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bingle, you were thinking of me. I was looking for reasoning on Almost50 and Fun and Games, your two strongest reads other than those two slots and myself, and a read on Iconeum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm a little surprised to see Iconeum come in without a word about or to me.

[Sleepless Assassin]

That part is probably just from being busy

[Sleepless Assassin]

Quote="Datisi"]
they *can*, i just don't think it's likely. mainly, i think it's decently unlikely scum!cakez attacks me with a push that bad if pooky is in the scum pt with him, i believe pooky thinks i am very prone to omgus-ing, and i'm generally loud and annoying and likely to be townread as town. generally not a good thing to get on your ass if you're scum.[/quote]

Meh. That feels like a lot of assuming. If sircakez already started it wouldn't feel natural enough to just stop so they'd have to be careful. You're also assuming Pooky would read that the same way as you and that sircakez would let pooky dictate his play that way. I don't really think they're a scum team I'd pick anyway and I'm townreading you so it doesn't really matter much. But meh I don't see what you see.

[Sleepless Assassin]

And it's typed exactly like that in my word file (including the spaces)

Why include stuff like this? Personally I do it as scum because it makes people think along the lines of "oh you have notes so you must be town"

someone more objective than me, tell me if there's any scum!motivation in lying about this.

Not really. Only thing I can think of and it's way too much of a stretch is if he somehow thought he'd benefit from playing dumb on your meta knowing full well you'd call him out on it. And if he was trying that he'd be aware enough to know he just referenced it. So no I don't see it. I'm curious what tinfoil you think you have . Random question (well not truly random I suppose), outside of mafia in life do you consider yourself an overthinker?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I feel old at 31. Like when I stand up I don't know what's louder, my groaning or my bones cracking.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok

[Sleepless Assassin]

Why include stuff like this? Personally I do it as scum because it makes people think along the lines of "oh you have notes so you must be town"

That's exactly why I did it. Are you not reading the game???

Sigh

[Sleepless Assassin]

I mean I can see if paranoia is missing due to actually knowing your alignment. I'm not sure he'd lie about not remembering something but the fact that he mentioned it multiple times in another game is weird. I could sheep that case combined with my own early mild suspicions if the only alternatives turn out to be Dunn and Gamma which seems possible.

[Sleepless Assassin]

We need a new wagon. Anyone wanna do Iconeum with me?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unvote, Vote Gamma

This is better than Dunn. 732 feels more like someone who feels they have no value in this game once they're gone. I don't want to say survivalistic because it feels more like giving up but... I'm trying to think how to phrase this. Just the lack of any kind of "if I die do this" or "let me post some final reads" just feels like he thinks he's going down so his game is over. If that makes sense? It's hard to put words to it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Pretty sure I just mentioned that.

[Sleepless Assassin]

732 feels more like someone who feels they have no value in this game once they're gone.

Why is that deserving of a vote?

Town can still solve while they're going down or try to guide the rest of the Town. Scum, yes they can impact the game as they're going down. But it takes a certain kind of player. A lot give up and figure they've already failed if they aren't surviving

[Sleepless Assassin]

There was momentum regardless of the actual count

[Sleepless Assassin]

I haven't gone back to verify this but I think sitter is posting a ton more than pooky so we see so much more of one head that sitters reads feel like they represent both which doesn't necessarily mean they agree, more that Pookys voice isn't being heard

[Sleepless Assassin]

gamma doesn't strike me as a player that would just go into complete antispew there? especially as he wasn't really that close to yeet

He kind of was but either way can you not see how there was momentum and he could have felt like he was going down?

[Sleepless Assassin]

@SA

Fwiw contextually I’m pretty sure gamma has been going through rough times IRL (<3 Gamma). Does that info color your read of the wagon response?

Unvote

I can see where that would make it unmotivating to do townie things after being wagoned. Hope things get better soon Gamma. I still think Dunn is more likely town than Gamma so if the wagon pops back up as a counter to Dunn I'm probably jumping back on. But I'm not really scumreading Gamma either.

Vote Iconeum

Can we just do this? It feels like there's more support for it than the votes have suggested so far and usually when I get that feeling, it turns out I'm voting scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Boopfail

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm a little surprised to see Iconeum come in without a word about or to me.

hello i am dragon, who are you?

Just some guy. I also happen to think you're scum so that's a thing too.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'll catch up later. I'm going to bed.

[Sleepless Assassin]

A50 prob town, really reading like his previous game recently

Can you give a link and quick summary of what you find similar?

Note to self: Iconeum forgot Penguin in his reads list.

Curious why you felt we needed a new wagon here, and why you were asking for support rather than just making a case and trying to start one yourself?

If I remember right we had one wagon and no competing wagon so it felt like a good time for a new one. I had already been trying to get people to vote Iconeum at that point.

Coming back here, this stinks to high heaven to me. 1) There is no real explanation why Dunn is a bad wagon, just a desire to deflate the wagon. 2) SA was trying to feel out an Ico wagon in his previous post, but when no one bites he jumps on Gamma, where the momentum was starting to shift at this point. Very high Dunn-SA partner equity, which improving forecasts perhaps for Gamma.

If you don't agree with my take on Dunns exchange with Fun And Games then unfortunately you'd be right I don't have a reason to town read him because that's the most telling thing I've seen from Dunn aside from his comment that you called a soft claim. But let me clarify that it's not the wagon composition that I didn't like, it's my specific read on Dunn. I think he's townier than Gamma. So I preferred Gamma.

But I'm not really scumreading Gamma either.

Vote Iconeum

lol wut dafuq? (emphasis mine)

Is it unreasonable to believe Bingle that Gamma is going through RL things? Or is it unreasonable to believe RL can lead to apathy just as much as Gammas alignment could?

Wow, just ISOed Sleepless Assassin .... dude had an RVS-level vote on Ico out there until he determined the Dunn wagon was "bad" and he voted for Gamma.

>>insert Twitter red flag meme here<<

Interesting take. I didn't place an RVS vote in this game.

I'm not really sure what to do with the fact that like all of dunn/gamma/ico are pushing each other

If Dunn and Gamma are town and Ico is scum this would make sense.

I will say someone mentioned Gamma has some IRL shit going on, so I am taking that into consideration in reviewing my own read there.

This is funny after you questioned me for reevaluating my own Gamma read for the exact same reason.

Hitting submit before finishing because my phone is acting up

[Sleepless Assassin]

Actually I'm gonna finish later. With the kids screaming and yelling and wife talking to me it's taking like 20 minutes to read a post so I'm getting frustrated with it

[Sleepless Assassin]

VOTE: fun and games
based on page 37
they feel super manipulative

My eyes about popped out of my head in shock. I don't think you've mentioned this slot except to ask why they town read you. Can you go into more detail? I have a hard time seeing "manipulative" In skitter looking at Iconeums reads and not being able to make sense of them.

also I have scum pings from A50
nothing in particular I can point to but I'm not feeling it with him? I don't know how to describe it

Same tbh. It just feels like he's trying to get us to think or feel a certain way about his and there's some kind of hidden motivation for it but I don't know what or why. There are town reasons to do that and Almost50 would probably be the type to do those things so it's hard to pinpoint it without knowing what he's trying to do specifically.

Ok now I'm caught up lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sircakez I can see where skitter sounds confident and I can even see where that can be associated with scum because you don't second guess reads that you already know. But I think it's more likely skitter is just a strong player. You can see the same confidence from multiple players in this game. So while I can follow that logic I don't agree. What I'm still confused on is where you say she was manipulative on page 37

Preview edit: Oh ok. I see the answer to the above. Hmm. I don't know, I feel like that's a pretty normal way to interact with someone you're already scumreading.

[Sleepless Assassin]

This thread goes so quiet at night...

[Sleepless Assassin]

Europe?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I’m trying not to default to scumreading the little things from you given VPs point that I might be being less charitable than I should be irt your motivations though.

