Open 837: Cop Killer - Endgame

[Galron]

Oh dear.

VOTE: bingle

[Galron]

i guess rvs joke-voting the inno is loosely town, in that it's kinda similar to rvs self-vote gambits.

How are either of those things townie?

[Galron]

i guess rvs joke-voting the inno is loosely town, in that it's kinda similar to rvs self-vote gambits.

How are either of those things townie?

Or AI at all?

[Galron]

Hola DArby!

[Galron]

ive only ever seen the self-vote reaction test used by town. i could guess at reasons for this (mafia not wanting to draw attention to themself, mafia not wanting to do something daft that gets them policy-eliminated, the fact that moving the game out of rvs benefits town), but the theory behind it is far less relevant to me (because i think it's bad and shouldnt happen regardless) than what ive tended to observe.

If the theory is bad, why do you subscribe to it?

[Galron]

It sounds like you don't believe the thoery is bad because you have empirical evidence that only town does that.

[Galron]

Suss that A50 isn't shitposting as much as he should be.

[Galron]

Suss that A50 isn't shitposting as much as he should be.

You're approaching LAL territory with this statement. I am the top poster of this game as we speak, and I have yet to say one meaningful word.

Oh yeah? Well.. yeah I'll show you something something grumble mumble...

Spoiler:

[Galron]

No. It doesn't really clarify it, and I don't think that's what you did, but gonna let it drop for now.

[Galron]

Are you guys like... Seriously arguing about A50's alignment?

You're not, right?

No. Apparently my sarcasm didn't come across the interwebz

[Galron]

Don’t say that. I didn’t fully read the player list and thought I accidentally posted in a game I shouldn’t be in.

I demand that you sing "Wishing Well" every other post.

I laughed.

[Galron]

VOTE: Roden

Acting very sus to pressure.

Literally what does this even mean

That's for Town to know and you to find out.

Will you answer his question please? Can you?

[Galron]

This game is not fun for me right now. That argument is a fucking mess. I might be back later.

UNVOTE:

[Galron]

VOTE: Galron

Do I detect a certain stiffness and disinterest?

Disinterest sure. Dunno about stiffness. Explain that.

[Galron]

I was gonna catch up and be useful, but all of the colors are bleeding together. I promise that I'll either catch up tomorrow. Maybe.

Unlike last night, I don't have a legitimate reason to not catch up. I just don't want to. Deal with it, nerds. (Seriously though, I promise to get to this and actually provide content when I'm in a better mafia headspace.)

Dammit, Bingle. At least call someone a mothertrucker. Or is it too early for that?

[Galron]

Basically, yeah. This game I want to focus on who I town read the least {target pending}.

Will an announcement be made?

[Galron]

Why not vote me then?

VOTE: GL

Why am I voting you?

Do you also scumread my intro post for being somewhat rote?

I think we're using "stiff" this game.

Hello hello old friends and new

VOTE: Roden

Didn't like his first post, I think using a past game to justify RVS vote is inherently a lil awkward

Also I like Galron for town

Why the TR so early?

[Galron]

Why the TR so early?

Throw meta out.

[Galron]

VOTE: Galron

Do I detect a certain stiffness and disinterest?

Disinterest sure. Dunno about stiffness. Explain that.

Posts felt constrained. We played before, and I recall you were involved in (even early) gameplay to a greater degree.

Why... the disinterest?

That LQ/Roden thing sucked all the life out of the game. Did you read it and take away anything from it?

[Galron]

For T3

Spoiler:

This is A50 in his pure town form.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Salsabil Faria

was buddying in the queue

Why did you unvote Enchant here, mc?

isn't that like... rvs and all?

I wanted to hear mc explain in their own words because every other post of theirs has been really over-explainy and I'm trying to get a sense of their personality

LQ is feeling WILDLY different than I remember from town him

town lq
sorts people, actively scumhunts, makes walls
scum lq
just says his reads on people, one liners
VOTE: lq
thank you for coming to my ted talk

Don’t say that. I didn’t fully read the player list and thought I accidentally posted in a game I shouldn’t be in.

I feel like scum would be a little bit more conscious of the fact that they are playing in a game so weak townpoints for this

It doesn't read like a fake dumbtell so I'll townbin DArby for now.

