KTaNE [game over!]

[catboi]

ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ:･ﾟ KAWAII WAVE!!:„ø¤º°¨ ¨°º¤KEEP THE KAWAII GOING ¸„ø¤º°¨ ¨°º¤øº LETS GO KAWAII !¤¤º°¨¨°º¤øº¤ø„¸¸ø¤º°¨„ ø¤º°¨¨°ºL-E-T-S GO!„ø¤º°¨ ¨°º¤LET'S GO KAWAII !¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤øºL-E-T-S GO!¤¤º°¨ ¨°¤øº¤ø„¸¸ø¤º°¨LET'S GO KAWAII :„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤KEEP THE WAVE GOING •ᴥ•¸„ø¤º

VOTE: pooky

[catboi]

Big fos on everyone for not keeping the kawaii wave going

[catboi]

With regard to the setup: the town alternate win condition is highly unlikely to be reached, given the sheer number of successes required and the influence scum can have over the process, either by sending one of their own to defuse the bomb or having a scum expert intentionally fail the defusal. The alternate scum win condition, by comparison, is frightfully easy to achieve. I suggest failing defusals by default, unless the scum select a defuser who is a consensus townread. While in effect this is gifting scum a free regular nightkill, it gates it so that scum can only kill people who are otherwise suspects, which is ultimately a pro-town move.

[catboi]

so many words catboi tsk tsk

and yet it's still more efficient than your postcount padding word vomit

[catboi]

so many words catboi tsk tsk

and yet it's still more efficient than your postcount padding word vomit

i almost fell asleep reading it

Might want to see a doctor about your Narcolepsy

[catboi]

well even if they were mandatory somehow, we'd just intentionally give bad info if we decide we want to fail all bombs by default

oh like use them as a double elim?

The scum are the ones choosing the defusers, please go read the setup again. It's not functionally an elimination but unless someone is towncore there's no point saving them from a nightkill.


I'll shrug and take this as plausibly uninformed, good enough for page 2.

[catboi]

Not providing any information is obviously going to be treated the same as giving incorrect information.

[catboi]

PEDit: StrangeMatters is already out of their scum range by the way, slight townread on StrangeMatters from me.

Baffling read.

[catboi]

I think I found out a potential way to bend the game mechanics to our advantage.

We know that scums select the bomb defuser.
We also know that we select the bomb experts.

Which gives me an idea.

We could all decide to nominate just one person each.

This way, on Day 1, we all could get 3 players to nominate a single player and end up with 6 candidates. (6*3=18; one player is left I suppose)

We also know that there will be 4 experts whom will be selected and we will know that they were selected because they had the most town votes.

Town votes, not all votes.

By doing this, we will know that at least one of the players in each grouping who nominated a player that did not get selected to be a bomb expert is scum simply because their vote was not counted.

Example:

Players in the game {A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S}

Nominations for player A: {A, B, C}
Nominations for player B: {D, E, F}
Nominations for player C: {G, H, I}
Nominations for player D: {J, K, L}
Nominations for player E: {M, N, O}
Nominations for player F: {P, Q, R}

S is left.

Night 1 we find out that the players selected were: {A, B, C, D}. Which means that scums must have been in the {M, N, O} and {P, Q, R} group who voted to nominate E and F.

I can see a potential problem though: what if the scums decide to spread amongst the groups nominating C, D, E and F? How will the tie be resolved then?

This is incorrect on multiple counts (the voting for expert does not only count town votes, that would be straightforwardly gamebreaking for obvious reasons. The number of experts selected on night 1 is 8, not 4)

A for effort though.

HEAL: Greeting

for functional purposes I will equate this to a townread, there may be more practical considerations on who to nominate for an expert but those can come later.

[catboi]

VOTE: Frogsterking

[catboi]

Code: Select all

[heal][/heal]

Simple as that.

[catboi]

This is incorrect on multiple counts (the voting for expert does not only count town votes, that would be straightforwardly gamebreaking for obvious reasons. The number of experts selected on night 1 is 8, not 4)

A for effort though.

HEAL: Greeting

for functional purposes I will equate this to a townread, there may be more practical considerations on who to nominate for an expert but those can come later.

The rules say that:

each bomb defusal will consist of one bomb defuser

(selected by the mafia)

, and 4-2 bomb experts

(selected by the town)

.

I would encourage you to read slightly more critically:

the needed number of players who at that moment have the most nominations will be the night's bomb experts.

[catboi]

VOTE: Frogsterking

VOTE: catboi

Stop voting my mason.

Don't fakeclaim mason, thanks in advance

[catboi]

It is incredibly dumb to think a mechanic would be designed in which the votes of scum do not count, you will be proven wrong whenever this is clarified. I will not engage in further discussion on this subject.

[catboi]

i understand it's prolly not decided but are we trying to put town or scum in the defuser's seat

We do not get to decide on the defusers, only the experts.

Although ultimately the composition of the group of experts is not that important because the rules force us to cycle through experts in a way that makes the selection of scum highly likely, starting by selecting townreads today is perfectly fine - it prevents them from being selected for defusal by the mafia and gives them a neighborhood they can use.

[catboi]

What is the biggest factor preventing us from just sending people to try and be bomb experts, like in resistance, have them try to succeed, and if there's a failure, it's guaranteed someone sabotaged so we still learn something?

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

Had I rolled scum this game my goal would have been to propose something more or less like the former, playing it like resistance, and blitz the alternate win condition. Four successes is a small amount and it's certainly easier than trying to cut through an enormous amount of townies with a limited supply of nightkills. I would think there's at least a few other players in this game who'd think that way.

I said "fail by default" with the assumption the defuser is unlikely to be a consensus townread and it's more valuable to flip anyone there is some uncertainty about. Saving someone from the bomb should mean you'd be willing to bet the game on them being town.

What I'm trying to say is that reflexively trying to pass/fail people is bad, I suppose, although that's a much less exciting and cool-sounding approach.

