KTaNE [game over!]

[Greeting]

Boom boom boom boom
I don't want you in my room

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

Also hi everyone.

[Greeting]

3. bomb defusals - defusing the bomb:
once night starts, the bomb defuser will receive their bomb, and each bomb expert will receive a part of that bomb's defusal manual.
the bomb defuser and all bomb experts will be added into a private topic for the night. the defuser's job is to describe the bomb, and the experts' job is to tell the defuser how to defuse the bomb, based on their description and the manual they have received. an example of this can be found below.
besides that, the defuser and the experts are free to discuss the game as they wish.
if all the bomb experts give the correct information about the bomb, the defuser will successfully defuse the bomb, and will survive the night.
if any of the bomb experts give incorrect information, the bomb will explode, and the defuser will die.

The rules seem to not have foreseen the situation in which some of the bomb experts just refuse to give out any information, with the intention of refusing to participate in the defusing of a bomb. What if the defuser doesn't provide any solution to defusing the bomb too? I suppose technically they didn't either provide a correct nor an incorrect answer and there is no provision for that situation in the rules either.

I feel like this is a way for players to avoid defusing a bomb altogether. But it also kinda breaks the setup, I guess?

[Greeting]

Refusal is likely treated as gambling with the defuser just guessing at the last second.

Not providing any information is obviously going to be treated the same as giving incorrect information.

@Datisi

[Greeting]

@Datisi, does the defuser have to accept the recommendations of the experts?

yes. the defuser

must

accept the recommendations, and

cannot

submit solutions on their own.

Will the whole of the defusal manual of the bomb be provided to everyone (or at least all the bomb experts) in the case of an unsuccessful defusal and subsequent death of the bomb expert?

[Greeting]

@Datisi, does the defuser have to accept the recommendations of the experts?

yes. the defuser

must

accept the recommendations, and

cannot

submit solutions on their own.

Will the whole of the defusal manual of the bomb be provided to everyone (or at least all the bomb experts) in the case of an unsuccessful defusal and subsequent death of the bomb expert?

no, and a bomb expert does not die from an unsucessful defusal.

Sorry, I meant bomb defuser, not expert.

[Greeting]

letting the bomb explode by default potentially gives scum a nightly kill.

I don't think it does.

GB Inc. infiltrators do not have a factional nightkill every night. they start off with one nightkill. for every two successful bomb defusals performed by a DATS Inc. employee, they gain one nightkill. for every successful bomb defusal performed by a GB Inc. infiltrator, they gain one nightkill.

Not only letting a bomb explode does

not

give the mafia a nightly kill in a technical sense, but also we are never sure if the bomb defuser is town at all.

[Greeting]

I think I found out a potential way to bend the game mechanics to our advantage.

We know that scums select the bomb defuser.
We also know that we select the bomb experts.

Which gives me an idea.

We could all decide to nominate just one person each.

This way, on Day 1, we all could get 3 players to nominate a single player and end up with 6 candidates. (6*3=18; one player is left I suppose)

We also know that there will be 4 experts whom will be selected and we will know that they were selected because they had the most town votes.

Town votes, not all votes.

By doing this, we will know that at least one of the players in each grouping who nominated a player that did not get selected to be a bomb expert is scum simply because their vote was not counted.

Example:

Players in the game {A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S}

Nominations for player A: {A, B, C}
Nominations for player B: {D, E, F}
Nominations for player C: {G, H, I}
Nominations for player D: {J, K, L}
Nominations for player E: {M, N, O}
Nominations for player F: {P, Q, R}

S is left.

Night 1 we find out that the players selected were: {A, B, C, D}. Which means that scums must have been in the {M, N, O} and {P, Q, R} group who voted to nominate E and F.

I can see a potential problem though: what if the scums decide to spread amongst the groups nominating C, D, E and F? How will the tie be resolved then?

[Greeting]

This is incorrect on multiple counts (the voting for expert does not only count town votes, that would be straightforwardly gamebreaking for obvious reasons. The number of experts selected on night 1 is 8, not 4)

A for effort though.

HEAL: Greeting

for functional purposes I will equate this to a townread, there may be more practical considerations on who to nominate for an expert but those can come later.

The rules say that:

each bomb defusal will consist of one bomb defuser

(selected by the mafia)

, and 4-2 bomb experts

(selected by the town)

.

[Greeting]

This is incorrect on multiple counts (the voting for expert does not only count town votes, that would be straightforwardly gamebreaking for obvious reasons. The number of experts selected on night 1 is 8, not 4)

A for effort though.

HEAL: Greeting

for functional purposes I will equate this to a townread, there may be more practical considerations on who to nominate for an expert but those can come later.

The rules say that:

each bomb defusal will consist of one bomb defuser

(selected by the mafia)

, and 4-2 bomb experts

(selected by the town)

.

I would encourage you to read slightly more critically:

the needed number of players who at that moment have the most nominations will be the night's bomb experts.

This doesn't contradict what I quoted.

If we consider the fact that bomb experts are selected

by the town

, then the logical conclusion is that "the most nominations" refers to town nominations.

