Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[Somnus]

'Sup, nerds? It's like a Newbie 2088 reunion episode in here. Gross.

[Somnus]

I know. I read through the game from the start as it was ongoing. Glad you came back.

[Somnus]

Correct. But I've left my murderous ways behind. Like yeah, I may have put a bullet in the heads of 6 people a while back, but I'm a changed man these days.

[Somnus]

Hilariously, the only townie I didn't have a hand in killing in that game was Malcolm.

[Somnus]

You and I are basically conftown. If I know math, WHICH I DON'T, nobody rolls maf two games in a row in NewD3. You and I are practically confirmed ICs. Game is practically solved already.

[Somnus]

VOTE: Alianna
this is more than random

Why?

[Somnus]

50 votes cast the entire game. Zero on me.

[Somnus]

Which means now that I'm town, I'm probably going to have all kinds of FOS pointed at me.

[Somnus]

VOTE: somnus

now you can't say that you haven't been voted

About damn time. 53 pages last game and everyone's votes avoided me like the plague. Was starting to think I smelled.

[Somnus]

Alianna
do you mind getting a profile pic?
it's be easier to follow the game if we have an image to tie to your posts

Done.

Much appreciated, btw.

Welcome.

[Somnus]

Why did I pick the most incriminating picture I have?

ROFL. There's no way I'm voting for this person in the first 10 page.

[Somnus]

If you want to see scum!Somnus and what cautious and careful looks like, pull up my ISO from newbie 2087.

[Somnus]

Wait, how is that a duck? I don't see a beak.

You know what also doesn't have a beak? Toilet paper.

[Somnus]

Welcome, Pimpest. I’m fighting the urge to call you PP with every ounce of strength I have.

I’ve heard of Epic Mafia but never tried it. It’s chat-based, from my understanding. Is this your first time trying forum mafia?

[Somnus]

Welcome, Turtle. Glad you came out of your shell.

Get it? Do you guys get it?

Ok anyway. I’ll be back later today.

[Somnus]

It means you’re maf.

[Somnus]

Post count.

0- watcher
1- ninja
2- townie
100- goon
1000- mafia scum
5000- jack of all trades
10,000- survivor

[Somnus]

I don’t latch onto people’s opening posts as alignment indicative either. Seems inaccurate far too often. Never felt LAMIST intros indicate scum.

[Somnus]

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

[Somnus]

Lamist = Look at me I’m so town

[Somnus]

Can’t believe I didn’t get my own private thread just because I rolled bulletproof serial killer this time. Ah well.

[Somnus]

I’m going to be agitated and irrational if pimpest doesn’t have an avatar by the time I return this evening.

Ok so not really but like...please get one.

[Somnus]

Sorry, hit submit with my fat thumb before I finished my thoughts.

I've got furtiveglance as a town lean, but am a bit confused with post #92. Are you claiming Town Cop there?

Somnus leaning scum is just an early gut feel.

VOTE: SOMNUS

In 92 I was joking about the tags under our usernames.

Gotcha. Although joking like that can create confusion. Who likes confusion in a game or Mafia? SCUM!! I've still got you as a town read though, for now.

Speaking of confusion, the first page or two had a lot of talk about a previous game or 2. Seems like a few of you were already in a game together, which is fine. But talk that like, again, is prime for causing confusion. Further cements my thoughts (scum lean) on Somnus and raises my eyebrow towards TTTT.

Welcome but like...this is such a weird post. I pointed out in my first post that there were a lot of players from newbie 2088 in this game. Then furtive and TTTT very briefly asked about my other game I played on here in which I was scum. I guess in your world I should have just ignored their questions?

[Somnus]

Sorry, hit submit with my fat thumb before I finished my thoughts.

I've got furtiveglance as a town lean, but am a bit confused with post #92. Are you claiming Town Cop there?

Somnus leaning scum is just an early gut feel.

VOTE: SOMNUS

He made a joke about being mafia role cop and you’re asking if he hard claimed town cop? Am I reading this correctly? I’m having a hard time believing you legit misread things in your catch-up this much.

[Somnus]

Yeah. Like I’m cool with the vote on me, but the logic used behind it, as well as the immediate town-read on furtive (not a shot at furtive, btw) for the exact same thing is absurd. Not to mention thinking that furtive hard-claimed town cop less than 24 hours into the game after jokingly stating he was mafia role cop. Enough about power roles. This is a bad idea.

[Somnus]

Hoping to hear more from lukewarm, Mr Turtle, and Pimpest (as well as for marcistar to join) so I have a complete roster to make initial reads of.

[Somnus]

Hard hard disagree. Stuff like that (in the first two pages, no less when like 4 people out of 9 were here) helps sort people’s experience/play style. That’s the opposite of confusion. You scum-read me for it but gave the two players asking questions about previous games a null and/or townread for it.

[Somnus]

If anything, I would have liked to hear MORE about people’s experiences as both town and scum.

[Somnus]

If I'm not mistaken, the difference is that a cop investigates people to learn their alignment (pro-town or anti-town) but not their role, while a rolecop learns their role (doctor, tracker, etc.,) but not their alignment (so VT and Goon both give a Vanilla result).

This is correct.

[Somnus]

Yes, I'm curious as well. Whats furtiveglances experience like?

Hey, Marci. Welcome.

[Somnus]

Hard hard disagree. Stuff like that (in the first two pages, no less when like 4 people out of 9 were here) helps sort people’s experience/play style. That’s the opposite of confusion. You scum-read me for it but gave the two players asking questions about previous games a null and/or townread for it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Discussing previous games is unproductive, IMO. Understanding players experience level is a different story and something that is helpful. No need to discuss how someone played previously as Mafia, or vanilla town, etc. though.

So TTTT and furtive get a scum-lean for asking me about my previous scum-game then, correct? And I'd get a town-read if I ignored their questions and told them it wasn't productive? Like...lol what even is this logic.

