KTaNE [game over!]

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VOTE: StrangeMatter

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hi catboi hello Pooooookyyyyyyyyyyy hi Luke hi again Andante hi VP hi GL hi Dwleee hia Ceph greetings Greeting hi Andre hi Cat scratch hi Mena hi Titus hello Bell!!

And hello everybody!

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it feels like this game is like rpg mafia where you're kinda trying to just find the best mechanical way to play it regardless of intended game mechanics

Frogster do u know if we have played before?

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i understand it's prolly not decided but are we trying to put town or scum in the defuser's seat

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I wonder if this game is singlehandedly grinding the site to a halt. i wouldn't be surprised

I'm going to play the game mechanics the more intuitive way for now but if there's a broken strategy im sure we won't be hearing the end of it

HEAL: Greeting

mena, what was your motivation behind asking? This time anyway

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I think the idea to fail defusals by default is correct for reasons catboi explained, but I'm also having an emotional reaction against it due it being counter to the nature of the set-up as well as the resulting loss of my agency lol

I am getting the feeling my impression of the setup might be correct, where it's technically stronger to put up scum in order to box them or however the mechanic works

but then we don't get to play and they're just going to like, I guess succeed on purpose? So we'd lose the entire defusal/resistance part of the game in favour of basically an investigation vote?

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I’m sad u wouldn’t answer me, morning :(

Why do you ask every game? i'm soury though i guess im not in the mood

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I appreciate the explanation Frog. although I couldn't come near trying to help with what is optimal

I can't tell what determines how many bomb experts there are, from the rules or the VCs. I would think you would want as few as possible as to narrow the pool if a defuse fails (and we wanted it to succeed anyway)

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Ah I found it. It's 4 n1, then 3 until there are 7 players alive at which it becomes 2. Sorry about that

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The most intuitive way by far is to nominate 4 of the towniest experts, try to succeed, and if it fails we know at least a scum is in the group. So like resistance

But as mentioned, since scum chooses the defuser, they can reliably always stop us from succeeding a defusal, if they wish. Although it seems to me that they would have to send a scum player to sabotage the defuse, which would kill them in the process and therefore be worth it for town anyway

Is that not true? Although I see that 8 bombs need to be defused for a win, which seems like a ton

What is the biggest factor preventing us from just sending people to try and be bomb experts, like in resistance, have them try to succeed, and if there's a failure, it's guaranteed someone sabotaged so we still learn something?

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

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And yes I'm sorry for probably rehashing what's already been talking about probably but it's the only way i can really participate in mech

The alternate wincons don't seem like something that will get completed, so much as something to make the bombs actually have some kind of stakes. At least, it seems to me that was the design goal anyway. whether or not it can be broken, ill leave up to others

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i have never seen a slot like frog's in a large theme not be town, yet. the kinda person who tried to solve all 18 other players on page 10. This would be like the third time that i can remember though. i dont like larges

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8 players who have the most nominations at eod1 will be bomb experts on n1.

That is way more than iw as expecting

pedit: If I had to guess because it sets the bar too high. i'm not sure scum comes out of the gate purporting to be able to solve everything, but like it seems a distinct type of player enjoys the challenge and then seriously does it

it was Pink_Ball in the team mafia game i don't say the name of, as well as someone in a mafia invitational trainwreck i played some years back

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Oh that's not what you asked.

Spoiler: for frog

larges (at least, non-grand idea or otherwise bastard ones where everyone dies immediately) have a higher amount of arguments since i mean there's just so much content it's bound to happen. there's a higher chance i personally will get annoyed, since there's more players too

There's also the curse of playing with people you like. I prefer smaller games with a couple of people i know and the rest people im less familar with. In Larges a lot of times though you already know a lot of the players which for me personally is a lot less fun, it's harder for me to push people i like or have to argue with them

Something like that. Larges just have a higher chance of going wrong for me. i couldd fall 30 pages behind in a day or get in a toxic fight out of nowhere and then i'll be trapped for like forever cause larges take so long to end too sometimes.

