Mini Normal 2262: NbITGBSMoD [game over]

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: wavemode for not having a voting reason

[fireisredsir]

cause mine is the 9th vote, not the 8th vote. everyone knows the 8th vote is the suspicious one

3 votes on one person in the first few votes of rvs seems like a lot to me, andante you expect there to be more wagoning than that?

[fireisredsir]

you've caught me, im an awkward person

[fireisredsir]

i actually kinda agree with the hockey suspicion, i scoped out the starts of his games and the early buttering people up doesn't really feel like his town play, which is usually more fluffposting, banter, and discussing mechanics. i only see one scum game in his history but he acted closer to this. it's not an open so there's no mechanics to discuss here, but still, he feels like more of an outsider. and like he's forcing himself to make a meaningful post with commentary on the game even when not much has happened, so he can look more town and get people off his back. feels like he's doing it because he thinks he has to instead of because it's his honest thoughts.

VOTE: HockeyFan

[fireisredsir]

Litreally what lol. I have "buttered up" people(if tring ppl early is what this means) in other games too. In Newbie 2067, I had about 2-3 reads within the first 4 posts(And I was town that game). Another game is Mini Normal 2234(Once Again town) where I townread someone within the first 2 posts so i'm not sure what meta diving u did?

nah, i read those, apparently closer than you did, cause this is disingenuous. both of those read like early banter, not an attempt at looking like you're analyzing. saying "galron locktown" in post 9 because of his rvs vote with no explanation? you're really gonna try to pretend like that's an example of a legit townread? go ahead, double down on that, please

it's more about the tone, anyway. in those two posts you pointed out 4 separate times how you liked/agreed with a part of someone's post. sometimes you townread for it, sometimes not. that's the part that feels fake, i don't think you would feel the need to point those things out if you were town. but as scum, feeling some pressure to come up with something, you might

[fireisredsir]

stephen looks a lot worse off that than dwlee does to me. pushing a pointless point and acting like you caught someone in something? hmm. i can see a certain type of scum player doing that, whether because he really thinks he has a point (he doesn't, dwlee is right here) or because he knows that dumb extended fights like that a lot of times will make others skim and assume both are town

[fireisredsir]

okay

fire and stephen are probably town here

greeting and dwlee are slightly town pinging me

VOTE: 0verki11

why the vote

[fireisredsir]

dwlee is right here

ok explain why dwlee thinks "random list" = "mafia"

you ignored all the meat of what had happened in the game so far, which usually comes from wanting to avoid having to commit to anything or having to come up with a genuine-sounding thought on stuff. there's an obvious scum motivation for that. it's also just classic scumplay to ignore the leading wagon and get distracted by other stuff, town usually will at least comment about why they're ignoring it

your list has no weight behind it, so it has no stakes. you can move away from any of those reads at any time without consequence because you didn't put any reasoning behind them. if any of the reads end up looking like good directions to push, you can come up with reasons for them later. you even said that your list was fluid

please direct all further questions on the matter to this post as everything is answered here, i will not be engaging in a spam war so do not start one please thanks

[fireisredsir]

I need you to expand on this. Why would Steven do this as scum? He spent 2 pages trying to get an answer for a mostly "mild" sus from Dwlee. If stephen is mafia, he can really just ignore dwlee's read(or play it off), what is the benefit of doing what stephen did as scum there?

there are people who just play aggressively. not everyone will just ignore attacks and play passive, some people as scum like to push back and out-pressure and just overwhelm whoever is arguing against them. i think it's actually MORE likely that he is scum because of it being a small mild point, because it means that he's forcing the argument where there totally doesn't have to be one. town probably wouldn't care because it's a minor point that should be obvious

the other benefit of that aggressive play is that you'll get people like this saying "why would mafia do that???" when it's actually super easy to do and more fun and works a lot of the time

[fireisredsir]

@mr Smith, i don't think you are avoiding coming up with thoughts. i don't really even feel that strongly about you being scum. i was just explaining why your entrance post looks bad and why you look worse in the argument with dwlee.

what are your thoughts on hockeyfan?

[fireisredsir]

tbh this entire interaction doesnt seem AI at all

Am I really the only one that finds this bad?

Stephan had a list of scumreads for ??? reason. DW was pissed b/c he was on it and it was unexplained. It's content. Deciphering wich alignment the content comes from can be tricky but just throwing your hands up and saying that it was meaningless is dumb


and scummy

nah i agree i just am already voting there and stephen is being distracting

[fireisredsir]

what are your thoughts on hockeyfan?

I would be absolutely delighted to murder him in place of killing skip bayless

I skimmed his iso and I can honestly say I don't remember a damn thing and I just read it like 2 minutes ago.

you wouldn't be... avoiding coming up with thoughts here, would you? i know you wouldn't do that. you're going to read it again more closely and give a real opinion, right?

[fireisredsir]

Have you never watched my show or something?

i have not. did you mean that you remembering nothing from his ISO was a sign of him being scum? i took it as you saying nothing stood out to you

[fireisredsir]

I felt the answers were genuinely written. There was no defiance in any of it. My main reason for that line of question was to get more of a tone.and writing style. Not necessarily concrete information.

I like to look at things a little differently when I play. Of course there are the mechanics and rules and whatnot but so many people neglect other things like tone.

i don't really scumread wave for the post, but i did think it was interesting that he said that he townread steve for offering zero explanation for his reads, feeling no need to justify himself, etc., when wave did that very same thing himself in the same post. it feels a little too clean and lines up too nicely, ya know? seemed like it could have been intentional, doing the same thing that he is then saying is a townie thing to do. i do think he could have done it as town, but i think it's not giving him enough credit to townread him for the post

[fireisredsir]

@284 and 285:
that's two people who seem to have a set idea of what maf behavior looks like and what town behavior look like. on its own I think that's wrong but not too scummy. BUT both of them are kinda going out of their way to look like their own vision of what townie looks like. wavemode thinks that lack of explanation and not really caring about being questioned is townie, and he gives super casual "yeah so what" responses to scorp and me. hockeyfan thinks that maf will ignore suspicions or downplay them, and he engages with them directly and his earlyposting still looks to me like he's going out of his way to create a thread presence to deflect suspicion

i guess it could come from a "i do this and I'm town, so i think everyone who does this is town", but something about it feels a little constructed

[fireisredsir]

Spoiler:

Greeting,
We need a centered Stephen a VS DWLEE stat!!!

Also, Stephen is my new favorite player, I read every post in his voice.

getting extra town vibes here. again they saw what I clearly see too

was this a serious note

[fireisredsir]

@frozen angel, hm i don't get that from scorpious' post. looks like he's saying "y'all are misbehaving" and "this gimmick account is fun". don't really see that as similar to your take, which has a real opinion. seems more like he is acknowledging it without actually saying anything about it. he does go back later and look at it more closely, but idk, just seemed like a weird post to get town vibes from due to agreement

[fireisredsir]

Andy this is an opinion talk show

We can make shit up if we don't know

did you make up any of your original top 5 and if so which ones?

[fireisredsir]

the person you're voting for didn't make the list?

