Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[PlmPestPlaY]

Hi. I'm new here. Does anyone play on epicmafia.org? I don't trust the website because you can only login with 3rd party accounts.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Well, nvm. That is a silly reason not to trust it. Only took a couple of seconds of research to find that out. Can't delete posts right?

[PlmPestPlaY]

Welcome, Pimpest. I’m fighting the urge to call you PP with every ounce of strength I have.

I’ve heard of Epic Mafia but never tried it. It’s chat-based, from my understanding. Is this your first time trying forum mafia?

Yeah, hope it's not too hardcore.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

I knew for sure it wasn't your role, don't worry about that (I'm Rolecop not Goon)

Imagine saying that, then winning the game as an actual mafia rolecop. I don't have much experience, so I don't believe I can read people on day 1. Can't say causing chaos on day 1 makes someone scum, since that day matters the least. From where I'm standing everyone is just tying themselves into a knot. Guess I'll vote, just because everyone else is.

VOTE: Somnus

[PlmPestPlaY]

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

I knew for sure it wasn't your role, don't worry about that (I'm Rolecop not Goon)

Imagine saying that, then winning the game as an actual mafia rolecop. I don't have much experience, so I don't believe I can read people on day 1. Can't say causing chaos on day 1 makes someone scum, since that day matters the least. From where I'm standing everyone is just tying themselves into a knot. Guess I'll vote, just because everyone else is.

VOTE: Somnus

Is this vote random? You called out Furtive for claiming a role then voted Somnus. Odd.

Case in point that you are tying yourselves into knots? Somnus voted me so I returned the favor. No deeper meaning behind it. Idk what to make of furtiveglance's theatricality; idk what else to call it. BigTerp can't seem to take a joke. Wouldn't say that's a town trait. Although it's true that jokes cause confusion (furtiveglance, Somnus). Speaking purely objectively. TTTT has the most experience based on join date. TTTT is also more likely to be town, just like everyone else. So I think I'll trust TTTT. I also swear I planned to post that before you voted me. :p

Some of marcistar's posts look like they came from a bot. But I'm not sure I want to put marcistar on E1.

[PlmPestPlaY]

UNVOTE: Somnus

[PlmPestPlaY]

TTTT has the most experience based on join date.

TTTT is also more likely to be town, just like everyone else

. So I think I'll trust TTTT.

huh?

It's just probability. A player is more likely to be town. I've said already I don't believe I can read people day 1.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

I knew for sure it wasn't your role, don't worry about that (I'm Rolecop not Goon)

Imagine saying that, then winning the game as an actual mafia rolecop. I don't have much experience, so I don't believe I can read people on day 1. Can't say causing chaos on day 1 makes someone scum, since that day matters the least. From where I'm standing everyone is just tying themselves into a knot. Guess I'll vote, just because everyone else is.

VOTE: Somnus

Is this vote random? You called out Furtive for claiming a role then voted Somnus. Odd.

Case in point that you are tying yourselves into knots? Somnus voted me so I returned the favor. No deeper meaning behind it. Idk what to make of furtiveglance's theatricality; idk what else to call it. BigTerp can't seem to take a joke. Wouldn't say that's a town trait. Although it's true that jokes cause confusion (furtiveglance, Somnus). Speaking purely objectively. TTTT has the most experience based on join date. TTTT is also more likely to be town, just like everyone else. So I think I'll trust TTTT. I also swear I planned to post that before you voted me. :p

Some of marcistar's posts look like they came from a bot. But I'm not sure I want to put marcistar on E1.

So, just like Somnus said, a OMGUS vote. Got it.

I've addressed the joking aspect of the game already. If you can't accept my reasoning, and my attempt to move beyond it, so be it. But pretty weak, IMO, to use as evidence to peg me as scummy.

If you're basing who you trust on experience based on join date, I joined in 2013. Why not trust me?!?!?

You're either not paying very good attention, or intentionally trying to make it look that way.

I don't know what to make of your last sentence about Marcistar's post coming from a bot. Very strange thing to say.

I hadn't noticed your join date. By coming from a bot, I do sort of mean what you meant - vague, generic, plain, etc.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Will just say this, since we are at E1.

Assuming me and furtiveglance are town (which is atleast half true, you guys).
Assuming me and furtiveglance are reluctant to lynch day 1, as we both have expressed.
Assuming a day 1 scum elimination would be so catastrophic for mafia, that scum would never vote scum (seems reasonable).

Then a day 1 lynch is as likely to be scum as all remaining 5 town voting the same person. Which seems unlikely to me.

[PlmPestPlaY]

2.) In my only other game on here, I was mafia and I was the most reluctant person to eliminate someone on Day 1. I ended up being the hammering vote with 24 hours before the deadline.

Fair enough, but you are breaking the first assumption.

[PlmPestPlaY]

In my experience, when a town player is close to elimination they make it known that they are vanilla town and that a kill on them won't hurt the town (in a sense that they are not a special role).

Can you elaborate? Because I honestly don't see the logic.

