open 841: concgratulations to the winners and losers

[Sleepless Assassin]

Vote Innocentvillager

[Sleepless Assassin]

Yeah there's no way I can read all this any time soon.

V/LA until Thursday

[Sleepless Assassin]

SLEEPLESS!!! SLEEPLESS SCUM? 8 feels pretty safe to pick... I'm still not a fan of the "this is too much to read. see yall thursday"

My work schedule doesn't change based on alignment in mafia games. 8 hours between shifts is barely enough to sleep let alone read that many pages.

[Sleepless Assassin]

SLEEPLESS!!! SLEEPLESS SCUM? 8 feels pretty safe to pick... I'm still not a fan of the "this is too much to read. see yall thursday"

My work schedule doesn't change based on alignment in mafia games. 8 hours between shifts is barely enough to sleep let alone read that many pages.

ooh hi! welcome back!

I'll be back Thursday. I'm heading in to work.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Hey all. I have the day off today so I'll be doing some reading a little bit at a time. I probably won't get through 57 pages but I'll do my best between today and tomorrow.

If anyone needs anything I'm here checking in every once in a while

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'll have a big post to dump tomorrow. If anyone is curious about my reads I'm pretty confident in Innocentvillager and Flow Trap being scum. I have Mare as townier than I'm sure most of you do. Faker/catboi/Midway might contain a scum. Andante probably town. I don't have Datisi as a strong scum read but I am surprised to see him getting votes. Skitter kind of townish. Anyone else is a weaker read than those.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm pretty confident in Innocentvillager and Flow Trap being scum

incorrect

Crap. I tried. Who are you scum with then

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'll have a big post to dump tomorrow. If anyone is curious about my reads I'm pretty confident in Innocentvillager and Flow Trap being scum.

I feel like the 2 you listed are the easiest to push, so you better have some good reasons tomorrow

Interesting. I'm sure I'll see that when I'm caught up but if that's true I think we're in good shape.

[Sleepless Assassin]

i predict that i will probably scumread sleepless assassin after he makes his big post

This feels like a weird thing to say. It's like you're gonna go into reading my post trying to find things wrong with it and the post hasn't even been made yet.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Spicy

[Sleepless Assassin]

That's all?

[Sleepless Assassin]

You laid I vote. I figured you'd say why.

[Sleepless Assassin]

- you're beetlejuicing, at least twice now, which indicates that you're at least following along
- despite that, it's been like a week and you've got very little content (i do undertand that you've had a busy work schedule this week)
- this game feels like there's scum in the people who aren't super active
- i'm getting bored of my dats vote

The Beetlejuice is somewhat intentional. I'm here and checking in while I read. I even said yesterday I'm here if needed. But I haven't finished reading yet. So the things people are talking about I don't have context on. So I'm kind of refreshing and looking for my name.

The activity thing there isn't really any more to say on and you seem to understand anyway.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I was gonna post it right before I go to bed. I have aspirations of finishing reading the thread first but realistically I just want to get as far as I can.

[Sleepless Assassin]

North what did you mean then if I'm just reading it wrong

[Sleepless Assassin]

can you just drop your big post already

you can always add more shit to it later

I guess.

1 sec

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok doing some reading up and will try to organize this the best I can.

Some initial thoughts

-If scum coordinated their numbers I'm sure they're pretty spread out. That doesn't give us a ton of info until someone flips. It might implicate one of the double digit numbers (catboi, faker, sircakez, innocentvillager) or the 1s (Pooky, Datisi) because I could see them having someone go for it all and someone be sure not to double up. However, the third would be somewhere in the middle (skitter, midwaybear, mare) so it's hard to really say anyone is implicates. It's more that anyone inside of parenthesis is unlikely to be grouped as multiple scum if they coordinated.

-I voted Innocentvillager because he comes off nervous. Your entrance is where your Role PM is most fresh in your mind. Starting with a VT claim, then being sure to tell us it's a "serious claim haha", then showing regret at opening the thread while tired all reads like someone who is feeling way too awkward right at the start of a game.

-Datisi townreading pooky and flow for doubling numbers with a number picking meta makes sense, but only if there is scum who is aware of that meta. Something to go back to later on.

I'm slightly surprised not to see Datisi have any issue with Innocentvillager. We kind of mind melded on Iconeum after a bad entrance last game even though it took him a little bit to be sure on what he was seeing.

<- Scratch that. I see a vote now lol

You could probably lim the first three names and hit scum so remember this advanced strategy if we’re flailing EOD.

This probably hits a town power role more often than not.

- I get a similar impression to Amdante as last game. We might not end up agreeing on things but I think she's town. The fact that she gave Faker a hard time for not pressuring her despite not liking pressure reads as genuine. I think she put herself in Fakers shoes and wanted to point out the difference in thought process..

Replies

I'm on page 2 and saw he made a naked vote and dipped

I made the vote as I was going to bed then woke up to 16 pages.

also uhhh the sleepless thing "this is too much to read. see yall thursday" uhhh what?? there's like no content in that... it's not hard to skim..

It kind of is. I posted that when I woke up. Immediately jumped in the shower, shaved, got dressed, and drove to work. At that point I had about 30 minutes to do everything for an entire day that needs to be done on my phone. That includes this game, four fantasy football leagues, replying to texts, figuring out schedule things. I see 17 pages and I'm not dedicating that time here just to do a half assed skim.

Why I scum read Innocentvillager

- See above for why I placed my vote.

-His early talk is about himself. Why he picked his number and not what anyone else might have been thinking. The focus is just explaining himself where the natural town thought is "I wonder what scum did". There's a little bit of asking about people's meta picks but nothing to suggest he's attempting to read people's alignment based on it.

He seems reactionary OMGUSy. Datisi voted Innocentvillager and Innocentvillager wanted a fight but the second Datisi backs off its "maybe you're town". Then midway makes a decent point about that interaction coming off weird and Innocentvillager responds by calling midway "scumbear".