And yes I'm sorry for probably rehashing what's already been talking about probably but it's the only way i can really participate in mech

The alternate wincons don't seem like something that will get completed, so much as something to make the bombs actually have some kind of stakes. At least, it seems to me that was the design goal anyway. whether or not it can be broken, ill leave up to others

I don't particularly mind the discussions at this point because hashing it out is useful and sometimes people can be read off their involvement with the mechanics. (not always necessarily in the obvious Greeting way, but still)

[catboi]

VOTE: the praetorian

[catboi]

Good vibes from menalque so far.

Ceph is not overjoyed at having finally rolled town, which means he must be scum for the 11 millionth consecutive time

[catboi]

VOTE: the praetorian

Why do you want to push to kill people defusing bombs when its a scum chosen defuser? Now that im understanding the mech more your suggestion feels more anti town.

The town alternate win condition is vanishingly unlikely to ever take place. To achieve it would require at a minimum 7 night phases. That would guarantee 11 deaths already (7 from elimination, 1 from teh starting nightkill, and 3 from suxccesful town defusals). That puts us at 8 alive at most.This doesn't meaningfully put 'pressure' on scum because they can either put a member up for defusal to deny town the win condition or cause a failure in there, and at that point it can be delayed enough to prevent town from having any possible chance of meaningfully achieving it.

I am not arguing for unconditionally killing anyone who is selected as a defuser and have clarified the nuance of my position.

[catboi]

well even if they were mandatory somehow, we'd just intentionally give bad info if we decide we want to fail all bombs by default

oh like use them as a double elim?

The scum are the ones choosing the defusers, please go read the setup again. It's not functionally an elimination but unless someone is towncore there's no point saving them from a nightkill.


I'll shrug and take this as plausibly uninformed, good enough for page 2.

Why did you treat vp differently than myself for making a similar mixup btw?

Because I don't like you.

No points for making the easiest read in the world there I’m afraid catboi

You said you think you'll be able to read me so it's on you if you can't figure out I'm town~

[catboi]

@catboi

What is the biggest factor preventing us from just sending people to try and be bomb experts, like in resistance, have them try to succeed, and if there's a failure, it's guaranteed someone sabotaged so we still learn something?

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

Had I rolled scum this game my goal would have been to propose something more or less like the former, playing it like resistance, and blitz the alternate win condition. Four successes is a small amount and it's certainly easier than trying to cut through an enormous amount of townies with a limited supply of nightkills. I would think there's at least a few other players in this game who'd think that way.

I don't think the scum alt wincon is as scary as you are making it out to be. certainly not something that can be blitzed. reasons morning already mentioned but i feel this post was overlooked.

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

Okay? I'm not sure if you were expecting a comment from me on that, I'm not sure how you think I "overlooked" a post you quoted me replying to.

It seems largely the difference of opinion is based around whether we anticipate scum to select obvious town or more uncertain players for the defuser position. I would not support killin a consensus townread that is made defuser, as I have already stated.

[catboi]

you haven't responded to a point that i feel is pretty damning to your whole position, don't try and shut me down.

I'm not trying to shut you down, I legitimately do not understand the point you are trying to highlight. State it in plain English for me.

[catboi]

scum can't just strongarm their wincon without the majority of them being widely townread. it would be very easy to catch on and simply eliminate scum and put a hiatus on defusing bombs.

Realistically you're going to be stacking the towncore as the expert on night 1, or at least you should. The players outside who are eligible to be defusers are going to be somewhere outside that, either in POE territory or light townleans. I don't really think town's collective ability is good enough to have all the scum players in a POE by the end of day 1 unless the mod rolled an absolute chump scumteam, meaning any scum team member who is somewhere in the territory of null to a townlean would be a reasonably "safe" pick for defuser.

The consideration here seems to be "yeah we'll be able to tell who is scum nominated for defuser versus town scum wants to kill" and I just think towns are rarely that good. Yes, some townies are just obvious, but I think the incentives motivate scum to not pick those players. (and as I have already said, I would oppose reflexively killing a consensus townread)

Had I rolled scum the plan would be something like put up two buddies to defuse the bomb night 1, possibly bussing a weaker teammate to position them if necessary, send myself as defuser night 2 or 3, maybe stall a night or two but then have a teammate repeat as the defuser if they're still sufficiently townread


Again, this disagreement feels largely theoretical and based around us having different expectations.

[catboi]

Again, this disagreement feels largely theoretical and based around us having different expectations.

i'm more curious about the fact your stance hasn't seemed to change since 21 despite mech discussions dominating large portions of the game so far.

Because the counterarguments aren't particularly compelling to me. They assume different things about who scum will nominate and how well town will be able to sort out its reads. At this point since it's all hypothetical we can go in circles for days.

Do you think my stance not changing is meaningful for my alignment in some way?

[catboi]

Ohhhhh so the people we heal cant be killed or set as the defuse then? Ahhhh so in other words itd be much easier for scum to put themselves in the defuse seat. I think I understand you now @catboi

It's kind of up to us the pool scum picks from.. the dilemma makes a lit more sense now.

People who we vote as experts with the heal tag can be nightkilled, they cannot be set as the defuser. Scum only gain extra nightkills through successful defusals, though. Currently, they only have one.

so much bomb talk... all I know is if a bomb is in front of me, I'm trying to diffuse it, and if you don't want me doing that, don't pick me. that simple

I've been mainly mehanics talk partly because I haven't had the time to fully focus my attention on the game so any reads are pure gut feeling for the most part. More thought will come when I have time to actually read closely.

[catboi]

VOTE: Andante
This is scum this game

Doubtful

[catboi]

Andante is probably my second most confident townread after Greeting.

[catboi]

Andante is probably my second most confident townread after Greeting.

What's scary is I actually believe the TR on me is a read town!you makes here, but like, I'm not entirely sold on the fact I tr you lol

You're finally learning, at least

[catboi]

Reread VP Baltar and not particularly convinced this is scum-him.

I do have a secret scumread but I'm going to sit on it for a bit.

