KTaNE [game over!]

[fireisredsir]

hello friends!! ive never been a replacement before this is fun

[fireisredsir]

ive been reading along with the thread and bad news is that i was scumreading lukewarm lmaoo

but good news is that i was wrong!!

i have some notes tho, let me add post tags to those and ill post some thoughts, one sec

[fireisredsir]

I was saying that this player error is also possible if someone misreads the instructions or just isn't clever enough to understand them. Can be tough as there is only one correct solution.

ive played the actual game before and this happens OFTEN so i assume it is intended behavior for that to be a possibility here too

[fireisredsir]

- first few pages had so much mech discussion zzzzz im gonna ignore that until later maybe
- greeting prob town for getting excited about a way to break the game that is obv wrong
- vp sounds normalish, idk bout the votes on him
- menalque feels like 164 was posted out of feeling obligated to do so. but town can feel that too. it still gives me the hmmmms
- 256 could be scummy from lion. but i kinda feel good vibes from prae's vp vote right after, for some reason
- andante is scummy as of 288
- dwlee is towny for noticing as of 293
- i read pooky's posts alternating between the voice of NBA analyst and anime girl and it's really throwing me off. need to find a new default pooky voice
- it's weird that catboi TRs andante strongly in 321 but idk if he's town with better reads than me or scum with tmi. either way andante might actually be town
- some people are really efforting it up and i bet they're not all town
- lukewarm being confused by frog in 397 kinda feels fake, but who isn't confused by frog sometimes
- ayyy catboi's secret read is lukewarm, i like this development. locktown
- 487 gutread tweet is scummy
- as of 546ish, strangematter feels... floaty? like she's not really engaged w/ the game just kinda existing and not poking out too much. potentially sus
- as of 561 frog is kinda making me want to yeet him so I don't really blame dwlee that much. but i think frog is more likely town
- 595 hmm bad vibes here from menalque
- gonna be honest i have never once looked through andante's big list to see what she updated whenever she ebwops it bc it is not clear at all what changed. sorry andy
- ok one mech thing i don't think anyone has talked about is that don't we get very fuzzy alignment info from successful defuses based on how many nightkills the maf use? but they might not use them right away so it's extra fuzzy. maybe nobody talked about this bc they are hoping maf isn't thinking about this. but they def are so w/e

[fireisredsir]

obv the lukewarm note no longer applies but i left it in bc otherwise my catboi note doesn't make any sense

[fireisredsir]

hi!!

[fireisredsir]

ok i admit i planned to say that either way before i even saw the alignment pm

but i did NOT plan to say that ^^^ either way. so. one point for me being town, imo

[fireisredsir]

HURT: StrangeMatter
HURT: Titus
HURT: Morning Tweet

not feeling these noms

[fireisredsir]

- lukewarm being confused by frog in 397 kinda feels fake, but who isn't confused by frog sometimes

Was loving Fire's analysis and then I read this.

Why did you comment on this?

see 703. it's for context for my catboi note right after. my notes were made beforehand so they're not AI anyway

[fireisredsir]

- 595 hmm bad vibes here from menalque

This is the only other spot where I was like 'huh?' on your analysis.

Why does that post give you bad vibes?

the way that it felt like it was gauging what the read was based on before publicly commenting to whether they would jump in on it or not seemed more scummy than solvy to me

[fireisredsir]

my notes were made beforehand so they're not AI anyway

When did you start taking notes on the game?

yesterday. i was hoping to replace in if a slot became available so i was playing along

[fireisredsir]

ok read some strangematter games and i get similar vibes of kinda hanging back and floating around as both alignments. so im a little less interested in pushing there for now

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[fireisredsir]

I gave 351 some major side eye

351 felt very not serious to me

[fireisredsir]

- dwlee is towny for noticing as of 293

They said it was a joke. Does that change your read on them?

Sorry dwlee!

huh? where did they say that? i said 351 looked jokey but i don't think the scumread overall was a joke and i don't see anything they said that would imply that

[fireisredsir]

first part of 552

I misremembered - It wasn't a joke but it also wasn't a real read yet

oh. yea i kinda didn't believe them when they said that and assumed they did have some sort of gutread at least. like i think 288 is legit scummy and i doubt dwlee voted based on nothing, there must have been some reason to choose andante. but you're right that switching to the gamestate read as the main reason for scumreading is.... interesting, at least. i would lower my townread of them if they're serious about that

[fireisredsir]

Errr possibly a dumb question but how do we select who goes into what group?

see post 255. so if following ceph's plan we'd push the collective top townreads into the top 4 slots probs, and then the 4 after that can be a mix

[fireisredsir]

People "We're voting GL for no reason"
GL just isn't here...

real exciting wagon people!! at least go pick someone who is here and get that reaction.. voting GL accomplishes nothing... yall went back to mech talk while I was gone... like ughhh I really don't understand yall. making 0 sense

it isn't no reason. i think 256 is scummy. mostly a gut thing but it gave me vibes of him feeling like he needed to come up with a read that was supported by something at that time. doesn't feel organic. and since then he's disappeared a bit which prob isn't AI but also doesn't make me think he's any more towny

[fireisredsir]

Curious fire, what are your thoughts on me

you seem pretty unengaged so far, so i have little to no read on you. don't think you've really done anything AI

[fireisredsir]

@fire, we’ve played before right? Your catch up style is really familiar

no, ive never replaced in before so ive never really had to catch up before either

[fireisredsir]

Can you please explain why you thought 164 felt like I was obligated to make it?