[PlmPestPlaY]

I am also excited about Marcistar potentially being mafia, so if I had to vote now that's where I would vote. Do not take this as intent to hammer though because I want to hear more from them before they go, in case they are town.

What happened to defending the first wagon that hit e-1?

My townreads are on this one. My biggest scumread (PPP) is not.

Doesn't this post contradict the one Lukewarm just replied to?

[PlmPestPlaY]

I am also excited about Marcistar potentially being mafia, so if I had to vote now that's where I would vote. Do not take this as intent to hammer though because I want to hear more from them before they go, in case they are town.

What happened to defending the first wagon that hit e-1?

My townreads are on this one. My biggest scumread (PPP) is not.

So do you scum read Marci, or are you just considering sheeping your town reads?

"Excited about Marcistar potentially being Mafia" is an interesting phrasing lol

I do scumread Marci now because they don't want to give reads.

Don't you scumlean Marcistar in #346, then townlean #351 and here scumlean again?

[PlmPestPlaY]

I am also excited about Marcistar potentially being mafia, so if I had to vote now that's where I would vote. Do not take this as intent to hammer though because I want to hear more from them before they go, in case they are town.

What happened to defending the first wagon that hit e-1?

My townreads are on this one. My biggest scumread (PPP) is not.

As you can see here I'm saying my townreads are 'on the wagon' i.e. voting for Marci. I do not townread Marci in this post or anywhere else

Ok, nvm, that was dumb.

[PlmPestPlaY]

In my experience, when a town player is close to elimination they make it known that they are vanilla town and that a kill on them won't hurt the town (in a sense that they are not a special role).

Can you elaborate? Because I honestly don't see the logic.

In my experience, when a town player is close to elimination they make it known that they are vanilla town and that a kill on them won't hurt the town (in a sense that they are not a special role).

Regardless of how the chips fall, there are 2 mafia and 2 special town roles. We certainly would rather eliminate a vanilla town versus a town special, agreed?

Agreed, but I feel like you speak as if there has to be an elimination. I don't see the gain in the town knowing you are vanilla. Town doesn't want to lynch their own no matter what, no? I don't really understand all this bloodlust. I was planning to make a post calling out TTTT for wanting double wagons. I feel like that situation is good for mafia. But now 2 other players have come out in favor of the stratagy. So now I'm just gonna assume I don't know the meta.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Waw. It appears to be true, at least for this type of setup. Given what I've learned, I am now a lot less interested in the game for some reason. Sooo eeeh double wappa? VOTE: Somnus

[PlmPestPlaY]

Town: Lukewarm, TTTT.
furtiveglance should replace TTTT's vote on marcistar.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Waw. It appears to be true, at least for this type of setup. Given what I've learned, I am now a lot less interested in the game for some reason. Sooo eeeh double wappa? VOTE: Somnus

Ok. So there's 2 I didn't understand, but there's a couple other ones that I have questions about. Surely you knew that in mafia, people get voted off, correct? I'm not being sarcastic when I ask that, so please don't take my question as me being snide because I promise you I'm being serious. I've never played on Epic Mafia, but is it so fundamentally different from forum mafia that you didn't know the goal that we're working towards? What changed to make you less interested in the game pertaining to the setup? Help me understand.

It's been a long time and I doubt I was any good at it, but in the version of the game that I played, random voting was bad, from what I recall. I fail to see the distinction between that and what we're doing.

[PlmPestPlaY]

May I ask, am I the only one who has a hard time understanding PPP's posts? They're worded very confusingly and I don't really know what to make of it.

There's just two that I had a hard time understanding. Pimpest and I had a brief dialogue about 332 but it quickly dissolved (was late at night). I took a look at it later on with a fresh set of eyes and still didn't entirely understand it, but it's kind of whatever. 378 pinged me a lot harder. I'll get to that in a bit.

I meant you broke the first assumption in my post. You said you we're mafia, while I said: assuming me and furtiveglance are town. Anyway, it was hardly relevant then and it's especially not now.

[PlmPestPlaY]

So I guess what I'm saying is: I'm confused why you think people are just voting randomly.

Well my vote on you is based on 2 towny looking players suspecting you. So it's not random, but is it more correct than a random vote? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Town: Lukewarm, TTTT.
furtiveglance should replace TTTT's vote on marcistar.

What is your read on marcistar? This would imply to me that she is one of your scum-reads?

I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone. I agree with Lukewarm that I would be an easy get out of jail free card. That was true even from the beginning, since I had 2 votes on me, yet marcistar never made that pivot. I don't see how we got anything out of marcistar, but pressure = good, I'm told.

[PlmPestPlaY]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

Agreed.

By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

There are 2 sides to everything. Why would I trust my own logic?

Would it convince anyone if I vowed to vote for whomever Lukewarm votes? Except for hammering ofc.

[PlmPestPlaY]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

I honestly don't know what's best here. Such a tough situation when someone gets replaced.

Your read of the starting player and their replacement are both seperate and relevant. Give more weight to the one you find more convincing. There is no subjectivity here, unless you don't want to be rude or something.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Strictly speaking Alianna's vote is no less valuable as MorbidDino's. So if someone is waiting to hammer because of that...
I'll post tomorrow. Yesterday I gave this forum too much attention.