[Somnus]

Yes, I'm curious as well. Whats furtiveglances experience like?

Hey, Marci. Welcome.

Hi, thank you.
I'm still reading right now, and quoting things. But do you have any guesses why I asked specifically about furtiveglance?

I'm guessing it has to do with the joking scum-claims? Curious where you're going with this.

[Somnus]

Hoping to hear more from lukewarm, Mr Turtle, and Pimpest (as well as for marcistar to join) so I have a complete roster to make initial reads of.

Hard hard disagree. Stuff like that (in the first two pages, no less when like 4 people out of 9 were here) helps sort people’s experience/play style. That’s the opposite of confusion. You scum-read me for it but gave the two players asking questions about previous games a null and/or townread for it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Discussing previous games is unproductive, IMO. Understanding players experience level is a different story and something that is helpful. No need to discuss how someone played previously as Mafia, or vanilla town, etc. though.

So TTTT and furtive get a scum-lean for asking me about my previous scum-game then, correct? And I'd get a town-read if I ignored their questions and told them it wasn't productive? Like...lol what even is this logic.

It was something to get things moving for me early day one. It just seemed odd, as I'm not used to so much discussion about previous games, especially when it directly effects the current game. Maybe it's just that things have changed in that respect since I last played. But especially for a newbie game, I don't see how it's productive. And I certainly am not going to dig back through previous games to try and gain Intel.

That's fine if you choose not to dig through people's ISOs from previous games.

You know what else gets things moving early in Day 1? Discussing people's experience/play-style.

[Somnus]

Lukewarm, if you think I'm playing differently it could be because this is a new game. The first 100 posts had a more jokey/relaxed feel. You should also bear in mind that this is my second game on the site so my playstyle is not yet formed.

Exactly. There were 4 of us here (5 if you include Luke's 1 post) when the game started and we were mostly joking around, as well as me answering questions about the only other game I've played on-site. So I don't understand this notion that I haven't said anything game-related. Everything I've said after the first 12 hours after the game started has been game-related.

Hilariously, asking those questions apparently got you town-read, but answering them got me scum-read because logic.

[Somnus]

Prod vote to get Pimpest active in the game.

VOTE: PimpestPlay

[Somnus]

No...I didn’t say that at all. Furtive did. You’ve either misread the game so far beyond what I thought anyone was capable of or you’re giving the laziest push as scum I’ve ever seen. I don’t care about the vote. Keep your vote on me. You explained it and stuck to your faulty logic and doubled-down.

[Somnus]

[quote="In post 178, marcistar"
I think you might be town B)

You're be correct.

Was your post "no, r u?" when asked if you were town just a joke post?[/quote]

I...i can’t with this. Someone else deal with this.

[Somnus]

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

I knew for sure it wasn't your role, don't worry about that (I'm Rolecop not Goon)

Imagine saying that, then winning the game as an actual mafia rolecop. I don't have much experience, so I don't believe I can read people on day 1. Can't say causing chaos on day 1 makes someone scum, since that day matters the least. From where I'm standing everyone is just tying themselves into a knot. Guess I'll vote, just because everyone else is.

VOTE: Somnus

This is what we call an OMGUS vote. I’m glad my prof vote at least brought you out from zero contributions.
Interestingly, just like BigTerp, he  “mistakenly” accused me of saying what Furtive actually said.

[Somnus]

*Prod vote

[Somnus]

I townread Alianna.

I do too. I know joke posts can come from either alignment, but your first two pages of posts are very unlikely to come from newbie scum. You’ve been very transparent.

[Somnus]

@lukewarm

I know you were anxiously waiting for Marci to join the game so you could get an early read on her. What are your initial thoughts?

[Somnus]

UNVOTE:

Curious as to the reason for the unvote though. Was furtive’s post convincing to you?

[Somnus]

Somnus - Similar reasons to Mr Turtle.

Somnus didn't make the posts Mr Turtle made - do you mean gut feeling again?

Mostly.

Beware, this player is a known bamboozler as mafia.

With the way this game has gone, I’m going to be accused of calling myself a bamboozler in this post.

[Somnus]

Well done. I legit LOL’ed.

[Somnus]

Alright alright. I got my pissy jab in. I don’t want to get mean.

[Somnus]

@TTTT

Was going to post this earlier but it's a nightmare to do on mobile.

[Somnus]

Current Reads List. Note that this isn't a straight 1-8 ranking, but rather sorted into three groups.

Town-lean

Alianna: I mentioned this before, but while people have different styles of play regardless of experience or alignment, some of the playful posts (particularly in the first few pages) seem extremely unlikely to come from newbie scum. In my only other game on the site, I was mafia and while I was universally town-read for being the analytical note-taker, I was also fairly stiff and careful on Days 1 and 2. That's not to say that all newbie scum would fit into that box, but I'm finding Alianna to be legit, relaxed, and townie. There's pretty much no world where I could validate voting for her today.

Mr Turtle: Pretty much straight and to the point trying to solve the game. Doesn't seem opportunistic, as he voted for Marci before Marci had any momentum on her at all. Laid out his scum-reads nicely in 228. The only trend I'm not a huge fan of in some of his posts is excusing a lot of questionable posts as, "well, they're probably just new to the game."

Null-lean

Lukewarm: He was pretty inactive until Monday evening and most of his posts for the first day or two revolved around Marci, even well before Marci had entered the game. Most of his focus in this game has been on the players he is familiar with (Marcistar, furtiveglance, and TTTT). I'm concerned that he may have a blind-spot when it comes to furtive and just doesn't know how to read him. Agree with his read on Turtle. Same thoughts as myself about 291, but a few other players have already touched upon it.

