KTaNE [game over!]

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys, I thought I was clever, but it looks like several other people realized defusing bombs is good for maf.

I came up with a name for the strat:

MAD

M

urder

A

ll

D

efusers

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys, I thought I was clever, but it looks like several other people realized defusing bombs is good for maf.

I came up with a name for the strat:

MAD

M

urder

A

ll

D

efusers

I'm also curious if this is a part of a twist associated with the story.

We don't know that DATS inc. is even a bomb defusing company at all. All we know is that DATS inc. has been infiltrated. It's possible defusing bombs isn't DATS inc. primary purpose, and the story revolves around a company whose primary purpose has been lost.

For example, maybe DATS inc. actually stands for:

Destroy All Traitors and Scum incorporated
or
Destroy All Traitorous Scum incorporated

PEDit: StrangeMatters is already out of their scum range by the way, slight townread on StrangeMatters from me.

[Frogsterking]

Who gives a fuck,

Heal StrangeMatters

Did I do it right?

Also,

I will be doing Standard Survey Strategy

, so standby for questions. This time the delay is to make sure a have a laptop which can run the scoring scripts.

PEdit: Town can also give incorrect information to make the bomb defuser die.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Lukewarm

Based on my understanding of how the setup works then there is a clear scum motivation in 71.

[Frogsterking]

Tigger's iso is trash. Slight townread on Ceph.

weak townreads:
StrangeMatter
Cephrir

weak scumreads:
Lukewarm
GuiltyLion

[Frogsterking]

Huh I think the distraction of the theme is actually giving me more shitty early reads than usual. I'll just list them all before I start messing around with python to get my survey ready for the thread tonight.

PEdit:

weak townreads:
Cephrir
StrangeMatter
Greetings

weak scumreads:
Morning Tweet
Lukewarm
GuiltyLion

@Greetings

I like where you're headed keep going if you can! I have more of an artsy temperament than a science temperament so I think I'm most helpful to town establishing an early PoE than min maxing the mechanics, but I will try to help with both.

[Frogsterking]

@Frogsterking, do you mean by I’m out of my scumrange there? I have played with you once, which to me wouldn’t be enough to know my scumgame.

It's enough if the player in question has a scumrange the size of a pea.

PEdit:

Catboi how are you using the "Heal" tag?

[Frogsterking]

I don't fully understand this setup that's for sure.

Same. I assumed the bombs were mandatory because like...yeah, why would you do them otherwise????

please go read the setup again.

Fair warning, in games like this, I'll probably ask lots of dumb questions about the setup/mechanics.

scum

Their first post*

scum

My bad, Luke. UNVOTE: Luke There's probably at least one lurker scum who hasn't even said anything yet so there's no way Luke goes in the bottom of the PoE. There's also no way Luke goes in the top of the PoE because fake game solving is a part of Luke's scum range.

VP is way too self conscious compared to their town meta. This might be normal play for Bell but my intuition is that they seem way too self conscious and belong in the bottom of the PoE.

[Frogsterking]

Hey Menalque I'm making a full PoE list, say something townie

[Frogsterking]

@Tweet you too

[Frogsterking]

HEAL: StrangeMatter

@Datisi

, sorry to bother you yet again, but the rules state that town chooses the bomb experts. Is this a mistake? If not, then what happens when a scum nominates someone?

And one last question, what happens if there is a tie amongst players nominated to be bomb experts and there is more ties than spots? For instance, 5 players are tied and 4 experts are chosen.

it is not a mistake. the word "town" in that sentence refers to the collective of players, and every single player's nomination vote will be counted, regardless of their alignment.

if there are ties amongst the players nominated, they are broken by seniority; i.e. the players that got to that number of nominations first will be the experts. if, for any reason, that method of tie-breaking is not applicable, the mafia will be able to privately choose the bomb experts.

Okay, thanks. I didn't know that "town" is not referring to an alignment in this game, but to the whole of players. In that case, the previous posts by me should be discarded.

I don't think your ideas should be discarded, I think they should be improved. I think solving the mechanics is important to town winrate and is hard for scum to fake, so it helps the dayplay indirectly as well, and you seem to have some acumen for this mechanical solving.

So far I've seen three candidates for how to approach the nightplay. I think we should get a few more candidates and then focus on analyzing the implications of the top four. I've seen:

A) Defuse no bombs
B) Defuse up to three bombs
C) Each player nominates one other player as an expert

PEdit:
Tweet I don't think we've played before and I also don't recall reading any of the games you've played.

PEdit2:
Tweet we don't get to choose the "bomb defuser", only scum get to choose the "bomb defuser". Everyone gets to vote on the "Expert" who is immune from being chosen as the "bomb defuser" as well as any nightkills that nightphase

The "bomb defuser" is equal to the jailer's target as the "bomb expert" is equal to a jailer who gets to use their ability every night. The "bomb experts" are like a team of jailers where any one jailer can choose to kill the target. The team of jailers are elected by the town each dayphase in addition to the regular elimination vote and the jailer's target is chosen by the scum each twilight. If the team of jailers collectively decide to release the jailer target, the target not only lives but is given a one-shot vig ability, and the target's alignment moves one point closer to the theme's alternate win condition. Scum can choose to make themselves the jailer's target.

[Frogsterking]

PEdit: Good point Ceph

PoE Order Matters:

1. Very early townreads:
   
2. Frogsterking
   
   
3. StrangeMatter
   
   
4. Greeting
   
   
   
   Null + posted:
   
5. Cephrir
   
   
6. PookyTheMagicalBear
   
   
7. The Bulge
   
   
8. Titus
   
   
9. Lukewarm
   
   
10. catboi
    
    
11. Morning Tweet
    
    
12. Menalque
    
    
    
    Null + not posted:
    
13. Andante
    
    
14. The Praetorian
    
    
15. Dwlee99
    
    
16. Andresvmb
    
    
17. Cat Scratch Fever
    
    
    Very early scumreads:
    
18. Bell
    
    
19. GuiltyLion
    
    
20. VP Baltar

More info:
Order matters in every tier except Null + not posted. The Null + not posted is completely random, the other three tiers are ordered intentionally from #1 most townie to #19 least townie. I moved my weakest early townread (Ceph) and weakest early scumread (MorningTweet) to their respective positions withinin the Null + posted tier. Barring some exceptional dayplay in a good or bad direction I don't think the players in the townread tier should go anywhere near the bottom of the PoE and I don't think the players in the scumread tier should go anywhere near the top of the PoE. I think the Null + posted is more townie than the Null + not posted by about a hair length, moreso toward the top of the tier than at the bottom.

[Frogsterking]

VP are you OK?

[Frogsterking]

VP are you OK?

I have a packed work week, but yeah!

You think I shouldn't be able to read you?

You're scum by tone. And activity level. It could be NAI if there's something going on, but I think if there were something going on you would have said that at the beginning.

You haven't rolled scum in a while, have you VP?

[Frogsterking]

VP are you OK?

I have a packed work week, but yeah!

You think I shouldn't be able to read you?

You're scum by tone. And activity level. It could be NAI if there's something going on, but I think if there were something going on you would have said that at the beginning.

You haven't rolled scum in a while, have you VP?

I think the last time I rolled scum wasn't that long ago. Was in a multiball game that Not Mafia hosted.

What do you mean said that at the beginning? That I have a lot of work this week?

Yes. And I know what game you're referring to.

When was the last time you rolled scum before that?

[Frogsterking]

i have never seen a slot like frog's in a large theme not be town, yet. the kinda person who tried to solve all 18 other players on page 10. This would be like the third time that i can remember though.

i dont like larges

Why not?

[Frogsterking]

Yes. And I know what game you're referring to.

When was the last time you rolled scum before that?

FWIW, I don't think my work will like super impact my ability to play the game. I was more just complaining because all my colleagues took off on spring break and I'm picking up the slack.

Um, before that, IDK. I think I rolled scum once or twice during marathon games. I have a bad memory for this kind of stuff.

What's the relevance of the last time I rolled scum?

Because for most players to be vulnerable to an early tonal read I think there needs to be some kind of reason, because a given player needs to be really tonally distinct and noticeable for another human to actually be able to perceive it in my humble opinion. Even moreso in your case where I would predict your extraversion and experience safeguard you against tonal reads. I think not rolling scum in a legit game in a long time is a great reason why you might be vulnerable to an early tonal read, and because there's a great reason why an early tonal read might be possible, I'm trusting my own observation a lot more, because I'm very sure that I'm observing a distinct tonal shift from you that's self conscious and pensive.

Also the words I bolded cause me to suspect someone might be lying coming from almost any person in pretty much any situation ever, even if I said them myself.

[Frogsterking]

You can't nominate yourself, I'm here but for a short period of time before I have a flight to catch.

But I keep getting the gut feeling to be semi paranoid of Frogsterking entirely on their read on me feeling really off. I didn't get a chance to respond to that I would say even with a small scum range like mine it would be wrong to assume that I couldn't be entirely capable of more as scum, which makes me a little more suspicious of how their playing.

I understand where you're coming from I think you're a player who is vulnerable to profiling and tone reads as a rule because of your temperament, and I think reading by profiles and tone reads gets kind of shitty results in a lot of situations it just happens to be how I can play this game. I want to get a good PoE going so I'm taking some risks and trusting my read on you because I think that's what it takes for my style of play to succeed. I'm not claiming to have an in depth understanding of your game or you as a person, I'm claiming to understand a few general things about you (creative, introverted, perfectionistic) based on observations from the game we played, including things you said about yourself during and after the game, and because of those general inferences I made about your temperament I think you're playing way too open and direct here with your thoughts than you would as scum.

I think not rolling scum in a legit game in a long time

I just told you I rolled scum in this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=88831

Also the words I bolded cause me to suspect someone might be lying coming from almost any person in pretty much any situation ever, even if I said them myself.

Don't know what to tell you on that. I don't track or even think about my games after they are over. I think it's weirder when people can be like "oh, I played with so and so in such and such a game four years ago".

I probably couldn't even tell you the name of our first game together without having to look it up or think about it very hard, and that was not long ago!

VOTE: VP Baltar

VP Baltar is scum guys I'm telling you now, please sheep my vote as soon as you townlean/townread me and don't have anyone else you strongly believe are scum.

regardless i want to be an expert then bc i love ktane and i purely signed up for this minigame

HEAL: Praet

[Frogsterking]

LOL so I looked at this saw like "ORDER MATTERS" and was like, how the heck did you order the non posters... like yeah I'm town, but this sounds too good to be a true list... but then you specified the non poster order doesn't matter... (Definitely a tangent, but I had a good laugh and had to share)

Umm VP saying something about "I ask a lot of setup questions" felt really odd to me, like, I don't think anyone has a problem with the setup questions being adressed at the start of the game, I can go find the specific post if someone is dying to know, but it felt off.

Catboi vs Pooky was an interesting dynamic, umm not sure I want to share my thoughts there yet.

I thought it looked TvT but Catboi always looks town, not as sure about Pooky. That's why in my readslist I gave Pooky more credit for the interaction than Catboi.

I think VP is scum based on tone. Specifically VP is being self conscious and pensive. I think what VP is saying about trying to figure out the setup is true, I just scumread the way he comes off while going about it.