[catboi]

Dwlee99

>:(

I mean, what have you done that I should read into and sort you from? Like, if you expect a TR from "IM ENTERING AND VOTING ANDANTE" think again, cause like, I've been on top of this game, trying my best to sort people, and you literally just "don't care! andante maf!!" like, makes me feel like I'm wasting my time if you are town, so... not a great feeling, cause if I said something you hate, again, feel free to point it out, ask questions...

but yeah, got stuff to do, and if I didn't post my thoughts, yall are getting like an entirely new readslist tomorrow..

Andante, psychoanalyze this post for me please.

And by that I mean, explain where all this angst is coming from.

she selfdestructs under pressure. It's not alignment indicative.

[catboi]

Are they using their trauma for good or evil

I think the best thing is to look past stuff like that and look at her analysis. She's enthusiastically solving and trying to analyze with some level of depth, so probably town.

[catboi]

Are they using their trauma for good or evil

I think the best thing is to look past stuff like that and look at her analysis. She's enthusiastically solving and trying to analyze with some level of depth, so probably town.

I don't have enough meta to know if they can fake enthusiastically solve. I don't have a grasp on their scum game.

Andante's town game is obvious because she gives a bunch of wild changing reads, buddies up to anyone who calls her town, and omgus anyone who calls her scum. (No disrespect, she just plays a very emotionally transparent game)

she does the last two as scum lol

[catboi]

VOTE: Lukewarm

debated how long I was going to wait for this. Sorry to say that Lukewarm rolled scum this game.

[catboi]

I feel like Pooky would need to have really polished scum play for their current iso to come from scum.

I feel Catboi is TMIing with their VP and Andante reads,

but maybe he's just got good reads.

Luke complaining about the catch up and overreacting to my read is a bad look.

I should give the caveat that my VP Baltar read is mainly "I don't see it" with regard to the scum reads. There's some stuff in the iso that makes me scrunch my nose a bit, some that's okay, nothing that's glaringly bad. I'm not really convinced by your argument that him being self-conscious is scummy and the rest of the votes are for vibes or trying to look townie or whatever. Not really confidently town but, meh.

[catboi]

VOTE: Lukewarm

debated how long I was going to wait for this. Sorry to say that Lukewarm rolled scum this game.

Curious why you decoded to drop this read now when you made it sound like you were gonna hold powder for a min. What changed?

I saw enough that I didn't feel like waiting anymore.

[catboi]

Titus was my early town read for a dumb reason.

Oh, and after that

I actually found her non-serious mason claim townie, even if I dont like fake mason claiming.

Both from an approach from her towards a possible miselim if he is town, but not in a way that I think scum would do for a partner if he is scum. But also in a similarity in how I've seen her approach games before.

I would say greeting and Titus are my strongest reads of those 5

Baffled by this Titus townread

It's because he's scum, hope this helps~

Are they using their trauma for good or evil

I think the best thing is to look past stuff like that and look at her analysis. She's enthusiastically solving and trying to analyze with some level of depth, so probably town.

Andante's scum game is perfectly capable and she can do enthusiasm as scum. This is a bad reason to townread her.

This is a very bad interpretation of what I said that almost misses the point entirely. The point is not that she is

posting

with enthusiasm but that her

solving

is enthusiastic. I could go at length to explain

If, in your estimation, she has a "capable" scum game, why is she clearly scum here?

I strongly dislike dwlee's Andante push.

Andante feels townish here, and I also know she's kind of an easy mislim having fallen into the trap of tunneling her more than once recently. I think dwlee knows this too.

That people are playing around her like this is actually what makes me think she is scum. She is actually townier as scum and that everyone townreads her when she is normally a controversial day one slot is very scum-indicative imo

That sh has a tendency to step on rakes is true, but isn't it just as possible that enough people here are familiar with her that they're less likely to misread her? I don't buy at all the argument that more people townreading her makes her scum.

[catboi]

Greeting [6]: catboi, Cephrir, Morning Tweet, PookyTheMagicalBear, Lukewarm, Cat Scratch Fever

catboiiiii (or anyone), help me understand this?

What's with all the Greeting town reads? Their ISO is just mech talk. What am I missing?

He tried to break the game under an incorrect assumption about how the bomb expert votes work.

That type of post never comes from scum, if scum believe there's a breaking strategy they don't post it publicly.

[catboi]

VOTE: Lukewarm

debated how long I was going to wait for this. Sorry to say that Lukewarm rolled scum this game.

Curious why you decoded to drop this read now when you made it sound like you were gonna hold powder for a min. What changed?

I saw enough that I didn't feel like waiting anymore.

What did you see?

I was also kind of tweaked on Luke a little bit because that frogster case was pretty reachy. But I also wasn't super sure if I'm being over critical of him because frog looks town here.

You answer this catboi?

Missed it, apologies. Strong gut feeling, think leaning into mech talk early is scummy for him, the way he spoke about stuff just didn't feel like there was real interest in deciding a plan. I think in his catchup he was overly focused on frogster's read of him and mainly chose to respond to mechanical things that had already been hashed out, commenting for the sake of commenting. I think the pages between the game start and his return had plenty to form reads off but he wasn't able to produce anything substantive.

[catboi]

I’ll be honest, I’m going to be skimming any pages that happen when I’m asleep at best

I think the game will go smoother if we just assume people are going to miss things for the first few days

[catboi]

Uhh I have a massively unfinished list so people not mentioned are essentially no clues or I have had the chance to look into.

Not willing to vote out
Andante

Would be fine with voting out.
Frogsterking
Dwlee (Partial paranoia but he just feels like how he played in Mini 2265 and I can never get a read on him.

I found it quite funny that strange was asked for a full reads list, and says they have "massively unfinished one" - and then posts a list with e names in a 19 player game lmao

Scum!strange could have easily padded this out at least a little bit, so thinking this is town strange still getting a footing on reads

big oof

[catboi]

Menalque..I wonder what kind of game you're playing at here..