You shouldn't change your game because of me. I have zero experience with skitter, so maybe your approach is better, shrug.

I feel ok on F&G, though I will say that last time I played with Pooky, he was spitting fire at anyone and everyone, and he's being pretty quiet this game and letting skitter kind of drive the bus. I've poked at this a little bit throughout the game, and their answers seem reasonable enough. Still a notable shift for me, but whatever.

For what it's worth, that stood out to me too that skitter is doing a ton of the posting and it's kind of weird. But Pooky has been around more than long enough to not be scared to post as scum so I've mostly ignored it. They look town enough otherwise anyway.

[Sleepless Assassin]

@SC:

You gotta speed it up

If you are intentionally quoting Bucks fizz as a wine reference to tell us you're creating WIFOM, that's awesome. If not, ignore me.

Further, you later stated you were "not really scumreading Gamma"...so it just seems like a bizarre place to put a vote. Were you voting it only because it was a wagon with momentum?

Um? That quote came when I unvoted. So you have timing mixed up pretty badly. You seem think it was:
Townread Gamma --> Vote Gamma for a counterwagon to Dunn
It was more like:
Weak read on Gamma -> Vote Gamma for counterwagon -> Realize my reasons for voting him didn't actually make him scum -> unvote and say I'm not really scumreading him anymore.

How is that a better use of your energy than trying to convince people with a case to vote your top scumread of Ico?

I spent, what did you say 28 pages?, trying for Iconeum and was getting nothing. A Gamma wagon seemed more productive than continuing to waste my breath on what was turning out more and more to be a vanity Vote.

I said "RVS-level" vote. I understand it wasn't a true RVS in the sense that it was a joke. You made what appeared to be a serious vote. But it was also on like page 6 of the game right when RVS was sort of finishing. The fact you hadn't moved your vote from that point strikes me as somewhat scummy regardless of Ico's alignment. Vote camping is much more likely to come from scum than from town, who are lacking knowledge on whether their votes are correct.

Then you're massively underestimating my confidence in the read.

[Sleepless Assassin]

why do you quote posts like that

Like what

If you are intentionally quoting Bucks fizz as a wine reference to tell us you're creating WIFOM, that's awesome. If not, ignore me.

I knew it

[Sleepless Assassin]

VOTE: iconeum
I'm gonna throw my old townblock out the window and make a new one with

blackjack and hookers

cakez, enchant, f&g, and penguin at the center

what's up

Lmao why does my slot act like a genie and only appears when summoned

What did we used to call this? Wasn't it like the Amished tell or something? Is that still a thing?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm saying it's not really a reliable tell, some people just are upset they rep into a scummy town slot and can't undo the damage

And some people blame the person they replaced for poor play in order to attempt to wipe the slate clean and start over as if the slot is brand new. It's not a sure fire tell in my opinion but it has merit.

@sleepless, could i get you to explain your current view of this game? doesn't have to be long. a lot of your posts feel kinda, idk, i feel like my eyes are glazing over a lot of them.

Like a reads list or more events oriented kind of thing?

[Sleepless Assassin]

his is Sleepless' full case on Iconeum.

I'm legitimately surprised. I didn't know that

[Sleepless Assassin]

Read my ISO. I had to have mentioned them at least 20 times. Maybe 40 and you'd consider it a push. You aren't even trying to understand though. You're pushing a narrative.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Read my ISO. I had to have mentioned them at least 20 times. Maybe 40 and you'd consider it a push. You aren't even trying to understand though. You're pushing a narrative.

[Sleepless Assassin]

So it changed? A minute ago your issue was that I haven't been pushing Iconeum

[Sleepless Assassin]

So it changed? A minute ago your issue was that I haven't been pushing Iconeum

How are those different my guy? You did not push Ico. Which seems to be why you can't explain your case quickly.

Because it is not a real scum read.

A push is trying to get people to vote there and you read my ISO so you clearly see me asking people to join me or for thoughts on Iconeum.

So it changed? A minute ago your issue was that I haven't been pushing Iconeum

How are those different my guy? You did not push Ico. Which seems to be why you can't explain your case quickly.

Because it is not a real scum read.

A push is trying to get people to vote there and you read my ISO so you clearly see me asking people to join me or for thoughts on Iconeum.

Explained reasoning means you don't understand why I think he's scum. But you've read my ISO. So you know the original knee jerk "I've just read my Role PM and I'm gonna play this way" stuff you already quoted. You already know that I feel after he disappeared he avoided me after I voted him and tried to get people to join me. You already know that the fact that Dunn and Gamma wagons took off but Iconeum had verbal support without votes made me feel like he had buddies not wanting to vote him. And you already know I don't like his replacement coming in and talking down at his play.

So yeah you saying I haven't pushed for Iconeum or I can't have a real read on him sounds like an excuse to vote for the guy who called you/Iconeum scum on I believe you said it was Page 6 and wouldn't let it go. You don't want to waste a NK on me because you think you can beat me in a 1v1. You figure you have more charisma and flair so here we are.

The way you've addressed me really doesn't sound like you're trying to figure anything out. You're not talking to me, you're talking at me or about me. You've decided what direction you're going in and you just want to make sure people see what you see.

Iconeum/VP/Almost50 team. I will be bragging post game.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I mean he does have other reads, i guess i'm just not convinced that the fact that he didnt reallh expound on the ico read makes him scum

Pedit ugh i think this is a tvt >.>
~ skitter

I've been pointing things out as they come up. His burst style posting made it rare, but my points are ones I truly believe in.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I mean he does have other reads, i guess i'm just not convinced that the fact that he didnt reallh expound on the ico read makes him scum

Pedit ugh i think this is a tvt >.>
~ skitter

I've been pointing things out as they come up. His burst style posting made it rare, but my points are ones I truly believe in.

Lemme ask you this, who do you think has been pushing Ico more, you or Datisi?

Me.

Why would Ico's posting style affect your ability to push him?

I can't imagine it would. If you'd read my post you'd see I said his burst style posting made it rare that new things would come up.

In both Micro 880 and Open 740, SA was town and quite liberally cast his vote around early in the game.

Hasn't it been like two years since I played a game? Lol.

Town is easy to play because you don't have that worry hanging over your head. SA doesn't have that easy breezy feeling now. He's relying on "read my iso" to defend his position.

I'm making the point that you can't possibly be reading it and believing what you're saying. All I've done is push Iconeum to the point that you could accuse me of tunneling and I'd even argue that you've somewhat made that accusation. But at the same time you're saying I haven't pushed or haven't given reasons. So I gave you a chance to go back and look and see how hilariously wrong you are. But you didn't. So I gave a summary and now you're pretending it's not there.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Hasn't it been like two years since I played a game? Lol.

Only looking at your most recent games. Didn't even look at the date on them. Still, why so stingy with your vote here?

Because there was no reason to come off of my strongest scum read except the brief Gamma maybe being scum and being wagoned moment.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Why not vote me or A50?

I'm more sure on Iconeum and there's more support. I don't see any reason to switch.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't see how VP can still believe any of that after our whole exchange

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't see how VP can still believe any of that after our whole exchange

You mean when you got super defensive and couldn't explain your case without me quoting it back to you?

So my response that that wasn't my case and then the points I rehashed for you after you refused to acknowledge them just... didn't happen? Or?

This is what it's been like interacting with you. You decide things are one way and no matter what I say, your incorrect version is still the way it is.

[Sleepless Assassin]

If ico wasn’t getting support for an elimination, who was the scum driving that?

That's a Day 2 question but probably someone pushing Dunn and/or Gamma or the people who said they might vote him later but didn't when I wanted them too (although skitter and Datisi did go on to.vote Iconeum later so they did follow through) or Almost50 because he had zero interest in having that conversation with me.

Given that he lurked into replacement, do you really think “He’s scum avoiding me” is a better explanation than “He’s busy Irl?” Did you look at his activity elsewhere on the site?