I'm trying to be methodical so to counter confbias I came up with three reasons I think I could be wrong: 1) VP is being really cautious because they want to get the setup mech right 2) something IRL like being in the middle of the work week or 3) I hate to say it but I think it's necessary for the whole self-disclosure credibility cycle, if VP hasn't rolled TPR in a while or they are just one of those people who play scummy when they get TPR intentionally or unintentionally, that could definitely explain what I'm observing as well, and it's important for me to recognize that on some level which I'm not good at doing yet.

^ This post feels so bad... Like, why are you asking someone why they don't like large games? what info from that answer do you want? Feels like you're just trying to "look busy"

I don't think this is fair at all?

Like I think it's fine to ask but I don't think the judgement is helpful in this case.

The main reason I asked is that I was genuinely curious why they didn't like large themes, the way their post trailed off at the end kind of looked like there might be a story there. If you look earlier MorningTweet and I established we probably haven't played together and don't know anything about each other, so I was more curious about MorningTweet themselves rather than specifically their reason for not liking large themes. I also don't agree that there is a specific kind of topic that's more likely to produce AI information, I think arguing about reads is helpful sometimes as well as just having organic conversation. In this case I had a question I wanted to ask to a player I just met and in the moment I was both curious and felt like it could be more fruitful for AI information than accusing them or asking about their reads.

And kinda with that, I believe it was Tweet that was like "I almost never see maf make a reads list like that this early" or something... I don't actually agree with much of that list, nor do I believe much work went into it, and if I had to guess, more work went into the format than the reads themselves, and like, if you're gonna repeat "THE ORDER MATTERS" like, why not give more on that? Ellaborate more on what makes someone slightly townier than someone else, cause you going "ORDER MATTERS ON MY RVS READS" means absolutely nothing... Like, you saying people at the bottom of your list can't possibly be town?? It feels really odd to me you're that confidint 100 posts into the game when most of the talk has been "idk how this works"

Lol I understand where you're coming from here. Thank you for noticing the effort I put into the formatting.

I repeated "order matters" because my first question whenever I see a reads list is if the order matters between the players within each category. I've also seen enough other players ask this question after a readlist gets posted that I wanted to make sure it was clear that the order did matter. I didn't post a lot of reasons because my reads aren't based on really logical deduction yet, they're almost completely based on intuition, if not completely based on intuition, so I can come up with reasons to justify why I subjectively put one player over and another, but it feels dishonest in a way to put that in the readslist because it implies the list is driven by logic, which it really isn't.

I'm also not confident in the list as much as I'm confident in my ability to create one, and in the benefit of creating one earlier, even if it's a bit rough. I'm hoping we will be able to make a townblock which can work together and construct a more accurate PoE via a readslist.

That being said, which parts of my readslist do you think could be made better?

[Frogsterking]

a few of these avatars are blending together and I skimmed some posts,

That reminds me that I had another idea I was meaning to try in these large games about posting a visual representation of the town with everyone's avatars kind of like Datisi's triangle thing. I thought it would help keep the players straight by remembering "these five people live on this street, these five people live on this street," etc.

[Frogsterking]

Why don't we just heal whoever puts out reads day 1 and go from there?

What does this mean?

Ohhhhh so the people we heal cant be killed or set as the defuse then? Ahhhh so in other words itd be much easier for scum to put themselves in the defuse seat. I think I understand you now @catboi

It's kind of up to us the pool scum picks from.. the dilemma makes a lit more sense now.

Right. So if we put all the vocal people giving reads as heal targets, scum are forced to pick a lurker.

Okay this is another suggestion worth pursuing IMO.

Titus what changes would you make to my readslist so far?

[Frogsterking]

PEDit: StrangeMatters is already out of their scum range by the way, slight townread on StrangeMatters from me.

Baffling read.

^^this

Tigger's iso is trash. Slight townread on Ceph.

weak townreads:
StrangeMatter
Cephrir

weak scumreads:
Lukewarm
GuiltyLion

I don't think I should be townread given what I've posted so far, but calling it "trash" feels a bit extreme, especially if you're gonna immediately put me in a category labeled "weak" scumreads. Why did you choose a word as inflammatory/strong as trash?

(also it's Hobbes not Tigger)

Frogster I don't care so much about the answer to this specific question anymore as you've since explained your read on StrangeMatter and I'm holistically townreading a lot of your other content, but to close the loop here did you intentionally ignore this post or did you miss it? because I agree with you that conversation can be a fruitful way to feel out people's vibes and generate intuitive reads, but if that's how you feel and you intentionally ignored me then I'd want to know why you didn't afford me the opportunity when I asked you a question

I'm sorry I didn't respond to your question while I wrote all that content addressing Andante's posts! I'm not sure how to avoid the same mistake again other than paying more attention to your slot in the future and answering both your questions now.

First of all, I called your iso garbage because at the time it had only three posts, and I thought all three of them looked scummy. Because your iso only consisted of three posts all of which appeared to me as potential early scum posts, the word "garbage" felt like a sincere way to express my intuition regarding your iso. Also, we haven't played together, but I'm familiar with you as a player, and I'm not sure if I've completely read a game you were in but I've definitely read some of your posts, and I know you're a game solver who can write big walls, so I had that expectation going into your iso, which made it seem extra worse. I know that's not fair or accurate, that's just how I was (and am) biased toward reading your slot, and it's why I said "unless there's some exceptional dayplay in a good or bad direction...", it's specifically because of slots like yours that I included that qualifier.

As for your second question, my intent wasn't to ignore your first question or your slot in general, in fact I did see your first question and was planning a response, but I prioritized responding to Andante's big post over your first question because I realized Andante had just become active in the gamethread and I wanted to see if she would respond in real time, and while I was writing my response to Andante I forgot about your question! I'm sorry again and I will try not to do it again

[Frogsterking]

Ehhh for me it was more I felt weird vibes from catboi, like too aggressive, scary... I'm not going there though, would rather spend my effort with people being non scary lol

That's good to know, I don't think that's normal? I've read some games catboi was in and I've seen them push hard as town and get scum voted out on D1, then get fearkilled N1, but in those games I don't remember them necessarily coming off scary by tone while they went about it. It's possible they do have a scary vibe sometimes early as town and I didn't read their posts closely enough in those other games I read. It just seems a little odd and potentially worth looking into because catboi tends to be townread regardless of alignment, which is something I've definitely noticed from reading their games.

First of all, I called your iso garbage because at the time it had only three posts, and I thought all three of them looked scummy. Because your iso only consisted of three posts all of which appeared to me as potential early scum posts, the word "garbage" felt like a sincere way to express my intuition regarding your iso. Also, we haven't played together, but I'm familiar with you as a player, and I'm not sure if I've completely read a game you were in but I've definitely read some of your posts, and I know you're a game solver who can write big walls, so I had that expectation going into your iso, which made it seem extra worse. I know that's not fair or accurate, that's just how I was (and am) biased toward reading your slot, and it's why I said "unless there's some exceptional dayplay in a good or bad direction...", it's specifically because of slots like yours that I included that qualifier.

Ok I know this is towards GuiltyLion and not me... but like... I'm responding

You called an ISO garbage BECAUSE it had 3 posts?? like, what?? just the logic of this... game just begun... wow. and like, you EXPECT giant walls from Guilty Lion?? like, fam... and you're saying it's not fair I ask you a question.... if we want to talk about fairness... I don't think that's a fair way to read GL, and like, since you were questioned, you're majorly backing off... so how am I not supposed to believe you were scum looking for an easy push??

idk, if you're calling an ISO garbage cause it only has 3 posts, it's like, you're just taking away from your credibility (might be the wrong word to use here) but if that's the basis for a read... why should I trust you on the others...

Not because it only had 3 posts, specifically because it only had 3 posts which is technically enough to qualify as a pattern, and they all looked like potential early scum posts. So the ratio of scummy posts in the iso was 100%, and there was technically enough posts in the iso to call it a pattern. Comparing iso to iso it would have looked better at a glance if there was just one scummy post because then there wouldn't have been enough to call it a pattern, or no posts because then they could just be doing something IRL, or 10 scummy posts and 50 non-scummy posts because the ratio wouldn't be skewed to be 100% scummy.

Don't think it's fair? I'm legit giving thoughts, and I asked you a question.. how is asking you a question not fair? It's not like I'm currently death tunneling you... I'm engaging in a civil conversation, with the intent to pick your brain for reads on the others... like, whether you're town or maf, I want to know your reads, and like if we're thinking similar things, like VP, cool!! Different things? like catboi/pooky? cool! I like other perspectives! So by you going "I don't think this is fair" it feels like you read what Tweet said, and are just repeating Tweet's thoughts instead of your own, which like, town wouldn't do... like, what? what is not fair about me asking why you care that someone doesn't like large games??

Like, who cares if there's a story to why someone doesn't like large games?? that would just distract from this game, and give no relevant information here.

You don't agree there's a specific topic for AI stuff?? Ummm ok let me phrase a question this way then, How does talking about unrelated things give reads for this game? Like, from my experience, maf if much more likely to want to solely engage in like setup speculation, a plan... instead of actual reads/engaging with people... I still don't genuinely believe you thought you could get valuable info from Tweet there for that question... but I'm not gonna keep going there cause I can definitely ask more useful questions.

On a kinda related note to you, what are your thoughts on Tweet just now suddenly getting interested in this bomb defuser stuff? like right as the pages of setup talk settled down, she's just going back to it. any thoughts there?

Well for one thing if I'm going to have to make a call on whether something Tweet says or does is scummy, I'm going to have to make some inductive leaps about them as a person and/or as a player. Inductive leaps require specific examples to make generalizations, so a story from Tweet would serve as a great specific example which can be combined with other examples later. I think anyone who wishes to get more information about Tweet's slot is going to have access to this knowledge, so I think jumping to the conclusion that there's an unsavory reason behind my question or that my question is irrelevant is kind of like killing the messenger before he even gets to deliver you the postcard.

There's also potential for AI information from the story itself, for example if in telling the story Tweet seems very focused on how a particular aspect of large themes are so unfair for scum, I might start to wonder what exactly it is that's making Tweet so concerned about how fair large themes are for scum, and why they're thinking of this story right now.

Also on a strategic level it's true that someone can reveal AI information when you pressure them about their thoughts in a very game-related way, and if someone is on guard and used to being pressured and asked about game-related information they're going to be less likely to reveal AI information if they don't want to because they're going to be monitoring what they're saying, so there is a balance between being very direct and very indirect if you're hoping to get someone to post AI content.

As for Tweet's questions about the setup, I think it could totally be scum motivated. My problem with this take is that while I think there is a high chance there's a scum motivation behind Tweet's posts, I also believe there's a high chance Tweet would ask those exact same questions about the setup if they were town too, so I don't think it's solid probabilistic evidence they're more likely to flip scum than anyone else. I've not seen Tweet post anything I believe is more likely to be posted only as scum or town on a logical level, and I have no intuition or insight into Tweet's alignment I can work with either.

[Frogsterking]

Are you saying that your original reason for scum reading me was for "fake game solving"? If so, what did you mean here

Not at all, I played with you in the wolves game during rapid weekend, Andante swapped your role and mine which she revealed right before the day ended. I was the wolf which had somehow become mechanically obvious, and as soon as Andante outted her action and you realized you had been made the wolf, you immediately started presenting some kind of game solve showing how it was mechanically possible for me to still be the scum or something, and I remember reading it and wondering if you were actually correct, because it was somewhat believable despite the circumstances.

