CONTROL - GAME OVER!

[Roden]

VOTE: Greeting

[Roden]

VOTE: Roden

Heyo

Hey.

[Roden]

Oof 20 pages in a day.

Bears, LLD, Cephrir, Mastina, Norwe, Tet are all most likely town.

Greeting, Galron, STD, Ircher, Mush contains at least a few scum. My vote stopped being RVS btw.

[Roden]

Roden, why do you think Greeting is the best vote for today?

I hate the RVS analysis posts. They made my eyes glaze over and it just read as information-over-analysis to me. It's typically a town tell to me, but there's a thin line between actually town telling and just LAMIST serious analysis posts.

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

[Roden]

roden's posts are yucky

Go on.

[Roden]

Roden, why do you think Greeting is the best vote for today?

I hate the RVS analysis posts. They made my eyes glaze over and it just read as information-over-analysis to me. It's typically a town tell to me, but there's a thin line between actually town telling and just LAMIST serious analysis posts.

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

So, I took the time to analyse two players who were under suspicion at the moment and tried to understand the arguments against them and that's bad?

Half of the votes this game have either been not explained at all, or were given three lines of text at most. At least that's my impression. Sorry for wanting to make a more informed choice as to whom I'm voting out.

I also think that

Lady Lambdadelta

is town but I don't see a shred of an explanation why her being town makes me scum.

This weird spin on what happened just makes me feel even worse about your posts.

[Roden]

Bears, LLD, Cephrir, Mastina, Norwe, Tet are all most likely town.

Greeting, Galron, STD, Ircher, Mush contains at least a few scum. My vote stopped being RVS btw.

this read list sucks it leaves a lot to be desired

the phrase "contains a few scum" feels fake

your vote for greeting is weird it comes with no explanation but you stopped being RVS (tbf you explain it later, but i hate it too so...)

you stick Ircher on there but don't want to vote him because you want to look like you're in agreement with the consensus but are waiting until later to actually be like "i guess we'll go ircher" it's making me think ircher might be town and you're scum

Roden, why do you think Greeting is the best vote for today?

I hate the RVS analysis posts. They made my eyes glaze over and it just read as information-over-analysis to me. It's typically a town tell to me, but there's a thin line between actually town telling and just LAMIST serious analysis posts.

this feels fake as hell i don't know how to describe it you're like a scummy cat waving your paw around

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

this is weird as heck, why do you think greeting is unaligned with LLD

Yeah I know my reads list sucks, once we cut the player list in half and we're more than 48 hours into the game it'll probably look better.

"Contains a few scum" isn't a fake statement. My reads aren't strong but I feel like my read rate early in the game is usually 50/50, so I feel that some of my scum reads are probably correct.

STD what kind of low level scum do you think I am that I would telegraph an Ircher miselim like that? If I was scum and he was town I'd just vote him, it really wouldn't be hard to blend in with a wagon that would have twelve people on it.

Idk why you think my explanation of the Greeting vote is fake. I think your reaction is fake if anything lol.

I don't think LLD and Greeting are aligned because I town read one and scum read the other.

greeting just seems so townie it looks like you're scum who can't see that and are doubling down on a bad read

If I'm scum the read wouldn't be bad lol, it would just be wrong. Weird that you'd apply town logic to me if you're scum reading me.

my only hesitation is that i always scumread you

To be fair I think I've been scum almost every time we've played together.

[Roden]

ehhh I can see someone saying "bad play=antitown=scum" in their head tbh, and Roden joindate makes that feel more likely even???????

The anti-alignment of LLD and Greeting is fully fabricated tho LOL and REGARDLESS of alignment bro needs to walk that shit back big time like why you gotta make shit up, just say you had a gut read LOL

I feel like it's pretty clear that it has to be partially based on a gut read.

[Roden]

ehhh I can see someone saying "bad play=antitown=scum" in their head tbh, and Roden joindate makes that feel more likely even???????

The anti-alignment of LLD and Greeting is fully fabricated tho LOL and REGARDLESS of alignment bro needs to walk that shit back big time like why you gotta make shit up, just say you had a gut read LOL

I feel like it's pretty clear that it has to be partially based on a gut read.

Also "bad play = anti-town = scum" wasn't my thought process actually.

[Roden]

why don't you explain your scum reads

Sure.

If I'm scum the read wouldn't be bad lol, it would just be wrong. Weird that you'd apply town logic to me if you're scum reading me.

scum can pick a bad target to read

scum can

pick a

bad

target to

read

Did you?

I don't think LLD and Greeting are aligned because I town read one and scum read the other.

this looks like a walk back you originally said you tr one and therefore scumread the other because they're unaligned.

VOTE: roden

STD do you honestly believe my scum grand plan was to give half assed reads then fuck around with you after you give a really uninteresting scum case on me

[Roden]

i know roden's good at scum and he's good at the game, he's not going to be bad town

I'm not bad town but Day 1 has historically been hell for me, even when I'm IC. I'm also unfamiliar with the theme and have no idea what the setup is supposed to be, so I really don't think I'll be useful until after stuff happens and less people are around to keep track of. Or if I get shit pushed too I guess.

On the plus side I think the "anger = town" meta has finally started dying down so that's been nice.

STD do you honestly believe my scum grand plan was to give half assed reads then fuck around with you after you give a really uninteresting scum case on me

this ignores what i said because it's truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue

Even if it were true, you're saying you'd scum read me if I stayed the course and still scum read me if I walked it back. That's a pretty dishonest way to try to read me and I'm not sure what you expect me to do here. Just make it clear and say you're tunneling me.

[Roden]

i can tunnel scum

I'd appreciate it if you actually did.

you're still ignoring the fact you walked back your statement. had you explained it rationally why you thought LLD and Greeting were connected i would have probably backed down because you would have answered my question. instead you're flailing by saying things like "uninteresting case"

Do you not see the dissonance in saying I'm a good scum player but then also saying I'm flailing scum that got caught after getting asked a single question?

[Roden]

Even if it were true, you're saying you'd scum read me if I stayed the course and still scum read me if I walked it back. That's a pretty dishonest way to try to read me

what's dishonest about that? if someone thinks you've performed a scummy action are they obligated to let you go if you hit the right note?

That isn't what I said. Scum reading someone no matter what they say or do, and explicitly making it clear that that's what you're doing, isn't a real attempt at reading somebody.

VOTE: Roden

I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to make yourself mis-elim bait.

[Roden]

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

if x, then y

I don't think LLD and Greeting are aligned because I town read one and scum read the other.

x and y

that's a change of what you said

people can judge for themselves

You...realize that you've just made it very clear that the contents of what I said never changed, right?

[Roden]

If I shout it louder will it get through your thick skull

IF X, THEN Y vs JUST X AND Y

Hmmm...this feels genuine. Yeah you're probably town then.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to make yourself mis-elim bait.

ooh, threats!! my unvote is on its way now for sure!!

Even if it were true, you're saying you'd scum read me if I stayed the course and still scum read me if I walked it back. That's a pretty dishonest way to try to read me

what's dishonest about that? if someone thinks you've performed a scummy action are they obligated to let you go if you hit the right note?

That isn't what I said. Scum reading someone no matter what they say or do, and explicitly making it clear that that's what you're doing, isn't a real attempt at reading somebody.

"Scumreading you whether you walk back what you said or not"
"Scumreading you no matter what you say or do"

these aren't the same. you seem to have an issue with revisionism, friend!

You really like making your life difficult for no reason, huh?

[Roden]

I always find it funny when previous scum buddies see my playstyle and thought process in detail, then see me act the complete opposite in another game and accuse me of being scum lol.

By funny I mean tiring.

[Roden]

i don't particularly remember how you played in the game we were scum together it was a while ago

You might want to at least reread it before claiming I'm a good scum player. It implies you know my playstyle as scum and that you're able to read me effectively.

you still kinda haven't really argued the points against you and i think if you were town you'd do different than just sniping people attacking you

Actually this is exactly what I do as town. I don't know why you think scum me is obvious and town me is a paragon of townie-ness.

You really like making your life difficult for no reason, huh?

you really think blustering is a good substitute for playing the game, huh?

This is me getting the last word in our argument.

[Roden]

VOTE: Galron

[Roden]

It's ok Ceph, the more you shit push the more I think I could be wrong about my read on you anyway.

[Roden]

explain what's shit about it or shut the fuck up <3

Maybe the fact that you saw a reads list with all twenty other players in it and you got bent out of shape specifically over the town read on me?

Or maybe the fact that your emotional investment in eliminating me is OTT and doesn't really match the little actual investment you have in trying to solve me?

Not to mention you haven't really had a single original take on me and have just been piggybacking what other people have said?

Your aggression in general has been completely unnecessary and came out of nowhere. It reeks of someone who's purposely trying to rile me up to shit up the thread with a dumb fight.

Also you've seen my weaknesses as scum and I honestly cannot fathom why you wouldn't try to target them if you actually scum read me.

[Roden]

This Roden argument is more pendantic than legal definitions defining what a search is. Let's not split hairs.

~Mama

it's not. he is straight up gaslighting to make it look that way

48 hours in and someone has already misused and delegitimized the term "gaslighting" to try to win an argument.

[Roden]

This Roden argument is more pendantic than legal definitions defining what a search is. Let's not split hairs.

~Mama

it's not. he is straight up gaslighting to make it look that way

48 hours in and someone has already misused and delegitimized the term "gaslighting" to try to win an argument.

Just don't. Commenting here isn't helping you either. I feel the term gaslighting is completely appropriate to use in mafia but moderators have disagreed. Just because I feel Cephrir has used it wrong, doesn't mean that he's malicious with it. In fact, that's very indicative of Cephrir not being scum.

So just take a chill pill and do something else with this thread.

You don't get any kiss ass points for this topic as it is very triggering.

~Mama

No offense but that post wasn't for you or to appeal to you. I have my own grief with the term outside of this site but it's nothing I want to get into.

[Roden]

explain what's shit about it or shut the fuck up <3

Maybe the fact that you saw a reads list with all twenty other players in it and you got bent out of shape specifically over the town read on me?

bent out of shape? that's what one comment poking fun at mastina having bad reads is?

Or maybe the fact that your emotional investment in eliminating me is OTT and doesn't really match the little actual investment you have in trying to solve me?

i do get upset when you intentionally misrep me, yes. that also makes me very not interested in good faith engagement with you. you've done nothing to solve besides lie. it's not hard to solve that

Not to mention you haven't really had a single original take on me and have just been piggybacking what other people have said?

untrue

Your aggression in general has been completely unnecessary and came out of nowhere. It reeks of someone who's purposely trying to rile me up to shit up the thread with a dumb fight.

i'm excited that i have a read i feel good about

Also you've seen my weaknesses as scum and I honestly cannot fathom why you wouldn't try to target them if you actually scum read me.

i have played 2 scum games with you. i have no idea what your weaknesses are, and it's pretty weird to assume that everyone must play town in this calculated a manner

Yes, bent out of shape.

I haven't misrepped you and lying isn't inherently scummy.

Very true and you're free to name one.

I don't see excitement.

Aren't you mad that I'm not playing calculated town?

My dude this is just a shit fight and we're getting nowhere. Take a step back and come back to this later because you're flailing right now.

[Roden]

I will truly never understand how people have full access to my scum tells yet literally refuse to refer to them to instead tunnel me over inane posts that don't mean anything.

[Roden]

My dude this is just a shit fight and we're getting nowhere

i mean, you sure made it look like one by using this post to say "no u" five times, sure

Now

that's

a misrep.

[Roden]

VOTE: Ircher

[Roden]

VOTE: Roden

Why do you think I'm scum?

[Roden]

Didn't we already argue this to death

We argued sure but I don't think we're on the same wavelength. I don't understand the crux of your argument, or at least I don't understand why you think my behavior comes from scum.

The only thing I kind of get is the backtrack/backpedal argument but I don't really agree with it. I don't like the idea that backpedaling is scummy, it would be one thing if I never gave a solid read ever but that wasn't what happened. I gave some shotgun reads a little over 24 hours into the game and even said they weren't solid but wanted to get my starting thoughts out there. But I'm not going to be receptive to adjusting my reads or acknowledging a scum case on me, if the reaction to seeing me go back on a read is to call it backpedaling and tell me I'm scummy for backpedaling. Like, I'm just going to fight it and not even say I'm backpedaling if you're going to frame it as scummy, and it isn't really reasonable to believe I should react differently. I'm just never going say I'm doing "X Act" when someone says "X Act" is scummy, that's just my initial reaction to everything, if not outright arguing against the notion the "X Act" is scummy.

Especially since it puts me in a situation where I'm being called scummy for backpedaling but also scummy for not admitting I'm backpedaling. To me that just reads as a "gotcha" trap where the entire point of the interaction is to call me scummy no matter what I do. The concept that backpedaling is a scum tell doesn't even make sense to me, because I have zero reasons to be so confident in my reads so early into the game.

So if this was the main reason for scum reading me then now you know exactly why I disagree and think the reasoning is flawed. If it's something else then idk what it could possibly be.

[Roden]

Didn't we already argue this to death

We argued sure but I don't think we're on the same wavelength. I don't understand the crux of your argument, or at least I don't understand why you think my behavior comes from scum.

The only thing I kind of get is the backtrack/backpedal argument but I don't really agree with it. I don't like the idea that backpedaling is scummy, it would be one thing if I never gave a solid read ever but that wasn't what happened. I gave some shotgun reads a little over 24 hours into the game and even said they weren't solid but wanted to get my starting thoughts out there. But I'm not going to be receptive to adjusting my reads or acknowledging a scum case on me, if the reaction to seeing me go back on a read is to call it backpedaling and tell me I'm scummy for backpedaling. Like, I'm just going to fight it and not even say I'm backpedaling if you're going to frame it as scummy, and it isn't really reasonable to believe I should react differently. I'm just never going say I'm doing "X Act" when someone says "X Act" is scummy, that's just my initial reaction to everything, if not outright arguing against the notion the "X Act" is scummy.

Especially since it puts me in a situation where I'm being called scummy for backpedaling but also scummy for not admitting I'm backpedaling. To me that just reads as a "gotcha" trap where the entire point of the interaction is to call me scummy no matter what I do. The concept that backpedaling is a scum tell doesn't even make sense to me, because I have zero reasons to be so confident in my reads so early into the game.

So if this was the main reason for scum reading me then now you know exactly why I disagree and think the reasoning is flawed. If it's something else then idk what it could possibly be.

I'm also wary of both you STD and Cephir because tonally you come off as town, but your cases against me are so far off the mark that I'm naturally going to be suspicious of you. Ceph especially, because I know it's in his scum range to try to target players he perceives to be LHF or easy to dominate in an argument, hence why I don't like his OTT abrasive attitude with me beyond the fact that it's unpleasant to deal with.

It isn't just OMGUS either, and I have very good reason to suspect foul play because every single game I've been in has had some player who either clashes hard with me or is scum trying to get what they think is an easy mis-elim. And I do mean every game, and most of the time I expel so much time and energy trying to stamp out the Day 1 death tunnel yet still end up dying Day 1/Night 1 anyway. And you can claim "oh woe is me" or whatever but I honestly don't care, I'm trying to explain my mind set and frustration so you get why I'm talking and acting the way I am. I can't be any more transparent than I'm being now.

[Roden]

We argued sure but I don't think we're on the same wavelength. I don't understand the crux of your argument, or at least I don't understand why you think my behavior comes from scum.

you said a thing, you backtracked on thing, instead of answering points against you, you discredited the argument which is something scum does because they can't argue normally because they come from a place of untruth. you dropped ATE which looks scummy as hell to try and divert suspicion off of you.

The only thing I kind of get is the backtrack/backpedal argument but I don't really agree with it. I don't like the idea that backpedaling is scummy, it would be one thing if I never gave a solid read ever but that wasn't what happened. I gave some shotgun reads a little over 24 hours into the game and even said they weren't solid but wanted to get my starting thoughts out there. But I'm not going to be receptive to adjusting my reads or acknowledging a scum case on me, if the reaction to seeing me go back on a read is to call it backpedaling and tell me I'm scummy for backpedaling. Like, I'm just going to fight it and not even say I'm backpedaling if you're going to frame it as scummy, and it isn't really reasonable to believe I should react differently. I'm just never going say I'm doing "X Act" when someone says "X Act" is scummy, that's just my initial reaction to everything, if not outright arguing against the notion the "X Act" is scummy.

the point was to prove you were backpedalling, i don't really care how you fight it. saying x and y were related and then jumping back is testing the waters as scum and then realizing you made a mistake, that's the way i see it. town doesn't need to backpedal because they tell the truth

Especially since it puts me in a situation where I'm being called scummy for backpedaling but also scummy for not admitting I'm backpedaling.

wrong. all you had to do was explain why you backpedaled. you failed to do that.

I can't really help you with your death tunnel at this point then. I thoroughly explained everything and you're still claiming I explained nothing. You're also accusing me of lying but like...where did I lie? I admit I discredited you but you kind of make it easy when your argument is weak. You're still latched onto something that you know isn't actually alignment indicative, and even when given a response that explains everything I just get "nope you're still scum" from you. Literally zero nuance.

Also you and Ceph both beetlejuicing and attacking me back to back looks sus and organized as fuck. No idea why you're going out of your way to make yourself look as scummy as possible in pushing my mis-elim if you're scum, but if you're both town this death tunnel makes even less sense. So I have no idea what to make of it.

Either way you've been given multiple reasons and explanations for why I'm town, and not just from me but from others as well, and you've just chosen to ignore it to keep calling me scum no matter what is said. If you don't want to honestly engage with me on this then I don't particularly feel guilty engaging with you just as honestly.

[Roden]

@STD and Ceph:

What do you think about Ircher vs Meg?