It’s a social deduction game that involves an uninformed majority putting their wits against an informed minority

There are generally two phases, a day phase and a night phase, with a different faction predominating in either

It originally went by the name “werewolf” and originated as a type of party game between university students in Russia

Hope that helps!

lmao

[catboi]

catboi, am I crazy for thinking Cat might be maf? like, they don't even have a lot of posts, but something there feels really off to me... idk

It's not impossible given she only has 11 posts, although on reading them I actually felt vaguely positive about them. But there's a lot of people who might be mafia right now. It's early still.

[catboi]

catboi can stay in null out of spite and ill out my real read later.
keep them out of expert chats bc he doesnt use hoods

My impression was that your opening to the game was scummy. I could, of course, have been premature in that assessment. We'll see.

[catboi]

@catboi alright, hmmm, yeah I know only 11 posts, like, it's not a SR I'd die on right now, but it's just, I can't get over the like "perfect takes" like, I'd SR that over bell's "look for yourself" reasoning, idk!! we'll see what happens

the townreads from CSF on you and frogsterking are, at this point, uncontroversial, and could come from either alignment. The confidence in those reads

could

be a scum POV but I wouldn't stake anything on it, and on a third reread I like the questioning toward dwlee, in particular 543. I think she's fine for now.


Meanwhile, I don't think Luke is posting from a town mindset, he's overly focused on playing defense, and I don't think 610 is a read town makes, like, ever.

[catboi]

That was, uh, a sequence.

Initial reaction to that readslist from lukewarm is that it's a hard scumclaim.

[catboi]

I would be...disappointed if his response to getting caught early was to bounce. But I will not read into that at all, have recent firsthand experience with people mis-clearing scum for a replace out. Treating that action as null. I feel like he's mostly working himself into knots trying to justify those reads and I don't find a believable thought process there.

[catboi]

The paranoia on me also screams fake but I'm very biased in that regard

[catboi]

I think the reference to divide and conquer is instructive, as Lukewarm in that game (as one of the Todoroki) actually engaged and argued with the suspicion on them. Here, I got essentially crickets until he dropped those reads. I don't believe he comes to that conclusion on my alignment that quickly with no effort whatsoever to understand my reasoning. I just don't think it's a town response to pressure.

[catboi]

Frogster
Andante
Luke
Pooky
Andres
Are who I want to focus on this phase I think

Also CSF
Complete list:
Frogster
Andante
Luke
Pooky
Andres
Catboi
CSF

How are you defining "focus" here?

[catboi]

VOTE: Lukewarm

Let's see where it goes.

E-3, for the record. Do not want any quickhammers.

[catboi]

In fact null reads who think they can do good work in a hood is exactly who I want to vote in today?

My preference is mainly for people we don't want to see potentially exploded on night 1. Giving null reads control over whether someone lives or dies seems un-ideal. The only point of concern would be someone like frogster who expressed a desire to reflexively kill any defuser. (I do think frogster is likely town at this point, contrary to my first impulse, but don't feel like going into detail right now).

[catboi]

Got flashbacks to when I read Lukewarm’s reads list to Dwlee saying I would absolutely do x as town, where Dwlee was actually scum lol.

I don't understand what this means. Explain?

[catboi]

In fact null reads who think they can do good work in a hood is exactly who I want to vote in today?

My preference is mainly for people we don't want to see potentially exploded on night 1. Giving null reads control over whether someone lives or dies seems un-ideal. The only point of concern would be someone like frogster who expressed a desire to reflexively kill any defuser. (I do think frogster is likely town at this point, contrary to my first impulse, but don't feel like going into detail right now).

my reasoning for this is we have to burn 8 people today

i'd rather save townreads for later nights that have only 3 experts, so they can be more impactful

but the contrast is there's 2 bombs tonight and we don't yet have an idea of the degree of difficulty involved


UNVOTE:

Treating the notes from fire as null but will give him space to see what happens.

[catboi]

andante town
Lukewarm scum
vp still scum
Frogster town
Cephrir scum

just need one more, maybe bell randed scum again lul

HEAL: the praetorian

That's a pretty null post from koba

[catboi]

I liked some of morning tweets mechanics posting earlier but outside of that she's done ~nothing alignment indicative, don't get the townreads on her.

[catboi]

Is praetorian koba...

They weren't even hiding it, how do you not catch on, lol

Does that influence your read of them in any way?

Frogster
Andante
Luke
Pooky
Andres
Are who I want to focus on this phase I think

Also CSF
Complete list:
Frogster
Andante
Luke
Pooky
Andres
Catboi
CSF

How are you defining "focus" here?

So limited time to solve implies an optimal way to divvy up your solving to maximize utility in reads idk this got too mathy as I was writing it

Anyway, these slots are ones I think have a good chance to contain scum and which have other reasons that solving their alignment will be more helpful.

I'm confused at how you settled on those names this early

[catboi]

Ceph might be scum because they feel the same as usual and they're usually scum. Someone brought up earlier something in the vein of how they aren't playing differently and i liked that

Bad reason to scumread anyone and especially me

But is it wrong tho

[catboi]

Again, this disagreement feels largely theoretical and based around us having different expectations.

i'm more curious about the fact your stance hasn't seemed to change since 21 despite mech discussions dominating large portions of the game so far.

Because the counterarguments aren't particularly compelling to me. They assume different things about who scum will nominate and how well town will be able to sort out its reads. At this point since it's all hypothetical we can go in circles for days.

Do you think my stance not changing is meaningful for my alignment in some way?

I'm leaning scum cuz it looks like agenda-based play. and I don't mean necessarily in a sense like you've developed a plan pre-game and are trying to ensure town will comply, more just that your stance looks predetermined and doesn't look to be naturally evolving with the thread.

You are correct that it is predetermined and incorrect that it is a scumtell for me because I would have an entirely different strategy as scum

[catboi]

hi pooky

menalque is the only non-consensus one, I didn't say he in particular was consensus. the other three clearly are

what's town is that I felt he passed a vibe check in the early game and my belief is if he were scum he'd be a lot more tryhard and also a lot more upset

he was basically a block of ice in PYP

[catboi]

I think it's worth considering there's a scum in this heal list and/or Luke's heal list.

I think Praet + Luke/Fire + VP + ?