[PlmPestPlaY]

It seems I'm in the awkward situation of replacing into a town slot that looks pretty scummy.

No idea what gave you that impression...

It would be a bit underwhelming if marcistar and GoldfishFromTheMoon turned out to be mafia. Hope GoldfishFromTheMoon is town.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

[PlmPestPlaY]

UNVOTE:

I don't want a hammer or even a claim until Goldie is caught up

You could vote Somnus in the meantime. Duel wagons were your idea.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Marci who is the most sus rn?
Feel free to say me

yes you

aliana or mr turtle as well

I don't see this train stopping, but why not vote one of them? Even sheep voting Somnus would be better than nothing. How close to the end of day 1 do you plan to go before voting?

[PlmPestPlaY]

TTTT's recent reaction to GoldfishFromTheMoon kinda made me laugh.

so it's scummy because I'm trying to save Marci from getting elim'd?
but it's also scummy because I'm not voting another counter wagon?
pick one

Why would you have to pick one? Both are BigTerp's scum-reads.

you guys do realize you are not getting anything else from Marci, right?
I'm more interested in some thoughts from Goldie

I suppose this is true. GoldfishFromTheMoon isn't on the wagon though. This caught my eye since you were most eager to put pressure on players.

It seems I'm in the awkward situation of replacing into a town slot that looks pretty scummy.

No idea what gave you that impression...

I only wrote that because Alianna was mostly town-read. I can see why the replacement thing looks scummy. Also GoldfishFromTheMoon might not have read others' reads on Alianna .

[PlmPestPlaY]

Spoiler:

I've decided to ISO Lukewarm to see if I was able to move them out of my null range.

Regarding marcistar

: During the first twenty four hours of the game, Lukewarm pretty much waits for her to show up (11, 77 & 157) with the reasoning that she is "easiest to read in the very start of the game, before she has found her footing". What I don't like about this is that they barely do anything and it feels as though they are hiding behind said reasoning to not do anything. Having someone to meta read at the beginning of the game makes it easier to "get into" the game so to speak, but it's also an easy way for scum to look busy. Then Luke has a bit of a back and forth of friendly banter with marcistar (160 & 164) and paired with their hyper-focus regarding their interactions with her (162 & 282), I deem them unlikely to be mafia partners. Note that when 164 was posted, 7 out of 10 posts in Luke's ISO had explicitly mentioned, quoted or been about marcistar. Later, Luke starts defending marcistar based on meta reads (286 & 299), claiming that most of her lack of vote and joke scumfession were NAI. In 294 they post their first concrete read on marcistar as "null scum". To me, this progression seems a bit messy, which I rate as being more likely towny than not. In 313, Luke voices his distaste with the E-1 vote, something which I also see as towny. They then make a non-read on marci by saying that they "want to hold off comitting to a read on her" and place them in their null range (317 & 318). Furthermore, Luke cements marcistar's null position by defending their retracted vote and subtly defending her (347, 348 & 352). I like Luke trying to slow the thread down on the marcistar wagon, it doesn't strike me as benefiting the mafia. 396, 399 & 400 are used to defend marci once again based on their scum reads, however Luke backtracks a bit by saying "I don't think that this is a slam dunk Marci is town case". I am not overjoyed by the hedginess on marcistar since a lot of Luke's posts have been used defending her. The hedginess is continued in 412, the posts 413, 414, 415 & 419 are meta dives into marci's past games, but Luke admits that he doesn't have any reliable meta tells and thus marcistar stays in the null range.

Conclusion

: Lukewarm spends a lot of time and posts semi-defending marcistar by dismissing many reasons for scum reading her as NAI while staying null throughout the entire game (minus the occasional "maybe town" or "maybe scum" comment). What makes me dislike the null read especially is the fact that I count 25-30 posts made that more or less directly have to do with marci in a 70 post ISO. With that being said, I don't think that Luke can be mafia if marcistar is. No-one enters the thread and spends a third of their posts on their scum buddy. Overall, I rate Luke's interactions with marci as lean town for them. If marci is town, I'm going to scrutinize Luke some more. Outside of the associative reads, I understand that Luke latches on to the player they best know to post about. This is something I would do as well. However, I'm a bit disappointed that the reads always end nullish.

General thoughts

: On the other hand, the rest of Luke's ISO has been quite towny since their reappearance 281. I don't want to dwell on this as long as the Luke-marci interactions, but I have a couple comments here as well. What stuck out to me the most was Luke not going with the flow. When Luke reemerged at 281, their reads were independent from thread consensus. Multiple reads lists had been posted, it would have been really easy to simply "copy" them without having anyone really bat an eye. But Luke didn't, instead they scum-cased Somnus and placed a scum lean on BigTerp in 316. The lock-town on TTTT also doesn't benefit scum!Luke (420). As mafia, Luke would want to either
a) push for TTTT to get lynched, or
b) night-kill TTTT without having a strong connection tied to the kill.
But by putting TTTT as their highest town, scum!Luke wouldn't be able to do a) or b) without receiving suspicion. The fact that Luke town-locked TTTT without having pressure on them to do so makes me feel better about them.