[Roden]

VOTE: Galron

I didn't post between 559 and this. What's changed so you're no longer voting me?

@

Roden

I reevaluated. Your posts pinged me, but so did some others but more so. Plus I don't see the point in parking my vote Day 1.

[Roden]

@STD and Ceph:

What do you think about Ircher vs Meg?

I'm not sure there's anything particularly vs. about them.

I'd be deciding between the two of them for my vote if you didn't exist.

So are you parking a vanity vote or are you going to rally the player list to vote me out first?

Not sure how you don't see them as competing wagons btw.

Either way you've been given multiple reasons and explanations for why I'm town, and not just from me but from others as well, and you've just chosen to ignore it to keep calling me scum no matter what is said. If you don't want to honestly engage with me on this then I don't particularly feel guilty engaging with you just as honestly.

this is bullshit

Why and how? Also I was serious when I asked you to point out where I lied.

@STD and Ceph:

What do you think about Ircher vs Meg?

why aren't you asking what we think of each other if you think we're mafia together

Because you've already gone over that.

When did I say I think you're both mafia and why would that matter for the question I asked?

@STD and Ceph:

What do you think about Ircher vs Meg?

i think they are distractions at this point

Explain.

[Roden]

Either way you've been given multiple reasons and explanations for why I'm town, and not just from me but from others as well, and you've just chosen to ignore it to keep calling me scum no matter what is said. If you don't want to honestly engage with me on this then I don't particularly feel guilty engaging with you just as honestly.

this is bullshit

Actually I really want to hone in on this. Are you saying you haven't called me scum no matter what I or anyone else has said?

[Roden]

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

just explain this and i'll unvote you

I half said that because of their interactions, and half said that just to see what others thought.

Why would you unvote me for this specific explanation?

When did I say I think you're both mafia

Also you and Ceph both beetlejuicing and attacking me back to back looks sus and organized as fuck

Me saying your posts look bad and will look bad to everyone else in hindsight after my potential mis-elim =/= calling you both scum.

So are you parking a vanity vote or are you going to rally the player list to vote me out first?

Not sure how you don't see them as competing wagons btw.

i am not much of a rallier. but i'm still holding out hope it will happen, yes

:shrug:

Why?

[Roden]

I half said that because of their interactions, and half said that just to see what others thought.

will you elaborate

...About what?

Me saying your posts look bad and will look bad to everyone else in hindsight after my potential mis-elim

once again, this is not what the snippet i quoted says

I'm the one who wrote that post...? I know I said. Why are you trying to convince me what I wrote isn't what I wrote?

Why?

because your role pm is red. hope that helps!

Doesn't answer the question.

[Roden]

Curse done adulting for the day, its real fuckin gremlin hours here and im gonna stuff myself full fo mac n cheese while i shitpost at yall

Good lord roden youre scummy as fuck LOL tbh i think you exist rn to take heat off ircher, you bein hung out to dry buddy ol pal looooooooool

Anyway rn we got what, roden irch t3??? is that right????? And i dont hate meg-slot for scum which means its prob a miselim tbh feels like compromise vote bullshit what the fuck yall doin

Andante town as fuck out here, ceph town as fuck out here idgaf, tbh i wonder if we can solve by poe like i was jokin after andantes entrance

Explain.

[Roden]

I half said that because of their interactions, and half said that just to see what others thought.

will you elaborate

...About what?

can you go into more detail about what you just said

Uhhh...I don't know what else to say.

[Roden]

I'm the one who wrote that post...? I know I said. Why are you trying to convince me what I wrote isn't what I wrote?

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I'm pointing out to everyone else how you continue to pretend your own posts say whatever you wish they said when challenged on their content.

That's not what's happening though? You're quoting a post and saying it says something it doesn't. If I'm telling you it doesn't say what you're claiming and I'm correcting you, then that means you're either misinterpreting me or misrepping me. And if what I wrote was just worded poorly, which I don't think it was, then my follow up post should be seen as a clarification.

[Roden]

is this just a failure of communication

roden if i called you sus and organized what do you think that would mean

I don't think it is? I don't know if you expected a more complex answer but there wasn't anything else to my thought process.

If you said my actions were sus and organized I'd say "where" because the context clearly isn't the same. If I were in your place though I'd probably ask "why", but you also think I'm scum saying this, so if I were tunneled I'd just brush it off.

i don't know why i should move my vote then :S

[Roden]

I'm the one who wrote that post...? I know I said. Why are you trying to convince me what I wrote isn't what I wrote?

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I'm pointing out to everyone else how you continue to pretend your own posts say whatever you wish they said when challenged on their content.

That's not what's happening though? You're quoting a post and saying it says something it doesn't. If I'm telling you it doesn't say what you're claiming and I'm correcting you, then that means you're either misinterpreting me or misrepping me. And if what I wrote was just worded poorly, which I don't think it was, then my follow up post should be seen as a clarification.

I don't agree.

You don't get to say you don't agree. This is a very cut and dry situation, there is no agreeing or disagreeing. What you really mean is that you know I have a point but you can't admit it.

Roden, why aren't you scum this game?

What is the point of this question? If you're asking me to prove that I'm town, I can't, especially on Day 1. Even if I role claimed it wouldn't prove anything.

[Roden]

Curse done adulting for the day, its real fuckin gremlin hours here and im gonna stuff myself full fo mac n cheese while i shitpost at yall

Good lord roden youre scummy as fuck LOL tbh i think you exist rn to take heat off ircher, you bein hung out to dry buddy ol pal looooooooool

Anyway rn we got what, roden irch t3??? is that right????? And i dont hate meg-slot for scum which means its prob a miselim tbh feels like compromise vote bullshit what the fuck yall doin

Andante town as fuck out here, ceph town as fuck out here idgaf, tbh i wonder if we can solve by poe like i was jokin after andantes entrance

Explain.

godddd this is such a nothing post LOL what the fuck you want explained??? youre so scummy your teams gotta be using you to muddy the waters, theres nothing to explain, it says what it says

anyway looks like curse actually exhausted the body so were headed to sleep soon actually WHOOPS. fuckin hate it here LOL but we're too goddamn tired to do shit godddddddddd

PEDIT: norwegian i think we should push the stalled scum wagon still on principle tbh so im gonna sit on it unless a non-compromise wagon gets closer which tbh look at this game state here LOL its a mess trying to demoralize and muddy shit. way things look im predicting either we push irch thru or we get a mislim tbh

You keep saying I'm scummy but you won't case me. You just keep making a bunch of emotional driven posts where you spam "lol" and I'm not getting anything out of it.

[Roden]

i think you missed the point

you called us sus and organized but then got in a twist when we were like "so you think we're mafia" so I guess i'm trying to figure out what you meant by sus and organized if you didn't mean you thought we were mafia together

I'm saying it

looks

that way! I already said I don't think you're scum but your actions come off as scummy.

[Roden]

@roden, self meta. say as scum you'd be doing y, not x and say why you're town because you're doing z not w.

I don't really know how to answer this because I don't think I do any certain noticeable things as scum that I wouldn't do if I were town. I think if anything, being informed makes me less concerned/stressed about appearances or what others think of me, because I know anyone who scum reads me kind of has a point. But if I'm town and getting scum read I also have to determine if if the scum read is genuine, a bad push from town, or a push from scum trying to take advantage of me, and that is just infinitely more stressful to me. Especially because even when I'm IC I've been hard pushed by scum and Vig'd by town, and I genuinely just have trouble reading people's intentions.

So idk. As scum, at most I'd say the biggest difference is that I feel more confident trying to work townies and sway them my way since I don't have to actually read them. I generally just find it easier to play scum since I'm basically just putting on a mask and I don't need to understand others, while town me is unfiltered, combative, and usually lost during Day 1.

[Roden]

I can't really help you with your death tunnel at this point then.

I didn't think your initial posts and arguments were too scummy. As I mentioned before, I've seen plenty of stubborn town players that stick to their guns even when they are wrong. However, the continued focus on defending and arguing back in place of forming reads (that are not based entirely in OMGUS) strikes me as a tactic scum adopts. Not only is it distracting to the rest of the thread, it makes you look busy while in reality, you are just treading the same old ground again and again.

This doesn't make any sense. Am I not supposed to defend myself when I'm being accused? And at what point am I "treading the same ground again and again" when I'm not even the one bringing up those posts? You're acting like I'm going around picking fights, yet Ceph took a pot shot at me over a read Mastina made earlier and reignited our shit fight, and Val is scum reading me over a post I made almost a week ago while apparently have zero opinions on anything else that's happened even though he claimed to read the entire thread.

Also claiming OMGUS is lazy and not even factual because I town read two out of the three loudest voices who claim I'm scum. I've already gone through why Ceph and STD's cases on me are meh, but I think tonally they're both town and that their reactions to some of my posts feel genuine. My Mush scum read is the only one you could call OMGUS but even that's a stretch because Mush just keeps spamming "you're scum lol" and ignores me when I tell it to explain it's read. "LOL you're just scum lol" isn't a case and I'm not the only one it's doing that to either.

[Roden]

Oh Save the Dragons! You'd said prevously you had SR Rodan frequently in previous games. Is it ok to ask for some examples?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87368 roden scum and i scumread him

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87504 roden town and i scumread him

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87201 roden and i were scum together didn't really scum read him

Can you explain what's similar to my scum games there that is pinging you in this game?

[Roden]

Just realized you linked one of the IC games lol.

i mean you said this

[STD's] gut read on me feels iffy since he should know my scum play is different than this

which is the point i believe you're trying to make now

I also said that in town games, so we already know that's NAI. What else?

[Roden]

Ceph took a pot shot at me over a read Mastina made earlier and reignited our shit fight

ah yes i too remember when i drove to your house and held a gun to your head to force you to respond to a comment that wasn't directed at you

What is the point of posts like these if not to start another shit fight?

[Roden]

I also said that in town games, so we already know that's NAI. What else?

where have you said that as town

If I hunt through my town games to quote every instance of this, would it actually change your mind or would I be wasting my time?

[Roden]

Ceph took a pot shot at me over a read Mastina made earlier and reignited our shit fight

ah yes i too remember when i drove to your house and held a gun to your head to force you to respond to a comment that wasn't directed at you

What is the point of posts like these if not to start another shit fight?

to defend myself against the aspersions being cast on my character

Do you not see that I have done the exact same thing? Or that you just did the exact same thing you accused me of?

[Roden]

i just want one

i don't think i'm asking for a lot here

Honestly LQ why are you scum reading me at all when you've recently seen two of my scum games in depth? You should know this isn't it from my opening posts alone.

Me vs scum shit pushing me after they got caught.

Can't quote from Scarlet Witch but you can just see my ISO there. I die Day 1 to a bunch of townies shit casing me and calling me guaranteed scum based on vibes. I also catch scum but I get called scummy and told my read is wrong, said scum read proceeds to endgame town and win.

Same with Chrono Trigger since it's also locked. Day 1 is rough again and I pretty thoroughly explain my meta to Noraa. She's been defending me so much this game exactly because of that game.

What does that mean he failed the vibe check?

It means his vibes this game are terrible. Pretty much every time I've faced scum!Roden he's pinged me a certain way, and his comment about Enchant not pushing his reads hit that note.

...Except he didn't push his reads, and he got voted out for it. Do you actually think giving up and accepting his mis-elim was the optimal play here? Because the reason he got voted was exactly because of that. He was focused more on teasing quick hammers than actually scum hunting.

Also I'm just taking this stance from you as that you're either scum fake vibe checking me, or you're town and admitting that you don't actually know how to read me at all. I'm not nearly this aggressive and active as scum, and I would never try to inject life into a dead game. I also wouldn't ever try to give Enchant a chance to save himself by giving him as many outs as I did.

You're free to show examples comparing my actions this game to past scum games though.

VOTE: Roden
you failed the vibe check

But I do think kyouko hasn’t made much of a splash and might be scum as a result if enchant is town.

?

they can both be scum

Then why are you voting me on vibes and not Kyouko when you scum read her through meta?

Can anyone explain why Moz was the kill here? I don't see a crumb in his ISO, I don't think he made any serious reads, and I don't think he was globally TR'd even.

No idea tbh. Which is probably the point, it's a low info kill in a low info game. Scum probably just got lucky with Mozamis being a PR.

This game was extra fun because I had nearly the entire player list on my ass for most of the game, with three townies Gamma Galron and Penguin hard tunneling me. I still got fear killed by scum though.

I don't know why scum didn't kill Roden but he's still locktown.

WIFOM + I've fake softed a role D1 before. Alternatively, scum has a Rolecop or something else that can check for specific roles, and they decided checking me first was a good idea.

what if scum killed sb9 to let scumbuddy roden off the hook

or is that too paranoid

Off the hook how? I was gonna push sb9 next.

i mean he was gonna try to get you to claim today

now you don't have to

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

"Don't have to" lol I was never going to. He literally could not force me to claim. If I'm not at E-1, I don't have to claim, and he certainly wasn't gonna make that kind of push considering T3 was his only scum read and he did nothing to try to get him elim'd.

StD you're really not doing a lot to convince me you're town anymore because you already know my scum thought process. This isn't it, and your shade attempts on me don't look good.

Probably don't need to go into detail with this one.

Do you need more?

[Roden]

I don't have a strong read on LLD at this point, but Greeting is one of my top two townreads

Nevermind, looking again, LLD is also pretty strongly town to me. I didn't realise the significance of the mod reaction first time around.

That makes Rodens claim that LLD and Greeting are unaligned even more ???.

@Roden: Like, dude, come on. I've seen your play and coming up with a read on such absolute nonsense is just so far out of the range, I think I must be missing something.

All I want is for you to explain the thinking there. At the moment it looks like very much like you pulled it out of your arse to fit a scum agenda. I think strongly that Greeting is town here, but I understand

why

people night have said Greetings play was surface level scummy, so a fake push there looks like where I might have gone as scum.

The more you bluster around and lean on your white knights and try and shade your accusers, instead of just explaining the logic there, the more it just looks like you've been caught with your trousers down with that - but everyone is allowed a off game every now and again, I guess.

Val...I

did

explain it. I've explained it several times now. I'm not going to do it again.

How is this the one and only thing that's managed to catch your attention, yet you somehow don't know that I've addressed it?

[Roden]

How is this the one and only thing that's managed to catch your attention

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain

yet again

to you or anyone else.

No, you didn't. You never addressed that until just now, and your takes are indeed scarce.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Val's ISO

Hi all.

Finished my first read through.

VOTE: Roden

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

Put me down as another player who would like an actual explanation as to this.

I'm still sus (that means i think you're scum, Roden) on Roden but i think we've milked this stone for all the blood it's going to give

See, the problem is I usually find Roden to match my mental model of what town play looks like, and has escaped me as scum on more than one occasion. To see Roden play that feels as scummy as this is weird, I don't know how else to describe it.

The main problem is this LLD/Greeting unalignment issue. I don't have a strong read on LLD at this point, but Greeting is one of my top two townreads (STD being the other) from my first read through, and I don't see any reasonable basis for concluding any associative between the two, and the explaination given is no explaination at all.

I get the impression that the way Roden is trying to deal with this is a kind of treat the whole accusation as silly and anyone asking about it as being worthy of shade, and hope it'll all blow over, which it kindof has. I hoping that by continuing to bring attention back around to it, and hammer than it's not just you thinking that way, that Roden might hopefully be forced to abandon that approach.

TLDR: I'm going to continue at least attempting to milk here. I think it'll prove worth the effort one way or another.

This is the first game I've played featuring hydra, and I'm struggling to get a handle on how to approach them.

Which one of the three bears goes by faer?

I don't have a strong read on LLD at this point, but Greeting is one of my top two townreads

Nevermind, looking again, LLD is also pretty strongly town to me. I didn't realise the significance of the mod reaction first time around.

That makes Rodens claim that LLD and Greeting are unaligned even more ???.

@Roden: Like, dude, come on. I've seen your play and coming up with a read on such absolute nonsense is just so far out of the range, I think I must be missing something.

All I want is for you to explain the thinking there. At the moment it looks like very much like you pulled it out of your arse to fit a scum agenda. I think strongly that Greeting is town here, but I understand

why

people night have said Greetings play was surface level scummy, so a fake push there looks like where I might have gone as scum.

The more you bluster around and lean on your white knights and try and shade your accusers, instead of just explaining the logic there, the more it just looks like you've been caught with your trousers down with that - but everyone is allowed a off game every now and again, I guess.

How is this the one and only thing that's managed to catch your attention

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain

yet again

to you or anyone else.

Like can you show me where you've argued against the accusation I made? You also claimed to have read the whole game, yet you only have three town reads and one scum read. All based on a couple exchanges that happened 30+ pages ago.

[Roden]

Like can you show me where you've argued against the accusation I made?

Only in the same sense you could show me where you explained why LLD and Greeting are unaligned.

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

just explain this and i'll unvote you

I half said that because of their interactions, and half said that just to see what others thought.

Why would you unvote me for this specific explanation?

I half said that because of their interactions, and half said that just to see what others thought.

will you elaborate

...About what?

can you go into more detail about what you just said

Uhhh...I don't know what else to say.

is this just a failure of communication

roden if i called you sus and organized what do you think that would mean

I don't think it is? I don't know if you expected a more complex answer but there wasn't anything else to my thought process.

Interesting that I have to ISO both of us, and in under two minutes I can find the answer you're looking for while proving your answer doesn't exist.

[Roden]

Interesting that I have to ISO both of us, and in under two minutes I can find the answer you're looking for while proving your answer doesn't exist.

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain yet again to you or anyone else.

It took me

one

minute.

To do what? You still haven't answered my question.

