Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[Mr Turtle]

Good afternoon.

VOTE: TTTT

That profile picture scares me.

[Mr Turtle]

Hey furtive
can you tell me who between Alanna and PimP
has a scummier entrance so far
and why?
yeah I know it's super early
but I need to see how you are thinking

I can't really read entrances like you seem to think you can. I will say this though, it was interesting that Alianna gave some ground in 52 and 54 when I would probably have told you to get lost. Town can be self-aware as well as mafia however.

As for PP (lol), their entrance seemed (again in a self-aware way) clumsy and awkward - 'Can't delete posts, right?'.

None of this is really something I would form reads on,

I prefer to analyse after the fact.

One thing I want to make sure of in this game is that the day 1 elimination actually provides some information, rather than people ganging up on a player for something random (ofmercia flashbacks).

After what fact?

In your opinion, would you say "clumsy and awkward" entrance posts are more likely to be town or mafia?

[Mr Turtle]

Hey furtive
can you tell me who between Alanna and PimP
has a scummier entrance so far
and why?
yeah I know it's super early
but I need to see how you are thinking

I can't really read entrances like you seem to think you can. I will say this though, it was interesting that Alianna gave some ground in 52 and 54 when I would probably have told you to get lost. Town can be self-aware as well as mafia however.

As for PP (lol), their entrance seemed (again in a self-aware way) clumsy and awkward - 'Can't delete posts, right?'.

None of this is really something I would form reads on,

I prefer to analyse after the fact.

One thing I want to make sure of in this game is that the day 1 elimination actually provides some information, rather than people ganging up on a player for something random (ofmercia flashbacks).

After what fact?

The day 1 vote will give us a flip. I will use that to analyse day 1.

In your opinion, would you say "clumsy and awkward" entrance posts are more likely to be town or mafia?

No opinion on that like I said, just giving TTTT what they wanted.

So what is your plan for day 1 while you wait for a flip?

[Mr Turtle]

Hey furtive
can you tell me who between Alanna and PimP
has a scummier entrance so far
and why?
yeah I know it's super early
but I need to see how you are thinking

I can't really read entrances like you seem to think you can. I will say this though, it was interesting that Alianna gave some ground in 52 and 54 when I would probably have told you to get lost. Town can be self-aware as well as mafia however.

As for PP (lol), their entrance seemed (again in a self-aware way) clumsy and awkward - 'Can't delete posts, right?'.

None of this is really something I would form reads on,

I prefer to analyse after the fact.

One thing I want to make sure of in this game is that the day 1 elimination actually provides some information, rather than people ganging up on a player for something random (ofmercia flashbacks).

After what fact?

The day 1 vote will give us a flip. I will use that to analyse day 1.

In your opinion, would you say "clumsy and awkward" entrance posts are more likely to be town or mafia?

No opinion on that like I said, just giving TTTT what they wanted.

So what is your plan for day 1 while you wait for a flip?

I will probably wait for a wagon to form, then defend the person getting voted/question the people on the wagon

I understand that from the perspective of a newer player it may seem like there isn't much to go off of during day 1, but just waiting on D1 until a wagon forms doesn't help advance town in any way. D1 is usually the hardest day-phase, because it's about creating content without actually having much content to go off of. Hence why RVS is a good way to get the game started.

I don't get your point about defending the person getting voted? Will you defend them regardless of your read on them?

Scratch that, I will give some very primitive reads, on order of how town I think a player is.

My biggest townread is Mr Turtle. They seem quite frank in a way that mafia might not be on day 1.

Also townlean on TTTT, seem to be trying to advance the game.

I will stay neutral on Somnus, they have said nothing about the game so far.

Lukewarm has said eww twice and nothing else, so no read.

Marci has not arrived yet - no read.

Alianna had a strange interaction with TTTT at the start, I will say no read because it wasn't really game related but could be nervous mafia or nervous town. Either way nervous

PimpPestPlay has seemed a bit blendy so far, almost like they want to be ignored in some posts. I will need more substance from them, for now it is a tentative scumlean.

BigTerp asked if I was cop in one of their first posts, which seems strange. Did they really not know I was joking about being a Rolecop? And do they really not know what the difference between Cop and Rolecop is alignment-wise? They insist on having no confusion but have given me some confusion so far. It could be that they aren't a native speaker/are new to this website/setup?
For now it's a tentative scumlean.

I'm glad you shared some initial reads. I have a couple questions though.

Why is mafia not frank on day 1?
Do you reckon that Somnus not saying anything about the game but still having a high amount of posts is alignment-indicative in any way?
Could PImPestPlay be blendy because they're new & nervous? Why are they a scum-lean?

I'm glad that you shared your reads and it makes me want to town-lean you. Some of your reasonings I don't see or agree with, but that's fine considering that it's early on and that they're bare-boned.

[Mr Turtle]

I'm questioning the conclusion BigTerp got in post 108.

Confusion is a tool that can be used to town's benefit. While mafia may use confusion to manipulate town to some extent, mafia doesn't like too much chaos. The more confusing the thread gets, the more room there is for scum to slip as they aren't prepared for the confusion. The mafia relies that things follow their agenda and if there is no structure, it's hard for them to fit in.

Oftentimes a quiet, structured or stagnant game means that mafia is in control of the thread. If mafia were close to being caught, they'd try to use chaos and confusion to get out of it. Obviously, if nothing confusing or actionable is happening, mafia is perfectly content with their position in the game and that's a bad sign for town.

I don't think joking or meta reads have helped mafia, really. If anything, they've helped town. Joke posts are often relaxed and authentic, something which can be harder for scum to fake. Talking about a previous games can help contextualize, to those of us who haven't played or spectated those games, about who has meta reads on each other or who has radically changed their playstyle since their last game (possibly indicating an alignment shift).

[Mr Turtle]

I'm questioning the conclusion BigTerp got in post 108.

Confusion is a tool that can be used to town's benefit. While mafia may use confusion to manipulate town to some extent, mafia doesn't like too much chaos. The more confusing the thread gets, the more room there is for scum to slip as they aren't prepared for the confusion. The mafia relies that things follow their agenda and if there is no structure, it's hard for them to fit in.

Oftentimes a quiet, structured or stagnant game means that mafia is in control of the thread. If mafia were close to being caught, they'd try to use chaos and confusion to get out of it. Obviously, if nothing confusing or actionable is happening, mafia is perfectly content with their position in the game and that's a bad sign for town.

I don't think joking or meta reads have helped mafia, really. If anything, they've helped town. Joke posts are often relaxed and authentic, something which can be harder for scum to fake. Talking about a previous games can help contextualize, to those of us who haven't played or spectated those games, about who has meta reads on each other or who has radically changed their playstyle since their last game (possibly indicating an alignment shift).

Like I've already said, it's not at all how I'm use to playing this game. There was and has been a lot of talk about previous games, and I now understand that's a tactic, strategy, etc for many here. Which is obviously fine. I'm just not comfortable relying on others interpretations of how a particular player is playing this game compared to previous ones. I prefer to draw my own conclusions on how everyone is currently playing. I know day 1 there is little to go on, but that's why I try to find something different or odd for me to latch into early.

As far as the confusion goes, apparently I'm the only one it causes it for, LOL!! But I disagree that confusion is better for town versus Mafia. If everyone is scrambling it's easier for mafia to nudge the votes in the direction they want without being noticed. If things are running smoothly yet votes but where Mafia wants them, it's harder for them to make that vote shift unnoticed.

I'm liking your breakdown of the game so far. You seem to belooking at posts thoroughly and providing good conversation about those posts. Feels very town like to me.

That's fair. You shouldn't rely on other people's meta reads on each other. Making your own impressions is important! However, other people briefly discussing it may serve as a pointer to get started on reading someone. Both ways are equally appropriate, but I wouldn't call any of them more scummy than the other. They're simply different.