Conclusion

:

I'm comfortable with putting Luke as a town read

. What Luke lacks in towniness regarding their marcistar read they make up with their other posts. Particularly if marci turns out to be mafia it will make me more confident in my Luke read. They have just had a towny thread presence in this game.

Would you null-lean Lukewarm, if marcistar flipped town?

[PlmPestPlaY]

Also you must have missed something, I am on the Marci Wagon.

Excuse me. I meant to say you weren't being voted out.

[PlmPestPlaY]

OH sorry I misunderstood

Actually you read it correctly. I don't have the terminology down. This is the 2nd time I've made this mistake.

[PlmPestPlaY]

This thread has gotten really chaotic hasn't it?

[PlmPestPlaY]

PPP are you opposed to a marci elim here?

I find marcistar's posts the least helpful. So no, I'm not opposed. I guess statistics still say marcistar is more likely town, but that doesn't matter.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Will just say this though.

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

The furtiveglance read and the marcistar read are largely independent. I thought marcistar's post on furtiveglance was the townies thing she had done up to that point and I agreed with some of the reasonings in the post. I don't see the need to do associative reads before we have a concrete alignment flip. With that being said, I'd like to revisit my scum and town leans (including furtiveglance) soon.

Are those reads independant though? If furtiveglance and marcistar are both mafia, that would mean marcistar made "the most well thought-out case in the game" against the other mafia player. Do you think that is something marcistar would do?

[PlmPestPlaY]

I'm really early.
Lukewarm dying is predictable and kinda fitting.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Marci, are you town?

no, r u?

I don't think I'm gonna be able to tell my grandkids about this game.

[PlmPestPlaY]

All I want from this game is for either Somnus or GoldfishFromTheMoon to not be mafia. I want my expectations subverted damn it!

[PlmPestPlaY]

Spoiler:

TTTT's recent reaction to GoldfishFromTheMoon kinda made me laugh.

so it's scummy because I'm trying to save Marci from getting elim'd?
but it's also scummy because I'm not voting another counter wagon?
pick one

Why would you have to pick one? Both are BigTerp's scum-reads.

you guys do realize you are not getting anything else from Marci, right?
I'm more interested in some thoughts from Goldie

I suppose this is true. GoldfishFromTheMoon isn't on the wagon though. This caught my eye since you were most eager to put pressure on players.

It seems I'm in the awkward situation of replacing into a town slot that looks pretty scummy.

No idea what gave you that impression...

I only wrote that because Alianna was mostly town-read. I can see why the replacement thing looks scummy. Also GoldfishFromTheMoon might not have read others' reads on Alianna .

This is a rewrite of the above post that I think is more coherent.

so it's scummy because I'm trying to save Marci from getting elim'd?
but it's also scummy because I'm not voting another counter wagon?
pick one

you guys do realize you are not getting anything else from Marci, right?
I'm more interested in some thoughts from Goldie

If I'm not mistaken your last post about Somnus was 380, which is not a town-read.
You were the first advocate for the dual wagon strategy and for putting pressure on players with votes. Granted, your proposal did not include Somnus.
marcistar was as good as hammered (so I also thought you trying to save her was extremely unlikely).
In light of the above, your focus on the replacement instead of the Somnus wagon was curious.
BigTerp read your unvote as a potential smart scum move. I read it more as a possible slip by a Somnus/TTTT team.
That said, I will not read more into this (prob.).

[PlmPestPlaY]

To Pimpest and whoever else, I offer you these questions:

1.) Who would have benefited the most from Marci being eliminated as quickly as possible?
2.) Who is the one person who never made a case against her, voted for her, or encouraged anyone else to replace an unvote on Marci with a vote?
3.) Who is the only other person who realistically could have been eliminated Day 1?
4.) Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?

The answers to 1-3 may disappoint you.

All I want from this game is for either Somnus or GoldfishFromTheMoon to not be mafia. I want my expectations subverted damn it!

Then again, maybe the answers won't disappoint you.

It's not an accusation against any one person in particular. I need to hear from everyone.

It's exacerbated by my position, but this is the most confusing series of posts I've read all game. You say "The answers to 1-3 may disappoint you." and "Then again, maybe the answers won't disappoint you.".
This to me implies you have a player or 2 in mind. You also say "It's not an accusation against any one person in particular." So are the questions not accusatory then? Are they neutral? Is the answer multiple people? Is the answer to the questions you? Are they vindicative in that case? I don't even know if I'm supposed to answer all questions individually or find an answer that fits them all. Also questions 2 and 3 state that only 1 player is the answer, so surely the questions were rhetorical and you had someone in mind, else why limit it to 1 person? Is the answer to #3 me or you? If the answer is me and the question is accusatory, then are you telling me I won't be dissapointed, because I am one of the mafia? Because that is nonsensical, since mafia is informed, and my wish for the game would therefore be a lie. Is the answer to #1 me or you?