This is the reason why I'm not townreading you for participating in the setup/mech discussion now and I'm also not townreading you for it either. I think participating in mech discussion and presenting reasonable arguments is NAI for you.

Overall I realized it was asinine to put you in my scum bucket when I found so many other slots scummy and scum were likely to be at least partially in the slots truly posting nothing.

The reason I scumread you was because you initially appeared to be pushing a strategy that was scumsided. It wasn't a deep read. When I posted my full PoE list I put you in the Null + post category, which is where you belong.

[Frogsterking]

The reason I scumread you was because you initially appeared to be pushing a strategy that was scumsided.

Can you please explain what about my suggestion was scumsided?

I think the mechanic of defusing bombs is inherently scumsided and I interpreted your initial post to be encouraging the defusal of bombs. It's not that deep, hence why my suspicion resolved itself without requiring any action on your part.

[Frogsterking]

I would kill to have more town reads right about now

[Frogsterking]

Dwlee are you town?

[Frogsterking]

I'mma go read a book now.
Tbh, I'm somehow not town reading anyone yet.
I have some eh scum reads tho.

I would kill to have more town reads right about now

Town

Bell

Lol. What are your scum reads?

[Frogsterking]

I feel like Pooky would need to have really polished scum play for their current iso to come from scum.

I feel Catboi is TMIing with their VP and Andante reads,

but maybe he's just got good reads.

Luke complaining about the catch up and overreacting to my read is a bad look.

[Frogsterking]

I volunteer to be the bomb defuser.


@Frogsterking: Uh they do have a really pol...well actually maybe not polished, I don't know how much they think about it, but if you replaced polished with "is good at scum" then yes.

Yeah see what I mean. There's a difference.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Lukewarm

debated how long I was going to wait for this. Sorry to say that Lukewarm rolled scum this game.

Hmm maybe Catboi just has good reads after all

[Frogsterking]

I feel like Pooky would need to have really polished scum play for their current iso to come from scum.

I feel Catboi is TMIing with their VP and Andante reads,

but maybe he's just got good reads.

Luke complaining about the catch up and overreacting to my read is a bad look.

What in Pooky's play this game stood out to you?

Nothing

[Frogsterking]

I feel like Pooky would need to have really polished scum play for their current iso to come from scum.

I feel Catboi is TMIing with their VP and Andante reads,

but maybe he's just got good reads.

Luke complaining about the catch up and overreacting to my read is a bad look.

ehhh the catboi read on me... very well could be from scum!catboi, but I feel like scum!catboi would be treating my slot differently here, I could be so wrong, but like, I'm not sorting him day 1 in this large game, he has seen my very best scum games, as well as a lot of my town, so ehhh not really sold on a "that read is TMI!!" type thing, nor do I think that's a path worth going down right now

I actually was just reflecting that Dwlee could be scum putting you on tilt intentionally.

I feel like catboi is probably town.

[Frogsterking]

Like at all lol

I scumread you in the last datisi game. I think our previous game together I probably townread you? This isn't a super longstanding pattern like you're making it out to be

I want to know which games Dwlee is referring to here.

*scum can you please nom Frogster king first as bomb guy.

Pedit: feels fake.

Bell can you explain what you were attempting to communicate here?

[Frogsterking]

Actually I guess you probably mean that nothing scummy stood out to you. I still don't see how that thought connects with how Pooky would have to be playing in polished manner though

They're making a bunch of shit posts and outting reads and stuff. If they're scum then

hey you know what I just remembered pooky probably has a temperament that's specifically good for this kind of scum play. And they've played a lot of games so they've had opportunity to practice.

I think I'm going to hold off on townreading pooky.

[Frogsterking]

Jeeze, I left for only about 2-3 hours and several new pages and far behind.

To answer that question The Buldge, right now I don’t at the moment really disagree with their reads, but since I don’t know much about it. Granted I was catching up and saw him Frogs talking about GuiltyLion and I really don’t agree with the justification behind that read.

Oh no Strange you didn't roll scum again and wifom me did you?

[Frogsterking]

Frogster here feels so different from his scumgame in Internal Affairs that he's probably my strongest townread right now. What's caught your eye there, Andante?

I'm hoping you're town here too Cat, it will help out my PoE a lot.

Like at all lol

I scumread you in the last datisi game. I think our previous game together I probably townread you? This isn't a super longstanding pattern like you're making it out to be

I want to know which games Dwlee is referring to here.

*scum can you please nom Frogster king first as bomb guy.

Pedit: feels fake.

Bell can you explain what you were attempting to communicate here?

previous game? uhhh I believe there's 2 recent nes that come to mind
jk just the 1
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88949

ahhh see, everything just blurs together, but sure, funny once, repeat it? gets old

I think I understand but I don't really see it myself, I think Dwlee this game looks like a bad imitation of Dwlee's townplay from Infernal Affairs. I think Dwlee is a good candidate for the scum bucket.

[Frogsterking]

Frogster here feels so different from his scumgame in Internal Affairs that he's probably my strongest townread right now. What's caught your eye there, Andante?

the only difference is literally the fact he didn't play infernal affairs... then got very behind... like here, game just started, of course he's on top of it, just like that game...

That's fair, but not really enough to sway my read on him. I'd argue that falling behind in the first place is scum indicative for him.

How did you realize that?

[Frogsterking]

Andante can you post your updated reads list with the explanations?

[Frogsterking]

Frogster here feels so different from his scumgame in Internal Affairs that he's probably my strongest townread right now. What's caught your eye there, Andante?

the only difference is literally the fact he didn't play infernal affairs... then got very behind... like here, game just started, of course he's on top of it, just like that game...

That's fair, but not really enough to sway my read on him. I'd argue that falling behind in the first place is scum indicative for him.

How did you realize that?

You were ellitelling a lot as scum, which I pointed out in Internal Affairs.

Speaking of which, did you guys know we can't point out ellitell anymore? I got a warning for that post lol.

Hmm

Frogster here feels so different from his scumgame in Internal Affairs that he's probably my strongest townread right now. What's caught your eye there, Andante?

the only difference is literally the fact he didn't play infernal affairs... then got very behind... like here, game just started, of course he's on top of it, just like that game...

That's fair, but not really enough to sway my read on him. I'd argue that falling behind in the first place is scum indicative for him.

hasn't had the chance to fall behind yet tbh, that's where I was mostly like, I'll sort him later

and I think @frogs,
yeah I know, I'm not saying Dwlee is lock town, I'm just saying I'm not putting Dwlee as lock scum for annoying me there, I mean I think I'm voting them, so like... yeah idk what thought of mine you're wanting there, like, Dwlee is repeating something they've done before, only this time, that's all they've done... so yeah I scum lean Dwlee over Town lean, but I'm not gonna scream for a dwlee lim, I have 8 unsorted people...

CSF is joining the possible town pool next time I update that list

I thought you just said you were about to update the list again

[Frogsterking]

I wonder what the odds are Cat just popped in to pocket both of us by saying exactly what we want to hear

[Frogsterking]

HEAL: andante
HEAL: frog

i'm masons with myself

Can you elaborate on this?

[Frogsterking]

I feel like Pooky would need to have really polished scum play for their current iso to come from scum.

I feel Catboi is TMIing with their VP and Andante reads,

but maybe he's just got good reads.

Luke complaining about the catch up and overreacting to my read is a bad look.

ehhh the catboi read on me... very well could be from scum!catboi, but I feel like scum!catboi would be treating my slot differently here, I could be so wrong, but like, I'm not sorting him day 1 in this large game, he has seen my very best scum games, as well as a lot of my town, so ehhh not really sold on a "that read is TMI!!" type thing, nor do I think that's a path worth going down right now

I actually was just reflecting that Dwlee could be scum putting you on tilt intentionally.

I feel like catboi is probably town.

I'm suggesting you read this while watching from the scum PT and decided it could be an effective entrance to say both andante and I are town and that dwlee is scum, with the goal of pocketing both Andante and I simultaneously. It could be a smart scum move.

Like your slot is coming off too good to be true so I'm wondering if I'm being played here or if you're the obvtown slot I've been looking for.

[Frogsterking]

524 was @ Cat by the way

[Frogsterking]

HEAL: frogster
HEAL: Greeting
HEAL: catboi
HEAL: Andante

Like so far Cat's slot is just good take after good take so I'm getting townie paranoia and wondering if Cat is obv townie or if I'm being pocketed.

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to give it some time first because I don't know how much of a tactical player Cat can be as scum but I think Cat could be lock town.

I could see Bell and Frogs as partners actually.... oh we're gonna go into dangerous territory real soon... when I get locked into team reads...

Please don't partner hunt before there are flips. This is a waste of time and brain power.

but I like partner hunting so much more!!! like, there's 4 whole mafia... so 4 people are here with the knowledge like "ok, gotta vote anyone outside these 3..."

As logical as that sounds, I don’t agree that it works, especially with 19 players, and the scum can end up busing when absolutely needed, so it’s just highly unreliable.

Hey Strange can you please assuage my fears and post a reads list so I can lock town you?

[Frogsterking]

Dwlee I'm tempted not to answer your question because I get the sense 530 is cherry picked.

[Frogsterking]

Dwlee I'm tempted not to answer your question because I get the sense 530 is cherry picked.

LOL
VOTE: Frogster king
This a scum claim. Tell me what I did in infernal affairs that you think I'm poorly imitating?

Fine; I think you're poorly imitating your D1 play from infernal affairs.

[Frogsterking]

Okay so yea Frogster is scum.

For context for those who weren't in infernal affairs... I died N1. So duh the only thing he could compare would be my D1. But this is presented as an answer when it's the vaguest possible thing he could say. And now he is gone and not actually explaining what was different because it was made up to push me.

Dude I was eating garlic bread chill. Not answering your question within 20 minutes after you posted it is NAI.

[Frogsterking]

Dwlee I'm tempted not to answer your question because I get the sense 530 is cherry picked.

LOL
VOTE: Frogster king
This a scum claim. Tell me what I did in infernal affairs that you think I'm poorly imitating?

Fine; I think you're poorly imitating your D1 play from infernal affairs.

Okay and what was in my D1 play that isn't here?

Okay so yea Frogster is scum.

For context for those who weren't in infernal affairs... I died N1. So duh the only thing he could compare would be my D1. But this is presented as an answer when it's the vaguest possible thing he could say. And now he is gone and not actually explaining what was different because it was made up to push me.

In infernal affairs you had good reads and were scum hunting. It took you longer to get reads and they were pretty accurate and it seemed like they had some thought put into them. Yeah you tunneled Andante and that was bad but you were correct about Scorpius and I, and it took some bickering between you and Andante for you to actually tunnel them, it didn't just happen right away. Here it seems like you chose targets based on who you wanted to push and then made up bad reasons to justify your targets.

Also in this game you seem kind of like a troll and like you're hoping to get tone read based on your bravura. I feel like you're a little a trolly in the D1 of infernal affairs but you also come off as competent and your tone changes between your posts.

[Frogsterking]

Why were you scumreading Andante then, dwlee?

The last paragraph?

