Micro 1052: Lake Melancholy [END]

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: skitter

she's always maf

[fireisredsir]

do not fret, i shall solve the game!!

[fireisredsir]

do not fret, i shall solve the game!!

you're already on the shitlist, pal.

why, for taking this pagetop?

[fireisredsir]

awooooooo

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Fireisred
Sussy

go on

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Fireisred
Sussy

go on

Idk solve or something

ok the scumteam is skitter and ari

[fireisredsir]

nvm skitter used the word ping she is conftown

[fireisredsir]

wasps are def scum-aligned

[fireisredsir]

enchant = catboi you heard it here first

'twas just leftovers from the Page 2.

[fireisredsir]

edited out? now my post makes no sense smh

[fireisredsir]

Page 3 is the latest and greatest in shitposting trends, actually.

Dwlee might be town for lack of self-consciousness.

isn't lampshading by mentioning the omgus kinda self-conscious

[fireisredsir]

OMGUS isn't scummy so it's not lampshading

but others might see it that way, and mentioning it indicates that you were at least aware of how others could perceive that action

[fireisredsir]

Two ascetics is also not out of scope.

This is a weird thought to have

agreed actually

[fireisredsir]

Novice mailman is a pretty strange role no doubt. Why is a mailman so good it needs to be nerfed?

it seems to me like a lot of closed setups have at least one role that on some level is "the mods messing with players who try to setup spec"

[fireisredsir]

Town mailman is a role that depends on the strength of its user. It isn't useless though even without further role mechanics. Consider, for instance, that you can send someone breads on the night you die.

i hope someone sends me breads

[fireisredsir]

Fireisred isn't really solving and prism is like idk kinda townie and ceph seems like he doesn't hate his existence right now

what in the first 52 posts of the game do you think was solvable

[fireisredsir]

Fireisred isn't really solving and prism is like idk kinda townie and ceph seems like he doesn't hate his existence right now

what in the first 52 posts of the game do you think was solvable

I gave reads you can too

not if I don't have any that i care about

[fireisredsir]

Ok does that not apply to the like 5 other people in the game who did not have reads yet?

Also i think ceph can fake not hating the game for a whole 50 posts

Also i think vpb is somewhat scummy as well

Who else was active lurking give names

vp

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: dwlee

[fireisredsir]

@skitter what about their answers satisfied you?

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: dwlee

Why

for using 27 as your example of vp giving thoughts on the game, mostly

[fireisredsir]

Zero points for claiming ascetic. that's basic moves.

I could just pick this post instead idk I'm right about what I said

its the fact that you said it and the example you gave doesn't support it. that makes me think you just pulled up his iso and grabbed a post that you thought supported your argument to add to your evidence pile. but if it was a genuine read then there was some actual post out there that informed that read, and you would have found that one instead

[fireisredsir]

vp reads like he's still in rvs jokey mode but is also pushing semi-seriously and the vibes are kinda weird

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: dwlee

Why

for using 27 as your example of vp giving thoughts on the game, mostly

It's not completely serious but it does suggest a read

Not a read, but testing for responses.

how was my response

did i pass the test

[fireisredsir]

You wanna vote vpb with me?
Pedit u 2?

maybe, not yet

[fireisredsir]

we're already 20% of the way to datisi hating us when he wakes up

[fireisredsir]

vp this seems like a weird thing to pick on ngl

[fireisredsir]

vp this seems like a weird thing to pick on ngl

Nah. You catch scum D1 in a game like this by looking for people acting awkward. Especially in a game with lots of killers like this, scum will have a hard time finding a rhythm immediately. They will misread intentions and try to act natural. There is a whole artiface to D1 as scum where you need to get in the flow.

well if thats the case, then i think you're the one who feels the most awkward and having a hard time finding a rhythm

[fireisredsir]

Fire, why you voting dwlee? Just because they pulled some posts you don't agree were doing stuff?

mostly yea, it seemed scummy to me

their response was ok

i haven't decided if i want to move my vote yet or not

[fireisredsir]

that whole post is full of weird from VP

not even sure if its in a scummy way just in a not knowing whats going on way

[fireisredsir]

thats why im confused. i don't know if its really a scumtell for him

[fireisredsir]

i wanna hear if datisi thinks you're acting off this game

[fireisredsir]

that reminds me, i think dwlee was talking about a datisi/vp team?

surely in that case datisi is excited and stays up past his bedtime to knock out some theatre in the early thread first

same goes for datisi/ari probably

[fireisredsir]

okay i think i get what my subconsciousness was trying to tell me

skitt's fight with baltar *really* reminds me of the fight she and i had very early on in the recently finished large normal where she wanted to pick a fight with me early but it's wasn't going exactly right so she kept being like "but guys look how scummy is datisi being look!!!" and like

this is very very much reminding me of that

this is interesting cause i thought the same, except about her fight with dwlee. especially the way she pretty gently let them off the hook over not very much with a kind of "meh, thats good enough"

idk if I still think that but it is a thought that i had at one point

[fireisredsir]

Wait, you're scum reading skitter?

i was earlier, yes. did you forget that the wagon you were pushing had me as the first vote

i mean, it was a post 1 rvs vote, but i scumread her enough to keep it there for a while

now im not as much

[fireisredsir]

Why did your rvs vote become a real vote?