I'm going to lump in a bit of a defence to his accusations of me here. In 284, acknowledges that furtive was correct that the game had a jokey/relaxed feeling early on, yet luke is the 2nd person to scum-read me for it and give everyone else a pass. When the game started at midnight and it was just myself, furtive, TTTT, and Alianna here, yes, we joked around a bit and had fun. I'm never going to apologize for that, nor am I going to apologize for answering questions posed by furtive and TTTT about my playing experience on here (all of 1 game). Playing in my first game as town on here, I've been as transparent as possible and am more than happy to answer any questions about me, including my game-history. But when another player enters the game and immediately scum-reads me for answering questions about my experience and having fun before the game had really started, while town-reading or null-reading the players asking the questions, as well as attributing NAI things furtive said to me, you better believe I'm going to defend myself.

furtiveglance: Not game-related, but I genuinely do enjoy having furtive in the game and having read through Newbie 2088 as it was ongoing, I was pretty bummed out when he said he wouldn't be playing again. I'm glad he didn't quit the site. Anyway...

Some good things and some bad things in his ISO from my POV. I like the jokey attitude. Mostly NAI. Admittedly, part of my town-read of Alianna is for a similar approach, but as I said, I think that approach would be very unlikely to come from someone playing their first game as scum. Furtive wasn't scum in his first game, so I can't apply the exact same reasoning here. Not a fan of voting for BigTerp in post 97 as soon as he replaced in, but I guess I can treat it as an RVS vote? I'm hardly the first person to comment on 110, but I REALLY didn't like this post, even though I understand the history behind it. I don't like the defeatist follow-up in 117. It pings me as "Oh well, Day 1 doesn't really matter." I don't know how he hard town-read Mr Turtle after 3 posts in 131, 1 of which was an RVS vote for TTTT. How was PimpestPlay "blendy" with their 3 posts as well, 0 of which had anything at the time other than an intro? (Note: not advancing the game in someone's first 3 posts is NOT a scum-tell). I'm kind of amazed how many people read BigTerp's faulty logic early on as "clueless townie" (No offense, Terp) instead of pushing on it. This can be seen in 184 from furtive. I like him asking for people to post their readslists in 232. Kind of agree with 303 regarding TTTT.

Marcistar: I'm not too sure what to make of Marcistar. This is one of those situations where I'm probably going to have to do a little bit of meta-scanning tomorrow to get a feel for what they're usually like in games as either alignment. As far as I can tell, luke is the only one who has experience playing with her. Again, joke posts don't = scum. Agree with some of 169. I don't see anything weird about Pimpest mentioning he has played elsewhere, especially in his first two posts. Agree that talking about playing experience at the start of a game is a natural ice-breaker to get the game moving. Not sure how furtive asking about the title under username's is in any way a slip?

TTTT: He's pushed the game along, which I like, and not to sound like a broken record, but I like that he was digging early on in regards to my history on the site. He and I reached drastically different conclusions about Alianna in the first few pages, although he has since eventually unvoted her and agreed with me. I'm going to have a hard time explaining this, but I feel like this is similar to his recent scum-game with MAYBE a slight difference in play? Just a gut feel. Agree with him pushing furtive in 112, 115, 116, and 119 in regards to defending any wagon. Asks furtive if he has anything to say about TTTT's one newbie town-loss and even provides the link to the game, but then later on in 245 doesn't like that furtive wanted to see the game? I saw this act (maybe not an act) before in newbie 2088 about pushing a wagon and then making sure that no one hammers. Could come across as a bit LAMIST but I also get that it's a newbie game. I think 327 is at least a possibility about an absent scum-partner.

Scum-lean

BigTerp: I'm going to try not to repeat myself very much here. I'm still a little amazed by how many people just chalked up BigTerp misreading the entire game up to his entrance as "newbie town" and the fact that he scum-read me for answering people's questions about my playing history while town-reading the people who asked such questions...in the first 2 pages of the game, no less. I was then mistaken for furtive. I can't keep repeating this further, but I didn't have a problem with you voting for me in your opening post. If it had been an RVS post to enter the game with, there wouldn't be an issue. The reasoning behind your scum-read of me has been pretty much exclusively based on either A.) Things other people said that you "accidentally" attributed to me or B.) Answering questions people presented to me. That's either a series of disasterous blunders by town or trying to push a wagon immediately on dishonest pretenses. I still don't know which, as I said in post 191 (I feel like luke missed this post in his assessment of me, btw?). Moving on from all of that though, I appreciae the readslist in 233, even if several of my reads are drastically different from his. I was thinking the same thing about his reaction to TTTT's comments on Mr Turtle's 228 (in post 251). Mostly agree with the remainder of his posts from Monday. Very hard disagree with his take on his read-list on Alianna and in 277 though.

PimpestPlay: Not much to say. Barely any posts. I put a prod vote on him to get him involved when he had 3 "intro posts", so to speak. After the reaction to it, it's no longer a prod vote and I'm currently happy with it. Seemed to imply that I was the one who jokingly claimed rolecop (Notice there has been a weird pattern in this game of attributing things that furtive has said as things Somnus has said). The rest of 201 is pretty bad too. No reads, no attempts to make any solves or question anyone...just a straight-up vote because "everyone else is". As it stands, I don't want this player anywhere near eLo (again, no offense personally. This is strictly game-related). Post 255 at least comes across as an attempt to make a read of the game but the actual content in it is just...ick. Why the unvote of me in 256?

[Somnus]

Will just say this, since we are at E1.

Assuming me and furtiveglance are town (which is atleast half true, you guys).
Assuming me and furtiveglance are reluctant to lynch day 1, as we both have expressed.
Assuming a day 1 scum elimination would be so catastrophic for mafia, that scum would never vote scum (seems reasonable).

Then a day 1 lynch is as likely to be scum as all remaining 5 town voting the same person. Which seems unlikely to me.

Hey, Pimpest. Just some thoughts if you're still here:

1.) I don't think very many people are assuming both of you are town though, or at least not town-read.

2.) In my only other game on here, I was mafia and I was the most reluctant person to eliminate someone on Day 1. I ended up being the hammering vote with 24 hours before the deadline.