That would explain what you are telling people I said, sure. What it doesn't explain is what I actually said. He was here and made like 15 posts in a row and none of it acknowledged the only person voting him.

Can you remind me what it was about his tone you didn’t like?

Tone? I don't know, that's not really something I'm good at reading into. It's hard to try to explain your version of my case rather than my own.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Oh wow. That was Bingle. I gotta process

[Sleepless Assassin]

Maybe I'm not communicating right because I can't see both intentionally having it wrong what I'm trying to say and what I'm not.

[Sleepless Assassin]

As far as the questions go: the first one is pretty relevant, given that your position is "Ico is scum because scum were driving the elimination elsewhere." I'd expect at least some amount of looking to see if scum were in fact driving the wagon elsewhere

It's more a general feel kind of thing. Figuring out who specifically is doing it makes more sense once it's proven to be a correct theory. But I gave my guesses in the post where I thought you were VP.

The second one is also relevant. Why would Ico have responded to a vote on him as a player of either alignment with limited time when said player wasn't attempting to engage and there was a player who was? Like... Your complaint becomes entirely meaningless with basic context. What post of yours did you specifically expect Ico to respond to?

I know it's been a while but I remember it being pretty standard to be expected to address suspicion on you and I doubt site meta has changed THAT much. So if he didn't understand why I was voting him he should have asked. But my second post I followed up on the vote. And any of them after that where I said something about his posts. I wouldn't expect him to respond if I used his name directed at someone else.

How would you describe:
Some Dude In Seattle wrote:
the original knee jerk "I've just read my Role PM and I'm gonna play this way" stuff
if not as a tonal read?

I'm not sure. Not tone. Maybe psychological?

Also please include links to the post you're quoting at the very least if you're going to insist on handtyping the quote tags instead of using the board function. I had to go back and make sure you weren't responding to VP saying almost the same things as me and someone paying a little bit less attention might not have realized you'd responded to them at all.

How do I do that? I'm new to my phone. It's an android one. Galaxy S something if that makes a difference.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Now that I go back and read calmly, Bingles post does like more calm and question oriented than VPs had. But VP not understanding me may be more on me than I realized. I need to rethink my VP read yet again.

[Sleepless Assassin]

How do I do that? I'm new to my phone. It's an android one. Galaxy S something if that makes a difference.

phone quoting is hard, but you can highlight a piece of text and click the quote button to quote just that highlighted text. you can also just quote the entire post and respond below it so the reference materials are at least there.

That scares me though because I can't just stay on one tab so I worry about losing a post.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'll try to remember that. Thanks.

[Sleepless Assassin]

[quote="Bingle" 1305"]
alternatively, you can include[/quote]

Test

Hmm. Help?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sorry I'm so old I once tried to print a video

[Sleepless Assassin]

i am talking about post 666

1308

Does this work?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I can do them like that from now on when I remember

[Sleepless Assassin]

Too fancy lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

Datisi,

Iconeum- I think I've covered this at length but I think only a green flip would be enough to convince me this slot isn't scum. He didn't post often but when he did something always stood out. He entered the game answering a simple "what is your alignment " with "I'm sad" rather than simply saying he's town and it just got worse from there. Came back to not acknowledge anything said about him. Then Darby coming in and talking down Iconeums play doesn't look good either

VP Baltar - Right since the beginning there had been little things that make me feel like he's scum but it's not enough to push that feeling over the edge. In the interaction with me, it felt like he had the motive of calling me scum rather than figure out my stances or reasons for them. The mixup where I thought he made Bingles post has me second guessing this but on reflection Bingles post had differences I should have noticed and I think I just had carried over frustration when reading that post from dealing with VP up to this point. I'm not as confident as I was but I still wouldn't be surprised if VP was scum here.

Not Mafia - It's probably outdated as hell but the way to read him used to be as town he'd have little moments of one liner reasoning and trying to find and vote scum. As scum he'd meme post or just flat out not say anything. If this is still the case this is his classic scum game. I'd shoot him as vig.

Almost50- like I said before he is obviously playing WIFOM games with everyone and trying to play a certain way to make us think certain things about him. I don't know what it is or why. Someone said he's trying to look like a power role. I don't want to speculate on whether he actually is one but my big thing is why prioritize that over scumhunting and discussion like he's started to do. He was pretty involved early on and I know he can be a strong player. So it's weird. Also could see him as a buddy to Iconeum.

Gamma- It's kind of hard to say. I'm still ok with a compromise on him for Day 1 if absolutely needed but I don't see anything all that telling in his play. Like I said before, his apathy towards being wagoned once it was explained seemed logical. But it doesn't make him town either. This read is a straight "idk" read.

Penguin - I don't like that he's added his vote to every big wagon and not contributed a whole lot to the discussions on those players' alignments but he says he likes wagons and cares more about wagon composition on Day 1, I assume for later analysis. So I think I'm reserving judgement until later.

Bingle - I didn't like him just talking setup early on but I suppose it's normal for him. He eventually came in with reads and later with reasons and while I do somewhat worry his reads seem to go with the flow too much, he seems to believe them and want to understand everyone's points of view and make his own clear. Thinking town for now.

Enchant - seems to be sticking to what he believes and not lettingmothers tell him how to play or vote. Doesn't seem willing to explain which is annoying but more likely a playstyle thing. (Auto correct made playstyle say playtime and I almost didn't notice so of this post or any others say something weird ask me because that probably happened)

Dunn- Until he was wagoned his play felt very interested in other people as opposed to himself so while he didn't use a lot of words I think his mentality was on finding scum rather than how he's coming off. I know I've said it over and over but he came out of the Fun And Games exchange looking town in my eyes. It's also worth noting he didn't have interest in voting Gamma and he feels like a player who wouldn't be ashamed to vote opportunistically as scum.

Sircakez - I know at one point I stopped townreading people for questioning town reads on them because so many people were faking that tell for townpoints, but he feels more genuine in doing that here. I also like that he's got some unpopular opinions. It makes them seem more like real reads.

Fun and Games (skitter30 & PookyTheMagicalBear) - Iso is full of hard questioning and solid stances. This isn't a slot that I'd expect to catch as scum on Day 1. There is absolutely no reason for me not to town read them.

Datisi - I can follow a very detailed thought process. If you're scum, you should take up an acting career. I'm not ruling it out because it's Day 1 and I don't have a single town read I'd bet real money on but you're my strongest town read and I'm pretty confident in it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

also, sidenote: i find it interesting how both baltar and sleepless are accusing ico of being scum with the other. i don't know what that *means* exactly, but it's something

1335
Wait did VP say I'm scum with Iconeum? I missed that. That's actually really surprising.

___________

Ugh. Are those really Pookys reads? You're supposed to be obvtown

[Sleepless Assassin]

also, sidenote: i find it interesting how both baltar and sleepless are accusing ico of being scum with the other. i don't know what that *means* exactly, but it's something

1335
Wait did VP say I'm scum with Iconeum? I missed that. That's actually really surprising.

___________

Ugh. Are those really Pookys reads? You're supposed to be obvtown

1380
Forgot this

[Sleepless Assassin]

I think I’ll be more proactive once I can work from a flip

I guess I'm just used to seeing more proactive solving from town!you in every completed game I've played with you in my recent memory and here you're just using a rando excuse that I remember using as scum once upon a time.

Was he proactive on Day 1 in those games or just in general over the course of the game? And how recent?
Was he proactive on Day 1 in thos

[Sleepless Assassin]

this one just ended:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88043


also examples:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87498
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87397
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=87412

Was he proactive on Day 1 in those or just generally speaking?

I'll go check dates I suppose

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm also curious if he was wagoned on Day 1 in any of them

[Sleepless Assassin]

1394

[Sleepless Assassin]

Boop

[Sleepless Assassin]

imagine asking a hydra to actually sync up their reads

1419

That was my thought too but I really hope he meant something else.

