KTaNE [game over!]

[Lukewarm]

Hello

VOTE: bell[/b]

[Lukewarm]

I have found a town read, but it's probably for a dumb reason lol

[Lukewarm]

@Datisi, does the defuser have to accept the recommendations of the experts?

yes. the defuser

must

accept the recommendations, and

cannot

submit solutions on their own.

This is not what I expected while reading the rules.

So a successful bomb defusal tells us nothing about the defuser, and only reflects on the experts?

[Lukewarm]

So, if I am understanding the rules, if we purposefully let the bombs explode, the mafia basically get 1 NK each starting on Night 2 (the person that they send to be the defuser)

Also, in that scenario, the mafia get

3 night kills

night 1! (Their true night kill + 2 difusers).


If we are trying to defuse bombs, then the mafia gets 1 NK if they send their own, or .5 NKs if they send a townie, and presumably don't get a night 1 triple kill.

-----

But if we are trying to solve the bombs, and one goes off that gives us info, but if we are always trying to let the bomb explode, then we don't get any info.

------

I think that even if letting the bombs go off is correct in the long term, we should probably try to property diffuse the bombs night 1, because 3 town deaths night one sounds scary

[Lukewarm]

If we are trying to defuse bombs, then the mafia gets 1 NK if they send their own, or .5 NKs if they send a townie, and presumably don't get a night 1 triple kill.

This could also give us info if they are getting night kills.

[Lukewarm]

So, I actually think that we should do like 3 proper bomb defusions, and then never defuse a bomb again

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Lukewarm

Based on my understanding of how the setup works then there is a clear scum motivation in 71.

Please explain

[Lukewarm]

I have found a town read, but it's probably for a dumb reason lol

I'm interested. What is your town read? What is your reason?

Titus. And a dumb thing about wording in post 36

[Lukewarm]

My bad, Luke. UNVOTE: Luke There's probably at least one lurker scum who hasn't even said anything yet so there's no way Luke goes in the bottom of the PoE. There's also no way Luke goes in the top of the PoE because fake game solving is a part of Luke's scum range.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I have so many questions.

Are you saying that your original reason for scum reading me was for "fake game solving"? If so, what did you mean here

VOTE: Lukewarm

Based on my understanding of how the setup works then there is a clear scum motivation in 71.

"Clear scum motivation" and "fake game solving" don't feel equivalent.

What was the original "clear scum motivation"?

Why do you no longer concerned by it?

Also, have we ever played a game of mafia together before?

[Lukewarm]

(I am very behind lol)

[Lukewarm]

HEAL: Frogsterking

Titus want to talk more about your town read of Frogster?

[Lukewarm]

i understand it's prolly not decided but are we trying to put town or scum in the defuser's seat

We don't get to chose the defuser. The mafia does.

We get to chose the "experts" who will tell the defuser what to do

[Lukewarm]

I am truly baffled by frogster's progression on me.

From "clear scum motivation" and a vote in post 73 (Still scum lean in 84 and 88)

To apologizing for scum reading me (?) in post 99.

To being in null, but am above catboi, Tweetie, Mena, Bell, GuiltyLion, and VP Baltar in 137

I was completely absent from the thread during this time. (My last post was 80)

[Lukewarm]

The reason I scumread you was because you initially appeared to be pushing a strategy that was scumsided.

Can you please explain what about my suggestion was scumsided?

[Lukewarm]

I feel like lukewarm sorts themselves with enthusiasm. I’d be voting them if I didn’t know where they were 2 hours ago.

I am very enthusiastic as scum. Please find another way to sort me, thanks!

[Lukewarm]

And yes I'm sorry for probably rehashing what's already been talking about probably but it's the only way i can really participate in mech

The alternate wincons don't seem like something that will get completed, so much as something to make the bombs actually have some kind of stakes. At least, it seems to me that was the design goal anyway. whether or not it can be broken, ill leave up to others

I don't think town EVER wins with the alt wincon, but the scum team could. If we decide to always correctly do the bombs, then they could just send themselves for the win.