VOTE: salsa
Salsa feels EXTREMELY different to how I remember town her.
There’s less emotion and content.

you randomly moved your vote to a lurker after expressing interest in a wagon that you [apparently?] dont actually feel good about.

VOTE: salsa

All of your scum reads are meta based except for your second vote on Salsa. 1) Are you sure you're not confbiasing with Salsa? 2) if you had no meta on these players, would you be scum reading them?

You did give a town read to DArby that wasn't based on meta, in fact you gave two town reads to DArby that weren't based on meta. Do you town read anyone else? I'm not counting A50 here.

[Galron]

Ah, that.

My takeaway is that LQ is very likely town, although I don't recall experiencing his scum game - so I'll have to skim through some.

Is that a meta read then?

What do you think of Roden?

[Galron]

I'm not doing that.

[Galron]

VOTE: Salsa

[Galron]

I thought that was hammer actually.

[Galron]

Hmm guess not. I can't count.

[Galron]

I don't think in this instance that it's an uncharitable reading of what Pav said. We're in multi-ball, and it seems to me to be good play to coordinate night kills if possible. If you look at 440, the second and third sentences are unnecessary to the point the Pav was making, and the more I look at them the more I think, why did he even go there?

I would also go as far as to say that if we should flip GL, and he turns town, that would be scum indicative on Bingle given the recent shade. But I also kinda don't think GL is likely to get flipped. A NK'd GL would be another story.

[Galron]

I don't think in this instance that it's an uncharitable reading of what Pav said. We're in multi-ball, and it seems to me to be good play to coordinate night kills if possible. If you look at 440, the second and third sentences are unnecessary to the point the Pav was making, and the more I look at them the more I think, why did he even go there?

I would also go as far as to say that if we should flip GL, and he turns town, that would be scum indicative on Bingle given the recent shade. But I also kinda don't think GL is likely to get flipped. A NK'd GL would be another story.

it's probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it seems pretty easy to me to understand why he went there?

1. "If I knew GL was town, I'd think this Bingle suspicion of him looks bad"
2. "The only way we can know GL is town is if we lim him or if he's NK'd"
3. "I don't want to lim GL"
4. "Oh, but if GL is NK'd, that probably wouldn't be additional evidence for scum!Bingle"

Like, that flow of reasoning just feels extremely straightforward to me. I agree that it's not like, the deepest or most insightful or most important train of thought, but it's a train with a well illuminated and clear railroad.

When I ask myself how that post amounts to signaling, why scum!Pav would signal at all to begin with, and then why scum!Pav would signal about killing GL, for me it's a lot less clear.

thinking that it's signaling feels to me like assuming Pav's alignment/motivations first and analyzing his post second. Like if I start from Pav being scum, could that be a signal? Maybe. Do I look at his post and think it's such clear signaling that it makes Pav more likely to be scum? No.

I think I disagree with the second post, or maybe it's a playstyle difference. But many times looking at a post, I look at the town and the scum motivations behind it along with the post as a whole. It's difficult for me to dissect it like you're talking about. And with the first post, that jump from 3 to 4 does not necessarily look like a natural thought process, but i think it's borderline and just lightly +scum for Pav at this point.

[Galron]

I thought that the single kill was slightly clearing for Pav due to the signalling discussion.

[Galron]

Was going to ask how he knew that Team Fire killed A50 but I figured it out.

[Galron]

Seems entirely reasonable, actually.

I just realized this probably looks like it means exactly the opposite of my intention.

LQ's play seems entirely reasonable to me, not your reasoning to vote him.

Not that your reasoning is necessarily unreasonable, but rather that I don't think LQ having weird takes is particularly scummy.

I read it as you intended. I don't think LQ is a good lim today. I don't know who is, but not LQ.

[Galron]

I'll join in here.

VOTE: T3

[Galron]

But does scum!T3 forget he voted for Salsa an hour earlier?

[Galron]

Wait. You are Conf Town? How so?

635

[Galron]

Galron - I guess I have to have a Scum Lean somewhere. And I didn't really like that the were stiff at the SoD 1. Someone else made that comment and I went back to look and I can definitely see it. Their reaction to it was bad too.

Can you point me to what you're talking about?