[fireisredsir]

uhhhh person I'm voting for?? UNVOTE:
surye just hasn't posted... I'm not SRing someone cause of not posting over 300 osts

you were voting overkill

[fireisredsir]

imo full lists like that are easy to tear apart, at this stage of the game i don't think anyone would really be able to sort things that precisely, prob just general groupings. putting everyone ordered without any tiers is just asking to get overanalyzed. since he's at the bottom, i can see why scorpious would want to poke at it, and i don't think it's bad to do so (cause he thinks its a bad list if he's town, or cause it's something easy to pick at if he's maf). not sure which one this looks more like though, ill think on that

and fwiw i don't think it's a very good list either but i don't really think that makes it more likely to come from maf. maf could either just give the top 5 townreads as requested, or put some more work in to make the list look a little more convincing. i don't see much scum motivation to do a kinda sloppy partway finished list that doesn't have much to support it and won't hold up strong if anyone looks closely at it. i do see how some of those could just be gut calls and honest reads from town, and the important/stronger ones have mostly been justified already

[fireisredsir]

nero cain, scorpious, eyes without a face are giving me scum vibes

explain the nero read? an answer of "ehh idk gut" will no longer be accepted

[fireisredsir]

i cannot imagine why anyone would have an eyes without a face read in either direction unless they are process of elimination sorting, but we can ignore that for now

[fireisredsir]

wave, you responded to the one i said we could ignore for now and you ignored the direct question asking for a response

[fireisredsir]

also, more generally: my knee-jerk reaction to your question is to counter-question, why does a scum read NEED to not be gut? Let's say my nero read had been pure gut. I think if I were actively trying to convince people to vote nero with me, the discussion of whether I have logical reasoning becomes more relevant. but if it's just a gut read and I'm not even voting him, I don't quite see what the problem with that is. I guess I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from with this post? I will probably have gut reads in the future, do you believe they should not be shared?

no, but you should be prepared to explain them when asked. gut always comes from somewhere. i think you'd respond in different ways to me asking you to have more of a reason than gut depending on your alignment, so that's my motivation behind asking

[fireisredsir]

How can someone who played as mafia and lived till later phases, not know that scum can fake their town play and to look as aggressive and pushy to gain town read, even after it was directly mentioned in the thread as the reason by someone believing that could have been the fake play in response to the same post?

this reminded me of something, thought it was kinda funny and relevant:

You ever play with the one and only DkKoba?

i haven't seen a hockey town game yet but ive been town vs scum him and also coached him while being scum with him - and I get different vibes from both those games rn.

so he has played as mafia partners with someone who is apparently a prime example of an aggressive scumplayer

[fireisredsir]

@Greeting, current opinions on waveform and hockeyfan?

[fireisredsir]

eyes, is that the only thought you have on the thread? more please, give some opinions on people at least

[fireisredsir]

ha ha, funny joke, post content or im voting you

[fireisredsir]

it's not a threat, i'm kindly letting you know in advance how my opinions of your slot will evolve if you continue. if you refuse to play the game then there's no reason to think you're town. and no, debating about whether replacements are statistically more likely to be scum slots does not count as playing the game

VOTE: Eyes without a face

[fireisredsir]

I thought it was an obvious joke and it was pretty lame to throw shade there.

hmm the maf game he linked early had someone calling him out for not getting a joke on page 1... he had a similar kinda stilted manner in the first few pages of 830... i already talked about this a little when i first called him out for not having the banter tone he does as town, but maybe him not getting jokes (or just taking things too seriously early) is an actual scumtell for him

[fireisredsir]

i agree that greeting doesn't look like they usually do from what i've read. feels less independently investigative and more, idk, focused on responding and going with the flow of things while not standing out too much?

[fireisredsir]

ok ill read more closely when i have more time, but thanks for playing along everyone with the whole counter wagon on eyes thing, that was fun, but now that we've seen who was willing to jump on that massively low hanging fruit we can return to our regularly scheduled programming of a hockey lim, and if (when, imhotbqh) he flips scum then we know where to look next

VOTE: HockeyFan

[fireisredsir]

i have many conclusions but they are not worth delving into yet cause preflip discussions are kinda dumb. it did make for a lot of content that should end up being very useful later though. and it wasn't purely a reaction test, i wanted to push eyes for more content, but it's a nice added bonus

[fireisredsir]

ok read a bit closer and man greeting looks kinda bad to me regardless of hockey's alignment. but apparently he gets elimmed as town like every game so idk, not really feeling like pressuring there yet

wave looks a lil better than he did previously I think

andante looks mostly null to me but i should go read one of her scumgames

i think the "inconsistency" between the way eyes has treated the different replacement slots is dumb and am side eyeing anyone taking that seriously. i mean, what, he said "welcome FA"? y'all mad he didn't welcome you? i don't get it

[fireisredsir]

eyes looks not great here but my gut reads it more as town just having a weird mindset and maybe being a bit intimidated to share thoughts due to some of the personalities in this game. i see consistency in his inconsistency, if that makes any sense

i do not see what frozen sees at all, it did not read to me like he was specifically calling you out as a suspicious replacement, it still doesn't, and everything he has said has been consistent with the way i read the interaction. i guess you could say that it's because he just copied what i said, but meh, that's an additional assumption when to me the more obvious answer is that what i said was true. seems like a huge leap to me to think otherwise, maybe it's hard for frozen to see that because it is about her, but it's weird that dwlee sees it that way too

would much much rather lim hockey here, don't think both being maf is too likely (i think maf team could have done a better job of finding an alternative wagon, maybe they're that bad but i doubt it) andante's big post is pretty good imo

@scorpio you have so far mostly ignored the main two wagons, what's up with that? a few little things with hockey but never much of an opinion, and a lil bit of on the fence with eyes. i know it's football day but could you at least give some quick thoughts of where you are currently at with both of them por favor

[fireisredsir]

a few people have said that hockey is looking more newbie than scum (FA, greeting, and now scorpio, i think, off the top of my head), and i wanna push back on that a lil bit. imo he's played enough games to not be a newbie, most of them as town. look through this ISO from one of his more recent town games (it's not that long, come on, just do it):
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13048257

even when he got elimmed on day 2 there i don't think you can say it was cause of newbie mistakes, at least that's not how i read it. and he is just behaving so differently there to how he is here.

buuut he has a lot fewer maf games, one on site and at least one or two off site. here's the ISO, and he already linked another one:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13047489

he just feels awkward and fake in the same way he does here, saying things that don't really make sense for town to say, laying it on too thick sometimes. i think you could safely call him a newbie maf (conspiracy theory is that maybe he called himself one in scum chat and so his partners think he is a newbie overall), and i think he is making newbie maf mistakes

[fireisredsir]

i just noticed/remembered this actually, maybe that's why people thought he was more of a newbie than he is (conspiracy theory ruined, sadness):

I have like 4-5 played fourm games(so really not that much)

when he has played i count 11 completed on site and enough offsite to be mafia at least twice (the one he linked and another one where he was partners with koba). kiiinda weird to get that so wrong

[fireisredsir]

hockey at 5, eyes at 4, i think

[fireisredsir]

I was about to remove my vote but then he said he doesn't want heat for voting dwlee when its like his only scum read and it just alarmed the hell out of me specially in other few games I looked he felt way more vote/opinion happy in early games as town and someone who dumps a theory like that to reaction test (as he made reads on replacements reactions to his theory) wouldn't hesitate to actually make a push on someone he was persuing by throwing out a theory like that

i think it's a scummy mindset to have but not as much a scummy thing to post. don't know why he would bring that up as scum, like it's so bold to just be up front honest about something like that, i would be kinda impressed if he did that as maf. his kind of stubbornness in the way he is not being super helpful or forthcoming also looks a bit more town to me, even if it's kinda poor play. not gonna call him town cause on the surface he does look not great, but i don't think it's a good place to vote today

[fireisredsir]

Oh .. my .. God. Six replacements in the first half of the first game day. This game is getting harder by the minute.

it's getting way harder, 6 maf against 7 town? seems like a kinda unfair setup tbh

[fireisredsir]

okay okay touchy subject to joke about my bad

[fireisredsir]

i disagree, i don't see any intention from him of trying to appear like he's solving the game. he seems to be very straightforward about doing nothing. it makes him a not very useful player, yes, but does it make him scum? if it continues, then calling for him to be elimmed on principle is one thing, but it seems not necessary on day 1

[fireisredsir]

one original thought is basically nothing, yes. he's spent most of the time since then giving the bare minimum of responses to people questioning him, and making salty comments that directly or indirectly reference people's suspicions of him and get us nowhere. he's not literally doing nothing, he's just been unashamedly putting very little effort into making his own content or opinions (when asked to, he just complains about how people will find him suspicious for it, which, eyeroll), and i do not at all see the narrative of a scum player trying to look good. where is this "clearly wants to appear like he is solving it"?