[Greeting]

It is incredibly dumb to think a mechanic would be designed in which the votes of scum do not count, you will be proven wrong whenever this is clarified. I will not engage in further discussion on this subject.

You're being unnecessarily rude and snooty for no valid reason. Sorry for... reading the rules of the game?

I'm in a good mood today, so I'll just choose to ignore it.

_________________________________________

@Datisi

, sorry to bother you yet again, but the rules state that town chooses the bomb experts. Is this a mistake? If not, then what happens when a scum nominates someone?

And one last question, what happens if there is a tie amongst players nominated to be bomb experts and there is more ties than spots? For instance, 5 players are tied and 4 experts are chosen.

[Greeting]

@Datisi

, sorry to bother you yet again, but the rules state that town chooses the bomb experts. Is this a mistake? If not, then what happens when a scum nominates someone?

And one last question, what happens if there is a tie amongst players nominated to be bomb experts and there is more ties than spots? For instance, 5 players are tied and 4 experts are chosen.

it is not a mistake. the word "town" in that sentence refers to the collective of players, and every single player's nomination vote will be counted, regardless of their alignment.

if there are ties amongst the players nominated, they are broken by seniority; i.e. the players that got to that number of nominations first will be the experts. if, for any reason, that method of tie-breaking is not applicable, the mafia will be able to privately choose the bomb experts.

Okay, thanks. I didn't know that "town" is not referring to an alignment in this game, but to the whole of players. In that case, the previous posts by me should be discarded.

[Greeting]

We know for sure that the bomb defuser cannot submit other instructions than what they got from the bomb experts.

We also know that each bomb expert, at least on Day 1 have 1/4th of the bomb manual, but the bomb defuser needs the whole to successfully defuse the bomb simultaneously.

This effectively puts the entire pressure of getting the bomb right on the experts. And

all of them

have to make the decision to give out correct information to the bomb defuser.

Question is, what if we succeed in putting in 4 townies as bomb experts, and then scums put one of themselves as the bomb defuser? The responsibility for catching this lies not on a group of four people but on every single individual of these four. And, if the scums defuse just one bomb successfully they get a free nightkill (they need two bomb defusals by town to get one). But what if two of them decide to give out the wrong instructions and kill a townie? I don't think this strategy has been well thought through.

I think this should be a more informed decision than just voting whomever one townreads, especially since you can vote multiple people here, so voting someone else doesn't change the vote - and with a large game you're more likely to forget whom you voted altogether. Plus, 14 days is like loads of time. I feel like we could spend like 2 days just on making sure that everyone understands the setup 100% and then get to action.

Also, apparently I missed the fact that there are two bombs Night 1. Gosh.

I'll read up on the rules some more tomorrow and maybe come up with some ideas. Now, off to sleep.

[Greeting]

I wish I was scum this game just to show you everyone is pocketable. I don't know who you are, but that's a very proud statement.

I wish I was scum this game just to show that I'm perfectly capable of commenting on the setup as scum for the show too, not just because I want to understand it and use this knowledge to town's benefit. Honestly, I could also make the same post if I were scum, I would just leave out the part about potential wagon ties (which was a major unknown even if I was correct about only town votes counting) and hope that no one delves too much into that. They probably wouldn't even notice. This game has already 28 pages.

Even if I were right, I don't think most players would listen to my strategy anyways, because that's just how players in mafia games work. Still, I don't think this absolves me from legitimately trying to give town an advantage by attempting to interpret the game rules correctly.

Nonetheless, I'd much rather be the bomb expert this game than a potential bomb defuser, because I have a strong feeling that this is basically a death sentence in this setup. I mean, what if a town bomb defuser fails to understand the instructions correctly and gives out the wrong answer even if they did not intend to do so? So I'm kinda not complaining about being townread so easily for nothing.

[Greeting]

I mean, what if a town bomb defuser fails to understand the instructions correctly and gives out the wrong answer even if they did not intend to do so?

Worth asking the mod, but I don't think this is possible given the defuser must accept the expert opinions.

Ugh, I confused the bomb defuser with bomb expert again. I meant the bomb expert. Sorry.

I was saying that this player error is also possible if someone misreads the instructions or just isn't clever enough to understand them. Can be tough as there is only one correct solution.

[Greeting]

hello friends!! ive never been a replacement before this is fun

Hi!

[Greeting]

I didn't finish my mech talk, so I'm gonna do it now. I know that everyone else has moved on from this, but I need to do this myself first to move on.

The normal element in this game is voting out scum each Day Phase. This is our basic power.

The unusual element in this game is the fact that the mafia do not get an automatic nightkill. That's where the bomb mechanic comes into the picture.

DATS Inc. employees win when all GB Inc. infiltrators are dead and at least one DATS Inc. employee is alive, OR when DATS Inc. employees act as successful bomb defusers 8 times.

GB Inc. infiltrators win when all DATS Inc. employees are dead and at least one GB Inc. infiltrator is alive, OR when GB Inc. infiltrators act as successful bomb defusers 4 times.

I know that this has been said before, but the town alternative wincon is extremely hard to achieve. The scum alternative wincon, on the other hand, is something that totally can happen, without us even knowing.