[Galron]

Also that you started off serious then went to joking. That felt unnatural to me.

Fair enough I guess. I'm not sure why addressing something that felt off out of the gate and then engaging in friendly banter is scummy, but you and Auro saw something apparently.

[Galron]

Town:
Roden
mc esther - Townie sounding points.
Guilty Lion - Not seeing GL as Scum here. Their push on Roden looks bad in retrospect, but I'm guilty of the same thing.

Town Lean:
Bingle - Good thoughts, feel like he's actually trying to sort me.
DArby - Probably Town, but there was something that was bugging me about them near EoD. Would have to look and try and figure it out. Town Lean.

Null:
Enchant - IDK, higher activity? That's probably NAI
Pavowski - Null. Why are People TRing Pav? Is it based on pre-flip or what?
Auro - Having doubts here since I'm probably TRing Bingle and GL more at this point.
T3 - Don't really feel anything here.

Scum Lean:
Galron - I guess I have to have a Scum Lean somewhere. And I didn't really like that the were stiff at the SoD 1. Someone else made that comment and I went back to look and I can definitely see it. Their reaction to it was bad too.

VOTE: Galron

Did you figure out what the deal was with DArby? You went back and looked at my stuff (or remembered it?) and forced a scum lean out of it?

I'm townreading Pav based on the signalling discussion yesterday and the early discussion about one kill today. What do you think of that stuff from Pav?

With Enchant you have higher activity and then say that may be NAI. If it is AI, where does that place Enchant?

What do you think of all of T3's reads being meta reads?

[Galron]

For pav tho right

[Galron]

Looked back, and apparently the VC was wrong. You should have been on Gal instead of T3. But still, that wagon popping up that fast with that little resistance over what I admitted to be no reason at all at the time is weird, so I'm pressing another button.

Forgive me if I don't sheep you on this one.

[Galron]

Actually, there's no harm in outing how I'm going to get it, so I can do that.

There is no kill flavor in the Role PMs provided on page 1. (I know, I checked a while back.) I just asked NM if he put kill flavor in the maf pts (open, so general formatting of PTs should be public information). If yes, then I think that's scum indicative for GL. If no, I think that's fairly clearing for GL.

For pav tho right

[Galron]

This is bizarre behavior

Someone did say LQ can have some crazy takes even as town. That being said, my earlier inclination that he's not a good lim today has eroded significantly due to his play so far today. And this is not OMGUS-driven. I did't really care that he voted me, but his reasons for voting me and his reads list, along with follow-up explanations, are really bad.

[Galron]

I saw that but didn't connect the two. Re-reading 744 I guess I see what you're getting at, but now I'm not sure why Pav is null.

[Galron]

@gal nope check 749

It a big ol null sandwich for pav.

I saw that but didn't connect the two. Re-reading 744 I guess I see what you're getting at, but now I'm not sure why Pav is null.

[Galron]

This is bizarre behavior

Someone did say LQ can have some crazy takes even as town. That being said, my earlier inclination that he's not a good lim today has eroded significantly due to his play so far today. And this is not OMGUS-driven. I did't really care that he voted me, but his reasons for voting me and his reads list, along with follow-up explanations, are really bad.

Why are they "really bad"? Because they are not complex reads? Reads don't have to be complex to be right.

I'm not going to go point-by-point, but they're completely generic. While reads don't need to be complex the type of list you were trying to make should contain at least some level of at least low-level thought.

[Galron]

You're leaning that way, although I'm not giving up on my prior thought that you and Roden were TvT. And I'm not going to be baited into your JAQing off here.

[Galron]

Gotcha. Fair enough then.

[Galron]

a bit more detached with it

I perceive this game very differently to the rest due to multi-ball and high killing power, so while I'm following the game I'm not too bothered with

immediately nailing scum

.

Are you talking about to the rest of the plist or games or what? I get the high-powered killing thing but not sure how that fits with what you're saying.

[Galron]

I think Guilty Lion redeemed himself a bit with the wall reads list in my eyes. I'm now more town leaning than scum leaning him unless he's the type to tryhard as scum.