And at the same time what gave you bad vibes re: 595?

idk! it's not strong, i just kinda got "oh I'm supposed to post more of my thoughts now" vibes. like i didn't really feel like they were thoughts that most town would naturally feel inclined to share at that time, yk? not that they felt fake on their own, but i sensed some pressure of some outside force that made you want to post them. and that pressure could come from a red pm. but that can sometimes be just more of a personality thing too

i talked about 595 in 716

[fireisredsir]

it gave me vibes of him feeling like he needed to come up with a read that was supported by something at that time

I do try to give reasons for my votes yeah

do you disagree with the actual point I was making about Baltar? the only thing I saw you say about him was he seems "normalish"

yea, that doesn't seem out of character for him to me so i don't really see it as a reason to scumread

i like your catchup posts better tho and agree on morning tweet

VOTE: Morning Tweet

[fireisredsir]

i think talking about who i replaced was relevant here. if i scumread them while reading along, then that helps me sort the people who wagoned them. it makes me feel like it's more likely the wagon was town-driven, although maf could have taken advantage of it

[fireisredsir]

pooky do you wanna talk about your lion vote

and did anything he's posted since then change your thoughts at all

[fireisredsir]

andante it was brought up by someone and i was responding to them. that is not at all a fair representation of what ive said. chill

[fireisredsir]

i heard that in your final thesis defense for a game theory doctorate, you get paired with one other candidate, and each of you are given a choice to make...

[fireisredsir]

2. Choosing to post a readslist you made before you knew your alignment when the default perspective of this particular player is obviously town before they receive a role pm I think is more plausibly coming from the perspective of someone who has a perfectly good set of town opinions and that replacing them with their now scum-o-vision is both additional effort they might not wanna waste by making another list and, if they're not confident is likely to pass muster better than writing a list now that they're town.

this isn't really worth debating but im going to anyway: if i cared about that then i could have tried to pass it off as notes i made in the moment rather than what I had before. however my opinions did not change when i entered the game so there was no reason to revise my thoughts or make new ones

[fireisredsir]

HEAL: Catboi

[fireisredsir]

So you're saying you replaced into a town slot, basically

well, i did, but no i was saying that idk if your narrative really fits bc given the motivations you are ascribing to scum me, the course of action that i took is not one that really makes sense as a result of those motivations

[fireisredsir]

ive been reading some morning tweet games and learned not much bc she replaces into games a lot and so i don't have many day 1s to compare to. i think i can buy that she can be a little less assertive early as maf. but i can also buy that she genuinely feels like she is stronger later in the game and isn't very enthused about the start of a large

so based on meta this looks well in her scumrange but not outside her townrange either. which means we can look at play instead, yay! and the play looks kinda scummy imo

[fireisredsir]

yes ??

different people like to sort and solve in different ways. no one was really here to interact with so i went and looked at other games. i do that a lot

[fireisredsir]

i don't think i can read you very well either andante, and your playstyle is a big part of that. that is not at all saying that i hate your playstyle or don't like you. being readable by others is only part of the game

[fireisredsir]

what are your reads currently looking like this game, I think that'd help me

im not feeling a lot of strong ones. im finding it kinda hard to play the game in the way that i normally would like to, prob cause i entered the game with a bunch of votes already on me and that changes a lot of dynamics

but...

id say greeting and frog look p towny. catboi and vp look towny also but they're scary so idk if I trust them. im also kinda hesitantly trusting lion for now despite my initial sus. for scum rn im most interested in MT, menalque, andres. im not really feeling very trusting of csf, strange, and bell and am keeping an eye there, but am not really interested in pursuing there at the moment. the rest are somewhere in between or i don't have a good feel for them yet

[fireisredsir]

Unfortunately, I feel like this could potentially be alignment indicative. I've played with catboi a few times before and he was never like this.

ive read some games with him in it and do not think this is alignment indicative lol, if anything i think he is that way as town more often

[fireisredsir]

I did notice this as well, but I kind of wondered how much his new avi has to do with perception of it.

ok but counterpoint his avi do be kinda cute

[fireisredsir]

hmm ok, can I get some explanations for the catboi tr, and why you're trusting lion even though you're sus of lion? (Don't worry about "scary" people... I promise they're just like me and you, super nice!!)

from catboi i get a feeling of him not really wanting to get down in the trenches in the dayplay yet. he talked a lot about mech and what mech strategy he thought was best, but lately it kinds feels like he's just sitting and watching and solving in his own head. i kinda get the impression he would want to try to control the game more as scum. i could be wrong and that's why im not fully trusting! but i feel more towny vibes so far

lion posted some early posts that I thought were kinda scummy and then disappeared. but then when he came back i liked his posts a lot and felt he was more towny. but he's also a good player i think and so i don't think i should really townread him for making good posts (pooky said something similar), but i like the direction he's going so im ok with hesitantly trusting him for now!