The timing of the Midway vote on page 30 felt weird. He mentions being the largest wagon and then switches from a vanity vote to a mini wagon. I know he already expressed a scum read on midway but it still seemed like weird timing

Some stuff on Faker

Faker comes off slightly awkward too but with more a sense of purpose. And the feeling he's hiding something is easily explained by the alt slip. I was almost going to scum read faker but I don't think I have anything there. I agree with Fakers number speculation but scum can dig up past games too. Basically there's a lot there early on but nothing that gives me a read.

The unvote of skitter and unexplained vote on Mare comes off weird to me too. The follow up that he thought he'd find something in Meta and that he can re-vote later if he wants to feels too calculated. And even after that follow up we know nothing about why he voted Mare.

Faker is there anyone reason you'd come off as playing too calculated of a game, that is out of game? Like a personality trait or something?

My take on some Mare/Midway/flow interactions

Flow is kind of coming off as a scum possibility to me. I'll verbalize this better if I still feel that way after reading some more.

Mare seems to be thinking similarly to me because after I thought this I started to feel the same way about midway and then Mare said they might be a team together

However, Midways post about Datisi and Innocentvillager containing one scum felt like a real attempt at solving.

So as of Page 10 I see Mare as town, midway maybe town, and flow maybe scum. If I don't get to a deeper dive into flow right away someone hold me accountable and make sure I do it shortly after this post.

I'd like to know more on why catboi gave midway a town read. I came to the same conclusion but catboi didn't explain and sounds more confident than I feel.

Flow Trap getting attention

I support this push. Basically flow is active and present but when you really break down the posts, there's nothing to show you what Flow is thinking or anything about their reads.

I don't see how Innocentvillager has Flow as town for contradicting the midway post by voting shortly after. Both are individually scummy and I can see them as partners so I'm happy to see attention here. It's interesting a couple pages later seeing flows biggest effort post in the game so far be a town case on Innocentvillager that basically says he's town for having a jokey personality.

Skitter vs Catboi

I really don't see anything here thats gonna make me want to vote either. Skitter does seem to have trouble finding anything major to suspect Catboi for, but acknowledges that in the bullet points. It's enough minor issues to justify a gut read. And Catbois reaction is reasonable. Neither of those makes them for sure town, but I actually agree with Andante that if I absolutely had to vote in this I'd vote Catboi. But there's just as good a chance it's town vs town.

Catboi what did you mean when you said skitter was speedrunning what she said to you?

This section is just for Northsidegal but everyone else is welcome to read it lol

North, we're gonna have to do some real time interaction because your reads are so far off from mine and at the time I'm typing this I have zero clue on your alignment. If it doesn't become more clear to me as I read, I'll want explanations on your reads on Catboi, Innocentvillager, midway, and Datisi.

The first bit of explanation I see on Datisi I'd you scum read his drive by town read on Andante but you admitted it was minor and said you wouldn't be able to explain it well. I'd appreciate an attempt at a deeper dive into this read. My impression on Datisi so far is that nothing stands out to scum read him. But in my other game with him I had him as obvtown for a level of transparency and genuine posting I've rarely seen anyone match. The fact that that is lacking here could mean something but that thing could just be the amount of noise and fluff here. Someone said he tries harder as scum or cares more or something but after the game I just saw him in I doubt thats true because he went all out as town.
^Reading up a little more I think I'm not far off because of his comment about this game feeling "like mud".

The non fluff posting I could find around Page 30ish

I didn't like skitter's read on Datisi, and I was also thinking that skitter wouldn't make a read like that on her buddy. So that potentially indicated Datisi as townie. But I had no reason to suspect skitter, then I would scumread that interaction between nsg and Datisi.

So if skitter were to flip town, would that change your read on North and Datisi? Do you normally make Day 1 reads bases on associatives? It seems like your entire read on Datisi is based on your skitter read being stronger than your North read.

Ironically enough, the above post makes me town read midway. It feels like wheels are turning and there's a real thought process behind those reads whether I agree with them or not. It doesn't feel faked.

Actually midway, am I misreading your datisi/north take? I see some mentions of a Datisi scum read so now I'm confused.

Datisi and North, I have a question thats gonna seem random. Have the two of you ever played a game where North was scum and Datisi was town, and if so how did that go?

[Sleepless Assassin]

- it did not "take me a little bit to be sure what i was seeing", i wanted ico flipped from page 5, i was just galaxy brain fishing for associates (we saw how well that turned out)

Ah ok. I was looking at it at face value but I can see that.

- also i don't really scumread iv at this moment in time so if that's what you're counting as points in my favour maybe scratch that

It looked like you were at first. Am I wrong?

- i could prob write three full paragraphs about self-meta and my wims as town and scum and that and this game specifically so like if you're interested in that lemme know i guess

I'd be curious to see it but if it's a lot of work it's not worth it because self meta isn't as useful as someone else's take especially during the game.

- we have not. i think we've only played once as t/t in a recent white flag game, where nsg repped in like lateish d1 and i was fearkilled n1 so yknow

That's too bad. Well, let me take this route then. How would you expect North as scum to handle town-you?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok I'm home what did I miss this time

[Sleepless Assassin]

It feels weird because most people in this game have received pressure. I think all townies go through suspicion at one point or another, so you sort of remaining on the fringes of that is weird. That part was sort of a gut thing so idk if I explain it too well.
Some takes were: Datisi early game was "cool", SA beetlejuicing was scummy. I know it is only two though...
I gave my reads yesterday. I think my most spicy read atm is that you are scum. Also, I read 1705
I don't read your quoted portion of SA's bigpost as backwards justification. Although I do agree that the reasons given weren't that scum-indicative (for IV), I think it is a reasonable belief to have as town. Ok, the stuff on IV later isn't too great either. I don't really understand why you called him out for his nsg section either.
It just seems to me that you can't really read SA based on his takes because he is perpetually behind. So I would read him based off his real-time interactions and, again, I don't think scum is that open about "beetlejuicing" which makes him a town lean for me.