Your point about mafia liking confusion is good. Personally, I don't go as far as saying playing chaotic or confusing is alignment-indicative. I've played with chaotic players that just have that as their play style and insist that it makes them catch scum faster. It really depends on perspective and what "type" of confusion it is. But yeah, confusion can definitely help the mafia if they know how to use it to their benefit.

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

I knew for sure it wasn't your role, don't worry about that (I'm Rolecop not Goon)

Imagine saying that, then winning the game as an actual mafia rolecop. I don't have much experience, so I don't believe I can read people on day 1. Can't say causing chaos on day 1 makes someone scum, since that day matters the least. From where I'm standing everyone is just tying themselves into a knot. Guess I'll vote, just because everyone else is.

VOTE: Somnus

What do you mean that everyone is tying themselves into a knot?

[Mr Turtle]

Just FYI
I'm sick sick sick
been up all night puking my guts out
not thinking at my peak today
hoping tomorrow is better and I'll get back in this

Oh no. Get well soon!

[Mr Turtle]

Does anyone seem scummy to you?

Are you talking to me or someone else?

[Mr Turtle]

Does anyone seem scummy to you?

Are you talking to me or someone else?

WAIT OOPS-
I meant to you but anyone can respond ig

Yes, I didn't really like

furtiveglance

's answers to my questions in posts 103 & 110 as well as his mindset 114 & 117. To me it seems that he doesn't want to solve the game because it's day 1 and hides between a curtain of meta by saying "but last game we mis-eliminated on day 1!". However his reads list in 131 was good. He does a full 180 following 130 and puts an effort in to solve, it seems. The actual reads list is hedgy, but I attribute that more to newness than scumminess. Tonally I feel like he's been a bit stiff and forced, as I believe you and Lukewarm already previously pointed out (224 or 8, for example). I'll be honest and say that I have little idea whether his newness is clouding my judgement. Currently, I have him as a scum-lean.

PlmPestPlaY

has the least amount of posts. He OMGUS' Somnus, makes a couple of statements I didn't really get in 201. I hope we can convince him to post a bit more and be more confident, else he'll remain completely unreadable. His lack of posting is

probably

due to this being his first forum game - I've been in the exact same place not even that long ago; however there's always the possibility of him being an overwhelmed mafia. He's in the null range for me, but I'd love to see a bit more thoughts even if they're basic and bare-boned.

I'm a bit wary of you,

marcistar

. I don't get whether the latter part of 208 is a joke or not, but being vague makes it much harder to read you and not voting does too. Being able to double down on a take because you formulated it vague on purpose rarely helps the town and it's hard to know where you're at regarding your reads. I also agree with BigTerp's take on you with regards to the vague questions. Asking questions is completely valid and fine - I've done so a lot as well - but I'm missing the part where you draw conclusions from the answers that you've gotten and share them with the thread. However I did like your post in 169. You seemed to be putting effort into the game and the case on furtiveglance is the most well thought-out case this game. I just don't get why you wouldn't vote him after saying you find him scummy and casing him? I get that you want to make sure that you like the vote (208), but you seemed to have built a rather convincing case on him. At the moment, you seem the scummiest to me. Maybe you could explain to me why you asked the questions and what you got out of the answers (198, 158 etc.)? How do you plan on solving this game, what's your approach? It would be appreciated.

VOTE: marcistar

[Mr Turtle]

Mr Turtle, was my reads list good or hedgy?

Sorry, I could've formulated that better! The premise of your reads list was good. It showed that you were taking initiative and putting in an effort to solve, even though you were prodded to do so. The actual reads were hedgy, which I don't blame you for. I used to be very hedgy as well. I believe that it's more related to newness than anything else.

Does anyone seem scummy to you?

Are you talking to me or someone else?

WAIT OOPS-
I meant to you but anyone can respond ig

Yes, I didn't really like

furtiveglance

's answers to my questions in posts 103 & 110 as well as his mindset 114 & 117. To me it seems that he doesn't want to solve the game because it's day 1 and hides between a curtain of meta by saying "but last game we mis-eliminated on day 1!". However his reads list in 131 was good. He does a full 180 following 130 and puts an effort in to solve, it seems. The actual reads list is hedgy, but I attribute that more to newness than scumminess. Tonally I feel like he's been a bit stiff and forced, as I believe you and Lukewarm already previously pointed out (224 or 8, for example). I'll be honest and say that I have little idea whether his newness is clouding my judgement. Currently, I have him as a scum-lean.

PlmPestPlaY

has the least amount of posts. He OMGUS' Somnus, makes a couple of statements I didn't really get in 201. I hope we can convince him to post a bit more and be more confident, else he'll remain completely unreadable. His lack of posting is

probably

due to this being his first forum game - I've been in the exact same place not even that long ago; however there's always the possibility of him being an overwhelmed mafia. He's in the null range for me, but I'd love to see a bit more thoughts even if they're basic and bare-boned.

I'm a bit wary of you,

marcistar

. I don't get whether the latter part of 208 is a joke or not, but being vague makes it much harder to read you and not voting does too. Being able to double down on a take because you formulated it vague on purpose rarely helps the town and it's hard to know where you're at regarding your reads. I also agree with BigTerp's take on you with regards to the vague questions. Asking questions is completely valid and fine - I've done so a lot as well - but I'm missing the part where you draw conclusions from the answers that you've gotten and share them with the thread. However I did like your post in 169. You seemed to be putting effort into the game and the case on furtiveglance is the most well thought-out case this game. I just don't get why you wouldn't vote him after saying you find him scummy and casing him? I get that you want to make sure that you like the vote (208), but you seemed to have built a rather convincing case on him. At the moment, you seem the scummiest to me. Maybe you could explain to me why you asked the questions and what you got out of the answers (198, 158 etc.)? How do you plan on solving this game, what's your approach? It would be appreciated.

VOTE: marcistar

This post further cements my thoughts on Mr. Turtle as town and Marcistar as scum. Specifically their thoughts on Marcistar. It aligns almost exactly with my own thoughts.

Mr. Turtle - Do you have any insight on other players? Either scummy or town reads and why? Any comments/thoughts on my breakdown of everyone in the game?

Yeah, I'll give a short reads list (with colors!).

BigTerp

- You have a very straight forward and therefore transparent thought process, which I like. Although you sometimes take jokes seriously, you ask a lot of questions. You are open to understand and to re-assess, which makes me believe that you aren't just looking for someone to push but that you are actually trying to solve the game.

Alianna

- Their entrance seemed authentic. Their interactions with TTTT are definitely not something I'd expect a first time player to fake. Their transparency is also towny. Overall, they seem very comfortable in the thread. Also a hedgey reads list, which I once again will attribute to newness. I do hope that they come back soon, though.

TTTT

- TTTT has interestingly given little explanations to their posts. It's something I have seen a lot of more experienced players do, though for what I do not know. I also believe this is what makes them hard to read. The posts and explanations I've seen from them have been towny this far. Their ISO features a lot of live interaction with other people which I know is hard to fake.

Somnus

- I don't really know what to do with them. They have a high volume of posts and they're playing aggressively. This implies that they aren't afraid to be loud, which is good for town. For this reason alone I'll town-lean them, but I need to re-assess this sooner or later.

Lukewarm

- Hasn't been around much. Their opinion on furtiveglance seems to come from a genuine place, but they haven't done much else notable.

furtiveglance

- Explained above

PImpPestPlaY

- Explained above

marcistar

- Explained above

---------------------

As far as comments on your reads list goes: What do you think of Alianna's posts on page 1 & 2? Do you think that it's fakeable for their first game, especially with regards to their transparency towards TTTT? I definitely agree with you about Lukewarm being the least memorable. I'm hoping that they will post a bit more today. Also, is the reads list ordered? If so, why are Somnus + PPP above TTTT?