Then again, I suppose that the scums find the bomb defusing as risky as we do, if not riskier. They only have four teammates, so losing one is much more painful than losing one townie in terms of numbers (as is in usual mafia I suppose). Which is why I'm going to make the guess that the scums will be rather unlikely to select one of them to be the bomb defuser. In most mafia games I've played on this site it was usually town hunting down town and the scums often just sat behind and did nothing/very little. If I were scum, I think this is the perspective that would appeal to me more than risking losing my teammates to a very swingy game mechanic. This is probably why the rewards for scum defusing a bomb are higher than compared to when town defuses one.

If we assume that scums will be unlikely to select one of themselves to be the bomb defuser, then we must assume that it is likely that each bomb defuser is town. And so, universally townread players are in danger of being put in as bomb defusers and basically being put as lambs to the slaughter. In order to minimise the likelihood, we must select townies to be bomb experts. We need to fill 8 spots here with obvious townies to defuse both bombs.

I know I invented absolutely nothing with this post, but yes, I am on board with nominating the towniest players to be bomb experts. This does sound like the most optimal play right now.

[Greeting]

I am on board with nominating the towniest players to be bomb experts

I thought that's what we've all been doing this entire time

I haven't nominated anyone yet. I'm not sheeping everyone else, because I'm cooler than that. Just like I townread

Greeting

before everyone else did.

[Greeting]

I mean, I guess I kinda am sheeping everyone else, but only because I thought it over myself and agreed with it.

Eh, never mind.

[Greeting]

This, I think is town:

HEAL: Morning Tweet

HEAL: StrangeMatter

HEAL: Frogsterking

There is definitely scum in:

Lukewarm

,

Cephrir

and

VP Baltar

.

HURT: Cephrir

VOTE: Cephrir

Plus, I don't trust

Andante

, she has a playstyle which I can never read well.

HURT: Andante

[Greeting]

excuse me? you hate my playstyle so what point are you trying to make? You calling me scum?

This is such a misrepresentation of what I said and meant.

I am aiming to support the towniest people I can find in this game to be bomb experts. I don't know how to read you well, so I'd rather you weren't a bomb expert. I also don't get why people townread you at all.

That's all, folks!

[Greeting]

haven't read up yet, about to do so now, but looked at the latest VC and it seems like a lot of my initial desired experts are fairly consensus so

HEAL: Andante
HEAL: Frogsterking
HEAL: Greeting
HEAL: Menalque

will retract if I notice any issues during the catch up

Why would you care at all if me/

Andante

/

Frogsterking

or whomever else was a consensus townread? Why does it matter so much?

[Greeting]

excuse me? you hate my playstyle so what point are you trying to make? You calling me scum?

This is such a misrepresentation of what I said and meant.

I am aiming to support the towniest people I can find in this game to be bomb experts. I don't know how to read you well, so I'd rather you weren't a bomb expert. I also don't get why people townread you at all.

That's all, folks!

how is me asking you a question a misrepresentation??
I have the most posts here I think, if you don't tr me, then you sr me, so why? what's the reason?

I don't hate your playstyle, I never said I did, plus I didn't call you scum.

From my point of view, this game involves both townhunting and scumhunting at the same time. I feel like it's mechanically much better to put in a townread as a bomb expert than a nullread.

[Greeting]

I'm just powerskimming to get caught up first but so far I'm vibing with most of the seemingly consensus reads so far this game

Luke scumreads make sense to me and I'm down to sheep the case laid out by catboi and others

like that Menalque has the same attitude on page 25

as of page 25 I'm down to vote any of Dwlee/Luke/Baltar

StrangeMatter Frog vote is odd, I have a hard time understanding how Frog can be anyone's choice of "this is the best use of my vote and the slot most likely to flip scum"

Consensus reads mentioned again.

[Greeting]

Ugh catboi is sassy this game.
why are you so grumpy?

Hello,

Mala

!

I don't feel like

catboi

is sassy. Sassiness is being slightly mean like poking fun into something.

Catboi

was being obviously rude, not just to me but to

Pooky

and

VP Baltar

. Unfortunately, I feel like this could potentially be alignment indicative. I've played with

catboi

a few times before and he was never like this. Which is why I will not be supporting him to be a bomb expert today.

There's also a second reason: he seems to be very knowledgeable about this setup, which could either mean that he's individually very experienced in mafia games and games in general (likely), but this knowledge could have also been a result of him having a private space to analyse the setup with someone equally experienced (also likely).

And we know that all PTs are open for business. I intepret this as also including the scum PT.

all private topics will be open at all times.

[Greeting]

Bookmarking post 1007 for later.

[Greeting]

Unfortunately, I feel like this could potentially be alignment indicative. I've played with catboi a few times before and he was never like this.

ive read some games with him in it and do not think this is alignment indicative lol, if anything i think he is that way as town more often

I'm aware that all games I've played with

catboi

before were Newbies and probably more experienced players act differently in Newbie setups than in other games. I also kinda tend to prioritise meta from my personal experiences with other players rather than get it from reading random games a player has been in. If I'm not personally involved in a game, I tend to not be very interested in analysing it. I guess it's my flaw when it comes to getting meta.