That is why we can't really do that. We can solve some bombs, but can't blanket say that we are going to solve all of them

[Lukewarm]

I feel like lukewarm sorts themselves with enthusiasm. I’d be voting them if I didn’t know where they were 2 hours ago.

I am very enthusiastic as scum. Please find another way to sort me, thanks!

No.

You have not ever played with me as scum. So, you're saying "Luke is Luke"

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=88398

I was VERY enthusiastic this game, and was scum thank you very much.

[Lukewarm]

my eyes have glazed over the last few pages of my catch up

[Lukewarm]

I think protecting townreads with the bomb expert might be a fruitless venture since they can't be picked back to back. And idk if it's worth wasting a ton of good picks tonight when future expert positions require us to get fewer right. I kinda want to just throw the picks today to whoever, but if we do have express scumreads going in, keep them in the same group?

Scum are guaranteed a night kill tonight, but are not guaranteed a night kill on following nights. So this is the only night that we could reasonably know if we are protecting someone or not.

[Lukewarm]

I volunteer to be the bomb defuser.

Is this directed at the scum team, or have you still not gotten a grasp on the set up? lol

[Lukewarm]

I don't have 8 town leans yet, but
HEAL: Titus
HEAL: Andante
HEAL: Tweetie
HEAL: StrangeMatter
HEAL: Greeting

VOTE: Pooky

[Lukewarm]

Also, Luke, you play with frogster before?

No mafia games before, but once in marathon game of One Night Ultimate Werewolf.

[Lukewarm]

I have caught up. I am going to sleep.

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm, you posted the exact same thing the last time I said that about you.
I'm more multilayered and oversimplify, sure.

Just to go back to this.

I don't like feeling like someone is giving me a town read on the basis that they think I would be bad as scum, when I think I am pretty decent. Not great, but decent.

Unwnd was probably the worst offender on this, like pretty blatantly said in every game we played in together x x

And "an enthusiastic Luke = a town Luke" kinda feels like "luke can't fake his baseline enthusiasm as scum" so yeah...

Although, it turns out you are using the inverse of it, as "Luke is not currently enthusiastic so I scum read him" so at the very least, you can be proven wrong this game. Last time I was enthusiastic, you said it, and then I flipped town.

[Lukewarm]

I don't have 8 town leans yet, but
HEAL: Titus
HEAL: Andante
HEAL: Tweetie
HEAL: StrangeMatter
HEAL: Greeting

VOTE: Pooky

hold up, so the 5 you healed are your town leans? could I get some explanations on those?

I have transitioned from my computer, to cell phone in bed, but yeah,those are my town leans at the end of my catch up.

Mostly gut. As I went through my read of the game, I had a note pad open and I made a note each time someone pinged me one way or the other. These names all netted positive town pings by the end.

Titus was my early town read for a dumb reason. Greeting was for their attempted way to break the nomination process, both for trying to break it and because it was based off faulty understanding of game design which is a nice town looking combo imo.

You Tweetie and Strangematter are more tone / gut. I can try to find specific posts tomorrow when I am back at my pc tho

[Lukewarm]

Titus was my early town read for a dumb reason.

Oh, and after that I actually found her non-serious mason claim townie, even if I dont like fake mason claiming.

Both from an approach from her towards a possible miselim if he is town, but not in a way that I think scum would do for a partner if he is scum. But also in a similarity in how I've seen her approach games before.

I would say greeting and Titus are my strongest reads of those 5

[Lukewarm]

HEAL: frogster
HEAL: Greeting
HEAL: catboi
HEAL: Andante

Like so far Cat's slot is just good take after good take so I'm getting townie paranoia and wondering if Cat is obv townie or if I'm being pocketed.

I don't like that frog called it "townie paranoia" vs just paranoia.

Also not sure that I buy the thinking a couple posts back as genuine - the one about cat specifically targeting then for a pocket with their entrance

[Lukewarm]

Uhh I have a massively unfinished list so people not mentioned are essentially no clues or I have had the chance to look into.

Not willing to vote out
Andante

Would be fine with voting out.
Frogsterking
Dwlee (Partial paranoia but he just feels like how he played in Mini 2265 and I can never get a read on him.