[fireisredsir]

ok ok i see how it is, next time game content responses first, fluff responses second

[fireisredsir]

So you have a TR on catboi... for essentially doing no solving?? You do realize it's easy for maf to talk mech... mech gives off nothing alignment indicative... and if catboi is one of your strong TRs.. with this reasoning?? umm I'm not even sure what to make of this

The lion read feels weird too, like, can you point to specific posts that you feel are towny?



these reads are just... you CAME IN with stronger reads than this from when you were following along... now? it's like "ehhh yeah they town!!" which I'm not sure I buy these are legit reads.. I need you to convince me more that these are your reads, sell me on the idea catboi is town, and sell me that GL is leaning town

catboi: call it gut if you want, but it's based on how i think he would approach the game based on who i think he is as a player. maybe that's not how you read people but to me at least those kind of reads are where my most confident reads come from. i like to think about what motivations people would have to do what they're doing as either town or maf and then decide which one i think is more likely

lion: 853 and 875, that MT post was something i gutread as scummy but didn't really have the words for why and so to see him calling it out too and also give an explanation for it that fit with what i was thinking made me like him more. besides MT, his response to me in 857 felt good and solvy to me. idk if im really townleaning him individually but i agree with him on MT and if he's right on that then i think he's town. if not then eh its less of a townlean

reads in general: i don't think my reads are any stronger or weaker now than they were before, it's just that when responding to something in the moment it's easy to snap say "this is scummy" or "this is towny", but if you're asking me to like really reflect and explain my thought process, there's a lot more going on than that bc i don't ever locktown or lockscum people, especially this early

[fireisredsir]

i also don't think catboi is doing no solving and didn't say i was TRing him for that. i just don't think he's sharing all of his solving with the thread, and just commenting on something when he feels it's worth doing. maybe he does that as scum sometimes too but in this case at least i feel towny vibes. he was also more outwardly pushing people earlier, like with luke, and that felt towny to me too

[fireisredsir]

I think I wanna revisit your lion thing later, cause agreeing with someone on a sr is kinda just meh... like, MT has basically been SRed from the start I think, so it's not exactly an original read.. so I'm not a huge fan of the read

really? ig i wasn't here, but i didn't see anyone comment on MT looking scummy until after i came in. ill go have a look tho

[fireisredsir]

look, a ghost

idk what this means. i feel like im missing an inside joke or smth

[fireisredsir]

I mean, I had tweet as scum early, and I think people started SRing her more when I moved her to TR

yea i reread and this is accurate, you had her as scum early but you were mostly the only one, a few others had her null. then you switched her to town in 481. nobody mentioned her until 663 where luke calls her town. then i said gut scumread off one of her posts in my notes in 702. so i don't think she was ever really a popular scumread until recently

[fireisredsir]

I thought you were scumreading MT for hedge-y posts, but you're also saying MT lacking confidence can be ascribed to general aversion to day 1 and large games.

Can you remind me why you scumread her again?

i am. i just like to explore both possibilities to think about what the alternative could be if im wrong. which i guess you could argue is kinda like hedging! so to be more specific, i don't think it's hedgey exactly, i think the way that she went about it (specifically talking about 487 here, but i think similar ideas extend to other posts as well) didn't really read as if she was trying to solve the slot for herself, it felt more perfomative, like she knew it was a major topic of conversation that she needed to comment on but didn't really want to commit to either side. the evidence that she gave ("deflated", "I like the approach", "disconnected") seems more like it's aimed at appeasing other members in the game as opposed to evidence that one would actually use to sort. lion talked about this a bit earlier as well, saying something like that scum luke wouldn't be scared at all by that kind of post, and i think that's similar to how I feel about it.

[fireisredsir]

Menalque - Don't remember Mena doing much this game. People are town binning this slot for some reason I feel like I don't understand. Definitely need to read.

im not!

[fireisredsir]

Have wallpost read lists come back into fashion? Maybe I'll post one later

Yes! I have an idea based on Francis Galton's guessing experiment.

im sure that guy never had any bad ideas

[fireisredsir]

we can kill somebody but i call dibs on it not being me

[fireisredsir]

i find this pooky point to be somewhat intriguing

at least more interesting than the other vp pushes so far which have done nothing for me

[fireisredsir]

ok but where are your hipshots

[fireisredsir]

it's a joke for the mod, carry on

[fireisredsir]

i don't think the readlist thing is a good point btw (its v easy to find completed town game where he has

[fireisredsir]

i don't think the readlist thing is a good point btw (its v easy to find a completed town game where he has done that) but the first point was a decent one

ebwop hit submit accidentally

[fireisredsir]

HEAL: Pooky

[fireisredsir]

HEAL: Pooky

Pretty sure the mod could announce you IC and I would be calling you scum for it at this post based on my "goddamnit, fucking wifom" emotional response to this.

i also have gotten that impression lol

it's cool, i get it, that's the nature of replacing. if there's things about my play on its own that you wanna talk about at any point go for it, otherwise ima just keep doin my best to contribute

[fireisredsir]

I think the scummiest thing about fire's play so far is that they seem to be playing it entirely safe with their their posting and not ruffle feathers at all

most of the people whose feathers i would like to ruffle have disappeared

[fireisredsir]

I wanted to wait until

GuiltyLion

comes back and question him, but he didn't show up.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

The reason for this is a very specific type of scumread, which is relying on consensus reads. Consensus reads, in my opinion, useless and counterproductive for town right now, but very useful for scum. The pool of townies should be a sum of individual townreads. Not "x is town because y is town and townreads x". Forming associations like this Day 1 is a bad strategy as they are unsupported by any hard data as to whom is voting out whom and whom is nominating for bomb expert (which is equated to being a townread in this game). We'll get the hard data once Day 1 is over. Right now this is just constantly shifting and it's not uncommon for mafia to be distancing themselves from one another.

so you're saying that lion is doing this and therefore he is scum? can you point out the posts? i don't see the connection between what he's posted and what you're saying. or are you saying that consensus reads are useful for finding scum, and so you're scumreading him bc he's not a consensus townread? i just don't really follow what your point is here and how it leads to a lion vote