47 felt strange to me, there's no elaboration of what post she didn't like or why, which felt more like scum working for the sake of looking like working than town solving. im sure she would be capable of coming up with a reason not to like a post, but its about where her motivations were in posting that in the way she did

which is way more explanation than a page 2 scumread really deserves, but thats what you get. after that i didn't love the way she let dwlee off the hook but at the time i was more sus of dwlee. and then after that i started liking her more and liking the people that were pushing her less

[fireisredsir]

Why don't u like me?

220 247 272.

dwlee was also pushing skitter and i think they are kinda scummy too

[fireisredsir]

Is that not a chainsaw

Who is chainsawing who?

@ fire - what is your confidence level in being able to tone read me accurately?

i think they're saying me chainsawing for skitter bc i scumread you and dwlee. which tbh you could apply that narrative if you're assuming me or skitter's alignments, so shrug. it's wrong but i only know that cause i know im town

ive never played with you as scum so not very high. i don't think a toneread is exactly accurate, although there are some tone elements. but it's also about what you're choosing to say, not just about how you're saying it

[fireisredsir]

Do you town read skitter now?

no. just less keen on pushing alongside people that i have stronger scumreads on

[fireisredsir]

its not a defense though? like im not saying that people shouldn't be voting her

[fireisredsir]

my only completed games with dwlee are with town dwlee so i don't have a great feel for what is AI for them, but my impression from their town games is that there are specific things that stand out strongly to them and inform their reads

but i can see a world where they do that as town too

none of my reads are terribly strong at the moment tbh

[fireisredsir]

skitter feels mostly like the skitter im used to, but i have 2 completed games with skitter and in both she was scum. so. i don't know really if im seeing scum!skitter here or just skitter bc i currently do not have enough data points to distinguish those two

i do not think that being logically correct = town skitter, so no I don't think that's ridiculous dwlee

[fireisredsir]

UNVOTE:

[fireisredsir]

however, by making that statement, she is being logically incorrect, so....

[fireisredsir]

i do want to note I have seen Dats fumble around with his vpb read at semi-elo for a week when VpB was blazingly obvtown so I am not surprised he doesn't have one as of yet.

do you have a VP read?

[fireisredsir]

skitter feels mostly like the skitter im used to, but i have 2 completed games with skitter and in both she was scum

I'm not following what you're saying here. You only have played with scum skitter and you are saying she is playing like that, and you unvote?

I have to be misreading something here

i unvoted dwlee

[fireisredsir]

the important thing (maybe) is that either way he thinks he isn't doing it

[fireisredsir]

idk
someone pls interact with me directly my brain cannot understand this game as is

hi

what do you think of dwlee

[fireisredsir]

actually on second thought it's not actually AI for him because scum!him also wouldn't believe he's done anything wrong

thats what I meant by "either way"

[fireisredsir]

i do!

[fireisredsir]

Also btw i think fire is on ur list of people u cant read, i'm p sure they're town

why

[fireisredsir]

i am also

vla until monday

will prob be able to pop in now and then but likely won't be caught up

[fireisredsir]

So that seems off for prism to instead assume he's town bcause he didn't read the sample PM.

i think this is a misinterpretation

[fireisredsir]

So that seems off for prism to instead assume he's town bcause he didn't read the sample PM.

i think this is a misinterpretation

what is your interpretation.

enchant made a joke about how they were scumslipping by calling the role pm green

the town role pm was blue

there was a sample pm posted by mod, which was blue

prism says that enchant doesn't know to make that joke as scum bc that would mean they would need to have read the mod post and seen the blue sample pm

[fireisredsir]

maybe that was what you were saying? but it sounds like you're saying the argument is "didn't read the sample pm, therefore, town"

[fireisredsir]

ahhh sorry ceph

[fireisredsir]

Novice mailman is a pretty strange role no doubt. Why is a mailman so good it needs to be nerfed?

it seems to me like a lot of closed setups have at least one role that on some level is "the mods messing with players who try to setup spec"

You have examples that come to mind for you?

dwlee was a backup vig in a game with no vig

idk i feel like it happens a lot, mods don't like people being able to solve their setups so they mess with expectations

[fireisredsir]

This seems like a pedantic argument. Anytime we are getting to using single words in quotes, we have probably skewed too far from a good faith interpretation of what's being said.

that sounds like something that sounds nice but doesn't really apply to the current situation

like i don't think the fact that there is one word in quotes there has anything to do with the point being debated

[fireisredsir]

what is the point of this post?

it kinda sounded like you were doing busy work and trying to appear like the reasonable third party

[fireisredsir]

what is the point of this post?

it kinda sounded like you were doing busy work and trying to appear like the reasonable third party

Seems like an extremely bad faith read of me trying to defuse an argument between two people I don't think are scum.

i don't even understand this

are you saying you don't think you would do that as scum?

[fireisredsir]

Why the fuck would I?

Also, what is your actual read on me? I feel like you're shading me a good amount this game, but not like actually pushing for my lim.

well i had a long post written out and it got eaten by my phone so ill talk more later, gotta go soon

bullet points of it were:
- idk, maybe, i would. felt like you were trying to look good more than actually accomplish anything
- scummy early on but recent posting better
- everyone in this game is good at looking town, probably, so i feel like i should be hunting scum by looking at... positioning? where people choose to push? stuff like that. and then like a ton of words about my thoughts on that, which i will maybe type more on later, but ended mostly with me thinking that skitter backing off of dwlee early on is maybe the thing that has pinged me hardest as scummy

[fireisredsir]

hi im kinda here and after reading some im kinda feeling disinclined towards the prospect of another game where loud strongposting town eat each other alive and scum just sit and watch

[fireisredsir]

to be more clear, i am concerned that the gamestate feels kinda similar to how i think it would feel if that were indeed the case