3.) I think they would if there were other options that were more likely to be eliminated. Straight-up bussing off your partner in Day 1 in this setup is fairly unlikely, but parking your vote on your partner if you felt confident that someone else would be the elimination seems reasonable.

[Somnus]

How so? Admittedly, it's late here and my brain isn't functioning at 100%.

[Somnus]

May I ask, am I the only one who has a hard time understanding PPP's posts? They're worded very confusingly and I don't really know what to make of it.

There's just two that I had a hard time understanding. Pimpest and I had a brief dialogue about 332 but it quickly dissolved (was late at night). I took a look at it later on with a fresh set of eyes and still didn't entirely understand it, but it's kind of whatever. 378 pinged me a lot harder. I'll get to that in a bit.

[Somnus]

Waw. It appears to be true, at least for this type of setup. Given what I've learned, I am now a lot less interested in the game for some reason. Sooo eeeh double wappa? VOTE: Somnus

Ok. So there's 2 I didn't understand, but there's a couple other ones that I have questions about. Surely you knew that in mafia, people get voted off, correct? I'm not being sarcastic when I ask that, so please don't take my question as me being snide because I promise you I'm being serious. I've never played on Epic Mafia, but is it so fundamentally different from forum mafia that you didn't know the goal that we're working towards? What changed to make you less interested in the game pertaining to the setup? Help me understand.

[Somnus]

[quote="In post 402,
I was gonna tbhs but, like, yknow? I think at best people are too quick to townread Ailianna.[/quote]

You may be right. My very early read was based almost entirely on tone. Can you make a case on her?

[Somnus]

Searching for a replacement for Alianna.

Nevermind...

[Somnus]

Town: Lukewarm, TTTT.
furtiveglance should replace TTTT's vote on marcistar.

What is your read on marcistar? This would imply to me that she is one of your scum-reads?

[Somnus]

Waw. It appears to be true, at least for this type of setup. Given what I've learned, I am now a lot less interested in the game for some reason. Sooo eeeh double wappa? VOTE: Somnus

Ok. So there's 2 I didn't understand, but there's a couple other ones that I have questions about. Surely you knew that in mafia, people get voted off, correct? I'm not being sarcastic when I ask that, so please don't take my question as me being snide because I promise you I'm being serious. I've never played on Epic Mafia, but is it so fundamentally different from forum mafia that you didn't know the goal that we're working towards? What changed to make you less interested in the game pertaining to the setup? Help me understand.

It's been a long time and I doubt I was any good at it, but in the version of the game that I played, random voting was bad, from what I recall. I fail to see the distinction between that and what we're doing.

I appreciate the response, but I don't know that anyone is random voting at this point? I'm not a fan of RVS, but I'm not against it. I do see some value in using it to get the ball rolling. You all already know that I prefer to get the ball rolling with conversation pertaining to experience/prior games, so I won't dwell on that further.

Luke's vote on me isn't random. He's incorrect with the conclusion, which happens more times as town than not, but it isn't random. Same thing with BigTerp's previous vote on me. I can at least respect that BigTerp laid out his case on me early on, even if I found the logic behind it to be incredibly faulty. I don't think any of the people who have placed a vote on Marcistar over the last day or two have done so randomly. So I guess what I'm saying is: I'm confused why you think people are just voting randomly.

[Somnus]

May I ask, am I the only one who has a hard time understanding PPP's posts? They're worded very confusingly and I don't really know what to make of it.

There's just two that I had a hard time understanding. Pimpest and I had a brief dialogue about 332 but it quickly dissolved (was late at night). I took a look at it later on with a fresh set of eyes and still didn't entirely understand it, but it's kind of whatever. 378 pinged me a lot harder. I'll get to that in a bit.

I meant you broke the first assumption in my post. You said you we're mafia, while I said: assuming me and furtiveglance are town. Anyway, it was hardly relevant then and it's especially not now.

Ok. Yeah I don't fully understand that previous post as I mentioned, but I agree that it's probably not relevant.

[Somnus]

Town: Lukewarm, TTTT.
furtiveglance should replace TTTT's vote on marcistar.

What is your read on marcistar? This would imply to me that she is one of your scum-reads?

Your response to this though would be greatly appreciated as well.

[Somnus]

Hey, Dino. Good-luck/Have fun.

[Somnus]

@MorbidDino

Just a heads-up: the player previously in your slot has a vote on marcistar. You may want to consider unvoting her until you’ve caught up with the game and have a feel for who you want to vote for, just as a general practice when you replace into games.

[Somnus]

I disagree (I’m biased anyway) with a lot of it but agree with some of it. I’ll post a detailed response at some point today.

[Somnus]

Quick off-topic question, Furtive, because it's been bugging the hell out of me: Who is that in your avatar? I feel like it's a football coach or something.

[Somnus]

Shame that Alianna is being replaced, I thought they were a fun/chill presence in the game. Are there conventions on replacements - should we give the new player a clean slate or do we see it as the same slot?

I think I was townreading Alianna

.

Do you really not remember?

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

All 9 players should at the very least appear like they're trying to solve the game though. The fact that only a few do is a problem. And in your hypothetical, if Lukewarm is mafia, then their gamesolving would not benefit town, as it would be scum-motivated. Also, I would argue that I'm possibly the easiest push in the game, as two or three players have at least claimed that they do/previously scum-read me based on tone or having light-hearted fun at the very start of the game when barely anyone was here.

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

I'm not super convinced that he's scum despite his entrance either. Maybe he can respond to this if/when he sees this, but I partially get the impression he's just willing to go with the crowd to try and survive (which will always result in a loss if you're blindly sheeping the wrong person), but at the same time I acknowledge that he and I are the only ones voting for Pimpest currently, so maybe not.

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?