It may or may not be actually true that larges are more likely to go wrong, but i just happen to have played in more unfun larges than i can keep track of

I really like the playerlist and the setup so i joined but i'm still mostly picturing all the other large themes ive played so i feel really complain-y. But if you were really curious why then there

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u weren't annoying Mena i just meant I'm on extra guard it feels like. Ur good

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What is the biggest factor preventing us from just sending people to try and be bomb experts, like in resistance, have them try to succeed, and if there's a failure, it's guaranteed someone sabotaged so we still learn something?

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

Had I rolled scum this game my goal would have been to propose something more or less like the former, playing it like resistance, and blitz the alternate win condition. Four successes is a small amount and it's certainly easier than trying to cut through an enormous amount of townies with a limited supply of nightkills. I would think there's at least a few other players in this game who'd think that way.

I said "fail by default" with the assumption the defuser is unlikely to be a consensus townread and it's more valuable to flip anyone there is some uncertainty about. Saving someone from the bomb should mean you'd be willing to bet the game on them being town.

What I'm trying to say is that reflexively trying to pass/fail people is bad, I suppose, although that's a much less exciting and cool-sounding approach.

And yes I'm sorry for probably rehashing what's already been talking about probably but it's the only way i can really participate in mech

The alternate wincons don't seem like something that will get completed, so much as something to make the bombs actually have some kind of stakes. At least, it seems to me that was the design goal anyway. whether or not it can be broken, ill leave up to others

I don't particularly mind the discussions at this point because hashing it out is useful and sometimes people can be read off their involvement with the mechanics. (not always necessarily in the obvious Greeting way, but still)

Let's say scum tries to win via the alternate way though -- do they need all mafia to be highly townread (or many of them) in order for it to work, or just one? If mafia keeps selecting the same person to defuse won't it become obvious they're abusing that? Whereas if the defuser changes each time, i find it extremely unlikely every single mafia manages to be the towniest players. Or even get close to that, really

true though if the defuser is just some person and not a consensus townread, then it doesn't really make sense to help them defuse, I agree. Which is a shame because i think that more than likely we're going to end up in a place where the mech isn't getting used. Obviously not the fault of the ppl suggesting that, though, just how the game works

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LOL so I looked at this saw like "ORDER MATTERS" and was like, how the heck did you order the non posters... like yeah I'm town, but this sounds too good to be a true list... but then you specified the non poster order doesn't matter... (Definitely a tangent, but I had a good laugh and had to share)

LMFAO i mnissed that

^ This post feels so bad... Like, why are you asking someone why they don't like large games? what info from that answer do you want? Feels like you're just trying to "look busy"

You yourself just acknowledged that frog posted a readlist of every person in the game, ordered, including the nonposters.

how can you also bring up "busywork" in the same breath?

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(it's not just about the readslist but you get the idfea. frog basically came off like the equivalent of a mafia overachiever to me, yet you're honing in on like the one time he's not doing that

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Not accusing u or anything no. I just think it wrong to accuse someone who is clearly setting themselves up to be very involved with the game as doing.. like, busywork. Busywork I usually associate with scum that dont know what to do with themselves, so they just ask questions and make obvious observations.

Like if you quote any other frog post, would you still call it busywork? Why is it the one time he asks a question that doesnt seem helpful to you, it's now busywork? Context is important

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Why don't we just heal whoever puts out reads day 1 and go from there?

What does this mean?

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Ohhhhh so the people we heal cant be killed or set as the defuse then? Ahhhh so in other words itd be much easier for scum to put themselves in the defuse seat. I think I understand you now @catboi

It's kind of up to us the pool scum picks from.. the dilemma makes a lit more sense now.

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Yeah but if it dont and scum is the defuser it advances an alternate wincon.

And if we nominate town to be the experts, and those experts cant he the bomb defuser, then scum can sneak ppl into defuser spot more easily. If I'm understanding this correctly

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praetorian have we had the pleasure of playing together before?