[Mr Turtle]

Big fan of Turtles's 182

Spoiler:

Hey furtive
can you tell me who between Alanna and PimP
has a scummier entrance so far
and why?
yeah I know it's super early
but I need to see how you are thinking

I can't really read entrances like you seem to think you can. I will say this though, it was interesting that Alianna gave some ground in 52 and 54 when I would probably have told you to get lost. Town can be self-aware as well as mafia however.

As for PP (lol), their entrance seemed (again in a self-aware way) clumsy and awkward - 'Can't delete posts, right?'.

None of this is really something I would form reads on,

I prefer to analyse after the fact.

One thing I want to make sure of in this game is that the day 1 elimination actually provides some information, rather than people ganging up on a player for something random (ofmercia flashbacks).

After what fact?

The day 1 vote will give us a flip. I will use that to analyse day 1.

In your opinion, would you say "clumsy and awkward" entrance posts are more likely to be town or mafia?

No opinion on that like I said, just giving TTTT what they wanted.

So what is your plan for day 1 while you wait for a flip?

I will probably wait for a wagon to form, then defend the person getting voted/question the people on the wagon

I understand that from the perspective of a newer player it may seem like there isn't much to go off of during day 1, but just waiting on D1 until a wagon forms doesn't help advance town in any way. D1 is usually the hardest day-phase, because it's about creating content without actually having much content to go off of. Hence why RVS is a good way to get the game started.

I don't get your point about defending the person getting voted? Will you defend them regardless of your read on them?

Scratch that, I will give some very primitive reads, on order of how town I think a player is.

My biggest townread is Mr Turtle. They seem quite frank in a way that mafia might not be on day 1.

Also townlean on TTTT, seem to be trying to advance the game.

I will stay neutral on Somnus, they have said nothing about the game so far.

Lukewarm has said eww twice and nothing else, so no read.

Marci has not arrived yet - no read.

Alianna had a strange interaction with TTTT at the start, I will say no read because it wasn't really game related but could be nervous mafia or nervous town. Either way nervous

PimpPestPlay has seemed a bit blendy so far, almost like they want to be ignored in some posts. I will need more substance from them, for now it is a tentative scumlean.

BigTerp asked if I was cop in one of their first posts, which seems strange. Did they really not know I was joking about being a Rolecop? And do they really not know what the difference between Cop and Rolecop is alignment-wise? They insist on having no confusion but have given me some confusion so far. It could be that they aren't a native speaker/are new to this website/setup?
For now it's a tentative scumlean.

I'm glad you shared some initial reads. I have a couple questions though.

Why is mafia not frank on day 1?

Do you reckon that Somnus not saying anything about the game but still having a high amount of posts is alignment-indicative in any way?
Could PImPestPlay be blendy because they're new & nervous? Why are they a scum-lean?

I'm glad that you shared your reads and it makes me want to town-lean you. Some of your reasonings I don't see or agree with, but that's fine considering that it's early on and that they're bare-boned.

Especially the line that I highlighted. Would not expect a newbie scum to undercut a town read handed to them for a fairly weak reason.

I just saw that I misread Turtle's join date, and it was in 2020, not 2021. This is probably a weaker point if they have been around, but I do still like it.

Back again to amend this. Just checked how many games they have, and despite joining in 2020, they have not been in game. Looks like they have exactly 1 newbie game before this, and they did not play much in there.

I'd like to clarify that I've played a bit on other sites since then.

Spoiler:

marcistar - Not liking 169. The read on furtive was questionable. Felt like she was fishing for reasons to find them scummy. I didn’t see any of the things she was talking about. 204 seems suspicious as well but I would expect that more from newbie scum. So not sure quite what to think.

What about its questionable? "fishing for reasons to find them scummy" what do you thinks gonna happen so early on when not much has been established? What about the things I was talking about can't you see? I could try to explain better but you didn't really talk too much about what feels bad here so idk whats confusing for you.
how is 204 suspicious at all? my bad i wont ask people for their reads.

PlmPestPlaY

has the least amount of posts. He OMGUS' Somnus, makes a couple of statements I didn't really get in 201. I hope we can convince him to post a bit more and be more confident, else he'll remain completely unreadable. His lack of posting is

probably

due to this being his first forum game - I've been in the exact same place not even that long ago; however there's always the possibility of him being an overwhelmed mafia. He's in the null range for me, but I'd love to see a bit more thoughts even if they're basic and bare-boned.

The only thing I've found weird about 201, is the knot thing, but thats just because im dumb.

I'm a bit wary of you,

marcistar

. I

don't get whether the latter part of 208 is a joke or not,

but being vague makes it much harder to read you and not voting does too. Being able to double down on a take because you formulated it vague on purpose rarely helps the town and it's hard to know where you're at regarding your reads. I also agree with BigTerp's take on you with regards to the vague questions. Asking questions is completely valid and fine - I've done so a lot as well - but I'm

missing the part where you draw conclusions from the answers that you've gotten and share them with the thread.

However I did like your post in 169. You seemed to be putting effort into the game and the case on furtiveglance is the most well thought-out case this game. I just

don't get why you wouldn't vote him after saying you find him scummy and casing him?

I get that you want to make sure that you like the vote (208), but you seemed to have built a rather convincing case on him. At the moment, you seem the scummiest to me. Maybe you could

explain to me why you asked the questions and what you got out of the answers (198, 158 etc.)?

How do you plan on solving this game, what's your approach? It would be appreciated.

It's only partly a joke, I don't enjoy being vague but I don't really have time to do much compared to what other people do. I also kind of generally don't like being agressive, I like waiting until I feel like I

want

to vote, and not caring about whether it'll take off or not.

If the answer to any of my questions were meant to help me solve or anything,

if I drop the topic it's probably just the response was "fine enough".

I find him scummy, but not enough to vote. I posted the case to see reactions, and to see if furtiveglance has any way to defend themself first.

198 was a read I had, but didn't want to word in a case like I did with furitiveglance yet, and wanted to see what bigterp thought first.

I think now people have seen what I've seen though

. I've heard somebody say once that scum has a harder time having thoughts similar to townies, so I've been wanting to test that lately and see if anybody else can see what I see. Simple as that.

My plans just to ask questions and watch for as long as until I get a strong feeling like I want something, and then vote that and park there. It's so much easier when I just poke at things until I get into it. >.<

Let me know if any of these colors are hard for any of you to read.

Spoiler:

You'd rather be vague and wrong than aggressive and wrong? I mean, I guess that makes sense if you don't want to look scummy with a bad read. But that could very easily come off as mafia trying to hide behind vague posts and reads and then be able to come back with an excuse of they weren't confident or sure on their reads/votes.

What if I am unsure of my reads
Nah honestly, if I convince myself it's someone, but it isn't, I'll lose motivation thats what usually happpens but idk how to stop that.

No need to wait until your 100% convinced of that to put your vote down.

No I need to wait because I'll probably end up forgetting about ever making the vote in question.

This is the first they've discussed Marcistar, unless I missed something, have them as "slightly scummy" (along with me) yet doesn't have votes on either of us. Seems like a good way to be able to come back to either of us (myself and Marcistar) later and claim they've been reading them scum when they flip scum. I know I'm town, so that only leaves one conclusion. I'm pegging Alianna and Marcistar as the scum team.

Why are you jumping to preflip associatives? Did it never cross your mind that Alianna could possibly have a reason to be scum reading me "so suddenly"?

I like the pressure on Marci. Would like to get them more involved in the game.