[fireisredsir]

my sincerest apologies for using a small amount of hyperbole. i thought it would be clear that i did not mean he was literally doing nothing, just basically nothing, but i guess not

[fireisredsir]

to me it looks like he mostly stopped having interest in putting his thoughts out there when a bunch of people attacked him, and he was also annoyed by the arguments made against him, and i think his behavior has been pretty consistent with that. i think that's lazy and bad play (and silly, he said he would probably get heat for the replacement thing, and then acts all huffy when he gets heat for it), but i don't see why it can only come from scum, or even why it's that much more likely

[fireisredsir]

How experienced are you at mafia if you don't mind me asking?

he will tell you 4-5 forum games (as he did when he was asked this earlier by FA) but it's actually quite a bit more than that

[fireisredsir]

huh, i don't know if this is AI at all, but it's wild how many of the points made in that post i disagree with. like... 70, 80% of them. totally different wavelengths. i just am reading almost every post that you selected in a totally different light than you did and the consistency of that divergence is kinda impressive, makes me think that it might be that we just approach the game very differently

[fireisredsir]

my scorpio take is that i read some of 2252 and 2257 and thought he looked scummy in both, and one of them he was maf and one of them he was town. and as for the melodrama, there was plenty of that in the town game. so im not really sure how to read him this game. at first i didn't notice him much, he seemed pretty normal (and i liked how he was sus of wave since i was too), but i think it was weird how much he was ignoring the main wagons until i called him out on it

mostly i just want to hockey lim and then sort everyone else out later cause my brain gets stuck thinking about people based on how they've acted in relation to the wagons

[fireisredsir]

my thoughts are idk why that alone would have any effect on my thoughts

[fireisredsir]

i don't think that him saying he is a backup has any effect on the likelihood of him being town. yeah it increases the risk, and a lim on him is worse for town than if he was VT, but

[fireisredsir]

oops accidentally hit submit before finishing my thought

...but it doesn't change my suspicion of him, and doesn't really make me any more inclined to unvote. that might change if it were a full claim, but it isn't right now.

[fireisredsir]

if he claims to be a backup fruit vendor, i won't be inclined to unvote. if he claims to be a backup cop, i might. just being a backup on its own doesn't really say anything. maf can even be backups

i agree there could be utility in keeping him alive. i think there is a lot of utility in him dying because his flip will give us lots of information. right now i think the latter outweighs the former, but i could see that opinion changing in the future

[fireisredsir]

hey neat i agreed with more this time

[fireisredsir]

tomorrow im gonna consider who i am giving too much leeway due to my suspicion of hockey, and where i should be looking if im wrong about him. i think andante could be one of them

[fireisredsir]

after reading this a couple times, imo Nero is the more "correct" one in this argument, but i don't know if that alone says anything about alignment. FA seems like the type to want to be "correct" in any argument she makes as maf, so the fact that she isn't (especially about the defensiveness around eyes, that whole thing read very defensive to me as well) may not actually mean a whole lot, she probably thinks she's right as either alignment. it would come down more to what arguments she chooses to take, and how she could use them to her advantage. FA, you seem like the type who usually likes to look beyond the surface level (which i like!), less about what looks scummy and more about would scum do this. can you talk about what you see as nero's scum motivation here? if you see him as misrepping you, what do you think he hopes to accomplish by doing that? i don't think nero scum is too unlikely, but i want to hear your reasoning

[fireisredsir]

Spoiler: Greeting position on eyes

I explained it before

Now about my own read so far is that it was weird and so sudden that they tried to use that to generate a read on that moment and if it's not their typical playstyle (which would be an awful one) and he had no other legit reasons behind it (especially since he specifically mentioned me when there were 3 other replace ins), it's pretty much fabricated.

I find the use of that theory in that specific moment when they got questioned to participate and their lack of mentioning all other replaced slots in-game with that theory fabricated.

it can be a fabrication as a lazy town who is like yeah I just say something cause I'm asked and see where that gets me (he even predicted he'll get heat for it)
or from a mafia who really can't engage as the conversation is town-dominated.

I actually think that I lean on the first right now but I have my doubts.

Just because something sounds not quite right or is simply incorrect doesn't necessarily mean it's fake, as in the person making the post doesn't believe in it. And that's why I'm leaning towards this being NAI.

When it comes to that slot, what interested me more than 413 was 217 for reasons described in by me in 483. But I am not fully convinced that this player is the best choice to eliminate today. Right now I'm feeling more strongly about

wavemode

.

Early townreads on both Andante and Dwlee for seemingly being the driving forces of the game getting out of RVS so quickly.

Well I know this is going to bring a lot of heat my way but I should let you all know I tend to suspect replacements more. I guess it was DGB (if memory serves me right) that once said if we eliminate all replacements town always wins (or something to that effect).

Anyway welcome FA.

Also @Andante I do appreciate the townread but something tells me I have yet to earn it. Do you tend to townread people who townread you?

Dwlee99 replaces LicketyQuickety.

yeap that's what I was trying to say.

Wait, it just struck me. You are right, that is a glaring sign of inconsistence that I missed.

I will wait for the vote count before I switch.

VOTE: Eyes without a face

I think that’s E-2.

Now I have a feeling both main wagons are town.

UNVOTE: Eyes without a face

@Greeting, please explain (in great detail!) your thought progression over the course of these posts, and also your thought process on why you chose not to explain yourself when voting and unvoting. and for those following along at home, please note that there are zero greeting posts in between 590 and 714, and zero since then

[fireisredsir]

@FA, from an outside perspective (me), your reaction to eyes looked defensive. you made a big leap in assuming that because he welcomed you after talking about the replacements, he was suspecting you, and your interactions surrounding that all read as very reactive to that. it's not defensive in the sense of "you attacked me, so I will attack you for it", but it is defensive in the sense of reading something that wasn't an attack as if it was one, and jumping on him for it. i do not believe that you would have responded to his posts in the same way if you were not one of the parties involved, and you perceived an attack/suspicion from him, so thus it looks defensive. you can say that in your own head you weren't acting defensively, but the fact that it looked that way to me makes me believe that it would look that way to others, including nero.

nero is still voting hockey. i read the post in question (694) as justifying him keeping his vote there, not the distancing as you claim. he's basically saying "yeah this doesn't really change things, scum could easily fakeclaim there. it might be technically best to hold off on the lim temporarily in case he is town pr". that's, like, an incredibly reasonable thing to say. i have no idea why it alarmed you so much. the fact that he has kept his vote there is the follow up that I think you're looking for, which is saying through his actions that he doesn't think the claim is currently enough to make him want to unvote

basically, i don't see your evidence as holding water, so i don't see his case as fabricated or fake

[fireisredsir]

oh mb he switched votes to FA, missed that. point still stands imo bc he was still voting hockey when you called him out for that post

[fireisredsir]

And he kept his vote on that slot when saying it. It's just for one reason and can't have another motivation: distancing from whatever flip he will have while trying to stay consistent with his "read" on the slot.

i can't understand how you could think this. i think what i said about the claim is coming from a very similar mindset:

i don't think that him saying he is a backup has any effect on the likelihood of him being town. yeah it increases the risk, and a lim on him is worse for town than if he was VT, but

...but it doesn't change my suspicion of him, and doesn't really make me any more inclined to unvote. that might change if it were a full claim, but it isn't right now.

and i kept my vote on him. what's the difference? why is his distancing and mine isn't? it just makes no sense to me that you can think that what he said can only have one possible motivation