That people are playing around her like this is actually what makes me think she is scum.

She is actually townier as scum and that everyone townreads her when she is normally a controversial day one slot is very scum-indicative imo

I'm not sure this really tracks. This reason feels more like something that was made up after the fact.

I went back and reread the posts between Andante's first post and your first post. There were, if I'm being generous, 3 [1][2][3] townreads and one possible scumread on Andante before you voted for her.

From whom did you get the impression that people were playing around her?

Okay I'm going to locktown Cat and I'll have no regrets about it.

[Frogsterking]

Good night Strange, I see what you mean about 546.

[Frogsterking]

wish i rolled mason with someone else

Yeah I feel it my imagination gets like that too

[Frogsterking]

So what's your point I have a terrible rationale for correctly guessing you rolled scum this game? Guilty as charged.

[Frogsterking]

Dwlee you slipped an associative tell on one of your partners. If you look through your iso you'll see what I'm referring to.

[Frogsterking]

Ceph is telling the truth though Dwlee, if you're town what do you think is the real reason we're tunneling each other?

[Frogsterking]

Dwlee I think my push on you was obviously kind of shit, I'm thinking maybe your push on Andante was obviously kind of shit too, and we're both townies motivated by similar things?

And Ceph is the real scum here for trying to pocket me, TMIing us as town and staying out of the main conflicts?

[Frogsterking]

IDK you were trying to pocket me and stay out of the conflict though?

[Frogsterking]

If u want to feel pocketed that is your prerogative my dude/frog

lol

[Frogsterking]

S2g no one will ever just let me do a thing without some genius trying to put me on the defensive for trying

Aww

[Frogsterking]

Ceph seems townie

HEAL: Ceph

[Frogsterking]

Lmao

[Frogsterking]

Uhh I have a massively unfinished list so people not mentioned are essentially no clues or I have had the chance to look into.

Not willing to vote out
Andante

Would be fine with voting out.
Frogsterking
Dwlee (Partial paranoia but he just feels like how he played in Mini 2265 and I can never get a read on him.

This is a weird list. Why are any of these people where they are?

Wrong, it's a strange list.

Good night Strange, I see what you mean about 546.

wish i rolled mason with someone else

Yeah I feel it my imagination gets like that too

Froggy, why are you calling out Ceph for fluff and then encouraging the same fluff? Don't make me question my read on you pls.

You misread because I wasn't the player who called out Ceph for fluff posting.

[Frogsterking]

But then they say something along the lines of these town slots are not going to be in the POE and scumreads plus nominating me indicates believing I am likely town here, which just doesn't add up.

That being said I like my vote here
VOTE: Frogsterking

Strange I'm sorry this is the first time you've been townread as town on D1.

[Frogsterking]

601 looks like a scumpost to me.

[Frogsterking]

@Catboi

I'm not backing down on my read on VP, VP still seems off to me.

[Frogsterking]

Nice one, Luke

[Frogsterking]

You misread because I wasn't the player who called out Ceph for fluff posting.

Isn't your 549 agreeing with cat?

Sorry, strange, not cat

Oh, I guess that's true, Strange also pointed out Ceph wasn't really solving, and in my interaction with Ceph he implied that he had been solving, I like the approach of looking fluffy to lower people's guard, I would play that way if I had better social skills.

[Frogsterking]

Run on sentence because I'm running late!

[Frogsterking]

Menalque..I wonder what kind of game you're playing at here..

[Frogsterking]

In fact null reads who think they can do good work in a hood is exactly who I want to vote in today?

My preference is mainly for people we don't want to see potentially exploded on night 1. Giving null reads control over whether someone lives or dies seems un-ideal. The only point of concern would be someone like frogster who expressed a desire to reflexively kill any defuser. (I do think frogster is likely town at this point, contrary to my first impulse, but don't feel like going into detail right now).

That was an idea I floated out based on the setup spec i did before gamestart. I've been an advocate since the beginning of examining the top few approaches. Right now I'm more about killing most defusers without being reflexive about it.

[Frogsterking]

Ceph were you one of the players who wanted to try and defuse most of the bombs?

[Frogsterking]

If we put in the 8 towniest players today we will have slim pickings day 2 and 3

That's why I'm proposing we not fully do that

I proposed a 3-1 mix per bomb to box in potentially scummy people, but leave us some townreads for the next phase.

I probably should actually do some analysis later and make a suggestion on the 8 and their order

If we put in the 8 towniest players today we will have slim pickings day 2 and 3

That's why I'm proposing we not fully do that

I'm interested in exploring these ideas further. I'm not worried about having slim pickings on D2 and D3 because I think it will help with scum hunting and force out more AI information.

[Frogsterking]

I don't have 8 town leans yet, but
HEAL: Titus
HEAL: Andante
HEAL: Tweetie
HEAL: StrangeMatter
HEAL: Greeting

VOTE: Pooky

Can we consider the likelihood one of these picks was scum?

[Frogsterking]

Had I rolled scum the plan would be something like put up two buddies to defuse the bomb night 1, possibly bussing a weaker teammate to position them if necessary, send myself as defuser night 2 or 3, maybe stall a night or two but then have a teammate repeat as the defuser if they're still sufficiently townread

I want to bring this up here too. Seems good for considering the drawbacks of a defusal heavy plan.

[Frogsterking]

Yup that's why i found it interessting as i saw it, there were at least a few

Me having a rough time getting mech is just baseline. Same with bitching about large games... check, yup.

pedit @ catboi

Morning tweet im still having a hard time understanding you. How do you motivate yourself to post when you roll town vs roll scum?

This, I think is town:

HEAL: Morning Tweet

HEAL: StrangeMatter

HEAL: Frogsterking

There is definitely scum in:

Lukewarm

,

Cephrir

and

VP Baltar

.

HURT: Cephrir

VOTE: Cephrir

Plus, I don't trust

Andante

, she has a playstyle which I can never read well.

HURT: Andante

Can you explain the tweet read?

Ceph were you one of the players who wanted to try and defuse most of the bombs?

Some, as long as it's still mathematically impossible to lose to the scum wincon

Yeah i remember that plan i liked that idea

[Frogsterking]

They weren't even hiding it, how do you not catch on, lol

Does that influence your read of them in any way?

Yeah, scum, there's like no attempt at solving.

[Frogsterking]

781 is good, IDK with Tweet, I might put them in the middle of the null posters.

Here's something I want to address moving forward:

scum can't just strongarm their wincon without the majority of them being widely townread. it would be very easy to catch on and simply eliminate scum and put a hiatus on defusing bombs.

Realistically you're going to be stacking the towncore as the expert on night 1, or at least you should. The players outside who are eligible to be defusers are going to be somewhere outside that, either in POE territory or light townleans. I don't really think town's collective ability is good enough to have all the scum players in a POE by the end of day 1 unless the mod rolled an absolute chump scumteam, meaning any scum team member who is somewhere in the territory of null to a townlean would be a reasonably "safe" pick for defuser.

I want to know what viable compositions of scumteams exist in this playerlist who could get PoEd out by D1.

It's a good point and I think there's more to calculate than "nah town bad."

[Frogsterking]

for the first time ever im having trouble keeping up with a large games posts and im following my own advice on how to at least stay engage. Ngl it isnt a bad method

andante town
Lukewarm scum
vp still scum
Frogster town
Cephrir scum

just need one more, maybe bell randed scum again lul

HEAL: Frog

HEAL: Andante

HEAL: MT

HEAL: GL

HEAL: Titus

This isn't how Koba solves from what I've seen, Koba always ends up with too many town reads.

I think it's worth considering there's a scum in this heal list and/or Luke's heal list.

I think Praet + Luke/Fire + VP + ?

Maybe GL or Dwlee or someone.

[Frogsterking]

I mean Praet + Fire(Luke) + VP + GL seems most reasonable to me.

[Frogsterking]

Titus can you post a full readslist yet?

[Frogsterking]

StrangeMatter Frog vote is odd,

It's a little odd.. you could even say..

It's strange

[Frogsterking]

i would actually be an amazing bomb expert because I have great ideas about mixed state nash equilibria and i have a phd in game theory

LOL you'll be an amazing bomb expert because you have a PhD in game theory ohhhh man. Because if I can't get good instructions for how to defuse the bomb, at least I can have all my questions answered about the prisoners dilemma before I die.

[Frogsterking]

it's tru

heal me and i'll teach you a thing or two about how to play mind games and interrogation

Hmm tempting tempting

[Frogsterking]

I think it's worth considering there's a scum in this heal list and/or Luke's heal list.

I think Praet + Luke/Fire + VP + ?

Maybe GL or Dwlee or someone.

I think Dwlee/Tweet are better suspects than Praet at the moment

Is this a post town!GL makes?

[Frogsterking]

HEAL: Bell

I have a specific reason for this

[Frogsterking]

It sort of sucks that the people I would usually auto-nom if there was even a whiff of towniness from them to bomb advise, are either actively scummy or under performing.

I mean that's a red flag, assuming they're not also completely incompetent as scum, that's what their scum game is goinv to look like. Who are you referring to besides GL?

[Frogsterking]

Is this because you don't want me to be the bomb defuser.
Because I hate you if that's the reason.

If I wanted you to be the defuser I wouldn't have nominated you to be an expert.

[Frogsterking]

Is this because you don't want me to be the bomb defuser.
Because I hate you if that's the reason.

If I wanted you to be the defuser I wouldn't have nominated you to be an expert.

Oh misread. Yeah you called it actually

[Frogsterking]

Luke.

I'm too paranoid of Catboi to ever nom them early unless they're utterly obvtown.
They're pretty townie this game.
But yeah,
no.

Is it expected value to just throw caution to the wind and put them in the town core now? Yes I think so.

[Frogsterking]

HURT: Bell

I have a specific reason for this as well

[Frogsterking]

We need more full readslists guys so we can synthesize them together.

Titus maybe just post yours, it's more like there aren't enough chefs in the kitchen here.

PEdit:

Uhh yes I'll go with that explanation. If you want me to townread you though you'll need to post a good readslist.

[Frogsterking]

Uh, I'm good thanks. The only speed I solve at is the speed of Bell. No point forcing it.
I'm comfortable killing fire's slot.

Is there any reason you can't post your 3 most confident reads?

[Frogsterking]

Oh was that what you were asking?

Andante: Town.
Greeting:Town.
Bell: town
Fireisredsir: Scum

You interpreted me correctly in that I asked for a full solve the first time, and I respect it's not helpful for me to try and force you to make a full solve, so I asked for a few reads because it sounded like you do have reads to share just not a full solve.

[Frogsterking]

I think fire is a good D1 execution by the way. I'm looking to compromise vote on fire EoD if this VP wagon doesn't take off.

[Frogsterking]

HEAL: Cat Scratch Fever I can't remember if I did this yet and I want Cat Scratch to be a part of the town core.

[Frogsterking]

Catboi can I get your thoughts on my current solve of VP + fire + Praet + GL

[Frogsterking]

Catboi can I get your thoughts on my current solve of VP + fire + Praet + GL

I think trying to heroolve day 1 is silly. I think GL is more likely town than not. VP Baltar is still...not bad vibes? I feel like I see him get wrongly suspected every game as town.

I'm silly. I also think it's helpful to try early.