[fireisredsir]

ok well im just gonna talk to myself for a bit if no one is around

what i wanted to say earlier in my post that my phone ate, was that in the previous large, where datisi and skitter were both scum, i mostly townread them off play, but there were certain things that did hit as scummy for me. moreso for skitter, but datisi had a couple. and all of them came down to when the things that they chose to push, the things they chose to back off of, the way they positioned themselves, just felt a little... off. there were plenty of posts where they were logical, rational, hitting genuine emotional beats, productive, solving, etc etc, all the things a good town should do. and those mostly did a good job of masking the moments that seemed off and made them feel insignificant. but those moments were still there.

i know thats a sample size of 1, but i also did feel similar things from skitter in panic room d1, so im rolling with it as a model of what i should be looking for when scumhunting Good Players (tm), cause i don't have any better ideas when there aren't any flips.

so i reread the game and here's a mostly unordered and maybe incomplete list

1. skitter backing off dwlee in 182. i was not satisfied at all with dwlee's answer here and i don't think skitter should have been either

2. skitter being the "reasonable party" in the prism vs ari debate is something ive seen scum skitter do. but i have a feeling its just something that skitter does. still noting it bc it is something i thought about

3. prism's switch on ari in 155. i know she's said recently that she thinks that would have been bad scumplay for her to do that, but idk the latching on thing here just kiiinda feels like the way in which scum could look for a weak spot to attack and tunnel. town can do that too obviously, and i think prisms reasoning later in the argument are fair and reasonable and well-stated, but there's something about the initial trigger that i don't quite buy. my heart isn't in this one tbh but i have told myself that im not supposed to listen to my heart here

4. vp's early aggressive push on skitter is just... hm. kinda reminds me of monkey in the recent panic room game, where he's plausibly hiding behind an exaggerated push "for the sake of pressure" because then you don't have to look genuine while doing it. hm hm. like it feels like it's too... out of the playbook? if that makes any sense? and something that someone would likely want to pull out if they're having trouble fitting in and vibing

5. my hearts not in this one either. shuichi in 222 and voting dwlee soon after. idk if i can really count this one bc i agree with it so it doesn't really feel off but... i can very easily see a world where scum would sheep me on a somewhat under the radar read. and people try to pocket me like an average of 10 times per game so i should probably be wary of that possibility

6. vp 255 just doesn't feel like vp picking on things that i think town vp should genuinely care about picking on

7. 275 mostly noting this for later if we get some flips. but it does feel like dwlee is realigning their reads to be looking for scum in the generally popular scumreads. this isn't an inherently scummy thing to do but it is a potentially significant positioning move

8. datisi giving a teamread of skitter/vp but not wanting to givr any sort of a read on vp individually felt a little off to me

9. actually kinda not loving datisi's push on skitter in general here on a reread, although it didn't bother me the first time. the things he's choosing as reasons don't quite feel like they match the tone of the push? god the more I type here the less i feel like these reads are useful or explained in any coherent way but im already committed

10. dwlee's switch on vp in 410 kinda stands out to me bc vp had just recently started making some more effort-y posts, but I don't think the posts were very good? maybe dwlee disagrees, but if they have tmi that vp is town, i think his posts would look townier than they are

11. prism with enchant as top townread in 422 is just strange imo. i don't think anyone is really obvtown here, so... maybe. mostly i just agree with all the points made by shuichi in 438



ok i got sleepy and this post is definitely already way longer than it should be. maybe ill continue this approach another time if i end up deciding it was useful

[fireisredsir]

no conclusions, only thoughts

maybe conclusions later

ill be back for more musing while lying in bed in like 24 hours maybe

sorry for the wall/spam etc etc

[fireisredsir]

-snip-

The micro with 6 scum in it?

I am struggling to feel confident in a scum read out here and fire has an embarrassment of riches

obviously not everyone who does something that has potential scum motivation is scum

im also struggling to feel confident in a scumread and that's why i decided to look at things from a different perspective

i didn't really take the next step to come to the conclusion of sorting out which ones i felt actually made people scum cause i got sleepy.

but probably vp and datisi strongest? maybe skitter? and if those are wrong then its probably like dwlee and enchant just chilling

[fireisredsir]

of the louder people i would put it as vp > skitter > prism > ari in scumminess. so prism didn't make the cut. there was like 1 or 2 things i noticed from her but they didn't really do as much for me as what i saw from vp and skitter

[fireisredsir]

I feel like Skitter is probably logically correct in some way but is still scum but idk if that's ridiculous of me or not

It is ridiculous of you, yes

does this imply that skitter is claiming she cannot be logically correct as scum? wild

Why is this what you're popping in to comment on >.>
And i dont think that's what i'm implying?
Pedit yes plz do, in particular 409 which i feel is incredibly misreppy

i would like skitter to explain what she was implying

[fireisredsir]

of the louder people i would put it as vp > skitter > prism > ari in scumminess. so prism didn't make the cut. there was like 1 or 2 things i noticed from her but they didn't really do as much for me as what i saw from vp and skitter

Datisi isn't louder people?