[Roden]

i'm a little weirded out all i got was a "I don't fucking know," same with cephrir but maybe i can see that but i'm not sure how i'm floating in anyone's null space atm i can barely keep my damn mouth shut

i think my ultimate bears opinion is they could be scum but maybe not who i want to go after d1. noraa's list is a little problematic for me if fae's had no controversial takes maybe noraa's has too many i guess? maybe? i dunno somehow there's like 7 scum and they turn it into 3 and that's impressive

They don't look very coordinated as a hydra. I think if

The Three Bears

were scum, their behaviour would be much closer to one another than it is.

Interesting that I have to ISO both of us, and in under two minutes I can find the answer you're looking for while proving your answer doesn't exist.

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain yet again to you or anyone else.

It took me

one

minute.

To do what? You still haven't answered my question.

I have. I'm not going explain again because I have.

At that's the last time we will have that discussion.
Call it scummy. Go on. I dare you.

This is just a scum claim then. You asked me to explain something, so I did. I asked you to explain something, and you said no. Even when I prove you're lying by using your own ISO, you just double down.

VOTE: Val

[Roden]

and you said no.

That's such a misrep. Show me where I said no, Roden.

I said I had, and I wasn't going to into yet

again.

You never did and the "no" is implicit since you refuse to do so. I'm not fighting you on this.

[Roden]

VOTE: Ircher

This should be E-3. I'll deal with Val later.

[Roden]

I feel really confident saying Bears vs STD is TvT. STD defending post 50 isn't alignment indicative, but I see the motivation behind it as town stubbornness. And the Bears have been very townie basically all game, but WRT to the recent argument with STD I think Fae's aggression and logic comes from a town mindset and not scum looking for a "gotcha".

[Roden]

mmmm but like then they wouldnt have made the post

Who wouldn't have made which post?

[Roden]

*Rodan*
if you havent yet, what are your explanations behind your top 3 SRs

Talk to me about that

Ircher-

I haven't liked any of his posts. For the most part my eyes just glaze over when trying to read them, long wall posts segmented by quotes from multiple people just comes off as muddling to me. The shade towards me for defending myself reads as a soft defense for himself for not engaging with people who are scum casing him. A lot of his posts also aren't particularly interesting and feel bland/safe, the only exceptions being the multiple times he tries to shut down town cases.

All I want is for you to explain the thinking there.

This has been asked so many times before, and Roden made it clear he wasn't going to give a straight answer to this. There was no need to ask for the sixteenth time.

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain yet again to you or anyone else.

Where? I looked at your ISO, and it seems to me that it's only Roden's Greeting and LLD read that caught your attention. Sure, that doesn't imply that it's the only thing that caught your attention, but it also doesn't imply that something else also grabbed your attention with regards to Roden. (In 1215, you give a detailed explanation of why you are interested in Roden answering it, but you don't actually mention or hint at there being other reasons you are interested in Roden.)

Yeah Val is scum. Seeing what Mama and Baby bears think.

-- The Pinkinator.

I think your portrayal of the ISO is pretty accurate, but once again like with Roden before, I have trouble jumping straight to the conclusion. That is, the stubbornness could come (and in all honestly, is more likely to come) from stubborn town rather than caught scum that doesn't want to back out. What is scum Val gaining with this approach other than Roden's ire?

This in particular is a really strange post. It's like he's just chastising Val, he never pushes further and instead defends him from the Bears. I'm honestly not even sure what his scum reads are, if anything he's just been consistently contrarian to everyone this game.

Val-

I feel like the problems I have with Val were posted about recently enough that I don't need to recap most of it. However I will add that his recent attempt to discredit the town reads on LLD weirdly coincides with Ircher's attempt to do the same. It makes me feel like scum are frustrated that people are angle-shooting LLD and the Bears as town due to mod interference.

322 is the smoking gun to me, because Val wants to push the idea that an actual ability could've been activated here, but if he was actually concerned I think he would ask the mod if it was real or just a joke. As it is right now, it just looks like an attempt to make people paranoid.

Arcade Pals-

I scum read this slot for different reasons than everyone else. It's a gut read based on Dunn's play, he just doesn't have the town energy I saw from him last time we played. He's felt very half-hearted with everything he does this game, to the point that I can't recall any of his opinions or stances. In comparison to our previous game, where he was so townie that the Doc only had five pages of posts to work with yet still knew to protect Dunn from the NK and succeeded... it feels like night and day here.

[Roden]

Idk, I've been back and forth on Mush, but I think its shown enough nuance and reasoning that would be counter productive if it was scum.

[Roden]

Why not get a claim now so that potential scum don't have as much time to come up with a believable fake claim?

[Roden]

his recent attempt to discredit the town reads on LLD

I'm sorry? Come again?

Look, I understand having been asked to justify your read d, you have to come up with some crap, but at least do me the curtesy of actually reading my posts, rather than glancing at them, please.

I absolutely believe this should be the lim today.

Aren't these posts yours?

Spoiler:

Lady Lambdadelta - null not convinced by thread lock

To be fair, the thread lock wasn't the "mod reaction" I was refering to. It was this one:

Carry/hold/??? onwards/forwards/into the unknowable future

It's possible I have either incorrectly deduced cause and effect there, or I've misunderstood what I am seeing, but for now, that is enough to put LLD in the strong town bucket, until one of those assumptions is proven false.

I still can't understand why, when the issue of LLDs alignment and the interaction with the bears comes up, the focus remains on the fact it was presented as a fake vig, and the fact that the mod locked the thread - something SirCakez specifically stated was not game related - rather than the other mod response.

I could understand if there was an argument being made that it could possibly have still come from scum, perhaps, but for it to have been ignored completely in favour of a discussion on what metagame info might be gleaned from the thread locking instead make me think I must be missing something obvious, here.

i feel like both are unimportant

Unimportant with respect to LLDs alignment, or unimportant in general?

If you mean the later, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. SirCakez says the thread locking was not related to the game state, which strongly implies the other post was.

I don't know if the apparent concensus to straight up ignore it was deliberate, and I'm not understanding due to my inexperience outside the known setup of the newbie queue, but it's fed very strongly into how I am reading LLD.

I'm not sure I understand Cephrir. SirCakez said the locking of the thread was a bit of trolling, presumably to lend a bit of credibility to the idea LLD had legitimately dayvigged the bears. The other post wasn't mentioned, and would not do that. I assume therefore, that was legitimate and intended.

With respect to knowing that it was related to what LLD did, the short answer is that I don't know for sure, and that's what I mean by misunderstanding cause and effect, but if it wasn't, there is a big timing coincidence there.

I think 322 was a mod response to an activated ability that prompts a public mod response, the existence of which potentially provides a clue to one or more players alignment.

You don't?

I at least understand what StD is saying about it potentially not being caused by LLD posting "Seize: X" in the public thread, and that's something I've considered and explained why at least at this stage is an assumption I'm happy making, but im not entirely sure what you are trying to say, Cephrir.

Anyway, do you have anything else to say about the read?

[Roden]

Oh nice, Catboi's in and already towning it up.

@Nora:

I think we should still elim Ircher since he still has a pretty high chance of flipping red, even now he still won't address the reads on him and he isn't scum hunting. If he flips town, I think it's still a good info flip and we won't have people tunneled on a slot that isn't doing all that much.

Also heavily disagree about sending investigative roles to check Ircher. I do agree with the reasoning but we definitely shouldn't call out who the investigative roles target, if scum have a Watcher then they'll easily find town PRs.

@Val:

I'll reply to you on Day 2 (or today if Ircher claims a PR and people get cold feet), since I don't want to distract from the wagon and I don't expect to die tonight.

[Roden]

Oh nice, Catboi's in and already towning it up.

@Nora:

I think we should still elim Ircher since he still has a pretty high chance of flipping red, even now he still won't address the reads on him and he isn't scum hunting. If he flips town, I think it's still a good info flip and we won't have people tunneled on a slot that isn't doing all that much.

Also heavily disagree about sending investigative roles to check Ircher. I do agree with the reasoning but we definitely shouldn't call out who the investigative roles target, if scum have a Watcher then they'll easily find town PRs.

@Val:

I'll reply to you on Day 2 (or today if Ircher claims a PR and people get cold feet), since I don't want to distract from the wagon and I don't expect to die tonight.

You don’t expect to die tonight?
That’s got to be an first for me.
Every single player i’ve seen likes to claim that they are certain they will die, (and of course, they probably don’t) because they are just THAT townie, and practically solved the game. So of course, any competent scum team would make the right shot by shooting there. Who wouldn’t??

Well there are players who want my head, if I got NK'd it would be a waste of a potential mis-elim, or at least that's how I'd see it if I were scum. It usually makes more sense to keep controversial players alive over players who are widely town read.

Though now that I think about it...I could get Vig'd tonight. I hope not, but it's possible I guess.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Val quote

Aren't these posts yours?

Lady Lambdadelta - null not convinced by thread lock

To be fair, the thread lock wasn't the "mod reaction" I was refering to. It was this one:

Carry/hold/??? onwards/forwards/into the unknowable future

It's possible I have either incorrectly deduced cause and effect there, or I've misunderstood what I am seeing, but for now,

that is enough to put LLD in the strong town bucket

, until one of those assumptions is proven false.

Yes. They are. As is this one, which appears in sequence of the ones you quoted, but for some strange reason you seem to have ommited.

how does it relate to LLD's alignment

LLD does something, Mod publically does two things, one of which SirCakez says was a bit of trolling, presumably meaning the other wasn't.

Again, I would understand an argument from people with more experience with the source, or theme games in general, that it could still possibly come from scum, or perhaps I am misunderstanding cause and effect, but my initial thinking is that if you are going to do something that invokes a public response from a mod,

you aren't doing that so openly if you are scum

.

See, I might have brought the idea that Roden might have somehow mistook my posts to mean I was suggesting LLD was scum, if he were literally glancing at them with the most mininimal of attention; although I would still say to only glance at the posts of one of your top 3 scum reads when asked to justify for your reasons for it is scummy in itself, but to omit 1738 from a quote wall from 1550 to 1745, has to be deliberate. Why did you chose to do that, Roden?

Are we seriously not voting this out today?

So, here's where I have to figure out whether you're just not reading or you're purposely trying to move the goal posts.

I never claimed that you scum read LLD, in fact I never once brought up your read on her. I even went back through my ISO to make sure of this, since I thought maybe I had implied it somewhere, but no, there isn't anything there. I didn't quote that post you're referring to because it had nothing to do with our argument, that's all it really comes down to. Your read on LLD is completely unrelated to the fact that you did try to discredit and shut down the angle-shoot town reads on her.

You are free to point out where I brought up your read on LLD though. If you can't, then I want to know why you're accusing me of not reading correctly/honestly when it's pretty clear that I actually am and you actually aren't.

[Roden]

Oh also, VOTE: Andante.

[Roden]

Val has definitely been playing differently but I'm pretty certain that itself is NAI for him. I've played with him three other times in the Newbie queue, I was scum every time but one time we were both scum. He generally plays the same way but very distinctly: a lot of wall posts, a lot of over analysis, a

lot

of nitpicking, and usually he'll have a very passionate tunnel pretty early into the game (though I think it's more obviously genuine when he's town) He replaced in, and it is a large game, so maybe that's why he's not playing like that here. His play is still scummy though and I'd be fine with voting him today instead of Andante.

[Roden]

Dunn voted Grendel, the slot is actually at E-2 right now. I don't want to put them into hammer range since we should get a claim first, so I'll wait to vote until we get a replacement.

[Roden]

Sorry, was dealing with wedding stuff yesterday, I just finished catching up on the game.

Ircher is caught scum for multiple reasons, I don't believe he's FN and I'm pretty sure he wasn't RB'd. Somebody mentioned earlier that Ircher's reads list looked townie, but also noted that he essentially had written it ahead of time, which leads me to believe it was just fabricated as a last ditch effort to save himself. He also

still

isn't scum hunting, unless you count this:

I think Bell scum claimed in the last few pages.

Which is uh, not great.

if your action was roleblocked can you use it tonight? for non consec? im assuming not but worth a check

Nope.

This also feels off. The confident conclusiveness of this answer doesn't add up if the claim is real. The reply is instant, and the only way he could know for sure is if he asked the mod ahead of time, but he doesn't mention that. Very much just feels like a "just trust me bro" response.

Also Val needs to die tonight or tomorrow. He tried to instigate an argument but never responded when I brought the receipts. And then today he's like "oh no where's Roden" as if there isn't an unfinished case against him that he's been ignoring.

Consider my vote spiritually on Ircher, I don't want to put him at E-1 in case he hammers himself to cut off discussion and info exchange. I'm fine to do it when we're ready though.

[Roden]

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

That's not true. I just didn't comment; not everything is worth it at the time. Also, the specifics matter here. You called me out for my initial reaction. Roden is calling me out for providing the standard answer to a question that has a standard answer on this site. That's very different; the former is a good faith engagement even if I disagree. The latter is just incredibly bad faith. You both agree the claim is fake; that's fine, sure; however, the way you reach that conclusion matters, and the way Roden is reaching that conclusion is really iffy compared to yours.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him, only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

[Roden]

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

That's not true. I just didn't comment; not everything is worth it at the time. Also, the specifics matter here. You called me out for my initial reaction. Roden is calling me out for providing the standard answer to a question that has a standard answer on this site. That's very different; the former is a good faith engagement even if I disagree. The latter is just incredibly bad faith. You both agree the claim is fake; that's fine, sure; however, the way you reach that conclusion matters, and the way Roden is reaching that conclusion is really iffy compared to yours.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

Not sure why both of those got quoted.

[Roden]

Anyway the real reason Ircher is scum here is because there is a 100% chance we have a Voyeur and/or a Watcher and there's no way they don't sit on Ircher N1 to catch a Roleblocker. But no one's stepping forward to vouch for Ircher besides I guess Andante, who just claimed VT.

[Roden]

Why would I as town engage in an argument that I'm likely to lose? That's just silly. As both alignments, I am best off choosing my battles wisely.

Why would you argue with someone who has minimal power and voice in the game state over someone who might actually be able to convince people to see things your way?

If you're scum I could see you arguing with me to try to build associatives after your flip, or to get me to put my foot in my mouth so I get speed elim'd next. But like, I see zero benefits to doing this if you're town, because you're not even voting me. Why vote Mush then try to argue with me?

[Roden]

Why are yoo assuming we have a voyeur or watcher? What are your premises that lead to that conclusion?

If anything, the flip of a tracker decreases the chance since role variety is generally important for balancing reasons.

It's a 21 player game, if we had neither our chances of catching scum drop drastically. I've seen normal large games with around ten town PRs so it really isn't out of the question here to have more than one investigation role. I'm pretty confident we have at least one of those roles and that you weren't RB'd. I'm also pretty sure scum have a Ninja but that's a less helpful statement I guess.

[Roden]

Why would you argue with someone who has minimal power and voice in the game state over someone who might actually be able to convince people to see things your way?

I disagree heavily with your fundamental assumption. You might not be a MUSH or Lambdadelta, but you certainly are loud and have quite some control over the game state, even if it doesn't end well. Also, you already out your foot in your mouth by TMI'ing there is a watcher.

Thanks, but I know I was pretty low impact Day 1. I just occasionally say the right thing.

What made you focus on Watcher when I also mentioned Voyeur?

[Roden]

A watcher would /never/ target me because I would /never/ be killed night 1. A watcher gains much more from watching whoever is killed than they would by watching me. Even if we assume there is a watcher, your conclusions don't follow. A voyeur perhaps would target me, but there is no solid indicator a voyeur exists.

pedit: Laziness.

No reason to target you when everyone expected you to get RB'd? You really think town doesn't try to catch the Roleblocker?

[Roden]

Roden, what do you get out of engaging with a scum Ircher focused on cheap shots and tearing down strong town voices before they can townblock and crush scum? Why do you do that as town, I mean? It seems important to clarify, given this would be Grade A theater.

Because Ircher's content is a lot more readable when he's talking to me, most of his posts are pretty reserved and forgettable otherwise. Seeing who reacts to him, and how, is important, and seeing who he attacks when he let's his guard down is even more important.

[Roden]

Read twie. The thing that is most sticking out to me is his pivot from seemingly wanting ircher to die d1 to defending him d2. What's with that?

His fixation on role blocks becomes interesting in light of tet's claim to be roleblocked

Spoiler: TWIE Roleblock posts

honestly unless theres no one else to lim should have ircher try again on either day 3 or 4 and make scum spend role blocks on him if theyre that concerned with him not being confirmed

if your action was roleblocked can you use it tonight? for non consec? im assuming not but worth a check

okay but the point is you say choose 1 of night 3 or 4 to use your ability and then scum have to RB him twice if they are committing to preventing a confirm

which is a pretty big commitment when a kill has already been prevented

but the high roll of tying up 2 scum rbs is pretty nice still

especially since the prs of this game appear to be x shot or gated

I hadn't noticed that until you mentioned it, but yeah a large section of his posts is just dedicated to trying to make a convincing case to save Ircher. Or more accurately, the entirety of his Day 2 posts are about Ircher.

[Roden]

thewayitends is probably scum simply because in a game that seems fixated on running up lurkers his name has not come up which suggests scum are more interested in pushing other targets

this a hot take

scum are only pushing lurkers

makes lurker push

A+ self callout

Reading this post again while looking through his ISO, and I think he might have slipped that he has an informed perspective? Catboi never said scum were pushing lurkers, he made a comment about the game state focusing on that.

[Roden]

i think u stretchin there but idk if its a stretch worth makin or not

A bit yeah, the simple and reasonable answer could just be that he just misinterpreted Catboi's post. However, seeing this post:

can this really dumb conversation end so we can get back to talking about me

Lead into this post:

thewayitends is probably scum simply because in a game that seems fixated on running up lurkers his name has not come up which suggests scum are more interested in pushing other targets

this a hot take

scum are only pushing lurkers

makes lurker push

A+ self callout

Is just odd. It doesn't add up to me that he would want attention and then get hyper defensive when he got it.