[fireisredsir]

only 7 people aren't healing me.... 19 player game... how the heck do I have 12 votes? that's scary to me

i can unheal you if you want lol i just thought you wanted to be bomb expert and that we were trying to make your pooky team be the top 4

[fireisredsir]

lion and catboi, can you talk more about the menalque "good vibes"? is this something based on who they are as a player? cause i don't really feel good vibes and am wondering where they're coming from

[fireisredsir]

ty for the menalque history lesson. that doesn't really change my opinions tbh but i understand why you have yours at least

[fireisredsir]

With regard to menalque his preference is toward playing town, I got out of a scumgame recently where he was awkward as fuck, he seemed unbothered here early, good enough for a gut read. He doesn't have as much time for playing games these days so I don't think the lack of presence is particularly an alignment tell for him.

could you link that game? i was scumreading him off something closer to awkwardness anyway, not lack of presence

[fireisredsir]

vp do you think you'd try to pocket me if you were scum here

be honest

[fireisredsir]

I have some time so I'll take another look at Luke and fire, but something about fire's way of formatting posts make them hard to read for me ._.

should i format them differently? ive never gotten this complaint but i am kinda new to forum format lol

[fireisredsir]

1.) Scum is sitting idly while town just wins

Btw if this is the case the team is like...

Fire (luke slot), Mala (praet slot), Andres, and idk Titus?

So if we flip in there and keep hitting scum then fine by me but I'd like to not just assume that's the case

VOTE: Fire

Maybe strange could be as well cause I think they complained about me voting fire earlier?

if 1 is very unlikely then why are you voting assuming it's the case?

[fireisredsir]

i must inform you then that your theories are incorrect

[fireisredsir]

rereading some slots that i didn't have a good feel for:

- CSF, i like a lot better than I did before. i think the push on dwlee is better than i thought it was at first, i kinda misread dwlee's play around andante and it's not as towny as i thought it was at first. i think 1380 is a good post as well and made me think twice about vp. doesn't really seem agenda-pushing, seems to be thinking independently, pretty towny imo

- dwlee, ive never been in a dwlee scumgame so i went and read a couple of them, especially since i liked csf posts around them. and i don't really think they're outside their scumrange here. buuut i still would slightly lean town if im looking pure meta bc i feel like they are a bit more proactive here than i saw in their scumgames. if im ignoring meta, ehhhh. @dwlee do you still think frog is maf?

- ceph feels... honest, imo, like very up front about what he's thinking and not really afraid if it looks bad. that usually makes me lean towards town. 521 was also the funniest post of the game, so points for that

- malakittens/the praetorian... yea nothing towny here. not blatantly scummy either, but i think the catchup attempt was pretty weak and didn't really result in any thoughts

i still think the slots im most sus of and that are most likely to have scum are not really present at the moment. there could be scum in the more talkative players but im not really seeing who? it would fit in dwlee's world of scum just sitting back and letting the town win if that isn't, like, an active choice of theirs. maybe they're just not here

[fireisredsir]

@greeting can you respond to 1333 (or 1357)? i don't understand your lion vote

[fireisredsir]

what makes it textbook scum enchant? i have no idea how to read enchant

[fireisredsir]

i see i see i just have also seen enchant do that when in a town slot so idk what the difference is. dwlee didn't say for sure town, but i agree they acted weird around that whole situation

[fireisredsir]

i agree i think i have done irreparable damage to the scum team, thank you frog

[fireisredsir]

why do you think im scum

[fireisredsir]

like you scumread luke for his mech discussion, then move him to null soon after, and have him in null until 443 where his reaction was a bad look. then you say catboi's vote on him is a good read, and after that... nothing, except saying you would "compromise vote" me, and putting me in all your solves with no explanation, and now you're just treating me as lockscum

[fireisredsir]

idk how to towncase myself when you have no scumcase. i feel like ive been here, trying to solve, trying to engage with people. i don't think there's anything that ive done that you could say has more scum motivation than town motivation

sure, what do you want to go over?

[fireisredsir]

yea, people were talking about mech and im not very good at mech and i assume that the smart people will figure out what's best. im also not very good at reading alignments off of people's mech discussions so to me all of that section of the thread didn't really do much for me and i just wanted to get to the fun part.

greeting i was pretty sure was town, enough to not consider him as scum for the first couple days at least. it's possible that he knows that he has a tendency to do what he did and would know how to imitate that as scum and faked it all, but that's kind of a stretch and not really worth considering for now. so yea, prob town

vp read like vp to me, and most of the votes that i saw on him felt like people voting vp for things that are vp. like, just aspects of his personality and the way he phrases things that i think tend to set people off on suspicion. i didn't really agree with your tone read, he didn't feel any different to me in tone than in his town games. maybe im just not picking up on it but eh i didn't see much of anything interesting there

[fireisredsir]

can you give some thoughts while you're here

don't be like bulge and say you've caught up partway and then say nothing and disappear again

[fireisredsir]

Now fire, this part of 702 confused me quite a bit. I imagine catboi being locktown was hyperbole, and you're in lukewarms slot, but you wrote this part before replacing into the slot I think I remember you saying. Am I correct on all that? And which players were you referring to as efforting it up and not being town?

