Open 839: White flag Holder [Game Over]

[mc esther]

im probably not gonna read this thread unless someone really bullies me into it, but does anyone have any advice on avoiding the jester (or, is there a general consensus on who the jester is)? i dont really wanna get caught playing 3:9 mountainous lol.

VOTE: rh9

oh nvm i just scrolled up the page enchant is 100% jester

[mc esther]

i think rh9 isnt online rn, which sucks because i wanted to see his reaction before saying anything, but also dont wanna delay too much

at the risk of stating the obvious, we're two days until deadline, we're probably eliminating rh9 or alyssa. there's some argument for eliminating alyssa as a way of preventing the game from stagnating as the mod looks for further replacements, but i mean idk lol theyre both pretty interchangeable fmpov.

megzum, what does "still support the rh9 wagon" mean? like, youre not voting rh9, youre voting enchant

p-edit: okay but you just burned your one iso read from me

[mc esther]

oh there's an ic in the game, eliminating absent players is a garbage idea nvm lol

[mc esther]

yeah okay frozen deadline makes this easier (but also harder in that now there's a greater expectation i put some effort in)

[mc esther]

okay so ahhlo is enchant's predecessor. yeah, idk, i probably wouldntve called ahhlo jester, but i wouldve struggled to call him anything, just a very odd posting style in general.

i think im sticking pretty comfortably with the enchant jester read (ended up reading enchant's iso too). i dont really buy it as a scum strategy (idk, i know enchant can be pretty ballsy as scum, but it doesnt even seem a particularly good scum strategy because town may well still hunt down your buddies), nor do i buy their claim that everyone should act jestery as a sincerely held town belief. difficult to make that last comment with certainty, because on some level it's "just" theory disagreement. but idk lol, i think the disruption that "everyone act like a jester" would inflict on scumhunting is pretty obvious.

[mc esther]

why do people think rh9 is scum? i personally like wagons with big numbers next to them, but im guessing someone's got a slightly more thread-related reason to vote him than that.

[mc esther]

i believe m&m's later statement that the ic claim was meant to be a joke, but im not sure that's alignment indicative

[mc esther]

hello rh9! im voting you! tell me who you think i should vote instead!

[mc esther]

As in Three's treating the game, the most seriously, as opposed to a lot of the others.

thanks for the advice, i'll sheep them for now then

[mc esther]

i think harley quinn is town, the advice to read the ahhlo iso was imo nonobvious

[mc esther]

Also Deadline is still frozen

nope, the deadline in count 2.08 is definitely counting down

strongly believe we should just pile on rh9 (sorry rh9, you know what deadlines are like)

[mc esther]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: milk and mocha

idk just seems the most likely player to shoot blood puppets

im gonna try to be here throughout as much of the deadline period as possible, i'll get back on rh9 if m&m just doesnt have support, but i think m&m's a much better elim. i also agree with blood puppets' observation that mocha couldve been trying to bait an ic counterclaim.

[mc esther]

it's not like anyone (as far as i can tell from the votecount) has really tried to push mocha on these grounds, either -- like, if scum took the shot to incriminate them, theyve done a really bad job of it

[mc esther]

oh my bad there are actually two votes on mocha already. oh well.

[mc esther]

to be clear: i dont think rh9 voicing a willingness to die at deadline doesnt make him town to me, ofc both alignments do that (even jester does that!). he's null to me.

[mc esther]

"i dont think it doesnt" fuck okay you know what i meant just remove whichever negative you want

[mc esther]

"i dont think... makes him town to me" that's such an embarrassing post on multiple levels, holy shit ik im not exactly good with words but damn

[mc esther]

our best-case scenario is scum shooting jester, but i dont really believe that that will actually happen lol. like, is the jester gonna be looking exceptionally townie or making convincing and cogent cases? and the alternative that enchant proposes, where we all jester-tell so scum's shooting a little blind -- we're flatly not going to catch scum if we adopt this strategy (idk, maybe this is a more controversial opinion than i think? i almost never play jester games). i think we're much better off being open in jester reads to avoid mountainous, than we are praying that scum shoot jester.

i dont get why rh9 isnt voting. very strange to recognize deadline urgency to the point where you say youre fine with being eliminated as town, but not cast at least a semi-arbitrary vote for that same reason.

UNVOTE: mocha
VOTE: rh9

i consider these two pretty interchangeable. ive covered why im not interested in eliminating alyssa right this moment.