A wagon on me of this size

isn't

the way to "get me more involved" believe it or not. If anything it'll make me focus more on defending myself/responding to seeing my name, if we're lucky in terms of me having time I would throw out a few reads, but nothing really says they would be good in anyway.

Some of marcistar's posts look like they came from a bot. But I'm not sure I want to put marcistar on E1.

Seen people talking about this, it isn't a weird comment. I'm unnatural right now.

What are your reads on the entire playerlist, for when you do get back?

I've seen this, I'm acknowledging it, I'm ignoring it now.
Ask me about specific people if you care, but I don't think its useful to make a whole readslist thats just 90% "hehe idk they could be either alignment!!"

Could you clarify the first blue part (bolded)? The second blue part also has a part I don't get - what have you and others seen?

I appreciate the honesty of your response, but I feel like your approach is a bit passive. Asking questions is good, but it's easy for mafia to look productive while asking questions without actually doing much solving. This is why I asked about what you get out of your questions. Parking your vote makes you harder to read and is also ideal for scum. I understand not wanting to be wrong, but not committing doesn't benefit town in the end. Also, the colors are great, don't worry about it.

----------------------

I really liked Luke's reads. They don't seem to be afraid to have different opinions from the consensus and push those reads, something which puts them in the spotlight. I don't think this type of attention-grabbing comes from mafia.

Luke, you said that you didn't want to commit on a read on marcistar before they posted more. They've posted a bit more now. What're your thoughts on them?

[Mr Turtle]

BigTerp, I acknowledge your thoughts on Alianna. I disagree, I think that their first day was quite natural, but I am a bit discouraged by their reduced amount of posting from early day 1. Hopefully they'll pick it back up.

Luke - another question. What is the difference between an over-defensive towny and scum desperately trying to push someone in Somnus' case?

May I ask, am I the only one who has a hard time understanding PPP's posts? They're worded very confusingly and I don't really know what to make of it.

[Mr Turtle]

Welcome MorbidDino.

[Mr Turtle]

I've decided to ISO Lukewarm to see if I was able to move them out of my null range.

Regarding marcistar

: During the first twenty four hours of the game, Lukewarm pretty much waits for her to show up (11, 77 & 157) with the reasoning that she is "easiest to read in the very start of the game, before she has found her footing". What I don't like about this is that they barely do anything and it feels as though they are hiding behind said reasoning to not do anything. Having someone to meta read at the beginning of the game makes it easier to "get into" the game so to speak, but it's also an easy way for scum to look busy. Then Luke has a bit of a back and forth of friendly banter with marcistar (160 & 164) and paired with their hyper-focus regarding their interactions with her (162 & 282), I deem them unlikely to be mafia partners. Note that when 164 was posted, 7 out of 10 posts in Luke's ISO had explicitly mentioned, quoted or been about marcistar. Later, Luke starts defending marcistar based on meta reads (286 & 299), claiming that most of her lack of vote and joke scumfession were NAI. In 294 they post their first concrete read on marcistar as "null scum". To me, this progression seems a bit messy, which I rate as being more likely towny than not. In 313, Luke voices his distaste with the E-1 vote, something which I also see as towny. They then make a non-read on marci by saying that they "want to hold off comitting to a read on her" and place them in their null range (317 & 318). Furthermore, Luke cements marcistar's null position by defending their retracted vote and subtly defending her (347, 348 & 352). I like Luke trying to slow the thread down on the marcistar wagon, it doesn't strike me as benefiting the mafia. 396, 399 & 400 are used to defend marci once again based on their scum reads, however Luke backtracks a bit by saying "I don't think that this is a slam dunk Marci is town case". I am not overjoyed by the hedginess on marcistar since a lot of Luke's posts have been used defending her. The hedginess is continued in 412, the posts 413, 414, 415 & 419 are meta dives into marci's past games, but Luke admits that he doesn't have any reliable meta tells and thus marcistar stays in the null range.

Conclusion

: Lukewarm spends a lot of time and posts semi-defending marcistar by dismissing many reasons for scum reading her as NAI while staying null throughout the entire game (minus the occasional "maybe town" or "maybe scum" comment). What makes me dislike the null read especially is the fact that I count 25-30 posts made that more or less directly have to do with marci in a 70 post ISO. With that being said, I don't think that Luke can be mafia if marcistar is. No-one enters the thread and spends a third of their posts on their scum buddy. Overall, I rate Luke's interactions with marci as lean town for them. If marci is town, I'm going to scrutinize Luke some more. Outside of the associative reads, I understand that Luke latches on to the player they best know to post about. This is something I would do as well. However, I'm a bit disappointed that the reads always end nullish.

General thoughts

: On the other hand, the rest of Luke's ISO has been quite towny since their reappearance 281. I don't want to dwell on this as long as the Luke-marci interactions, but I have a couple comments here as well. What stuck out to me the most was Luke not going with the flow. When Luke reemerged at 281, their reads were independent from thread consensus. Multiple reads lists had been posted, it would have been really easy to simply "copy" them without having anyone really bat an eye. But Luke didn't, instead they scum-cased Somnus and placed a scum lean on BigTerp in 316. The lock-town on TTTT also doesn't benefit scum!Luke (420). As mafia, Luke would want to either
a) push for TTTT to get lynched, or
b) night-kill TTTT without having a strong connection tied to the kill.
But by putting TTTT as their highest town, scum!Luke wouldn't be able to do a) or b) without receiving suspicion. The fact that Luke town-locked TTTT without having pressure on them to do so makes me feel better about them.

Conclusion

:

I'm comfortable with putting Luke as a town read

. What Luke lacks in towniness regarding their marcistar read they make up with their other posts. Particularly if marci turns out to be mafia it will make me more confident in my Luke read. They have just had a towny thread presence in this game.

[Mr Turtle]

Waw. It appears to be true, at least for this type of setup. Given what I've learned, I am now a lot less interested in the game for some reason. Sooo eeeh double wappa? VOTE: Somnus

Ok. So there's 2 I didn't understand, but there's a couple other ones that I have questions about. Surely you knew that in mafia, people get voted off, correct? I'm not being sarcastic when I ask that, so please don't take my question as me being snide because I promise you I'm being serious. I've never played on Epic Mafia, but is it so fundamentally different from forum mafia that you didn't know the goal that we're working towards? What changed to make you less interested in the game pertaining to the setup? Help me understand.

It's been a long time and I doubt I was any good at it, but in the version of the game that I played, random voting was bad, from what I recall. I fail to see the distinction between that and what we're doing.

Random voting is bad in night-focused setups and games. These are generally found on more casual forums with a PR-filled setup. Here, the PRs (power roles) can do the work at night to catch mafia and the game first really starts by day 2 when there is some concrete information to go off of.

Random voting is good in day-focused setups and games. These are generally found on more "hardcore" forums or setups with a small amount of PRs and many VTs (vanilla townies). Here, there is nothing concrete to go off of and you have to throw random votes until something sticks or until you can make a read on a player. There is a lesser reliability on the PRs.

Random voting is technically the "better option" for playing mafia (except for MeLo as Luke has already said), but in more relaxed settings it is often seen as worse or "wrong-er".

[Mr Turtle]

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

The furtiveglance read and the marcistar read are largely independent. I thought marcistar's post on furtiveglance was the townies thing she had done up to that point and I agreed with some of the reasonings in the post. I don't see the need to do associative reads before we have a concrete alignment flip. With that being said, I'd like to revisit my scum and town leans (including furtiveglance) soon.

[Mr Turtle]

Spoiler:

I've decided to ISO Lukewarm to see if I was able to move them out of my null range.