Maybe GL or Dwlee or someone.

I think Dwlee/Tweet are better suspects than Praet at the moment

Is this a post town!GL makes?

It's entirely possible.

Luke.

I'm too paranoid of Catboi to ever nom them early unless they're utterly obvtown.
They're pretty townie this game.
But yeah,
no.

I would suggest that if I were scum, I could not actually cause any harm while serving as an expert, beyond purposefully failing the defusal, which would out me. So I wouldn't do that. And I want to be an expert on night 1. So nominate me anyway.

[catboi]

There are a number of posters I want to see more from before moving forward. I'm content to hang back and wait for that to happen. I'm in no rush.

[catboi]

I think the last game we played together categorically demonstrates that I am better at reading Andante than you are and I'm kind of confused why you think you would have a better read on her than I do it feels almost like refuge in audacity.

Yes so if you're right cool but if you're wrong you die :^)

This game is fair right

do we get to BoP you if you're wrong though

dwlee vigged andante when she was like a consensus townread

[catboi]

Catboi can I get your thoughts on my current solve of VP + fire + Praet + GL

I think trying to heroolve day 1 is silly. I think GL is more likely town than not. VP Baltar is still...not bad vibes? I feel like I see him get wrongly suspected every game as town.

[catboi]

I'm not remotely sold on pooky being town yet.

[catboi]

I'm not explicitly scumreading him so don't have anything interesting to add, just that beyond slight aggressive tone there's not much else to judge him on and people calling him town are doing so prematurely.

[catboi]

I wish I were posting like this as scum. But no. And it should be decently apparent to people.

[catboi]

It's possible to be town and have a different opinion, you know.

[catboi]

There's also a second reason: he seems to be very knowledgeable about this setup, which could either mean that he's individually very experienced in mafia games and games in general (likely), but this knowledge could have also been a result of him having a private space to analyse the setup with someone equally experienced (also likely).

You do realize the setup mechanics were made public in signups, right?

[catboi]

Unfortunately, I feel like this could potentially be alignment indicative. I've played with catboi a few times before and he was never like this.

ive read some games with him in it and do not think this is alignment indicative lol, if anything i think he is that way as town more often

look, a ghost

All that being said, catboi did seem slightly aggressive in a few interactions, where it seemed a bit much. Could also just be having RL annoyances I guess, so overall, not sure I agree with him not being an expert. He does have a good grasp of the setup, and I think that's something we want to leverage if he's town.

his start was very agressive.. I was reading that on the bus like "oh snap..." then pooky went silent, and I don't blame pooky for that, so like, the 2 are not maf together, I've legit never seen catboi like that before so I was just ignoring that, but yeah very knowledgeable, but he's also the kind of person who will fully understand the setup before it starts, and I believe it was him that was annoyed by the million mech questions too, which I'd say would point to being town. idk, I have like my own unique reason I TR him, I'll reevaluate later though

It is annoying to even have to comment on this but the interactions between me and pooky are just frivolous banter and are being read as significantly more serious than they actually were

[catboi]

I also think that the majority of players think the same way I do

This type of thinking is responsible for a large amount of bad reads in mafia games.

[catboi]

sup

[catboi]

do u want to defuse a bomb with me? :3

sure w/e

also I saw your post earlier about me not trusting you and it hurt my feelings because it was like the blue circle never happened

[catboi]

Haven't been reading up properly since last night, catching up now.

I think maybe the most confusing thing about VP Baltar's reads list is that he hasn't really been advancing his scum reads at all. I'm not particularly sure it makes him lockscum or whatever. Can kind of see the point pooky is getting at but want to review things myself.

I still dunno where the fire resistance is from, we’re 47 pages in. Time to kill somebody.

I was hoping to hear more from certain players, but that hasn't really manifested. 19 players is a lot of people and I want to get my thoughts together first

[catboi]

Bell is probably just scum.

Highly unlikely at this point.

it's hard to explain but my female alts are not really me - they're just very different.

sorry about hurting your feelings - happy scumday!

also to be clear, it didn't

actually

hurt my feelings, I was just kidding~


Bulge vanishing is kind of disappointing although I guess not unexpected. I think him trying to play the part of a hard-nosed interrogator with me is more or less typically town-him, although it's not a strong read at all. Not sure I'm going to be able to figure out Enchant at all.

I still dunno where the fire resistance is from, we’re 47 pages in. Time to kill somebody.

I would like to see you sell me on fire and not just luke. It feels kind of bad faith for us to lim him solely on some luke reactions you didn't like.

Fire's interactions this game don't look that scummy to me, so I'm having a hard time getting the tunnel on him. (Yes, I know you said this is a luke thing, I'm just saying!)

I think the scummiest thing about fire's play so far is that they seem to be playing it entirely safe with their their posting and not ruffle feathers at all


Read VP Baltar's posts and still feel uncomfortable with eliminating him day 1, mostly seems like the classic trap of town hyperfocusing their attention on someone who is very active on day 1 and therefore has more things to criticize.

[catboi]

I think fire is a good D1 execution by the way. I'm looking to compromise vote on fire EoD if this VP wagon doesn't take off.

Luke's ISO would be the main reason I would want to lim that slot today but have any of fire's posts moved the needle for you at all? I don't have any idea what scum!fire is capable of but nothing they've posted has felt scummy or disingenuous to me so far

The problem is that "not scummy/disingenuous" is not a high bar toclaer, and I haven't actually seen anything from them that is hitting me as overtly towny, which is a problem when their slot was starting off from a negative position in my eyes and other people are at least giving me some sense of towniness.

[catboi]

Assembling a readslist, reread tweet's iso, kind of underwhelming, need to remind myself how she plays day 1 as town

[catboi]

Looking at some morning tweet town games, not sure if it's a case of large theme doldrums or what but definitely worried about her here. Would maybe actually awnt to try to discuss with her here but her easoning for all her votes feels very underdeveloped in a way that is uncharacteristic of her towngame. Would maybe want to talk to he but concern level yellow?