Actually looking at post count, I guess not

yeah i mentally had him in that category too until i looked at post count

but i feel like he's still kinda there in spirit, it's just that he hasn't been in the thread making posts as often as others

[fireisredsir]

hmm nope no thoughts, good night

the only new thing in my brain was that at first i thought that it didn't seem like a great move for scum skitter to move towards a vp townread. but maybe she would be trying to align her reads with prism in that case, and push for a datisi elim

idk its not a very useful thought but its all i have right now

[fireisredsir]

main reason im not voting atm is cause i would rather not be contributing to a wagon that im not feeling super confident in that may actually go through while im mostly not around in thread to see how things evolve and respond accordingly

ill prob vote tomorrow once im more here but it would likely be on one of vp/skitter/datisi

[fireisredsir]

Datisi is town. Would not recommend that vote.

just from 353, or is there more now that makes you think things?

i think he is very capable of making posts that sound like that as scum

[fireisredsir]

Lean scum on fireisred and am willing to vote there.

two main reasons for my play being different here, i think:

1) been gone the last few days so im not feeling very engaged with the thread rn. i think im not alone in feeling like nobody is really obvtown or obvscum here so far, and sifting out the more null reads is something that i don't feel confident in my ability to do when im mostly just popping in and out and not really able to engage with people or see things unfold in real time. shuichi and ari are the only ones i feel particularly towny on, and even there i have some paranoia

2) in combination with that, i know p much everyone in this game already, which is new for me. maybe for some people that makes things easier to read, but for me it makes me more able to see both sides of things and means i take longer to form solid reads

i know self meta is not gonna be very useful when i have nothing to back it up with, but im p sure i would have no difficulty voting someone here as scum, and i would because it obviously looks townier to others for me to do so. as town tho i really have no motivation to rn, at least until tomorrow when ill be back to normal levels of being around

[fireisredsir]

my only real townreads are ari and shuichi if that wasn't already clear

[fireisredsir]

the only anime i have seen are alf s1-s3 and scooby doo and the cyber chase sorry

scooby doo cyber chase is unironically one of the best movies of all time

[fireisredsir]

I feel like Skitter is probably logically correct in some way but is still scum but idk if that's ridiculous of me or not

It is ridiculous of you, yes

does this imply that skitter is claiming she cannot be logically correct as scum? wild

Why is this what you're popping in to comment on >.>
And i dont think that's what i'm implying?
Pedit yes plz do, in particular 409 which i feel is incredibly misreppy

i would like skitter to explain what she was implying

That it was ridiculous for dwlee to think i was right and still scumread me

that doesn't really explain anything

why is it ridiculous? people can be logically correct and scum at the same time. you are very often. im not tryna be pedantic here i actually think this is somewhat significant since you are strongly dismissing a suspicion for something that i think is clearly invalid. so i want you to explain more in detail what your thought process is on this point

[fireisredsir]

And its just a empty case
His iso is empty
Sure yeah i agree with you

You're saying that makes him scum tho, and that's the bit you havent adequately explained: why does his iso being empty make him scum?

what made you put enchant in above null in 484? and what changed?

[fireisredsir]

I don't love that basically the entire player list supports a skitter lim

i can't remember if anyone talked about this but i think it's bad for several reasons

one is that this is a 9p, its not like 2 scum are gonna have a large social influence on the game if one of them is being run up. the 1 partner could be one of the people who is like "yeah skitter kinda scummy" but not really pushing there, or it could be they already decided skitter is going down and are bussing, or it could be enchant who hasn't really given any reads

another reason is that vp was calling for more skitter votes and for a skitter wagon for like the whole early game. and then when he gets what he wants and skitter's response to pressure is, as he says, "not great", suddenly he backs off with the reasoning that there were too many people supporting the elim

like i don't think its valid at all to think that someone can't be scum in a 9p when they are a mostly consensus scumread

and vp's progression on skitter kinda makes me think that the team is just vp/skitt and they were like haha let's make an early push for pressure and towncred bc skitter is a strong player who can handle it and won't get limmed, oh oops, people actually agreed, ahhh, what now, find somewhere else to push

and skitter voting datisi when that seemed to be the likely push but then now switching to dwlee is just... kinda scummy

so i guess what im saying is

VOTE: skitter

let's bring this one back

[fireisredsir]

also hey what is UP im here now and ready to rumble

[fireisredsir]

@fire give my thunder back

ignore than my post was not actually that thunderous

actually excellent timing bc if you had posted it later i would have gotten paranoid that you were just following me around

but now i know it was genuine and so therefore i can just locktown you

[fireisredsir]

There's a lot of hedging here. 32 doesn't do anything besides try to look town -- as I write this, I'm thinking the entire concept of "I want to townread X, but I won't" is scummy, which is an original thing that's coming up for me right now; it looks like a town thought process but avoids committing to any read.

this reminds me that datisi did this multiple times in the last large when he was scum

[fireisredsir]

i mean it is also possible that vp's play around skitt was scummy just bc he's scum and not bc he's partners with her

so im also pretty down for a wagon there

[fireisredsir]

i kinda am feeling towny on datisi atm bc although i do agree he feels a little off (hard for me to tell since my only completed game with him he was scum, but i can get the vibes at least), it feels off in a similar way to how i myself feel off -- everyone is good, reads are hard to come by in this game, no one is obvtown or obvscum, we're all crammed in this tight space, etc etc. and i feel like i can kinda relate to the way in which it is affecting his play here

but i do know that he's good at feeling relatable as scum so i don't trust it completely. would prefer not to lim there today tho. gimme skitt or vp

[fireisredsir]

i also don't really think that the reasons you are casing dats are very scummy things in this specific game, skitter. like, weak reads, self-doubt, even the existential dread. im feeling most of those things as well so i don't really see it as that scummy. and its not like he's going over the top in playing it up, if he were i could totally see how that's scummy behavior, but i don't feel an overabundance of woe is me.