Still, there is enough doubt for me here to leave

catboi

in null territory. I think this slot will sort itself out eventually though.

[Greeting]

I know it sounds crazy! But I feel like avis can have an unconscious bias influence on how snippy people think you're being. People legit call me scummy all the time in games as town, and I think part of it is my avatar.

It absolutely does. And it doesn't just apply to one's behavior, people tend to associate the avatar with the person typing behind the screen. I had to put in pronouns as everyone assumed that I'm female just because I have a bad picture of Godney Spears as my avi.

I also had a k-pop loving phase in like 2012 (don't give me too much slack for it, I was 15-16ish) and had one of my idols as my avatar on another forum back then. Everyone just assumed I was Asian.

All that being said, catboi did seem slightly aggressive in a few interactions, where it seemed a bit much. Could also just be having RL annoyances I guess, so overall, not sure I agree with him not being an expert. He does have a good grasp of the setup, and I think that's something we want to leverage if he's town.

Hence why I think it's best just to leave him in the null and look for townies somewhere else.

[Greeting]

There's also a second reason: he seems to be very knowledgeable about this setup, which could either mean that he's individually very experienced in mafia games and games in general (likely), but this knowledge could have also been a result of him having a private space to analyse the setup with someone equally experienced (also likely).

You do realize the setup mechanics were made public in signups, right?

Yeah, and my thought was "oh, this looks cool, let's try it out and see what goes" and not "let's break it down to pieces to figure out the optimal play for each alignment before the game starts". I also think that the majority of players think the same way I do. You might be one who went for the latter though.

[Greeting]

If we put in the 8 towniest players today we will have slim pickings day 2 and 3

That's why I'm proposing we not fully do that

Revisiting this post + the posts

Cephrir

made about this earlier.

during the first 4 days, once someone has acted as a bomb expert, they are unable to be a bomb expert the next two nights, meaning they cannot be nominated. from day 5 and onwards, once someone has acted as a bomb expert, they cannot be a bomb expert the next night. this restriction is lifted once there are 5 or fewer players alive.

While thinking about game strategy I encountered the same issue, like: what happens Night 2? And

Cephrir

was the only one who raised the issue. Or maybe someone else did as well and I didn't notice it before.

+town point for him

UNVOTE: Cephrir

[Greeting]

Also, I think the hurt tags do nothing if you haven't nominated that person before. Like, this doesn't count as a -1 vote.

[Greeting]

I wanted to wait until

GuiltyLion

comes back and question him, but he didn't show up.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

The reason for this is a very specific type of scumread, which is relying on consensus reads. Consensus reads, in my opinion, useless and counterproductive for town right now, but very useful for scum. The pool of townies should be a sum of individual townreads. Not "x is town because y is town and townreads x". Forming associations like this Day 1 is a bad strategy as they are unsupported by any hard data as to whom is voting out whom and whom is nominating for bomb expert (which is equated to being a townread in this game). We'll get the hard data once Day 1 is over. Right now this is just constantly shifting and it's not uncommon for mafia to be distancing themselves from one another.

[Greeting]

There is definitely scum in:

Lukewarm

,

Cephrir

and

VP Baltar

.

I don't think

Cephrir

is scum and thinks one step ahead like that. I feel like this was a legitimate suggestion. But I think it's going to materialise itself anyway: by kind of all of town sending their strongest consensus reads (not the kind of consensus reads I was talking about in 1273) and the softer townreads, which are more null by definition to solve the second bomb.

Would this mean that there is scum in:

Lukewarm

and

VP Baltar

?

Eh, not really. I was alluding to preserving townreads in 225, though tbf, it was still a half baked idea there and more me thinking about how hard it will be to get 8 townreads today that people agree on.

I mean, even if we consider the fact that 225 was before

Cephrir

pointed out what I was talking about earlier, I agree with

Cephrir

that the way

VP Baltar

dropped 1112 was meant to question that townread I got. And possibly pocket me to townread him in

Cephrir

's place.

what is the point of this post. you want to torpedo this townread but your reason is flimsy at best per your own admission

[Greeting]

I have been slightly townreading

Pooky

and so I'd rather be on the bomb solving team with him than with

catboi

who is more of a nullread.

HEAL: PookyTheMagicalBear

[Greeting]

Not "x is town because y is town and townreads x". Forming associations like this Day 1 is a bad strategy as they are unsupported by any hard data as to whom is voting out whom and whom is nominating for bomb expert (which is equated to being a townread in this game). We'll get the hard data once Day 1 is over. Right now this is just constantly shifting and it's not uncommon for mafia to be distancing themselves from one another.

This is not how I formed my townreads, you are making an assumption or misunderstanding what I said

I expressed my townreads (without any reasoning) in 258, it was after I was away from the thread and came back in 833 that I healed them, but me healing them in 833 because they were consensus does not mean that I townread them because they are consensus

Yeah, I think I misunderstood.

UNVOTE: GuiltyLion

[Greeting]

I think I need to re-read the whole thread to find candidates to vote out because I'm kinda lost.