I found it quite funny that strange was asked for a full reads list, and says they have "massively unfinished one" - and then posts a list with e names in a 19 player game lmao

Scum!strange could have easily padded this out at least a little bit, so thinking this is town strange still getting a footing on reads

[Lukewarm]

601 looks like a scumpost to me.

I agree

[Lukewarm]

(but am probably biased lol)

[Lukewarm]

601 looks like a scumpost to me.

I agree

I'm not seeing it, please explain what about it looks scummy, and in addition to that, can I get your thoughts on Cat Scratch please?

My lukewarm algorithm is reading red.

"I have a way of reading Luke and it makes me think that he is scum"

When asked to back up his read, his response was

It’s pretty much related to how they’re navigating suspicion. What they’re choosing to address, how long they choose to address a topic, etc.

Could you highlight where pls? I’ve looked at the iso and I can maybe get on board but I want a better idea of what you’re seeing first

I have no idea how to highlight vague pattern differentials.
They’ll post more. Maybe those new posts will trip your scumdar.
Maybe skim the scum game they linked that they’re proud of.
And see the differences between town luke and scum luke.

I’m not sure how much you’ve played with them tho, so I’m not sure how familiar you are with town luke.

-I cannot point to any posts or really explain it
-Second line precludes the possibility that I could be town
-Tells someone else to go do meta work to figure out why I am scum, despite not being able to say anything about it themselves

Felt more like posturing about me being scum then an actual read.

[Lukewarm]

can I get your thoughts on Cat Scratch please?

I did not garner any substantive thoughts on CatS on my initial read through this morning

[Lukewarm]

This rebuttal is so uninspired that you might as well have said “no, u”

no u

But also, was not a rebuttal. Was an answer to Andante's question.

[Lukewarm]

I don't think 610 is a read town makes, like, ever.

I'm currently working on a thing, which will talk more about the StrangeMatter Read.

But it is taking time to type up

[Lukewarm]

Town

Spoiler: StrangeMatter

5870 - I very much like that SM was trying to move the conversation out of mech talk. +town points imo. 70 more so then 58.

87 I like they are questioning town reads on them instead of just accepting it, and it even lead into paranoia of the slot in 175

I stand by the fact that their reads list in 535 had a total of 3 names to be town indicative for them. SM was not even taking the time to flesh out most of the reasons, so could have easily put more names in there - even just copying a couple consensus reads.

I have also seen town!StangeMatter say the exact same general idea behind "Partial paranoia but he just feels like how he played in Mini 2265 and I can never get a read on him" in two separate games. Putting people down as scum leans because they bamboozled them in the past.

They did it with me here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

They did it another time with Dwlee here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13200640

This is distinctly in line with how town!StrangeMatter thinks about slots, even if it is a strange approach.

I like 546 as well

I would be VERY surprised it StrangeMatter flips scum here. SM is a LHF player that is often misread.

Spoiler: Greeting

Post 85 is singlehandedly holding this read up lol.
This strategy is built on a false premise, but is very clearly thought through with that premise. If that premise was correct, it would game break.

I cannot see this post coming from scum.

If Greeting really thought that that was the correct premise, then they never would have shared it, because it loses them the game and there was no expectation for them to be doing this anyways. Just ignore and hope no one finds it.

If Greeting knew that this was incorrect, that is a LOT of effort to get a townslip read. And it goes way more in depth and detailed then it would need to be if that was the goal.

Also, if the goal was "make a fake plan, so that someone can town read me for messing up" I doubt they double down in defending the plan, instead of thinking "objective achieved" in response to the town read from catboi outlining it. [see 94, 100, 105]

Spoiler: Titus

Figured I would explain the dumb working thing about 36. It was the asynchronous way she referred to the scum team in the conclusion of each line.

then they win | then scum lose
scum win | we win

I would expect scum to be thinking more to make sure they don't mess up and say we, us, them to refer to the wrong group. (which is why, more often then not, I expect something like that to actually be a town mistype). But in trying to make sure that in this repeated if then scenario, they were actually worried about that, I would expect it to be more consistent.

So, yeah. That was my dumb reason to town read titus.