Regarding marcistar

: During the first twenty four hours of the game, Lukewarm pretty much waits for her to show up (11, 77 & 157) with the reasoning that she is "easiest to read in the very start of the game, before she has found her footing". What I don't like about this is that they barely do anything and it feels as though they are hiding behind said reasoning to not do anything. Having someone to meta read at the beginning of the game makes it easier to "get into" the game so to speak, but it's also an easy way for scum to look busy. Then Luke has a bit of a back and forth of friendly banter with marcistar (160 & 164) and paired with their hyper-focus regarding their interactions with her (162 & 282), I deem them unlikely to be mafia partners. Note that when 164 was posted, 7 out of 10 posts in Luke's ISO had explicitly mentioned, quoted or been about marcistar. Later, Luke starts defending marcistar based on meta reads (286 & 299), claiming that most of her lack of vote and joke scumfession were NAI. In 294 they post their first concrete read on marcistar as "null scum". To me, this progression seems a bit messy, which I rate as being more likely towny than not. In 313, Luke voices his distaste with the E-1 vote, something which I also see as towny. They then make a non-read on marci by saying that they "want to hold off comitting to a read on her" and place them in their null range (317 & 318). Furthermore, Luke cements marcistar's null position by defending their retracted vote and subtly defending her (347, 348 & 352). I like Luke trying to slow the thread down on the marcistar wagon, it doesn't strike me as benefiting the mafia. 396, 399 & 400 are used to defend marci once again based on their scum reads, however Luke backtracks a bit by saying "I don't think that this is a slam dunk Marci is town case". I am not overjoyed by the hedginess on marcistar since a lot of Luke's posts have been used defending her. The hedginess is continued in 412, the posts 413, 414, 415 & 419 are meta dives into marci's past games, but Luke admits that he doesn't have any reliable meta tells and thus marcistar stays in the null range.

Conclusion

: Lukewarm spends a lot of time and posts semi-defending marcistar by dismissing many reasons for scum reading her as NAI while staying null throughout the entire game (minus the occasional "maybe town" or "maybe scum" comment). What makes me dislike the null read especially is the fact that I count 25-30 posts made that more or less directly have to do with marci in a 70 post ISO. With that being said, I don't think that Luke can be mafia if marcistar is. No-one enters the thread and spends a third of their posts on their scum buddy. Overall, I rate Luke's interactions with marci as lean town for them. If marci is town, I'm going to scrutinize Luke some more. Outside of the associative reads, I understand that Luke latches on to the player they best know to post about. This is something I would do as well. However, I'm a bit disappointed that the reads always end nullish.

General thoughts

: On the other hand, the rest of Luke's ISO has been quite towny since their reappearance 281. I don't want to dwell on this as long as the Luke-marci interactions, but I have a couple comments here as well. What stuck out to me the most was Luke not going with the flow. When Luke reemerged at 281, their reads were independent from thread consensus. Multiple reads lists had been posted, it would have been really easy to simply "copy" them without having anyone really bat an eye. But Luke didn't, instead they scum-cased Somnus and placed a scum lean on BigTerp in 316. The lock-town on TTTT also doesn't benefit scum!Luke (420). As mafia, Luke would want to either
a) push for TTTT to get lynched, or
b) night-kill TTTT without having a strong connection tied to the kill.
But by putting TTTT as their highest town, scum!Luke wouldn't be able to do a) or b) without receiving suspicion. The fact that Luke town-locked TTTT without having pressure on them to do so makes me feel better about them.

Conclusion

:

I'm comfortable with putting Luke as a town read

. What Luke lacks in towniness regarding their marcistar read they make up with their other posts. Particularly if marci turns out to be mafia it will make me more confident in my Luke read. They have just had a towny thread presence in this game.

Would you null-lean Lukewarm, if marcistar flipped town?

If marcistar flips town, I'd be more cautious of Luke. Scum!Luke benefits from not committing on a read on marcistar. At the same time Luke has been towny in areas not pertaining marci. So to answer your question, yes I'd move Luke down to a town lean or null range if marcistar flips town.

Will just say this though.

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

The furtiveglance read and the marcistar read are largely independent. I thought marcistar's post on furtiveglance was the townies thing she had done up to that point and I agreed with some of the reasonings in the post. I don't see the need to do associative reads before we have a concrete alignment flip. With that being said, I'd like to revisit my scum and town leans (including furtiveglance) soon.

Are those reads independant though? If furtiveglance and marcistar are both mafia, that would mean marcistar made "the most well thought-out case in the game" against the other mafia player. Do you think that is something marcistar would do?

When I say independent, I mean that I read them independently. Yes, if marcistar flips mafia, I think that makes furtiveglance look much better. I don't think marcistar makes her first case on her scum buddy.

But

I see no reason for me to find furtiveglance scummy and then dismissing it because marci cased them.

[Mr Turtle]

I think PPP might just have some very weird turns of phrase. I can't really see them paired with Somnus. The gamesolve I have right now is Somnus/Gold.

I have zero read on Goldfish currently. Would like to hear more from them as well as Mr. Turtle who has a whole 17 posts 10 IRL days into this game. That seem absurdly low. But even then it feels like it has much more meaningful content that Somuns' 86 posts as I mentioned in my last post.

Mr. Turtle - What's with the such low post count?

I've been a bit busy recently, but this is pretty normal for me in my opinion.

Will just say this though.

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

The furtiveglance read and the marcistar read are largely independent. I thought marcistar's post on furtiveglance was the townies thing she had done up to that point and I agreed with some of the reasonings in the post. I don't see the need to do associative reads before we have a concrete alignment flip. With that being said, I'd like to revisit my scum and town leans (including furtiveglance) soon.

Are those reads independant though? If furtiveglance and marcistar are both mafia, that would mean marcistar made "the most well thought-out case in the game" against the other mafia player. Do you think that is something marcistar would do?

When I say independent, I mean that I read them independently. Yes, if marcistar flips mafia, I think that makes furtiveglance look much better. I don't think marcistar makes her first case on her scum buddy.

But

I see no reason for me to find furtiveglance scummy and then dismissing it because marci cased them.

Ahh, why not? Why would dismissing furtiveglance be a bad move? I think I would agree with you, had you not explicitly made marcistar your #1. It makes me think your reads-list is made up.
For your scum-lean of me you referenced your previous explanation for null-leaning me. Did you scum-lean me because more time had passed and nothing had changed?

It wouldn't be a bad move, but I made my reads independently from one another. Yes, if marcistar flipped scum that would've cleared furtiveglance. But why did I need to preemptively clear furtiveglance for a non-existent flip? I get you think it's weird that I scum read marcistar and said "Wow, that's a good case", but marcistar helped me see something that I hadn't seen before. #1 scum read doesn't mean 100% lock scum, even top scum reads do towny things. What makes marcistar as my #1 scum read different than marcistar as my #2 scum read? Following your logic, if you scum read someone you shouldn't agree with their reads. Why does this only apply to the top scum read?

Where did I reference my previous explanation for null-leaning you (I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean)? Could you like a post?

[Mr Turtle]

we owe Luck the courtesy to review his case on Somnus

Started working through the isos of people not in my town pile, planning to do everyone, but found scum before I finished my list

BigTerp

Did not like his entrance 101/102/108 - discussed before

Most of his iso feels empty. Like so much of it is talking about whether or not we should be talking about prior games, that it is completely overshadowing any thoughts he might have about this game - which is kinda ironic tbh.

The things that give me pause are 207 and 251 because they are exactly my reactions to those same posts [see 291 and 300 from my own iso. Like eerily similar to the point where I might have suspected him mirroring my posts if his did not come before mine lol.

Somnus

Reading his iso, his first 22 posts say nothing at all. That is a lot of posts to make, for it to say nothing.

There is a latch onto BigTerp's entrance [135 136 139 147 156 172 186 (in spoiler below)] - then more nothing posts [140 148 149 154] before a "prod vote"

This is scum.