I think Cat, Cat, Andante, me and Greeting all townread each other, is there anyone else you would add to that list?

[Frogsterking]

I townread pooky now too

I also prefer CSF to help differentiate from catboi

Fair enough. I really want to townread Pooky, I'm a little paranoid about his slot though. Do you townread Ceph?

[Frogsterking]

Strange, Bulge, Menalque, Mala(Praet) I guess and Andres are starting to look pretty bad by PoE and it's going to keep getting worse for them, unless I'm mistaken about how often there's a low activity scum slot in a large theme.

[Frogsterking]

Speak o the devil

[Frogsterking]

greeting / frog are more likely than town EOP4

Huh

[Frogsterking]

Strange, Bulge, Menalque, Mala(Praet) I guess and Andres are starting to look pretty bad by PoE and it's going to keep getting worse for them, unless I'm mistaken about how often there's a low activity scum slot in a large theme.

excuse me

i just replaced in.

You're excused.

[Frogsterking]

Ah I see, end of page 4. That tracks.

[Frogsterking]

GL is there any reason you can't townsend Menalque for me?

[Frogsterking]

Ceph you've rolled scum a lot so you might have good intuition to what it's like to play scum in this gamestate right?

[Frogsterking]

Ceph you've rolled scum a lot so you might have good intuition to what it's like to play scum in this gamestate right?

Tbh I'm not sure theres anything particularly interesting about this game state so I'd just be trying to look town

Titus - Want you to prove your towniness. You're too good to have said really nothing of substance by this point. Show me you don't belong in the basement!

I do right now.

I have no interest in changing my playstyle to appease.

I'm better with data, and I'll vote to get it.

AMA Tomorrow unless you wagon me.

Titus I'm going to be synthesizing the readslists of players who I don't scum read tonight. Only like three or four players are posting readslists right now and one of them is my scum read.

I understand your point about having too many chefs in the kitchen, and I also think you could be a positive inspiration now for this town to continue on with the scum hunting.

Please post a damn readslists!

[Frogsterking]

Ceph you've rolled scum a lot so you might have good intuition to what it's like to play scum in this gamestate right?

Tbh I'm not sure theres anything particularly interesting about this game state so I'd just be trying to look town

First of all, what should we be looking for then if scum are just trying to get townread?

Second;
So if the options are low-med-high activity level and low-med-high successfully receiving townreads, where do you guess the scum team is at now and where do you think they're going?

[Frogsterking]

Have wallpost read lists come back into fashion? Maybe I'll post one later

Yes! I have an idea based on Francis Galton's guessing experiment.

[Frogsterking]

If there isn't anything interesting going on I'm assuming the activity levels of scum are about to drop alongside the median activity levels of town.

[Frogsterking]

Ceph you've rolled scum a lot so you might have good intuition to what it's like to play scum in this gamestate right?

Tbh I'm not sure theres anything particularly interesting about this game state so I'd just be trying to look town

First of all, what should we be looking for then if scum are just trying to get townread?

Second;
So if the options are low-med-high activity level and low-med-high successfully receiving townreads, where do you guess the scum team is at now and where do you think they're going?

Well, not everyone plays the way I do. But I mostly work with gut and tone reads until I see a scum flip

No idea. I think people put too much energy into trying to guess that sort of thing - it becomes a lot more interesting when you have a scum flip or two and can start to get a sense for what their overall strategy may have been

Oh yeah by the way; I'm asking you to use your imagination to assume your current read flips scum and work with the gamestate from there to deduce another one, not just work with the surface level information we already have.

[Frogsterking]

Have wallpost read lists come back into fashion? Maybe I'll post one later

Yes! I have an idea based on Francis Galton's guessing experiment.

im sure that guy never had any bad ideas

Nice one, fire.

[Frogsterking]

702 from fire makes me think Menalque is town and MorningTweet is scum.

My current solve is fire + Mala + VP + MorningTweet

[Frogsterking]

You got the reference. Though i have no idea where the reference originated.

Also cephrir continues to bleh, GL continues to be bleh, bulge is bleh, the fire guy is bleh.
Bleh bleh bleh.

Damn I forget about GL. Catboi thinks they're town i remember.

[Frogsterking]

I know it sounds crazy! But I feel like avis can have an unconscious bias influence on how snippy people think you're being. People legit call me scummy all the time in games as town, and I think part of it is my avatar.

This is enormous cog dis by the way.

"People legit call me scummy all the time in games as town..."

I've seen VP make comments like this in a completed game as town I think, he said it very differently like "i think people scum read me more often because of my avatar." That's it.

[Frogsterking]

Oh yeah by the way; I'm asking you to use your imagination to assume your current read flips scum and work with the gamestate from there to deduce another one, not just work with the surface level information we already have.

We have different definitions of information.

I don't really have scumreads so this is a bit impossible to answer.

You just said you scumread the person you're voting.

[Frogsterking]

I know it sounds crazy! But I feel like avis can have an unconscious bias influence on how snippy people think you're being. People legit call me scummy all the time in games as town, and I think part of it is my avatar.

This is enormous cog dis by the way.

"People legit call me scummy all the time in games as town..."

I've seen VP make comments like this in a completed game as town I think, he said it very differently like "i think people scum read me more often because of my avatar." That's it.

Uhh I'm still looking but I may have hallucinated this. I'm still looking for the post I remembered but until I can link it consider this a false alarm.

[Frogsterking]

Oh yeah by the way; I'm asking you to use your imagination to assume your current read flips scum and work with the gamestate from there to deduce another one, not just work with the surface level information we already have.

We have different definitions of information.

I don't really have scumreads so this is a bit impossible to answer.

You just said you scumread the person you're voting.

One isn't enough to answer your question tho

Add your pick of mala or vp then.

[Frogsterking]

wrote some shit out like some kid who hasn't done his homework and is busy trying to write it all out b4 the teacher shows up.

Hmm this feels relevant to my life

HEAL: Pooky

[Frogsterking]

it's hard to explain but my female alts are not really me - they're just very different.

They're the manifestation of Pooky's darkside. Pooky's shadow self portrayed to himself as his anima embodied and to others as a female alt.

I'm shit posting a lot. Maybe I should stop.

I'm sorry, why would you stop town spewing and game solving again?

[Frogsterking]

I kind of want CSF/Andante/Catboi/Me for my bomb team

An aside:
Pooky Posse, Pooky personality cult, Pookybomb squad.
sigh. I shouldn't realy see anything into that, but it always triggers me a little when I see him do that, jut due to how many times they've done it as scum, even though I think they do it as town(?) too.

I like Pooky Personality Cult for Towncore A. Who's even in Towncore B?

Frogster/Greeting/Cephrir/Titus for the other team?

I feel uncertain about Towncore B's alignment and yet somehow completely willing to roll with them anyway. I heavily suggest they post a readslist ASAP (so I can use their reads for my synthesized list and for there to be enough time in the day for scum to be uncertain how much has changed) and that they fill out the survey when I post it.

Brain boiling from difficult work week. Emotional lability that I don't quite understand, sort of feeling like I want to cry just out of sheer, "I can't really process all of this." stuff.
I can't articulate it well. I'm just trying to emotionally regulate I think by putting myself down and to bed when I'm done for the day and feel myself about to go off into thoughtless comments or something.

That's a good call. If you're in a creative mindset instead of a logical one do you have any name suggestions for Towncore B?


The trios going in night 2 and 3 can be Towncore C team and Towncore D team respectively, and they can both have their own names as well. I feel like I'm in Zero Time Dilemma.

[Frogsterking]

Lol! Did you pull an allnighter for work?

[Frogsterking]

I was actually thinking Enchant would be funny to have as a bomb expert HEAL: Enchant

Do we have any name suggestions for the Town Core B team yet? So far it's looking like CSF/Greeting/Frog/ ?? one more spot.

[Frogsterking]

Alright so far the working names for Towncore A team and Towncore B team are "Pooky Personality Cult" [Andante, catboi, Pooky, ??] and "Plan B" [CSF, Greeting, Frog, ??] respectively.

HURT: Enchant CSF is town telling again, by the way. I'm actually fine with Enchant being an expert N1, not in love with the idea but fine with it, and overall I respect the wisdom of the B team, hence the redaction of my nomination.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: andres

Alright dude time to come out of the scum PT and show us the scum range resulting from your 90% town roll rate or whatever it was last year. I know you're here because a little birdy told me so you may as well come out and talk. You know you need to eventually and it will feel better to get it over with now. You didn't even do poorly D1 in our last game, you convinced me you were town, it's your own reticence getting in the way now.

[Frogsterking]

PSA:

vote andres please. 6 posts, times up.

[Frogsterking]

I know fire is like 9/10 times scum at this point but andres is too. Kill andres first because he's going to be so annoying coaching the scum team through the mechanics of the setup. As in NOT the garbage "mech" he posted in the game thread, like pretending he's too dumb to understand the rules of the setup.

Don't be fooled by the crap posts in his iso, this guy can like write soliloquies in his sleep, he just can't play scum during the dayphase because he didn't roll scum for like a year. He's going to help the scum team figure out good mechanical plays at night and lurk out during all the dayphases and make the game a lot more difficult for town than necessary.

fire also won't stop scum spewing after 66 posts and has already done irreparable damage to the scum team; why help the scum team out now by silencing him, that's not our job as town. Just let fire sit here and suffer until D2 or D3, it was his choice to infiltrate DATS inc.

[Frogsterking]

I’m back later tonight. I need a few hours to read everything.

K. This is his time; where is he?

[Frogsterking]

Another sarcastic one liner I've never seen that before from an outted obv scum while I'm game solving

[Frogsterking]

i agree i think i have done irreparable damage to the scum team, thank you frog

Go back in your scum PT and tell andres to get in here and try to force a town tell or two

[Frogsterking]

Fire tell andres I'm waiting please. kthx

I’m back later tonight. I need a few hours to read everything.

[Frogsterking]

fire I'm only interested in talking to andres. I would be interested in hearing you towncase yourself but I doubt you can remember what you were thinking when you wrote 702.

[Frogsterking]

702 fire. Only part of your iso that gives me second thought. If we can go through it together calmly in good faith I'm willing to consider that 1/10 chance your town.

[Frogsterking]

Thank you fire. Let's just chill. TvTs happen all the time, I'm like the worst at it. I'm a crazy tinfoiler I know, it's probably my fault. I just need to ask some questions so I can see your thought process to verify it's not made up.

I'm going to post my first few questions and go put on some tea. I'll be back in like 5 minutes.

- first few pages had so much mech discussion zzzzz im gonna ignore that until later maybe
- greeting prob town for getting excited about a way to break the game that is obv wrong
- vp sounds normalish, idk bout the votes on him

Can you elaborate a little bit here about what you saw when you first started reading the thread? How sure were you at first that Greeting was town, and what made you doubt the votes on VP?

[Frogsterking]

Oh andres, what a surprise! You're just in time for the party.

[Frogsterking]

We're having tea andres! Do you like tea?

- some people are really efforting it up and i bet they're not all town
- lukewarm being confused by frog in 397 kinda feels fake, but who isn't confused by frog sometimes
- ayyy catboi's secret read is lukewarm, i like this development. locktown

Now fire, this part of 702 confused me quite a bit. I imagine catboi being locktown was hyperbole, and you're in lukewarms slot, but you wrote this part before replacing into the slot I think I remember you saying. Am I correct on all that? And which players were you referring to as efforting it up and not being town?