I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Subjectively disagree that he's playing differently than last game. That doesn't automatically or even likely make him scum in my eyes though. Far too many people are willingly going along with the executioner routine and not showing any autonomy whatsoever in their decisions of who/when to vote in this game. Two people who are blindly being town-read for rather minimal reasons don't get to dictate who the "dueling wagons" are, who you're allowed to vote for, or if/when you're allowed to declare intent to hammer. And yet, here we are. It's YOUR vote and not someone else's. This isn't directed exclusively at you, by the way, furtive.

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

You had him as your highest town-read when he had three posts though: an RVS vote, post 109, and post 182. I'm not questioning your read changing. Everyone SHOULD constantly be reassessing their reads. I'm questioning how those two posts went from making him your highest town read to being "easy posts for anyone to make/limited in its usefulness". He needs to start posting more, new or not. I'm going to point out here that you're agreeing with PPP being a scumread for two paragraphs from now.

Alianna

: Soon to be replaced. I think it's best to say null for that reason. I would have said town if I had to guess, however their townread on Somnus in 216 stood out to me, because they said 'similar reasons to Turtle' and I didn't think Somnus had earned it in the same way. But they're being replaced, so in the null range.

See above ^

PimPestPlay

: n00b. If they are mafia they are playing very level zero, and it would be daring to play this way as mafia, but thinking about this is just WIFOM. They are very self aware in their newness and none of their reads/analyses are grounded in anything other than either randomness, peer pressure, or bizarre assumptions/leaps of logic. In 421 they use the word 'should' which is throwing me off, as town is surely more likely to think in this way - we are all working together etc. I scumread them previously for doing things without reason, but that could just as easily be nooby town. One thing's for sure: this player is never getting nightkilled. I've never been a fan of the Darwinian 'vote out unhelpful players though'. I think I'll revise this read back to null.

Agree about the WIFOM. I don't agree that his two votes (both on me) have been random. One was an OMGUS/retaliation vote and one he admitted he's essentially doing what he's told/what is popular. I agree with the peer pressure, but as always, it should come down to what the motivation behind that peer pressure is. More importantly though, two paragraphs ago, you "agreed that he's a scum-read". In fact, less than 12 hours before this reads-list, you went from declaring intent to hammer marci, to rather going with PPP, to putting him at null.

Somnus

: A lot of posts, 1 readslist. That one readslist in 331 is all I really have to go on. They have pinned the two 'newbie' players as scumleans which I don't like. Despite being a high frequency poster, I haven't been townreading Somnus this game, and having read through Newbie 2087 I can't see much difference in their play this game. I'm giving Somnus a null/scum lean here.

Up until this post that I'm replying to, everyone had a grand total of 0-1 readslists. People don't usually type up a fully detailed readslist every day or two. As far as I can tell, even with this post, only 2 people have done a full readslist twice and a few players still have zero. Why does the experience of who I have in my current/subject to change scum-reads list matter? At the time, I also had two newbie players as my only two town reads. So if you're implying that I'm buddying with experienced players and picking on newer players, shouldn't I have several experienced players as town-leans (I currently have zero of them as town-leans, which obviously can't be the correct solve). Why is this even remotely relevant? How does this game in any way, shape, or form, look like how I played in Newbie 2087? I think they look worlds apart, but I'm biased.

Marcistar

: I can't get over their reluctance to voice thoughts on the game despite being on the brink of elimination. They don't seem to have any kind of agenda however, and like Lukewarm says, they aren't desperately self-preserving (e.g. by voting for Somnus). It's still a scum-lean from me.

I agree, and it's been frustrating, regardless of whether they're on the brink of elimination or not. It's hard to tell whether it's coming from unmotivated town or from scum, but ultimately, it all leads to the same anti-town results. I'm still waiting for responses to a couple of questions posed to her before I can reach a better conclusion...

...But if this is a legit reads list and not one made to look like a legit reads list, this is where your vote should be then, yeah?

Why is it not? Walk me through the progression of:

-Declaring intent to hammer marci

-Being scolded and told you're not allowed to touch the hammer (I'm only wording it this way because I know you're not the type to get offended by me making a harmless joke)

-Saying you'd rather vote for PimpestPlay but that you're both excited/optimistic that Marci is likely mafia

-Presumably going to bed

-Waking up and typing a reads-list and then placing a vote elsewhere, while Pimpest is no longer a scum-read (even though he was earlier in this very post). Because that looks really really really really really bad to me. Worse than anything else I may have been nit-picky about here.

To conclude then, my townbloc consists of Lukewarm, BigTerp and TTT.

This leaves a scumpool of Turtle, PPP, Alianna's replacement, Somnus and Marcistar.

My gut read is that Somnus is red. VOTE: Somnus

[Somnus]

Quick off-topic question, Furtive, because it's been bugging the hell out of me: Who is that in your avatar? I feel like it's a football coach or something.

John Watson as portrayed by Martin Freeman in the BBC adaptation of Sherlock

Also, thank-you. Definitely not a football coach then. Don't know why I thought he looked familiar.

[Somnus]

I feel like this couldn't be further from the truth. If you look back through the votes, I had the first vote on you, even though my reasoning was admittedly faulty https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285550. I then moved off of you to Marci, admittedly the 3rd vote and putting them at E-2, but I gave plenty of reasoning. Then over to PPP, which you seem to like, but again with plenty of reasoning of my own https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13288112. I'm now back on Marci to get them to E-1, for reasons just explained. I see nothing indicating I'm blindly sheeping anyone or going along with the crowd. Quite the opposite, in fact. Would you like to elaborate?

You seem to STILL be caught up on my entrance. I already addressed that, with you specifically even. Not sure why that is still such an issue for you.[/quote]

I'm not caught up on it. Furtive mentioned it in his readlist and it was an important part in sorting you. I mentioned that despite it, I'm not super convinced you're scum.

And yes, as far as the blue, I thought about posting here asking what the most readable color would be when replying to specific comments in a wall-post. If you have any recommendations, I'm all ears.