[Greeting]

I am doing what I said I would in 1660, which is why you may see a streak of ancient posts quoted.

Hey guys, I thought I was clever, but it looks like several other people realized defusing bombs is good for maf.

I came up with a name for the strat:

MAD

M

urder

A

ll

D

efusers

I'm also curious if this is a part of a twist associated with the story.

We don't know that DATS inc. is even a bomb defusing company at all. All we know is that DATS inc. has been infiltrated. It's possible defusing bombs isn't DATS inc. primary purpose, and the story revolves around a company whose primary purpose has been lost.

For example, maybe DATS inc. actually stands for:

Destroy All Traitors and Scum incorporated
or
Destroy All Traitorous Scum incorporated

PEDit: StrangeMatters is already out of their scum range by the way, slight townread on StrangeMatters from me.

I thought it's glaringly obvious that DATS inc. and GB inc. is a reference to the mod himself and GeorgeBailey, who is a backup mod.

Is there some kind of deeper story behind this? I don't know. I guess we will find out later in the game.

[Greeting]

The Bulge

was very clearly in a gamesolving mindset.

Enchant

's slot is probably town.

[Greeting]

And yeah, I can see why people townread

Andante

now. I'm okay with being with her and

Frogsterking

on the bomb solving team. I am unsure about

catboi

though ugh.

HEAL: Andante

Also, I may have been overly enthusiastic about

Morning Tweet

's slot. Her idea in 128 was really questionable. I focused more on the tone and less on the content here.

HURT: Mistyx

[Greeting]

Ok I give up. I read 20 pages. This is taking too long, I can't keep my focus and will have to stick to what's happening right now. Sorry.

[Greeting]

Menalque

, why do you want to be a bomb expert Night 1?

[Greeting]

seems like it would be fun

Why do you want to be bomb expert now and not Day 2 for instance? The top 8 cannot be nominated bomb expert then.

[Greeting]

seems like it would be fun

Why do you want to be bomb expert now and not Day 2 for instance? The top 8 cannot be nominated bomb expert then.

I could die by then, Greeting

Okay.

HEAL: Menalque

[Greeting]

The only game I played with

fireisredsir

he literally tunnelled me for the entirety of my presence in the game. He was absolutely adamant that I was scum (I was town).

[Greeting]

I hate doing these quote walls because I feel like people don't engage with them, but I am less than thrilled with the directions people have been spinning off in and am not content to play passively.

fire's scum, just zip it up and send them already before everyone decides they're sick of this game

Fine.

VOTE: fireisredsir

[Greeting]

I am doing this because if

catboi

is right then he's far more likely to be trusted as bomb expert in the PT. There is no reason to bus a teammate Day 1, especially if there is just 4 of them in this game setup. If

fireisredsir

flips town then eh, whatever.

[Greeting]

can someone unvote

sure thing!

VOTE: Fire

[Greeting]

Are heal votes past hammer even counted?

[Greeting]

FROGSTER IS MAFIA. IGNORE ANYTHING HE SAYS HERE. He Refused to even attempt to solve the bomb last night and was messing around. catboi did claim the IC thing last night, and frogster instead refused to solve, and basically claimed maf in that hood

Period.

VOTE: Frogsterking

[Greeting]

catboi

outed his role in our PT and

Frogsterking

outright refused to solve and did everything in his power to sabotage the process, disregarding any relevant points raised and attempting to derail the PT in any possible way he could.

catboi

's role claim was an

extremely

improbable one to make for scum, because it can be verified almost immediately. If we bomb solved, he would have been confirmed. If the bomb exploded, his role would be revealed in the flip. It makes zero sense as town to not believe it.

Frogsterking

refused to even provide any answer to the puzzle.

In these circumstances this is basically outing himself as scum.

[Greeting]

catboi

outed his role in our PT and

Frogsterking

outright refused to solve and did everything in his power to sabotage the process, disregarding any relevant points raised and attempting to derail the PT in any possible way he could.

catboi

's role claim was an

extremely

improbable one to make for scum, because it can be verified almost immediately. If we bomb solved, he would have been confirmed. If the bomb exploded, his role would be revealed in the flip. It makes zero sense as town to not believe it.

Frogsterking

refused to even provide any answer to the puzzle.

In these circumstances this is basically outing himself as scum.

but if he were scum, why wouldn't he just pretend to give the correct solution to the bomb and sabotage silently?

why isn't he just a VI

I was wondering that too, and that is why initially I was careful about scumreading him.

But the evidence is pretty damning. Not only are the actions

blatantly

anti-town, but his attitude in the PT was to confuse everyone and derail any possible discussion we had going over the game. And there was quite a lot of it. Nothing he ever said made sense nor was it related to what we were talking about.

I am not moving my vote anywhere else today.

Frogsterking

needs to go.

[Greeting]

I strongly encourage you to ignore whatever

Frog

is saying and follow me,

Andante

,

Andresvmb

and

catboi

onto this.

[Greeting]

I strongly encourage you to ignore whatever

Frog

is saying and follow me,

Andante

,

Andresvmb

and

catboi

onto this.

did catboi call frog scum too?