Re: the "stop voting my mason." It distinctly reminded me of her town hunting approach in a prior game. I thought it was 2226, but looking back at that game I am not seeing exactly what I was reminded of... so it must have been a different game. Not trudging through all of my games to find it.

Morning Tweet

- Strong tonal / Gut feelings. Not things that I think would make sense to try and compile, but also felt myself nodding along to basically every single post she made.

Andante

- similar to Morning Tweet, but with a spicy splash of calling me town when I am getting scum read.

Null Town

Spoiler: Frogsterking

Might be surprised to see him here.

My main follow through with them was trying to make it make sense that I went from bottom of their poe with a vote -> middle of the pack without any input from me. Which took a frustratingly long time to get an understanding of. Like multiple times asking what was scummy in the original, and what made him stop thinking it was scummy. All of his responses were vague enough that I could not piece together the thought process. Post 410 finally got me there.

Now that I am no longer trying to solve that puzzle, I think that I like their iso.

I like the early town read on StrangeMatter. It originally pinged me because it seemed so definitive, but I am coming to realize that that is just the tone that Frogster is bringing to the table. (SM being called a weak town read ranked lower then Cephir not long after in post 88 clears that up a bit imo)

I originally didn't like the multiple comments about people trying to pocket them [526 and 565] because I have found that that is something scum comment on while trying to fake town thinking. BUT I did a meta dive, and found another town game where he had a similar approach to SomethingSmart Other
Game

Spoiler: The Praetorian

Random bulletproof claim in 176 seems real once I thought about it more. In this set up, it would make sense that if we have any kill stop moves they would not function on the bomb, and I have seen games where bulletproof only stops gun based deaths.So I like it as something that we would have as part of the set up.

I don't think it makes sense for us to have a vig in this set up, so I would not expect it on the mafia.

And then there is the seemingly unawareness of the fact that a bulletproof player should want to NOT be a bomb expert tonight. Which I feel like would have come up by someone in a scum chat if they talked about claiming bulletproof.

Spoiler: Cephrir

Generally vibing with Cephir's posts this game, but not sold on him as town.

Really liked post 134, which feels like to me that he is really thinking about optimal town play.

Random thought of the day: Someone mentioned he should be happier about being town, if town, because of how often he rolls scum. He was accused of this in Control, while playing scum. I kinda feel like scum!Cephir would be ready for that angle this game since there is quite an over lap of players [Bell, catboi, greeting, dwlee, andante], and would have thought to fake it this game.

[[I was planning on doing the whole playerlist, but god am I getting exhausted, gonna skip to the bottom and work my way up]]

Null

Menalque
GuiltyLion
Andresvmb

Null Scum

PookyTheMagicalBear (just a side note, I am notoriously bad at reading Pooky when Pooky is on their main)
The Bulge
Dwlee99
Bell

Scum

Spoiler: catboi

OMGUS

But for serious, I think that this is scum Catboi.

I have so many thoughts, but I feel like I am going to end up typing a thesis paper that won't convince anyone.... and I am struggling to express it in a way that is clear.

[I just typed out a rambling mess, and deleted it]

He feels like he is staking strategic positioning around people, vs naturally being in the game. I felt that way about his early interactions with Pooky (which also felt similar to the way he positioned around pooky in our Secret Hitler game), with the praetorian and mena in post 203, and with me.

His approach to me actually reminds me of scum!Prism's approach to me in our last game together, which was only the second ever time I have been miseliminated as town, so probably a good approach to have.

[omg , deleted another rambling mess.]

I am very certain in this read, but I don't think I type it out in a way that makes sense, so poo poo on me, I am actually just not good at the game.

Hey guys, if Catboi ever dies, and flips scum, probably look at Bell. If Catboi flips town, Bell can go up a couple notches on my reads list

Tried and failed repeatedly to get my thoughts out on Catboi. Which further exhausted me, and made me not really feel like attempting my weaker reads. So, this is what you guys get

UNVOTE:

[Lukewarm]

Bell I read your notes PT lol

[Lukewarm]

Fire/cephrir/Dwlee99

/

malakittens

Has scum in it.
I hope. Could you imagine if it didn’t.

You got one!

*snicker*

I also find it fun that endearing that you snicker to yourself in your own notes pt