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As you wish. I was curious about your heal

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Feel like VP snowed me in Revelations mafia. That was a much different game and time period, though. Basically VP and Auro (both scum) had the most suspicion throughout D1, theatred really hard, Auro died then VP ended up being the lone wolf that had to go through the endgame stuff

pedit: OH! I remember that now! The Praetorian, of course

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VOTE: Pooky

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pooooooooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkuuuuuuuy hi

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see how what is going to beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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andante have you noticed a difference between the me in this game versus the game we just played previously? I'm refering to the grandest idea one ofc]

pedit pedit pedit pedit: Okay bye :(

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Gib me your last heal Pooky

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I feel like Pooky would need to have really polished scum play for their current iso to come from scum.

I feel Catboi is TMIing with their VP and Andante reads,

but maybe he's just got good reads.

Luke complaining about the catch up and overreacting to my read is a bad look.

What in Pooky's play this game stood out to you?

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andante have you noticed a difference between the me in this game versus the game we just played previously? I'm refering to the grandest idea one ofc]

pedit pedit pedit pedit: Okay bye :(

lol I promise I'm leaving soon.. got stuff to do!!! lol, but yeah like, grandest idea, I felt like you and pooky were just being funny, here yall aren't really even talking to each other? umm yeah that's all I got, cause truth be told, I paid minimal attention to that game, was busy with real life

Wait you're reading me off of my interactions with Pooky? i actually just came on to see my favourite bear !! lol

I was.... scum in grand idea.....? Oh wait no I wasn't. I was third party. Truth be told i cant remember why i brought it up. I played like, mostly town-me in that game but it was still a hell of an unusual game

Uhh to comment on this though, my mood and general tone varies wildly from game to game. that game i thought Pooky and I argued good naturedly for probably the first half then actually argued for the second. That's just how the nature of that game was though, it wasn't because i was town in my mind. I tend to gravitate towards Pooky because i enjoy playing with him, even when arguing sometimes which is very rare for me

pedit: LOL

So Frog if nothing stands out and he's playing the way he usually does then I'm a bit confused what you're saying

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Actually I guess you probably mean that nothing scummy stood out to you. I still don't see how that thought connects with how Pooky would have to be playing in polished manner though

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excuse me i tried very hard to pocket tweetie in that GIM game

i even tried to recruit her but she is very anti-fun

i really wanted a 3p win!!! you're the one who gave me 0 chance whatsoever to respond to the "guilty"

Lukewarm sounds kind of deflated. I like the "go through the thread and mark townpings" approach. I've definitely had games (especially harder to parse ones) where that's all i feel like i have reads-wise

although on the other hand Luke felt a bit more disconnected earlier than im used to. He made comments on some of my mechanical posts i had early, but those posts had already been hashed out and the things he was pointing out i had all already known. This could be what others are pointing out I'm not sure.

Andante lol i know sorry that was a stupid question in hindsight. I get alignments of previous games mixed a lot

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HEAL: Andante
HEAL: Frog

VOTE: Cephrir

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First time replacing??? It's like mafia, but better in *almost* every conceivable way!

Im not sure I buy Luke as scum but I'll leave it at that

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Well that's the intended game design I mentioned way back that no one really was super keen on

I thiiiiiiink were (at least I'm under the assumption) going to just see who the defuser are, then leave it to the experts to hash out. I'm not sure if there is a flaw in that plan, though

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ya dat

Titus do you have non mech related thoughts? I could glean you townread Andante and fid scumread Luke/fire (At least I think).

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Yup that's why i found it interessting as i saw it, there were at least a few

Me having a rough time getting mech is just baseline. Same with bitching about large games... check, yup.

pedit @ catboi

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Morning tweet im still having a hard time understanding you. How do you motivate yourself to post when you roll town vs roll scum?

I would say it's more dependent on the game than my alignment. I'm primarily motivated by solving an already mostly played out game, as opposed to reading through interactions.

But you can really only do the latter D1 so I tend to be pretty weak. i also really really detest larger games because i usually don't end up reading the entire game, which hurts my confidence and motivation a lot -- at least, when the pages are growing and I'm not there.

In general my town game just varies wildly and i can't give you a great answer on what motivates me.

As scum, I'm not sure, I haven't rolled it in a serious setting in forever. I find it very easy to play in grand idea or otherwise super bastard games, but i attribute that more to those games than my actual play as scum being good.