(ó﹏ò｡)

[catboi]

Too lazy to cite any actual posts for this stuff, so you get what you get

I'm rereading CSF's ISO because she's one of the people I have the least confident opinion on. I'm not sure coming out of it that I have any firmer idea. There's some stuff I kind of like but nothing that would particularly blow me away if it came from scum.

Bell was mindmelding with me on Lukewarm and the tunneling there is very singularly town-him, not really much doubt there at all.

I don't have firsthand experience with dwlee-scum but I did mod a game they were scum in (albeit heavily unmotivated). I

think

their scumgame has some different characteristics they're not showing here and their dissatisfaction with the gamestate reads like a real feeling to me.

Menalque had good vibes early, in the recent PYP he came off glaringly fake but I knew his alignment that game so I may be overcompensating. I still feel all right there for now.

Some of Pooky's recent stuff is more closely in line with town-him for reasons I won't bother getting into.

Look back at GL and still feel like his posts are legitimately scumhunting, could frown at the lack of presence but I don't really think that's due to alignment.

My honest impression was that Praetorian's opening was a scumclaim coming from koba but I could be projecting my irritation at them immediately poking at me. Breezy display of not reading, bs claim, halfhearted reads, overly focused on defusal stuff. But possible I reacted a little strong. Malakittens hasn't really done anything to give me good feelings about the slot. Could still easily see it flipping town but no one else stands out as more suspicious right now,

Strange is a player I dont think I'm ever likely to confidently townread due to playstyle but of what she has posted I haven't really liked. I very much dislike how she's making a show of working on a list but hasn't produced anything tangible yet. I know as a player she tends to be elim bait so treading with caution I guess but yeah, not really feeling it from their posts so far.

Town reads (Strongest -> Weakest):

Andante, Greeting, Bell, Frogsterking, dwlee99

Town lean:

GuiltyLion, Pooky, Menalque, VP Baltar

Null:

Ceph, CSF, Enchant, Andresvmb, Titus, Morning Tweet

Scum reads:

fireisredsir, Malakittens, StrangeMatter

[catboi]

VOTE: fireisreadsir

I've seen basically nothing out of them that makes me change my mind on the slot

[catboi]

catboi I'd be interested in your Pooky read if you feel you can explain it later, I don't really scumread him but I'm surprised people started TRing him when he ramped up his VP push cause the VP push I think would be really easy for any capable scum to make and I don't think Pooky's argument is especially compelling under the surface

It's not a particularly confident read, certainly not as much as some people are expressing, but I think him making that sort of specific semantics-based scumread on vp baltar is more likely to come from him as town.

[catboi]

nya

ฅ(⌯͒•ꈊ͒ू •⌯͒)

[catboi]

With regard to menalque his preference is toward playing town, I got out of a scumgame recently where he was awkward as fuck, he seemed unbothered here early, good enough for a gut read. He doesn't have as much time for playing games these days so I don't think the lack of presence is particularly an alignment tell for him.

[catboi]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

He was a late day 1 replace in but not contextually equivalent but it felt like he was never able to get his footing in that game

[catboi]

Bell is probably just scum.

Highly unlikely at this point.

I don't know about "highly unlikely" but I am trending in that direction after the posts I just read on this page

Why were you scumreading him in the first place?

[catboi]

Bell is probably just scum.

Highly unlikely at this point.

I don't know about "highly unlikely" but I am trending in that direction after the posts I just read on this page

Why were you scumreading him in the first place?

He had a reason to scumread VP, but didn't want to support his elim. Felt partner-y

Ik pooky said that's the opposite of what scum Bell would do in that situation, but that's what I felt at the time

preflip associations are bad, especially on day 1 o(-`д´- ｡)

[catboi]

There is an overwhelming consensus on a large number of slots being town. So either scum is just... letting that happen correctly, or there is a deep wolf.

Two worlds here:

1.) Scum is sitting idly while town just wins
2.) Consensus opinion of many townread slots is wrong

Now 1.) DOES happen, but with this table I think it's very unlikely. I don't think many of these players are ones to just let town win.

I don't think there's anything remotely close to "a large number" of slots bein townread for a 19 player game, and I think due to the number of players having a significant number of townreads is a pretty likely thing to happen. The thing about a 19 player game is that town could theoretically have a game-winning POE on day 1 (which is highly unlikely), and scum would still have significant wiggle room for players to push (in a 19p game you'd need 10 townreads, scum would still have 5 players they could push, I don't think we're anywhere close to 10 universal townreads). The only thing scum

really

care about, in my experience, is trying to get an elimination through on town. They're not going to try to argue down popular townreads because it tends to not produce results and they're probably planning on nightkilling some of those people.

[catboi]

Oh, so you're a fan of Enchant? Name his first 5 albums

[catboi]

You literally jumped onto the Lukewarm wagon off of “Lukewarm didn’t explain scumread on me.” Which to me looked like an excuse to jump on a wagon I’d say is never a pure wagon.

Well he didn't so

My point still stands that it wouldn’t be hard to make that an excuse to just jump onto a wagon like that without taking any scrutiny.

Also, why are we suddenly nominating Enchant?

Hi, apologies for the non-sequitur, but you've made references to working on a reads list and having some scum leans you need to revisit, have you made any progress on that?

[catboi]

you're fine tbh

[catboi]

replacing Morning Tweet.

:<

[catboi]

well I made it 3 days before I got bored

[catboi]

Meh, looked at strange's iso and kind of think she's town now actually. Still haven't actually looked at andres's content.

[catboi]

hi catboi do i know you or am i thinking of someone with a coincidentally similar name

yeah I'm the same person nya

[catboi]

hi catboi do i know you or am i thinking of someone with a coincidentally similar name

yeah I'm the same person nya

why didn’t you say hi to me

rude

I'm sorry I wasn't around m(*-ω-)m

[catboi]

am trying to work my way into the game and figured engaging with a major wagon was the way

i had skimmed his iso earlier and hadn’t come away with any strong vibes so

A big part of why the slot got voted in the first place was luke's play, which both Bell and I have a fair deal of meta on. If you don't have that background it's not going to make as much sense. fire's posting mostly hasn't shook that impression for me

[catboi]

I dunno where Pooky went though and that annoys me. Though, based on his contempt for these sorts of game states based on Pokemon deleted posts in their scum QT, I could see them avoiding the game as either alignment really.