I think a wagon formed on me in Gensokyo and I had a pretty serious push on me in Radio Buzz but no wagon

1428
Do you feel you were more proactive there Day 1? Did you respond similarly to that wagon compared to the one here? I kind of hoped skitter would respond when I asked but your point of view is worth asking about too.

[Sleepless Assassin]

It's not but... meh. I don't think I'm gonna gain anything pressing further.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok good enough. I see it now

[Sleepless Assassin]

imagine asking a hydra to actually sync up their reads

1419

That was my thought too but I really hope he meant something else.

Why do you hope I meant something else (hint: I did not)?

1443
Two people having the exact same reads isn't likely unless the reads are fake. You accused me of having fake reads so I figured you'd understand this.

[Sleepless Assassin]

ok ok ok baltar now that you are here i need your professional opinion on something

so i saw this post:

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on [datisi] now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

this post struck me as kinda townie. maybe i'm wrong on that beign townie bc trying to placate your pushers is a thing sometimes but this tone and timing just seemed *too* placate-y it circled around into town

however, this post:

But shouldn’t that be a d2+ thing? This logic seems weird.

seemed to be hedgy shady bullshit and i don't like it

discuss

I get what you're saying on the placating. I've been trying to determine how I feel about his "well I'm probably the yeet today, oh well" posting. I've been internally debating whether DArby is cunning enough to fake that as scum.

1453
Why's it have to be fake if he's scum?

True enough, although I've seen (been in) hydra's where the dynamic is that one of the players takes lead and the other is functionally a sanity check, which leads to a single reads list and a primary member of the hydra.

1454

True I could see that. I thought VP wanted them to have the same reads though.

As a hydra, you can have disputes internally, but post with agreed upon reads.

The reason it is scum-helpful is because then in the future if anyone questions them over a read, they can just point to the other hydra head and say "well I didn't agree with that".

But if one fakes a read to match the other, especially if they were asked to do so, couldn't they still do this just without the transparency because we didn't see where they disagreed? Oh, 1455

[Sleepless Assassin]

What's your issue with them? With the obvious exception of VP being below Pengy I see nothing egregious there.

1468

It feels like rehashing general consensus.

[Sleepless Assassin]

The cum reads specifically. They are the three players who got the biggest wagons

[Sleepless Assassin]

Scum*

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unpopylar opinion, no scum has wagoned today otherwise i would be on chopping block already.

Can you walk me through this? It sounds like you're saying scum have spread their votes around otherwise they'd be voting you, is that right?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Enchant they could just figure they can swing it their way. If you're right, it really just means gamma/dunn/Darby aren't scum together right?
1500

[Sleepless Assassin]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DArby

Feel like this is going to be the most informative yeet and I'm bored with this day.

What would you get if I flipped either alignment?

I think if you flip town, it probably puts SA in a worse light in particular. I'd also want to look at your wagon composition over time and see who was pushing it without being super committed.

If you flip scum, that's a whole other ball of yarn to untangle, and I probably won't tip my hand at this point ahead of a night kill.

The good news with your flip is that lots of people have interacted with Ico or talked a good amount about him, so there are connections to look at there.

You said I didn't push Iconeum enough and now if he flips town I get what looks like the "town should always be right on Day 1 hard pushes" treatment?

I also don't like holding onto what you think if he flips scum. I understand if it's just not where you want to put your energy on Day 1. But if you're town who is holding onto it to avoid being NKd, those thoughts dying with you if they're really as accurate as you seem to think, is worse than losing you as a player in this game. Of course if you're scum, disregard

[Sleepless Assassin]

Then if it’s meta, I can’t argue for or against. For now I’ll trust it.

VOTE: Dunn

I thought I remembered you townreading Dunn but can't find it in your ISO so maybe I was just wrong. Or thinking of your read on Gamma and confusing it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

V/LA today

I know it's not a crazy ton to read but I still don't think I'll get a chance to do it until tomorrow

[Sleepless Assassin]

But if you're town who is holding onto it to avoid being NKd, those thoughts dying with you if they're really as accurate as you seem to think, is worse than losing you as a player in this game.

Why in the world should I spill info now that helps scum plan? I don't think my thoughts are more valuable than anyone else's, so if I die, oh well. I'm certainly not going to give up info that helps scum play off my own speculation in the case it is wrong.

By that logic don't share any reads ever.

____________.

Fun and Games vs Gamma didn't change a ton for me. It looks like Fun and Games saying why they suspect Gamma and Gamma getting upset . What does stand out:
-Gamma getting upset now when he didn't seem to care he almost died earlier. Not sure this means anything but it stood out
-Gamma seeming to at the same time have strong opinions and care a lot while forgetting details and saying he would rather lose and have fun than win and not. It feels contradictory but again I don't see scum motivation in that.
-Why do I feel like I'd be scum reading Pooky if not for being in a hydra with skitter. Ahhh my brain lol.
-I wasn't gonna say anything but Bingle already did and scum is never killing Gamma anyway. I also noticed a long time ago Gamma "spewed non PR" . So that's why I've been so willing to compromise on him.

-------------------

Maybe im biased but I'm... like... blinking in disbelief at darby this page. I didn't understand him voting Dunn in the first place but if he believed in it enough to make the vote, I'd think he'd do a better job explaining it and not just go "yeah that was dumb lol" and switch off of it. Then he goes to Gamma because he didn't like his own Dunn vote but with zero interest on the case being made against Gamma. I mean to some extent I understand self preservation and an approaching deadline, but shouldn't there be some original tbought and actual reasons for preference on who dies Day 1?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Fun and Games vs Gamma didn't change a ton for me. It looks like Fun and Games saying why they suspect Gamma and Gamma getting upset . What does stand out:
-Gamma getting upset now when he didn't seem to care he almost died earlier. Not sure this means anything but it stood out
-Gamma seeming to at the same time have strong opinions and care a lot while forgetting details and saying he would rather lose and have fun than win and not. It feels contradictory but again I don't see scum motivation in that.
-Why do I feel like I'd be scum reading Pooky if not for being in a hydra with skitter. Ahhh my brain lol.
-I wasn't gonna say anything but Bingle already did and scum is never killing Gamma anyway. I also noticed a long time ago Gamma "spewed non PR" . So that's why I've been so willing to compromise on him.

This reads like you're more suspicious of the F&G side of things, but more willing to vote Gamma.

I don't want to vote either. But Gamma does look better than Pooky in that exchange so it makes sense you'd see it that way. Overall I still think the Fun and Games slot is townier. Consider it more of a "my eyes are open" moment on that slot than a scum read. Gamma I still think is town too just not with a ton of confidence. I think Darby is the only scum who is viable today.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Fun and Games vs Gamma didn't change a ton for me. It looks like Fun and Games saying why they suspect Gamma and Gamma getting upset . What does stand out:
-Gamma getting upset now when he didn't seem to care he almost died earlier. Not sure this means anything but it stood out
-Gamma seeming to at the same time have strong opinions and care a lot while forgetting details and saying he would rather lose and have fun than win and not. It feels contradictory but again I don't see scum motivation in that.
-Why do I feel like I'd be scum reading Pooky if not for being in a hydra with skitter. Ahhh my brain lol.
-I wasn't gonna say anything but Bingle already did and scum is never killing Gamma anyway. I also noticed a long time ago Gamma "spewed non PR" . So that's why I've been so willing to compromise on him.

This reads like you're more suspicious of the F&G side of things, but more willing to vote Gamma.

I don't want to vote either. But Gamma does look better than Pooky in that exchange so it makes sense you'd see it that way. Overall I still think the Fun and Games slot is townier. Consider it more of a "my eyes are open" moment on that slot than a scum read. Gamma I still think is town too just not with a ton of confidence. I think Darby is the only scum who is viable today.

So you are willing to vote there strictly because you think scum won't eliminate Gamma?