[Somnus]

Ehh...this is what happens when I try to snip just part of a quote. ^

[Somnus]

It was more of an unsure gut-feel and still is. Not so much via votes, because as I acknowledged, you could easily just be sheeping one of the two bigger wagons the whole time and you haven't. More like buddying that I could potentially be mistaking as inauthentic. Gut-read that I'm not very confident in.

[Somnus]

I gotcha. I was using a light green at first and it looked like ass on my laptop, so I manually went back and changed each one of those to the blue I chose, which looks good on my laptop, but I know everyone has different setups/brightness/templates so I guess looking for colors that universally look acceptable. Anyway.

[Somnus]

In general, I avoid colors because there are several back ground colors that people can use, and so different colors appear differently to everyone. (I am on mafia black, and so that blue shows up really clearly for me for example).

Got it.

I would recommend strip quoting instead. Find the big post you want to engage with, hit the quote button, and then while you are on the preview page, make liberal use of the quote button at the top - right next to the Bold/Itallics/Underline button. This will give you several instances of quote boxes with the og persons quote, and your comments outside of the quote boxes

Thank-you.

[Somnus]

Don't have much time at the moment, as I'm about to head out, but as a quick response:

-the people who I feel are being told who they are and aren't allowed to vote for and when are Furtive, Pimpest, and Alianna (who is no longer here)

-I had you listed as null in my reads list from two days ago and I still do. I don't pretend that I have all 8 players sorted out if I don't. I don't like that it felt like you were trying to butter TTTT up and "lock-towning him all the way to eLo" after the hydra game he mentioned that you forgot.

-I'm not at the bottom of his reads-list. I'm close to it though. Marci is. He has me listed as null-scum and Marci as straight-up scum. He said he was excited that Marci is probably scum, gave intent to hammer marci, was told "no", said he'd rather vote for Pimpest anyway, presumably slept on it, and started the day with a readslist where in the section about Mr. Turtle, he agreed that Pimpest was a scum-read but then listed him as null two paragraphs later, and put his vote neither on Marci or Pimpest. That should at the absolute set off some alarms for you.

Anyway, like I said, short on time and busy day ahead of me.

[Somnus]

They have nothing else to say about the game. I would prefer PPP probably but I'm optimistic that Marcistar is mafia

Nah I have more I could say, yall just aint ready for that conversation

Just curious what this was referring to, Marci.

[Somnus]

Welcome, goodluck, and have fun, Goldfish.

[Somnus]

that slot is probably scum

Why do you say this?

Scum are statistically more likely to rep out then town. Not enough more so that you can reliably use it, but two replacemennts on the same slot this quickly doubles that statistic. It does not bode well for the slot.

Also though, Dino's tenure in the slot was individually kinda bad.

Can you explain the last part? He had 1 post.

[Somnus]

This is a good thought. I think if Marci ends up being the elimination, this is going to be a much easier question to answer.

[Somnus]

Don't know what happened to the quote. One sec. ^

[Somnus]

You won't show me your pov. Give detailed reads please!!

I did everyone just ignored them

All we have so far is 409, which was cobbled together by TTTT. I don't need pages of theory/analysis, I'd just like each player put into one of three groups: town, null, and mafia. Furthermore, if you are town, you have a unique perspective on your wagon. Who looks like they are cynically pushing you out? Who looks like town being led astray?

Meant to quote that last part from furtive ^

[Somnus]

I don't know how I feel about starting a counter-wagon on someone who just got here and is in their first game on the site, regardless of how scummy the slot appears. That seems like a good way to drive someone away from the site permanently. They will presumably still be here on Day 2. Two replacements in less than a week doesn't look good on a slot, especially on Day 1. I don't feel great about holding that against Goldie as soon as they replaced into their first game, regardless of how questionable the slot is. I'd like to hear other opinions on what is customary in this situation.

[Somnus]

Why would you not read more into it though if you're town? These are good things to at least probe. Hell, even if you're mafia, you're at least more engaged in things now than you were early on. I have something else I want to say about this, but I think it's important to first get a response from TTTT before I comment further. I think gauging people's early Day 2 reactions, combined with the push on Marci, is going to give everyone a good place to start.

[Somnus]

To Pimpest and whoever else, I offer you these questions:

1.) Who would have benefited the most from Marci being eliminated as quickly as possible?
2.) Who is the one person who never made a case against her, voted for her, or encouraged anyone else to replace an unvote on Marci with a vote?
3.) Who is the only other person who realistically could have been eliminated Day 1?
4.) Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?

The answers to 1-3 may disappoint you.

[Somnus]

All I want from this game is for either Somnus or GoldfishFromTheMoon to not be mafia. I want my expectations subverted damn it!

Then again, maybe the answers won't disappoint you.

[Somnus]

Marci, are you town?

no, r u?

I don't think I'm gonna be able to tell my grandkids about this game.

2nd time I legit lol'ed in this game. Props.

do you guys wanna hear a Hitler joke?
fair warning it isn't very funny

Go for the hat-trick?

[Somnus]

It's not an accusation against any one person in particular. I need to hear from everyone.

[Somnus]

You had zero votes on you with less than 48 hours to go in Day 1. You weren't getting eliminated.

[Somnus]

I’m aware. I meant I’m holding off until you’ve had a chance to address Pimpest’s comment about a Somnus/TTTT scum team and why that is now very very unlikely.

[Somnus]

Somnus if I'm following you
you are saying PPP and furtive

I wasn’t kidding. I didn’t have anyone lined up that I was taking a veiled shot at/accusation. But we now have information and we need to piece together which vote/votes seemed the least likely to be motivated by good intentions.

[Somnus]

not sure why it is very very unlikely from anybody else's POV
what are you getting at?
I do find it funny that PPP thinks he can get me elim'd today

Because it would mean you delayed Day 1 as long as possible, risking a wagon continuing to grow on me, whether you joined in said-wagon or not. If you and I were partners, it's a bold move, Cotton.

I give Pimpest credit that he's at least willing to look elsewhere. I'm not sure I agree with him, but I think he deserves some credit for not locking in entirely.