i think it would be believable that he would imitate those vibes as scum, but it's kind of a risky play unless he really sells it hard and i don't think he is, so the alternative would be to just project more confidence. there's been times when he has (someone said "bluster-y"?) but its always felt pretty thin and transparent, and his honest thoughts shine through pretty easily and quickly. compare to when he pushed on fua in the large, that felt blustery but he went like all in on it and really played it up

so the being kind of in the middle here just reads more as honest to me but trying at times to be good strong town player even when he doesn't fully believe in his own reads

[fireisredsir]

when you do get back prism i wanna know more about what you think on vp and why he is such strong town to you. i see 647 but would like more

[fireisredsir]

yea i found that pretty concerning. her posting since then has felt better to me (more the way she's positioning, not as much what she's saying) but i don't really know what she looks like under pressure

[fireisredsir]

responses never hurt

that was kinda my guess but the only time you got pressure in previous game you weren't caught up so the lack of posting prob was not ai

[fireisredsir]

do you have any thoughts on what i said re:datisi

[fireisredsir]

Uh oh, this feels important but I'm getting into eye-glaze 1v1 mode.

better than me, i just deemed it unimportant tbh

[fireisredsir]

Uh oh, this feels important but I'm getting into eye-glaze 1v1 mode.

better than me, i just deemed it unimportant tbh

...
Sigh

i mean i didn't ignore it, i just don't think that specific point is very good and that line doesn't seem very ai for either of you to me

[fireisredsir]

Skitter scum only really makes sense with enchant scum probably cause idk why she'd be like this to me as scum if Enchant is town except to maybe force me limmed after enchant or something

can you elaborate on this, im not following

do you mean she'd just take the free enchant lim as scum instead of trying to push elsewhere? vc was enchant (2), datisi (2), skitter (0) when she voted you over enchant

[fireisredsir]

oops d names, I meant dwlee (2) not datisi (2)

[fireisredsir]

i feel like a d1 lim like enchant (if enchant is town) pops up here sometimes if there's new threat of scum being limmed

[fireisredsir]

the switches were ari and datisi though so hm

[fireisredsir]

ari was a frustration vote but in theory that could be intentionally timed conveniently, in theory, but i don't really believe that

i actually missed the datisi vote and don't really understand it

[fireisredsir]

oh enchant made a joke claim i guess?

[fireisredsir]

earlier, not saying this one is a joke

[fireisredsir]

yea i meant the joke IC claim which datisi voted over. this one, idk

[fireisredsir]

i have no idea about mech or setup spec so ill let you guys sort this out i guess

[fireisredsir]

i have no idea about mech or setup spec so ill let you guys sort this out i guess

I am glad people refuse to think and just punt the basics

shrug, the basics to me is dayplay. mech isn't fun for me and im also not good at it. i don't think my speculations here would help the thread at all

[fireisredsir]

oh lol i just assumed bunyip was a flavored role name after a cryptid, the fact that it has a wiki page i think refutes prisms concern

[fireisredsir]

yea, i saw, ty

[fireisredsir]

let's goooooo im less sold on skitter now too

VOTE: vp

[fireisredsir]

my only real townreads are ari and shuichi if that wasn't already clear

Did you explain your shuichi townread?

Link is fine if so

no idea how much ive explained it if at all. but its mostly that he's been thinking good thoughts imo and mostly things i agree with, and when i went through looking for potentially scummy positioning plays and found some from almost everyone, him and ari were the two (and enchant, I think, but that hardly counts) that i didn't find anything for. there were some moments of paranoia (im getting flashbacks to when me+DV were very similar reads in the recent large and then after a while i got paranoid of that but eventually came back around), but then also right when i showed up with a skitter vote he was doing a dive on skitter and found her scummy, and we posted at like the same time

so the multiple instances of being on the same track makes me think town, and nothing makes me think scum. he's also not making any real active attempts to pocket me, mostly keeping his distance, the directional similarity feels pretty natural. again, similar vibes to the situation with DV, who did end up being town

[fireisredsir]

Ari consider unvoting until rational restored sanity Ari takes reins again

If you think I make this as scum with Baltar you're fucking joking, it's T/S or T/T

are you requiring that ari conditions every read that she has on you being scum

i feel like her level of certainty on you isn't high enough for that to be necessary. i guess she did post 982 which kind of is doing exactly that but still

[fireisredsir]

Do not follow why people want to lim Baltar

he's scummy and skitter got less scummy

[fireisredsir]

Do not follow why people want to lim Baltar

he's scummy and skitter got less scummy

Does he ever even give a reason for this? This is a read of convenience. How the fuck did I get more scummy when I wasn't even able to start posting until this afternoon?

never said you got more scummy

[fireisredsir]

does fire ever take a stance on Prism in this game?

no, not really. my impression of prism so far is that i don't feel like she's someone i can be very confident in a read in either direction, and im not likely to catch her as scum unless its later in the game and looking at more positional stuff. im not gonna pretend to have a solid stance on her yet, but i plan to keep an eye in that direction

[fireisredsir]

ok, fine.

why did it take datisi voting me before you were finally willing to vote me?

datisi is an inspiration and gives me the courage to fight on

actual answer is that i was also feeling like skitter's response to the latest pressure was kinda towny, and him voting you meant that it was possible to wagon you and see where that goes. i have been wanting to wagon you or skitter for a while now, i started with skitter but was happy going either way

[fireisredsir]

i have been wanting to wagon you or skitter for a while now, i started with skitter but was happy going either way

Why not just start it if you wanted it for awhile

bc i liked skitter wagon more until her response swayed me

[fireisredsir]

Does anyone actually think VPB is asking questions in good faith trying to figure things out

i think its possible enough that i plan to continue answering them

[fireisredsir]

Does anyone actually think VPB is asking questions in good faith trying to figure things out

i think its possible enough that i plan to continue answering them

You're so naïve - it's adorable.

give me a year or two on this site and soon i shall be as jaded and cynical as the best of them, innocence shattered. but for now my purity is intact

[fireisredsir]

good night!