Am I a null read? It is impossible to tell from Somnus's post, because he takes no stance. He just sows doubt. That frankly gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Really found myself agreeing with Lukewarm for a few seconds there.

[PlmPestPlaY]

not sure why it is very very unlikely from anybody else's POV
what are you getting at?
I do find it funny that PPP thinks he can get me elim'd today

Because it would mean you delayed Day 1 as long as possible, risking a wagon continuing to grow on me, whether you joined in said-wagon or not. If you and I were partners, it's a bold move, Cotton.

That's a good argument. Mafia don't play perfectly though. Also TTTT kinda disagrees with it. Not sure why TTTT thinks I'm trying to get him elim'd.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Nitpick:

Hell, even if you're mafia, you're at least more engaged in things now than you were early on.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me.

And in your hypothetical, if Lukewarm is mafia, then their gamesolving would not benefit town, as it would be scum-motivated.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Will just say this though.

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

The furtiveglance read and the marcistar read are largely independent. I thought marcistar's post on furtiveglance was the townies thing she had done up to that point and I agreed with some of the reasonings in the post. I don't see the need to do associative reads before we have a concrete alignment flip. With that being said, I'd like to revisit my scum and town leans (including furtiveglance) soon.

Are those reads independant though? If furtiveglance and marcistar are both mafia, that would mean marcistar made "the most well thought-out case in the game" against the other mafia player. Do you think that is something marcistar would do?

When I say independent, I mean that I read them independently. Yes, if marcistar flips mafia, I think that makes furtiveglance look much better. I don't think marcistar makes her first case on her scum buddy.

But

I see no reason for me to find furtiveglance scummy and then dismissing it because marci cased them.

Ahh, why not? Why would dismissing furtiveglance be a bad move? I think I would agree with you, had you not explicitly made marcistar your #1. It makes me think your reads-list is made up.
For your scum-lean of me you referenced your previous explanation for null-leaning me. Did you scum-lean me because more time had passed and nothing had changed?

[PlmPestPlaY]

Hi. I'm new here. Does anyone play on epicmafia.org? I don't trust the website because you can only login with 3rd party accounts.

Well, nvm. That is a silly reason not to trust it. Only took a couple of seconds of research to find that out. Can't delete posts right?

I don't like this entrance either
it reads to me like someone who feels the need to write something but isn't sure what to say about the game so far

You are right.

this Turtle post comes after an absence of pages and pages with nothing from him
and it's a long post about something that nobody in the game at the time cares about
totally irrelevant to the E-1 on marci or anything else happening

Spoiler:

I've decided to ISO Lukewarm to see if I was able to move them out of my null range.

Regarding marcistar

: During the first twenty four hours of the game, Lukewarm pretty much waits for her to show up (11, 77 & 157) with the reasoning that she is "easiest to read in the very start of the game, before she has found her footing". What I don't like about this is that they barely do anything and it feels as though they are hiding behind said reasoning to not do anything. Having someone to meta read at the beginning of the game makes it easier to "get into" the game so to speak, but it's also an easy way for scum to look busy. Then Luke has a bit of a back and forth of friendly banter with marcistar (160 & 164) and paired with their hyper-focus regarding their interactions with her (162 & 282), I deem them unlikely to be mafia partners. Note that when 164 was posted, 7 out of 10 posts in Luke's ISO had explicitly mentioned, quoted or been about marcistar. Later, Luke starts defending marcistar based on meta reads (286 & 299), claiming that most of her lack of vote and joke scumfession were NAI. In 294 they post their first concrete read on marcistar as "null scum". To me, this progression seems a bit messy, which I rate as being more likely towny than not. In 313, Luke voices his distaste with the E-1 vote, something which I also see as towny. They then make a non-read on marci by saying that they "want to hold off comitting to a read on her" and place them in their null range (317 & 318). Furthermore, Luke cements marcistar's null position by defending their retracted vote and subtly defending her (347, 348 & 352). I like Luke trying to slow the thread down on the marcistar wagon, it doesn't strike me as benefiting the mafia. 396, 399 & 400 are used to defend marci once again based on their scum reads, however Luke backtracks a bit by saying "I don't think that this is a slam dunk Marci is town case". I am not overjoyed by the hedginess on marcistar since a lot of Luke's posts have been used defending her. The hedginess is continued in 412, the posts 413, 414, 415 & 419 are meta dives into marci's past games, but Luke admits that he doesn't have any reliable meta tells and thus marcistar stays in the null range.

Conclusion

: Lukewarm spends a lot of time and posts semi-defending marcistar by dismissing many reasons for scum reading her as NAI while staying null throughout the entire game (minus the occasional "maybe town" or "maybe scum" comment). What makes me dislike the null read especially is the fact that I count 25-30 posts made that more or less directly have to do with marci in a 70 post ISO. With that being said, I don't think that Luke can be mafia if marcistar is. No-one enters the thread and spends a third of their posts on their scum buddy. Overall, I rate Luke's interactions with marci as lean town for them. If marci is town, I'm going to scrutinize Luke some more. Outside of the associative reads, I understand that Luke latches on to the player they best know to post about. This is something I would do as well. However, I'm a bit disappointed that the reads always end nullish.