Post 187 / Iso 34 ---- He is at prod votes, with no thoughts or reasons. Even looking at his interactions with BigTerp - no hint at thinking that BigTerp is scum making up a reason to scum read him.

Spoiler:

Sorry, hit submit with my fat thumb before I finished my thoughts.

I've got furtiveglance as a town lean, but am a bit confused with post #92. Are you claiming Town Cop there?

Somnus leaning scum is just an early gut feel.

VOTE: SOMNUS

In 92 I was joking about the tags under our usernames.

Gotcha. Although joking like that can create confusion. Who likes confusion in a game or Mafia? SCUM!! I've still got you as a town read though, for now.

Speaking of confusion, the first page or two had a lot of talk about a previous game or 2. Seems like a few of you were already in a game together, which is fine. But talk that like, again, is prime for causing confusion. Further cements my thoughts (scum lean) on Somnus and raises my eyebrow towards TTTT.

Welcome but like...this is such a weird post. I pointed out in my first post that there were a lot of players from newbie 2088 in this game. Then furtive and TTTT very briefly asked about my other game I played on here in which I was scum. I guess in your world I should have just ignored their questions?

Sorry, hit submit with my fat thumb before I finished my thoughts.

I've got furtiveglance as a town lean, but am a bit confused with post #92. Are you claiming Town Cop there?

Somnus leaning scum is just an early gut feel.

VOTE: SOMNUS

He made a joke about being mafia role cop and you’re asking if he hard claimed town cop? Am I reading this correctly? I’m having a hard time believing you legit misread things in your catch-up this much.

Yeah. Like I’m cool with the vote on me, but the logic used behind it, as well as the immediate town-read on furtive (not a shot at furtive, btw) for the exact same thing is absurd. Not to mention thinking that furtive hard-claimed town cop less than 24 hours into the game after jokingly stating he was mafia role cop. Enough about power roles. This is a bad idea.

Hard hard disagree. Stuff like that (in the first two pages, no less when like 4 people out of 9 were here) helps sort people’s experience/play style. That’s the opposite of confusion. You scum-read me for it but gave the two players asking questions about previous games a null and/or townread for it.

Hard hard disagree. Stuff like that (in the first two pages, no less when like 4 people out of 9 were here) helps sort people’s experience/play style. That’s the opposite of confusion. You scum-read me for it but gave the two players asking questions about previous games a null and/or townread for it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Discussing previous games is unproductive, IMO. Understanding players experience level is a different story and something that is helpful. No need to discuss how someone played previously as Mafia, or vanilla town, etc. though.

So TTTT and furtive get a scum-lean for asking me about my previous scum-game then, correct? And I'd get a town-read if I ignored their questions and told them it wasn't productive? Like...lol what even is this logic.

Hoping to hear more from lukewarm, Mr Turtle, and Pimpest (as well as for marcistar to join) so I have a complete roster to make initial reads of.

Hard hard disagree. Stuff like that (in the first two pages, no less when like 4 people out of 9 were here) helps sort people’s experience/play style. That’s the opposite of confusion. You scum-read me for it but gave the two players asking questions about previous games a null and/or townread for it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Discussing previous games is unproductive, IMO. Understanding players experience level is a different story and something that is helpful. No need to discuss how someone played previously as Mafia, or vanilla town, etc. though.

So TTTT and furtive get a scum-lean for asking me about my previous scum-game then, correct? And I'd get a town-read if I ignored their questions and told them it wasn't productive? Like...lol what even is this logic.

It was something to get things moving for me early day one. It just seemed odd, as I'm not used to so much discussion about previous games, especially when it directly effects the current game. Maybe it's just that things have changed in that respect since I last played. But especially for a newbie game, I don't see how it's productive. And I certainly am not going to dig back through previous games to try and gain Intel.

That's fine if you choose not to dig through people's ISOs from previous games.

You know what else gets things moving early in Day 1? Discussing people's experience/play-style.

Lukewarm, if you think I'm playing differently it could be because this is a new game. The first 100 posts had a more jokey/relaxed feel. You should also bear in mind that this is my second game on the site so my playstyle is not yet formed.

Exactly. There were 4 of us here (5 if you include Luke's 1 post) when the game started and we were mostly joking around, as well as me answering questions about the only other game I've played on-site. So I don't understand this notion that I haven't said anything game-related. Everything I've said after the first 12 hours after the game started has been game-related.

Hilariously, asking those questions apparently got you town-read, but answering them got me scum-read because logic.

BigTerp's entrance is "weird" - not scummy.

Like I’m cool with the vote on me, but the logic used behind it, as well as the immediate town-read on furtive (not a shot at furtive, btw) for the exact same thing is absurd

The "logic used behind" the vote on him is "absurd" but never questioned as scummy / fake.

His whole reaction feels more like scum who thinks they are catching flak for rediculous reasons, then a townie trying to sort through to determine BigTerp's alignment.

-----

I will keep doing the other people to give a full reads list, but I am happy with

VOTE: Somnus

just wanna remind everyone that my dead BFF said this...

@marci
is 2061 your only Newbie scumgame?

you two played as a hydra in a game that ended barely a month ago
so that's one reason I don't love the mutual null reads

I am ready to town lock TTTT all the way to Elo (where obviously he should be reconsidered if he is alive at that point) for this.

I never see this much meta work from Scum unless they are desperate. There is no reason for Scum TTTT to be digging through Marci's past scum games here, or whatever he did to find our hydra game either.

Ok, well Lukewarm townread Turtle

he also ended the day talking about how you were scumslipping

So we should sheep Luke when it's directly beneficial to us and not sheep Luke when it goes against our agenda? How does that work? I don't like that only some of Luke's posts apply because you say so.

Mod edit: removed the spoiler tags to fix the formatting of the post.

[Mr Turtle]

I literally have no idea what happened to the formatting.

[Mr Turtle]

this Turtle post comes after an absence of pages and pages with nothing from him
and it's a long post about something that nobody in the game at the time cares about
totally irrelevant to the E-1 on marci or anything else happening

Spoiler:

I've decided to ISO Lukewarm to see if I was able to move them out of my null range.

Regarding marcistar

: During the first twenty four hours of the game, Lukewarm pretty much waits for her to show up (11, 77 & 157) with the reasoning that she is "easiest to read in the very start of the game, before she has found her footing". What I don't like about this is that they barely do anything and it feels as though they are hiding behind said reasoning to not do anything. Having someone to meta read at the beginning of the game makes it easier to "get into" the game so to speak, but it's also an easy way for scum to look busy. Then Luke has a bit of a back and forth of friendly banter with marcistar (160 & 164) and paired with their hyper-focus regarding their interactions with her (162 & 282), I deem them unlikely to be mafia partners. Note that when 164 was posted, 7 out of 10 posts in Luke's ISO had explicitly mentioned, quoted or been about marcistar. Later, Luke starts defending marcistar based on meta reads (286 & 299), claiming that most of her lack of vote and joke scumfession were NAI. In 294 they post their first concrete read on marcistar as "null scum". To me, this progression seems a bit messy, which I rate as being more likely towny than not. In 313, Luke voices his distaste with the E-1 vote, something which I also see as towny. They then make a non-read on marci by saying that they "want to hold off comitting to a read on her" and place them in their null range (317 & 318). Furthermore, Luke cements marcistar's null position by defending their retracted vote and subtly defending her (347, 348 & 352). I like Luke trying to slow the thread down on the marcistar wagon, it doesn't strike me as benefiting the mafia. 396, 399 & 400 are used to defend marci once again based on their scum reads, however Luke backtracks a bit by saying "I don't think that this is a slam dunk Marci is town case". I am not overjoyed by the hedginess on marcistar since a lot of Luke's posts have been used defending her. The hedginess is continued in 412, the posts 413, 414, 415 & 419 are meta dives into marci's past games, but Luke admits that he doesn't have any reliable meta tells and thus marcistar stays in the null range.