correct on all counts, yes. i liked catboi's read and so i thought he was town, even though now i know he was wrong i still think it likely comes from town. the locktown was an exaggeration but my immediate reaction was along the lines of "haha, yes! yes!!". i know that people don't like when replacements comment on their prior slot's play but i thought it was relevant here and didn't really care to censor myself

the people that i thought were efforting it up were you, andante, greeting, catboi, plus tweet and bulge in the mech discussion at least. i was musing that probably not all of those were town. I thought of those, you, catboi, and greeting looked the most town. i also thought andante was scummy at the time, so i was mostly referring to her, but i think she got townier later. i gutread tweet as scummy for something unrelated, so I guess she counts, but i don't think i was thinking of her when I wrote that. bulge i have no idea, didn't say much ai imo

[fireisredsir]

148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from VPB. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.

wasn't he directly asked? why is it bad that he answered the question

[fireisredsir]

Now here I feel like there is a lot of insight and it kind of all just comes tumbling out at the same time. Dwlee is a townread of yours? And Strange is a scum lean would you say? Would you say that Strange is comparable to Tweet here, are Strange and Tweet different kinds of scummy or different levels of scummy?

at the time, dwlee was a townread. now, less so.

strange was a scumlean at that time but some people have said that she is kind of like that all the time. so id still have her on the scum side of the table but im not very interested in pushing there yet, i think other places are more interesting

tweet is def a different kind of scummy. strange was like a positioning scummy, tweet was more of a gut read based on the way she was approaching forming her posts. at the time idk who was stronger, but currently tweet is def a stronger scumread, and i think (partly due to lion writing things out) i also have a better sense of what exactly i found scummy about her posts

[fireisredsir]

Frogster, didn't fire claim that 702 was written before he replaced in?

If so, I'm not sure the post is AI.

ye, frog knows this im pretty sure. it is still my thoughts on the game though

my understanding is that frog just wanted to better understand where i was at in how i was reading the game and is using those notes as a place to jump off from to see what im thinking

[fireisredsir]

idk, if frog wants to talk im not gonna say no

[fireisredsir]

I don't doubt that. But if you had these thoughts before replacing into the game, then questioning them now is kind of pointless, since you could've received a red PM and went like "eh imma post my notes anyway since they're genuine."

In contrast, if you had received a red PM from the start, you probably would've had different notes. Does that make sense?

frog apparently disagrees that it is pointless. i do agree with you that the notes should not really be considered AI, ive said that before, but whatever, he wants to talk about them. i assume he thinks that my expanding on my thought process in some way helps him sort me

[fireisredsir]

Now here we have a lot of a scum reads, and no offense, but this take on Menalque 164 is a bit hedge. Are you townreading Menalque or scum reading Menalque, also what do you mean by the hmmms?

The reads between Lion and Prae stemming from 256 seem to share a thought here, is this an associative read? Like Lion is scum if Prae is town?

And finally at this point you say andante is scummy, how did feel about Andante's posts while you were spectating the game compared to once you were in it?

more scumreading mel. the post makes me say hmmm. i recognize that what im seeing could come from a town with a certain personality, but i still scumread it bc it feels overly self-conscious

lion and prae not connected. i noted the prae thing bc it made me a little more confident in the fact that i felt sus of the lion vote. it helped me see for myself that I wasn't just scumreading people who voted vp, there was something specific about the way lion talked about his vote that pinged me. ive liked lion's posting better since then, though

andante i felt better about her later posting, but also better after i engaged with her a bit. andante is v much an engagement-based player, and i think she's hard to read unless you're talking with her directly

[fireisredsir]

apologies for filling up the thread with what i falsely hoped could be a productive conversation, feel kinda bad that people are going to read through all of that only to end up seeing it's just frog being frog

[fireisredsir]

this is p towny for frog, unless he has become self-aware enough to realize that he can act like this as scum and just torpedo the game and people will townread him for it anyway

[fireisredsir]

the reason I wanted to hear what bell's "Luke scummy" reasoning involved was to see if it seemed plausible to me or not

I didn't want to pre-emptively give my reasons for being willing to get on board to avoid him having the opportunity to parrot them back to me

does this still seem more scummy than solvy to you and if so why?

well that mostly depends on if i believe this to be more likely to be a reason that is true or a reason that you came up with to justify it

i think for me to believe it is more likely to be solvy, id have to have seen you make some attempt to sort bell's slot as a result of his response. which i don't really see in your posts. 616 doesn't really have what im looking for, and doesn't really say anything at all actually, even about luke

but if it was in your brain and not in your posts you can feel free to share now and i can see if that seems believable!

[fireisredsir]

okay, I like GL, Titus, frog, CSF, bell for town

I'd vote anywhere in (fire, MT!slot, andres) with a slight preference to the first two

***

I would like to reiterate that I would like to be a bomb expert

Ooo, some spicy stuff in here. I have like 10 pages to catch up on this afternoon, but csf, Titus and andres reads have me interested

i feel like it is actually anti-spicy

like none of these seem out of the ordinary at all to me

i would describe it as mayonnaise levels of spice

[fireisredsir]

Town reading Titus is a little wtf to me. I think CSF is somewhat meh too, but maybe there is stuff in those pages I haven't seen. You just mad cause you're getting scum read?

no. lots of people scumread me, im not mad about it. altho i do think that it would be extremely easy for scum to coast on a luke scumread here and not actually have to engage with the person they suspect

they all just seem like very safe reads

[fireisredsir]

Also, fire should probably make a game solve or try to catch scum if I'm being a fuck up again. They're dying no matter what, but they seem level headed so I won't begrudge them a socratic finish.

ive been trying and will continue to try

[fireisredsir]

as long as the theatre involves ignoring frog and not engaging with him anymore bc he is trying to hero solve day 1 and it is clearly warping his perspective and making him useless