[fireisredsir]

eh that's not true he has been trying to push and pressure dwlee instead

[fireisredsir]

How can you not see a difference

i do not see a significant difference, they both feel like they come from the same or similar mindset to me. it feels like you are reading something into his post that just isn't there

[fireisredsir]

really? why he is not voting the slot still then?

i dunno, i think it's a weird choice, but he's been pretty clear and consistent about it. he said he thinks the vote wouldn't add any more pressure, so it's pointless. he has been asking questions of both dwlee and scorpio recently. yea sure he could be doing more, so could a lot of people, but saying he is "literally doing nothing to progress the game state" is just flat out wrong

[fireisredsir]

My main problem with them is that is basically like watching commentary on whats going on with no real conviction, they do put togther reads toward the end,but thats expected.
I also dont like how it's so condensed,perhaps to cause this exact problem,whats wrong with posting as you read?

this is a weird take. you don't like how he's commenting on what's going on with no conviction, but then acknowledge that he made reads as a result of it, but it doesn't count because that's what you expect? what? and you'd rather he spam the thread with individual posts rather than keeping them all together? didn't you just call out frozen and say that flooding a game can shut people out and hide yourself?

[fireisredsir]

hm this new attitude from eyes does not line up with how I read the slot initially... i have a harder time seeing his 217 and some of his other early behaviors genuinely coming from the person that he is acting like now

[fireisredsir]

yea scorp wtf your logic here makes no sense

[fireisredsir]

eliminating someone while they are in the middle of catching up for no reason other than that they haven't finished catching up yet is a ridiculous concept and one of the worst ideas i've ever heard come from someone who is presenting it as something that is in town's best interests

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Scorpious

cannot believe that comes from town

[fireisredsir]

he kinda tested the waters in 857 and 885 and didn't get that much pushback. maybe he just thought it would be an easy place to park his vote since all day he has wanted to avoid being on the main wagons. the "when do we consider limming that slot?" is just so weird, like, why the appeal to the crowd? it's a game with a ton of posts, he's been making effort to be thorough in catching up, and seems like he will be useful and engaged once he does. how is that a good place to lim? why would you assume that others would be on board with that?

[fireisredsir]

I’m also not the first person to ever bring this up.

this is not a lurking, contentless slot that is being useless to the game. it is someone who replaced in and is in the middle of catching up, and has given useful content in the process of catching up. provide another example of someone bringing up eliminating someone who is in the middle of catching up and has shown no signs of being useless, please

[fireisredsir]

they also replaced in only 32 hours ago, and started catching up less than 24 hours ago. there's 4 days left to deadline. if they were really taking their time and dragging out the catchup to avoid engaging with current events, then maybe i could understand why you might think it could be a good idea to vote there (it's still not), but that isn't the case at all. this just looks like scum trying to find an easy place to vote and acting like it's a normal and correct thing to do

[fireisredsir]

you have made your words very clear, there's no need to

[fireisredsir]

I’d like more from umlaut. We have zero on that slot. A catch up to 15 the a benign question. When do we consider limming that slot?

regardless, when do we consider limming that slot? as of now i feel we lose nothing except a place for scum to hide,and who knows,maybe we get lucky.

VOTE: umlaut

This slot is useless right now. Will gladly remove vote if content is produced. Just a smart play to get rid of this slot.

how else should we interpret this other than you want to lim them for the hell of it?

[fireisredsir]

You’re proclaiming that limming the lurker is more often successful than not. I gotta call bs on that.

The only real viable reason to lynch lurkers is to eliminate places for scum to
Hide. Of course you’re going to get one or two but saying it’s a big percentage play is fallacy as you would say.
If it worked so much than scum it would almost become meta to make sure you were active as scum.

Just get a vibe of you planting the seed for an easy mislim. Just thoughts

and please explain how exactly your thought process has changed from what you believed here to what you believe now, and why

[fireisredsir]

even then i don't get how you decided that it is a place for scum to hide

[fireisredsir]

yea that's fine. my observation was just that previously i thought you were acting a certain way based on assumptions i made about your personality/approach to the game, and then later you were acting differently enough that it felt like the initial impression was more you putting up a front. mafia does that, but people do it too, so mostly it just means that i need to reassess my previous read of your motivations and how you were acting

[fireisredsir]

saying that wave is clear to him if scorp flips red says nothing about a read on wave before the flip. read the post again

[fireisredsir]

i don't tend to analyze preflip either, but considering he's in danger of dying today, he may not have a chance to share that thought after the flip

[fireisredsir]

obviously if X doesn't flip red then the read doesn't ever come into effect. he isn't townreading wave right now. it's a conditional

[fireisredsir]

i don't see the big issue with sharing a thought even if it isn't immediately useful

[fireisredsir]

I know when someone has a consistent mindset forming a read on me and when I see a fake one generated. It specially works better when I'm the one they are making this read on, so I always try to be center of attention and one v one people as I'm sorting them and you know it. You know how my scum hunting is behavior analysis not direct action analysis and you know how I always hunt for inconsistencies in personality trait and in pattern of behavior as I honestly believe nearly no action is inherently scummy but they can be more likely from town or scum mindset when they appear in certain patterns of behavior.

You should know how I play the game even if it's been so long since I played on this website and if you didn't know it for real you would have question it, not fake a scum read on it when it's actually pretty evidently a method for solving the game. You just faked a scum read on my slot cause it was the most convenient for you when I called you out and you tried to justify it by misrepresenting some stuff like my eye push that even if those misrepresentations where true would put me and you on same spot with game and would never justify a scum read by you on my slot.

so, you always try to be center of attention, one v one people, and scumhunt by determining if someone is forming a fake read on you. and you are saying that you think Nero should know this about you. correct?

you are also saying that he faked a scumread on you because it was most convenient for him. if he should know how you play and how you are always looking for fake scumreads on you, then how would it be most convenient for him to fake a scumread on you? seems p inconvenient to me actually

[fireisredsir]

@ Fire

it's time for you to explain to me why Angel is town b/c I just don't see it. Or do you even town read her?

i do not, not sure why you're asking me specifically. i think her reasoning for why your case is fake is wrong, and i pushed back on that earlier. i think that both of you have at some points said something like "it's impossible that you would do this as town" and if you (both) honestly have convinced yourself of that, then that's just bad play tbh. you've also both made mistakes/inconsistencies/memory lapses/misrepresentations, whatever you want to call them, but imo she's made a lot more of them. i don't think that makes her for sure scum, but she does look more scummy out of the two of you. maybe she's just the type of player to never look up from her tunnel vision and try to see both sides, but i thought she was better than that. i do think there's some possibility that you're both town, so eh. maybe a lim on her is good though so she'll stop spamming the thread with the same points over and over again, only adding more "literally"s every time.

[fireisredsir]

I made no inconsistencies no misrepresentations and had no memory lapses and made no mistakes so you don't dare shade me like that without actually talking about it.

lmao, is your ego really that big? you think you have made zero mistakes?? come on. everyone makes mistakes. nobody is gonna call out things wrong with your argument because you have flooded the thread with wallposts and idk if anyone besides me is even reading them at this point. i think you probably would fix your read if you realize what is wrong with it (if you're town), i just doubt that you will realize anything is wrong with it. last time i pointed out how i thought your case didn't hold up, you just talked around it. you have consistently just reasoned out a way that events fit to the narrative you came up with, instead of looking at both sides and seeing which is more likely. and he could be scum, btw, i just think your reasoning is bad and full of mistakes. but anyway okay here you go

Spoiler: spam

I find how you asking for him to have extra days there but not unvoting the slot instantly inconsistent and scummy.

he didn't ask for extra days, he said it might be the correct play to do so. those are substantially different

-

You literally first said you scum read me for having a town read on slot

just straight up false and i have no idea where you got this. he first scumread you in 533 for your argument with eyes, or possibly in 716 for what he thought was a bad case on him. neither of those are at all about having a townread on hockey.