ok so just to be clear about part of the reason i'm suspicious of SA:
- his real time interactions are utterly lacking as well, they're not something i can really read him off of
- i just (as in two weeks ago just) played a game with him (i.e. see ss's pyp from like two weeks ago), wherein he was significantly easier to read, had real time interactions, popped in occasionally with thoughts, had follow-through between his posts, had significant scumreads, etc, while also being behind and having the same work schedule, so i don't think he should be given a pass here for that at all
- here he's just utterly blah, and i know he can not be as town, so i'm finding it scummy
- like @dats thoughts on sa this game vs that game? same for cakez, pooky, ss, if he read that game, andante?
- the issue i'm taking with his iv read is that it's very flat and shallow, and is nitpicking on like three or four posts and ignoring his body of work. it looks like he's struggling to find reads and to find something to scumread people for

This entire post basically just says this game is moving fast and the last one wasn't

[Sleepless Assassin]

Also last game I didn't fall behind until about Day 3 when Amdante and a few others who were more active replaced in. This game I woke up to 17 pages so I haven't even started to get my bearings yet. Also I think all of like Days 2 and 4 happened without me that game lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

That was a fast moving game too >.>

It wasn't 70+ pages in a week

[Sleepless Assassin]

That feels just as out of nowhere as the vote itself did

[Sleepless Assassin]

F1 is better than Nascar


watching people turning left is boring af

They ran 7 road courses last year

[Sleepless Assassin]

Yeah it was pretty clear that wasn't a serious post

[Sleepless Assassin]

I just need to find time to actually read up so I know what you all are talking about even when it doesn't involve me. I do think the last 12ish hours have been better. But my top priority is still reading the stuff that's probably outdated to everyone else just so I have context. And yeah it's gonna feel pretty surface level. But it's hard to really analyze something without the context. I like to ISO for associatives and things like that but that's all Day 2 and later stuff anyway.

Preview edit: If any of that was repeated I didn't know it when I wrote that. The point of the post is where my head is at. I was hoping to add to it and end it with a reads list but Pooky wanted it right away and I was running out of time anyway. But Innocentvillager isn't my only scum read. I have almost equal confidence in Flow Trap. And I have probably too many "could see them being scum" reads.

[Sleepless Assassin]

pedit >.>

Hey that's not Beetlejuice. There have only been a few posts since I woke up

[Sleepless Assassin]

Like this is the only new post not about me:

VOTE: midwaybear

i still really don't want to kill the best town player on d1 (yes that is a real thought i have as town too) but ya idk what my tiger read is anymore

And I think there's a wagon on midway so it does feel bandwagony but I don't know what Innocentvillager has been saying about midway all along so it's hard to call him out when it's possible he's been wanting this anyway.

[Sleepless Assassin]

sleepless, what did you get from my drunken ramble?

Can you quote it for me?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok.

at first i probably was scumreading iv, but like the big point there is that like i scumread iv every game lol. like he breathes in a scummy way. so the fact that i was scumreading him doesn't actually say anything about his alignment (or my own for that matter bc i would probably have to fake that) and like i am aware that he sounds vvvv scummy to me regardless his alignemtn so you knwo

The fact that you have history with Innocentvillager makes sense just like it did with Iconeum and I can understand being a little gun shy if you've found him scummy as town before. Do you have anything that you have noticed town-him does as scum, specifically? Do you think
I'm falling into that same trap seeing him for the first time?

when i am obvtown, i am obvtown. like. that game you saw we played together, was one of my *holy shit datisi is town* games. my towngame sometimes looks like that - and general rule of thumb is that it looks like that when i have reads i have a degree of confidence in (not necessarily when they're good reads lmao) so. then there are games like this one, where... i don't have very confident reads at the start here. and like the thing is, 95% of my reads are gut, and i still don't know exactly what triggers them, so it's not like i can actually try to make the gamestate be so i get more reads -- p much all i can do is tap in the dark and poke around until my gut does get triggered by stuff.

The first part of that 100% yes that's how I saw you in that game. Second part is about what I think I'm seeing here. After seeing your first game I got the impression you have a strong scum game and I think a few people even said as much. So I don't think seeing you struggle to find that towniness is a scum tell for you. So I'm reading this as probably genuine and it makes sense to me.

this ability to make gutreads early-to-midgame is especially hindered if most of the game thinks i'm scum already - that is what i was talking about with skitter. those instances are *very* rare, but they happen, and i think skitter is aware of that considering she was there for one of my meltdowns like that. which is why i was like "oh skitter is trying to make me relive newbie 1992 huh" (which, fun fact, was *the game* that made me swear on never playing in a newbie game again because holy shit i am not a good example to newbies but anyway uh)

This is eerily relatable and a big part of why I stopped playing and why I stopped being IC in newbie games. Do you think skitter was doing that to you intentionally as opposed to actually seeing something in your play here?

also fun fact fun fact: whenever someone was like "i played with datisi in [game] and he was obvtown there and he's not obvtown here" i was town!! every single goddamn time that happened i was town!! anyway

This feels really genuine and could be proven wrong if it isn't.

And the rest of that post, ok yeah, if I take that at face value and the way you're so open about everything it's hard not to, it's more likely that you are town here than scum.

i honestly have NO CLUE how nsg would be approaching me as scum because (1) i don't know what nsg's opinion is of my towngame considering we played like, very briefly and (2) i have no clue how scum!nsg operates, what she finds important, how she plans to win the game so like -- i genuinely have no idea how nsg would approach me

if that question was supposed to be "how do you plan to read nsg", the answer is sorta "wait until a bit later game, if she stops doing Really Good Analsysiy start pressuring her and go from there"

Actually what I was seeing was North seemed to be playing very carefully with you and that made me wonder if she's worried you'll latch on and tunnel her or something. So I wanted to know if there was any history. When there wasn't I figured who would know better how the two of you play together than the two of you. I'm not gonna ask her because if she's doing something as scum, naturally she's probably not going to say "oh I'd do what I'm doing here". So figured I'd ask. Do you think I'm way off and should drop it or is this something that is possible?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I got that first thing wrong. I meant what town-him does that looks scummy. Don't have face to face conversations while typing lol.

After seeing you in our first game I have a little feel for the way you play and the way you think and I can see it translating to your scum game as well. It's not so much that the game was strong, it's just the feel I get from reading your posts.