[Frogsterking]

I’ll just post my notes. So you’ll see where my heads been at.

can you give some thoughts while you're here

don't be like bulge and say you've caught up partway and then say nothing and disappear again

That's right andres! I have faith that fire will help me wagon you if you disappear again.

Let's just have a nice chat and figure out where your heads been at. I think you'll be pleased to know, andres, that you also have a chance to convince me you're town.

Pedit:

Ah, let's see. fire, no rush, please answer my questions in 1529 when you feel ready. I can multitask with you and andres here. Maybe we will all townread each other and we can be Town Core B! "Plan B" it's called.

[Frogsterking]

35 - Good early reaction by catboi. Also thought early thoughts on setup were sufficiently pro-Town.
71 - Logic here from Lukewarm is exactly the same as mine in the early going.
85 - Greeting probably put too much effort trying to think of ways to break the game in favor of the Town to just be straight up Scum.

Yes, now andres I have similar questions for you that I had for fire on this first three.

The early setup spec was sufficiently pro town, what do you mean by this?

Here you say the logic from Lukewarm is exactly the same as yours in the early going. How does this make you feel?

Now you're also townreading Greeting it seems for their early ways to try and break the game. How certain were you that Greeting was town when you saw this?

[Frogsterking]

Okay, I'm starting to understand now fire.

- 487 gutread tweet is scummy
- as of 546ish, strangematter feels... floaty? like she's not really engaged w/ the game just kinda existing and not poking out too much. potentially sus
- as of 561 frog is kinda making me want to yeet him so I don't really blame dwlee that much. but i think frog is more likely town

Now here I feel like there is a lot of insight and it kind of all just comes tumbling out at the same time. Dwlee is a townread of yours? And Strange is a scum lean would you say? Would you say that Strange is comparable to Tweet here, are Strange and Tweet different kinds of scummy or different levels of scummy?

[Frogsterking]

151 - This is the answer I expected initially.
169 - I like this read from Frogsterking. At this point, I think I judged the slot too early, because I very much vibe with their take on VPB.

[I do not agree with the attacks by The Bulge and Andante on catboi. I’m starting to feel catboi is solidly Town.]

249 - I actually like the logic behind Titus’ post here.

Okay now here I'm curious because I've been wracking my brain about the Titus slot, and I've felt that Titus strength is as a creative player, but here it seems you value her for her logic, am I right? Now are you finding Titus townie here because of her logic? It just says that you like her logic, not whether or not you believe this to be AI for Titus.

I have a similar question about your read on myself and on catboi. Do you townread me here or do you just like my read, and what do you mean catboi being solidly town? The way this is worded it almost looks like you townread catboi more because of Andante and The Bulge's attacks on them, is this because you scumread The Bulge and/or Andante?

[Frogsterking]

Okay, I'm potentially feeling better about fire here, I think we're got a good thing going. HEAL: fire

- menalque feels like 164 was posted out of feeling obligated to do so. but town can feel that too. it still gives me the hmmmms
- 256 could be scummy from lion. but i kinda feel good vibes from prae's vp vote right after, for some reason
- andante is scummy as of 288

Now here we have a lot of a scum reads, and no offense, but this take on Menalque 164 is a bit hedge. Are you townreading Menalque or scum reading Menalque, also what do you mean by the hmmms?

The reads between Lion and Prae stemming from 256 seem to share a thought here, is this an associative read? Like Lion is scum if Prae is town?

And finally at this point you say andante is scummy, how did feel about Andante's posts while you were spectating the game compared to once you were in it?

[Frogsterking]

@CSF

This is why I'm here

Remember this is a game where players are instructed to lie. I've picked up on something that you didn't which is why I'm pursuing this. You're quick CSF and there is a part of the solve I'm missing and I could use your sharp eye here.

Now I'm warming up to andres a little bit, but andres only had 6 posts before he showed up tonight, and I'm not ready to give him a heal just yet.

122 - Can’t disagree with Menalque’s vote here.
137 - I can’t say I agree with this set of reads, but it could just be because I’m viewing the game very differently from Frogsterking.
148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from VPB. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.

I have some questions for you about this part andres which remind me a little bit of my questions for fire. Menalque seems to really catch your eye here; why is that? And the read on VPB feels like a bit of a hedge. Is this a scum lean on VPB, or would you be prepared to join the wagon on VPB based on this response, if you were more active in the game?

[Frogsterking]

But I'm going to be pushing at fire to die again soon and I'm simply not going to stop.

I'm going to push someone else today and not going to stop. You can push fire when I'm dead.

[Frogsterking]

99 - This feels like too strong of a read too early for me. I have a hard time seeing how you can make any argument about VPB’s meta so quickly. I have not been liking frogsterking’s posting thus far.
113 - I don’t understand this at all, but just because I don’t agree, doesn’t make Titus Scum. I just wouldn’t trust them at all.
121 - I agree with the observation made by GuiltyLion here - the use of the word trash by frogsterking is too strong. I do have to say, I think my style clashes with Frogsterking, so I have to be careful about not falling for that trap.

Now andres I have some really specific questions about a couple more parts of your notes.

You agree with the observation made by GuiltyLion, but do you find it AI? What was it about the strength of my words that drew your attention here, is it AI for me?

It seems like you warmed up to my idea about VPB, or at least to the idea about scumreading VPB. Do you feel like I was onto something here with my reason for reading VPB, or do you think I just got lucky by random chance?

Also, it seems like you had some very conflicting views about my slot and Titus' throughout the course of the game. Was there any reason you couldn't have asked us or at least me about some of these things you disagreed with? It's not like I haven't been online through all hours of the night before.

[Frogsterking]

@Frogsterking the above explains why I haven’t voted yet.

Okay, not only is it 3am for me, I need to keep reading. I’ll be back later. But I’ll try a little harder to stay on top of this one.

Fair enough andres, thanks for being a good sport. You too fire. HURT: fire

[Frogsterking]

1584

for bonus points andres if you're feeling up for it.

[Frogsterking]

1584

bonus points going until I get back with my tea

[Frogsterking]

I'm not sure if you're posting like town either, but I do think it's a little weird yeah. I think how you're talking to me is odd because it starts with some general premise about how you think mafia works and then you apply it poorly to my posts in addition to straw manning me. Like a normal person, I poke people until they start making sense. Or they don't. Or I forget.

That would be because he's scum, dear Watson.

[Frogsterking]

Damn I really wish I got through more of andres notes with him.

[Frogsterking]

371 - I

genuinely

dislike this take from Bell.

any comment here?

[Frogsterking]

Andres I have another question actually.

Over the last couple of hours you increased your post count from 6 to 36 and posted A LOT of observations about the thread, almost as though you've been reading along. Was there anything special about tonight that caused you to reveal your thoughts and increase the magnitude of your content by such a degree?

[Frogsterking]

Just because I'm feeling cheeky: andres when you leave, do you mind asking Strange to return to the game thread with her completed readslist we've been waiting for? I know she's in there with you.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

[Frogsterking]

PSA: Please vote strange and just hammer them if we get enough votes and they haven't posted their readslist yet

[Frogsterking]

I think it’s pretty obvious that you’re implying that I’m only posting a lot for some Scummy reason you’re not fully detailing. If you feel that way, you might as well say what that reason is.

K. Tell Strange I'm in here screaming for their head. I'm going to scum case them with the meta tells from the scum game they just completed with me pretty soon if I don't get that readslist. I did this same thing to them recently on D1 in a completed game from the newbie queue, so they'll know what to expect.

[Frogsterking]

Yea, exactly.

It would add spice, like "WE ALL CORRECTLY TOLD INTSTRUCTIONS BUT HE STILL MANAGED TO FUCK UP" or defuser ignoring instructions and somehow defusing, revealing someone lied.

This is why I wanted you on my expert team Enchant but CSF vetoed it

[Frogsterking]

I'm not even sure it makes sense for you not to realize he's baiting you I'm pretty sure you've played more games of mafia than I have.
So I'm confused again.

Ignore me too, this is also bait in a fashion.

I interpreted the early part of the exchange as curiosity and skepticism which I felt was fair. At this point, I do realize it’s somewhat in bad faith.

That's probably because this might be the case.

Bell have you not realized fire and andres are scum yet?

[Frogsterking]

I'm not even sure it makes sense for you not to realize he's baiting you I'm pretty sure you've played more games of mafia than I have.
So I'm confused again.

Ignore me too, this is also bait in a fashion.

I interpreted the early part of the exchange as curiosity and skepticism which I felt was fair. At this point, I do realize it’s somewhat in bad faith.

That's probably because this might be the case.

Bell have you not realized fire and andres are scum yet?

Are you going to be this obnoxious the whole game?

Neither of us will be alive by tomorrow I imagine.

andres will you be a bro and give me a clue on the 4th one? I've been wracking my brains all day. I know it's NOT VP Baltar

[Frogsterking]

I'm not even sure it makes sense for you not to realize he's baiting you I'm pretty sure you've played more games of mafia than I have.
So I'm confused again.

Ignore me too, this is also bait in a fashion.

I interpreted the early part of the exchange as curiosity and skepticism which I felt was fair. At this point, I do realize it’s somewhat in bad faith.

That's probably because this might be the case.

Bell have you not realized fire and andres are scum yet?

Are you going to be this obnoxious the whole game?

Neither of us will be alive by tomorrow I imagine.

andres will you be a bro and give me a clue on the 4th one? I've been wracking my brains all day. I know it's NOT VP Baltar

The only way you live to see D2 andres is if Strange doesn't show up here with her "huge" readslist by the time this town gets sick of me screaming at them and posting this gif.

So on second thought, if survival is really that important to you, maybe you SHOULDN'T mention to Strange in the scum PT what's going on.

[Frogsterking]

I'm not even sure it makes sense for you not to realize he's baiting you I'm pretty sure you've played more games of mafia than I have.
So I'm confused again.

Ignore me too, this is also bait in a fashion.

I interpreted the early part of the exchange as curiosity and skepticism which I felt was fair. At this point, I do realize it’s somewhat in bad faith.

That's probably because this might be the case.

Bell have you not realized fire and andres are scum yet?

Are you going to be this obnoxious the whole game?

Neither of us will be alive by tomorrow I imagine.

andres will you be a bro and give me a clue on the 4th one? I've been wracking my brains all day. I know it's NOT VP Baltar

Yeah I’ll stop interacting with you. You’re overconfident and wrong and I find that kind of aggravating and I would rather focus on actually catching up since that’s better for my own sanity.

When I do flip Town though, if we do play again, I will keep reminding you of how shit you are at reading me.

I'm sorry I've been gaslighted enough already when everyone told me I was crazy for my IV read which was exactly correct and he reacted in all the same ways you have tonight when I called him out. I've gotten a larger sample size of town games since then and I know my reads are good right now. I think you're pissed you rolled scum in this game, and I think you should be

Was this the clue by the way for the 4th??

apologies for filling up the thread with what i falsely hoped could be a productive conversation, feel kinda bad that people are going to read through all of that only to end up seeing it's just frog being frog

Oh don't worry fire, it was very productive, but only for town, not for you + andres + Strange.