[fireisredsir]

if anyone thinks that anything ive done has a scum motivation im happy to talk about it

or like at least explain if your vote has anything to do with anything other than luke

that would be nice for helping to sort who is scum taking advantage of this

[fireisredsir]

I don’t feel much like there’s a spontaneity to you. You tend to make safe comments.
I never feel surprised at your takes or think they’re unique or imaginative.
I feel like you’re trying to get through the net primarily by making yourself available so that people feel like they’re treating you unfairly or that, you should be given “a chance”
But as mentioned, I don’t play fair. I play mafia.

oof that kinda hurts i think i have some good unique takes

but i think that's pretty fair. usually in games i get like immediately townread and then i work with those people to sort them and solve things. and i can kinda sit and watch what's going on and analyze from the sidelines. but this game, im what's going on. idk how to play my usual game when i get suspected but ig it's a good learning experience!

[fireisredsir]

bell i was gonna come up with some hot takes for you but unfortunately i just don't really have any

i think things are generally moving in the right direction here with the obvious exception of people being on me

it would be pretty easy to lie and come up with some if I were maf but meh im not

i know you probably won't like this post either but i can't help you there

[fireisredsir]

same

[fireisredsir]

Fire, can you post your stances real quick? I feel like your reads should have fluctuated since replace in. I don't need elaborations, just an idea of where you are.

i don't really think in readlist form so i don't think one of those would be very useful, but yea i can summarize some thoughts in a bit when i have time to write them out

[fireisredsir]

1) greeting and frog are prob town. both have kinda questionable takes, but they're still prob town

2) catboi is prob town but is scary so you never know. ceph feels towny to me but maybe he's just likeable

3) i think there's multiple scum in the people who are mostly missing: tweet and menalque i scumread off play. andres, malakittens, enchant slot are in that category too but i don't really scumread them off play. i don't townread them either tho, so eh

4) i think there's likely to be scum in people wanting to take advantage of frog and/or people coasting off a luke scumread. csf and bell both fit this category but in my heart i kinda townread both. my heart can be wrong and often is

5) dwlee is probably just scum here actually lol

6) strange could also easily be scum... but the whole readslist thing that people are pushing her over is kinda BS imo. the general positioning and floatiness is kinda scummy on its own but apparently she does that a lot

7) vp and andante... hm. with both i think i WANT to townread them. but do I? idk. slightly hesitant here, but sort of trusting for now. i do think that a scum might try to kind of get on my side here, if you will. MT kinda did that so maybe it's just her. buuut i think its something to watch out for. maybe lion fits in that category too? hmm I hadn't thought of that until now but... it's possible

8) pooky and titus both kinda fit the category of strong player who isn't doing much. lately, catboi is falling into that category too. i dunno what to make of that. with a p strong player list, my guess is that this would be more likely to come from town who isn't too worried about needing to be active yet. if they were maf i feel like they would feel some pressure to work their way into a town core here. so... i don't think i would say im townreading them, but im ok with assuming they're town for now and dealing with them later if im still here

i think that's everybody

[fireisredsir]

so 3 scum most likely in:
[tweet, menalque]
[dwlee, strange]
[andres, mala, enchant]

and then like maybe 1 of:
[csf, bell]
[vp, andante]

an 11 person poe woohooo that's so useful

[fireisredsir]

oops I forgot lion too, maybe throw him in the lower category

[fireisredsir]

bell who do you think is scummy besides me

and what makes my list strange?

[fireisredsir]

andres posts that he's catching up: 1491
frog starts pressuring him: 1507

frog's entire premise is wrong

this will be the only engagement i have with this subject

[fireisredsir]

It’s haphazard and the placement of two PoE lists is confusing for no discernible reason.

haphazard? i think most scum are in the top group but there might be one in the lower group. idk what's confusing about that

[fireisredsir]

frog has still given a total of 0 reasons why he thinks im scum

[fireisredsir]

@fire, um. You should probably look at your own post again and think about why someone would think it’s strange given the information you provided.

uhh you're gonna have to spell it out for me. i don't know why someone would think it was strange

[fireisredsir]

wrt andres i feel like posts like 1543, 1559, and 1594 come off as more theory than solving in a way i think is scum indicative

his last two posts are pretty towny though

so i'd rather he follow up on his posts and go from there

why is it towny when andres shades frog and doesn't want to interact with him but it's scummy when i do it

is it cause im the leading wagon opposite yours

[fireisredsir]

@bell

- they're loosely grouped by how likely i think they're scum. scummiest at the top. the two separate poe chunks are a wider gap in likelihood. i feel like this should be pretty obvious???

- dwlee isn't in the top group cause my gutread isn't as strong as it is for the top two. their positioning looks pretty scummy tho so they get in the 2nd group.

- andres mala and enchant are all in the "they were pretty absent for a while or still are and haven't really done anything towny but also i don't specifically scumread their play" group. which one isn't like the others? they are in the same mental bucket for me

[fireisredsir]

i remember now that some people do their readlists with scummiest at the bottom. is that why you were confused?

[fireisredsir]

wrt andres i feel like posts like 1543, 1559, and 1594 come off as more theory than solving in a way i think is scum indicative

his last two posts are pretty towny though

so i'd rather he follow up on his posts and go from there

why is it towny when andres shades frog and doesn't want to interact with him but it's scummy when i do it

is it cause im the leading wagon opposite yours

cuz andres was being forward about it instead of indirect

i was direct with frog earlier, and then i learned it's a waste of time. andres hadn't learned that yet

[fireisredsir]

Scummiest usually aren't put at the top, nor do PoE lists usually involve segments of likelihood from top to bottom. Also, find it difficult to believe that you'd let Cephrir slip by with a near total absence of hunting, that they even admitted to. Even just basic ego protection should have had you put him in that list. Because later down the line, it would look really silly if you gave a player a pace for tone, when you've come off as fairly analytical so far.