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Ceph might be scum because they feel the same as usual and they're usually scum. Someone brought up earlier something in the vein of how they aren't playing differently and i liked that

I thought VP didn't really react much to pressure which was the opposite impression I got from him when he was scum threatreing against Auro in our last game

I haven't really played with scum!Luke i just noticed he hit some of the notes that i get when im town and frustrated and everything i say just brings more votes. on the other hand i did not like any of his mechanical posts , felt like pointing out the obvious. I also haven't played with fire

Bell could be scum he's usually obvtown, i don't know Strange, Titus could be, GL maybe, he reminds me of last appearance when he was a little outspoken early then I didn't really notice him again

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VOTE: GL

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S2g no one will ever just let me do a thing without some genius trying to put me on the defensive for trying

LOL

The mafia experience

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Ceph ur easily scum this game that's all I'm saying

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I don't want to say shit cause my reads are mostly could be's, im not trying to convince anyone of anytthing. Just trying to give a window

I thought Andante and Greeting were good for an early town start although i've seen a lot of reversal on that recently. i had not realized Andante was a rlly good scum player although I still would be much more surprised to see them scum than others

pedit: No it's not that'd be an insult to your scum game

I'm not trying to say you're automatically scum i just thought oyu haven't done anything that would surprise me

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I'm not trying to say you're automatically scum i just thought oyu haven't done anything that would surprise me

I dont object to that. Weird reason for a vote tho. I'm not sure if I've ever left my scumrange this early in a game

i just place my vote on an existing wagon i think reasonably can flip scum, and barring that, i just whoever i feel most strongest about at the time

I voted you because someone said u weren't like, jumping for joy at being town. which like hey maybe you just rolled scum again and that's why you seem the same

I'm voting GL now anyway so i dont know if this rlly matters sorry bt that lol

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I thought Greeting's early posting was really strong even if that post didn't really resonate with me as much.

pedit: I'm voting GL because i think he has a reasonable chance of being scum

I don't have an option i prefer right now. What do you want me to do instead

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I already said what i thought about the main wagon options. I'm pretty sure im like the only person voting for GL anyway

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i was trying to say that i could see the argument but i felt i had an equally valid one myself

That would be why i didnt vote for luke even though i usually join major wagons if i can't rebut them

i do think your reaction, like, that im TMIing you as town, is good though

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I also think that the majority of players think the same way I do

This type of thinking is responsible for a large amount of bad reads in mafia games.

i would strive to read players for the way they think rather than the way you do, because you're quickly going to realize no one thinks quite like you do

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do you struggle with large games Titus? I feel like this has happened a lot where you've fallen behind, like I can think of at least 3 other large games like that. 2 town and 1 scum, of course

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I think I wanna revisit your lion thing later, cause agreeing with someone on a sr is kinda just meh... like, MT has basically been SRed from the start I think, so it's not exactly an original read.. so I'm not a huge fan of the read

really? ig i wasn't here, but i didn't see anyone comment on MT looking scummy until after i came in. ill go have a look tho

It's pretty normal for me, there is no correlation I have noticed between people hounding on me D1 and their alignment

the read itself is more important than it simply happening. i like the angle. At least, I think fire is saying I'm scum watching town sink and being noncommital about it. It's not an unreasonable read and it was well thought out after u prompted more from them

Now at risk of arguing against myself, why'd you switch from scumreading me to townreading me midway? i personally haven't noticed a change yet

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i also don't think catboi is doing no solving and didn't say i was TRing him for that. i just don't think he's sharing all of his solving with the thread, and just commenting on something when he feels it's worth doing. maybe he does that as scum sometimes too but in this case at least i feel towny vibes. he was also more outwardly pushing people earlier, like with luke, and that felt towny to me too

I really like this too, although I disagree with townreading catboi for that. It's reasoning that feels genuine to me but not something i find swaying

everything I say on D1 ends up sounding like this, yes I know

GL still lines up with my impression of him as scum

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Dwlee seems like town

I havent read enough to tell if someone is calling Greeting into question but i got that impression. Greeting is solidly town