-

you said you scum read me for having a null read on the slot (which is false as I clearly said in the same post you quote for it that its a town lean)

well here's another quote for you:

I reacted to all three before and more instances of him saying some stuff that technically makes no sense as a stance. I don't find it inhently scummy. I don't town read him for it either. He is a big fat null for me - leaning scum actually but I give him a pass over my strongest suspects because of his consistency in how he plays.

so all of the times recently where you said you always expressed a town lean and never a null are false, and it's very understandable how Nero could be confused about what your read actually was because you keep changing your own representation of it.

-

I never called him scum for meta in no context.
He is scum for being consistent with what I call a mafia mindset, and with what literally can't be explained otherwise.

yes you did:

Nero is not in experienced. Nero doesn't play like that as town

-

Like you literally did a 180 switch there to act like you have a developed read on me where in reality you never said anything about why you ever scum read me

obviously false, he said why in his posts before he voted you

-

and no in no context either of any of those posts is scum reading my slot in any context.

you just saying something doesn't make it true. his posts that you're referencing here definitely look to me like they are expressing suspicion on you and explaining why, you've just decided they aren't for some reason.

-

You just faked a scum read on my slot cause it was the most convenient for you when I called you out and you tried to justify it by misrepresenting some stuff like my eye push that even if those misrepresentations where true would put me and you on same spot with game and would never justify a scum read by you on my slot.

you have the timeline wrong here. he called out your eye push before you called out his post about the claim. it also was not a misrepresentation, you definitely looked defensive to an outside observer. and how can you think that you have the right to decide what justifies someone else's scum read? just because you say that his reasons aren't good enough for you (obviously they will look bad to you, they're about you) doesn't mean they aren't good enough for him. i think it's very reasonable for him to scumread you in this situation, especially with the way the argument has progressed

there's more but it's mostly just repeats of the same things or slightly variations

[fireisredsir]

What am I missing???

Why is everyone being so ok with this slot(Umlaut) doing nothing? I swear if it gets to the point where people want to lim it,I'm looking at everyone that questioned me for bringing it up.

This is literally the fist time I've seen a lot get so much leeway 7 days into a game with 8 posts.

because he replaced in 2 days ago? why are you acting like he's been doing nothing forever? there's people who have posted almost no content in that time frame

[fireisredsir]

imo if anything a lim on Nero would encourage there to be more wallposts

[fireisredsir]

has frozen posted anything alignment indicative? pretend I'm like, a really lazy duck who hasn't read most of the game. or something like that.

you can look at some things I brought up in 1078 and her responses to them if you want. im not super convinced that her making a bad/inconsistent case is alignment indicative, but i think that it's worth looking at since it looks like a lot of people are just giving the benefit of the doubt that she has a good case

[fireisredsir]

imo if anything a lim on Nero would encourage there to be more wallposts

what's your read on nero independent of fa?

idk how to read him independent of FA since that's all he's done lately. i think that his responses have been better and more consistent than hers, and i mostly agree with his perspective so far on other things as well. that doesn't make him town but id lean that way. i also think that FA is very easy to sheep here and i am concerned about the people doing that without much thought. greeting especially looks bad to me

[fireisredsir]

strong agree

[fireisredsir]

This wagon actually reeks wow

nahh good wagon. I TR the people on it

do you TR greeting and scorpious?

[fireisredsir]

I'm pretty sure Nero is town here, unsure on Frozen so far

what changed from this andante?

[fireisredsir]

fire did you even read all the responses I wrote you? what is "inconsistent" in it that you're shading again?

yes, i read everything. i understand your perspective on some of the things, and think you misunderstood some other things, but I do not think it's worth getting into a point by point wallpost debate about it at this time. i stand by the things i brought up even if i can see more where you're coming from on some of them

[fireisredsir]

also im pretty sure FA's whole shtick is putting in tons of effort as both alignments and getting townread as scum for it, so y'all better not be townreading solely off that.

her reaction to how bad this wagon is makes me think her being town is more likely though

[fireisredsir]

please snip the pyramids it's not that hard

[fireisredsir]

Scorp SR has only really become a recent thing

uhh you sure about that

[fireisredsir]

while reading normal game 2257 (conveniently has a lot of this player list in it), i learned that andante does really weird and impulsive things as town. check out the end of day 1 there if you want to see. the level of inconsistency in her understanding of her own reads here feels past that, though

[fireisredsir]

while reading normal game 2257 (conveniently has a lot of this player list in it), i learned that andante does really weird and impulsive things as town. check out the end of day 1 there if you want to see. the level of inconsistency in her understanding of her own reads here feels past that, though

can she not fake that as mafia?

It's not about her doing weird things. She is so inconsistent and has literally no thought process. her 1234 was AWEFUL

If there is one person on this wagon who was scum it's her.

def can, just saying that alone shouldn't be a reason to suspect. i don't think jumping around and inconsistent thought process is that suspicious for her either, but she keeps making posts that are so out of line with other things she's said that it feels more like she's forgetting what her thoughts and reads are supposed to be, and then hiding behind "not reading" when called out on it. not reading the thread shouldn't affect being able to keep track of your own thoughts. it's easy to be honest.

i just can't decide who i think is more likely between her and scorp, cause they both look bad to me

[fireisredsir]

feels more like she's forgetting what her thoughts and reads are supposed to be

ok no. I keep forgetting what my actual thoughts are cause yall asked me for a list, I wrote that down, gave that, and the way people ask for stuff, I just genuinely don't remember that stuff. Reads I make on my own time, I remember those. Like I don't tr Eyes AT ALL. Hockey's claim is so bad.. Scorp is also getting on their level. but look, none of my thoughts matter cause no one else is thinking that way, so why listen to me?

ok, one example is post 1234, as FA called out. making that post makes no sense coming from a perspective of still townreading Nero. another example is you scumread scorp earlier in the game to the point where you said "almost no chance" that he's town, and then just recently you said your scumread on him was a recent thing.

[fireisredsir]

I even see it as a possibility that we have 3 scum in scorp andante and nero right now and it all make so much sense to me that I want to even cry

there's no way that we don't have at least 1, probably 2 scum just coasting in this game state

[fireisredsir]

Scorpious

is unusually enthusiastic about this game.

My gut tells me it's because of

Stephen A Smith

though.

Does them being enthusiastic about this game affect your read on them?

I thought the context of the post implied that I think it's NAI.

I also don't see Scorpious as particularly scummy this game (referencing 363). It is, however, my gut read based on the fact that his scum game often tends to be unenthusiastic and he seems to be really into it this time. I'm not ruling out scum Scorpious, but I think there's more scummy slots than that.

interesting. these are different reads, right after each other. he says it's NAI when he's questioned on it, but then when talking about it in a different context he has a gut read based on it. feels nervous

[fireisredsir]

im down for a greeting lim if we can get enough

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Greeting

[fireisredsir]

I mean like, if you can't get enough, it means people don't sr the person, so if you actually want people on the wagon, you need something convincing. something more than "if we can get enough"

or cause its hard to get enough votes cause their scum partners won't vote for them. if a wagon builds easily thats a worse sign imo

[fireisredsir]

it's more of a gut read from me but greeting just feels like he is being too careful. he knows that he gets suspicion a lot and I think his presence in this game is intentionally trying to not step on any toes. i don't really expect to get a lim on him but I was just throwing it out there

[fireisredsir]

another greeting point. the progression from 228 to 405 is weird in a similar way to what I pointed out in 1346. first he is scumreading Stephen and thinks his argument and pressure is way out of line, his play is disruptive, his rebuffs are aggressive, and he plans to vote there until Stephen convinces him he's town. then in 405, when questioned on that, he says he got nothing of the argument besides the fact that it happened, which is not what he said before and dodges frozen's 2nd point completely. he then never mentions Stephen again except to ask why he's scumreading hockey, and then has him as a light green townread in 1074. the progression from scumread to townread is fine, i guess, since i think Stephen started looking more towny, but the way that he kind of softens towards null when put under questioning is really scummy imo

[fireisredsir]

uh in the posts I was talking about, 228 to 405

[fireisredsir]

I also felt scum also jumped on nero wagon at some point too but that literally makes me more confident that it has a great chance to flip red.

this alone should tell you that you are falling victim to confirmation bias. in no unbiased world should scum jumping on a wagon, especially on day 1, make you MORE confident that the slot is maf. you're in too deep. it's fine to argue that it's believable that they're bussing, or explain how it still can make sense with your prior view of things, no problem. but there is no way to argue using any logic or rational approach that it increases the probability of nero being scum. there is nothing to support that idea

[fireisredsir]

I know you scum read him for other reasons. but said that you felt scum were jumping on the wagon, and that made you more confident of him being scum. are you taking that back now?