I don't think pooky avoiding the game at this moment in time is related to his alignment in this game.

[catboi]

ok eh i changed my mind again I think it's more likely scum are taking advantage of frog here to push this

VOTE: misty

Scum post.

[catboi]

In the early going, did Pooky did anything that you felt was game advancing? Like seriously. The post I highlighted is Pooky giving a complete bullshit reason to vote someone (they “feel like they picked a red PM”), and then proceeding to throw out a few half-assed accusations at players (like Morning Tweet). Did you find any of that Townie?

this is a funny comment coming from someone who didnt even fucking post for the first week or whatever

sometimes i wonder why i even log on to this website

it's for me, obviously

[catboi]

Anyway, Day 1 doesn't need to be 100 pages, and in fact the longer the thread bloats the more likely it is to have a deleterious effect on later days. Some people need to learn the art of shutting the hell up. Already I feel like the arguments right now are burning people out.

I'm reading andres now and I'm not really particularly convinced he's scum. I had typed this prior to his most recent posting spree

Nothing fireisred has posted since replacing in has given me the slightest impression he's town. Mostly I think he's a decent scum player who writes polished posts but can't string together anything resembling a meaningful scumread. There's no depth to anything they're saying, their only justificant for votes has been "gut", which, 80 pages in, is pretty nonsense. The wagon has stalled out and we keep getting these attempts at throwing up counterwagons that I'm pretty sure are a sign fire is mafia. Notably fire's votes have been on GL, MT/misty, and andres, all of whom were counterwagons to themself and on players who weren't saying much at all. They're afraid of pushing anyone who might actually bite back at them. Their overall play is toward appeasement. It's soft. Bloodless. They're hoping being inoffensive will get people to stop scumreading them.

[catboi]

HEAL: pooky
HEAL: menalque


I had typed out a heal on guiltylion because I think he'd be a decent person to have as an expert if town.

HURT: Greeting

Still town but feeling whatever on nominating them.

ho hum

VOTE: misty hi misty!

also back away from the bear catboi, he's mine >.>

part of me says that misty doesn't ply this way on replacing into a scum slot that's under suspicion, it's too careless, although that's a weak read

[catboi]

ok read some strangematter games and i get similar vibes of kinda hanging back and floating around as both alignments. so im a little less interested in pushing there for now

VOTE: GuiltyLion

People "We're voting GL for no reason"
GL just isn't here...

real exciting wagon people!! at least go pick someone who is here and get that reaction.. voting GL accomplishes nothing... yall went back to mech talk while I was gone... like ughhh I really don't understand yall. making 0 sense

it isn't no reason. i think 256 is scummy. mostly a gut thing but it gave me vibes of him feeling like he needed to come up with a read that was supported by something at that time. doesn't feel organic. and since then he's disappeared a bit which prob isn't AI but also doesn't make me think he's any more towny

This is notable because fire is hopping onto the immediate counterwagon to themself in GL, only reason cited is very thin

Can you please explain why you thought 164 felt like I was obligated to make it?

And at the same time what gave you bad vibes re: 595?

idk! it's not strong, i just kinda got "oh I'm supposed to post more of my thoughts now" vibes. like i didn't really feel like they were thoughts that most town would naturally feel inclined to share at that time, yk? not that they felt fake on their own, but i sensed some pressure of some outside force that made you want to post them. and that pressure could come from a red pm. but that can sometimes be just more of a personality thing too

i talked about 595 in 716

When questioned on their suspicion by menalque, they're soft, deflective. They do this anytime they get the sightest pyushback.

it gave me vibes of him feeling like he needed to come up with a read that was supported by something at that time

I do try to give reasons for my votes yeah

do you disagree with the actual point I was making about Baltar? the only thing I saw you say about him was he seems "normalish"

yea, that doesn't seem out of character for him to me so i don't really see it as a reason to scumread

i like your catchup posts better tho and agree on morning tweet

VOTE: Morning Tweet

ive been reading some morning tweet games and learned not much bc she replaces into games a lot and so i don't have many day 1s to compare to. i think i can buy that she can be a little less assertive early as maf. but i can also buy that she genuinely feels like she is stronger later in the game and isn't very enthused about the start of a large

so based on meta this looks well in her scumrange but not outside her townrange either. which means we can look at play instead, yay! and the play looks kinda scummy imo

Similarly, they back down almost immediately on GL and start making the next easy push on morning tweet. but the best we get cited here is that a wishy-washy statement about how her play could be in either range for her, and that her play "looks kinda scummy". 1084 is pretty similarly underwhelming, there's some semantic argument about MT's post being performative and noncommital, which is blah

rereading some slots that i didn't have a good feel for:

- CSF, i like a lot better than I did before. i think the push on dwlee is better than i thought it was at first, i kinda misread dwlee's play around andante and it's not as towny as i thought it was at first. i think 1380 is a good post as well and made me think twice about vp. doesn't really seem agenda-pushing, seems to be thinking independently, pretty towny imo

- dwlee, ive never been in a dwlee scumgame so i went and read a couple of them, especially since i liked csf posts around them. and i don't really think they're outside their scumrange here. buuut i still would slightly lean town if im looking pure meta bc i feel like they are a bit more proactive here than i saw in their scumgames. if im ignoring meta, ehhhh. @dwlee do you still think frog is maf?

- ceph feels... honest, imo, like very up front about what he's thinking and not really afraid if it looks bad. that usually makes me lean towards town. 521 was also the funniest post of the game, so points for that

- malakittens/the praetorian... yea nothing towny here. not blatantly scummy either, but i think the catchup attempt was pretty weak and didn't really result in any thoughts

i still think the slots im most sus of and that are most likely to have scum are not really present at the moment. there could be scum in the more talkative players but im not really seeing who? it would fit in dwlee's world of scum just sitting back and letting the town win if that isn't, like, an active choice of theirs. maybe they're just not here

This is a super wortthless post, softly calling a bunch of people town, nothing pushing anywhere. common trend with fire.