No. I'd vote there as last resort because it's possible I'm wrong and even if I'm not, the risk is less than with others. But what I said in my last post stands that I don't want to vote Gamma.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I didn't see anything I needed cleared up from either one of them

[Sleepless Assassin]

What exactly was the new information again that made you scumnread Gamma? When you changed your vote, it seemed more about getting off of Dunn than on Gamma.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Skitter just seems rational and seems to be saying a lot that I can follow and agree with. Pooky I tend to agree with Gamma that the reads are mostly low hanging fruit, scumreading those who are viable eliminations today.

As for a town case on Gamma, no I really don't have one. It's mainly the lack of anything making him scum combined with the push on him that makes me lean town.

[Sleepless Assassin]

What about the push on him makes you think town? Are you scumreading A50/me strongly enough that you think the wagon is tainted? Do you think the lack of anyone interested is town indicative?

Usually when nullish reads get wagoned it's either a sign they're either town or I'm completely wrong and my ego doesn't want me to be wrong lol.

I'm scumreading Almoat50 but not you.

Not sure what you mean by lack of anyone interested.

Also, I’d argue that to one degree or another 2/3 of these names are lhf-ish. At a certain point saying “you’re going after lhf” becomes synonymous with “you’re pushing scummy people.”

Fuck, to not be going after low hanging fruit you’d be pushing a PoE of me/f+g/VP/Dats. Everyone else seems pretty minimal impact from where I sit.

Well sure that's one way to take it. But Pookys scum reads are the three being wagoned. It feels too easy. Like not one of gamma/darby/Dunn is town and there's no scum outside of that?

[Sleepless Assassin]

My bad on the phrasing Pooky. I can see where that looks like I expect you to have a team solve. I don't. It just feels like shallow hunting is all.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Boop

[Sleepless Assassin]

Like how is it even reasonable for you to think that I think I have an exact team solve on day 1 with 0 flips?

I mean… there have been like 4 different cases of people saying it’s scummy that someone doesn’t have a viable team this game and I’ve thought it was ridiculous every single time.

Yeah that would be insanely impressive lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

Not sure what you mean by lack of anyone interested.

I’ve been actively campaigning for a gamma elimination for a literal week. There are two votes on gamma. Prior to that there were 4 votes: you who were voting there as a compromise and pp who was technically a player in this game I guess.

Maybe im wrong but it's felt like there's been a lot of support for Gamma, Dunn, and Darby and the struggle is just getting people to all agree at the same time which one to vote . I don't feel like generally speaking there's more resistance than support on any of those three .

[Quote="Sircakez]
I don't think either of these reads hold up when you consider how good these players are as scum[/quote]

This is a conversation for later in the game but I hear you.

____________

For what it's worth I took Datisis Sircakez vote as looking for Sircakez reaction in order to strengthen a read. Personally, I thought he made it too clear that his vote was a reaction test to get enough out of it but maybe he's gaining something from this late reaction anyway? But the only way I can see anyone scumreading Datisi for it is if they think he's just posturing.

__________.

Bingle why do you still seem to think I want Pooky to have the whole game solved on Day 1? I clarified a few pages ago that I didn't mean that as a whole team solve kind of thing, just that his scum reads felt lazy.

[Sleepless Assassin]

What exactly was the new information again that made you scumnread Gamma? When you changed your vote, it seemed more about getting off of Dunn than on Gamma.

I’m not doing a full recap but Gamma is getting too heated for a position she cannot defend and one where everything she’s posted in arguing has been easily shot down.

Maybe its the vagueness but I'm having trouble following this. I'll read the big post in a sec though.

- i believe we were scumreading them before their wagons iirc

I'll have to check this because it would make me feel better if that's the case.

_________

Actually let me come back to Darbys big post later when I'm only doing this and not multitasking

[Sleepless Assassin]

Darby, meh, I think I can understand that actually. I don't really agree but that shows a thought process I can follow.

Datisi, that's kind of exactly what I meant by reaction test though where you say you wanted to see his new posts after the vote. And the part about you'd do it as scum to look like organically acquiring reads is what inwas getting at with posturing. I feel like we're just using different terms to say the same thing . Oh and I'm jealous of your sleep. I have 8 hours in the last two nights combined which is sadly an improvement over the past couple of weeks.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm not going to bastardize the game, sadly, but I

am

confirmed town by virtue of just being in the game.

I plan on coasting for a bit until I am up to speed.

See? I told you all this slot was town

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm not going to bastardize the game, sadly, but I

am

confirmed town by virtue of just being in the game.

I plan on coasting for a bit until I am up to speed.

See? I told you all this slot was town

Fine. I now am a believer. Please tell us WHO is Scum. Name just ONE.

Darby

[Sleepless Assassin]

Had Thanksgiving today and another tomorrow. I'm skimming along somewhat but haven't really read or digested what's gone on today

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bingle do you really think Almost50 as scum wouldn't fake not knowing the scum roles?

----------

Something about Andante being so sure of his 3/4 rubs me the wrong way. I can kind of see it in the heat of a big moment and she did just replace in. But to keep pressing it just seems like too much. Also not a fan of "cop should check me ". Seems like trying too hard to tell us she's town.

_____________

I'm still not caught up so if I missed something that's why

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok don't go ending the day before I can read up.

I was upset Gamma didn't become a universal town read on Darbys flip but I was gonna vote Almost50 so I guess I wasn't any better.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Okay all caught up.

So Day 2 I was gonna say at daystar Dunn (now Toog) and Gamma are probably town with Gammas flip. And I was gonna say two scum in Almost50/Dwlee/VP/Bingle. Now I see that Almost50 is dead and the rest of my scum possibilities are basically the end of day 1 Gamma wagon which is weird but also not insanely surprising.

So end of Day 1 I mentioned Andante feeling too confident about catching scum right away. It's also a little weird how Andante seems to think I'd basically just bus Iconeum all Day 1 if I was scum. Maybe the overconfidence is a playstyle thing though. I don't know. And the other thing could easily be just not reading the thread.

The other thing from end of Day 1, skitter almost seemed to know Darby was flipping scum. I pushed that slot longer than anyone and even I had a moment of "man I hope this is right" before clicking the spoiler and seeing red. I hate that I'm doubting this slot because I really wanted to say town especially when they felt willing to help me push Iconeum early on.

I still think Enchant is town. Like I said early in this post I still think Toog is town. For now I lean town on Andante, Bingle, and weirdly enough VP pending something. That leaves Fun and Games and Dwlee but I don't really have any kind of smoking gun case kind of thing on Dwlee which is where I'd lean for a vote.

And if you need a hypoclaim for cop results, mine is innocent on Gamma N1. Isn't it fun that I missed Day 2?

[Sleepless Assassin]

The other thing from end of Day 1, skitter almost seemed to know Darby was flipping scum.

Can you expand on this. What are you seeing that's making you feel this way?

If darby flips scum though, that's likely dats confirmtown. If Gamma is scum as well, today was a complete cluster fuck for the red jerseys

kinda sounds like baltar scum tsk tsking at his soon to be fallen comrades :3

This felt like knowing Darbys flip before it came. With the smilie maybe it's a joke I didn't read as on right away, but it looks like partner hunting too soon if not.

Can you please explain to me why you called me maybe town in this post? You had been absolutely hounding me and calling me scum right up until this moment, and I don't understand why you shifted your perspective there.

When Bingle posted and I thought it was you and I called out all these motives in that post, I realized my frustration with you made me see things that maybe weren't there.

i mean i didn't know, he was just my biggets scumread

~ skitter

Mine too but I'd want to see a flip before I started sounding all "I told you so" about it. I relate to feeling that way, but not until I saw the flip.

[Sleepless Assassin]

like i said we were p confident that he was flipping scum
if you want to post that we're partners with him i'd like you to explain our entire day1 interactions where we spent most of the day pushing him

~ skitter

That's fair. Bussing is a thing that happens but I'd have to look close before convincing myself whether you actually did or not.

Preview edit: No, VP, that was my reply to you

[Sleepless Assassin]

Preview edit: No, VP, that was my reply to you

haha, I'm saying my question was to Andante...that's who I was quoting, not you.