VOTE: TheWayItEnds

[Roden]

i'm going to be a stick in the mud, ircher was going down like a sinking ship the only person who didn't think ircher was going down was andante for some reason

it was just a matter of whether ircher was town or scum. i actually thought he was going to flip town at the end of the day. the fact that he flipped scum changes a few things. it means people defending him probably were town unaware he was going to flip red (andante, Twie) and that some people who were heavily trying to drag him down were bussing him (roden).

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him, only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

what if ircher ignored roden because they're scumbuddies.

Anyway the real reason Ircher is scum here is because there is a 100% chance we have a Voyeur and/or a Watcher and there's no way they don't sit on Ircher N1 to catch a Roleblocker. But no one's stepping forward to vouch for Ircher besides I guess Andante, who just claimed VT.

This is a really weird reason to sr ircher

Gonna ignore the first two paragraphs because you're essentially saying you'd scum read me regardless of what Ircher flipped. If Ircher is scum I'm bussing, if he's town then I'm pushing a mis-elim. The proof of your confbias is in the very next thing you say.

You're claiming Ircher ignored me because we're scum buddies. But the point I make in the post you quoted is that he

wasn't

ignoring me, in fact he was going out of his way to engage with me more than almost everyone else in the game. That's why Mush suggested that it could be theatre in the first place.

That last bit wasn't why I scum read Ircher, I was giving a mechanical reason for why Ircher was caught scum. I'm not sure why you'd even bring that post up.

[Roden]

if ircher flipped town i would have thought you were town from it

I don't buy that. You scum read me for getting ignored by Ircher even though that was proven to not have happened, and you haven't reversed your read on me or explained how it changes your read after it got pointed out. This is a problem, because I still think you're town but your read looks fake.

Please open your mouth wider std he needs to put more words in it

Ceph, come on.

[Roden]

If I shout it louder will it get through your thick skull

IF X, THEN Y vs JUST X AND Y

This is the post that made me town bin you, it feels like a very genuine reaction and I don't think scum would have the foresight to fake frustration here. Maybe it's a dumb reason to town read you, but it's something that makes sense to me.

i know roden's good at scum and he's good at the game, he's not going to be bad town

Besides the confbias tunnel, this is the only other post that gives me pause. Scum reading someone for playing poorly is just, bad. And doesn't even make sense if you think I'm good scum, because I would have to be good at faking town as well.

[Roden]

i actually think roden's interactions with ircher were theatre/distancing

Wait, STD you already said here that you thought it was theatre. What made you suggest Ircher was ignoring me?

Furthermore why does a town!Ircher flip clear me?

[Roden]

k i give up

tet's line implies that he investigated the bears. this much is obvious. if you cannot follow me this far then like, fuck off.

so, why did tet post that "you'll know why" the bears should be side eyed when we see his flip. and yes, i know he addressed this to mush, but i believe that's just because they were hardtowning each other and he trusted it.

OBVIOUSLY, it's because THERE IS SOMETHING SUSPICIOUS ABOUT THEIR FLAVOR. otherwise, he wouldn't have said this.

therefore, if they CLAIM FLAVOR THAT ISN'T SUSPICIOUS, they are probably scum.

thanks for completely not fucking helping @ literally everyone.

I'm still catching up but doesn't this actually clear the Bears? If the Bears were scum and Tet was softing that they're suspicious, wouldn't it make more sense to keep Tet alive and just Roleblock them so their ability doesn't get confirmed? If the Bears are town (which I still strongly believe), then killing Tet makes a lot more sense to make it look like a fear kill. I think Tet would've claimed their results if they thought the flavor was conclusively scummy.

[Roden]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Ircher

VOTE: Ircher

This should be E-3. I'll deal with Val later.

Sorry, was dealing with wedding stuff yesterday, I just finished catching up on the game.

Ircher is caught scum for multiple reasons, I don't believe he's FN and I'm pretty sure he wasn't RB'd. Somebody mentioned earlier that Ircher's reads list looked townie, but also noted that he essentially had written it ahead of time, which leads me to believe it was just fabricated as a last ditch effort to save himself. He also

still

isn't scum hunting, unless you count this:

I think Bell scum claimed in the last few pages.

Which is uh, not great.

if your action was roleblocked can you use it tonight? for non consec? im assuming not but worth a check

Nope.

This also feels off. The confident conclusiveness of this answer doesn't add up if the claim is real. The reply is instant, and the only way he could know for sure is if he asked the mod ahead of time, but he doesn't mention that. Very much just feels like a "just trust me bro" response.

Also Val needs to die tonight or tomorrow. He tried to instigate an argument but never responded when I brought the receipts. And then today he's like "oh no where's Roden" as if there isn't an unfinished case against him that he's been ignoring.

Consider my vote spiritually on Ircher, I don't want to put him at E-1 in case he hammers himself to cut off discussion and info exchange. I'm fine to do it when we're ready though.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

That's not true. I just didn't comment; not everything is worth it at the time. Also, the specifics matter here. You called me out for my initial reaction. Roden is calling me out for providing the standard answer to a question that has a standard answer on this site. That's very different; the former is a good faith engagement even if I disagree. The latter is just incredibly bad faith. You both agree the claim is fake; that's fine, sure; however, the way you reach that conclusion matters, and the way Roden is reaching that conclusion is really iffy compared to yours.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him, only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

Anyway the real reason Ircher is scum here is because there is a 100% chance we have a Voyeur and/or a Watcher and there's no way they don't sit on Ircher N1 to catch a Roleblocker. But no one's stepping forward to vouch for Ircher besides I guess Andante, who just claimed VT.

Hot take:

let's actually kill scum today. The CORRECT play today is to KILL roden.

Here's why:

Here's roden's first "scum" ircher when there was multiple people already looking that way, but no case, no reasons why.
Then there's the naked vote. That naked vote is placed in spot 6/11. There's no "real" reason, just a naked vote.
Now Roden switches to Val.
1560 again naked jumps onto the wagon for no real reason for E-3
No where around for the last minute switcharoooo.

Now open up to D2:

All of a sudden is convinced that Ircher is lying. Full on bussing. knowing the partner is going down. The other part of the line "someone mentioned that the posts looked fabricated".
The last two posts are distancing between ircer & roden.

Up until the naked vote there was BARELY any mention re:ircher until the naked 6/11 vote & the E-3 vote then the start of D2.

So please for the sake of catching an actual scum. please vote roden

thank you kindly

for my sanity

Why are both you and STD ignoring the fact that Ircher and I went at each other D1 and D2? And that I pretty heavily softed how I knew that Ircher hadn't been Roleblocked?

If we cut the day short again because y'all want to flash elim yet another townie then town kinda deserves to lose. The day literally just started. NGL my overall opinion on STD is going to heavily change if I'm right and he is town because his pointless stubbornness is making him throw this game and just feels like bullying at this point. His absolute refusal to read me with any nuance in every single game just feels targeted at this point.

Anyway I'm Polaris. This is an important enough entity that it could be CC'd if I'm lying, so go nuts trying to figure out it's a real claim or not I guess. I'm not posting anymore tonight because this game keeps managing to kill my mood every time I try to effort. But if I'm still alive in the morning I'll give some reads.

[Roden]

Oh I will say that I didn't vote Grendel because I thought that wagon was bad and only scum benefit from voting am empty slot. Like the whole angle shooty theory that the slot was scum because they replaced out twice is bad meta, the game was obviously just too overwhelming to keep up with.

[Roden]

Why are both you and STD ignoring the fact that Ircher and I went at each other D1 and D2?

And that I pretty heavily softed how I knew that Ircher hadn't been Roleblocked?

What are you claiming here?

If you actually read my posts, you'd be able to figure that out. Why are you still blindly sheeping wagons after we already had two mis-elims?

Why are both you and STD ignoring the fact that Ircher and I went at each other D1 and D2?

And that I pretty heavily softed how I knew that Ircher hadn't been Roleblocked?

What are you claiming here?

I'm interested in voting Roden.

I remember not liking them early, and then mostly forgetting about what they've done later.

Yeah it shows.

[Roden]

Did you target Tet last night?

I'm picking up what you are putting down but don't understand this part

I don't have any info worth sharing or that would be helpful.

Oh Polaris. That’s like the entity of good or something in Control.
Like the major force of good that fights against the Hiss that possesses the objects of power and turns them evil.

NGL, I have no experience with the flavor, so I thought it was a magic Polaroid camera (because of the name and because it looks like a camera shutter) when I first got my role PM lol. I figured my flavor claim would be meh until I looked it up on the wiki and found out she was actually a fairly important character. I think everyone pretty much figures that the Hiss are the evil team in this set up, so there's no reason to believe Polaris wouldn't be in the game.

Sorry you feel that way roden

At this point, you're either terrible at reading emotions or you're scum.

You mean ircher basically had your name in majority of his posts an ISO + ctrl + f will deliver a result of "42" times between his posts/others & posts that were made by you.

However when you are ISO. Granted when you do find yours it comes out to be 77, but here are any direct posts with ircher

Spoiler:

Oof 20 pages in a day.

Bears, LLD, Cephrir, Mastina, Norwe, Tet are all most likely town.

Greeting, Galron, STD, Ircher, Mush contains at least a few scum. My vote stopped being RVS btw.

Bears, LLD, Cephrir, Mastina, Norwe, Tet are all most likely town.

Greeting, Galron, STD, Ircher, Mush contains at least a few scum. My vote stopped being RVS btw.

this read list sucks it leaves a lot to be desired

the phrase "contains a few scum" feels fake

your vote for greeting is weird it comes with no explanation but you stopped being RVS (tbf you explain it later, but i hate it too so...)

you stick Ircher on there but don't want to vote him because you want to look like you're in agreement with the consensus but are waiting until later to actually be like "i guess we'll go ircher" it's making me think ircher might be town and you're scum

Roden, why do you think Greeting is the best vote for today?

I hate the RVS analysis posts. They made my eyes glaze over and it just read as information-over-analysis to me. It's typically a town tell to me, but there's a thin line between actually town telling and just LAMIST serious analysis posts.

this feels fake as hell i don't know how to describe it you're like a scummy cat waving your paw around

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

this is weird as heck, why do you think greeting is unaligned with LLD

Yeah I know my reads list sucks, once we cut the player list in half and we're more than 48 hours into the game it'll probably look better.

"Contains a few scum" isn't a fake statement. My reads aren't strong but I feel like my read rate early in the game is usually 50/50, so I feel that some of my scum reads are probably correct.

STD what kind of low level scum do you think I am that I would telegraph an Ircher miselim like that? If I was scum and he was town I'd just vote him, it really wouldn't be hard to blend in with a wagon that would have twelve people on it.

Idk why you think my explanation of the Greeting vote is fake. I think your reaction is fake if anything lol.

I don't think LLD and Greeting are aligned because I town read one and scum read the other.

greeting just seems so townie it looks like you're scum who can't see that and are doubling down on a bad read

If I'm scum the read wouldn't be bad lol, it would just be wrong. Weird that you'd apply town logic to me if you're scum reading me.

my only hesitation is that i always scumread you

To be fair I think I've been scum almost every time we've played together.

VOTE: Ircher

@STD and Ceph:

What do you think about Ircher vs Meg?

I can't really help you with your death tunnel at this point then.

I didn't think your initial posts and arguments were too scummy. As I mentioned before, I've seen plenty of stubborn town players that stick to their guns even when they are wrong. However, the continued focus on defending and arguing back in place of forming reads (that are not based entirely in OMGUS) strikes me as a tactic scum adopts. Not only is it distracting to the rest of the thread, it makes you look busy while in reality, you are just treading the same old ground again and again.

This doesn't make any sense. Am I not supposed to defend myself when I'm being accused? And at what point am I "treading the same ground again and again" when I'm not even the one bringing up those posts? You're acting like I'm going around picking fights, yet Ceph took a pot shot at me over a read Mastina made earlier and reignited our shit fight, and Val is scum reading me over a post I made almost a week ago while apparently have zero opinions on anything else that's happened even though he claimed to read the entire thread.

Also claiming OMGUS is lazy and not even factual because I town read two out of the three loudest voices who claim I'm scum. I've already gone through why Ceph and STD's cases on me are meh, but I think tonally they're both town and that their reactions to some of my posts feel genuine. My Mush scum read is the only one you could call OMGUS but even that's a stretch because Mush just keeps spamming "you're scum lol" and ignores me when I tell it to explain it's read. "LOL you're just scum lol" isn't a case and I'm not the only one it's doing that to either.

VOTE: Ircher

This should be E-3. I'll deal with Val later.

*Rodan*
if you havent yet, what are your explanations behind your top 3 SRs

Talk to me about that

Ircher-

I haven't liked any of his posts. For the most part my eyes just glaze over when trying to read them, long wall posts segmented by quotes from multiple people just comes off as muddling to me. The shade towards me for defending myself reads as a soft defense for himself for not engaging with people who are scum casing him. A lot of his posts also aren't particularly interesting and feel bland/safe, the only exceptions being the multiple times he tries to shut down town cases.

All I want is for you to explain the thinking there.

This has been asked so many times before, and Roden made it clear he wasn't going to give a straight answer to this. There was no need to ask for the sixteenth time.

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain yet again to you or anyone else.

Where? I looked at your ISO, and it seems to me that it's only Roden's Greeting and LLD read that caught your attention. Sure, that doesn't imply that it's the only thing that caught your attention, but it also doesn't imply that something else also grabbed your attention with regards to Roden. (In 1215, you give a detailed explanation of why you are interested in Roden answering it, but you don't actually mention or hint at there being other reasons you are interested in Roden.)

Yeah Val is scum. Seeing what Mama and Baby bears think.

-- The Pinkinator.

I think your portrayal of the ISO is pretty accurate, but once again like with Roden before, I have trouble jumping straight to the conclusion. That is, the stubbornness could come (and in all honestly, is more likely to come) from stubborn town rather than caught scum that doesn't want to back out. What is scum Val gaining with this approach other than Roden's ire?

This in particular is a really strange post. It's like he's just chastising Val, he never pushes further and instead defends him from the Bears. I'm honestly not even sure what his scum reads are, if anything he's just been consistently contrarian to everyone this game.

Val-

I feel like the problems I have with Val were posted about recently enough that I don't need to recap most of it. However I will add that his recent attempt to discredit the town reads on LLD weirdly coincides with Ircher's attempt to do the same. It makes me feel like scum are frustrated that people are angle-shooting LLD and the Bears as town due to mod interference.

322 is the smoking gun to me, because Val wants to push the idea that an actual ability could've been activated here, but if he was actually concerned I think he would ask the mod if it was real or just a joke. As it is right now, it just looks like an attempt to make people paranoid.

Arcade Pals-

I scum read this slot for different reasons than everyone else. It's a gut read based on Dunn's play, he just doesn't have the town energy I saw from him last time we played. He's felt very half-hearted with everything he does this game, to the point that I can't recall any of his opinions or stances. In comparison to our previous game, where he was so townie that the Doc only had five pages of posts to work with yet still knew to protect Dunn from the NK and succeeded... it feels like night and day here.

Oh nice, Catboi's in and already towning it up.

@Nora:

I think we should still elim Ircher since he still has a pretty high chance of flipping red, even now he still won't address the reads on him and he isn't scum hunting. If he flips town, I think it's still a good info flip and we won't have people tunneled on a slot that isn't doing all that much.

Also heavily disagree about sending investigative roles to check Ircher. I do agree with the reasoning but we definitely shouldn't call out who the investigative roles target, if scum have a Watcher then they'll easily find town PRs.

@Val:

I'll reply to you on Day 2 (or today if Ircher claims a PR and people get cold feet), since I don't want to distract from the wagon and I don't expect to die tonight.

Sorry, was dealing with wedding stuff yesterday, I just finished catching up on the game.

Ircher is caught scum for multiple reasons, I don't believe he's FN and I'm pretty sure he wasn't RB'd. Somebody mentioned earlier that Ircher's reads list looked townie, but also noted that he essentially had written it ahead of time, which leads me to believe it was just fabricated as a last ditch effort to save himself. He also

still

isn't scum hunting, unless you count this:

I think Bell scum claimed in the last few pages.

Which is uh, not great.

if your action was roleblocked can you use it tonight? for non consec? im assuming not but worth a check

Nope.

This also feels off. The confident conclusiveness of this answer doesn't add up if the claim is real. The reply is instant, and the only way he could know for sure is if he asked the mod ahead of time, but he doesn't mention that. Very much just feels like a "just trust me bro" response.

Also Val needs to die tonight or tomorrow. He tried to instigate an argument but never responded when I brought the receipts. And then today he's like "oh no where's Roden" as if there isn't an unfinished case against him that he's been ignoring.

Consider my vote spiritually on Ircher, I don't want to put him at E-1 in case he hammers himself to cut off discussion and info exchange. I'm fine to do it when we're ready though.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

That's not true. I just didn't comment; not everything is worth it at the time. Also, the specifics matter here. You called me out for my initial reaction. Roden is calling me out for providing the standard answer to a question that has a standard answer on this site. That's very different; the former is a good faith engagement even if I disagree. The latter is just incredibly bad faith. You both agree the claim is fake; that's fine, sure; however, the way you reach that conclusion matters, and the way Roden is reaching that conclusion is really iffy compared to yours.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him, only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

Anyway the real reason Ircher is scum here is because there is a 100% chance we have a Voyeur and/or a Watcher and there's no way they don't sit on Ircher N1 to catch a Roleblocker. But no one's stepping forward to vouch for Ircher besides I guess Andante, who just claimed VT.