Conclusion

: Lukewarm spends a lot of time and posts semi-defending marcistar by dismissing many reasons for scum reading her as NAI while staying null throughout the entire game (minus the occasional "maybe town" or "maybe scum" comment). What makes me dislike the null read especially is the fact that I count 25-30 posts made that more or less directly have to do with marci in a 70 post ISO. With that being said, I don't think that Luke can be mafia if marcistar is. No-one enters the thread and spends a third of their posts on their scum buddy. Overall, I rate Luke's interactions with marci as lean town for them. If marci is town, I'm going to scrutinize Luke some more. Outside of the associative reads, I understand that Luke latches on to the player they best know to post about. This is something I would do as well. However, I'm a bit disappointed that the reads always end nullish.

General thoughts

: On the other hand, the rest of Luke's ISO has been quite towny since their reappearance 281. I don't want to dwell on this as long as the Luke-marci interactions, but I have a couple comments here as well. What stuck out to me the most was Luke not going with the flow. When Luke reemerged at 281, their reads were independent from thread consensus. Multiple reads lists had been posted, it would have been really easy to simply "copy" them without having anyone really bat an eye. But Luke didn't, instead they scum-cased Somnus and placed a scum lean on BigTerp in 316. The lock-town on TTTT also doesn't benefit scum!Luke (420). As mafia, Luke would want to either
a) push for TTTT to get lynched, or
b) night-kill TTTT without having a strong connection tied to the kill.
But by putting TTTT as their highest town, scum!Luke wouldn't be able to do a) or b) without receiving suspicion. The fact that Luke town-locked TTTT without having pressure on them to do so makes me feel better about them.

Conclusion

:

I'm comfortable with putting Luke as a town read

. What Luke lacks in towniness regarding their marcistar read they make up with their other posts. Particularly if marci turns out to be mafia it will make me more confident in my Luke read. They have just had a towny thread presence in this game.

That post was for me. I set out to sort my Luke null read and I conclusively did so. Dunno why you think it's "totally irrelevant" since I spend a good chunk of it directly speaking how this relates to marcistar. I felt I owed the thread something more substantial after an absence. Would you have preferred for me to come with a one liner?

sorry for all the posts tonight
I prefer a post for each idea/thought/reaction
rather than giant mega posts
makes it easier to follow and respond to

It really doesn't. A part of me dies every time I see four new unread pages. Wall posts are easier for ISOing and just make for a cleaner thread.

[Mr Turtle]

Will just say this though.

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

The furtiveglance read and the marcistar read are largely independent. I thought marcistar's post on furtiveglance was the townies thing she had done up to that point and I agreed with some of the reasonings in the post. I don't see the need to do associative reads before we have a concrete alignment flip. With that being said, I'd like to revisit my scum and town leans (including furtiveglance) soon.

Are those reads independant though? If furtiveglance and marcistar are both mafia, that would mean marcistar made "the most well thought-out case in the game" against the other mafia player. Do you think that is something marcistar would do?

When I say independent, I mean that I read them independently. Yes, if marcistar flips mafia, I think that makes furtiveglance look much better. I don't think marcistar makes her first case on her scum buddy.

But

I see no reason for me to find furtiveglance scummy and then dismissing it because marci cased them.

Ahh, why not? Why would dismissing furtiveglance be a bad move? I think I would agree with you, had you not explicitly made marcistar your #1. It makes me think your reads-list is made up.
For your scum-lean of me you referenced your previous explanation for null-leaning me. Did you scum-lean me because more time had passed and nothing had changed?

It wouldn't be a bad move, but I made my reads independently from one another. Yes, if marcistar flipped scum that would've cleared furtiveglance. But why did I need to preemptively clear furtiveglance for a non-existent flip? I get you think it's weird that I scum read marcistar and said "Wow, that's a good case", but marcistar helped me see something that I hadn't seen before. #1 scum read doesn't mean 100% lock scum, even top scum reads do towny things. What makes marcistar as my #1 scum read different than marcistar as my #2 scum read? Following your logic, if you scum read someone you shouldn't agree with their reads. Why does this only apply to the top scum read?

Where did I reference my previous explanation for null-leaning you (I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean)? Could you like a post?

To answer your last question. In 276 you write "explained above", which I assume refers to 228. As for the rest, I'll try to justify it best I can.

1) You desribed marcistar ISO #3 post as the most well thought-out post this game. I take it this means the post is towny.
2) This would mean you #1 scum-leaned marcistar despite that post. Nothing wrong with that necessarily.
3) You possibly found your #1 significantly more scummy than your #2. To me this would mean you would find it more significant, if #1 made a really towny post scum-leaning #2, than the other way around.
4) So I feel like it would be natural to reconsider furtiveglance, since why would your #1 make such a towny post against furtiveglance, if they're a pair?

Anyway, I got what I wanted out of this conversation. Feel free to respond. As you can see, we would also like to hear your thoughts on the game right now.

Ah, in 228 I had outlined reasons for my scum reads. In my full reads list in 276 I just referenced those.

My case on furtiveglance was more than the marcistar post, by the way. If it was only for the marcistar post, I probably wouldn't have scum-leaned him. But I found him scummy for other reasons as well as the time. However, I still insist that I wasn't looking for "who goes together as a scum pair" or "who doesn't go together as a scum pair". I just looked at who's scummy in a vacuum, no pairs. Perhaps this is a difference of opinion between us two.

[Mr Turtle]

I posted his thoughts regardless of whether or not I agree with them

I didn't see you quote any posts you didn't agree with, but perhaps I missed it.

[Mr Turtle]

Marci was on the chopping block and you spent all that effort posting about the one of towniest player's read on the player who was being waggoned

My thoughts on marci were already clear, no? And prior to my post Luke wasn't "one of the towniest players". He was null to me. I do believe it was important to delve into a Luke-marci joint read due to their meta. Had one of them been scum, I'd expect that to be the most obvious place to see it.

[Mr Turtle]

I posted his thoughts regardless of whether or not I agree with them

I didn't see you quote any posts you didn't agree with, but perhaps I missed it.

I'm not pushing for a Somnus or BigTerp elim
those were his two scumreads in that big post I quoted

I have no doubt that you weren't pushing for a BigTerp elimination, however I read "we owe Luck the courtesy to review his case on Somnus" as "Somnus should be considered as a viable wagon". Mayhaps I just read that wrong.

[Mr Turtle]

Turtle
you've written so many words
but I have no idea who you think is scum

Pedit: I mean Luke was one of the towniest players according to the reads of the other players in the game

I don't remember a single post by Goldie, so probably scum. PPP null-scum. Somnus could go either way. Same with furtiveglance. I'm not committed to any of these reads before I read through ISOs.

[Mr Turtle]

I don't remember a single post by Goldie, so probably scum.

Could you explain this further for me please. How does you not remembering any of my posts make you think I'm scum? Please remember the fact that I replaced into this game so I don't have as many posts as other players because I haven't been in the thread as long.

Unmemorable posts make it seem that you are trying to fly under the radar. It doesn't have to do with the quantity of posts per se.

[Mr Turtle]

Turtle is coasting
hasn't actually pushed anyone
isn't trying to sort anyone
I need somebody, anybody, who disagrees with me to tell me why I'm wrong

I prefer to wait to vote until I've ISOd someone.

I'll be here more on the weekend, so if you'll wait for that long that would be nice.