General thoughts

: On the other hand, the rest of Luke's ISO has been quite towny since their reappearance 281. I don't want to dwell on this as long as the Luke-marci interactions, but I have a couple comments here as well. What stuck out to me the most was Luke not going with the flow. When Luke reemerged at 281, their reads were independent from thread consensus. Multiple reads lists had been posted, it would have been really easy to simply "copy" them without having anyone really bat an eye. But Luke didn't, instead they scum-cased Somnus and placed a scum lean on BigTerp in 316. The lock-town on TTTT also doesn't benefit scum!Luke (420). As mafia, Luke would want to either
a) push for TTTT to get lynched, or
b) night-kill TTTT without having a strong connection tied to the kill.
But by putting TTTT as their highest town, scum!Luke wouldn't be able to do a) or b) without receiving suspicion. The fact that Luke town-locked TTTT without having pressure on them to do so makes me feel better about them.

Conclusion

:

I'm comfortable with putting Luke as a town read

. What Luke lacks in towniness regarding their marcistar read they make up with their other posts. Particularly if marci turns out to be mafia it will make me more confident in my Luke read. They have just had a towny thread presence in this game.

I thought it was a good post on day 2 Lukewarm. In regards to day 1, if you boil it down, it says Lukewarm is town and marcistar is scum. Safest opinion you could have. I feel like scum!Turtle could have used this post to justify suspecting Lukewarm on day 2, instead of killing him. But if mafia is something like Mr Turtle/Somnus, I could see why they would kill Lukewarm anyway. Slight +town for Mr Turtle.

[PlmPestPlaY]

If Somnus is town, then nothing makes sense anymore. I think Somnus has to be mafia.

VOTE: Somnus

Why the rush? Your read on me seems to change by the hour.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Will just say this though.

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

The furtiveglance read and the marcistar read are largely independent. I thought marcistar's post on furtiveglance was the townies thing she had done up to that point and I agreed with some of the reasonings in the post. I don't see the need to do associative reads before we have a concrete alignment flip. With that being said, I'd like to revisit my scum and town leans (including furtiveglance) soon.

Are those reads independant though? If furtiveglance and marcistar are both mafia, that would mean marcistar made "the most well thought-out case in the game" against the other mafia player. Do you think that is something marcistar would do?

When I say independent, I mean that I read them independently. Yes, if marcistar flips mafia, I think that makes furtiveglance look much better. I don't think marcistar makes her first case on her scum buddy.

But

I see no reason for me to find furtiveglance scummy and then dismissing it because marci cased them.

Ahh, why not? Why would dismissing furtiveglance be a bad move? I think I would agree with you, had you not explicitly made marcistar your #1. It makes me think your reads-list is made up.
For your scum-lean of me you referenced your previous explanation for null-leaning me. Did you scum-lean me because more time had passed and nothing had changed?

It wouldn't be a bad move, but I made my reads independently from one another. Yes, if marcistar flipped scum that would've cleared furtiveglance. But why did I need to preemptively clear furtiveglance for a non-existent flip? I get you think it's weird that I scum read marcistar and said "Wow, that's a good case", but marcistar helped me see something that I hadn't seen before. #1 scum read doesn't mean 100% lock scum, even top scum reads do towny things. What makes marcistar as my #1 scum read different than marcistar as my #2 scum read? Following your logic, if you scum read someone you shouldn't agree with their reads. Why does this only apply to the top scum read?

Where did I reference my previous explanation for null-leaning you (I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean)? Could you like a post?

To answer your last question. In 276 you write "explained above", which I assume refers to 228. As for the rest, I'll try to justify it best I can.

1) You desribed marcistar ISO #3 post as the most well thought-out post this game. I take it this means the post is towny.
2) This would mean you #1 scum-leaned marcistar despite that post. Nothing wrong with that necessarily.
3) You possibly found your #1 significantly more scummy than your #2. To me this would mean you would find it more significant, if #1 made a really towny post scum-leaning #2, than the other way around.
4) So I feel like it would be natural to reconsider furtiveglance, since why would your #1 make such a towny post against furtiveglance, if they're a pair?

Anyway, I got what I wanted out of this conversation. Feel free to respond. As you can see, we would also like to hear your thoughts on the game right now.

[PlmPestPlaY]

The way I'm trying to look at it is:

1.) Who would I be willing to vote for today
2.) Who wouldn't I be willing to vote for today

Ah, yeah, I guess? This seems kinda empty to me. Could you give me and GoldfishFromTheMoon the answers to 677? I don't think we understood it.

[PlmPestPlaY]

The way I'm trying to look at it is:

1.) Who would I be willing to vote for today
2.) Who wouldn't I be willing to vote for today

Ah, yeah, I guess? This seems kinda empty to me. Could you give me and GoldfishFromTheMoon the answers to 677? I don't think we understood it.

Well yeah it looks empty. You kind of removed all of the important context from the post when you quoted it.