Why would I as town engage in an argument that I'm likely to lose? That's just silly. As both alignments, I am best off choosing my battles wisely.

Why would you argue with someone who has minimal power and voice in the game state over someone who might actually be able to convince people to see things your way?

If you're scum I could see you arguing with me to try to build associatives after your flip, or to get me to put my foot in my mouth so I get speed elim'd next. But like, I see zero benefits to doing this if you're town, because you're not even voting me. Why vote Mush then try to argue with me?

Why are yoo assuming we have a voyeur or watcher? What are your premises that lead to that conclusion?

If anything, the flip of a tracker decreases the chance since role variety is generally important for balancing reasons.

It's a 21 player game, if we had neither our chances of catching scum drop drastically. I've seen normal large games with around ten town PRs so it really isn't out of the question here to have more than one investigation role. I'm pretty confident we have at least one of those roles and that you weren't RB'd. I'm also pretty sure scum have a Ninja but that's a less helpful statement I guess.

Why would you argue with someone who has minimal power and voice in the game state over someone who might actually be able to convince people to see things your way?

I disagree heavily with your fundamental assumption. You might not be a MUSH or Lambdadelta, but you certainly are loud and have quite some control over the game state, even if it doesn't end well. Also, you already out your foot in your mouth by TMI'ing there is a watcher.

Thanks, but I know I was pretty low impact Day 1. I just occasionally say the right thing.

What made you focus on Watcher when I also mentioned Voyeur?

A watcher would /never/ target me because I would /never/ be killed night 1. A watcher gains much more from watching whoever is killed than they would by watching me. Even if we assume there is a watcher, your conclusions don't follow. A voyeur perhaps would target me, but there is no solid indicator a voyeur exists.

pedit: Laziness.

No reason to target you when everyone expected you to get RB'd? You really think town doesn't try to catch the Roleblocker?

Roden, what do you get out of engaging with a scum Ircher focused on cheap shots and tearing down strong town voices before they can townblock and crush scum? Why do you do that as town, I mean? It seems important to clarify, given this would be Grade A theater.

Because Ircher's content is a lot more readable when he's talking to me, most of his posts are pretty reserved and forgettable otherwise. Seeing who reacts to him, and how, is important, and seeing who he attacks when he let's his guard down is even more important.

sorry bro not convinced.

Imagine proving yourself wrong and having to move the goal posts by saying "well you didn't interact with him enough" lmao. You literally did not play the game the entire first day, and your interactions with Ircher are minimal to non-existent. By your logic, you're confscum.

Actually going through your ISO the only time you really interact with him is to defend me? Like I'm not even sure what you're doing here because you're using the same posts to now scum read me.

[Roden]

Oh nice, Catboi's in and already towning it up.

@Nora:

I think we should still elim Ircher since he still has a pretty high chance of flipping red, even now he still won't address the reads on him and he isn't scum hunting. If he flips town, I think it's still a good info flip and we won't have people tunneled on a slot that isn't doing all that much.

Also heavily disagree about sending investigative roles to check Ircher. I do agree with the reasoning but we definitely shouldn't call out who the investigative roles target, if scum have a Watcher then they'll easily find town PRs.

@Val:

I'll reply to you on Day 2 (or today if Ircher claims a PR and people get cold feet), since I don't want to distract from the wagon and I don't expect to die tonight

.

This post is also bugging the shit out of me

it's almost like he knew that Ircher was gonna fake claim.

Mala have you legitimately never seen a townie predict a fake claim ever in your entire life? This can't be a real accusation.

[Roden]

At this point, you're either terrible at reading emotions or you're scum.

you can spit vitriol at me all you want

it doesn't change the fact i scum read you for things that other people are scumreading you for and yet you wanna target me for some reason

so again i'm sorry you feel that way but it doesn't change the fact that i think you could be scum. it's a game of mafia, people get accused of being scum that's how it goes

Ok this is just blatantly false and I think you caught yourself out with this post. This reverse uno shit with "you wanna target me for some reason" is obvious AtE and is actual gaslighting. You're trying to make me question my sanity and make me look unreasonable. You're discounting the fact that you've been attacking me since the start of the game and nitpicking damn near everything I say, even abandoning the Ircher wagon once it picked up steam at the beginning of Day 1 to try to wagon me instead. No one else has done this, and anyone who has scum read me has at least tried to actually read me with nuance. Everything you've said about me though has had zero nuance and has been extremely uncharitable every single time.

I also said that in town games, so we already know that's NAI. What else?

where have you said that as town

I also said that in town games, so we already know that's NAI. What else?

where have you said that as town

If I hunt through my town games to quote every instance of this, would it actually change your mind or would I be wasting my time?

i just want one

i don't think i'm asking for a lot here

i just want one

i don't think i'm asking for a lot here

Honestly LQ why are you scum reading me at all when you've recently seen two of my scum games in depth? You should know this isn't it from my opening posts alone.

Me vs scum shit pushing me after they got caught.

Can't quote from Scarlet Witch but you can just see my ISO there. I die Day 1 to a bunch of townies shit casing me and calling me guaranteed scum based on vibes. I also catch scum but I get called scummy and told my read is wrong, said scum read proceeds to endgame town and win.

Same with Chrono Trigger since it's also locked. Day 1 is rough again and I pretty thoroughly explain my meta to Noraa. She's been defending me so much this game exactly because of that game.

What does that mean he failed the vibe check?

It means his vibes this game are terrible. Pretty much every time I've faced scum!Roden he's pinged me a certain way, and his comment about Enchant not pushing his reads hit that note.

...Except he didn't push his reads, and he got voted out for it. Do you actually think giving up and accepting his mis-elim was the optimal play here? Because the reason he got voted was exactly because of that. He was focused more on teasing quick hammers than actually scum hunting.

Also I'm just taking this stance from you as that you're either scum fake vibe checking me, or you're town and admitting that you don't actually know how to read me at all. I'm not nearly this aggressive and active as scum, and I would never try to inject life into a dead game. I also wouldn't ever try to give Enchant a chance to save himself by giving him as many outs as I did.

You're free to show examples comparing my actions this game to past scum games though.

VOTE: Roden

you failed the vibe check

But I do think kyouko hasn’t made much of a splash and might be scum as a result if enchant is town.

?

they can both be scum

Then why are you voting me on vibes and not Kyouko when you scum read her through meta?

Can anyone explain why Moz was the kill here? I don't see a crumb in his ISO, I don't think he made any serious reads, and I don't think he was globally TR'd even.

No idea tbh. Which is probably the point, it's a low info kill in a low info game. Scum probably just got lucky with Mozamis being a PR.

This game was extra fun because I had nearly the entire player list on my ass for most of the game, with three townies Gamma Galron and Penguin hard tunneling me. I still got fear killed by scum though.

I don't know why scum didn't kill Roden but he's still locktown.

WIFOM + I've fake softed a role D1 before. Alternatively, scum has a Rolecop or something else that can check for specific roles, and they decided checking me first was a good idea.

what if scum killed sb9 to let scumbuddy roden off the hook

or is that too paranoid

Off the hook how? I was gonna push sb9 next.

i mean he was gonna try to get you to claim today

now you don't have to

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

"Don't have to" lol I was never going to. He literally could not force me to claim. If I'm not at E-1, I don't have to claim, and he certainly wasn't gonna make that kind of push considering T3 was his only scum read and he did nothing to try to get him elim'd.

StD you're really not doing a lot to convince me you're town anymore because you already know my scum thought process. This isn't it, and your shade attempts on me don't look good.

Probably don't need to go into detail with this one.

Do you need more?

This was the only time you even attempted to engage with me on how I could be town, and even then it just turned into a thinly veiled gotcha attempt. It felt like you weren't actually expecting me to bring receipts, and you never responded or try to engage with me further on this. Why did you ask me to provide games if you were just going to completely disregard them? This is exactly what I mean when I say you aren't trying to engage with me honestly or in good faith.

Further examples:

if ircher flipped town i would have thought you were town from it

You claim this but earlier you'd said the complete opposite.

Bears, LLD, Cephrir, Mastina, Norwe, Tet are all most likely town.

Greeting, Galron, STD, Ircher, Mush contains at least a few scum. My vote stopped being RVS btw.

this read list sucks it leaves a lot to be desired

the phrase "contains a few scum" feels fake

your vote for greeting is weird it comes with no explanation but you stopped being RVS (tbf you explain it later, but i hate it too so...)

you stick Ircher on there but don't want to vote him because you want to look like you're in agreement with the consensus but are waiting until later to actually be like "i guess we'll go ircher" it's making me think ircher might be town and you're scum

Like you're just straight up caught in a lie here.

i'm going to be a stick in the mud, ircher was going down like a sinking ship the only person who didn't think ircher was going down was andante for some reason

it was just a matter of whether ircher was town or scum. i actually thought he was going to flip town at the end of the day. the fact that he flipped scum changes a few things. it means people defending him probably were town unaware he was going to flip red (andante, Twie) and that some people who were heavily trying to drag him down were bussing him (roden).

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him, only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

what if ircher ignored roden because they're scumbuddies.

Anyway the real reason Ircher is scum here is because there is a 100% chance we have a Voyeur and/or a Watcher and there's no way they don't sit on Ircher N1 to catch a Roleblocker. But no one's stepping forward to vouch for Ircher besides I guess Andante, who just claimed VT.

This is a really weird reason to sr ircher

I would be more likely to say its theater if it was just a day 2 thing but they've been trading jabs both days.

There's also this exchange where you kept trying to argue Ircher and I were ignoring each other until we did some scum theatre, but even Tet steps in and says that's incorrect. You ignore them though and continue to attack me with the same case. Tet dies immediately afterward and their voice goes unheard.

Like throughout this entire game you attack me and ignore any and all evidence that points to me being town so you can frame the narrative to make me look scummy. And all the while you keep threatening to vote me out while pushing else where, and supporting town mis-elims while defending the Ircher slot. You shaded me for scum reading him but not yet voting him at game start, and then you shaded me for scum casing him and trying to get people to vote him. You've gone out of your way to put me down whenever you can and then used Ceph's loyalty to you to back you up and fight your battles for you whenever I pushed you into a corner.

When I say I town read you solely for your tone, I really do mean that. Everything else you've done has been scummy and at this point I think my earlier read of you was just wrong. You've been coasting on the fact that I've town read you knowing that I won't hit back at you so that you could say whatever you wanted without consequences, but you've just made too many mistakes and uncharitable takes that I just don't think you're town anymore.

VOTE: STD

[Roden]

Can we fucking lose the phrase "bring receipts" yet?

I don’t even know what that means.

It just means evidence or proof.

Galron choosing to play word police is very ???

[Roden]

If everyone is just going to ignore the hard proof that STD got caught lying multiple times and blankly call me scum, then this town really is doomed.

[Roden]

Do you remember when I kept casing roden

Any particular reason you're not addressing any of my points and instead saying "but remember my case from three weeks ago?"

[Roden]

Roden is ignoring me.
That bothers me.
A lot.

You're literally just making noise. Plus I did acknowledge you anyway

[Roden]

Do you remember when I kept casing roden

Any particular reason you're not addressing any of my points and instead saying "but remember my case from three weeks ago?"

Because I was talking to norwee

Because I just got off work and am chilling in front of the TV and I just took some weed cuz I'm relaxing and to case you now would kill that chill vibe

Then you can answer tomorrow after my green flip.

[Roden]

I'm glad you've correctly interpreted me and somehow don't find that weird, scummy or suspicious.

That's because I just don't think that. I'm pretty sure you're town.

[Roden]

Usually when someone wants you dead suddenly and they have zero context or whatever and are claiming they're sheeping, you don't focus on the guy pushing you but the guy who is obviously scum tagging along opportunistically.
But somehow, you're not doing that.

Are you

Are you seriously trying to say it's scummy that I haven't OMGUS'd everyone who votes me

[Roden]

Is this the fucking Twilight Zone

[Roden]

Not at all, I was just pressuring him and volunteering to kill him in place of Catboi who seems sad.

Catboi is likely town, but I'd like for him to explain his progression on me.

[Roden]

if anyone wants me to say anything more than "i disagree with everything presented here" to roden's case on me let me know!

I do because you got caught lying multiple times and you're now trying to brush it under the rug and ignore it.

[Roden]

if anyone wants me to say anything more than "i disagree with everything presented here" to roden's case on me let me know!

Grendel and thewayitends, pressure consistent throughout the day. barely any counter wagons. basically just get flashwagoned.
ircher: ten different wagons get brought up. lots of resistance
Dunn: wall cases on five different people, ten counter wagons

-noraa

You put into words what I've been thinking but couldn't figure out how to say.

Idk the vote count but I'll vote Dunn if he isn't at E-1.

[Roden]

can you enumerate all the lies i've told

Idk if you know this but I made a post a post that does what you're asking for.

i see one in your post and it's because i changed my mind between post 560 and post 3172 because new information came to light

You mean like Ircher's red flip? Lol. You kept saying even after he flipped that you expected him to be town.

i don't understand how you can't be bussing both days for your other "lie" i told

like? just because tet doesn't think it's scum theatre doesn't mean that it's not?

You're doing that thing again where you're moving the goal posts instead of just admitting you're wrong. You went from "you ignored each other" to "well you ignored each other at first and then bussed him at the last second" to "idk why you can't be bussing him both days". Like you're blatantly just trying to fit the pieces together to frame my actions as scummy. I'm scum if I didn't bus and I'm scum if I did. I'm scum if Ircher flips green and I'm scum if he flips red. You aren't trying to read me.

STD you realize saying "just because Tet said so doesn't mean they were correct" also applies to you, right? You can't come up with a solid consistent reason for why I'm scum and it's gotten to the point where you're essentially just saying "just trust me" as if that's supposed to mean anything. Why are you more trustworthy than conftown who literally gave you evidence that you ignored?

Furthermore, both NK targets town read me and defended me, and also scum read you. Why do you think that I kill them but leave you alive? Why do I kill the people on my side and leave the people who are against me alive? Because that's not even WIFOM, that would just be objectively bad play.

[Roden]

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him, only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

does ircher ignore you at the beginning of day 2 or not

you're the one who accused him of ignoring you, so why am i suddenly the one who's "caught" saying he was ignoring you

???

I'm literally referring to myself there

Who the hell do you think I'm talking about?

[Roden]

if you're town i want to shake you

you signed up for a mafia game

you get scumread in mafia games

it happens

i apologized twice for how you're feeling because i'm not intending to make you feel bad

i like gnosia and think your raqio avatar is neat

but that's the way it is

nowhere am i making you question your sanity that's absurd

and if you're scum miss me with that shit

I don't give a shit that I'm getting scum read, how do you not understand this?? I've explained so many fucking times what my issue with your scum case on me is. I've gone into the exact details why I have problems with your case specifically. You've brushed me off at every single turn and quite literally wasted my time making me dig up games and examples from months ago just for you to disregard them. Every time I try to present anything to you your only response is "ok but you're still scum", no one else has done this. Literally every other person who's scum read me actually gave a reason that wasn't "just trust me" or a theory. Even Ceph has had moments of reconsideration despite our back and forths, or maybe because of them.

You're doing that thing again where you're moving the goal posts instead of just admitting you're wrong.

like you've never done this in this game mr. "they're not aligned oops takesybacksy"

So why are you allowed to reconsider your reads but I'm not?

You're doing that thing again where you're moving the goal posts instead of just admitting you're wrong. You went from "you ignored each other" to "well you ignored each other at first and then bussed him at the last second" to "idk why you can't be bussing him both days". Like you're blatantly just trying to fit the pieces together to frame my actions as scummy. I'm scum if I didn't bus and I'm scum if I did. I'm scum if Ircher flips green and I'm scum if he flips red. You aren't trying to read me.

nah man if ircher flipped green i would have town read you it's a fact whether you can grasp that or not is up to you

that's where i was at at the end of the day

people can be fluid with their thinking dude

Again, why are you allowed to walk that back without even mentioning that you had, especially since it's a pretty massive read change, but I get hard scum read for clarifying a scum read? Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

[Roden]

that's the point

you say ircher is ignoring you

i also say ircher is ignoring you

There's also this exchange where you kept trying to argue Ircher and I were ignoring each other

I'M THE ONE IRCHER WHO THOUGHT WAS EASY TO OUT ARGUE

ME

I CANNOT MAKE THIS ANY MORE CLEAR

[Roden]

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

That's not true. I just didn't comment; not everything is worth it at the time. Also, the specifics matter here. You called me out for my initial reaction. Roden is calling me out for providing the standard answer to a question that has a standard answer on this site. That's very different; the former is a good faith engagement even if I disagree. The latter is just incredibly bad faith. You both agree the claim is fake; that's fine, sure; however, the way you reach that conclusion matters, and the way Roden is reaching that conclusion is really iffy compared to yours.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him,

only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

[Roden]

I just went back and counted the votes, I think Dunn is at E-1. Are we done talking for today? And do we want a claim first before I hammer?

[Roden]

I got molded. Pretty sure this means it isn't a 3P ability because scum wouldn't just leave me alone. Also pretty sure this means Mastina is town? Night 2 having no mold victims might be because the Vig killed the intended target.

Also, why is both Bell and the Mush slot dead? I really don't think the Vig would kill one of them, but I don't see us having two groupscum at this point either.

[Roden]

I kinda want to vote Tictac for trying to encourage a wagon on STD without actually engaging with anything I said.

[Roden]

GETTING MOLDED IS NOT A REASON TO CONFIRM SOMEONE AS TOWN

ok maybe just tbb

We don’t know what the fuck it is until some claims the fuckerh of it

Why not? If it was a town ability someone would claim it. If it was 3P then that means scum don't care that I'm Polaris but 3P Mold does, even though Polaris is an enemy to the Hiss and doesn't have anything to do with the Mold.

