CONTROL - GAME OVER!

[Val89]

Hi all.

Finished my first read through.

VOTE: Roden

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

Put me down as another player who would like an actual explanation as to this.

[Val89]

I'm still sus (that means i think you're scum, Roden) on Roden but i think we've milked this stone for all the blood it's going to give

See, the problem is I usually find Roden to match my mental model of what town play looks like, and has escaped me as scum on more than one occasion. To see Roden play that feels as scummy as this is weird, I don't know how else to describe it.

The main problem is this LLD/Greeting unalignment issue. I don't have a strong read on LLD at this point, but Greeting is one of my top two townreads (STD being the other) from my first read through, and I don't see any reasonable basis for concluding any associative between the two, and the explaination given is no explaination at all.

I get the impression that the way Roden is trying to deal with this is a kind of treat the whole accusation as silly and anyone asking about it as being worthy of shade, and hope it'll all blow over, which it kindof has. I hoping that by continuing to bring attention back around to it, and hammer than it's not just you thinking that way, that Roden might hopefully be forced to abandon that approach.

TLDR: I'm going to continue at least attempting to milk here. I think it'll prove worth the effort one way or another.

[Val89]

This is the first game I've played featuring hydra, and I'm struggling to get a handle on how to approach them.

Which one of the three bears goes by faer?

[Val89]

I don't have a strong read on LLD at this point, but Greeting is one of my top two townreads

Nevermind, looking again, LLD is also pretty strongly town to me. I didn't realise the significance of the mod reaction first time around.

That makes Rodens claim that LLD and Greeting are unaligned even more ???.

@Roden: Like, dude, come on. I've seen your play and coming up with a read on such absolute nonsense is just so far out of the range, I think I must be missing something.

All I want is for you to explain the thinking there. At the moment it looks like very much like you pulled it out of your arse to fit a scum agenda. I think strongly that Greeting is town here, but I understand

why

people night have said Greetings play was surface level scummy, so a fake push there looks like where I might have gone as scum.

The more you bluster around and lean on your white knights and try and shade your accusers, instead of just explaining the logic there, the more it just looks like you've been caught with your trousers down with that - but everyone is allowed a off game every now and again, I guess.

[Val89]

How is this the one and only thing that's managed to catch your attention

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain

yet again

to you or anyone else.

[Val89]

I'm not going to explain yet again to you

[Val89]

Like can you show me where you've argued against the accusation I made?

Only in the same sense you could show me where you explained why LLD and Greeting are unaligned.

[Val89]

Val you had any luck interpreting any hydras yet?

-Kiepin

Something feels off with you bears, but I'm struggling to articulate what exactly it is, and I'm wondering if I simply struggling to get a handle on how to deal with a hyrda in general rather than evidence of scumminess on your part.

The fact that, for instance, I'm struggling to figure out which of the heads 'Kiepin' relates to, despite the earlier explanation, isn't helping matters.

[Val89]

Interesting that I have to ISO both of us, and in under two minutes I can find the answer you're looking for while proving your answer doesn't exist.

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain yet again to you or anyone else.

It took me

one

minute.

[Val89]

i'm a little weirded out all i got was a "I don't fucking know," same with cephrir but maybe i can see that but i'm not sure how i'm floating in anyone's null space atm i can barely keep my damn mouth shut

i think my ultimate bears opinion is they could be scum but maybe not who i want to go after d1. noraa's list is a little problematic for me if fae's had no controversial takes maybe noraa's has too many i guess? maybe? i dunno somehow there's like 7 scum and they turn it into 3 and that's impressive

They don't look very coordinated as a hydra. I think if

The Three Bears

were scum, their behaviour would be much closer to one another than it is.

Interesting that I have to ISO both of us, and in under two minutes I can find the answer you're looking for while proving your answer doesn't exist.

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain yet again to you or anyone else.

It took me

one

minute.

To do what? You still haven't answered my question.

I have. I'm not going explain again because I have.

[Val89]

At that's the last time we will have that discussion.
Call it scummy. Go on. I dare you.

[Val89]

and you said no.

That's such a misrep. Show me where I said no, Roden.

I said I had, and I wasn't going to into yet

again.

[Val89]

Roden:

I did explain it. I've explained it several times now. I'm not going to do it again.