[Mr Turtle]

Goldfish - A slot that is incredibly hedgy. I don't like 571 & 585. The first has seemingly random one-liners such as "this post freaks me out" or "I find this very interesting". Why is this progressing the game?
While ("

I don't want to take to strong a stance because I think I'm possibly wrong and I don't want to throw the game.

") not wanting to throw the game is admirable, none of their stances have been "too strong". The stance they follow up with is literally "let's eliminate the leading wagon and most widely scum-read player marcistar" with an added "(but I do think she is scum)" to assure us that they aren't trying to eliminate one of their town-reads.

They also keep on apologizing and not committing "(sorry I know you didn't want a wall of text)", "Tentative reads (I don't trust all these yet)" & "so here is my explaining (and I get this sounds bad)". This just feels so awkward. "I know this looks bad but I'm going to put my vote back on Marci" -> the constant focus on "this sounds/looks bad" makes me believe that they're hyper-focusing on their image and how they need to appear towny.

577 feels eh. Especially when followed by 579. It's as if they're trying to prove "I'm not scum, watch me vote the scummiest player!".

The reads list in 583 is okay. It's nothing ground-breaking or alignment-indicative either way. I don't blame them, they subbed into end of day. But nothing new, still the same hedginess and whatever "

I visualise him as Watson from the BBC Sherlock TV show because of the profile pic, which biases me toward thinking he is town.

" is.

I get that they subbed into a difficult position, but I feel like this is more likely newb!scum than newb!town. Newb!town knows that they are 100% town and while not confident in their reads, they generally seem less worried and awkward than Goldfish here. To me this looks like Goldfish very badly wanted to get on people's good side by being apolegetic and going with the flow.

Sadly, it's late. I'll continue their ISO as soon as I can. I didn't make it past post #10 of their ISO yet, so maybe something changes. But until then VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the self-conscious entrance.

[Mr Turtle]

I did this for you, TTTT. Enjoy.

[Mr Turtle]

Goldfish - A slot that is incredibly hedgy. I don't like 571 & 585. The first has seemingly random one-liners such as "this post freaks me out" or "I find this very interesting". Why is this progressing the game?
While ("

I don't want to take to strong a stance because I think I'm possibly wrong and I don't want to throw the game.

") not wanting to throw the game is admirable, none of their stances have been "too strong". The stance they follow up with is literally "let's eliminate the leading wagon and most widely scum-read player marcistar" with an added "(but I do think she is scum)" to assure us that they aren't trying to eliminate one of their town-reads.

They also keep on apologizing and not committing "(sorry I know you didn't want a wall of text)", "Tentative reads (I don't trust all these yet)" & "so here is my explaining (and I get this sounds bad)". This just feels so awkward. "I know this looks bad but I'm going to put my vote back on Marci" -> the constant focus on "this sounds/looks bad" makes me believe that they're hyper-focusing on their image and how they need to appear towny.

577 feels eh. Especially when followed by 579. It's as if they're trying to prove "I'm not scum, watch me vote the scummiest player!".

The reads list in 583 is okay. It's nothing ground-breaking or alignment-indicative either way. I don't blame them, they subbed into end of day. But nothing new, still the same hedginess and whatever "

I visualise him as Watson from the BBC Sherlock TV show because of the profile pic, which biases me toward thinking he is town.

" is.

I get that they subbed into a difficult position, but I feel like this is more likely newb!scum than newb!town. Newb!town knows that they are 100% town and while not confident in their reads, they generally seem less worried and awkward than Goldfish here. To me this looks like Goldfish very badly wanted to get on people's good side by being apolegetic and going with the flow.

Sadly, it's late. I'll continue their ISO as soon as I can. I didn't make it past post #10 of their ISO yet, so maybe something changes. But until then VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the self-conscious entrance.

Goldfish, a continuation - I find posts 587 & 590 fine. I like them thinking outside the box, I dislike the hedginess. Albeit, I really don't think Somnus/PPP are a thing. 606 & 672 is also slightly +town.

765 and 766 are overly apologetic. There's a lot of "sorry for not doing this" instead of... doing it. I don't really like this.

"

I agree that people have been too quick to toweread Mr Turtle,

" from 771 (and 772). You townread me in your eighth post (583) when I was somewhat town-read by the thread. Now you write this after TTTT votes me. I feel like you're just copying the thread as opposed to come with your own reasons. There's nothing wrong with scum-reading me, but it feels ungenuine. I find myself agreeing with furtive's 793.
I just noticed that furtiveglance already covered 795 -> I like Goldie's response 797, I like the honesty. I still don't like the sheeping of TTTT. They say that my limited posting isn't the only thing they find suspicious, yet I can't find what else the reason is. There have been two flips, yes. How and why does this relate to your read on me? Without reasons it just seems like you're pocketing or sheeping TTTT.

796 "

Last time I voted someone (and I wasn't 100% sure) they turned out to be town and I don't want a repeat of that

." feels non-committing. They have yet to vote and as TTTT pointed out, that's not helping town. "I don't want to vote" is more anti-town than following your reads and voting (even if they then fliptown). So yeah, not really thrilled about that.

In this latter part of the ISO, Goldfish feels a bit more natural and less awkward/stiff in the thread. Some posts they make I actually find good. I'm not entirely convinced, though. They haven't really committed to much. To apply TTTT's opinion on me to Goldfish, they seem to be coasting. I would like to see a vote and a bit more of your thoughts, maybe some pushes.

[Mr Turtle]

Other thoughts I have on nullish players:

PPP - First and foremost never mafia with Somnus. Not really a fan of posts such as 447. One thing I noticed was their persistence, leading to large quote conversations (see 817 or 879). I feel like they're quite nit-picky, something which I have a hard time reading. It's +town to pick up on things others missed, however I feel like it's +scum to push people for smaller, details. Overall I see it as towny. Additionally, PPP's playstyle seems to be centered around asking many questions. While I see nothing wrong with this, I'm wary of it as it is an easy way for mafia to look busy. Essentially, I wouldn't be opposed to get a more analytical/reads list post from then. Doesn't have to be a wall post, but just to see where their head is at. Null-scum.

One last thing: You have said you need to take breaks from this forum/you've spend too much time on it at least twice this far. Do you mean that you feel too invested in the game, or what? (493 + 894) This isn't alignment-indicative, I'm just wondering why/if there's anything we can do to stop it.

Somnus - Had a very joke-y entrance into the game. Somnus, similarly to PPP, seems to enjoy latching on certain posts and taking a while before letting go (see BigTerp's entrance, PPP). Nothing wrong with that, per se, however scum will try to push where they can. He feels like an aggressive player in general, something which can be a great asset for town if town, but can also be detrimental if mafia. I really enjoyed 471, it reads as unfiltered thoughts. Somnus is generally not afraid to disagree with consensus (similar to Luke) and has attracted a fair share of attention on him. This is +town in my books. 492 too.

Admittedly, 676 is quite bad. "

Hell, even if you're mafia, you're at least more engaged in things now than you were early on.

" - if mafia is more engaged that is worse for town. Feels like a weird thing to say. 677 & 678 too, to some extent. I've seen town being over-defensive, but here Somnus came out D2 with a defense lined up, +scum. 798 and the push against furtive is something I feel that is consistent and again, Somnus isn't trying to go with the flow. Re: 844 why don't you think that mafia couldn't have been off of marci? Overall, I liked their D1 better than D2.

@Somnus what ever happened to 691? I'd be interested to hear your reads/thoughts again. Null until then.

I was going to cover furtive in this post as well, but I feel like that should go in a separate post that I'll get to later tonight.

[Mr Turtle]

we should just elim Goldie now
and save another newbie from having to replace into that cursed slot
only half joking

I don't think I've ever seen more than two separate players in one slot before this game, let alone potentially four.