To answer your question about 677, the answer to 1-3 was myself. I would have benefited the most by far by pushing Marci through ASAP and making a case for her. No one else was in danger of being eliminated. You briefly had two votes on you, and Goldfish had zero. So no, I believe you misunderstood where I was going with that.

Thanks. You say question 4 is not rhetorical? It seems to me rather specific for an unrhetorical question. The only answer I can think of that fits both conditions is me. Maybe furtiveglance, but that is really stretching it. What are your answers to it?

[PlmPestPlaY]

I guess I can understand how you see it that way. The point that I was unsuccessfully trying to make was that we had a wagon of 5 players (1 of them is now dead), 1 person who wasn't on the wagon but had previous intent to hammer a few times, and 1 who wasn't on the wagon but at one point encouraged anyone else to replace an unvote on said-wagon (and so yes, that specific last part is referring to you), and that being on or off of the wagon of a mis-limmed townie is a good starting point, but there were essentially 7 players that wanted Marci dead. And so yes, that's an unfortunately large pool to work with and so going over the intent is in my opinion the top priority.

Not sure I understand this correctly. Do you mean to say no players fit question #4? If that isn't what you meant, please answer #4. I see here you address question #2, which I did assume referred to you.

[PlmPestPlaY]

What I'm saying is that there's several players who fit that criteria. They're clearly not all scum-motivated.

Who are they? Even I scum-leaned marcistar. Although, my case was 1 sentence long, so I guess you could say it doesn't count.

[PlmPestPlaY]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

[PlmPestPlaY]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

I'm sorry PPP but I'm not sure you're representing my intentions entierly accurately. I wasn't completely set on Marcistar, I would have been happy with either marci or somnus day 1 because I really wasn't certain about a read on anyone. I know I made a case against marcistar and multiple times said particular things they were doing seemed suspicious but that was more to convince myself that my vote was in the right place that for anyone else.

Side note PPP I don't like how you seem to be viewing me and you as a group, this is the second time you've reffered to "us" or "me and goldfishfromthemoon" Idk if you're trying to get me to townread you by seeming to be thinking along the same lines but it's not working. You're still null possibly scum (although some of your posts today were looking a bit more town-ish).

You being set on marcistar was the impression I got. At least towards the very end of day 1 you seemed that way. I know you still scum-read Somnus at the time. What you wrote about marcistar qualifies as a case in my book. It doesn't matter if you wrote it just to "fit in". The "us" in the post referrs to you, me and furtiveglance. The reason I said "give me and GoldfishFromTheMoon the answers to 677" was because you (680, 682), like me (705), were confused. Presumably because we both believed we could have been eliminated day 1.

Since I'm replying to you. Currently I null/town-lean you. That said, I think you'd be better off not replying to every single allegation or worrying about being misrepresented or whatever.

[PlmPestPlaY]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

Is the above an unreasonable question? I assume it's minus town points. Since the mafia don't care which townie gets elim'd and would be looking for any excuse to vote either one. Also, we're all in your scum pool.
I'll restate it. Why should I care "Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?"?
In your last answer you didn't quote the 2nd condition of #4, so just to make sure I'll ask the following. Do you think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance didn't make a good case against either you or marcistar?

[PlmPestPlaY]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

Is the above an unreasonable question? I assume it's minus town points. Since the mafia don't care which townie gets elim'd and would be looking for any excuse to vote either one. Also, we're all in your scum pool.
I'll restate it. Why should I care "Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?"?
In your last answer you didn't quote the 2nd condition of #4, so just to make sure I'll ask the following. Do you think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance didn't make a good case against either you or marcistar?

It's not an unreasonable question, but I think that you and I have a fundamental difference on the premise. It doesn't take much to make a seemingly "good" case against someone on Day 1, and more often than not, it results in a mis-lim. That's just the odds. I won't bore you with details, but when I was scum, we eliminated a player on Day 1 with a similar case. It looked "good" and it appealed to the majority. I doubt TTTT wants to do a deep-dive into the mis-lim in his prior game on Day 1, and the case was a bit different, but same thing.

Point being, it's not hard to push someone on very little on Day 1. That doesn't make it a bad case. It means that it was an easy push with limited information. Marci was disengaged from the game, which happens. I can relate. I've had some unfortunate IRL issues that have coincided with this game, but that's neither here nor there. Looking back through Marci's ISO, as disengaged as she was, she DID provide reads. I just think people didn't like that it wasn't condensed into one big wall-post/list. So again, to me, it's not a matter of "Was the case good?". It's a matter of what the motivation looked like, and that has been hard to decipher.

I think I get what you mean. Mafia could theoretically fake a nice looking case against someone on day 1. And since not much has happend, they don't have to string many facts together. However, I don't think this answers my 2 questions. I'll restate again, using your words.

Why should the town care who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?
Do you think furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon didn't seem to make much of a case against either you or marcistar?

[PlmPestPlaY]

Town should care who gets eliminated and who at least on the surface appeared to not care who was eliminated. Town wants to be right about who they eliminate. Mafia just wants to get the mis-lim.