[mc esther]

Any ideas for who I should be voting?

unless you believe mocha's jester, probably mocha? like, idk lol, i get that you dont have any scumreads, but unless someone suddenly comes in with a clearly out-of-this-world case that can within ~40 hours convince a majority of the town, this is just a numbers' game, right? there are two wagons with demonstrable support on active players, and you probably dont want to self-vote.

this is perhaps a hypocritical question, but, why are you asking me?

[mc esther]

okay, so, do you believe mocha is likely jester or not?

[mc esther]

idk if numberq and three are town, but i kinda wanna townbloc with them regardless

[mc esther]

i cant put into words why i disbelieve that mocha is jester, but it's just a little off for me. just seems very sincere in the moments where they come close to saying "yeah we're just jestering for the fun of it" -- and eh, ofc jester wants me to believe that those moments are sincere, okay cool i got outplayed if that's what's up, gg.

it's possible that it's both -- that they were always going to jester regardless of alignment (im almost certain that this part is correct), and happened to actually roll jester -- but whatever, i can take those odds.

[mc esther]

it's possible that it's both -- that they were always going to jester regardless of alignment (im almost certain that this part is correct), and happened to actually roll jester -- but whatever, i can take those odds.

we've jestered in games without jesters.

perhaps i should be concerned that they confirmed my take-away, but yeah, assuming this is true then the jester-like behaviour is just not alignment indicative and perhaps not even worth trying to extract meaning from

[mc esther]

so yeah, to re-iterate to anyone who comes into the thread next: either assemble the hardest case youve ever made in your life, or get on rh9/mocha.

[mc esther]

okay get on rh9 unless you want to elect me thread leader, in which case vote mocha.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mocha

[mc esther]

um i definitely care and im like 99% sure that youre not including me in your "less than three players"

firebringer is town, i think. kinda weird to complain about a lack of effort while keeping a vote on an absent player, but defeatism does that sometimes.

[mc esther]

the nominal push against dwlee is some sort of joke im not getting, right? just assuming, based on the lack of vote.

[mc esther]

as pointed out, town's goal right this moment almost literally isnt to solve. the deadline is (unless the mod made a mistake) moving again, we're trying to hit a consensus/compromise elimination on a non-jester. this isnt a useless rabbithole, it's also worth making scumreads while we do this and it's also worth looking out for the players who seem to be coasting -- but actually acting on most of that stuff probably has to wait until tomorrow.

[mc esther]

like, i dont want to be shutting down discussion or anything, please tell me all about who's coasting and who isnt even attempting to make a worthwhile contribution. but "idk i cant solve when everyone's troll-jestering" just, isnt really a meaningful comment on how this particular gamestate be played out imo. you can be literally totally lacking in reads and still cast pro-town votes right now.

[mc esther]

actually, we're at even numbers, maybe we do just no-elim

[mc esther]

is there anyone here who's just, obviously going to get shot tonight? like, is there a real risk that the nightkill doesnt give us any information?

[mc esther]

lmaooo fuck (and okay plz nobody answer the nk question seeing as it's not relevant)

yeah okay, im back where i was before then, why is just casting a deadline vote so hard for people? rh9 is kinda in a uniquely difficult position, i dont think anyone else is -- like, i dont think ive seen anyone suggest that rh9 is a likely jester, even if they are scared of mocha.

[mc esther]

was blood puppets widely regarded as obvtown? while my first thought was very much "mocha would shoot them, right?", it's also possibly just best explained as "great way to avoid hitting a jester".

[mc esther]

i probably wont be doing the endless multiposting tomorrow, i just wanna blurt everything out rn

[mc esther]

gut town on rh9, mocha very much my preferred elimination

[mc esther]

replacing in is so cool lmao you can just be like "firebreather's town because he's mad, rh9 is town because idk lol vibes" and everyone just has to be like "well she's trying, we cant expect any better from her, she hasnt read the thread"

[mc esther]

rh9, is there any point in me asking, "would you please vote mocha?"?

[mc esther]

are you referring to when they asked if mocha's trying to bait cc?

[mc esther]

yeah okay i think dwlee99's town, and i agree that mocha's death might not really incriminate anyone. i still have rh9 townvibes and want mocha eliminated over him.