[Frogsterking]

Strange yoo hoooo I'm ready for that HUGE readslist you've been working on

[Frogsterking]

Ah Strange,

thank you andres and fire!!!

I have this dream that andres and fire really believe in me and insisted you pop up in here because they want to see me grill you and then brilliantly deduce the 4th and final scum, restoring my shattered psyche.

[Frogsterking]

I think it’s pretty obvious that you’re implying that I’m only posting a lot for some Scummy reason you’re not fully detailing. If you feel that way, you might as well say what that reason is.

K. Tell Strange I'm in here screaming for their head. I'm going to scum case them with the meta tells from the scum game they just completed with me pretty soon if I don't get that readslist. I did this same thing to them recently on D1 in a completed game from the newbie queue, so they'll know what to expect.

So let met get this straight, you're metaing me on one single scum game without even pointing out I have a history of not alway being as active on both alignments mind you. If you're going to meta someone at least know that one game is never enough.

It's late and also I don't have much of a reads list anyways, so bite me on that, scumread me anyways idc.

Do you have a history of lying about working on one as both alignments?

[Frogsterking]

oof the beetlejuice. were you lurking Strange?

CSF am I being irrational that it seems like a coincidence here?

[Frogsterking]

Hmm IDK. CSF have you warmed up to Enchant yet? I think this is town!Enchant

[Frogsterking]

I hate posting readslists, but right now I feel like Bell has gone down on what I have seen so far, you've gone down for sure and I'm not at all sure how people are assuming you're even town.

If you hate, why promise to post them.

I didn't say I would post them, I said I would update on them, which to me is saying down the line about those reads not posting my entire readslist every single time.

Strange did you complete any scum games in between the last game we played

[Frogsterking]

No. I did not.

Damn. You seriously think I'm scum here?

[Frogsterking]

Hmm IDK. CSF have you warmed up to Enchant yet? I think this is town!Enchant

if i had to guess, I think he's town here.

Last 2 games we were in- he was town in one and scum in the other. He looks more like the town game here than the scum game... but I was also scum in both games, so I also wasn't solving his alignment in either >_>

Can I put him in our Town Core??

[Frogsterking]

No. I did not.

Damn. You seriously think I'm scum here?

Yes.

My brain is telling me you're full of lies, but my heart is telling me to believe. UNVOTE: Strange


Well, back to this one. VOTE: andres

[Frogsterking]

Strange how come you're like more engaged and have more reads and stuff in this town game?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=35821

[Frogsterking]

HEAL: Enchant IDK I want Enchant in Plan B with me if CSF is okay with it. I trust them.

I want andres dead before fire because I think mech and nightplay are important to this setup and I think andres will provide that to scum team. I think fire + andres are lockscum.

I can easily see myself being overconfident about my ability to read Strange. And VP. Maybe Praet/Koba too IDK.

PEdit:

Yeah I feel that Strange about both the reads and the time it's 5:30 AM here. I'm kind of leaning toward you being town here now. I'm gonna crash G'night all.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah I'm fully expecting a bloodbath. Did you think andres was scum?

[Frogsterking]

Not sure exactly where I'm going with this but I think it's going places.

35 - Good early reaction by

catboi

. Also thought early thoughts on setup were sufficiently pro-Town.
71 - Logic here from

Lukewarm

is exactly the same as mine in the early going.

My initial interpretation of the setup, and how I felt Town should act, is for everyone to see. I initially weighed the alternative win condition as follows:
The Scum are more often than not going to send Town players to defuse bombs. Why? Because if one of their own is nominated to be an Expert, they can benefit tremendously from giving incorrect instructions and blowing that player up as a replacement for having no free Night Kill. Yes, they gain NK’s for defusing bombs, and can get closer to their own alternative win condition as well, but with players that are naturally skeptical, it is far more likely in my mind that Town players will choose to sabotage the process at night if they have a suspicion that the player that has been nominated to defuse is Scum, precisely because the Scum win much faster by defusing bombs. If we start executing Scum, do you really feel like they’ll start putting their own as potential Defusers, when they’re doing so much better by simply fooling the Town? At least in the early part of the game. Later, I can understand why there’s going to be a natural inclination to not want to defuse any bombs (purely as a conservative move to avoid giving the Scum the chance to send one of their own and win). And if they have a few of their own members as Experts, they can almost limit the risk that a player will individually pick to sabotage the process and blow them up. But think about it for the first few bombs. The Scum know the probability that they have full control of any one bomb is a near impossible occurrence, and losing members of their own Team so early is a very risky proposition. Do you really see them sending some of their own on the first few tries? I don’t. That drove my initial reaction. As advice for the first few nights, I stand by my conclusions.

85 -

Greeting

probably put too much effort trying to think of ways to break the game in favor of the Town to just be straight up Scum.
99 - This feels like too strong of a read too early for me. I have a hard time seeing how you can make any argument about

VPB’s

meta so quickly. I have not been liking

frogsterking’s

posting thus far.
113 - I don’t understand this at all, but just because I don’t agree, doesn’t make

Titus

Scum. I just wouldn’t trust them at all.
121 - I agree with the observation made by

GuiltyLion

here - the use of the word trash by

frogsterking

is too strong. I do have to say, I think my style clashes with

Frogsterking

, so I have to be careful about not falling for that trap.

[In general, I think those players arguing for just letting the bombs explode mindlessly in the early part of the game are suspicious. Not necessarily for the conclusion, but for the fact that they’re not thinking deeply about it and are looking for players to explode, which is more easily manipulated to favor the Scum.]

122 - Can’t disagree with

Menalque’s

vote here.
137 - I can’t say I agree with this set of reads, but it could just be because I’m viewing the game very differently from

Frogsterking.

148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from

VPB

. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.
151 - This is the answer I expected initially.
169 - I like this read from

Frogsterking.

At this point, I think I judged the slot too early, because I very much vibe with their take on

VPB.

[I do not agree with the attacks by

The Bulge

and

Andante

on

catboi.

I’m starting to feel

catboi

is solidly Town.]

249 - I actually like the logic behind

Titus’

post here.
261 - A bit too tryhardy for Scum.
307 - This observation from

Dwlee99

I definitely agree with (about

Cephrir

).
327 - I do feel

DW

should be recognizing the obvious Town perspective from

Andante

though, even if they don’t think it’s their fault that a SR would tilt them.
330 -

Pooky

feels like they’re full of shit this game and wouldn’t trust them for anything.
367 - I don’t like how

Bell

is basically parroting

VPB

here. Too much suspicion onto

Cephrir

over not showing a lot of emotion about having rolled Town. Couldn’t the prevailing emotion just be relief? I don’t get it.

371 - I genuinely dislike this take from

Bell.

-first few pages had so much mech discussion zzzzz im gonna ignore that until later maybe
-

greeting

prob town for getting excited about a way to break the game that is obv wrong
-

vp

sounds normalish, idk bout the votes on him[
-

menalque

feels like 164 was posted out of feeling obligated to do so. but town can feel that too. it still gives me the hmmmms
- 256 could be scummy from

lion

. but i kinda feel good vibes from

prae's vp vote

right after, for some reason

lion and prae not connected. i noted the prae thing bc it made me a little more confident in the fact that i felt sus of the lion vote. it helped me see for myself that I wasn't just scumreading people who voted vp, there was something specific about the way lion talked about his vote that pinged me. ive liked lion's posting better since then, though

-

andante

is scummy as of 288
-

dwlee

is towny for noticing as of 293
- i read

pooky's

posts alternating between the voice of NBA analyst and anime girl and it's really throwing me off. need to find a new default

pooky

voice
- it's weird that

catboi TRs andante

strongly in 321 but idk if he's town with better reads than me or scum with tmi. either way

andante

might actually be town
- some people are really efforting it up and i bet they're not all town
-

lukewarm

being confused by

frog

in 397 kinda feels fake, but who isn't confused by

frog

sometimes
- ayyy

catboi's

secret read is

lukewarm

, i like this development. locktown
- 487 gutread

tweet

is scummy
- as of 546ish,

strangematter

feels... floaty? like she's not really engaged w/ the game just kinda existing and not poking out too much. potentially sus
- as of 561

frog

is kinda making me want to yeet him so I don't really blame

dwlee

that much. but i think

frog

is more likely town
- 595 hmm bad vibes here from

menalque

- gonna be honest i have never once looked through

andante's

big list to see what she updated whenever she ebwops it bc it is not clear at all what changed. sorry

andy

- ok one mech thing i don't think anyone has talked about is that don't we get very fuzzy alignment info from successful defuses based on how many nightkills the maf use? but they might not use them right away so it's extra fuzzy. maybe nobody talked about this bc they are hoping maf isn't thinking about this. but they def are so w/e

[Frogsterking]

I think I need to re-read the whole thread to find candidates to vote out because I'm kinda lost.

Yeah I had GuiltyLion in my initial scumread list but I think they were a red herring.

If you're looking for a place to start I'd appreciate a second opinion on my andres interrogation, he just dropped 40 posts a couple hours ago, he was previously a lurker slot at 6 posts.

[Frogsterking]

Anything critical that I’ve missed?

I'd appreciate a second opinion on the 40 posts andres just dropped

[Frogsterking]

GL is there any reason you can't townsend Menalque for me?

what does "townsend" mean? like prompt him to do towntell somehow?

or are you asking me to unheal him?

I might have the definition wrong but I think of it like making a case, but instead of a scum case it's a town case.

I wasn't really asking for like a full case though I just wanted something moderately solid to help me believe in Menalque town.

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: Andres

Fuck damnit

VOTE: VP Baltar

[Frogsterking]

also: not sure why Baltar is widely scumread, not sure why greeting is widely townread, and catboi is maybe town too

Baltar seemed different at the start. Could be explained by things other than AI but wasn't really satisfactorily. I thought it could be because he hasn't rolled scum in a long time so he was a lot more cautious at the onset of the game. I guess Baltar and andres both are "scum leans" for me at this point, I'm not sure if I should be trusting my intuition on them or not.

Do you mind explaining the MorningTweet scumread?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Ceph

we need more pooky/catboi heals and i would really like to see fewer frogster heals if he's just gonna openly fuck with it

put in some combo of csf, dwlee, me, strange and gl

No we don’t, as long as they’re in the top 8 it doesn’t matter.

Wow I got nothing out of those pages at all

How

Ceph looks really bad on this page, I can understand town leaning dwlee, strange and gl, but having this composition be your dream team looks pretty fake. I think including CSF here is probably shade/wifom. I don't think I've seen any positive interaction between CSF and Ceph or any indication of analysis other than CSF openly distrusting Ceph.

I think I'm pretty clearly using the hurt/heal tags to advance the town wincon. For example: HURT: Ceph

The idea that Ceph got nothing out of the last 10 pages implies he has absolutely no interest in sorting andres slot whatsoever because andres was literally the biggest question mark in this game until the last ten pages. andres had 6 posts most of which were filler, then last night he drops a full readslist and is openly interrogated for like 40 posts. How does your read on the biggest question mark in the game not change when you get that much new information?

Ceph is also super hedgy with his read toward my slot, he keeps claiming to townread me but consistently shades as though he doesn't. I think this could be AI because later in the game compared to other widely townread players I'm easier to mislim because I piss off a lot of townies, and it doesn't take a genius to figure this out.