Also Roden:

This is just a scum claim then

VOTE: Roden

[Val89]

And aren't eager to join Mega/Val wagon. Potential Ircher/Val/Arcade team?

Arcade Pals last post was 1136, and I see no evidence they have been active in thread since. That was prior to both myself and MegA's replacement joining the game. "not eager to join Mega/Val wagon" seems an odd justification in that context, and I suspect this might well be coming from a pre-conceived notion of slots others might find scummy rather than a geninue attempt to team solve.

At risk of throwing more fuel on this fire, I've always found Norwee's justification for a MegA wagon to be crap too. I know from personal experiance that the justification T3 gave for voting Norwee was just plain wrong, but I can't help but feel he might have been in the right place with the read in general.

[Val89]

Alternatively, you're being read based on your slots previous occupant.

Did I miss a wagon on T3 that Arcade expressed reluctance to join?

[Val89]

Lady Lambdadelta - null not convinced by thread lock

To be fair, the thread lock wasn't the "mod reaction" I was refering to. It was this one:

Carry/hold/??? onwards/forwards/into the unknowable future

It's possible I have either incorrectly deduced cause and effect there, or I've misunderstood what I am seeing, but for now, that is enough to put LLD in the strong town bucket, until one of those assumptions is proven false.

[Val89]

I still can't understand why, when the issue of LLDs alignment and the interaction with the bears comes up, the focus remains on the fact it was presented as a fake vig, and the fact that the mod locked the thread - something SirCakez specifically stated was not game related - rather than the other mod response.

I could understand if there was an argument being made that it could possibly have still come from scum, perhaps, but for it to have been ignored completely in favour of a discussion on what metagame info might be gleaned from the thread locking instead make me think I must be missing something obvious, here.

[Val89]

i feel like both are unimportant

Unimportant with respect to LLDs alignment, or unimportant in general?

If you mean the later, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. SirCakez says the thread locking was not related to the game state, which strongly implies the other post was.

I don't know if the apparent concensus to straight up ignore it was deliberate, and I'm not understanding due to my inexperience outside the known setup of the newbie queue, but it's fed very strongly into how I am reading LLD.

[Val89]

grendel and norwee, reading that entire exchange, felt like 1 maf talking to another maf, as an effort to distance from each other

Norwee has been gunning for the elimination of the MegA/Grendel slot since before it was cool. I'm not sure I can buy there is a 'distancing' motivation at play there.

[Val89]

how does it relate to LLD's alignment

LLD does something, Mod publically does two things, one of which SirCakez says was a bit of trolling, presumably meaning the other wasn't.

Again, I would understand an argument from people with more experience with the source, or theme games in general, that it could still possibly come from scum, or perhaps I am misunderstanding cause and effect, but my initial thinking is that if you are going to do something that invokes a public response from a mod, you aren't doing that so openly if you are scum.

[Val89]

I'm not sure I understand Cephrir. SirCakez said the locking of the thread was a bit of trolling, presumably to lend a bit of credibility to the idea LLD had legitimately dayvigged the bears. The other post wasn't mentioned, and would not do that. I assume therefore, that was legitimate and intended.

With respect to knowing that it was related to what LLD did, the short answer is that I don't know for sure, and that's what I mean by misunderstanding cause and effect, but if it wasn't, there is a big timing coincidence there.

[Val89]

I think 322 was a mod response to an activated ability that prompts a public mod response, the existence of which potentially provides a clue to one or more players alignment.

You don't?

I at least understand what StD is saying about it potentially not being caused by LLD posting "Seize: X" in the public thread, and that's something I've considered and explained why at least at this stage is an assumption I'm happy making, but im not entirely sure what you are trying to say, Cephrir.

[Val89]

Is there a case that's not based on activity?

[Val89]

Yes, I have read their posts, and have just done so again again in response to this push since I'm townreading StD and to a lesser degree, Ceph. Nothing jumped out at me, which is why I was asking.

VOTE: Bell

I think moving here will provide interesting results.

This makes absolutely no sense in context here. Bell was leaving, and an attempt to steer the conversation to someone not there?? Also so far I like Bell's lines

I see this. Is there any more to it?

[Val89]

I feel like Roden and Grendel are always the same alignment

Why?