[fireisredsir]

so why does Nero go for greeting here, when he had barely said anything about them before, when the wagon just started and probably won't go anywhere. why wouldn't he vote for scorpious, a wagon which has already had 6 or 7 people say they're willing to vote there, and someone who he has expressed suspicion of before? i don't see why Nero would do that if he's scum, but it makes sense if he's town and just honestly finds greeting more suspicious

unless you wanna argue that scorp and Nero are partners...

[fireisredsir]

nah jumping on a wagon right away p much always looks opportunistic and makes the people doing it look worse. if he had voted scorp instead you would have said that he looked scummy for that too, you can't have both

[fireisredsir]

greeting was literally only called out for not being around... that's how these easy pushes work... "too much pressure is going towards maf? distract with this!!!"

no? i know you haven't been reading but you shouldn't just assume there isn't a case. here's my posts: 471, 813, 1346, 1378, 1397

[fireisredsir]

@andante read 1469 if you missed it

[fireisredsir]

greeting was literally only called out for not being around... that's how these easy pushes work... "too much pressure is going towards maf? distract with this!!!"

exactly. I got called out for pushing umlaut, and I was wrong.. now it looks scummy

you were wrong? explain

[fireisredsir]

it might be b/c I've already seen Eyes response to the pressure on him but I feel like FA's claim that Eye's reads are fabricated is pure nonsense. He's either scum that's doublind down or that that actually believes in that theory.

@Dwlee, in 505, u said eyes+FA could be partnered(presumably cuz of 503?), but why are u big on that being a partnery psot, when the same logic can be applied to u. Eyes TR'D you even after u being a replacement

oof

who are we limming? or like top 2-3 names?

hockey? greeting? frozen angel? eyes?

@nero everytime you post this post again to say you were suspicious of other slots you make a penguin face palm in south pole

This is literally the worst post you ever made in this game.

It first starts with your classic back and forth moves on slots not offering any content but acting like one (about eye)

"He's either scum that's doublind down or that that actually believes in that theory."

This is literally and deliberately saying NOTHING

and right before that you called what I said nonsense after it was established that it was supposedly a misunderstanding. You saying what she said is nonsense, eye is either scum or town!

That's the literally translation of the first sentence.

this is literally wrong

the first paragraph is not expressing a read on eyes, it's expressing a read on you. i don't know how you keep misreading this. the fact that eyes is either scum doubling down or actually believes the theory is there as evidence that the theory is not fabricated. it's there to show why you saying that it is fabricated is nonsense. it's not trying to determine his alignment, because the point is about the theory. it's literally giving both perspectives to show that no matter what his alignment is, he is standing by the theory.

you are misreading this completely and thinking that he is trying to look like he is offering up content on eyes while actually saying nothing. but the point of that sentence is literally NOT about eyes' alignment, it's about you and your read on his theory

[fireisredsir]

@andante read 1469 if you missed it

Oh I was here with the duck... and all that.. "if we can get 7 votes...."

so you're just going to ignore the actual case? i thought you wanted a lim on a coaster anyway, so if that's how you see him, what's the problem?

[fireisredsir]

@andante read 1469 if you missed it

Oh I was here with the duck... and all that.. "if we can get 7 votes...."

so you're just going to ignore the actual case? i thought you wanted a lim on a coaster anyway, so if that's how you see him, what's the problem?

what kind of question is that? like I'm not randomly limming in the coasters. wave is looking like the best one right now tbh

it's just weird how much you're avoiding even looking into greeting. you said you couldn't even remember his posts and thought the case was based on nothing, so I linked you 5 of mine where i go over how his posts are suspicious, and you brush that off

[fireisredsir]

eyes was a LHF wagon when it started, then he showed up and started actually posting and he's been fine imo.

dwlee do you have reasons besides that you didn't like the kill the replacement thing and that he didn't vote you when you were his top suspicion? i don't see anything else from your iso

[fireisredsir]

scorpio looks scummy to me, but there's posts that remind me more of the town game i read of his than the scum game of his (he looked scummy to me in both, soooo). so im kinda unsure about it. would prefer a lim on greeting but i think scorpio is an ok second choice if that can't happen

[fireisredsir]

It honestly blows my mind that he even resorted to analysing my half-RVS posts in 1539. That's how weak the case is. If that isn't opportunism I don't know what is.

lol this is him explaining why your early posts don't deserve a TR from wavemode, not part of his case. you're not even reading the context of the posts for someone that you have been casing and voting?

[fireisredsir]

still wrong. he's not trying to sway him (wave had just said he townread you and wouldn't vote for you), he's seeing if his reads hold up to questioning. if you were reading you would know this. you clearly just went through his ISO looking for anything you could pull out

[fireisredsir]

This comes across as p overt discrediting, and not solving. It's honestly exacerbated by the fact you clearly don't care about the circumstances around our votes & our reasoning for being on you - you just want to try and make us look bad for it.

and he can't suspect me for it since he townread me, so he instead just says it's confirmation bias (probably cause i called out FA for that) without anything to support that idea

[fireisredsir]

well he called himself LHF so maybe his plan is just to try to look like it

[fireisredsir]

Confirmation bias is what fireisredsir is experiencing, following me around for about half of Day 1 and insisting on interpreting anything I said in a scummy way, ignoring any evidence pointing to the opposite. That's something I'm just not going to argue with, because in his mind even me trying to change his mind will probably be read as scummy.

this is just wrong, ive barely talked about or interacted with you at all until recently. there were a couple early things i questioned you on but it was all side notes, a lot less than my engagement with other people. you were never my focus or even that much of a scumread for me until i started looking closer right before I voted. why is your perception so different?

[fireisredsir]

i read some and he's usually more gamesolve-y imo. confident (overly confident sometimes), not really the lurk and coast type. early this game he felt more nervous and not so pushy. i think he looks more like his usual self lately since he started actually engaging with things, which is part of why it's funny that he thinks I have confirmation bias

[fireisredsir]

the town explanation here imo is that he wanted to play things slow and quiet to avoid getting elimmed like he does every game, since town can want that too, but meh, i still think it looks like scum behavior. i don't really buy overwhelmed

[fireisredsir]

yessir a bit, more chat mafia tho

[fireisredsir]

wave just wondering have you looked at any of scorpio's past games

[fireisredsir]

wave just wondering have you looked at any of scorpio's past games

lightly but I haven't combed through them. to be perfectly honest with you I don't pay that much attention to meta these days. it's just so unreliable

that's something I tried to argue with mathdino about in an open we played not too long ago, when he was hard townreading uglyduck on the basis of meta (and basically telling me I needed to back off) but I persisted and pushed through uglyduck's elimination anyway and he was scum. meh

i don't think you should be townreading him for it. im not. but it is giving me doubt, and i don't think that you should have the level of certainty that you're expressing here

[fireisredsir]

im not certain of greeting, i think he's more likely tho. who do you think are scorp's partners?