But thank you for answering!

Oh lol. OK, I saw it after a question to me, thought it was a follow up, and it fit me so well I never second guessed

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm guessing scum thought Almost50 was a power role who was townread universally enough that he made sense as a NK.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I dunno. I felt like VP was equally confident on Gamma so I wasn't really thinking anything of it. I went back and Skitter sounded confident Gamma was flipping scum too. So I'm starting to think there's not anything to all that.

[Sleepless Assassin]

For what it's worth Iconeums first vote is on VP asking if he's scum which is a weird position to put a buddy in so early. But...

Would it be wrong to townblock Datisi/Icon/VP already?

do you have any particular reasoning behind these 3 names?

Isn't this weird knowing Iconeum was scum, Datisi was town, and Iconeum was voting VP? I wish I'd asked Iconeum why he wanted to know this.

But overall it looks like he's treating Datisi and VP similarly in his ISO and Datisi was town. Just lightly implying they are for sure scum. Not sure how to describe it. But I don't see the differences you'd expect between a town player and buddy. It's like he sees them interchangeably.

yes but you see little glimmers of towniness eventually when he is town

just gotta give it some time

has there ever been a game where the 2 of you don't scumread me? ever?

This seems like legitimate annoyance at a real read. I do have to admit 927 gives me weird vibes though. Like trying to get Friends and Games a little town cred on a Datisi town flip where Datisi would get nothing from a Friend's and Games scum flip. I don't see why you'd say this about two townies as scum unless it's to duplicate town play which I don't feel Iconeum was doing a whole lot of.

---------

516 517 518 519520 is a string that feels like opportunistic shade at Dunn and Enchant, implying those slots are town. I'm not confirmation biasing, right? Does that like that way to everyone else?

Townie
A50 prob town, really reading like his previous game recently
SirC
Bingle

Varying degrees of nullishness
Datisi
Not_Maf
SA
Enchant

Scummy
Dunn
GE
VP
Fun and Games

Oh yeah the reads list. I noted that he forgot Penguin. It's hard for scum to forget partners and I can't see him leaving off a buddy on purpose. Andante is probably town. Bingle in the townie pile with two dead town means he either listed all town there or Bingle is the buddy he put an obvtown read on. Not_Mafia and Enchant on the null list are a good place to look too. Interesting that he threw shade on Enchant just to list him as null. I've town read Enchant all game but I can see that being buddy interaction. Meh he follows up on Bingle a couple posts later and doesn't seem to overjustify. Maybe its just Not_Mafia and Enchant?

I'll look at Darby another time but from Iconeum, associatives point to Not_Mafia and Enchant and away from VP, Andante and Dunn. Hard to tell on Friends and Games and Bingle.

Preview edit:
Lol the timing Toog

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok looking at Darbys ISO.

Right away, I see what Toog pointed out about Enchant. Darby calls Enchant town and lumps Enchant and Almost50 together but for no reason, later lumping in Gamma as well. It's hard to see all three as town and two have already flipped. Also worth noting that when Penguin presses for reasoning on the Enchant and Almost50 reads, Darby seems to be more describing Almost50 than Enchant here:

I can try. A50 and Enchant stand out to me as players that play the game less “seriously” then others but I think would still try to play their roles. Skimming through their arguments feels like natural reactions to the game. A50 specifically played similar to this in Squid Game with me and came out as town iirc.

After that quote, 1179 1180 and 1181 offer more follow up on Almost50 and Gamma that we never get about Enchant. Any difference between how flipped scum treats town reads who have flipped town and town reads who are still living, is notable.

Next thing that stands out is more interaction with Penguin than you'd expect considering how little Penguin was actually here. First instinct is to see if it looks like Penguin as a buddy prompting Darby to talk and get into the game. And some of the questioning almost gives off that vibe. But not when you realize Penguin was voting the slot and likely wanted a new line of questioning after the replacement. And Iconeum forgetting Penguin was even in the game when he made a reads list is probably more telling anyway.

1188 seems to have the same "ugh don't scum read me" vibes towards Fun and Games that Iconeum displayed. While it

could

be annoyance at being bussed, I still lean towards it being someone worried town is after them because of the emotion Iconeum showed.

If scum!Gamma wanted to make a wagon and cause a mislim she wouldn't show her bias against VP. Rather, he made a case against VP for personal reasons that have a natural buildup. This isn't something that would be directly town-indicative. This feels like genuine emotion that could discredit Gamma down the line, which I don't think he'd want as scum. Given my limited experience, I'm willing to give this behavior a townread.

I'm reading this more times than I should have to because it seems to contradict my point that Iconeum/VP didn't make sense as a team. This feels like it's just as much about discrediting Gammas VP read as it is townreading Gamma which just feels so off. Maybe its nit intentional but if it is it looks really bad for VP. But looking at games tate, it was more important for Darby to take a stance on Gamma and maybe that's just what Darby latched on to in order to give Gamma a town read and not look too opportunistic. It's hard to decide on this but it's something that's gonna be in my head. 1401 he does make a comment against Datisi for voting sitcakez though and we know sircakez was town. So that's a thing.

I townread you mainly because I feel your dissonance between yourselves is genuine

Sounds more like appeasing town who is pushing him than giving a buddy a cheap town read, especially after openly saying he figured he's dying today.

F&G, VP, Datsi are all town from the last few posts I've seen.
Bingle and Gamma are null, where posts feels less solve focus and more expaniding on things already said.

Rule of three would implicate Fun and Games or VP. I'm not so sure though. VP if anything but meh. The weird thing is the nulls. Sure, scrap the town read on Gamma in case you have to vote there for self preservation. But that's a weird first mention of Bingle. Just to call him null as one of five players to give a read on.

The Dunn vote is obviously a terrible attempt to kill town instead of himself. I think he chose town because he didn't want to be called out for reversing a town read on Gamma. The switch to Gamma comes after he realizes the Dunn vote is just as bad. At this point its anything to get a green flip over his own.

Give me a few and I'll summarize all this and look at his final reads list

[Sleepless Assassin]

Datisi, Bingle, and F/G are towny because of how their progression has changed given the circumstances and have been pro town.

VP is town on a conditional Gamma flipping red.

I feel your play is so brash it can’t come from scum.

I keep my Enchant and A50 reads.

Gamma is still scum.

Null reads from Cakez and Dwlee but lurker scum could be in here?

I dunno who I forgot but those are my gut reads without any proof.

Ok so what stands out right away is how Bingle was elevated right from null to town. Zero reasoning on what changed.

There's also awkward phrasing on Enchant who is still lumped with Almost50. "I keep my read" rather than simply saying town. Why the awkwardness around that?

Dwelee and sircakez being "maybe scum " and sircakez being town leaves dwelee as a possibility as well.

And he forgot dunn/toog so likely town.

______________

Summarizing the associatives to this slot in order of most likely partners:

Enchant - Implicated by both ISOs. Iconeum threw shade, never followed up, then listed Enchant as null. Darby had a strong but never explained town read and awkward phrasing on it later on.

Bingle - they both had Bingle in the town pile without doing a good job of explaining why. Darby even bumped Bingle up from a weird inclusion in a null list to town and didn't say why.

Dwelee - I know there isn't a ton here because Not_Mafia didn't give us much and Dwelee came near the end of Darbys game but this fits with both reads lists.

VP - So there's a lot and some of it can be taken either way but I lean towards VP not being scum with this slot

Fun and Games - A little bit of the same as VP but the town stuff seems stronger than VP's. I think both were frustrated they couldn't convince Fun and Games they were town.

Andante - I'm convinced Iconeum genuinely forgot about Penguin in his reads list which makes them an unlikely partner. Darbys associatives don't look much stronger here.