[mc esther]

*blood puppets' death might not

[mc esther]

also i just think that the conftown hydra read is probably worth sheeping, even if that read wasnt the main reason for which they were killed

[mc esther]

oh wait he literally said the opposite of that, that theyre not scumreads

[mc esther]

UNVOTE:

give me a sec let me figure this out

[mc esther]

lmao i cant actually find any clear and obviously-current reads on any living players

whatever, back to mocha

VOTE: mocha

[mc esther]

i probably wontve read the thread by tomorrow, but i do plan on reading some of it. any recommendations for pages or whatever?

[mc esther]

nah i want pages

[mc esther]

like, ive skimmed some iso's, it's not been an awful way to grab a handful of points and bullshit my way through the 48 hour timer; but it's very much not the same thing as seeing a conversation develop

[mc esther]

okay i went from where not_mafia replaced out, i think ive read 20 pages to 80, i havent retained much of it, but

i totally get why people were wagoning rh9 now lmao and im much less sure in my townread on him
i like dwlee99's consistency in pushing mocha
someone suggested we hit an inactive player, i guess that would be voyc (i dont want to eliminate numberq or enchant). i dont think there's likely to be deadline support for voyc, we probably needed to get on this earlier if we wanted it to happen. idk if the fact that this didnt happen might point us towards scum, i might try to find and reread those pages more closely.

[mc esther]

pages 68 to 84 if anyone's curious

[mc esther]

also it would be very rude to say we should eliminate someone who said hi to me when i replaced in

(sorry, hello voyc, i didnt really interact with you at all when i started posting)

[mc esther]

sorry voyc

UNVOTE:
VOTE: voyc

[mc esther]

so three, youre not willing to do mocha?

[mc esther]

i might be heading to bed [relatively] soon. i'll be back in ~12 hours (give or take), i cant be so active all-[irl]-day tomorrow but i'll be able to respond to major developments and keep my vote useful. hoping people manage to sift out the "definitely not happening" wagons and start to converge on something decent while i'm asleep.

assuming it's between voyc/mocha/rh9, rh9 is my least favourite. voyc is probably my slightly preferred wagon over mocha, but it's hard to say.

i would literally rather force a no-elim than vote enchant (jester) or alyssa (absent players simply shouldnt be eliminated in a game with ics), anyone else is fair game as far as im concerned.

[mc esther]

numberq, three, and dwlee99 would be really disappointing eliminations that i'd be pretty mad about, but theyre not in the same "literally would never vote for" basket as enchant/alyssa

[mc esther]

M&M gets flash yeeted at 4 town if they don't get stumped though.

i disagree with you on a lot, but im totally on board with "sort out jester shit at 4 town"

[mc esther]

i should be more explicit: yeah, i see the argument that mocha's jester, i dont really believe that, but it definitely makes sense to defer making a uh mechanical call on it

[mc esther]

oooh i like this i might stay up if people are on

[mc esther]

enchant, assuming for a moment that youre not jester: im pretty sure mocha's not getting eliminated since three's posts. are there any other eliminations youre okay with?

[mc esther]

just that this thread already tends to stall out and it would be a shame to eliminate an active player right now, i think

[mc esther]

yeah idk i havent really read enough of the thread to make that call yet but sure that sounds vaguely plausible

[mc esther]

ahkay

the lack of urgency on their part makes me think they've simply been coasting this entire time

i know that enchant, but how are we going to sort tomorrow with a dead thread? and, today, do you think we can come go an actual consensus read before deadline?

[mc esther]

okay i do actually believe youre town now, so that's something

[mc esther]

how do you feel about rh9?

[mc esther]

wh, what?

[mc esther]

curious as to whether you've read my iso, mc esther?

no but that's a fair request i'll read it now

[mc esther]

voyc, do you still think firebringer's scum?

[mc esther]

you scumread toogeloo is why i asked

i cant stop thinking about how embarrassing this will be if voyc flips town and rh9 is scum...

[mc esther]

keeping track of replacements is impossible lmao i keep needing to check the playerlist

i really do need to go to bed now, i'll reconsider my vote in the morning

[mc esther]

dwlee99, why not rh9?

[mc esther]

regardless, i think every other non-rh9 player who's posted so far has given explicit support for the rh9 wagon, perhaps consensus is not so hard lmao

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rh9

if three decides mocha isnt jester, very happy to wagon there too, but for now i strongly agree that we should just stump the jester.

[mc esther]

voyc feels unlikely to me, it's possible that enchant and numberq are the only objections and everyone else would be on-board, but i dont think so?

[mc esther]

i cant read rh9 at all. im sure i'd get the hang of it after a few games.