Yes, he was literally grilling me for disbelieving at first.

Andante

can confirm this.

[Greeting]

I strongly encourage you to ignore whatever

Frog

is saying and follow me,

Andante

,

Andresvmb

and

catboi

onto this.

did catboi call frog scum too?

Yes, he was literally grilling me for disbelieving at first.

Andante

can confirm this.

thx. Why was he townreading andres?

Paraphrasing.

Beginning of thread: townlean because of interactions with player

Menalque

.
Later: expressed his belief that

Andresvmb

was inserted into our group as a result of mafia machinations, plus it was his belief that

Andresvmb

gets angry because cares much to not get wrongly eliminated by town, which in his eyes makes him town.
Late thread:

Andresvmb

is his second biggest townlean,

Andante

being on top.

This is what I found while looking through the thread.

When the mixup happened it became extremely obvious to the four of us (excluding

Frogsterking

who probably co-arranged this) that

Andresvmb

probably did not have anything to do with the mixup and that it was done by someone else on purpose to confuse us.

Andresvmb

was fully cooperative in the thread and willing to work and discuss with us, plus we had little doubt that the things he said came from a town mindset.

[Greeting]

I think if you're town, frogs, it's more likely that your hood was all town

I'm not going to elaborate on this further at this time

Like, in the event frogs flips town... EVERYTHING about his play in the hood was anti town, like Greeting had the exact same doubts I did... "why would scum just not solve?" but by frogster doing what he did.. catboi and I were basing all of our reads around frogster!scum world cause, it just doesn't make sense for town to be like frogster was... like, why not go "oh yeah I'm town, now I'll help solve" no.. frogster did 0 solving and was constantly like "lol no rush! still have 2 days to solve the bomb" "lol no rush still have hours!!"

it's just like, we HAVE to lim frogster... there is no way anyone lives after that performance

100% agreed.

Frogsterking

does not get to stay in the game after that PT. It is absolutely anti-town to not eliminate him.

[Greeting]

Did you know…

…that any single word

Andresvmb

said in the PT…

…was 10 times townier than the whole of

Frogsterking

’s entire performance in the thread?

[Greeting]

(actually don't, I am obviously ineligible)

[Greeting]

A circus is a company of performers who put on diverse entertainment shows that may include clowns, acrobats, trained animals, trapeze acts, musicians, dancers, hoopers, tightrope walkers, jugglers, magicians, ventriloquists, and unicyclists as well as other object manipulation and stunt-oriented artists. The term circus also describes the performance which has followed various formats through its 250-year modern history. Although not the inventor of the medium, Philip Astley is credited as the father of the modern circus. In 1768, Astley, a skilled equestrian, began performing exhibitions of trick horse riding in an open field called Ha'Penny Hatch on the south side of the Thames River.[1] In 1770, he hired acrobats, tightrope walkers, jugglers and a clown to fill in the pauses between the equestrian demonstrations and thus chanced on the format which was later named a "circus". Performances developed significantly over the next fifty years, with large-scale theatrical battle reenactments becoming a significant feature. The traditional format, in which a ringmaster introduces a variety of choreographed acts set to music, developed in the latter part of the 19th century and remained the dominant format until the 1970s.

This is obviously fake news.

Circus is the name of the album and also second single of this album released in 2008 by Britney Spears.

This is, without any doubt, proof that Britney Spears invented circus. You may not like it, but it's a

fact.

Buy on iTunes now + stream on Spotify and YouTube.

[Greeting]

Ok but like jokes aside

Frogsterking

needs to

go

today and me and

Andante

are not just saying this on our own behalf but also

catboi

's and

Andresvmb

's who hasn't showed yet. He will confirm this when he does show up anyway.

[Greeting]

Andante

, you should ignore him. Do not engage with him and do not legitimise whatever bs he's trying to produce now.

A player with a 2011 joindate does not allow an uncounterclaimed power role, which is easily verifiable to die and continuously derail the PT while being town. There is no tinfoil, just a pretty straightforward scumplay here.

Frogsterking

must go today and this is something that I will not let go. This is the elimination for today. Period.

ELIMINATE FROGSTERKING, IGNORE WHAT HE SAYS AND THAT'S IT.

Thank you for your attention.

[Greeting]

I guess the frog scum play here was to get catboi, a good player, into a vulnerable position and just kamikaze him? It's kind of silly, especially since frog was pretty widely town read yesterday. So, GL is probably right. maybe they thought andres wasn't going to cooperate with bomb solving or something, and then when everyone started to solve right away, frog just tried to do the dirty work. Doesn't explain why he wouldn't just give wrong directions though and not draw so much heat immediately.

If we assume that everyone is playing towards their wincon, there is no town explanation for

Frogsterking

’s actions. None at all. Zero.

If this was a new player, I could make an assumption that the necessity of saving

catboi

isn’t clear to them and that they could have been misled. But this player has been around for more than 10 years. Incompetence and misunderstanding are out of the question.

[Greeting]

HEAL: VP Baltar

HEAL: Enchant

[Greeting]

Greeting, why the townread on Enchant and also did catboi leave a full readslist for us?