The only problem is that we still don't know what it does, I wasn't given any more information that wasn't already provided by Bears and Mastina.

[Roden]

GETTING MOLDED IS NOT A REASON TO CONFIRM SOMEONE AS TOWN

ok maybe just tbb

We don’t know what the fuck it is until some claims the fuckerh of it

Why not? If it was a town ability someone would claim it. If it was 3P then that means scum don't care that I'm Polaris but 3P Mold does, even though Polaris is an enemy to the Hiss and doesn't have anything to do with the Mold.

The only problem is that we still don't know what it does, I wasn't given any more information that wasn't already provided by Bears and Mastina.

If it's a scum ability, scum can claim to have been molded to be cleared, no?

Why didn't anyone claim Day 2 then? The Mold distributor would know nobody alive was Molded that day and could easily claim it without worry. So why refuse to claim when it's safe to do so? And why waste a Day afterwards by not Molding someone so that you could fake claim it?

I think Day 2 having no Mold claims just proves all Mold claims are true.

[Roden]

Conveniently 2/3 of my scum reads are molded

Riiiiiight

Again you aren’t confirmed town

There could be many reasons why N2 target hasn’t come through

Anyways we need to elim scum today

I already have a town lock of the following {Tbb, andante, catboi & I}

I’m currently taking applications for a new member.

Inquire within

Catboi and Mala are likely town tbh.

Agree with these town reads. Also if the Night 2 Mold victim wants to speak up to disprove my Mold theory then they're free to speak up. Otherwise I think we just yeet Tictac.

VOTE: Tictac

[Roden]

the idea that scum have an ability that essentially townfirms its target would have to be wildly, game-alteringly strong. And there's still no reason scum wouldn't be able to bluff by claiming they were molded. Although I don't really support voting any molded claim today.

It could be a permanent Roleblock or an alternative wincon. "Confirming" someone as town isn't really true though because we can only theorize that as the truth. Pretty sure we're meant to be paranoid about it, but the fact that scum keeps killing town read players and Molding controversial players just implies that scum is spewing Mold victims as town.

[Roden]

Oh so now u think I’m Town?

I don't think I ever scum read you? The closest was when I said the logic you used to scum read me also meant you would also be scum. But that's not really a scum read, more so me just saying your logic was off the mark.

[Roden]

the idea that scum have an ability that essentially townfirms its target would have to be wildly, game-alteringly strong. And there's still no reason scum wouldn't be able to bluff by claiming they were molded. Although I don't really support voting any molded claim today.

It could be a permanent Roleblock or an alternative wincon. "Confirming" someone as town isn't really true though because we can only theorize that as the truth. Pretty sure we're meant to be paranoid about it, but the fact that scum keeps killing town read players and Molding controversial players just implies that scum is spewing Mold victims as town.

I don’t really get why scum would mold controversial slots when those are primary limbait?

That's kind of my point though? If they Molded an obvtown slot then we'd 100% know that it's a scum ability with little reason to question it. But by Molding controversial slots, now town is going to question it and doubt if all the Mold claims are real or come from scum trying to get a free pass. If Mold victims get mis-elim'd it still pushes the scum wincon forward because townies are dying and scum lives one more day.

[Roden]

the idea that scum have an ability that essentially townfirms its target would have to be wildly, game-alteringly strong. And there's still no reason scum wouldn't be able to bluff by claiming they were molded. Although I don't really support voting any molded claim today.

It could be a permanent Roleblock or an alternative wincon. "Confirming" someone as town isn't really true though because we can only theorize that as the truth. Pretty sure we're meant to be paranoid about it, but the fact that scum keeps killing town read players and Molding controversial players just implies that scum is spewing Mold victims as town.

theres no wincon alteration since game is non-bastard.
doesn't really make sense as scum pr.

personally i think it's cult, exept the culted don't change wincon/know they are culted. s why i said leave it 4 scum to hunt.

The game is confirmed to not have Cults.

Alternative scum wincons are entirely possible, SCP UPick had one for instance. Looking up the lore I'm not even sure if it could have a PR analogue that wouldn't be bastard-y, so if it isn't a Roleblock then alt wincon is the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Roden]

i kinda feel like mastina's lack of participation is getting to the point of just being scum, but idk. i guess pushing me all game gives her cover to not actually vote the partners she's been bussing?

catboi's free pass for being greeting is close to its expiration date. does he have dunn claim that way just to get himself more towncred though? maybe not

I mean, a Neighborizer did just flip. There are a few possibilities, all of which scum had to have taken into account by now.

1- As you said, he's scum and did it for town cred.

2- We have two Neighborizers and the second one just happened to die.

3- Catboi is actually the Vig and fake claimed Neighborizer.

4- Bell Neighborized both Catboi and the real Vig, and Catboi tried to protect Bell by claiming Neighborizer in his stead.

5- Catboi is uninvolved entirely with both the Vig and Neighborhood, and just correctly deduced that Dunn was fake claiming.

Unless Catboi is scum, scenarios 2 through 5 mean he likely gets resolved tonight since scum kind of have to shoot there. If he's town but scum try to WIFOM by leaving him alive and killing elsewhere, uhhhh that's not good but I think that ultimately hurts scum more so they probably don't do that.

What's interesting though is that most of these scenarios imply that Bell was the NK and that Mush was the Vig target. Unless Bell scummed it up in the hood PT, if the Vig is in there with him I don't think they ever shoot Bell. But, that means they shot Mush, and I have no idea why they'd shoot Mush. As far as I can tell, Mush wasn't seen as particularly scummy...

Another thing that concerns me is why Bell would be the NK target and not Catboi, he wasn't particularly widely town read. Honestly, both deaths last night don't make much sense to me. I don't get why either would be a NK target or Vig target. I feel like we're missing something, and I'm getting paranoid the Vig might not actually be a Vig.

[Roden]

Kinda scary that the thread went quiet.

[Roden]

I wasn’t hinting at poisoning them or w/e, I’m literally happy if they’re going to die, don’t think the poisoner is necessarily scum(depends when/if they claim), and so on.

if I claimed poisoner, does that automatically make it a scum role?

Bears won't die, they just change alignments lol

???

Claim?

Fairly certain this isn't a scum interaction.

[Roden]

hi

Hi

What made you change your read on me?

[Roden]

i rb'd you last night

I'm...not sure why this would change anything. Why does that make you think I'm town? Like I know this just makes me look argumentative, but I wouldn't be the one making the kill if I was scum because I would likely get RB'd by town, it would probably be a deep wolf doing the kill instead. I also don't get why you would admit to being a PR but it's probably anti-town to discuss that.

I don't think you're scum at this point since I think Dunn's ISO TMI's you, Andante, and Mala as town.

[Roden]

I think Mastina and Ceph are both town tbh.

[Roden]

I think Mastina and Ceph are both town tbh.

Ceph is also highlighted in there if you wanna peek yourself. <3


And toogs the point is, it gets nowhere and does nothin.

-Pinkie

I see the case with the votes, but tonally he's felt townie to me. He's had these moments of nuance and reasoning that pinged me the same way Mush would. Like with Mush it would go back and forth from scum to town, but it would do too many things that would go against a scum agenda, and I feel like Ceph has done the same all game.

And actually, speaking of Mush I feel like Ceph would've had that slot killed way sooner. It blocked a lot of his efforts to do things he wanted, like getting certain players elim'd, getting a claim out of the Bears, and just generally putting pressure on Ceph and threatening to vote him out multiple times. I think scum wanted both of them around to keep them opposed to each other.

[Roden]

Do you think Tictac flips green?

[Roden]

Do you think Tictac flips green?

dont place words in my mouth lol

I'm not, I'm asking you a question lol.

[Roden]

I think Mastina and Ceph are both town tbh.

Ceph is also highlighted in there if you wanna peek yourself. <3


And toogs the point is, it gets nowhere and does nothin.

-Pinkie

I see the case with the votes, but tonally he's felt townie to me. He's had these moments of nuance and reasoning that pinged me the same way Mush would. Like with Mush it would go back and forth from scum to town, but it would do too many things that would go against a scum agenda, and I feel like Ceph has done the same all game.

And actually, speaking of Mush I feel like Ceph would've had that slot killed way sooner. It blocked a lot of his efforts to do things he wanted, like getting certain players elim'd, getting a claim out of the Bears, and just generally putting pressure on Ceph and threatening to vote him out multiple times. I think scum wanted both of them around to keep them opposed to each other.

Isnt just the votes, it's the play.
Ceph's spewed so much crap in this game to look busy then AtE'd and taken a shot at mastina which I thought crossed a line personally.
He's also been caught lying.

-Pinkie

I'm gonna pick out the posts from his ISO that I town read to get some second opinions on then, because I do think you have a valid reason to scum read him. I just want to make sure I'm not accidentally covering for scum, especially since he has gone after me for quite a bit of this game.

[Roden]

Yooo Roden is here? I do not recall a roden post lol but I think I'm certain tictac flips maf

What? I've been posting quite a bit. Right now I'm slowly digging through Ceph's ISO, I'm gonna finish and quote the posts that town pinged me once I go on my lunch break.

Also you and Mala are TvT, pretty sure Dunn TMI'd that and I can find those posts as well.

[Roden]

i think you missed the point

you called us sus and organized but then got in a twist when we were like "so you think we're mafia" so I guess i'm trying to figure out what you meant by sus and organized if you didn't mean you thought we were mafia together

I'm saying it

looks

that way! I already said I don't think you're scum but your actions come off as scummy.

Surely you can admit how these two things are incredibly similar so why are we jumping down my throat for reading it this way.

i guess with this post i may have somewhat conceded the point on this particular one but it is interesting that this just keeps happening with only you and not anyone else.

Ceph doesn't need to make this post as scum. Ceph occasionally sees the points I'm trying to make all game, and moments like these feel real and hard to fake as scum. If he just wants to mis-elim me, having doubts like these just weaken the push.

i mentioned him here and there

i feel like he gets elimed early a lot and i'm not sure i fully understand why everyone is so fixated on him.

i think i'm more interested in the equally boring behavior coming from a slot (arcade) that is occupied by players i think of as capable

cephy if you could dayvig someone who wasn't me right now, who would it be

if you really have to ask this, i question whether you are reading the game.

besides roden

arcade, i guess?

You're allowed to be bothered.

Idk, this push got me to iso arcade and discover that it was unimpressive, maybe you could do the same?

I feel like this spews him as town. It doesn't make any sense to try to stop a wagon on one scum buddy to just bus a different one instead. And it wasn't like Dunn was just a Goon, his role was pretty strong, so I don't see it as a sacrifice play.

Ceph took a pot shot at me over a read Mastina made earlier and reignited our shit fight

ah yes i too remember when i drove to your house and held a gun to your head to force you to respond to a comment that wasn't directed at you

What is the point of posts like these if not to start another shit fight?

to defend myself against the aspersions being cast on my character

Do you not see that I have done the exact same thing? Or that you just did the exact same thing you accused me of?

i guess :/

Another moment where Ceph relented when he didn't have to if he were scum.

too much consensus on irch

Then what is your explanation for him not being dead yet?

This is just a genuinely good post.

there is nuance going on here that doesnt make sense to explain but youre so obsessed with thinking im a fuckhead that you cant trust me for 2 seconds and do something harmless safdjhfsdjhkl

no it's not a slam dunk either way but this is valuable info and im getting "lol, info??? whats the use of that fuckhead?"

This AtE makes no sense as scum, and it reads as genuine to me.

i couldnt POSSIBLY have been clearer that im not doing this to kill you

i didn't say flavor broke, stop putting words in my mouth

it is actually beyond belief that what im doing right now is causing me to be suspected more i actually cant with you people

I think he truly believed in the theory he had about Tet investigating the Bears, which to me means he's actually trying to solve the game. Like I can't read this and think there was a scum agenda at play.

[Roden]

@RODEN:

DID YOU RB TET N2

No? What makes you think I did?

[Roden]

We're just waiting on Mala I think.

[Roden]

@RODEN:

DID YOU RB TET N2

No? What makes you think I did?

Tets beginning posts was going on about soft~ targetting Andante, but somehow didn’t get a result. Which means the following:

Andante is aestic
Tet was blocked somehow via role block
Or andante was jailed and tets action was blocked

So I wanted to know if you RBD him

I didn't act at all on N2. Town doesn't have any reason to RB Tet N2 anyway since it looked like they softed a guilty on Ircher, so if they were blocked I don't really think anyone would admit to it.

[Roden]

Town doesn't have any reason to RB Tet N2 anyway since it looked like they softed a guilty on Ircher, so if they were blocked I don't really think anyone would admit to it.

Can you rephrase this somehow.

I don't think anyone but scum would've had a reason to RB Tet. Mala asking if I RB'd Tet is basically the same as asking if I'm scum.

[Roden]

Why is there a sudden aversion to voting Tictac? I get that neither Tictac or Galron are doing much to save themselves, but if we think they're both scum then why hit Galron first?

And as a follow up question...

why

would they go forward with this low energy SvS if they're both scum? Neither are trying to scum hunt or find a viable third wagon, though they also aren't really casing each other. Galron has apparently suspected me for awhile, but isn't voting me or going through my ISO to try to scum case me. I feel like my recent posts have enough content that he could dissect them if he really wanted to. Idk, this just feels really off.

[Roden]

I mean Roden, what kind of question is that? I don't think anyone here believes both tictac and galron are scum, both are scummy yes. Galron's D5 is significantly more terrible than tictac's, a lot of Galron's posts just don't read towny to me at all and the only "effort" is basically "yeah I agree with all yall. toctac is maf!" and to my knowledge there hasn't been much of a tictac push from galron

Nobody thinks both Tictac and Galron are scum? Are you sure about that?

I think tictac or Galron is a good vote today

here's my biggest problem, like all my TRs are alive, which means I'm wrong somewhere, and that's a problem

VOTE: tictac

lol what??
VOTE: Galron

VOTE: tictac

VOTE: Galron

┐(￣ー￣)┌


I am pointedly avoiding doing analysis here because I feel it is likely to be unhelpful

VOTE: tictac

I’m down to vote Galton I just wanna talk to T before we do this into night

Anyway i townread Ceph for my own reasons soo, kill Tictac anyone?

I would be fine with Galron too.

Unless you're arguing the semantics of "both are scum" vs "both are scummy" which I don't really care about. The main point I'm making is that I don't see a reason to pick one over the other. What I don't like is that we were about to flip Tictac, then the game stalled for a few days, and now people are pushing Galron. This sudden aversion to flipping Tictac is giving me major flashbacks to the Ircher and Dunn wagons, and it's weird that this doesn't seem to be pinging anybody else.

[Roden]

I do not care at all how he played in other games, I'm looking at this game, and this game alone. nothing he has done even resembles town, and just feels like overwhelmed lost scum

And here on day 5 he feels too frozen, like "tictac maf" is kinda all he'll say, we have 2 kills happening, Ircher spewed Bell town, and MUSH was very towny so I don't think town had a shot there, yet Galron is like "yall are gonna vote in us 2? not me." all game he's just said "tictac maf" no reasoning, Galron is not town, and you calling him lock town off meta??? like what even??

This is only marginally related, but if Bell was spewed town and Mush was "very towny", why did the Vig shoot one of them? Like I agree they were both townie before the flip, but why are both dead?

[Roden]

So yes Roden. I do have a preference in the 2, and I really feel like if you looked at the ISOs you would as well.

people need to look into Roden tomorrow, I don't trust him. but for now. we yeet Galron. Galron is maf. 1000%

I've looked at their ISO's, neither feel particularly scummier than the other. Both waffled on flipped scum, both have a lot of nothing posts, and both have been fairly non-existent this game.

What reason do you have not to trust me?

[Roden]

it's weird that this doesn't seem to be pinging anybody else.

have you read Galron's ISO??

tictac and galron are both just bottom of the poe, I had no preference until galron kept just not acting towny and galron's ISO screams "tictac town" soooo

I don't think Tictac is town. I don't think either are but their interactions are also just bizarre. Like it's very very clear that they're voting each other because they have to, but a red flip from either doesn't clear the other. They're not fighting to survive and I don't understand why unless they're both scum.

Roden, what are your thoughts on the mastina page top?

I think she believes in what she's saying. It's too bizarre of a defense to come from scum, and I can understand the thought process behind it. I see it as her town telling, but I don't think the case itself means Galron is town.

[Roden]

Calling it "aversion to Tictac wagon" is an stretch. I think Tictac has made slightly townie posts while Galron looks like an super scumbutt these later pages. So while i’m not 100% trusting Tictac to be town now. It certainly does influence my preference. And for someone to state "Oh this just Ircher all over again" is really annoying.

Not just Ircher, Dunn too, but that isn't the point. I don't think it's accurate to say there aren't similarities.

And Ircher actually claimed self-resolving slot sooo yah. Tictac already has claimed ascetic.
Not the same >_>

Do you not remember that Ircher's wagon kept dissipating even before the claim?

[Roden]

Look Roden, if it makes you happier, I'll flip tictac the town today, if you are THAT confident tictac is better. I'll flip. the "stalling" was just people waiting cause mala said "do not hammer I'm doing something" so no one hammered...

That isn't what I'm saying...I'm fine with flipping either, I think both are scummy. What I'm trying to understand is why people want Galron over Tictac, it felt sudden. Like, am I perceiving the game state the same as everyone else, or am I seeing something that isn't there?

aversion to Tictac wagon

it was really just people not voting cause mala asked no one to hammer I think

What I meant by that is that there wasn't much interest in Galron before Mala asked us to hold off on hammering. Once she was ready though, there was a sudden push on Galron instead and that made me want to hit the brakes.