I can't really give anything on game state without being caught up except that it's moving fast. But I can give a quick reads list. Let me drive to work first and I'll try to get it done before I go inside.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I rushed this but it's better than nothing for now

Mare - Town. There have been some short paragraphs where I can see where Mare is coming from and follow the thought process

Andante - town. She's playing similarly to last game. I can see resl thought processes even if I don't usually agree. I find it a little weird she seems to think I'm sleeping her when we're not usually on the same page but it's not a big deal. I wasted time getting frustrated with things like that last game.

Sircakez - town. I haven't seen many of his posts but what I've seen looks town. Similar to last game

Midway - I've gone back and forth but lean town

Pooky - I think town.

Datisi - I wanna say town but I'm not nearly as convinced as I was last time. I'll say for sure my read has strengthened some in recent interactions

Skitter - Something feels different this game but can't figure out what. Maybe its just that she's pressuring me this time.

Something Smart - A true null. I haven't seen anything to sway me one way or the other

North - In the PoE pool. I don't have much and some has looked townie but Datisi interactions are a little off.

Catboi - He's one of my "could be scum" reads. I mentioned in my catch up part one I didn't like some of his posting around the time of the Midway stuff and I didn't care a ton for his interactions with skitter although even some of that looked more town than not so yeah I'm kind of scatter brained here. He's one I'll want to ISO to get a better feel.

Faker - I got a "too calculated" read early on but the more I read that may just be the way he posts. Still, I don't see anything to town read him for. So he remains in that PoE pool.

Flow Trap - I still think scum for his spam/meme posting. It feels like trying to maintain a presence without really doing much. And his content didn't seem to be anything that would get him into trouble if he's scum

Innocentvillager- Scum. I've started to go into this one some. I know I need to say more. I'll try.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Skitter my pooky read is pure gut. I really have nothing to back it up other than feeling similar to last game.

Andante, I don't understand why you'd expect me to have a stronger read on skitter after my wall post when the only thing I remember standing out was skitter looking townish in a little 1v1 spat.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I have the next hour free-ish while I get ready for work. Anyone here?

After today I'm off the next four days.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Faker, my ISO for associatives in that game was Day 3 I believe and I was fully caught up with the game. My post here was a partial catchup. I'd be surprised if the two were identical or anything close to it.

The biggest things about Mare working from memory here was a theory about flow and midway that felt like it was thought about and something that felt transparent about it not being worth it to go into a read on you.

I haven't remembered much in your posts outside of tone that made me feel one way or the other.

Sirecskez and Pooky are both people who I just played with as town but haven't seen as scum. What would you be looking for to find differences in their play?

Wait what did Mare claim?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I want to be caught up before I dive into specific slots. ISOs are hard to do without full context.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unvote, Vote flow Trap

[Sleepless Assassin]

I plan on reading some more once I wake up, yes. I'm going to bed first though.

[Sleepless Assassin]

they aren't alts

>.>

<.<

[Sleepless Assassin]

Okay, thank

Sleepless, why do you think people want you dead?

Because I can't keep up with the pace of the game

[Sleepless Assassin]

1 completed scumgame in 4 years

The injustice, smh

I'm probably about the same lol. I can't even remember my last scum game. I probably like dominated it though.

[Sleepless Assassin]

When was that

[Sleepless Assassin]

No me and nsg flipped you >.>

The only game I can find like that was 3 years ago and I was town.

[Sleepless Assassin]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11135322

Skitters last post to me there was asking if I was still having trouble keeping up. I was eliminated Day 2 as town. North was scum and skitter was town.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Tbf i didnt remember that one. I was thinking of this one (which nsg linked already)

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=78246

Kitcat = me (my one and only attempt at alting)
Cultofathena = nsg
Sleepless was scum, i was town, i think nsg was town too but i dont remember for sure

Fwiw i am getting some cold feet on sleepless

Oh wow ok I didn't know either of those alts .

What similarities are you seeing though? I fell behind a couple times but the game was slow enough for me to get caught up when I was free. And I posted with a ton of confidence in my pushes there. Here, I have some strong reads but have had trouble explaining them which rarely if ever happens to me as scum

[Sleepless Assassin]

I played one game in 2021 lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

What are your thoughts on flow trap

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm sufficiently motivated to make an effort to do something besides shitpost.

Any suggestions for me to look at? I'm thinking midwaybear and if I really want to be bold skitter.

I am deeply and mortally wounded by any and all such allegations

~
@sleepless what do *you* think of flow trap (and cakez)

Flow Trap hasn't changed my mind recently.

I haven't seen a sircakez post in a while

So still scum, town respectively.

________

Why does 2573 feel more like trying to prove a track record on talking about flow Trap than discussing a read?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Eh insinuation may have been a better word
Was just me being dramatic

Even setting aside the NASCAR saga, I think you've been weirdly dismissive of the Cakez wagon and haven't taken the time to look at it. I don't think you've given the same benefit of the doubt to Cakez that you have to flow and Sleepless. Sleepless at least has meta reason to be scumread on top of it, not sure about flow.

What is the meta reason? Neither skitter nor north seemed to have anything when that game was linked. Skitter even seems to be backing down from that stance.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm tired of restating the same shit over and over, you can read it yourself. I gave you several to work with and comment on as you found merit or lack thereof in.

It's a big thread and I'm behind so I thought we could discuss something after you said you wanted to discuss something lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

Yeah we had this conversation already lol

That game was slower than this one and I was fully caught up when I went back and ISOd and stuff.

Preview edit: ok

[Sleepless Assassin]

It's hard to follow because my phone is weird with opening links but is I think I get the general idea that you just think flow trap is too hard to read for the most part, right?

[Sleepless Assassin]

ANOTHER MUSE FAN???

They

Will

Not

Force

Us

[Sleepless Assassin]

Faker, I'm not gonna be able to pull anything from an out of context ISO. The best I can do is just keep pushing through the thread and let you know if anything stands out. If it doesn't, that's the time to do some deep diving that's less surface level.

North, if you're scumreading that post of mine you have to think I'm lying. Sircakez is right that I was saying if I was scum I'd have a better time explaining where things are coming from. I usually speak with more confidence as scum. Sometimes as town I can reach that confidence but the control of situations isn't always there. Actually, my last game is a good example of that. My reads were near perfect but we lost because I couldn't sell anyone on them.