[Val89]

his recent attempt to discredit the town reads on LLD

I'm sorry? Come again?

Look, I understand having been asked to justify your read d, you have to come up with some crap, but at least do me the curtesy of actually reading my posts, rather than glancing at them, please.

I absolutely believe this should be the lim today.

[Val89]

I am, however, willing to compromise.

I have had no reason to townread Ircher, but wasn't convinced the lack of "on-pointness" that mastina described was AI at the early stage it was raised, and thought it better to wait and see if things improved.

They haven't, but my reads on some of the characters that jumped on the wagon while I was waiting gave me pause.

I'm still not TRing that slot, though, and my head understands its probably a mistake to rely on my reads on other slots at this stage.

VOTE: Ircher

[Val89]

Aren't these posts yours?

Lady Lambdadelta - null not convinced by thread lock

To be fair, the thread lock wasn't the "mod reaction" I was refering to. It was this one:

Carry/hold/??? onwards/forwards/into the unknowable future

It's possible I have either incorrectly deduced cause and effect there, or I've misunderstood what I am seeing, but for now,

that is enough to put LLD in the strong town bucket

, until one of those assumptions is proven false.

Yes. They are. As is this one, which appears in sequence of the ones you quoted, but for some strange reason you seem to have ommited.

how does it relate to LLD's alignment

LLD does something, Mod publically does two things, one of which SirCakez says was a bit of trolling, presumably meaning the other wasn't.

Again, I would understand an argument from people with more experience with the source, or theme games in general, that it could still possibly come from scum, or perhaps I am misunderstanding cause and effect, but my initial thinking is that if you are going to do something that invokes a public response from a mod,

you aren't doing that so openly if you are scum

.

See, I might have brought the idea that Roden might have somehow mistook my posts to mean I was suggesting LLD was scum, if he were literally glancing at them with the most mininimal of attention; although I would still say to only glance at the posts of one of your top 3 scum reads when asked to justify for your reasons for it is scummy in itself, but to omit 1738 from a quote wall from 1550 to 1745, has to be deliberate. Why did you chose to do that, Roden?

Are we seriously not voting this out today?

[Val89]

@Val: I'll reply to you on Day 2 (or today if Ircher claims a PR and people get cold feet)

Looks like it's time, then. Let's see what you got.

[Val89]

Bears is town

I'm not feeling it, but I am sitting on a townlean on you, so I am willing to listen.

[Val89]

This is all you've had, I've asked you for more and got nothing btw.

Correct. I've admitted this is a vibe read, and I'm not usually one to listen to my gut if there isn't anything I can point to to back it up. I realise that I am about to label myself as one of those ego players someone was talking about, but the fact that a good portion of what I saw from you in the mid portion of the game was on my two strongest reads - STD and Roden, and we have clearly taken opposite positions on those two slots - is probably what is feeding into that.

That's the exact reason I am asking Galron to outline why he called you town there. My mind could be changed if there is some sort of logical reasoning behind it.

[Val89]

VOTE: Andante

[Val89]

I targeted catboi specifically because I was town reading the slot and didn't think they would be killed.

Why did you figure catboi was unlikley to be killed?

[Val89]

VOTE: Ircher

[Val89]

I'm an idiot. For some reason, I thought that was Ircher replying "I'm not telling you".

Vote can stand for now, though.

[Val89]

I wanna say that i think this day probably has more to offer than what you’re making it out to be.
It’s not an slam dunk case on Ircher.

I am happy with an Ircher lim today. I have to say, the irony of Norwee being the slot that comes to the thread with advice to slow down and exercise caution is not lost on me.

I was willing to give it a night and see, but I do have to ask myself why "non-consecutive night FN" would be a thing. Has that been a role in other games? This is only my second none-newbie game, but I can't see how that would aid in helping the balance of the game at all given how FN works, but it does provide a convenient out for a scum fake claim on D1. An awful lot of stars would have to align for Ircher to be roleblocked town here, and I don't think the basic premise makes sense.

I'm also asking myself where Roden is in at all this...

[Val89]

It's a rehash of what's already been said.

If that is true, I apologise.

If so, would someome with less stake in the matter mind rehashing the conclusions for me, since for me at a minimum, they have been lost in the noise.