[Roden]

They're not fighting to survive and I don't understand why unless they're both scum.

yeah not sure either... like, for me this is just a bunch of poe stuff, I have lock town reads, and just looking into those I don't TR. I SR Galron more than tictac. tictac's name was also thrown around with the dunn/ircher wagon mess if I remember. There is no freaking way dunn/ircher/tictac/galron contains all the maf though. that's like too easy

Ok thank you for saying that, I think it's too easy too. I thought I was just being paranoid but, yeah these elims feel too easy, but at the same time I feel like both Galron and Tictac are purposely fine with being getting voted out. The vibes I'm getting scare me and I feel like we're about to lose somehow but I don't get how.

I think if they are both scum then we have a deep wolf who isn't on the radar whatsoever.

[Roden]

I do not care at all how he played in other games, I'm looking at this game, and this game alone. nothing he has done even resembles town, and just feels like overwhelmed lost scum

And here on day 5 he feels too frozen, like "tictac maf" is kinda all he'll say, we have 2 kills happening, Ircher spewed Bell town, and MUSH was very towny so I don't think town had a shot there, yet Galron is like "yall are gonna vote in us 2? not me." all game he's just said "tictac maf" no reasoning, Galron is not town, and you calling him lock town off meta??? like what even??

This is only marginally related, but if Bell was spewed town and Mush was "very towny", why did the Vig shoot one of them? Like I agree they were both townie before the flip, but why are both dead?

vig is not town aligned? easy answer

If that's true, Catboi claims to have Neighborized the Vig.

@Catboi:

Has the Vig explained their kill choice in your hood chat? Do you think they actually are the Vig or is it possible that they're 3P? Can you also have them clarify who they shot?

[Roden]

They're not fighting to survive and I don't understand why unless they're both scum.

yeah not sure either... like, for me this is just a bunch of poe stuff, I have lock town reads, and just looking into those I don't TR. I SR Galron more than tictac. tictac's name was also thrown around with the dunn/ircher wagon mess if I remember. There is no freaking way dunn/ircher/tictac/galron contains all the maf though. that's like too easy

Ok thank you for saying that, I think it's too easy too. I thought I was just being paranoid but, yeah these elims feel too easy, but at the same time I feel like both Galron and Tictac are purposely fine with being getting voted out. The vibes I'm getting scare me and I feel like we're about to lose somehow but I don't get how.

I think if they are both scum then we have a deep wolf who isn't on the radar whatsoever.

mhm so I want to flip Galron, who I'm more confident flips maf, then I can go read into who I'm wrongly TRing cause I refuse to believe it's simply galron and tictac

Even if it's both of them, shouldn't there be a 5th scum? If Galron is red and Tictac is green, I feel like there would still have to be two more. Idk much about large game balance, but from what I understand isn't the ratio typically:

9 players = 2 scum
13 players = 3 scum
17 players = 4 scum
21 players = 5 scum

[Roden]

I do not care at all how he played in other games, I'm looking at this game, and this game alone. nothing he has done even resembles town, and just feels like overwhelmed lost scum

And here on day 5 he feels too frozen, like "tictac maf" is kinda all he'll say, we have 2 kills happening, Ircher spewed Bell town, and MUSH was very towny so I don't think town had a shot there, yet Galron is like "yall are gonna vote in us 2? not me." all game he's just said "tictac maf" no reasoning, Galron is not town, and you calling him lock town off meta??? like what even??

This is only marginally related, but if Bell was spewed town and Mush was "very towny", why did the Vig shoot one of them? Like I agree they were both townie before the flip, but why are both dead?

vig is not town aligned? easy answer

If that's true, Catboi claims to have Neighborized the Vig.

@Catboi:

Has the Vig explained their kill choice in your hood chat? Do you think they actually are the Vig or is it possible that they're 3P? Can you also have them clarify who they shot?

Sigh.

I talked the vig into it because I thought MUSH's posts about Dunn were bad. There's your answer. I think there's no chance of there being a 3rd party. Vig is obviously gated and I wouldn't expect a SK to be.

Pretty much the answer I expected, but alright.

[Roden]

VOTE: Galron

[Roden]

Knew the Galron wagon felt off. Problem is that Tictac might've been lined up to be the next mis-elim. Which means we have way more deep wolves than I thought and that a bunch of my reads have to be wrong.

Anyway, I have some news. I got a phone call from the afterlife, specified as "Contact From the Beyond". Kinda surprised I was chosen but apparently scum might've TMI'd a bit in the dead chat. Gonna try to paraphrase as best as I can.

First, Tet says that they still don't think STD is scum even after the claim. They don't think it makes sense to RB them and send them a letter, then confirm the presence of a Roleblocker instead of just targeting the town JK or something comparable. Only way that works is if the abilities are tied. They also believe Toog has to get elim'd next, he isn't providing any meaningful input and Tet sees it as scum indicative. Dunn also hinted that the Mold actually is a scum ability.

Bell says not to immediately go after Tictac because the vibes are bad. We need to explore everything more.

That's all I got. I pretty much agree with everything that was sent to me.

[Roden]

fine lets say i give you the benefit of the doubt. your tone here is different from tenet. who is scum and why have you been on every single mislim flash wagon? how about you just run through why you were on the galron wagon and tell me who you think is scum on that wagon. if you happen to believe that wagon is all town, you are wrong period. i absolutely refuse to believe it. and why dont you think fenny is scum because from my point of view, one of you is scum and if its not you, its fenny.

Ceph didn't vote Galron, or at least he wasn't on the final wagon. If Ceph or STD are scum then idk what the fuck they're doing, because Ceph has been getting scum read more than half this game and STD is claiming scummy roles and flavors.

[Roden]

Ok, serious question, I don't mean this in a bad way or anything, but why are the bears still alive?? they're universally agreed upon as the towniest here.. and there are 3 of them in 1 slot...

Because people keep claiming or softing powerful roles, making them priority targets over someone who hasn't claimed at all.

NGL though, I thought the Bears were Jesse, I thought they were Informed that I was town.

[Roden]

I feel like you should have asked the mod about this like immediately if it wasnt in your role PM

I didn't feel like I needed to because it quite literally says it stops hostile non-lethal actions in the role pm, and therefore that really only leaves a handful of assumptions.

also this is what i'd like currently but this is pending confirmation from my hydra buddies.
I'd like
1) a claim from cephrir
2) a claim from roden
3) a claim from mastina

Already claimed, I'm Polaris.

[Roden]

I honestly regret not just naked voting Roden for reaction.

Mush/STD/DW/Tat feel fine.

Who is DW that Dunn/Nancy were referring to here? This post and the post prior in the iso should pretty much clear Roden I think, but I'm wondering if Dunnslot was clearing a scum buddy in that grouping of 4.

That was Dwlee I believe, who got replaced by Andante.

For the record, I do believe your claim. With no one claiming Mold, since you targeted yourself you might've been the target. And your claim sounds a little too convoluted to be a fake claim.

[Roden]

LOCKTOWN
Bears
Mastina
Mala

MOST LIKELY TOWN
STD
Ceph

IDK
Andante
Norwee
Toog
Tictac

These are my current reads. My main issue is that I don't think all the scum are in my IDK reads, but I have no fucking clue which are my town reads are deep wolves.

[Roden]

Mold got TMI'd as a scum ability according to dead chat. I already assumed this beforehand though and have been town locking Mold victims.

[Roden]

Eh

Eh

Mastina could still be fakeclaiming

I mean, I guess, but it's a weird thing to fake claim, especially early on. And I don't know why the scum team would have Mastina fake claim instead of a deep wolf people actually trust.

[Roden]

What's the town case for Norwee? Why can't he be a deep wolf?

[Roden]

Literally everything about Andante makes me want to believe she's scum and flash elim her. But somehow I think she's still town.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Dunn vs Andante interactions

Bell what is your reason for pushing my slot all game?

Your posts felt wrong all game.

I don't remember you ever being so vague at an end of day wagons scenario

Or putting in so little effort

In fact, if anyone is interested in looking over Bell's iso, they have spent the last ~7 real life days only pushing on two of the lurkiest slots in the game and throwing out shallow questions to look like they're doing something.

Pay attention to Bell's progression on myself and Grendel's slot. There is no progression, he never had any reasons, and now instead of being honest and saying he's voting me for lurking, he says my posts have "felt off"

VOTE: Bell

Bell what is your reason for pushing my slot all game?

Are you saying we should’ve TRed you?

This post is gross, it's putting words in my mouth and is trying to brush aside a pretty valid question

Also not really sure why Andante is getting town reads at all

I don't think their tunnel on me due to our slot voting bell "when they were leaving" is very convincing. The argument isn't good and that they haven't found anything else to talk about is bad. 3 Bears also defaults to talking about me because it feels like they have not much else to say, maybe. Bell looks scummy to me as I outlined, and yes even if you are busy Bell and putting in a different amount of effort, I feel that you are pushing me on very little with not much else for reads

Also not really sure why Andante is getting town reads at all

I don't think their tunnel on me due to our slot voting bell "when they were leaving" is very convincing. The argument isn't good and that they haven't found anything else to talk about is bad. 3 Bears also defaults to talking about me because it feels like they have not much else to say, maybe. Bell looks scummy to me as I outlined, and yes even if you are busy Bell and putting in a different amount of effort, I feel that you are pushing me on very little with not much else for reads

I ggget what you're saying about bell but don't think it's entirely uncharacteristic for him, and, uh, his real life is kind of hell right now so I'm kind of inclined to give him a pass for that and when I looked at him there were some posts I thought were all right. I might be too attached to the idea of "Bell is psychologically incapable of posting as scum", but meh.

OK

VOTE: Andante

I guess Dunn lives till tomorrow, but I'm not a fan of this "I only talk in quote essays cause I'm catching up" there's like no actual live interactions with anyone

Anyone can look at my iso and see how wrong this is. Or were you talking about Ircher?

I wasn’t hinting at poisoning them or w/e, I’m literally happy if they’re going to die, don’t think the poisoner is necessarily scum(depends when/if they claim), and so on.

if I claimed poisoner, does that automatically make it a scum role?

Bears won't die, they just change alignments lol

???

Claim?

I'm not saying I'm confident in this at all, but here's roughly the reads

Definitely town: Andante Dwlee99

Probably Town:
MUSHSHAGANA
Bell
Cephrir
The Three Bears (Titus, Flea the Magician, Noraa)
Save The Dragons

Probably not town:
Ircher - I know there's more Ircher lines I never read though, I keep meaning to ISO.. but I don't so rip
NorwegianboyEE
Arcade Pals (Dunnstral, MariaR)


idk who this is:
Lady Lambdadelta
Galron
Roden
Malakittens
Mastina
TheWayItEnds Princess Elodie
Tet
Grendel MegAzumarill
tictac
Toogeloo
Val89 T3
Greeting


lol update: that was like a waste of time

VOTE: Malakittens

Mala is definitely still maf. Mala + Dunn

This is their lack of progression on Malakittens

not sure why you're trying to say there's more to it than there is? look at mala's ISO and tell me it's town.

You went from saying "who is this" to naked voting to saying mala is

still

scum

Add on to that the fact that Andante was the next neck up after irchers claim so that would play into their favor a bit.

You are forgetting that I was the counter wagon, not andante, for most of the day

Spoiler:

Votecount 1.8

(flavor images suspended until SirCakez is back)

"I can hear the Hotline ringing in my dreams, constantly ringing. Ringing so loud I can't hear the voice I'm straining to understand."

Ircher (5) - MUSHSHAGANA, mastina, NorwegianboyEE, Toogeloo, Roden
Arcade Pals (5) - The Three Bears, Andante, Cephrir, Save the Dragons, Tet
Grendel (3) - Ircher, Bell, Greeting
Roden (2) - Arcade Pals, Val89
Save the Dragons (1) - tictac

Not voting (4) - Malakittens, Galron, TheWayItEnds, Lady Lambdadelta

(expired on 2022-01-19 23:12:00) remain until day end

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to reach a majority.

Mastina is V/LA through January 13.

Votecount 1.9

(flavor images suspended until SirCakez is back)

Ircher (9) - MUSHSHAGANA, mastina, NorwegianboyEE, Toogeloo, Roden, Val89, Andante, Bell, Save The Dragons
Dunnstral (2) - The Three Bears, Tet
Grendel (2) - Ircher, Greeting
Roden (1) - Dunnstral
Save the Dragons (1) - tictac

Not voting (6) - Malakittens, Galron, TheWayItEnds, Lady Lambdadelta, Grendel, Cephrir

(expired on 2022-01-19 23:12:00) remain until day end

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to reach a majority.

Please let me know if you see any errors with this count!

Votecount 1.10

(flavor images suspended until SirCakez is back)

Ircher (10) - MUSHSHAGANA, mastina, NorwegianboyEE, Toogeloo, Roden, Val89, Andante, Bell, Save The Dragons, Three Bears
Dunnstral (3) - The Three Bears, Tet, Galron
Grendel (2) - Ircher, Greeting
Roden (1) - Dunnstral
Andante (1) - tictac

Not voting (5) - Malakittens, TheWayItEnds, Lady Lambdadelta, Grendel, Cephrir

(expired on 2022-01-20 11:12:00) remain until day end

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to reach a majority.

Please let me know if you see any errors with this count!

Andante clearly wasn't being voted

Title: Mafia Scum
Avatar: Wolf

Need I say more?

I think I SRed early ircher posts too, so uhh at least 1 partner was definitely on team "BUS IRCHER!"

What is the connection between you sring ircher and mafia bussing?

Or are you literally claiming mafia

I am of the opinion that Andante's stance on Malakittens was scummy. And also that their weird sort of mafia claim yesterday was never really explained, just followed up with AtE/Widom

VOTE: Andante

Moving my vote where my mouth is, will continue to consider Roden claim.

I am the townie that killed val

Can we get Andante now? I don't even know why people are voting for me.

All of this is from Dunn's ISO. I feel like this spews Andante town but I'd love some second opinions.

[Roden]

Well that didn't post right but I think you all can get the general idea of it.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Dunn vs Andante interactions

Bell what is your reason for pushing my slot all game?

Your posts felt wrong all game.

I don't remember you ever being so vague at an end of day wagons scenario

Or putting in so little effort

In fact, if anyone is interested in looking over Bell's iso, they have spent the last ~7 real life days only pushing on two of the lurkiest slots in the game and throwing out shallow questions to look like they're doing something.

Pay attention to Bell's progression on myself and Grendel's slot. There is no progression, he never had any reasons, and now instead of being honest and saying he's voting me for lurking, he says my posts have "felt off"

VOTE: Bell

Bell what is your reason for pushing my slot all game?

Are you saying we should’ve TRed you?

This post is gross, it's putting words in my mouth and is trying to brush aside a pretty valid question

Also not really sure why Andante is getting town reads at all

I don't think their tunnel on me due to our slot voting bell "when they were leaving" is very convincing. The argument isn't good and that they haven't found anything else to talk about is bad. 3 Bears also defaults to talking about me because it feels like they have not much else to say, maybe. Bell looks scummy to me as I outlined, and yes even if you are busy Bell and putting in a different amount of effort, I feel that you are pushing me on very little with not much else for reads

Also not really sure why Andante is getting town reads at all

I don't think their tunnel on me due to our slot voting bell "when they were leaving" is very convincing. The argument isn't good and that they haven't found anything else to talk about is bad. 3 Bears also defaults to talking about me because it feels like they have not much else to say, maybe. Bell looks scummy to me as I outlined, and yes even if you are busy Bell and putting in a different amount of effort, I feel that you are pushing me on very little with not much else for reads

I ggget what you're saying about bell but don't think it's entirely uncharacteristic for him, and, uh, his real life is kind of hell right now so I'm kind of inclined to give him a pass for that and when I looked at him there were some posts I thought were all right. I might be too attached to the idea of "Bell is psychologically incapable of posting as scum", but meh.

OK

VOTE: Andante

I guess Dunn lives till tomorrow, but I'm not a fan of this "I only talk in quote essays cause I'm catching up" there's like no actual live interactions with anyone

Anyone can look at my iso and see how wrong this is. Or were you talking about Ircher?

I wasn’t hinting at poisoning them or w/e, I’m literally happy if they’re going to die, don’t think the poisoner is necessarily scum(depends when/if they claim), and so on.

if I claimed poisoner, does that automatically make it a scum role?

Bears won't die, they just change alignments lol

???

Claim?

I'm not saying I'm confident in this at all, but here's roughly the reads

Definitely town: Andante Dwlee99

Probably Town:
MUSHSHAGANA
Bell
Cephrir
The Three Bears (Titus, Flea the Magician, Noraa)
Save The Dragons

Probably not town:
Ircher - I know there's more Ircher lines I never read though, I keep meaning to ISO.. but I don't so rip
NorwegianboyEE
Arcade Pals (Dunnstral, MariaR)


idk who this is:
Lady Lambdadelta
Galron
Roden
Malakittens
Mastina
TheWayItEnds Princess Elodie
Tet
Grendel MegAzumarill
tictac
Toogeloo
Val89 T3
Greeting


lol update: that was like a waste of time

VOTE: Malakittens

Mala is definitely still maf. Mala + Dunn

This is their lack of progression on Malakittens

not sure why you're trying to say there's more to it than there is? look at mala's ISO and tell me it's town.

You went from saying "who is this" to naked voting to saying mala is

still

scum

Add on to that the fact that Andante was the next neck up after irchers claim so that would play into their favor a bit.

You are forgetting that I was the counter wagon, not andante, for most of the day

Votecount 1.8

(flavor images suspended until SirCakez is back)

"I can hear the Hotline ringing in my dreams, constantly ringing. Ringing so loud I can't hear the voice I'm straining to understand."