[Sleepless Assassin]

North, if you're scumreading that post of mine you have to think I'm lying.

i'm not scumreading that post, i'm just disputing the idea that you're "admitting" something which is town indicative

Right so you have to think I'm lying about scum-me being able to find something to back up reads just to make it look stronger.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I must be misunderstanding sircakez then.

[Sleepless Assassin]

i feel like my point is pretty clear??
and it's not like it's the crux of my argument or anything - I think the first wall is the best argument for Sleepless town

I thought it was too but North is reading it differently than I am.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Catboi and Mare should probably pick flow trap or myself. Three wagons is hard to get agreement on and sircakez only has 2 votes.

SomethingSmart and midway probably should too

[Sleepless Assassin]

sleepless i'm really sorry to keep badgering you, but like, how/when are you planning on catching up and/or how do you think you'll be able to get to a point where you're able to engage with the game more holisitcally?

A little bit at a time when I'm not interacting with my wife and kids. Mostly when they're sleeping. I wish I could give you a time that I'll be finished but it just depends on what free time I get. But I've been here today and I'm doing what I can.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Catboi and I after voting Cakez, knowing well in advance he is flipping green but unable to control our ancestral inheritance

it's inevitable I don't blame you two

cakez I'm mafia and will escape your clutches yet again

I get that this is a joke but it feels like bad faith to me and not something cat would say to a scum Cakez.

I dunno. I looked over that post a few times because my knee jerk reaction was I didn't like it. There's all kinds of psychological WIFOM around people jokingly saying they're scum and it's so hard to figure out whether someone is more likely to do it as town or scum without knowing the person.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I think I agree that it's not a scum/scum interaction though

[Sleepless Assassin]

Is there anything specific you were trying to provoke?

Is there any reason you'd expect a less "deflated" response from town?

I think I like it less after those two posts.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Is there anything specific you were trying to provoke?

Is there any reason you'd expect a less "deflated" response from town?

I think I like it less after those two posts.

You're lacking the context of personal history between us, I've beaten cakez as mafia multiple times and normally he bites at my leg like a yappy chihuahua because he's so eager to catch me, here he made passing reference to thinking I might be scum but didn't follow through, the whole thing fell flat which made me question the seriousness of his belief

Hmm. Ok I guess

[Sleepless Assassin]

I would like to point out that flow hasnt said anything or had any reaction to his wagon yet
(And theoretically he doesnt know abt the extended deadline, so as far as he knows deadline is in like 4 hours or something)

Oh I didn't realize it was extended either. Well that's helpful

[Sleepless Assassin]

I would like to point out that flow hasnt said anything or had any reaction to his wagon yet
(And theoretically he doesnt know abt the extended deadline, so as far as he knows deadline is in like 4 hours or something)

Oh I didn't realize it was extended either. Well that's helpful

lol ok what was your plan before and what do you want to do now with this extra time?

I can only control my own vote. This gives more time for others to consolidate.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Innocentvillager,
My reads haven't changed much since Datisi asked.

I do still scumread you but your recent posting looks less scummy. A flow trap scum flip would probably bring back some more of that confidence.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Skitter shot from nulltown all the way down to medium scum with that, horrible line of attack and I really doubt she isn't aware.

Why is it scummy for skitter to believe town are more likely to post at deadline than scum? I'm not sure I agree with her but I don't think that belief is scummy.

Preview edit: yeah that

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't think skitter meant throwing, just that town usually sees a deadline and thinks "oh I better go see if my vote is needed".

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't think skitter meant throwing, just that town usually sees a deadline and thinks "oh I better go see if my vote is needed".

It was I who said this and the argument that flow needs to vote and post is not lost on me. I am specifically responding to the game throwing accusation in that bullet point.

Wait where was that? I must have missed it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't think skitter meant throwing, just that town usually sees a deadline and thinks "oh I better go see if my vote is needed".

It was I who said this and the argument that flow needs to vote and post is not lost on me. I am specifically responding to the game throwing accusation in that bullet point.

Wait where was that? I must have missed it.

Phone corrected, it was IV not I. 2676 IV says flow is kind of throwing regardless of alignment.

Oh ok yeah I see now. My mistake.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I am legitimately down to flip skitter Day 2.

Think Sleepless is the call today. Entirely self-preservative with still zero substance beyond undercutting questions for the views of others.

What makes you think I'm being self preservative? I had flow trap as my number two scum read before people even voted there and even asked the sircakez wagon to choose between flow trap and myself.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm not going to lecture you only to have you flip harder. Review your ISO, you weren't playing before me and only hopped in to undercut my point and forget your own.

Million points and 12 other players to engage with if my current critique is undesirable. I am not running after you.

So your case is that I worked the weekend? Lol

On my phone and can't easily link. Entire discussion around meta point in 2582 on is one example, that one pedantic discussion on lying with NSG/Cakez, constant cutting into points even tangentially related to him to defend himself (ex. Here when I go after skitter)

Do you expect me to avoid discussion about me as town but respond to it as scum?

he's obviously just tilted at being told to go back to newbie queue

understandable, id prolly be too

Same. That's why I didn't say anything. That was pretty awkward.

[Sleepless Assassin]

lol in a newbie game, I was doc, they started voting me, I was like "yo I'm doc..." and they went "no real doc claims here!! byeeee" I was doc, it was funny XD

One of my first games here there was a doc claim and counter claim and I was a real doc and didn't know what to do. Turns out there were two real docs.

[Sleepless Assassin]

2714 was to S_S.

Second point is a strawman and I don't think engaging with you on it furthers my win condition.

Lmao. You're sure making this game fun

[Sleepless Assassin]

Something_Smart, why are you voting faker here? we have to reach an agreement on who we're voting, and I guarantee you, we're not all agreeing to flip Faker here, I tr him anyways... so are you just trying to waste your vote?

I am an expert at wasting my vote.

I think there is potential scum motivation in stirring up shit here, though of course I'm not pretending that Faker is a viable execution for today.

What scum motivation could there be? Unless you think he's scum whose buddy is near elimination, but in that case wouldn't you just vote one of the two wagons?

[Sleepless Assassin]

anyone wanna let me know if anything actually important has been happening or if it's just more shitfests?