[mc esther]

to clarify: youre also a hard no on voyc?

[mc esther]

ik i said mocha's not jester earlier, but that was when i was on "enchant's definitely jester", which i straight-up do not believe any more.

i get the subjective appeal of "nah just dont let the presence of jester factor into eliminations", but lmao i think people who say that are dramatically underestimating the difference between white flag and mountainous.

so: if mocha's not jester, and enchant's not jester, who are the other candidates?

[mc esther]

im probably not gonna be online for the next ~7 hours, i might be able to move votes but that'll be it. after that, i can be online as long as necessary but if that involves being around for the full 23 hours im gonna bitch about it and demand people townread me.

[mc esther]

i get the subjective appeal of "nah just dont let the presence of jester factor into eliminations", but lmao i think people who say that are dramatically underestimating the difference between white flag and mountainous.

i'll say it more plainly, actually -- this current town is not capable of winning mountainous

[mc esther]

Q was already voting M&M.

Both wagons are at E-3. Vanity voters need to pick something actually feasible.

i think some of them are scum and "wont be online"

[mc esther]

i probably shouldnt say that without checking the vote count to ensure there are names i think that makes sense for. just a hunch, not a concrete suspicion on anyone.

[mc esther]

do the people on mocha strongly disbelieve he's jester, or do they view mountainous as a worthwhile gamble?

[mc esther]

okay im here to harass anyone who enters the thread until we get an elimination and you bet im mad about it

[mc esther]

do the people on mocha strongly disbelieve he's jester, or do they view mountainous as a worthwhile gamble?

hi dwlee!

[mc esther]

enchant, who's town? so far i only really have you and dwlee down. kind of a town on voyc too, i think #2554 is town survivalism.

[mc esther]

okay. obviously i cant make anyone go along with this, but my plan for tomorrow is to treat enchant/dwlee/three/voyc/quinn(!) as town and look for scum outside of that group.

[mc esther]

yay, votecount's done!

unless quinn or firebreather gets on very soon with an rh9 vote, im not sure rh9 can happen. he obviously wont self-vote (he might self-hammer, but only if he's not scum) and there's no guarantee that enchant (who seems, really invested in the mocha wagon) will be around to change their vote in time for deadline rh9. i.e., the only reliable switches to rh9 we have are dwlee and numberq, which only brings us to six.

[mc esther]

i think some of them are scum and "wont be online"

if this suspicion is correct, it's firebringer. idk if scum actually "do" this though, like, it's probably optimal but i think a lot of people have an aversion to strategic lurking.

[mc esther]

annoying, but also pretty fair. im grumpy for the same reasons <3

[mc esther]

okay, -dwlee +enchant still isnt enough, but it might be a start

[mc esther]

if enough people tell me "nah lol mocha's not jester" i'll sheep that; mocha wagon has the major advantage of being definitely viable, where rh9 is probably viable but uncertain. im just very anxious about mocha (like, the "deadline elim vt d1, into deadline elim d2" town just doesnt collectively -- i do mean, collectively, im not hating on any players here -- have its shit together enough for mountainous)

[mc esther]

is there a scumread on quinn or she just null (i guess both, to you and in general)?

[mc esther]

ayyyyyyyy firebringer okay now im feeling somewhat positive about this game

[mc esther]

What do we gain from a potential town or jester M + M lim here?

obviously i dont believe we get anything out of eliminating jester!mocha. town!mocha, eh, it's a deadline elimination, it's not ideal but frankly i dont even think rh9 is ideal.

[mc esther]

What do we gain from a potential town or jester M + M lim here?

obviously i dont believe we get anything out of eliminating jester!mocha. town!mocha, eh, it's a deadline elimination, it's not ideal but frankly i dont even think rh9 is ideal.

okay, i'll admit, i dont really have know what would be "ideal", i'll try to fix that heading into d3

who r u an alt of mc is that public knowledge or not

im not really an alt, i had an account several years ago, i havent played in over five years, this is very much my main now. i just meant, im glad that rh9 is now concretely viable over mocha.

[mc esther]

im okay with this but lmaoooooooo

[mc esther]

lmao that um definitely was a game. gg all. pooky and noraa did very well.

[mc esther]

im pretty sure the rule against fake revealing is so that if someone reveals while being deadline wagonned, the players dont have to gamble on "is this legit or not?", they can just trust the reveal. seems pretty necessary to me.