[fireisredsir]

i am p inexperienced in the forum format especially relative to people in this game, ballpark 10-20 games or so? and not many as scum. ive played a good amount of chat and live mafia tho, and i think im a lot better at that, but im learning!!

[fireisredsir]

For example, his read on ceph just makes sense: it's a very +townie thought process to townread someone for basicslly having similar thoughts as you at the same time as you (i.e. they both came to the scum-me read at roughly the same time, independantly, and fire townreads ceph for that). The read is wrong, sure, but its a townie thought process

i thought you meant the read on you was wrong here, but on reread it looks like you're saying the read on shuichi? clarify pls and if so then why

[fireisredsir]

i think a town vp would be partner reading me with prism here. he has everyone as a townread except me, prism, shuichi, and im apparently pocketing shuichi. i haven't really engaged with prism much or talked about her, and when he poked about it i gave a pretty noncommittal answer. but he let that go, which i found strange

maybe he hasn't commented on that explicitly bc he knows prism would object to that idea

[fireisredsir]

Where did I say that's off the table?

you didn't (and that's not what I said), but i didn't see you explicitly bring it up either, and i think that would have been your natural town response to my 1214 if your stated reads are honest

[fireisredsir]

You cannot honestly believe this is a good point you are making.

why isn't it? i think you are not showing the townie thought process that you should be having, and there is potential scum motivation behind the actions

[fireisredsir]

Basically, what i was saying is that your read on ceph is townie: you both mutually came to a scumread on me at the same time, and you townread ceph for having a similar thought process at a similar time as you
That is a townie thoughr process imo

yes i got that much, which read were you saying was wrong tho?

[fireisredsir]

First, I never said I wasn't thinking that.

well, make it explicit then, were you/are you thinking that?

[fireisredsir]

that's not what i said either, like at all. i said that i think she would object to you pairing me with her, not to you scumreading her

[fireisredsir]

vp i think you're not getting what im saying at all but that's fine ig

[fireisredsir]

fun last few pages, y'all are entertaining

[fireisredsir]

ari is probably not gonna like this but i never fully understood why the immediate assumption for a novice mailman is that it must be intended as a scum ascetic finder

like if i drew that role i would have never thought of that

i guess i never thought heavily about what use a mailman could have anyway

everyone seems to agree on the point tho so ive just accepted it

[fireisredsir]

why am I still awake

yell yell yell

[fireisredsir]

what else would you use it for

is it enough to say that i have another idea

on one hand i know for sure that you are better at mech/setup spec than me so i should assume that you know what you're doing when you say that you think thats the only plausible use for it

but on the other hand i kinda think it might not be

[fireisredsir]

i would prefer there not be a lim on prism, enchant, ari, shuichi. could be scum in there, but i don't want it today. probably would lean away from skitter at this point. really would like vp and i think it's doable. not sure on dwlee and datisi.

[fireisredsir]

scum want a prism wagon, don't fall for scum propaganda!

[fireisredsir]

i would prefer there not be a lim on prism, enchant, ari, shuichi. could be scum in there, but i don't want it today. probably would lean away from skitter at this point. really would like vp and i think it's doable. not sure on dwlee and datisi.

You can't just be like "Yea this group of four could have scum but let's not lim there" in a 9p with 2 scum

by that i just meant that im not 100% townlocking them

[fireisredsir]

scum want a prism wagon, don't fall for scum propaganda!

Yeah watch out. Fire, who has not taken any serious stance on prism, really doesn't want this lim.

are we partners

[fireisredsir]

i just thought it was funny that you danced around saying it in like 5 different posts but never did

[fireisredsir]

i want you to commit to your stances! it's healthy! good for the heart

[fireisredsir]

its also funny cause vp thinks that i think i have some big gotcha or something, but i don't. it really was just a passing thought and he's the one who had made it into a big deal by squirming around it and acting weird and being afraid to actually put words to the things that he's implying

[fireisredsir]

i want you to commit to your stances! it's healthy! good for the heart

It took you 46 pages to vote me when I am the main person you have focused on all day.

did you miss where i was sus of dwlee and skitter more for most of the day and also where i didn't really want to push wagons while i wasn't around to see how people respond to them

[fireisredsir]

you talk about me as much or more than those two, yet you voted both of them and slinked around me for 46 pages like a jackal scoping a watering hole until I started pushing on you. People can read your ISO and ctrl+f "VP" "Dwlee" "Skitter"

yes indeed my vote on you in post 1128 was a reaction to you starting your push on me in 675, you've solved it

[fireisredsir]

vp you have very minimal progression on or engagement with datisi, but you have him as top town. 601 and 736 is basically it. why is that?

[fireisredsir]

dwlee why is vp town

[fireisredsir]

can you go find it again

[fireisredsir]

you're looking for 410

[fireisredsir]

Less talky, more votey

vp you have very minimal progression on or engagement with datisi, but you have him as top town. 601 and 736 is basically it. why is that?

more talky

[fireisredsir]

1445*

1454*?