Right now it's basically 1v1 between flow and myself and faker being needlessly rude to Something_Smart

[Sleepless Assassin]

I have uh

Like 5 mins

Who we killin

Me or flow trap. Any other vote is useless

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sleepless who do you think is scum?

Flow Trap and Innocentvillager.

Possibly faker, catboi, north

[Sleepless Assassin]

I have uh

Like 5 mins

Who we killin

Me or flow trap. Any other vote is useless

can you explain why you still think im scum? the updated version?

I don't have anything new except that you were defending flow trap until he got wagoned so associatives are there if he flips scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Flow trap scum for more reasons than just not posting or?

+reasons on the others

Actually he was scummy when he was posting because he showed complete disinterest in solving and just joked and stuff. People say that's just his meta though so meh.

The biggest defense I have for myself if you're null reading both wagons is that my reads tend to get pretty ridiculously good and the people here who played last game with me should know that so if I were to be like cleared by a power role or suddenly widely townread I'd be really helpful and that's probably not true for flow trap.

[Sleepless Assassin]

bleh

i kind of think reads not changing since his big wallpost is a little +scum tbh.

I meant since the reads list Datisi asked for.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Oh ok you found the post I meant.

Yeah move Datisi up towards town. Skitter too but not as much. And maybe switch faker and catboi

[Sleepless Assassin]

you were defending flow trap until he got wagoned so associatives are there if he flips scum.

This makes no sense to me

Why does scum!IV switch from defending at the worst possible time to a bad bus when he’s already set up to play defensively

Like this sounds more like IV!town, plus bussing is p much suicidal in PyP from my relatively recent memory

A lot of people won't bus until their buddy is already in trouble.

[Sleepless Assassin]

you were defending flow trap until he got wagoned so associatives are there if he flips scum.

This makes no sense to me

Why does scum!IV switch from defending at the worst possible time to a bad bus when he’s already set up to play defensively

Like this sounds more like IV!town, plus bussing is p much suicidal in PyP from my relatively recent memory

A lot of people won't bus until their buddy is already in trouble.

Mmmmm, idk

Feel like people will try to get hammer cred or hardbus normally not just moderately change opinion once someone’s getting heat

Anyway, IV is an easy read, if he looks incredibly limbait he’s prob town, if he reads like a v towny boi then he’s scum

The best bussers will do what you described. But I think most players tend to fall into what I described.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm not sure why but that interaction feels like exactly one of catboi/faker is scum.

Nothing there makes me think they're town but they don't sound like acumbuddies.

If that makes sense.

Also I'm only sleeping about 3 hours a night so I'm here to check in any time of day. So if at deadline I need to self vote to secure an elimination I will. But only if flow trap isn't viable.

[Sleepless Assassin]

i wouldn't mind join an impromptu flashwagon on catboi but i doubt that's happening

Nah too late for that

cat potentially scum, yeah sure I agree. While he can be wrong in reading me, would cat town really imply that I am scum given that belief?

No, but the way you lightheartedly said he wouldn't call you more reliable as town feels like shade for the sake of shade and something about that whole discussion feels like one of you is pocketing the other but I can't tell which.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Is it bad to town read Norths dream?

[Sleepless Assassin]

i had a very short part of my dream in which flow flipped scum and everyone laughed at me for being wrong, and i think there was something about someone being a witch: either the witch was me, or maybe it was "flow witch" or something. anyways, this of course has no relevance to the actual game, everyone knows reading tea leaves is the only true way to divine alignments.

on a completely unrelated note, i think it's mildly scum indicative how much datisi's posting seems to have slowed down ever since the sort of "deadline scramble" part of the game began

nsg conftown

yeah datisi not being here not the best look ig but i kind of already loltownbinned him for the day and don't want to parse his alignment

think he's totally capable of actually trying here as scum tho

Guess not lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

Innocentvillager what made you call North town after the dream.post? I'm curious if we're on the same page. You might flip my read with this answer

[Sleepless Assassin]

cat potentially scum, yeah sure I agree. While he can be wrong in reading me, would cat town really imply that I am scum given that belief?

No, but the way you lightheartedly said he wouldn't call you more reliable as town feels like shade for the sake of shade and something about that whole discussion feels like one of you is pocketing the other but I can't tell which.

My point here can be stated two ways. One short one is that the scum would be exactly catboi, if any.

The more fleshed out version is that cat town -> Prism town is more likely than cat town -> Prism scum. cat has been playing with me for 11 and a half years. He hasn't seen me as scum in awhile, but he hears how I think about the game 4-5x a week, and he knows that I never go out of my way to wake the sleeping Pooky as scum instead of just painting my nails and waiting for Elo to punish the inactivity.

To explain the reliable debate, the (not really a) joke is that we both think we suck as town, but believe we are slightly better than the other, and would never admit it even if we didn't. "Reliable" is also definitely not a typical descriptor for me.

Ok that helps put context to it. It doesn't make me feel any more like that was a T/T or S/S interaction though.

[Sleepless Assassin]

only a true weirdo fakeposts about mafia game dreams as scum

Lying about dreams is easy towncred tbh. Advanced strategy.

I don't see the contradiction

I'm a creeeeeeeeep

[Sleepless Assassin]

Innocentvillager what made you call North town after the dream.post? I'm curious if we're on the same page. You might flip my read with this answer

wow high stakes

Spoiler: warning! very advanced reasoning

because i don't think it was faked, and if it's genuine then she's town

I was looking more for why it's town if genuine. I know it probably seems obvious but humor me. I just want to know if your brain did what mine did

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok yeah thats what I was looking for.

It feels like you've played a game where this came up though. It doesn't feel like a new thought. So slightly disappointed

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm still convinced IV is sleepless's partner

Wanna help us bus Innocentvillager first? We could use the town cred from his flip.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok yeah thats what I was looking for.

It feels like you've played a game where this came up though. It doesn't feel like a new thought. So slightly disappointed

well no ive never played a game where someone claimed to have a dream about someone flipping, at least not that i can recall. i did just have the thought immediately when she said it. like literally immediately. i was like what scum fakes this.