[Somnus]

I'm going to go through ISO's in the evening. The problem is going to be that virtually everyone wanted Marci dead.

[Somnus]

I'd be ok with a furtive wagon today, but if no one else is interested in that, I won't pursue it. I made my stance pretty clear in my response to his 2nd reads-list in Day 1 and how the intent didn't match the content. If we're appealing to the dead (which is only useful to some extent, since they were uninformed as well), Marci had furtive as her biggest scumread and he declared intent to hammer her three different times. Despite the really outdated posts that furtive is linking from luke, by the end of Day 1, luke didn't seem very confident in furtive being town. Despite all of the people who have scum-read furtive at one point or another, I don't believe he has had a single vote on him in this game.

I think the flip, green or red, would help narrow down a lot of partners, but as I said on Day 1, vote as you see accordingly.

[Somnus]

If Somnus is town, then nothing makes sense anymore. I think Somnus has to be mafia.

VOTE: Somnus

Why the rush? Your read on me seems to change by the hour.

Sometimes it changes paragraph to paragraph (see post 471).

[Somnus]

Somnus
who is in your scumpool besides Furtive?

The way I'm trying to look at it is:

1.) Who would I be willing to vote for today
2.) Who wouldn't I be willing to vote for today

As I said before, I think analyzing the Marci wagon + those who were willing to push through either of Somnus/Marci is important, but more importantly, revisiting each person's progression of how they got there and if it felt natural. Mis-limming a townie doesn't = scum, but how they got there is important. I think the two people least likely to flip scum at this point are you and Terp. I'd be down with hearing a case for Goldfish, Pimpest, or Mr. Turtle.

I don't lock-town anyone unless they're mechanically cleared, but as it stands, I won't be voting for you or Terp today.

[Somnus]

Public opinion seems to have turned against me between the start of Day 2 and now. I think this is because I have encouraged people to vote for a mafioso and am now being 'silenced by the mob'. I will ignore Somnus and Golfish who are only throwing shade at me because I said it was them first, and haven't made any decent points at all.

I like you, furtive, but this is kind of gross and not a productive approach.

[Somnus]

I've been the least agreeable person in this game with the possible exception of Marci, and I didn't say in 806 what you're implying I said.

[Somnus]

My guess would be that both of them are in a pool of you, Goldfish, Pimpest, and Mr. Turtle. What I would never do, however, is announce that I have zero interest in hearing from any of them. Look at how much I engaged with Pimpest on Day 1 and tried to sort him, despite voting for him.

[Somnus]

The way I'm trying to look at it is:

1.) Who would I be willing to vote for today
2.) Who wouldn't I be willing to vote for today

Ah, yeah, I guess? This seems kinda empty to me. Could you give me and GoldfishFromTheMoon the answers to 677? I don't think we understood it.

Well yeah it looks empty. You kind of removed all of the important context from the post when you quoted it.

To answer your question about 677, the answer to 1-3 was myself. I would have benefited the most by far by pushing Marci through ASAP and making a case for her. No one else was in danger of being eliminated. You briefly had two votes on you, and Goldfish had zero. So no, I believe you misunderstood where I was going with that.

[Somnus]

I guess I can understand how you see it that way. The point that I was unsuccessfully trying to make was that we had a wagon of 5 players (1 of them is now dead), 1 person who wasn't on the wagon but had previous intent to hammer a few times, and 1 who wasn't on the wagon but at one point encouraged anyone else to replace an unvote on said-wagon (and so yes, that specific last part is referring to you), and that being on or off of the wagon of a mis-limmed townie is a good starting point, but there were essentially 7 players that wanted Marci dead. And so yes, that's an unfortunately large pool to work with and so going over the intent is in my opinion the top priority.

[Somnus]

What I'm saying is that there's several players who fit that criteria. They're clearly not all scum-motivated.

[Somnus]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

[Somnus]

Not really sure I understand the last part, Terp. What I was saying to Pimpest is that I would have had the most to gain by far out of anyone by hopping on the Marci wagon or casing her.

[Somnus]

Back to the dueling wagon idea. I like a Somnus/Turtle one right now. And to a lesser extent Somnus/Furtive.

You realize that asking for a wagon on me again today, especially calling for Somnus/furtive, wagons 0 of the people who voted for Marci, correct?

[Somnus]

I see. I wasn’t being defensive. I’m pointing out that the only other person who could have been eliminated Day 1 made no effort to push the other (and Marci didn’t either). So to me it’s weird that that would be someone’s first reaction to seeing a dead townie.

[Somnus]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

Is the above an unreasonable question? I assume it's minus town points. Since the mafia don't care which townie gets elim'd and would be looking for any excuse to vote either one. Also, we're all in your scum pool.
I'll restate it. Why should I care "Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?"?
In your last answer you didn't quote the 2nd condition of #4, so just to make sure I'll ask the following. Do you think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance didn't make a good case against either you or marcistar?

It's not an unreasonable question, but I think that you and I have a fundamental difference on the premise. It doesn't take much to make a seemingly "good" case against someone on Day 1, and more often than not, it results in a mis-lim. That's just the odds. I won't bore you with details, but when I was scum, we eliminated a player on Day 1 with a similar case. It looked "good" and it appealed to the majority. I doubt TTTT wants to do a deep-dive into the mis-lim in his prior game on Day 1, and the case was a bit different, but same thing.

Point being, it's not hard to push someone on very little on Day 1. That doesn't make it a bad case. It means that it was an easy push with limited information. Marci was disengaged from the game, which happens. I can relate. I've had some unfortunate IRL issues that have coincided with this game, but that's neither here nor there. Looking back through Marci's ISO, as disengaged as she was, she DID provide reads. I just think people didn't like that it wasn't condensed into one big wall-post/list. So again, to me, it's not a matter of "Was the case good?". It's a matter of what the motivation looked like, and that has been hard to decipher.