[fireisredsir]

why are you interpreting that as me saying he's town? i want to know who you think are possibilities for his partners. that's a normal thing that town should be thinking about here, no?

[fireisredsir]

hm. ok. weird assumption that I would have that response, but ok. so you don't think it's worth considering possible partners at all? i usually have it in the back of my mind at least

[fireisredsir]

guess so. but if i have someone that im very sure is scum, that adjusts the other probabilities based on partnership likelihood. that's bayes baybee

[fireisredsir]

If I townread someone for something and they continue to play the exact same way, what, I'm supposed to scumread them now? like neither of you are making any sense here

i think its cause sometimes here it kinda feels like you're following a formula and that reads as unnatural. like there's not much depth to it, it's a shallow read that doesn't feel like it has much thought behind it. maybe that's just how you play and you're very strict about following your scumtells and towntells by the letter but i also at other times have gotten the impression that you don't do that and that you like more nuance. so it's weird when you do

[fireisredsir]

well he called himself LHF so maybe his plan is just to try to look like it

And you insist you’re not having confirmation bias? Laughable.

lol i didn't say that was most likely. and i said you looked less scummy lately

[fireisredsir]

Nero's literally right

an eyes lim isn't gonna happen today. who else you got

[fireisredsir]

hey andante guess what

if wave TRs greeting, I'm voting greeting no brakes

I think I've said all game I lean town on greeting

I think their play has been consistent with what I've always seen, nothing that's been pointed out lately has changed that

in fact I'm pretty sure I posted a reads list some pages back where they were pretty high up lol. so this is really not news?

[fireisredsir]

Nero said that FA said that consistency is a towntell cause he was making fun of her in a relevant context when scorp said that waves reads had been too consistent to be town. however it doesn't apply perfectly because FA believes in consistency of play/behavior, not consistency of reads, so now she's mad that he was misrepresenting her

[fireisredsir]

YOOOOO THAT'S A THING!!! umm look, I'll figure out that situation later, Frozen wants Nero, Frozen gets Nero. no one is distracting me from this. And yes I think it flips town, but I'm not auto tunneling Frozen for it tomorrow, I'm dealing with duck/wave/greeting later

hey how about you figure it out now instead of voting someone you townread? am i not passionate enough for you? ):

[fireisredsir]

i wanna be super clear that everyone sees here how much more willing andante is to vote someone she townreads (sorry Nero, FA is too passionate!! I must vote you! I have no choice!!) than greeting, someone she has repeatedly dodged around giving an opinion on (i don't remember anything he posted!! i will vote him if wavemode townreads!! oh, he did? uhhh gotta go bye)

if i die tonight someone promise me you shall carry this information on to the people who are not reading the thread

[fireisredsir]

hockey and duck makes 7. imo there is still one scum voting somewhere else though so they might switch to nero

[fireisredsir]

I think its Nero 6 greeting 4 rn

[fireisredsir]

i think its greeting/andante so i would be ok with limming andante but I don't think it's a good idea to switch there today with like 1 day left and zero votes on... would rather just get greeting now

[fireisredsir]

oh i was way off it's only Nero 4 now mb

[fireisredsir]

but then you've said its not a meta read despite using language that makes it sound like a meta read.

I've never and no context ever said this.

with all the times you've said "I've never in no context said this" and been wrong, it's completely lost any meaning. i brought this up before last time you said you never said anything to imply you were using meta and you ignored it:

Nero is not in experienced. Nero doesn't play like that as town

[fireisredsir]

(yes im aware you were being genuine)

what do you mean by this

[fireisredsir]

(yes im aware you were being genuine)

what do you mean by this

uhh smth like her "natural" thoughts in that entire interaction and it was clear she belived in this

that doenst make her more right tho

i thought you were scumreading her?

[fireisredsir]

wave and andante both put nero at E-1 at different times, they seem v willing to vote him. don't think they're stuck

[fireisredsir]

the "that doesnt make her more right" implies that i think it doesnt make her more town, hence I am still scumreading her

so you think (you said "know", even) that she genuinely believes Nero is scum, but you also are still scumreading her? not tryna play word games here but i really do not understand this. if she were scum it would not be genuine

[fireisredsir]

"im aware", not "i know", same deal

[fireisredsir]

wait aren't the only people on nero right now FA/Greeting/scorp

that's only calling 2 people town lol

[fireisredsir]

hi let's get greeting outta here

[fireisredsir]

andante is for tomorrow

[fireisredsir]

i mean that's 4 dante votes, add in Nero, hockey, and dwlee...

[fireisredsir]

um... im the coolest kid here...

FA is tunneled, greeting is scum, wave is eh, nobody else is really that committed imo

[fireisredsir]

thank you, everyone should follow that lead

greeting > andante > everyone else imo

if im wrong ig you can do whatever

[fireisredsir]

hot takes now since I might get murdered:

greeting flips scum = for sure andante partnered, check out her posting from 1771 to 1800. third partner could be wave! could be umlaut (be not discouraged by his andante vote)! could possibly even be hockey? idk. FA reads like mis-tunneled town to me but it could be her.

greeting flips town = idk, mb, sheep someone else. could be Nero! could be eyes! could be anyone tbh

[fireisredsir]

nooo the opposite, probably sheep you wave tbh

[fireisredsir]

everyone who posted below me is town :^)

Also @fire, relating to 1909, how do u think Umulat is a possible Greeting partner?

mostly just about the way he positioned himself today. i feel it's a possibility but not really worth getting into right now, just wanted to throw my thoughts out there

[fireisredsir]

imo it was harder than nero or scorpio or hockey

[fireisredsir]

mb, eyes is a good place to look

[fireisredsir]

idk id be more worried about andante if greeting was scum. Nero though... yea maybe

[fireisredsir]

good morning!! i am gonna try to chill more today... not sure what to think yet

[fireisredsir]

See, that's where I'm not certain Nero kills Frozen... Frozen was probably killed cause maf couldn't keep up (such as wave) like, Froen was tunneling Nero and me, neither of us died day , so like, Frozen isn't a major threat to the maf team, however, all the posting meant maf couldn't keep up, which is a major issue for maf

how is that more of an issue for maf than for town? if frozen and Nero was town v town then why would maf not want to just keep that going?

[fireisredsir]

i only count 3 votes, Stephen, scorpio, umlaut. andante unvoted.

saying that scum would not get run up that fast implies that you think at least one person on the wagon already is scum, yes?

[fireisredsir]

ok, now there's 3 votes on scorpious in less than 50 posts. is someone scum on that wagon? or is this one okay because you agree with it?

[fireisredsir]

My first thought is that someone's desperate to frame Nero. Greeting was his counterwagon and only Frozen was voting him along with Greeting.

This means that once again I won't be voting Nero today. In fact that's the first thing I have decided to do (or not to do actually) today.

I think you are overthinking this.

VOTE: Nero Cain

usually it's maf that says this

[fireisredsir]

townies often don't make sense. if they always did then this game would be easy.

i don't think which wagon came first and which one was the counterwagon so far today really matters that much because they were two of the top candidates from yesterday near the end of the day. it seems natural that suspicions would carry over and they would still be top choices

[fireisredsir]

UNVOTE: Nero does not need to be E-1 at this moment

This doesn't come from scum I don't think. If Nero is Town scum would stand their ground and wait for a hammer. If Nero is Scum the unvote brings a lot of attention to Scorpious once Nero is flipped.

what changed your mind from this?