[Galron]

Would be interested in the rest though

[Galron]

i dont think even galron even agrees with that interpretation tbh (seeing as he never voted over it or even commented on it), im pretty sure im the only person who considers it a significant part of "the case"

If you're talking about Lick JAQing off or sea lioning, I generally don't think that that's damning, but that's only if the protagonist is doing it as an effort to sort people. I'm kind of on the fence on whether Lick is/was doing this in bad faith. That and I had thought earlier this phase that he wouldn't be who I'd want to lim today, were why I didn't vote him. I wanted to go back and see why I had thought he wouldn't be a good lim primarily and just hadn't/haven't done that yet.

[Galron]

UNVOTE:

We've got lots of time and I'm not sure I think T3 is scum any longer.

[Galron]

i dont think even galron even agrees with that interpretation tbh (seeing as he never voted over it or even commented on it), im pretty sure im the only person who considers it a significant part of "the case"

If you're talking about Lick JAQing off or sea lioning, I generally don't think that that's damning, but that's only if the protagonist is doing it as an effort to sort people. I'm kind of on the fence on whether Lick is/was doing this in bad faith. That and I had thought earlier this phase that he wouldn't be who I'd want to lim today, were why I didn't vote him. I wanted to go back and see why I had thought he wouldn't be a good lim primarily and just hadn't/haven't done that yet.

But I would lim him over T3 at this point if it came down to it. He's interacted with enough players that I think his flip would be useful. Problem is, as someone said (auro?), this is such a high powered game that a miz could be close to being fatal.

[Galron]

I have my eye on Guilty Lion. While that reads list was pretty comprehensive and good, I was getting odd vibes from him earlier, and I don't know that that's been redeemed by what should be an obvtown post.

[Galron]

Galron, what do you think of my points on Lickety? It's more than just the JAQing

LicketyQuickety - I think my biggest issue with Lickety is that at times it feels like he's going through the effort of telling the thread how he is thinking, instead of just actually thinking. 210 ("I feel you are being manipulative, but if you explain I will move on"), 252 (the unprompted addition of "I'm not scumreading Auro because I expect him to do this as scum"), 402 (why is he saying both that T3's read is weird but also that he agrees with it??), 404 I hadn't noticed this previously but using "until" in that post when presumably he meant "unless" is an odd mistake, 415 feels super stiff and 416 as Pav called out is really dubious because he's basically inviting Roden to be townread if Roden backs off his LQ push. That mindset feels a lot more likely to come from someone who wants to defuse the fight rather than someone who actually thinks Roden might be scum.

I don't know that telling everyone what he's thinking rather than explaining why he's thinking that isn't inherently scummy. I think that could be done as a method of gaining reactions in a genuine manner. It's not uncommon, and I do it myself sometimes. As that relates to his reads list, I would agree that it is more likely to come from scum than from town. If you're going to do a reads list where you put your thoughts on the slot down, it should be more developed than a bunch of vagaries. Otherwise it comes across as forced, and it's not all that useful. I don't find 415 stiff per se but maybe a bit labored if that makes any sense, but it does show a thought process of some sort, which is something I look for in that type of post. 416, on the other hand, is a silly post and looks like it's there to trap Roden in a Catch-22. If Roden moves his vote it's "Roden moved his vote due to pressure, and that's scummy," and if Roden doesn't move his vote it's, "Roden didn't reevaluate like I asked, and that's scummy." In 804 he actually makes a good point that just because Roden is conftown that doesn't mean Roden's scum hunting is any better than anyone else's, but he does neglect to state that maybe it should carry more weight because we all know it's not coming from a biased perspective, or at least a scum-biased perspective.

So in all that, and I think I missed a couple of things, you did a good job of pointing some things out, but it doesn't move the needle a whole lot for me wrt Lick.

As for my read on you, even moderately skilled players can pull out facts with a little analysis, so same thing, it doesn't lead me to anything more than give you a few townie points. And I should add that if we weren't in multi-ball I'd probably give it more credence than I am right now. (Please don't think I'm calling you a moderately skilled player because from what I've seen from you I think you're one of the top players on the site -- I would put you in the highly skilled category.) I'm thinking now it may just me being a bit paranoid because early on I was picking up pocketing vibes from you.