I townread

Enchant

's predecessor, plus

Enchant

is acting absolutely no different to when he did in the games I've played with him earlier. He rolled town in all of them.

Yes,

Andante

posted it before, and I confirm that it's true.

[Greeting]

I think I know what this whole deal was about.

Frogsterking

slipped through into our group without any machinations, but wanted to keep the townreads he gained Day 1. But the scums also wanted to get rid of

catboi

and blame it on a townie.

Andresvmb

got inserted into our group as a result of scum action. I have no doubts about it, because putting him of all players into the group of the most widely townread players while kicking

catboi

into the bomb defuser seat was definitely not meant to benefit town. It became apparent to me,

catboi

and

Andante

instantly that it seems extremely improbable that

Andresvmb

is scum and gets pushed in as bomb defuser like that.

The original plan was probably to have the group go as normal, with

Frogsterking

providing a wrong solution, and when the bomb exploded blame it on

Andresvmb

. But when

Frogsterking

realised we're not buying this, he chose to improvise. And the improvisation was to confuse everyone, which basically resulted in him outing himself as scum.

[Greeting]

I am okay with the hammer happening whenever. There's not much more to discuss here for me Day 2.

Looking at the bomb expert nominations, I'm not 100% sure if

Bell

and

GuiltyLion

are town, but I know for sure that I do not want

Dwlee99

in a bomb expert group in this game.

[Greeting]

I’ll wait for Titus to attempt a catch up. But after that, oh that sweet hammer is coming.

My impression is that

Titus

has done nothing productive in this game and has been in catch-up mode all the time, but it's your decision of course.

[Greeting]

I am extremely annoyed, though this annoyance is slightly smaller due to there not being a nightkill today.

Firstly,

Frogsterking

, well done. You really made absolutely no good use for your role.

Secondly,

catboi

, well done. The amount of pressure I got from you in the PT only for this to flip town.

Honestly, both of you.

[Greeting]

I wonder why the scums want

VP Baltar

out so much. This has to mean he's town, because if he were scum, they'd have two nightkills by now and they haven't used any of them. Anyway, thanks for a half-confirmed townie.

[Greeting]

No. They would actually have three nightkills by now. As they got one by default.

[Greeting]

No. They would actually have three nightkills by now. As they got one by default.

Math 0/10

[Greeting]

I'm afraid that I will have to deal with this game tomorrow because I am tired.

[Greeting]

Time to sum up the major events so we know where we're at.

Day 1 - we voted

fireisredsir

out, he was town.
Night 1 - there was no apparent nightkill, one bomb explosion and one bomb defusal.
Day 2 - we voted

Frogsterking

out, he was town.
Night 2 - there was no apparent nightkill, the was one bomb defusal.

GB Inc. infiltrators do not have a factional nightkill every night. they start off with one nightkill. for every two successful bomb defusals performed by a DATS Inc. employee, they gain one nightkill. for every successful bomb defusal performed by a GB Inc. infiltrator, they gain one nightkill.

So they have one nightkill on start.

catboi

's bomb exploded and he was town.

VP Baltar

defused both bombs.

If

VP Baltar

is town, the mafia have two nightkills, including the one they got on start. They had only one nightkill on Night 2, however.
If

VP Baltar

is scum, the mafia have three nightkills, including the one they got on start. They had two nightkills on Night 2, however.

Yet the mafia seem not to be keen on using their nightkills in this game at all. Which obviously benefits town.

This, in my opinion, shows that it's very likely for

VP Baltar

to be town.

HEAL: VP Baltar

[Greeting]

@

Datisi

How many nightkills can the mafia perform per night?

[Greeting]

@

Datisi

How many nightkills can the mafia perform per night?

0 or 1.

This changes things.

They might be going for the four defusals win.

HURT: VP Baltar

[Greeting]

The mafia cannot stock up on nightkills. They've just probably opted for the four bomb defusals wincon.

I am doing a U-turn on this.

VP Baltar

needs to go.

VOTE: VP Baltar

[Greeting]

Malakittens

sounds like a really easy slot to flip because she's done basically nothing in this game. And there is little resistance to this wagon too.

I am staying with my

VP Baltar

vote for reasons said earlier. Letting him explode relies on both the mafia selecting him for bomb defuser again (which we don't know if it's going to happen at all) and the judgement of three individuals, and I don't think I am townreading any of the potential candidates whatsoever. So I guess I'd rather get him out by voting him out and I don't really care who gets selected for bomb expert today.

[Greeting]

it literally makes 0 sense to execute VPB.

if we execute VPB!Town, we basically lost a lim for nothing.

if we are playing in the VPB!scum world, then scum are going for some weird af wifom game where they are trying to win via VPB defusals.

in which case they will put up VPB to defuse the bomb.

in which case we can just blow him up and we keep our lim and scum waste a night.

I didn't say that they are winning via

VP Baltar

defusals. I did say that they might be trying to win via scum bomb defusals, and continuously sending

VP Baltar

to solve bombs is part of that win.

Will the scums put up

VP Baltar

for bomb defusal again if he's scum and after me (and others have pointed it out)? I doubt it. Which is why, in my opinion, it is safer to eliminate him via vote today rather than hope that he will be chosen for the third time and then possibly explode him.