[fireisredsir]

change vote back

[fireisredsir]

i promise to heavily consider prism tomorrow if you still think she's scum by then

[fireisredsir]

sounds like a good time to me

[fireisredsir]

but i want vp ):

[fireisredsir]

i don't think we're flipping someone in the immediate future but you never know what could happen

[fireisredsir]

enchant is still voting dwlee after saying they don't think dwlee is scum so they're kind of a wildcard and could swoop in any moment

[fireisredsir]

like this feels like some convoluted bullshit that "sounds logical" that scum can pull up to pretend to be having a logical thought process but in actuality it's like, this person didn't explicitly say we're scum together so he's scum like bro what are you talking about??? is that person known for having d1 solves as town but not as scum? if the answer to that is no or idk, then what are you doing

idk, it wasn't a major point, just something i was thinking about. and i think his response was scummy

[fireisredsir]

its not about his lack of hero solve, its about how i don't think the worldview he is presenting to the thread is internally consistent. and that he was intentionally dodging committing to an explanation of what his worldview actually is

[fireisredsir]

(3) I've read his scum game and it's p bad.

this is true lmao but that game was weird, i think ill be better next time

[fireisredsir]

what is internally inconsistent
the fact that he did not say you're paetners with prism

i mean, kind of. idk why that would not at least be in his brain and why he would just ignore that i gave a noncommittal answer when he asked if i had given a stance on prism -- like why ask if you don't even care about the answer?

i don't really want to die on this hill bc like i said not a major point

but he's just positioning wherever is convenient for him at the time (like look at how he calls for the wagons to be him and prism and then in 1501 tries to frame it as a 1v1 when it isn't even really about the two of them against each other, it's more about prism voters vs VP voters) and i don't think it matches up with any sort of town thought process

[fireisredsir]

i mean my poe is literally just prism ceph vpb

I think Dwlee belongs in this~

agreed this is probably right

[fireisredsir]

why are you zeroing in on this like its the sole thing supporting my vp suspicion

i voted him long before this

[fireisredsir]

thank you ari that is a good explanation

[fireisredsir]

actually addendum i agree with ari's post until she reaches the conclusion. i think its scummy for vp even if prism isn't a partner, bc in the specific appeal to her in 1501 it looks like he is clumsily trying to imply that it is TvT which just doesn't really make any sense given his read progression up to that point

[fireisredsir]

if we get 35 more pages in we'll have more than the 19p had on d1

[fireisredsir]

enchant is probably asleep

but in general yes

[fireisredsir]

Hope you're not referencing an ongoing there

no I mean the large that most of this list (as well as FL) played in that ended just before this started, its been referenced a few times

[fireisredsir]

It was 5 hours homie

that was AGES ago

DECADES

[fireisredsir]

still would like a reason for town vp, dwlee

[fireisredsir]

well that explains where a lot of the datisi posting went and why there was so weirdly little interaction between VP/datisi

[fireisredsir]

I think it was a good idea at the start so the game could develop organically. Hoods are distracting and that lets scum hide especially if it were all town.

I probably should have figured my actual wcumhunting would get ignored like usual but I thought that one was pretty good :c

i also read and appreciated it but i already agreed with most of it so there wasn't much to say

[fireisredsir]

i think the best way to end d1 here would be a flashwagon on draw

[fireisredsir]

i was joking about the draw lol, never drawing

[fireisredsir]

datisi didn't want a flip yet but eh

[fireisredsir]

i think enchant is town but im also kinda dumb so idk

[fireisredsir]

if shuichi was widely townread over you and datisi, i could potentially be paranoid of him going for a play where he outs the hood to chain lim you and datisi. but i don't think thats how it goes down, p sure more he's higher in most people's poe than datisi is. so it just seems like a losing play for him as scum

[fireisredsir]

is it bad that im starting to feel like vp might be town

i think these may be bad feelings and i should resist them

any advice

[fireisredsir]

prism has been teaching me how to do the reflective stepback and im just dying to try it out

[fireisredsir]

is it bad that im starting to feel like vp might be town

i think these may be bad feelings and i should resist them

any advice

Yes. Getting flipped here is borderline instantly losing as scum.

im not sure what conclusions you're saying should be made as a result of this fact

[fireisredsir]

is it bad that im starting to feel like vp might be town

Why are you feeling this way?

your play makes more sense to me knowing the existence of the hood

like it opens up a possible path for vp!town that i just wasn't seeing at all before

i still think that path is less likely but it's there

also i think dwlee does have a point that you're more agreeable as scum

[fireisredsir]

but i do think your solving under pressure is p weak and you would be doing more to work on the game itself rather than devoting all your time to playing the social game

so no they are BAD feelings and i will be STRONG

[fireisredsir]

like it opens up a possible path for vp!town that i just wasn't seeing at all before

can you explain this

i previously could not map some of vp's actions onto a model of him as town. the biggest one being his lack of engagement/interaction with you and any attempt to solve your slot

and the fact that there's a hood that is apparently pretty active helps potentially fill in some of the gaps in his progressions and attempts to solve

but on the other hand shuichi has known about the hood the whole time and still thinks vp is scum for similar reasons to what i think, so maybe this new information is just throwing me off by making a few things click but shouldn't really be case-shattering

[fireisredsir]

but i do think your solving under pressure is p weak and you would be doing more to work on the game itself rather than devoting all your time to playing the social game

I like how all your scum reads on me are based on what you think I SHOULD be doing here.

hm yes i do tend to scumread people for doing things that i think they are more likely to do as scum than town

last game (when you were town) you criticized me for scumreading you based on tone and vibes when I should be looking for scummy actions lol

[fireisredsir]

I am fairly convinced one of you is scum pocketing the other and I have been trying to figure out which way this is going all game.