[Galron]

Galron, what do you think of my points on Lickety? It's more than just the JAQing

LicketyQuickety - I think my biggest issue with Lickety is that at times it feels like he's going through the effort of telling the thread how he is thinking, instead of just actually thinking. 210 ("I feel you are being manipulative, but if you explain I will move on"), 252 (the unprompted addition of "I'm not scumreading Auro because I expect him to do this as scum"), 402 (why is he saying both that T3's read is weird but also that he agrees with it??), 404 I hadn't noticed this previously but using "until" in that post when presumably he meant "unless" is an odd mistake, 415 feels super stiff and 416 as Pav called out is really dubious because he's basically inviting Roden to be townread if Roden backs off his LQ push. That mindset feels a lot more likely to come from someone who wants to defuse the fight rather than someone who actually thinks Roden might be scum.

I don't know that telling everyone what he's thinking rather than explaining why he's thinking that isn't inherently scummy. I think that could be done as a method of gaining reactions in a genuine manner. It's not uncommon, and I do it myself sometimes. As that relates to his reads list, I would agree that it is more likely to come from scum than from town. If you're going to do a reads list where you put your thoughts on the slot down, it should be more developed than a bunch of vagaries. Otherwise it comes across as forced, and it's not all that useful. I don't find 415 stiff per se but maybe a bit labored if that makes any sense, but it does show a thought process of some sort, which is something I look for in that type of post. 416, on the other hand, is a silly post and looks like it's there to trap Roden in a Catch-22. If Roden moves his vote it's "Roden moved his vote due to pressure, and that's scummy," and if Roden doesn't move his vote it's, "Roden didn't reevaluate like I asked, and that's scummy." In 804 he actually makes a good point that just because Roden is conftown that doesn't mean Roden's scum hunting is any better than anyone else's, but he does neglect to state that maybe it should carry more weight because we all know it's not coming from a biased perspective, or at least a scum-biased perspective.

So in all that, and I think I missed a couple of things, you did a good job of pointing some things out, but it doesn't move the needle a whole lot for me wrt Lick.

As for my read on you, even moderately skilled players can pull out facts with a little analysis, so same thing, it doesn't lead me to anything more than give you a few townie points. And I should add that if we weren't in multi-ball I'd probably give it more credence than I am right now. (Please don't think I'm calling you a moderately skilled player because from what I've seen from you I think you're one of the top players on the site -- I would put you in the highly skilled category.) I'm thinking now it may just me being a bit paranoid because early on I was picking up pocketing vibes from you.

ebwop: that first sentence should say that I don't know that it is inherently scummy, not isn't.

[Galron]

Overall, the string of arguments that he's gotten into do come across as him trying to score points in bad faith rather than to genuinely sort people, so maybe I scum read him more than I was thinking 10 minutes ago.

[Galron]

I hate having to rely on meta. It's one of the reasons that color/shape theme game was fun, but if Enchant is disliking T3 bc of all of the meta reads T3 has, I have to jump in a bit to defend T3 because I've seen that a lot from him, and I don't think he's to the point where he's able to replicate that as scum.

[Galron]

@GL: Not sure why stirring the pot is a bad thing; often, provocation can result in more interesting, readable states.

it's not always a bad thing! That's why I said I had to put my tinfoil hat on to make that take

can I get from you 4 or 5 scumreads? I get that you said you're not too pressed about nailing scum here, but I don't feel I have a great understanding of who your suspects are

@Auro can you respond to this

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

I think this is putting him at L-1 again? I'm fairly confident here at this point, especially if Enchant's doc claim is legit, I don't see myself being talked into another lim today

Is it appropriate to ask someone to respond to a question and then put someone else in quickhammer territory?

[Galron]

i never townread him
i just didn't want to vote him

So.... you killed him instead?

[Galron]

I wanted to play with Looker again. It's been awhile.

[Galron]

I dunno, town shoulda got rolled in this one despite hitting scum d1

[Galron]

Anyway this’ll be my last game for a bit in my short time of the site. I’ve been having serious trouble focusing on anything in general never mind something of this caliber. I really enjoy these games so I hope to see all of you at some point in the future when brain machine isn’t broke lol.

When you start dreaming about games, you'll be back.

[Galron]

gg

Thanks for the game, N_M!

[Galron]

Thanks for the game NM. That was fun. gga