For being a top "social gamer" or whatever Ceph seems to spend a lot of time sniping from the sidelines and making excuses for doing shit all.

I think of all my scum reads Ceph < VP < andres are most likely to be bullshit. I came up with some counterarguments for my andres read which give me reason to doubt my intuition in his case, which I can summarize for anyone who asks.

[Frogsterking]

You mean this dogshit openly laced in a shield of irony?

here i will prove to you that i could do this if i wanted to

can more people please heal pooky!!! I want to solve a bomb with pooky!!!!

also, not a huge fan of being with 3 whole people that… I don’t tr like at all… like can I request like catboi in my group then if I can’t have pooky? cause I don’t think me + 3 non TRs ends well

Are your TRs basically still the same from 638? Cuz that's a pretty wack set of TRs. I agree with only 2/9 of those (catboi, pooky), and those two are like the ones i'm the least confident about

i like the look of this because it makes no effort to pocket noted consensus townread andante, yet also invites attention from her to discuss reads, when she already seems kind of frustrated about being disagreed with. also csf shows believable trajectory here iirc - at least i know im one of those townreads and csf's dubiousness about me is documented

I could vote either VP or fire atp

VOTE: Morning Tweet

VP I promise I'll skim through that game at some point tonight for ya,

main thing I'm just trying to see is if the style of asking a bunch of questions and posting random largely meaningless observations

(579 another one that pinged me much in the same vein) is fully in line with your town game, seems fire (slash maybe a couple others IIRC?) is vouching for that but just want to check it myself

I largely agree with this observation. I was kind of surprised that VP is second top poster when I opened up the activity overview, because I don't really remember their posts or recall their stances.

Keep us updated on the metadive

This kind of looks like you just testing the waters of wagons that are semi-popular and saying your fine with either.

It's also pretty silly to be like "vp isn't memorable!" when your ability to remember things I've said and my positions is not my problem. Have better reading retention. I also don't know a thing you've done this game, but that's not an actual reason alone to scum read a person because I could say that about lots of players in a large game.

You may think my questions are pointless, but they aren't to me and how I'm feeling people out, which is all I care about.

Sure I don't have a read on Andres or The Bulge or other people, but they've barely posted or haven't posted enough for me to feel strongly one way or another

the difference with you is that you've posted a lot, but somehow your posts haven't stood out unlike the other active posters. My reading retention isn't the problem if I can remember other active posters.

i liked this post because they're sharing my brain cell, i also haven't found you very memorable & have no ideas what ur stances are despite being a high poster

Also, CSF, are you townreading GL?

Tentatively

I like that he saw the same things in dwlee as I did.

He could be scum parroting me, but I don't particularly think I'm important enough to pocket lol.

I'd like to see more from him.

Why do you ask about GL specifically?

i find the bolded to be a townie thought process

i didn't actually think any of these things particularly consciously, i guess i agree with them now that i'm doing this exercise just to prove i can fabricate reads believbably so you don't have to think im some sort of mafia infant who can't do this

Get the hell out Ceph lmao you're open wolfing.

[Frogsterking]

I just did a run through of strange matter’s iso.
I don’t really know what to say there except they’re different compared to the last game I played with them.

Join this wagon with me. It is good and just

Feel like I've seen a lot of strangematter griping, and yet I'm the only person voting there. Sus!

StrangeMatter [4]: Frogsterking, Greeting, Enchant, Andresvmb

And then there is this in the expert pool, which is wild

Hey VP were you pressuring Ceph just for show? You called him out on his shit and now you're pushing this random mislim target instead of sorting andres.

[Frogsterking]

Fuck no. The only reason I'm not yelling at people to murder fire is because Andre needs to finish their catch up.
I'm not moving.
Forsooth.

Yeah what the hell, I'm really feeling a fire + ceph + vp right team right now. VP is openly deflecting the lim off of fire and VP's push on Ceph (which Ceph was so quick to mention) looks like a warm cup of buttermilk pudding.

[Frogsterking]

Cephrir [4]: Titus, Frogsterking, Enchant, Dwlee99

Oh good, I was the dumbass who put Ceph into the Town Core, now I can fix my mistake.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: fire

[Frogsterking]

I think Bell might be the last scum

[Frogsterking]

Fuck no. The only reason I'm not yelling at people to murder fire is because Andre needs to finish their catch up.
I'm not moving.
Forsooth.

Yeah what the hell, I'm really feeling a fire + ceph + vp right team right now. VP is openly deflecting the lim off of fire and VP's push on Ceph (which Ceph was so quick to mention) looks like a warm cup of buttermilk pudding.

Jfc. You know, I would actually work with you if you'd tinfoil less.

What do you mean by this?

[Frogsterking]

@cephrir: than do something that resembles scum hunting. I’m not going to heal you if you don’t.

I've going to vote you if you put Ceph back in the core

[Frogsterking]

Hey guys I was just working on my readslist and I actually have some content about my interaction with andres last night that I was surprised because it doesn't read like bull shit. If I post it now before the readslist is finished will yall read it?

[Frogsterking]

Andresvmb

-
Andres popping into the thread last night and producing a ton content only once I started raising a ruckus about his slot is incredibly suspicious and worth being a D1 elimination based off of that alone. It demonstrates an agenda of being present mainly to avoid death rather than to solve the game and it begs the question why he hasn't produced any other content this entire time.

The sheer magnitude of the content he produced demonstrates both a level of knowledge about the gamestate beyond a mere lurker, and that on a mechanical level he may be actively writing here a lot more than he appears. For example, do you remember in grad school that one time you worked on a draft for a research paper all semester and barely finished it, then next week you realized you had to write five more drafts at the same time about topics you knew nothing about and finish all of them by Friday? And you were just instantly were able to do that like yup here I am here's my papers? Yeah, I don't remember that.

That's the level of andres writing ability, grad school at the minimum if not higher, and that's the magnitude of the difference in content andres produced last night: he was at a postcount of

six

trivial posts before bothering to show up last night! Andres demonstrated an immense amount of motivation and capability to write about

this

game. That motivation and capability aren't magically created over night. Think about any town games you were playing where you fell behind and hadn't read most of the game and barely posted, do you remember how one night you just showed up with an obv town screaming at you and you instantly had the motivation and ability to write almost 40 posts with a detailed understanding of what's been happening in the thread?

Andres does have plausible deniability, he could have really planned to catch up last night and just so happened to have been studying the thread for a couple hours leading up to my accusations which is why he had all that content ready. My counterargument to this plausible deniability is that of course scum!andres is creating plausible deniability for himself. Where is the evidence he was actually in the thread studying it for hours the night I happened to draw negative attention to his slot? Why didn't he say that he was here and catching up? This is a game where players are instructed to lie and not get caught; what do you think it looks like andres is doing? The capacity to believe andres plausible deniability is pretty much the only reason I would accept fire killed today instead of andres, because I think if we're equally sure between andres and fire then andres would be the better kill to deprive the scum team access to andres ability to calculate ahead.

This is why I wanted to share my ideas now though because I think andres does have a good chance to flip scum and I think andres provides a lot of support to his scum teams in making optimal choices for night play. This seems like a priority given the theme of the setup. Also, while very few players are trusting fire at this point, I think andres may have the ability later to talk himself out of some eliminations, and if my read on andres is correct I may just be nightkilled and my read will be buried away by wifom logic, allowing andres to continue guiding the scum team through important mechanical decisions.

Finally and most importantly, I think the syntax of andres writing seemed strong and helped him to appear more townie, and some of his thoughts have effort which demonstrate a level of acting enough to make me second guess myself. I think this could be a sign I was wrong about him or it could just mean his writing abilities have become even better and his acting has improved as a result of rolling scum recently. However...

The content of his writing was less convincing, I felt like he was evading my questions sometimes and providing a lot of details about things I didn't ask about and other times barely answered the question at all. Sometimes I was watching his posts come into the thread and I felt like he was looping his thoughts between a few widely-held consensus angles he felt he could write a lot about rather than saying things he was thinking about the game. I definitely didn't get the impression he was attempting to read players in this game, I got the impression he was looking for reasons to read other players in this game.

UNVOTE: fire
VOTE: andres

Town isn't getting any value from this wagon on fire, we already know fire isn't long for this world and he's just dragging his toes posting wifom and flicking boogers at me when I try to solve. Fire will be here to kill if you decide andres is actually town, fire will be here to kill D2: fire isn't going anywhere or doing anything--the fire lim will happen--it doesn't have to happen RIGHT NOW.

I don't care what andres alignment is, if he's town he needs to get in here and post content regularly enough for us to see he's town. OBVIOUSLY he is capable of doing so and it's extremely scummy he does so cogently and only when under concerted pressure.

Put your votes on this guy and get him to post in here and stay in here and prove he's not just low effort scum skating through the game only willing to effort to save his own ass; because that's EXACTLY what this slot is doing.

[Frogsterking]

andres posts that he's catching up: 1491
frog starts pressuring him: 1507

frog's entire premise is wrong

this will be the only engagement i have with this subject

Hey look the outted scum is actively discouraging us from improving our ability to sort andres.

[Frogsterking]

At minimum two players get killed if fire is scum.

?

[Frogsterking]

At minimum two players get killed if fire is scum.

?

Did someone claim masons with fire?

[Frogsterking]

I’m phone posting and there is some wild autocorrecting going on.
Meant cleared there.

Cleared as in a couple widely townread players are moderately more likely to be town? And this rules out andres wagon as being strong for town?

[Frogsterking]

I think Bell is scum defending andres. And I'm not opposed to Mist vote I'll hammer fire if they get to e-1.

[Frogsterking]

bell's posts have good vibes

Nah Bell's scum

[Frogsterking]

Mist if you're catching up now can you give an opinion on Ceph's slot? I made a post about Ceph too this afternoon

[Frogsterking]

1713 and 562 I call out Ceph

[Frogsterking]

Mist if you're catching up now can you give an opinion on Ceph's slot? I made a post about Ceph too this afternoon

ceph is town

Was that the one where they're town because they didn't try to pocket you?

[Frogsterking]

I'm really putting myself in deep if I'm wrong on this guy btw.
I hope ya'll enjoy my humiliation when I'm inevitably wrong.

These are the kinds of posts which make me scum read Bell

[Frogsterking]

@frogster- your problems with Bell could just be playstyle clash. I think Bell is p towny

I also didn't like Andres' catch up and could entertain a wagon there.

My initial impression of his catch up was a lot of trying to look town and show progression rather than actual solving. He's just posting about things that happened 50 pages ago. I understand he may have fallen behind, but that really shouldn't be town's priority

Also, the one game I was in with Andres, I also remember him falling a bit behind there too, but he was able to summarize the important events in the thread and comment on them.

Whereas here, he presented a catch up on events so many pages back, and I don't think that's what he would focus on if he were town here.

This is the impression I have from reading some posts of scum!andres in a scum PT and town!andres in a game thread. Kind of behind and limited for time but helpful and someone you want to have on your team.

Scum!Andres in a game thread is like a Hannibal Lector-type living in our basement who we have to remember to feed from time to time.

This andres feels more like the latter so far.

[Frogsterking]

CSF I'm pretty sure fire was lying about writing that beforehand.