To the second part, I don't, but I don't think that's really for me to say with any objectivity. I don't know what other answer you'd get from any player in any game to that last part besides, "No". I'd be more curious to where both you and Goldfish stand in this game with your thoughts.

This is getting a bit tedious now, even for me. I feel like you didn't answer the first question. Or at the very least chopped it in half and only answered the first part. Come to think of it, I think there is a bit of ambiguity to my 2nd question.
Yes I suspect you.
I'm wrapping this up. Last question:
Do you think the 2nd part (colored part) of your question "Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and

didn't seem to make much of a case against either

?" is true for furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon?

[PlmPestPlaY]

I did answer you, Pimpest. You either don’t like the answers or don’t understand what I’m saying, but I’ve answered your questions.

1.) If you’re town, you should have questions when you see someone seemingly indifferent about who gets eliminated. I don’t know why you wouldn’t.

2.) I have now answered this in 3 different posts, but based on the progression of how the votes went, yes I do.

I cannot clarify it more than that for you. It’s not humanly possible. We never got any clarification on what occurred in post 378, which looked like it was typed by a completely different person, and said they were a lot less interested in the game anymore. I’ve chalked it up as being on completely different wavelengths, which is fine, but I have answered your questions.

I agree with point 1. But to me it doesn't address the case thing. Anyway, the point was to ask whether you scum-lean or town-lean these players.
As for point 2, yeah, I could've been less pedantic. The first time you quoted only the first half and answered it. So I asked again explicitly about the 2nd part. There is slight ambiguity. Say it's raining and you don't have an umbrella. If someone asks you "Do you have an umbrella?", you say no. But if someone asks "Don't you have an umbrella?", you also say no, despite the questions being opposite. But the 3rd time was still probably unnecessary.

[PlmPestPlaY]

I am biased since Somnus voted me for the entirety of day 1, but the only players I've not town-read at any point are Somnus and Alianna/GoldfishFromTheMoon. Out of the two GoldfishFromTheMoon seems more towny to me. I don't hold Lukewarm getting night killed against Somnus, since killing the towniest player makes sense, regardless of their reads-list. However, it doesn't exactly help Somnus.

To Pimpest and whoever else, I offer you these questions:

1.) Who would have benefited the most from Marci being eliminated as quickly as possible?
2.) Who is the one person who never made a case against her, voted for her, or encouraged anyone else to replace an unvote on Marci with a vote?
3.) Who is the only other person who realistically could have been eliminated Day 1?
4.) Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?

The answers to 1-3 may disappoint you.

Somnus, as you've said, the answer to 1-3 is yourself. I take it this means the questions are supposed to give you plus town points. I know you were the 2nd wagon on day 1, but the preemptive defense seems suspect. Combined with the bellow 2 posts, you seem almost smug about the fact you never voted marcistar.

I think gauging people's early Day 2 reactions, combined with the push on Marci, is going to give everyone a good place to start.

I'm going to go through ISO's in the evening. The problem is going to be that virtually everyone wanted Marci dead.

It's almost as if you're trying to divert attention away from yourself.

The answers to question 4 are me, furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon. Considering your own scum pool and simply my own opinion, I take it question 4 is supposed to give us minus town points. Which is why these next 2 replies seem disingenuous.

Is this an accusation against me?

It's not an accusation against any one person in particular. I need to hear from everyone.

Somnus if I'm following you
you are saying PPP and furtive

I wasn’t kidding. I didn’t have anyone lined up that I was taking a veiled shot at/accusation. But we now have information and we need to piece together which vote/votes seemed the least likely to be motivated by good intentions.

Not sure how you plan to read player's intentions. Have you made any progress on that? Harkens back to Lukewarm saying your posts are too theoretical.
Moreover, why pose questions like that and invite people to answer them? Why not just state your thoughts. I feel like it would be more helpful.
Also, you ignored my post where I expressed my confusion.

If I were to sum up your day 2 posts (perhaps unfairly), it would be like "Look at me, I didn't push marcistar. Also, since everyone else did push marcistar, it's gonna be really hard to find the mafia guys.".

VOTE: Somnus

I need to take a break from this forum.

[PlmPestPlaY]

I'm the tracker. Mr Turtle visited BigTerp.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Mr Turtle, I just want you to know that I appreciated 520.
VOTE: Mr Turtle

[PlmPestPlaY]

BigTerp tysm for saving me 2 nights in a row. I was trying to pretend I had a guilty on Somnus a bit

It was literally a coin toss between you and Luke night 1. Was kicking myself tell hard after I saw like was NK'd.

Your persistence on Somnus day 2 and the fact I had TTTT pegged as his partner is what made me want to protect you again. TTTT's post here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13298148 where he was proclaiming how town I was felt like a ploy to get me protected at night so mafia could kill the player they wanted. I'm my mind it was Furtive.

I also targeted furtiveglance night 1, despite being a bit suspicious of Mr Turtle. I was surprised when you flipped doctor, since I thought Lukewarm would have been the obvious choice night 1. I guess Somnus was also the obvious choice for me on night 1. I guess when you roll PR you try to balance who looks most scummy/towny vs who is most involved in the game. GG everyone.