This grouping only makes sense if you ignored or didn't try to get anything out of Andre's 40 posts.

idk like i said my brain doesn't really work in readlists. I tried to be helpful and make one but ig I should have just stuck with writing out my thoughts and not tried to summarize them for people to nitpick where exactly i placed every name. it literally doesn't matter bc the next time one of those people posts, my opinion will probably shift. i still think it isn't that hard to see what i meant

ceph feels towny, idk what you want me to say. why does he get a callout over titus and pooky? also being in my poe for now does not mean i will ignore the players outside of it forever. my opinions change often

i read andres posts and i don't find them especially towny or scummy. i still fit him in that category because he hasn't really fully engaged with the contemporary state of the thread besides when he talked to frog. scum is very capable of posting long catchup notes and then not really engaging in real time, and i treat the people who do as essentially the same as people who are mostly absent. i mostly read people off their positioning and movement and the way they engage with people and the thread

[fireisredsir]

yeah I was also wondering why fire hasn't said anything about andres

didn't I? i thought I did. maybe I was distracted by frog

[fireisredsir]

oh i guess i didn't. i mostly agree with the points that you've made criticizing the posts.

i don't really have a personal read on him bc i find it hard to read people who have only posted in the way he has posted so far (I like seeing how people engage with the thread at the time things are happening not after the fact), but the fact that he has only posted in that way so far makes me kinda suspicious.

but the fact that i don't have, like, any gut feeling towards him makes me a little hesitant to put him in the scummiest tier of my scumreads bc he could just be town who hasn't gotten into the game yet.

does that make sense?

[fireisredsir]

Good question, they're missing from your PoE too.

do you want me to put the whole game in my list of where I think scum could be? that seems exceptionally useless. you have to draw a line somewhere

[fireisredsir]

previously i thought you were arguing in good faith but im kinda having a hard time seeing that here

[fireisredsir]

yea i think i am generally reactive on day 1. after we have some flips I like to go digging and ISO and see interactions and stuff, but early on i just want to engage with people and see how they interact and approach things. day 1 is mostly gut anyway and my gut is strongest when the posts are fresh. reading things back doesn't do a lot for my gut, although I've tried a few times

with frog tbh i was mostly just bored and willing to talk to someone. i also think he's town and i like trying to solve the game with my townreads, and i was mistakenly hoping we might actually get somewhere with that conversation. i thought he wanted to see how my opinions had evolved since that post, but idk what he was even doing. probably looking for associations or something

[fireisredsir]

that's the dumbest possible take lmao why on earth would i do that

i could just not say i wrote it beforehand and get towncred for having it be my present-time thoughts on the thread

[fireisredsir]

also for refining reads, d1 if there's nobody around to talk to i usually go meta read people who i don't know very well to get a better feel for them, and ive done that a decent amount this game

[fireisredsir]

Hmm I think scum might be healing me

what makes you think that?

[fireisredsir]

@vp if you thought Misty's vote was bad/scummy, why vote andres instead of there? misty/MT slot is the 2nd wagon rn. i see you said you wanted to reread MT in 1139 but don't see any further attempts to sort there. i guess she disappeared but still

[fireisredsir]

vp part of the reason im confused by it is that you are normally, like, all gung ho about pushing for 2 dueling wagons d1

and me and MT/misty have been the top 2 wagons since 991. misty is at 5 votes and im at 7 rn, i think

so it's kinda weird to me that during that time, you have spent most of it as the only vote on strange, and then now you started a new wagon on andres

pls explain

[fireisredsir]

also im not opposed to the andres wagon and might join it if it picks up, but i am a little paranoid about a vp/misty pairing. and that doesn't really make me want to switch my vote away from misty at the moment

[fireisredsir]

ok good enough for me

BUT CONSIDER MY PARANOIA NOTED

[fireisredsir]

sure ok let's do it

VOTE: andres

[fireisredsir]

im willing to consider the possibility that im wrong, and am interested to see who joins this wagon

[fireisredsir]

my MT read is mostly gut anyway, i think there's like actually decent points against andres even tho i don't have much of a gutread on him. i like my gut a lot, so don't tell it i said this, but regretfully it is rarely correct on d1

and actually, misty's vote there right after i called out how I was worried about vp/misty pairing made me feel better about switching, not worse. bc i would think scum would be too self-conscious to do that like immediately after being called out. super bold play if scum there

[fireisredsir]

ok but even if you think im maf isn't it more fun to see what counterwagons pop up and who joins them? that's a lot of info!!