Now here I feel like there is a lot of insight and it kind of all just comes tumbling out at the same time. Dwlee is a townread of yours? And Strange is a scum lean would you say? Would you say that Strange is comparable to Tweet here, are Strange and Tweet different kinds of scummy or different levels of scummy?

at the time, dwlee was a townread. now, less so.

strange was a scumlean at that time but some people have said that she is kind of like that all the time. so id still have her on the scum side of the table but im not very interested in pushing there yet, i think other places are more interesting

tweet is def a different kind of scummy. strange was like a positioning scummy, tweet was more of a gut read based on the way she was approaching forming her posts. at the time idk who was stronger, but currently tweet is def a stronger scumread, and i think (partly due to lion writing things out) i also have a better sense of what exactly i found scummy about her posts

These scumreads are all super vague and worthless, there's nothing behind them, no meaningful evidence, nothing that suggests to me in any way these are real thoughts

1) greeting and frog are prob town. both have kinda questionable takes, but they're still prob town

2) catboi is prob town but is scary so you never know. ceph feels towny to me but maybe he's just likeable

3) i think there's multiple scum in the people who are mostly missing: tweet and menalque i scumread off play. andres, malakittens, enchant slot are in that category too but i don't really scumread them off play. i don't townread them either tho, so eh

4) i think there's likely to be scum in people wanting to take advantage of frog and/or people coasting off a luke scumread. csf and bell both fit this category but in my heart i kinda townread both. my heart can be wrong and often is

5) dwlee is probably just scum here actually lol

6) strange could also easily be scum... but the whole readslist thing that people are pushing her over is kinda BS imo. the general positioning and floatiness is kinda scummy on its own but apparently she does that a lot

7) vp and andante... hm. with both i think i WANT to townread them. but do I? idk. slightly hesitant here, but sort of trusting for now. i do think that a scum might try to kind of get on my side here, if you will. MT kinda did that so maybe it's just her. buuut i think its something to watch out for. maybe lion fits in that category too? hmm I hadn't thought of that until now but... it's possible

8) pooky and titus both kinda fit the category of strong player who isn't doing much. lately, catboi is falling into that category too. i dunno what to make of that. with a p strong player list, my guess is that this would be more likely to come from town who isn't too worried about needing to be active yet. if they were maf i feel like they would feel some pressure to work their way into a town core here. so... i don't think i would say im townreading them, but im ok with assuming they're town for now and dealing with them later if im still here

i think that's everybody

Again, this is just...very useless. It's like fire is pulling all his punches. Not willing to accuse anyone.

frog has still given a total of 0 reasons why he thinks im scum

Notably this kind of point is something fire says in response to pressure from frogster a bit, logically it feels like they

should

be scumreading frogster in response but they can't do it, it just feels like trying to discredit him

also im not opposed to the andres wagon and might join it if it picks up, but i am a little paranoid about a vp/misty pairing. and that doesn't really make me want to switch my vote away from misty at the moment

ok good enough for me

BUT CONSIDER MY PARANOIA NOTED

sure ok let's do it

VOTE: andres

this is again a super scummy sequence, there's nothing here to make it look like fire actually believes in this vote, he's just jumping at another counterwagon. notably in 1811 he says "i read andres posts and i don't find them especially towny or scummy." but rather than investigating or trying to refine the read he just hops on the wagon when it's gaining steam.

my MT read is mostly gut anyway, i think there's like actually decent points against andres even tho i don't have much of a gutread on him. i like my gut a lot, so don't tell it i said this, but regretfully it is rarely correct on d1

and actually, misty's vote there right after i called out how I was worried about vp/misty pairing made me feel better about switching, not worse. bc i would think scum would be too self-conscious to do that like immediately after being called out. super bold play if scum there

Look at this. Does any of this reasoning come from a town player? It's completely half-assed.

ok eh i changed my mind again I think it's more likely scum are taking advantage of frog here to push this

VOTE: misty

im willing to consider the possibility that im wrong, and am interested to see who joins this wagon

I don't think I'm buying this. You were just saying not to lend frog's absurd theories (and they are absurd) any credence, but now that it's convenient for you you're on board. I also hate seeing both you and misty here together no matter what the each of you voting the other status was before, and no I have not checked.

vp swayed me tbh but now that im looking at things again i think i should not have been so easily convinced

ok eh i changed my mind again I think it's more likely scum are taking advantage of frog here to push this

VOTE: misty

Which scum? To me, those scum could well be you and misty.

my paranoia was a vp/misty pairing bc vp never considered the misty wagon despite his love of pushing for dueling wagons early on d1. csf would be another possibility to consider

Hops off, distances himself from the wagon, but the best citation he can give is vague paranoia fearmongering. There's no real analysis to any of it.

[catboi]

I hate doing these quote walls because I feel like people don't engage with them, but I am less than thrilled with the directions people have been spinning off in and am not content to play passively.

fire's scum, just zip it up and send them already before everyone decides they're sick of this game

[catboi]

OMG catboi fire is scum, andres is scum, kill andres D1 because he will be more helpful to scum for solving the mechanics of the nightplay.

If you vote andres D1 I will vote fire D2.

ftr if fire slips scum you should be piledriven for this post

[catboi]

You realize I modded that game where andres was scum and most of his scumplay consisted of burying his head in the sand and praying not to be killed, right

[catboi]

me: id like to be healed for a specific reason
thread: crickets
mena: id like to be healed because lol
thread: showers mena in healing

ok i see how it is. HEAL: mena, whatever.

I will be honest here, if you asked this I missed it, I am reading very selectively

HEAL: ceph

[catboi]

Congrats to the town for winning! [esp Mena, Bell, GLion, CSF, Catboi, Dwlee for being amazing]

I was awful, but than you anyway. Agree that the other names you mentioned were amazing, would add that Ceph played wonderfully this game from what I saw.