Toog - Darby was pretty clearly trying to shift us to Dunn Day 1. I don't read it as bussing in any way.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Enchant why did you like never talk about Iconeum or Darby until your hammer? When you were voting me for "first post" In which I voted Iconeum, what did you think was scummy about my Iconeum vote?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Dwelee did you ever consider asking about the Darby wagon? I don't really see any opinions from you until you voted Gamma.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bingle,

Did your Iconeum read ever evolve past this?

Ico I don’t really have a read on, nor do I expect to. I’m vaguely hoping someone else comes along and tells me his alignment so I don’t have to figure it out

I lost it but you also had a quote where you said you felt "In limbo" waiting for Datisis read on Iconeum. Why did you put so much stock in letting others read Iconeum?

Also when did you gain confidence in Gamma scum? You didn't seem sure when you voted and I'm having trouble following the trajectory. It feels like you went from "meh let's sort this" straight to "he's probably scum " but then you were the one who informed me his apathy in this game may be due to RL. And then in your words "actively campaigning for a gamma elimination for a literal week". It just feels all over the place.

I think this is more "ew" than the ew Bingle gave me:

I don't particularly dislike an Ico elim, I just don't feel that he's the obvscum other people seem to think he is.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm skimming Datisis ISO because he was the N1 kill and he focused a lot on ammonium and Enchant early on including this little call out:

I like style of posting, feels familiar.

as far as i know, your only game with iconeum was that where he was scum, so what does this mean?

I'm struggling to keep focus on this at nearly 1:30am so I'll probably come back to it when I can. But I don't see Datisi letting up on Enchant mechanics I hadn't remembered that before . He was also pretty hard on VP and spent quite some time voting Dunn.

Ok I've spent too much time on this today. I need to rest.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Dwelee and Enchants replies both disappoint me. Not in a sunny way though. More a "I can see that but it's lazy and doesn't give me info" way.

Bingle - they both had Bingle in the town pile without doing a good job of explaining why. Darby even bumped Bingle up from a weird inclusion in a null list to town and didn't say why.

This is probably your spiciest read, so I'm interested. Bingle was being pretty universally town read at that point. Wouldn't scum also come up with weak reasons for a town read so as to not go too much against the popular opinion? Especially an inexperienced scum player?

I can see that side of it. The biggest thing though, from Darby, why go out of your way in a list of only five reads to call Bingle null first?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Lazy is the wrong word in Dwelees case because he had just replaced in. But for game purposes its the same idea. I understand it, but it doesn't help any

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm back in Datisis Iso and this would be concerning to a pretty widely town read scum player:

re bingle's 1196: right, thanks. it's just that i feel like i got a townread on you there very early on, compared to here i didn't. maybe it's those three effort cases you posted early game there.

I know Datisi wasn't pushing Bingle as scum or anything up to this point, but if Bingle is scum he'd see Datisi as a thorn in his side asking a lot of questions and not giving out a free town read. If the team is Enchant/Bingle, a Datisi NK absolutely had to happen for them.

at this point in time - i do Not want to vote myself, baltar, you, pp, a50 (should i be getting worried about his shitposting?), bingle (kinda good vibes but don't quote me on that), and sleepless (kinda sorta, mulling vp's case over, and wanna see what he comes back with)

i noticed cakez has been kinda doing Less as the time is passing by and i'm not sure i'm a fan

all of n_m / dunn / enchant are voteable if we need a yeet, + enchant is doing even less recently than before so i'm even more tempted to just get that out of the way early

and then darby and gamma, still not impressed with the first one and gamma has fallen off a bit in the recent times

will finish reading, look at a few isos, then figure out where to vote

Worth noting that VP as scum would have been comfortable keeping Datisi alive after this. Looks like the VP town read grew a ton after this too.. Enchant definitely wouldn't. Nothing else really changes or strongly confirms my opinions so far. He still seems to have Bingle as "town for now".

_____________

It's not a huge thing now, but anyone questioning the quality of Datisis play, it feels obvious in hindsight his Sircakez thing was just looking for associatives in case Iconeum/Darby flipped scum because he had a shot to take advantage vig. He thought he had a partner and he took the shot. I wouldn't have agreed but I can follow what he was doing so it's hard to be mad.

Datisi if you went back and forth on Enchant and chose sircakez and Enchant turns out to be scum I feel your pain

Oh I'd forgotten about this:

Okay, yeah A50 is lock town.

please say sike

Hmm.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ig sleepless has two people before Bingle (me/enchant) but given Bingle is widely townread I don't see them doing that unless the goal was specifically to swap deepwolf or to try to flip SA and give Bingle more towncred - but then why would bingle be alive would be too much of an issue for scum!Bingle.

I'm actually starting to think Bingle is more likely than you especially if Enchant turns out to be scum. Looking at the vote counts you just posted seems to point that way too.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I really want to Iso Almost50 too but don't know of I have time. I'm working 16 hours today just to get up on short sleep and work again tomorrow then the weekend is who the hell knows but probably even worse. Thanks COVID.

Oh speaking of that I should probably say in here

V/LA until Monday

I'll be trying to check in but I won't be myself.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I looked at Almost50. He really didn't do a ton with reads. He was dead wrong about Gamma. He was wrong about Iconeum/Darby although he did vote there for thinking Darby had a stronger role than Gamma lol. I do notice he had Enchant low on his reads list but he only mentioned that a few times. I think it's more likely Almost50 was killed for being a possible power role or being too widely town read than being a threat to find the scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Am thinking though that Enchant/F&G are most likely bus votes despite this, although idk if F&G would be paying attention to the whole third vote thing. (Would you?)

Not sure what you're asking tbh

~ skitter

Do you believe in the third vote on a wagon tell

Lol people told me the Amished tell was old and now we're talking about JEEPS tells. I don't have an opinion on this, just found it amusing.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Andante,
I summarized at the bottom. Could you at least take a look at that? Seems weird to townread me for stuff you haven't read and then have complete opposite opinions from mine. I'm towreading your slot as well so not being on the same page, we should probably figure out why. It makes me nervous that Toog is probably my strongest town read and VP not far off and you have them as possible scum but on this page have nothing to say on my potential Enchant/Bingle team.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sigh.

Ok.

I tried.

I'm out of time. Walking in to work in less than 2 minutes

[Sleepless Assassin]

I was gonna catch up before work but wow that's a lot of pages.

One thing I see just because it's on this page and has my name

the issue with the other 4... SA doesn't really interact with people

I specifically tried to interact with you after my analysis you didn't read and you seemed to have zero interest.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Just got out of work. This is a lot of pages. Can someone give me a cliff notes so I can still be active before I read?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm likely to vote Enchant unless something has changed I'm case anyone is wondering.

[Sleepless Assassin]

also, I will not be voting enchant today, After reading Darby/Icon, I think there's enough there that says Enchant isn't a partner

Interesting. What did you see differently than Toog and myself?

lol me today:
VP MAF
ehhh VP town, uhhh Dwlee Maf!
ok VP is definitely Maf!!
ehhh VP is probably town
"Don't vote Dwlee!! Dwlee town!!!"
VP maf!!
actually, no, VP is most likely town, I don't think VP can be maf.
Vote Dwlee

Um. For real? Lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

also, I will not be voting enchant today, After reading Darby/Icon, I think there's enough there that says Enchant isn't a partner

Interesting. What did you see differently than Toog and myself?

lol me today:
VP MAF
ehhh VP town, uhhh Dwlee Maf!
ok VP is definitely Maf!!
ehhh VP is probably town
"Don't vote Dwlee!! Dwlee town!!!"
VP maf!!
actually, no, VP is most likely town, I don't think VP can be maf.
Vote Dwlee

Um. For real? Lol

I quoted exactly what it was recently, it was something Darby or Icon said that I don't think would be said to a partner

and yeah, my reads all game have been wild, but today... pshhh I think Darby/Icon ISO makes VP town, but Pooky/Skitter still sr, so I'm not completely taking VP off the block, just, I'm not voting VP today

I didn't see Pooky and Skitter as a buddy to that slot. We agree on VP though so there's that at least...