I think this is a weak spot in my game because I usually have a good spidey sense for areas where this is generally happening in games, but I always have a hard time pinpointing who is pocketing who. The fact that you both act oblivious to this probably doesn't help.

i haven't been oblivious, ive commented on the possibility multiple times. i don't THINK it's happening but im very aware of the possibility

plus if he is scum pocketing me id rather stay nice and cozy and have him think that its working

[fireisredsir]

Yes, and you're getting closer if you're town here! The problem is you're hunting hypothetical things, rather than things that have happened. You're psychologizing what you think town!vp would do, rather than looking at what I have done in the game.

ill give this a ponder

but i think im looking at your actions in the game and seeing what i think has more likely to be town motivation and what has more likely to be scum motivation. to do that i obv need to hypothesize about what your town and scum motivations would be in that situation. i think thats valid and different than what you're characterizing it as

[fireisredsir]

It's not the right approach, imo, and leads to talking past each other. But you also could be scum and fighting a hypothetical VP is a convenient push. This is why I find the "prism-fire team callout" argument so suspicious. And then of course Suichi parrots you on it in the hood after you posted it, which I absolutely hate.

it did give me pause to see that datisi and prism both said it was a bad point and shuichi said it was a good one

i still think it's not, like, a super bad point, just not a very significant one, so at first when he agreed i was like haha yes

but then i was like hmm this could be meaningful

[fireisredsir]

A town!baltar lim is probably losing

ok ive been thinking on it and i don't think this perspective makes that much sense from someone who thinks prism is scum?

like yeah if vp and prism are both town then we're def in trouble. but if someone thinks exactly one of them is i don't feel like that person should think that elimming the wrong one means we just lose? maybe you can elaborate

[fireisredsir]

what the

did i miss where ari became scum again

[fireisredsir]

smh you had me scrolling through the iso looking to see if the setup spec argument had you actually thinking she was scum again

[fireisredsir]

I really don't think it's guaranteed one of them is scum

i know you said you don't really have scumreads rn but can you at least think about who it would be if it isn't either of them

because from my pov if it isn't either of them its like almost definitely you lol

and it might be even if it is one of them

[fireisredsir]

haha silly enchant and vp thinking that the ari scumread is real, no one could ever really think that

[fireisredsir]

ok i too have to pretend to be a real human person in the real human world today so i will attempt to not sit here and spam refresh this thread on my phone all day as usual

[fireisredsir]

You see the issue though right like we have these consensus townreads on a bunch of people and if those are wrong we are just going to hard lose

yea but if they're right then scum need to try to tear them down or they will hard lose

[fireisredsir]

why

[fireisredsir]

vp can you put the effort that you put into explaining your datisi progression into solving the game

like case me if thats what you want idc, just... something not about you?

don't get me wrong i did read the post thoroughly and appreciate the clarity it provided but even with the effort that still lands more on the social game side of things

[fireisredsir]

we can wait for datisi's test, so there's time

[fireisredsir]

and i would much prefer that to you putting a bunch of effort into responding to shuichi's case but do that if you must

[fireisredsir]

Nah, I'm not putting a higher rate of effort into this game than i am right now. I already spent like WAY too many hours this week on the game. It's fucking absurd for you to sit here and demand a bunch more work from me when you're probably scum here, and if you're not, well....

im not asking you to increase your effort. im asking you to redirect it away from talking about yourself. if you are not willing to do that, then i will have to continue to assume that your priority is your own survival and not on the gamesolving and scumhunting that i have seen you do in the past when under threat of death as town

[fireisredsir]

Skitter when I say I am fine with being flipped and I'm town and I mean it.

I usually am at e-1 and have lost all patience with the town.

And I will give them a time to say things and then self-hammer.

and I will follow through with Self Hammer.

Saying you are ok with being flipped when there are no votes on you is just performative defensive AtE.

this is one of the first points against prism that has resonated with me, fwiw. at least wrt 699 and 701

i do think the mech makes things different and could account for the faster throw-hands-up response, but still, it's something

[fireisredsir]

ok, right, i did also think that her initial trigger for scumreading you felt weak, i remember that now

[fireisredsir]

would be funny if it is prism/shuichi and the two points from 772 that i said "my heart's not in this one" were the two that were right

[fireisredsir]

you don't actually get credit for a right reads if you don't vote them out.

i know, my point was that i should get the opposite of credit (if that is the team) bc the one place i found possible reasons to scumread them i didn't believe in them

but anyway i still think vp is scum more

[fireisredsir]

I think prism flip hard wins no matter which alignment she is and that's including me getting flipped if she is town so let's do this pretty please?

do you still think the consensus townreads are more likely to be wrong than right?

[fireisredsir]

oh. yea i would agree the consensus goes ari and skitter town, with datisi slightly below. i assumed that you were talking about those earlier

i don't think me/enchant/ceph are at all consensus town

[fireisredsir]

i guess that is the group you were talking about but i did not follow that at all bc i didn't consider those to be consensus

[fireisredsir]

skitter has your read on datisi changed lately

i notice you are currently voting him but that was forever ago so i assume that is functionally just a no-vote

[fireisredsir]

nvm you are unvoted hm

[fireisredsir]

oh i guess that vc is pretty out of date

[fireisredsir]

yea we won't have a no elim. i can switch if necessary. but that is functionally 5 votes on VP with skitter and shuichi soooo