Ircher (5) - MUSHSHAGANA, mastina, NorwegianboyEE, Toogeloo, Roden
Arcade Pals (5) - The Three Bears, Andante, Cephrir, Save the Dragons, Tet
Grendel (3) - Ircher, Bell, Greeting
Roden (2) - Arcade Pals, Val89
Save the Dragons (1) - tictac

Not voting (4) - Malakittens, Galron, TheWayItEnds, Lady Lambdadelta

(expired on 2022-01-19 23:12:00) remain until day end

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to reach a majority.

Mastina is V/LA through January 13.

Votecount 1.9

(flavor images suspended until SirCakez is back)

Ircher (9) - MUSHSHAGANA, mastina, NorwegianboyEE, Toogeloo, Roden, Val89, Andante, Bell, Save The Dragons
Dunnstral (2) - The Three Bears, Tet
Grendel (2) - Ircher, Greeting
Roden (1) - Dunnstral
Save the Dragons (1) - tictac

Not voting (6) - Malakittens, Galron, TheWayItEnds, Lady Lambdadelta, Grendel, Cephrir

(expired on 2022-01-19 23:12:00) remain until day end

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to reach a majority.

Please let me know if you see any errors with this count!

Votecount 1.10

(flavor images suspended until SirCakez is back)

Ircher (10) - MUSHSHAGANA, mastina, NorwegianboyEE, Toogeloo, Roden, Val89, Andante, Bell, Save The Dragons, Three Bears
Dunnstral (3) - The Three Bears, Tet, Galron
Grendel (2) - Ircher, Greeting
Roden (1) - Dunnstral
Andante (1) - tictac

Not voting (5) - Malakittens, TheWayItEnds, Lady Lambdadelta, Grendel, Cephrir

(expired on 2022-01-20 11:12:00) remain until day end

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to reach a majority.

Please let me know if you see any errors with this count!

Andante clearly wasn't being voted

Title: Mafia Scum
Avatar: Wolf

Need I say more?

I think I SRed early ircher posts too, so uhh at least 1 partner was definitely on team "BUS IRCHER!"

What is the connection between you sring ircher and mafia bussing?

Or are you literally claiming mafia

I am of the opinion that Andante's stance on Malakittens was scummy. And also that their weird sort of mafia claim yesterday was never really explained, just followed up with AtE/Widom

VOTE: Andante

Moving my vote where my mouth is, will continue to consider Roden claim.

I am the townie that killed val

Can we get Andante now? I don't even know why people are voting for me.

Ok, I think I fixed it. I had to remove a spoiler tag from one of Dunn's posts since it was screwing with the formatting.

[Roden]

Which specific posts look like distancing?

[Roden]

VOTE: Toog

[Roden]

Hey we're doing that thing again where several people are scum casing a slot that almost nobody town reads yet is still getting no votes and minimal pressure.

[Roden]

Literally everything about Andante makes me want to believe she's scum and flash elim her. But somehow I think she's still town.

Didn't think this would be relevant again this quickly lol

[Roden]

Tinfoil hat theory is that Andante is a Goon/Enabler that keeps trying to fall on her own sword to protect strong scum PRs.

Toog disappearing after getting scum cased by both the living and the dead while Andante keeps howling to get our attention sure is interesting.

[Roden]

Oh and real clever that i’m "not trying to change the status quo when i’m literally just trying to be relaxed and wait for claims to finish.
I’ll have you know i was itching to vote Cephrir all day but forced myself to be polite and wait for claims to finish.

Uh, your whole iso looks like a player sitting on the side following the majority.

VOTE: Andante

No flavor, Norwee?

These are the only posts Toog has made after Norwee and Mastina both gave in depth scum cases on them. Toog has nothing to say at all about the dead chat believing that they're scum. They didn't even question me on my claim, they just randomly go after Norwee instead.

[Roden]

Did anybody get mail from STD last night?

[Roden]

I believe it was Andante and Ceph.

[Roden]

Toog, do you not believe that Norwee is a deep wolf anymore?

[Roden]

Follow up question: why did you try to protect LLD during Night 1?

[Roden]

UNVOTE: so we can avoid random hammer shenanigans.

[Roden]

Unrelated but I just remembered that Galron can confirm for us if STD sent Catboi mail. Catboi tells Galron and Galron tells us.

[Roden]

Don't elim yet. I'm doing something.

[Roden]

Hey Toog, if you really want to continue to blatantly waste everyone's time and not talk, then I'm just going to assume you've entered anti-spew mode and have officially scum claimed. There's literally no reason to go silent if you're town here.

[Roden]

Follow up question: why did you try to protect LLD during Night 1?

The reason I asked this question was because I looked back to see if maybe you crumbed this at some point, but I didn't really find anything. If anything, your ISO contradicts your claim.

Spoiler: CTRL+F LLD

It's ordinary to be an awe of LLD.

Anyone else weirded out that LLD did an obvious fake vig on Noraa, Noraa took it to heart, and then LLD takes a break while Three Bears gets freebie town reads?

Food for thought.

Now I'm hungry. I could use a sandwich or something.

Like to me...

No one should ever take a day vig 24 hours into the game seriously unless it's Bad Idea Mafia, and I certainly wouldn't expect that from Noraa.

I usually expect LLD to play like she's going to die Night 1. I'm used to her gambits, and the fake day vig is easily something she's do for reactions, but she went no where with it and is now slinking in the shadows of gameplay.

The whole thing seems weird to me.

Reads List:

Norwee - Town
LLD - Null
Mastina - Scum

I'm currently a sheep.

You barely mention LLD, this was all you said about her while she was alive. All you did was show suspicion of her and call her a null read, so why would you protect her from hostile abilities? Why wouldn't you protect your town read? In fact, why didn't you target Ircher to protect him from a scum Roleblock in case he actually was a Friendly Neighbor?

Ircher confirms tonight, simples.

inb4 "I was blocked."

You even anticipate it here. Targeting LLD just doesn't make sense, and I feel pretty sure that you're lying about it.

Toog, do you not believe that Norwee is a deep wolf anymore?

This question was asked because I think you were right, I think Norwee is supposed to be the deep wolf. I believe that you're both scum and that Norwee is bussing you. But I think that because of your interactions with him today, they were just really weird. Like both of you being mostly calm all game, but then randomly getting fired up arguing with each other today, and then a low energy aftermath where you fade from the game and Norwee just wants to elim and end the day. We're approaching the end of the game and have little room for mistakes at this point, but neither of you really care or want to discuss anything further. Your ISO also has weird vibes wrt Norwee because of your wonky progression on him.

Spoiler: CTRL+F Norwee

norwee and maybe mush

Norwee is very much town, and my first strong town read, moreso than anyone else has earned.

Some people seem weirder than usual.

Reads List:

Norwee - Town
LLD - Null
Mastina - Scum

I'm currently a sheep.

I have extremely strong town reads on Dunnstral, Norwee, and Cepheir at this point. Very heavy lean town on petapa- erm... catboi.

Bears would act this way town or scum, but willing to continue sheeping LLD and skate with LLD town.

I'm starting to feel a little less around by the nose with MUSH, though I'm not commiting it as a scum read.

VOTE: mastina

I'm reading through isos right now and I'm coming to the conclusion that if there is a deepwolf, it's Norwee.

Joined the Ircher wagon while it was popular, but was always pushing people to vote elsewhere like Mega and T3. Defended Dunn days 1-3 quite a bit. But mostly... It's the noise. Norwee made a lot of noise to look busy.

There's also the matter of my superpower being that I notoriously claim that my first townread in a lot of games ends up actually being scum.

Norwee has to relay exactly what happens in the neighborhood, and it doesn't hurt their scum game and only helps them look townoer actually.

I think most importantly, Norwee isn't trying to change the status quo.

So, yeah, I think Norwee is a deepwolf. It's all vibes, but I trust my vibes.

This is town, this is town, this is town, this is scum. That's basically all you have to say about him, you don't explain your read until today when you finally scum case him, but then you drop it entirely and don't do much to follow up or defend yourself from the accusations Norwee makes. This isn't really enough to say that you two are definitely distancing...but Norwee said something that stuck out to me.

If Mastina didn’t remind me that your claim doesn’t prove anything that would not have been enough.
If you kept playing low-key and not doing much that would not have been enough.
But the audacity of posting that you think i’m a deepwolf some hours after STD said they believed i was a deepwolf and then posting it like it’s an original thought when you claimed to townread me previously? (And even using it as an point, that your townreads flip scum).
Lol: "I’m reading through some ISO’s right now" Yeah, prompted by weighing your options no doubt. Making sure to soften up for an mislim on me now that the options are getting lower is that it Toog?
I’m starting to believe Mastina’s solve is 100% correct, and this BS shading is the start of their plan. Kill Mastina, "Omg Norwee deep wolff!!" And take it home. Aided by STD and Roden that might buy into it.

Even if Tictac is scum that leaves 1-2 more. I need to reconsider some of my reads. But still trusting Mastina/Andante/Mala/Three Bears
Reconsider: Roden/Cephrir/STD/Toog/

Norwee implies that he thinks you're scum and that we aren't aligned with you since he think we might be convinced to vote him. Granted, I get why he would be worried about that, STD and I both suggested he could be the deep wolf. But earlier he said he didn't trust either of us, so why is it later that he just assumes that we're town? The scum read on you is entirely OMGUS, after going through his ISO I can see he null read you for most of the game when he wasn't town leaning you, and he town read Ceph for around 90% of this game. So why are you and Ceph the solve?

I've been sitting on these two posts for a few days now and I wasn't sure what to think of it. But I feel like if you actually wanted to pursue Norwee, you would've brought them up by now.

[Roden]

We can lim Toog now.

I'm fine with just going for an lim right now.

These posts also really concerned me. After I ask Toog to address the Norwee deep wolf case, Toog disappears and Norwee starts pressuring everyone to hurry up and vote Toog out before we can even finish the mass claim and finish any topics/conversations that were still going on. But maybe I'm just being paranoid...

If Bears and Mala was being scummy then i'd agree with finishing the mass claim.
But bears and Mala aren't scummy, so pushing for them to claim is just going to be helpful for scum so they know where it's best to shoot tonight.

...Why am I excluded here? Norwee knows I haven't full claimed yet.

Spoiler:

Toogaloo - Casper Darling
- 2 Shot HRA Researcher
- Non-lethal actions negated.
- LLD and Self. No shots remaining.

Tictac - Benicoff TV
- Vanilla Ascetic

StD - Moving Letters
- Fruit Vendor

Mastina - Ashtray
- VT (Claims Molded)

Andante - Simon Arish
- VT

Cephir - Merry Go Round Horse
- VT

Norwee - Zachariah Trench
- VT

Roden - Polaris
- N/A (Claims Molded)

Three Bears - Dylan Faden
- N/A (Claims Molded)

Malakittens - The Board
- N/A

I love structurally laying out what is known so far...

I think it's because it doesn't matter what I claim. Norwee knows where scum is shooting tonight.

[Roden]

I don’t agree at all with your narrative here btw.
You’re either way off the deep end or trying to make some weird justification for why scum!Toog=Scum!Norwee if you’re his partner.

Saying "I disagree" isn't a convincing response. I think everyone needs to seriously look at you tomorrow, and I'd rather put this out there now in case I do die tonight.

[Roden]

There’s no good reason why Toog would be an bloodsucking leech on me all game unless he wanted to cruise on my towniness. Doesn’t mean we’re partners.

?

Not sure what you mean by this?

[Roden]

Hey Toog, if you really want to continue to blatantly waste everyone's time and not talk, then I'm just going to assume you've entered anti-spew mode and have officially scum claimed. There's literally no reason to go silent if you're town here.

Hey, sorry. Not like there was a big sporting even yesterday where I decided to hang out with friendly people instead of, well... you.

To answer your question, I targeted LLD because it's LLD.

That doesn't really answer anything, and you ignored the other question entirely.

[Roden]

The correct posts is that Toog has awkward interactions with me, because he is scum.
Why does that make me scum too? That's the wrong part.

I acknowledge in my post that Toog's behavior on it's own isn't really enough to scum case you. What pings me though is that you did make a couple of scummy posts where you explicitly say that you don't trust STD and me, but then also believe we are town that might get swayed to vote you. And there isn't really much time that elapsed between those two posts, so it's hard to believe it was a natural read change.

If I'm wrong on you then I'm wrong, I'm not going to pretend it's a 100% slam dunk case. But I think you need to at least get reevaluated tomorrow, if I'm still alive I won't push for a flash elim or anything like that. I also think dead chat should give their reads on you since they have the best chance of looking at everything with a clear head and a more detached view of the game state.

[Roden]

That doesn't really answer anything, and you ignored the other question entirely.

Yeah, lol, I tend to do that.

You don't think that's anti-town to do?

[Roden]

I acknowledge in my post that Toog's behavior on it's own isn't really enough to scum case you. What pings me though is that you did make a couple of scummy posts where you explicitly say that you don't trust STD and me, but then also believe we are town that might get swayed to vote you. And there isn't really much time that elapsed between those two posts, so it's hard to believe it was a natural read change.

Not really? At most i said i wanted to reconsider you and STD, meaning i wanted to confirm if my read on you both was correct or wrong. That is not the same as saying i lost all trust in you and STD.

Not saying you lost all trust in us but that you seemed to have a reason not to trust us. Neither of us did anything to town tell by that point, and it feels odd to assume that we're both town.

If Toog was to seriously push me as an mislim then there would necesarilly need to be slots that were willing to vote me in the first place, and considering previous pages before Toog said he scumread me had both you and STD voicing concerns over me being a deepwolf it completely checks out as an opportunistic scum push from Toog. That is one of the reasons i've stated i scumread him.

It wasn't really a serious push though, that's a part of what pings me about it. Toog made two posts attacking you and then dropped it after you attacked them back. The only other thing they say is "idk Trench doesn't really fit flavor wise but I think these three other people are the scum team". It feels more like they're trying to give us a reason to trust you after they flip red.

To be fair, I didn't really out and out say you were a scum read in that post. I said "if" there was a deepwolf, you were my pick.

nuances, I know.

People always make assumptions with my posts. /sheug

Are you...trying to say you scum cased someone you didn't actually believe was scum?

[Roden]

I mean. Was anyone saying anything or finding your interaction suspicious?

[Roden]

If it's a bus it's a proper convincing bus. There's a decent amount of aggression, and Toog made a feasible case against you without saying anything particularly damning.

[Roden]

Yes, you.

Other than me obviously.

[Roden]

And why can’t it be just scum shading a town player.

It could be.

At one point you gotta ask yourself if an "convincing bus" is just non-alligned interaction.

I have. I think if you are town then you'll eventually town tell, plus I think you're a strong town player so you'll be able to catch scum and avoid getting NK'd.

Your solve is Toog/Ceph/Tictac right? They'll never kill you if you're right, since they need you alive so they can continue the narrative that you could be a deep wolf. Just make a convincing case tomorrow on your scum reads, there are very few people left who haven't expressed suspicion towards Ceph and Tictac as it is.

[Roden]

Is this the first time we've played together, Roden?

I think so. Why?

[Roden]

Final reads, Toog?

[Roden]

Lmao

VOTE: Toog

[Roden]

Toooooooog

[Roden]

I legit think we just lose here if scum can win by Molding townies

Then again, if it's completely unwinnable I think the mod just ends the game now. So I have no idea what the hell it does at this point.

[Roden]

Also I really hate the WIFOM of killing STD after people kept saying there was one scum between him and Ceph

[Roden]

we got a letter. and then i will reiterate again that our role is confirmable. tictac suggesting we elim us is strictly antitown. i think we claim today for sure but as for when, i will need to hear from my hydra buddies.

-noraa

How are you confirmable?

[Roden]

we got a letter. and then i will reiterate again that our role is confirmable. tictac suggesting we elim us is strictly antitown. i think we claim today for sure but as for when, i will need to hear from my hydra buddies.

-noraa

How are you confirmable?

i have the impulse to just claim but my buddies arent here hmm. i will give some very very obvious hints that way i can tell my hydra chat that i didnt claim o-o.

ok well we are dylan faden right? remember jesse faden? who was that again?
we were informed of their existence (think about why for a moment)
AND there is something in jesse's role that confirms another role exists ......
and that is [REDACTED]

put the pieces together yourself.

-noraa

By confirmable I meant how can you confirm yourself as town? You likely are Dylan going by Mastina meta, but he was kind of a bad guy, so that itself doesn't help.

[Roden]

VOTE: andante

Tempted to hammer test this.

[Roden]

we got a letter. and then i will reiterate again that our role is confirmable. tictac suggesting we elim us is strictly antitown. i think we claim today for sure but as for when, i will need to hear from my hydra buddies.

-noraa

How are you confirmable?

i have the impulse to just claim but my buddies arent here hmm. i will give some very very obvious hints that way i can tell my hydra chat that i didnt claim o-o.

ok well we are dylan faden right? remember jesse faden? who was that again?
we were informed of their existence (think about why for a moment)
AND there is something in jesse's role that confirms another role exists ......
and that is [REDACTED]

put the pieces together yourself.

-noraa

By confirmable I meant how can you confirm yourself as town? You likely are Dylan going by Mastina meta, but he was kind of a bad guy, so that itself doesn't help.

Just realized I confused Mastina for being one of your heads somehow.

[Roden]

I'm back to null town on Norwee after the fiasco I put myself through yesterday and the proceeding flip.

[Roden]

I'm gonna live or die by my Bears town read.

[Roden]

It has to be in or Andante/Ceph/Tictac.
I just don’t see a world where that is wrong.

Can I get a case on Ceph? People keep saying Ceph and I legitimately don't know why.