[Sleepless Assassin]

That feels like an incredibly weak town case for Enchant

I'll let you know when I get to 116, sure.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bingle we were talking about stuff on Page 95. Was that anything to keep going with? I've honestly forgotten who we were talking about in some of it, you have my reads wrong in parts (I'm not scumreading Fun and Games or townreading Enchant), and obviously I'm not scum with Gamma.

[Sleepless Assassin]

If i was maf I would put Innocent Child, Jailkeeper and Tracker. More optimal i think.

lolno
Unless you have v high faith in your ability to hunt down TPR before you get whittled down to one I think IC vig cop is pretty much always optimal

Adding Vig is suicide.

but did Enchant add vig and say this? Like, that's what I genuinely don't get, why did maf give town vig? makes 0 sense to me lmao

If I was scum talking here about roles I'd be more likely to be as far off from what I actually picked as possible. I wouldn't personally want the conversation as either alignment though.

Just reading the single Dunn interaction, feels like talking to a partner/not taking it seriously/trying to go anywhere with it.

Isn't that kind of how Enchant talks to everyone? What do you think of them being counterwagons to each other Day 1?

i mean i don't know if that's a towncase so much as me disagreeign with toog's scumcase

I just meant in general nothing in that makes Enchant sound more likely to be town. The hammer thing is probably just playstyle. Some people would rather hammer than be the driving force and Enchant even made a comment very early Day 1 about preferring to strike later or something.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bingle is scum he'd see Datisi as a thorn in his side

I definitely shouldn't be townread off the back of Dats dying, but thinking this is a reason I'd kill someone is hilarious, tbh.

Hi, my name is Bingle and I actively want to be scumread as scum. And also as town. In the former case because having something to defend against means I don't have to effort about generating reads and in the latter because analyzing why I'm being scumread helps me to generate reads. I truly despise being a UTR regardless of my alignment.

Maybe its the laughing smilie but something in this makes me think you expected me to know that despite it being a very weird thing if true.

If you did hypoclaim yesterday please repeat yourself so I don't have to go searching.

Night 1 innocent result on Gamma.

Also, I just realized that SA slipped back into the not linking his posts to the context and I'm not sure how to take that given the long conversation about the scum motivation behind that.

2413
Oh shit I forgot that. 20452391

[Sleepless Assassin]

I skimmed today's stuff. I'd like to actually catch up but we have a scum claim so there's no sense waiting on me. I'm ready to vote there if everyone else is satisfied ending the day.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I can try to find some time tomorrow but it's not likely to be everything.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unless I stay up late and do it at like 3am. Which is a legitimate possibility

[Sleepless Assassin]

It's the closest thing I have to free time though lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

I skimmed today's stuff. I'd like to actually catch up but we have a scum claim so there's no sense waiting on me. I'm ready to vote there if everyone else is satisfied ending the day.

I don't like this

Sorry football was on today 3150

[Sleepless Assassin]

Vote Enchant

As fast as this is moving I'm never gonna catch up anyway.

[Sleepless Assassin]

He claimed scum

[Sleepless Assassin]

Thanks I thought so too

[Sleepless Assassin]

What's up here

VC 3.3

Dwlee99 (1)- Enchant
Fun and Games (1)- Dwlee99

Not voting (1)- Andante

An entertaining endgame situation to watch from the graveyard

[Sleepless Assassin]

He claimed scum

[Sleepless Assassin]

Scum is much more likely to claim scum than town is

[Sleepless Assassin]

Scum is much more likely to claim scum than town is

I actually disagree with this premise, and think the opposite. Why do u think this?

~ skitter

There are actual reasons for scum to give up. The only reason I can think of for town is a complete temper tantrum and ruining games because they didn't get their way. Enchant doesn't strike me as that kind of person and even if he did, one town player dying shouldn't be enough to trigger that response.

[Sleepless Assassin]

It's bad play as scum. It's just plain ruining it for others if town.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sure but I don't think I've ever seen it before from town.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I meant think it's clear frustration was the reason. But if he did that as town that means there's a spitefulness on top of that that I just don't see.

The guy said himself he's scum. Why are we even arguing over it

[Sleepless Assassin]

You've never seen a scumclaim? I'm actually shocked if that's true.

[Sleepless Assassin]

For what it's worth I can't see Enchants buddy hard defending here. Fun and Games is likely town

[Sleepless Assassin]

why even mimic gamma as scum when *gamma got voted out* for it, that seems like a playbook of things to *avoid* doing

I disagree. It's risky, but there is a non-zero chance town is gun-shy after the gamma misyeet and is reluctant to flip someone engaging in openly scummy behavior.

I get where you are coming from that people can get frustrated and make stupid plays as town. Totally true. But what concerns me here is Enchant seeing that directly and the negative effects, then doing something similar. It's a good play of reverse psychology as scum. I think you should consider that.

I don't think he was trying to gain anything. Pretty sure he just wanted to be done with the game

[Sleepless Assassin]

I mean we are but i dont think that's great reasoning for it

~ skitter

His buddy has to know he's going down and probably doesn't want to risk associatives as the lone remaining scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I mean we are but i dont think that's great reasoning for it

~ skitter

His buddy has to know he's going down and probably doesn't want to risk associatives as the lone remaining scum.

This also assumes enchant-scum whicu in my mind is relatively likely to be a faulty assumption

~ skitter

I'm not assuming. He already told us he's scum

[Sleepless Assassin]

I mean you're assuming that's a true statement

~ skitter

I still don't see why he'd lie

[Sleepless Assassin]

Anyhow, this is a pointless argument.

QFT

[Sleepless Assassin]

I should have seen that coming

[Sleepless Assassin]

I should have seen that coming

what do you mean by this?

You're opposite me on everything else so why wouldn't you vote my town read over claimed scum

[Sleepless Assassin]

So vote Enchant

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sigh

[Sleepless Assassin]

SA is literally just going "well enchant said he's scum so he we have to lim him"

And enchant has been scummy but like... that read is trash like I said earlier

Did you forget I had Enchant as scum before he told us he's scum?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'd prefer you talked about that instead of the scum claim then cause that's all I remember

No one was reading any of that. I went on and on

[Sleepless Assassin]

On enchant and bingle

I really think this is the team

[Sleepless Assassin]

If I'm wrong dwelee is my next guess but

Um

There's kind of claimed scum

So

Why not kill it?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Yeah I think dwelee is more likely to be scum than fun and Games but Dwelee kind of has a point that VP and Enchant are easier votes than I am and they can't both be his buddy so if he wanted an easy vote he'd have one without bringing up my name.

V/LA until Friday

I'm starting a 40 hour shift with an 8 hour break tomorrow morning. It's unlikely I post on that break because despite the name I'll need some sleep.

Preview edit: OK that makes more sense.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm back once I wake up. What did I miss

[Sleepless Assassin]

I wouldn't bother but I don't want Looker to think that's accurate.

There weren't bad associatives. Gamma was one of two counterwagons to Iconeum/Darby. Toog replaced the other.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Strongly disagree

[Sleepless Assassin]

What's that? This day?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Vote No Elimination

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm trying to keep an open mind but its still hard to see Toog as scum.

My old thoughts land me on Looker/Dwelee. I need to see if that makes sense. If it doesn't, VP is likely scum with one of those two.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Also I'm not here today. I'm about to head into work. I'll be out at 7am.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Curious if Looker has anything to add to the game state.

Dwlee and VPB look like they attempted to distance at the day start.

I also don't like to drag out MeLo. People spend way too much time wifoming over their decisions. You either trust yourself and others, or you don't.


VOTE: Dwlee
UNVOTE:
VOTE: VP Baltar

Wow...

[Sleepless Assassin]

Twice in this game a speed elimination happened while I was at work.

I don't know what more I could have done.

Ugh.

So annoyed.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'll own that I was wrong on Enchant but other than that I don't think I screwed up