Yeah I just feel like I took more steps to get there. Like first was "lol dreaming about the game, can't say I haven't done it though" and then that she dreamed of a flip meant she was wondering in real life about alignments and must be town.

I mean, if the numbers are on IV, I'd 100% vote IV here, but everyone here says IV is town.. so whatever, Sleepless is still maf

I'd rather do flow right now anyway. Which is gonna make you think even more that I'm scum with Innocentvillager but whatever

Could the team really be Skitter/Sleepless/IV? that simple??

How about flow/catboi/Something_Smart?

[Sleepless Assassin]

The joke is that Mare faked a dream iirc

I mean sure it's something that can happen. But was North in a position to feel the need to do it?

[Sleepless Assassin]

ok catboi ill give you that you're probably not scum with flow trap

Why not

[Sleepless Assassin]

The read "wasn't going anywhere" because he hasn't been scummy since I got here real-time. I was already reconsidering. When I saw that he had the same thought as me, I read it open mindedly.

[Sleepless Assassin]

The read "wasn't going anywhere" because he hasn't been scummy since I got here real-time. I was already reconsidering. When I saw that he had the same thought as me, I read it open mindedly.

A lot of our point is that the line about how answering might flip the read felt very performative.

Thats why I just made a post with the actual reason for it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

And that post was exactly why I made the sharper one. The initial felt like it addressed the "not moving" part exclusively.

Well either you believe me or you don't.

So all I can say is

Nuh uh

[Sleepless Assassin]

A close observer might note I quoted the post, meaning I still felt it unaddressed within that context.

It's the middle of the day so my kids are awake. I'm far from a close observer

[Sleepless Assassin]

Who's benhalkum

[Sleepless Assassin]

North knows my main. Or at least she used to. Not sure if she remembers.

I don't think anyone else here does.

Oh, we have skittles here. They'd know too.

[Sleepless Assassin]

ok catboi ill give you that you're probably not scum with flow trap

Why not

don't think he would've been as chilled out if so

he pushed flow as scum for a little bit then kind of switched to you sort of jarringly

but he's not really like, pushing you either

i guess i just thinks he tries harder to avoid his partner's elim given his playstyle avoiding unnecessary bussing when flow was getting some heat already

but idk honestly cuz if catboi didn't tell me that meta bit about himself i wouldn't have made that conclusion so idk

Yeah I dunno that's self meta for ya. It's right unless it isn't lol

[Sleepless Assassin]

i agree but i kinda feel like he wouldn't, like, bother with the white noise like this as scum? or like i don't think he'd be hanging around in thread to bicker with people as scum

Activity as a whole is never an alignment tell for me. Just like me not being here means I'm at work, me being here just means I'm home. Don't town read me for being home.

what do we all think of cakez here?

I'm somewhere between "there's no reason to think he's scum" and "a few of his posts looked a little townish". I'm highly unlikely to vote him today, and would need him to be a compromise to avoid eliminating a strong town read or something later on.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Something_Smart, while reading up I see that your backseat style is intentional. You said you were caught up and normally enjoy fast paced games. What is the reason for playing the way you are?

[Sleepless Assassin]

there is too much resistance to a sleepless vote here for sleepless to be town

I don't think this is a great heuristic. For all we know all 3 scum, none of whom are in danger, are vying for town credit with a Sleepless town flip.

I mean, it's not the sole reason I SR sleepless, but everyone is all "let's wagon cat/cake now!!" like, what's wrong with Sleepless wagon?

Don't you think as scum I'd probably feed some of that and try to survive off of momentum instead of telling people consolidate between flow and myself?

Like if I was scum and could at the very least drag this out and pull wagons apart, Day 2 would just be Day 1.2, get a free NK and probably do flow vs me all over again.

Also if you want to talk about resistance, couldn't you argue that midway, catboi, and sircakez have all seen more?

[Sleepless Assassin]

VOTE: midway

flashwagon go

No! Bad! *Swats Datisi with a rolled up newspaper *

[Sleepless Assassin]

also fwiw i don't think scum sleepless keeps trying to herd votes back to himself .... >.>
should we try a midway flashwagon?

I mean... I'd much rather it be flow but if that doesn't work, I don't like the idea of starting a brand new wagon in 24 hours. It's so much more viable to let people decide between the two existing wagons.

[Sleepless Assassin]

also fwiw i don't think scum sleepless keeps trying to herd votes back to himself .... >.>
should we try a midway flashwagon?

is he trying to herd votes back to himself, though? the argument he seemed to be making was that he would be focusing votes away from flow to try to disrupt wagons, but it seems to me like given that flow is his main counterwagon, trying to disrupt that would only serve to have his own wagon be the strongest. in other words, he's encouraged to get people on flow, because flow is his primary counterwagon and a flow elim seems to be his best shot of not dying today. does that make sense?

No, my argument was that the flow vs me gamestate wouldn't be good for scum-me so I'd throw fuel on the catboi/sircakez hate and hope it either leads to new momentum or ends the day in no elimination basically prolonging my life in the game.

Maybe dumb question but why?

Basically because see above. Lol.

With deadline approaching, we don't want to scramble and risk not eliminating anybody and handing scum a free NK just to be right back where we are now.

[Sleepless Assassin]

fwiw i think at this point i'm willing to vote midway or possibly cakez but i'm not sure that doing either will help anything or the situation at all

It won't...

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm not voting either midway or sircakez unless it's last resort.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm not voting either midway or sircakez unless it's last resort.

You've spoken about this as a practical matter, end-all ban on voting not-you & not-flow.

For the sake of humoring us, can you discuss your actual reads on the slot instead, without a necessity to vote them today attached?

You give two lines on midway, utilizing one quote, in your initial wall suggesting he is town for feeling solvey. The readwall in 1860 mentions going back and forth; this does not make it into your ISO elsewhere.

For Cakez, you don't weigh in at all in the initial wall. In the 1860 readswall, you mention that he seems town for his posts. The only other post that weighs in on Cakez is 2928, which again seems to be very vague and tonal. At one point you also mention never seeing him as scum, and 2578 just gives a brief "still town" read without further explanation.

You just referenced my answer to your own question. Midway I was lightly scumreading early on but came around and now say town. Sircakez has always been a weaker town read.