[Somnus]

Town should care who gets eliminated and who at least on the surface appeared to not care who was eliminated. Town wants to be right about who they eliminate. Mafia just wants to get the mis-lim.

To the second part, I don't, but I don't think that's really for me to say with any objectivity. I don't know what other answer you'd get from any player in any game to that last part besides, "No". I'd be more curious to where both you and Goldfish stand in this game with your thoughts.

[Somnus]

I did answer you, Pimpest. You either don’t like the answers or don’t understand what I’m saying, but I’ve answered your questions.

1.) If you’re town, you should have questions when you see someone seemingly indifferent about who gets eliminated. I don’t know why you wouldn’t.

2.) I have now answered this in 3 different posts, but based on the progression of how the votes went, yes I do.

I cannot clarify it more than that for you. It’s not humanly possible. We never got any clarification on what occurred in post 378, which looked like it was typed by a completely different person, and said they were a lot less interested in the game anymore. I’ve chalked it up as being on completely different wavelengths, which is fine, but I have answered your questions.

[Somnus]

Mornin'. Reading through Turtle's posts.

[Somnus]

I've only been around for a couple months, but I don't think I've seen a slot have 4 players either, even in a newbie game.

[Somnus]

If TTTT was right about Alianna back on page 2, I'm sheeping until I'm dead.

[Somnus]

I wasn't cool with starting a counter-wagon on someone who had just replaced in on Day 1. We're well beyond that point though.

[Somnus]

Goldfish - A slot that is incredibly hedgy. I don't like 571 & 585. The first has seemingly random one-liners such as "this post freaks me out" or "I find this very interesting". Why is this progressing the game?
While ("

I don't want to take to strong a stance because I think I'm possibly wrong and I don't want to throw the game.

") not wanting to throw the game is admirable, none of their stances have been "too strong". The stance they follow up with is literally "let's eliminate the leading wagon and most widely scum-read player marcistar" with an added "(but I do think she is scum)" to assure us that they aren't trying to eliminate one of their town-reads.

They also keep on apologizing and not committing "(sorry I know you didn't want a wall of text)", "Tentative reads (I don't trust all these yet)" & "so here is my explaining (and I get this sounds bad)". This just feels so awkward. "I know this looks bad but I'm going to put my vote back on Marci" -> the constant focus on "this sounds/looks bad" makes me believe that they're hyper-focusing on their image and how they need to appear towny.

577 feels eh. Especially when followed by 579. It's as if they're trying to prove "I'm not scum, watch me vote the scummiest player!".

The reads list in 583 is okay. It's nothing ground-breaking or alignment-indicative either way. I don't blame them, they subbed into end of day. But nothing new, still the same hedginess and whatever "

I visualise him as Watson from the BBC Sherlock TV show because of the profile pic, which biases me toward thinking he is town.

" is.

I get that they subbed into a difficult position, but I feel like this is more likely newb!scum than newb!town. Newb!town knows that they are 100% town and while not confident in their reads, they generally seem less worried and awkward than Goldfish here. To me this looks like Goldfish very badly wanted to get on people's good side by being apolegetic and going with the flow.

Sadly, it's late. I'll continue their ISO as soon as I can. I didn't make it past post #10 of their ISO yet, so maybe something changes. But until then VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the self-conscious entrance.

Goldfish, a continuation - I find posts 587 & 590 fine. I like them thinking outside the box, I dislike the hedginess. Albeit, I really don't think Somnus/PPP are a thing. 606 & 672 is also slightly +town.

765 and 766 are overly apologetic. There's a lot of "sorry for not doing this" instead of... doing it. I don't really like this.

"

I agree that people have been too quick to toweread Mr Turtle,

" from 771 (and 772). You townread me in your eighth post (583) when I was somewhat town-read by the thread. Now you write this after TTTT votes me. I feel like you're just copying the thread as opposed to come with your own reasons. There's nothing wrong with scum-reading me, but it feels ungenuine. I find myself agreeing with furtive's 793.
I just noticed that furtiveglance already covered 795 -> I like Goldie's response 797, I like the honesty. I still don't like the sheeping of TTTT. They say that my limited posting isn't the only thing they find suspicious, yet I can't find what else the reason is. There have been two flips, yes. How and why does this relate to your read on me? Without reasons it just seems like you're pocketing or sheeping TTTT.

796 "

Last time I voted someone (and I wasn't 100% sure) they turned out to be town and I don't want a repeat of that

." feels non-committing. They have yet to vote and as TTTT pointed out, that's not helping town. "I don't want to vote" is more anti-town than following your reads and voting (even if they then fliptown). So yeah, not really thrilled about that.

In this latter part of the ISO, Goldfish feels a bit more natural and less awkward/stiff in the thread. Some posts they make I actually find good. I'm not entirely convinced, though. They haven't really committed to much. To apply TTTT's opinion on me to Goldfish, they seem to be coasting. I would like to see a vote and a bit more of your thoughts, maybe some pushes.

I can't say I really disagree with any of this.

[Somnus]

Alright.

VOTE: Goldfish

[Somnus]

E-1. Sorry. Should have made that clear. ^

[Somnus]

I can't see Somnus and PPP as a pair. The mafia team is therefore Somnus/GoldfishFromtheMoon, or PPP/Goldfish.

This you?

[Somnus]

You realize that post was less than 20 hours ago and Goldfish didn't have any posts in that span until just now, right?

[Somnus]

I still scumread Gold

, don't get me wrong. It's just that I want to eliminate the player who is mafia in either scenario.

[Somnus]

GG, good luck, have fun, and stay classy.

[Somnus]

Just in case the above vote didn't count due to not being bolded: VOTE: Somnus

[Somnus]

You too. Take care and enjoy your trip.

[Somnus]

All good. I don't think anyone crossed any lines. Mafia games get kind of shitty. Unfortunate part of the game. Best wishes.

[Somnus]

Btw, I don't know what a green role PM looks like. 4.9% chance of rolling maf two games in a row in this setup.