[fireisredsir]

do you think that hockey and worst being townreads makes them that much more likely to be right

[fireisredsir]

he didn't say they were

[fireisredsir]

I wanted to see Nero defend just a little more, It was his seemingly give up post that sold me he was scum.

lmao. I "gave up". Who here thinks I gave up d1? Anyone? get outta here with that bullshit.

he's talking about this post pretty sure:

just iso? but I'm pretty much done for the time being.

but @scorp you can sheep me on this if you want, that's a dumb interpretation of it. the post was right after you/andante saying the wallpost argument was shutting people out, so he was saying he would stop arguing in circles because it wasn't going anywhere. you can suspect him for other reasons if you have them but that's a bad one imo

also besides that don't sheep me im dumb

[fireisredsir]

Who would you think Eyes partner's are with a green flip?

uhhh

what

[fireisredsir]

Who would you think Eyes partner's are with a green flip?

uhhh

what

Duh, I meant who was the team if he flipped green.

UHHHH Im not really fond of making partner reads when we dont have scum flips but stephen/andante/someone? Not sure

you're voting dwlee right now. they're not on your list of who you think is the team if eyes flips green. why would they not be? Stephen is who you said was likely to be eyes' partner and he's also on your list of who is the team if eyes flips green. so why are you not voting Stephen if he's likely scum either way?

none of y'all make any sense

[fireisredsir]

i kinda am tempted to vote eyes too. i don't like the way that his tone has gone back and forth between appease-y/trying to look towny and then this like aggressive, confident, abrasive attitude. feels like he's trying to find what his tone should be rather than genuine reactions

plus the progression of his reads on Nero, scorpious, and greeting are all kinda wack imo

[fireisredsir]

Now ask yourself if you are scum hunting or tone hunting. Do you want to find out things as they are or as you imagine them to be? What happens if I was the lim and flipped green? Who's next from your PoV?

it's not about your tone, its about the inconsistency. i talked about this already. it makes it feel like you're faking it, and faking things is usually scummy. and why would i already have a plan of who is next if you flip green? weird question to ask

like when you say this:

Frankly I don't give a shit anymore because I know I am not as convincing as the other good actors are, and by that I'm referring to the mafia team that are obviously blending in very well.

that's my point. you shouldn't have to be an actor or be convincing if you're town. just be yourself. it's weird that you would even phrase it this way if you're town, like why? if you had said "people find me scummy just for who I am", okay, thats fine, but saying "I'm not a good enough actor to look convincingly town"... that's mafia mindset. when does town ever think of themselves as an actor?

VOTE: Eyes

[fireisredsir]

no, i read it correctly. you said you are not as convincing (so you are also some level of convincing, but not enough to be successful). you said "the other good actors" (so you think of yourself as one of the group of actors, since you felt the need to distinguish the mafia as the "other" actors). i notice you dropped the very significant word "other" in your rephrase. both of those things (worrying about how convincing you are, and seeing yourself as an actor) point towards a mindset of feeling a need to convince others of something, and not towards a mindset of being your honest self.

if you were saying that your display was completely honest but falling short, why would you phrase it as you being "not as convincing as the other good actors"? i can't see any way to interpret that other than that you are feeling a need to fake something.

[fireisredsir]

my gut doesn't trust wave or umlaut but i don't know if i trust my gut

[fireisredsir]

i think he's probably fine but something about him feels like he's not playing the same game as the rest of us. he's doing all the right things but i just don't get that townie vibe yknow? and few of his responses to things have felt a little more scummy than i would like them to

[fireisredsir]

it's just copy pasted the first recipe from google. and it doesn't call for breadcrumbs, that would be more of a duck schnitzel

[fireisredsir]

it's right there in the post...

you right.. but how are you so sure duck doesnt get it? could be the third but If you flip Red, I'm zeroed on Adante,and I don't see duck anywhere in that mix. So basically you're saying a town wont get limmed so you go after another based on my vote, which makes you seem a little omgussy, no?

cannot understand what you mean by this last sentence, please try again

[fireisredsir]

it's right there in the post...

you right.. but how are you so sure duck doesnt get it? could be the third but If you flip Red, I'm zeroed on Adante,and I don't see duck anywhere in that mix. So basically you're saying a town wont get limmed so you go after another based on my vote, which makes you seem a little omgussy, no?

cannot understand what you mean by this last sentence, please try again

Felt omgussy but now that I look
At the context it feels like a bit of stretch admittedly.

mostly wondering about the "you're saying a town wont get limmed" part

[fireisredsir]

i kinda agree with eyes/umlaut and would potentially be interested in this proposition

[fireisredsir]

also there were only 4 people not on the greeting wagon (not counting FA and greeting). the worst (who was willing to be on it and helped start it so count him as on it imo), andante, wavemode, and umlaut. maybe all 3 maf were on the greeting wagon....... but i bet one wasn't

disclaimer that this is pretty weak and should not be used as the sole reason to support a case. side effects may include miselims and regret. do not operate heavy machinery within 24 hours

[fireisredsir]

eyes idk if this game link really helps your case... in that game you seem wayyy more secure in your own thoughts and you are consistently trying to solve the game in your own way. there's none of that tone shifting that i kept seeing here, i don't ever see you putting up a front, you're straightforward about the way you work and you just get to it, i don't see much of trying to buddy up to people or anything like that.

[fireisredsir]

if you are town then the most likely reason for scum umlaut to defend you there would be because he thinks that he would do the same as town in that situation. looking towny is maf goal numero uno and they a lot of times do not have some grand plan behind their actions they just do what they think they would do as town

[fireisredsir]

I plead guilty

lock em up boys

[fireisredsir]

Adante could be a pr with a result.

uh does that kinda look like it was supposed to be posted in maf chat to anyone else

why would you say this

[fireisredsir]

but like... why... if andante is a PR with a result she will decide if it's useful to share that info. when is it ever a good idea to speculate on that without any good reason

[fireisredsir]

i was kinda thinking that scorp isn't maf because maf might take some more time to actually think about what they're saying and make it not sound so bad

[fireisredsir]

do you have any reason to think nero is scum besides that FA said so

[fireisredsir]

if eyes is scum there's so many less things i have to worry about so i like this development

[fireisredsir]

eyes already hard claimed VT sooo

[fireisredsir]

duck is there any way eyes can be VT here given the information you have? there shouldn't be any ambiguity, either it's possible or it isn't

[fireisredsir]

UNVOTE:

for now just in case, will re-vote if duck says it is not possible

[fireisredsir]

it would be v dumb for scum worst to trade himself for town eyes here. i don't think that's likely at all. im more worried about the possibility of wrongtown. but worst has played a lot more than me and ill trust that he knows what he's doing even if it doesn't make sense to me

VOTE: Eyes

[fireisredsir]

nvm, I re read the worsts iso, and at the very very start of d2, it seems like they didnt have a guility on eyes, they were pushing other ppl and voting elsewhere, only AFTER 2098 is when they start pushing eyes?(its also super weird? like "hi hi" then just *vote eyes*, so im intrested about the others players thoughts if this *is* a scum claiming PR)

UNVOTE:
for now

people do not always act on their results right away to avoid making it too obvious that they got a result

[fireisredsir]

UNVOTE:

[fireisredsir]

i kinda do think nero has gotten worse. i don't really see him trying to find scum today, mostly just talking about how the votes on him are bad

[fireisredsir]

Gaahhh fire why are you answering a question I asked someone else

wasn't really answering you, just stating my thoughts. and you're not going to get an answer that tells you anything out of andante anyway. thinking that you will, and also thinking that my extremely basic and easy answer gives her an out or anything, is weird

[fireisredsir]

is Nero's role mechanically possible? I need the big brains for this one.

i have a small brain but i don't see why not

[fireisredsir]

imo the only question is if it makes sense for the setup to have an even-night gunsmith and then a backup gunsmith (which is apparently not even-night). and to that i really have no idea