Working through your ISO, really not a fan again. You dodge many slots wholesale and flow is the only player you've gone to bat on recently, knowing well in advance how coinflippy of a player he is.

I've actually never played with flow trap.

I want to visit the innocentvillager scumread and how it progresses. You went to bat against them earlier, but a brief leads me to it cools into interactions much more selfserving.

Yes it cooled significantly. You're correct.

Meh. Resistance arguments mean absolutely nothing to me and are rarely actually meaningful

They can be useful after a scum flip if you can pinpoint who was resisting.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ugh why are we even voting midway

[Sleepless Assassin]

Look at midways handling of the two wagons.

He had a gut town read on flow, saw the wagon and went "meh maybe I could vote there" but stuck to the gut read and voted me instead. That's a natural thought process. That's not scum with an agenda.

[Sleepless Assassin]

That's not even my thought process. I don't townread flow anymore.

I'm just saying the trajectory flows. I can see where you land on me instead of the guy your gut had as town early on.

[Sleepless Assassin]

@Sleepless sorry if I sound frustrated at you. Your insistence on wanting to die just makes me think you are scum faking it lol

I don't want to die. I want flow to die.

[Sleepless Assassin]

In a perfect world, we eliminate flow, he flips scum, and I get cleared by a power role and carry us to back to back scum eliminations for a town win.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Something_Smart, while reading up I see that your backseat style is intentional. You said you were caught up and normally enjoy fast paced games. What is the reason for playing the way you are?

[Sleepless Assassin]

ugh idk upon further reflection if midway is town this is a bad idea

i don't see this post coming from scum

Somewhat agree. It's more likely coming from town than not but not impossible to be scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

really Bad Vote (and so was catboi's tbh)

I disagree fwiw, it's not a Good Vote but I have been uncharacteristically quiet for someone who normally loves fast-paced games.

idk maybe

I probably owe the game a full reread because I read it all but was only half-focused for a lot of it.

This part made it feel like you were following along but in a backseat kind of role.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sleepless I would like a response to the flow trap part of this post while I'm gone. If you didn't know when half the game has been talking about it for eons, you do now and the meta is trivially verified.

I dunno, I put some stock into meta from other people but not enough to go "oh ok I must be reading this completely wrong" and certainly not enough to completely flip to a town read.

[Sleepless Assassin]

what if we did a last minute pivot and flashwagoned obvscum Mena????

Let's not

[Sleepless Assassin]

This part made it feel like you were following along but in a backseat kind of role.

All that meant was that I compulsively check the site on my phone but don't always pay full attention to the posts.

I do usually play in a more "backseat" way, I suppose, but I'm still not clear on what exactly you're asking.

I was asking the reason for the backseat approach. I thought it was different from normal for you though. If it's not, then it's not important.

I mean you're looking like a saucy alternative right now
lol

I'm aware.

[Sleepless Assassin]

In before no elimination...

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sleepless is trying right now and I don't see any scum motivation in shooting down alternate wagon suggestions; meanwhile flow has done jack shit so I think the choice for me is pretty clear

the scum motivation in being against people currently on your counterwagon exiting your counterwagon to split votes and leave you as the largest wagon seems clear.

i think that it may be a bit of a stretch (or at least i would need some kind of evidence) to say that flow trap's complete absence is indicative one way or the other.

ummm I'm not seeing what you're seeing re;SA wagon

so let me be clear – the scum motivation in shooting down alternative wagon suggestions is that the people that would be switching to those alternative wagons are already voting flow (sleepless' counterwagon), and so them switching would be splitting the vote between that counterwagon and flow, leaving sleepless as the top wagon. i'm not saying that sleepless is scum

because

of this (i think that it's reasonable regardless of alignment), but i don't think that it's towny like you think that it is.

It's more likely that votes from both wagons go to the jew third wagon leaving three people at L-4 or L-5 instead of two at around L-2 or L-1.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Guys with all the resistance to the flow trap wagon he has to be scum

[Sleepless Assassin]

@Something_Smart can u please choose a wagon

Sleepless, please be around to vote for whoever isn't you, whether that's midwaybear or flow trap

don't worry, it's not ending in a no hammer

I'm not voting midway

[Sleepless Assassin]

Looks like deadline is about 3pm my time. I'll be here for the afternoon

[Sleepless Assassin]

If you are voting flow because you think he will be harder to read than SA, then maybe reconsider because flow is probably getting replaced. Also, I think flow’s demotivation this game does seem genuine. I might be getting my timeline wrong, but people (except for maybe Faker) only started suspecting him after he started dropping off in posts. Also think he would try harder as scum in last few posts.

I suspected him for his posting in the first 30 pages.

we had 5 on midway functionallity 6 with SS's vote, maybe Mare and Sleepless would join too

I'm not voting midway.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bah go town

[Sleepless Assassin]

No final reads there fella?

I've posted my reads.

[Sleepless Assassin]

let's see the flip first
SOMEBODY in this game did a good job faking me out pre-flip recently

I'd have claimed a power role about 16 hours ago if I was scum. And probably tried to go after midway or sircakez.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Final guess im gonna say flow/catboi/faker.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Not sure if he should out his draft pick or not? He's #12 so I mean

All it would confirm is that what I tried to pick didn't go to flow or Something_Smart

[Sleepless Assassin]

I went for roleblocker

[Sleepless Assassin]

Over LIME doctor?
(Fwiw, this is incredibly important: i asked schadd if everything can be flavored lime, and he said no)

Didn't know what lime doc was and couldn't find it anywhere

[Sleepless Assassin]

.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Over LIME doctor?
(Fwiw, this is incredibly important: i asked schadd if everything can be flavored lime, and he said no)

Didn't know what lime doc was and couldn't find it anywhere

lol

There's no sample PM or wiki entry or explanation in the setup details.

[Sleepless Assassin]

random.org gave me this readslist:


{Mare, Andante, InnocentVillager}
{Skitter, NsG, Midwaybear, Catboi}
{SA, Datisi, SS, SC, Flow Trap}
{Faker}


post it or too cheeky?

Lmao

[Sleepless Assassin]

Oh sorry I didn't read there was serious stuff here


Hides