[fireisredsir]

i think all arguments are at their best when taken to the extreme

[fireisredsir]

ok eh i changed my mind again I think it's more likely scum are taking advantage of frog here to push this

VOTE: misty

[fireisredsir]

im willing to consider the possibility that im wrong, and am interested to see who joins this wagon

I don't think I'm buying this. You were just saying not to lend frog's absurd theories (and they are absurd) any credence, but now that it's convenient for you you're on board. I also hate seeing both you and misty here together no matter what the each of you voting the other status was before, and no I have not checked.

vp swayed me tbh but now that im looking at things again i think i should not have been so easily convinced

[fireisredsir]

ok eh i changed my mind again I think it's more likely scum are taking advantage of frog here to push this

VOTE: misty

Which scum? To me, those scum could well be you and misty.

my paranoia was a vp/misty pairing bc vp never considered the misty wagon despite his love of pushing for dueling wagons early on d1. csf would be another possibility to consider

[fireisredsir]

Idk why but my sense that you don't believe the words you're writing persists.

idk if i really believed in the andres push but i was interested to see where it went. i do believe 100% that scum would try to take advantage of frog here. i was hesitant due to the way misty voted andres right after i called them out for it but idk, too scummy to be scum is something i fall for too often, maybe it is just the simple answer

[fireisredsir]

who, me? i def think frog believes what they're saying, do you not?

[fireisredsir]

i do not think i am capable of imagining myself being frogsterking

[fireisredsir]

now that ive come to my senses i do not trust any of vp/misty/csf and would say it's like a 95% chance at least one of those is scum

[fireisredsir]

i miss pooky

[fireisredsir]

I'm probably town reading Andre now.
No, don't try to follow my reasoning ,your brain will split down the middle and your head will fall off.

ok now do me

[fireisredsir]

ok eh i changed my mind again I think it's more likely scum are taking advantage of frog here to push this

VOTE: misty

Did Andres' recent posts ring as towny to you?

the ones before i posted that did, and made me think "wait, this is dumb, why did i get convinced this was scum?". the ones after that? ehhh, less so. idk im not very confident in anything rn

[fireisredsir]

Andres always struck me as a more level headed player though and I don't think players like that push arguments like 1941. It isn't arguing in good faith

im a pretty level-headed player and i can totally understand why andres would find it difficult to remain level-headed in this situation

his annoyance at frog felt reflective of my own and that was part of why i started thinking he was town again

[fireisredsir]

can someone who isn't me tell frog that he seriously needs to chill and have like even an ounce of humility when it comes to his own opinions for there to be any hope of town winning this

because he will ignore it if it comes from me. and probably from anyone else but it's worth a try

[fireisredsir]

id be avoiding the thread too if i were a sane person

[fireisredsir]

im only still here cause you two are entertaining and helping me feel less annoyed at the state of this game, despite that you want me dead. i just feel bad for people who are trying to catch up and think that they will get anything useful out of reading anything that's happened lately

[fireisredsir]

i personally recommend for your own sake that you don't read it

[fireisredsir]

Fire your votes and unvotes in the last like 10 hours are weird af. I do not follow your reasoning. You think me and csf are pumping up frogster? Like, what is the logic there?

yea they are idk man

i saw yours and CSF's case for andres and i thought it looked good, so i joined it, following logic over gut. then andres came back and his posts felt like how i felt with frog, and my gut came back strong and won out over the prior logic and i no longer liked the push on him

and now... i still prefer misty but im not super confident in it. i think that there is clearly something scummy in that situation where the andres push started. i think some people will prob think that it's me. i just hope that if they do flip me and find out that it wasn't me, they will look very closely at that. so i amend my earlier statement, there is something worth reading in that section

as for you and csf, yes i think one of you probably is pumping up frog. csf moreso but i was concerned about your lack of consideration for misty

[fireisredsir]

andres, ignoring frog for a moment, can you take a look at where the votes on you started piling up and see what you think of that section? starting somewhere around 1787 and ending around 1921? i know you responded to some of the posts made about you, but im wondering what you think of the alignments of those involved

[fireisredsir]

and TALKING of that, fire, why did hearing about my backstory/history as a player not affect your read on me after GL + catboi answered?

GL said that you didn't want to try as hard anymore but that he believed that deep in your heart you still would want to tryhard if you rolled maf, and that you were laid-back and not caring.

catboi said that you seemed unbothered and not awkward.

i disagreed bc part of what pinged me was something along the lines of awkwardness, and i definitely didn't feel laid-back vibes. the bit about tryharding, that's fine i guess, but i think i would need to know you personally for me to believe that as a reason to change my read on you. it doesn't really do much for me hearing it second-hand

[fireisredsir]

that's not quite what GL said but close enough

I guess it still seems odd to me to solicit meta-info on me as a player only to immediately dismiss it as it relates to your own read. still making up my mind on that overall -- like why ask for second-hand meta then?

because my asking about it wasn't just about sorting your slot, it was also about sorting theirs. and i can't know in advance if the arguments they present will convince me or not but there's no reason not to see what they are. the context helps, i feel like i know slightly better what to expect from you and that could help me sort you in the future even if it didn't change things much for that initial read

[fireisredsir]

hold up

[fireisredsir]

can someone unvote for a moment idk if I'm in hammer range

[fireisredsir]

there's a good reason im asking for this but i want to try to read what's going on

[fireisredsir]

if I'm already hammered then whatever it's prob andres scum

[fireisredsir]

I have a protective role

[fireisredsir]

idk if there would also be a simple doctor alongside my role

[fireisredsir]

alright well good luck everyone!!

[fireisredsir]

there's probably scum in the people pushing this through before we get the bomb experts sorted btw

[fireisredsir]

I have a protective role

and the doc claim was totally fine by you?? everyone here is prot?? lmao

no it wasnt?? that's why I asked for an unvote I just got here

[fireisredsir]

i leave the thread for 20 minutes and everyone votes me smh

[fireisredsir]

i think you probably have to flip andres next but idk you do you

[fireisredsir]

anyone want to unvote so we can talk about it just in case that wasn't hammer? no? ok