Especially, since that will be the decision of the bomb experts who might either:
a) be scum themselves,
b) have a different opinion and act on that opinion rather than on mine, yours or anyone else's wishes,
c) be swayed by scum into saving

VP

from exploding again.

[Greeting]

Greeting are you ever going to address or have you already addressed the “why not just investigate baltar” question?

Like, that post was specifically aimed at you.

Was there a Cop claim in the game?

[Greeting]

a) we can't have 3 scum bomb experts and a scum defuser - if we are in that world we deserve to lose
b) i don't give a shit what anyone's opinion is, if you let someone defuse a bomb when we could possibly lose (as in 3 unresolved slots have defusals) thats borderline game throwing and you shouldnt do it.
c) see point B

also if scum dont put up VPB that's fine too because if they put up someone scummier than VPB we just execute and narrow POE and if they put up someone townier than VPB that person is probly just town.

We can, however, have 2 scum bomb experts and 1 town bomb expert who is swayed by those two to save

VP Baltar

once again. Just because someone is town doesn't mean they're always going to act in an optimal way to win the game and that they can be 100% trusted (see:

Frogsterking

in our bomb expert PT and the entirety of Day 2). WIFOM is often useful, but it should always be taken with a grain of salt.

Besides,

Malakittens

is like the too obvious choice. They have done nothing in the game and barely even posted, scumreading someone for inactivity, lurking and lack of reads is the classic. But why did she accumulate 7 votes so fast? Why not, for instance,

Mistyx

or

Titus

whom I also feel are doing nothing?

I'm starting to feel like I'm being shunned about

VP Baltar

and the attention is being redirected to the

Mala

wagon instead on purpose. Which makes me question if that wagon is town-led at all.

[Greeting]

Besides, Malakittens is like the too obvious choice. They have done nothing in the game

do you really think all 4 scum are deepwolves?

I'm not sure what you mean by deepwolf.

[Greeting]

Thanks, I was looking through the wiki and couldn't find the term deepwolfing nor wolfing.

So the argument is that

Malakittens

is bad at deepwolfing and that it's just blatant scum? That may be, but if so, is her team bussing her right now? I refuse to believe there is no scum amongst those seven that are voting her right now.

[Greeting]

Well, six or maybe five.

Andante

is town and I think

Pooky

is town too.

Malakittens [7]: Dwlee99, Cephrir, VP Baltar, Cat Scratch Fever, GuiltyLion

[Greeting]

dwlee I need to interact more with you tbh, you're pretty easy to read

What???

[Greeting]

dwlee I need to interact more with you tbh, you're pretty easy to read

What???

What's the question?

I'm just utterly confused how you can find them of all players easy to read.

[Greeting]

That’s why I said, I don’t really care who gets picked for bomb defusal today, it’s almost bound to have scum anyway.

[Greeting]

I don't really have the energy to fully catch up on what's going on. But I see that some people are suspecting

Andresvmb

and I'm not sure why it isn't obvious to everyone that this slot is town. Even when

Frogsterking

flipped town, this doesn't really mean that

Andresvmb

isn't.

Let's rewind to Day 1.

Andresvmb

is being townread by literally no one. Nobody wanted him in as bomb expert.

It is abundantly clear that inserting him as bomb expert is a scum action and there's no need for me to expand on it further.

Now I urge someone to explain to me what is the possible logic behind scum inserting scum member

Andresvmb

in as a bomb expert. Obviously, the scums did not know what our reaction to

Andresvmb

being put in into our PT would be. But what is the most likely thought that came down? Maybe they were hoping that someone would bomb the solve (pun intended) and

Andresvmb

would go down for it? In my opinion, this was an action that was clearly meant to make our group doubt that slot and create confusion.

Before

Frogsterking

went full-on anti-town,

Andresvmb

posted his part of the solve without hesitation. He later even said (paraphrasing from the PT) that there is literally no excuse for someone putting in a wrong answer because they can always check in with the mod. He was fully cooperative and acted in a pro-town way.

If we take this into consideration, is trying to push

Andresvmb

an act by a group of confused townies or a purposeful action by scum, who do not know what went down in our PT (I am also townreading

Andante

in case someone didn't read any of my posts) and are attempting to make this incorrect push?

Andresvmb

is very likely town and I am not joining that wagon.

[Greeting]

Thanks for the game Datisi and everyone else. I think you did a rather good job moderating it and some holes in the rules were pretty much inevitable. I think that it would take like a team of 3-5 experienced mafia hosts to make it absolutely perfect. The concept of the game was fun, but what frustrated me was that there wasn't an optimal way to play as town as almost every route I considered going as a town-aligned player had its upsides and downsides. This is just my personal feeling though. I did not like the mafia role that swapped the bomb defusers all the time as it made the game a bit too unpredictable. But otherwise, I would rate my experience as a player in the game as good, and I also think my instincts were more often correct than not.

What happened in the Dead Thread was unfortunate, but I guess that Theme games on this site just tend to negatively impact my behavior in general.