Mini 2270: Spring Fling!

[Bell]

Hi ladies and gentlemen and everything in between and outside that box.

[Bell]

Great andante. I’m proud of you but I shall learn my lesson and accept that everything is unknowable and I am destined to live in the darkness of ignorance.
Forever.

[Bell]

*pokes Noraa*
Hi.

[Bell]

Sure absolutely.
Let’s go with that.

[Bell]

Mine

[Bell]

Now now just because Noraa is scum doesn’t mean we can’t be polite.
*please ignore this if they’re not scum, but if they are scum don’t ignore think*

[Bell]

*stares off into the distance*
Did Noraa just decline a conflict of words

I need a moment to process this and decide if they just scum claimed or not.
Probably not because they’re perfectly capable of getting into it as scum.

[Bell]

oh yooo we don't have an IC this time lol

*blink*
You’re right.

Hi prism.

[Bell]

K.
*slams* breaks.
Both of you. Shush for a little. I already see where this is going.
Let’s all lurk for a bit before inevitably losing self control and spamming again.

[Bell]

I’m confident you will never run out of things to say or think Andante. Turn the faucet down to drip. You’ll have plenty of time to reaction test, prod, scum and town read everybody at least once.

@mala, hi.
@dunnstral: I don’t think Noraa has seen my extremely limited in improvement scum game.
But you can protest it, sure.

[Bell]

I’m already owned.

[Bell]

Andante and Noraa both get into it a lot and it will take up pages and pages of arguments when both of them can arguably be sorted well enough without the back and forth.

Hi myko.

[Bell]

I had dinner and just ate some cookies and cream icecream.

Am I scum yet.
Andante is a her.

[Bell]

can someone just write me a one page guide on how to scumhunt or form rational thoughts again my mind is shot for the night

Look for the people who aren’t hunting and kill them.

[Bell]

I know im playing with fire but me asking ydrasse to dance vs prism asking andante.
one is extremely scummy and the equivalent of "anyone want to dance?"
but the other is like apparently so towny that the dance is happening.

how does that make sense

You are playing with fire. In that it's not socially cool in middle school to complain about unfair double standards. But otherwise? I don't reallykno what you're trying to actually get at beyond complaining about it. I mean, there's a clear difference in that Andante had more time to develop and you were already offering on like, page 2 before Ydra said anything townie.

[Bell]

Andante's play so far reminds me of a puppy biting at my shoe while my leg is still attached because I got in their way. But I'm actually okay with that. They don't have to listen. I just won't talk to or address them unless I think it particularly relevant.
I dunno what Andante scum looks like. They've appeared townie since I've known them. This game isn't much of an exception.

Strangely, I actually agree with Ydra so far, but both Fire and Luke are the types of players I like, so I'm looking forward to seeing them play and maybe changing my mind.

[Bell]

You're saying that Andante is an easy mark.

[Bell]

Dogs are very loyal if you play with them. This is true.

[Bell]

No reaction to the pairing itself, Bell?

You're not both scum together.

Other than that, It's just a jumble of projections. I don't think Andante is a bad partner if you had a gun to your head and had to choose one within the first 10 pages. I do think you can easily manipulate her if you're scum though and I find the odds of her choosing to go down with you to be much lower than the opposite outcome where you realize she's scum and just choose to killer her in 2 or 3 game days.

[Bell]

In terms of Andante themselves I think I lean town on them just based on their current presentation and you seem relatively self-controlled so far, which just leaves me with a null read. As you say, you like Mafia a lot and you can talk about yourself a lot, so I feel if I ask you how your approach to mafia has changed from 2021 to 2022 I would get a novel in response and I don't think I'd be any closer to figuring it out other than waiting until you slip into habits, if you ever do or if I even understand you.

[Bell]

I don't really think it's in character for you to make a proposal like that so quickly but if you were going to make a proposal I think you would do it with the aim of pairing with a town's member and they had a lot of posts at the time, some might have even been very AI for them.
Andante immediately taking you up on the offer..I haven't thought about it but my intuition is that I'm not sure what else you'd expect from Andante given how they choose to present themselves to the world.
I guess they could have faked paranoia if they were scum, but I wouldn't know for sure if that's how they'd approach it as scum or not. Ultimately they didn't though, but that might be How I'd expect them too.

[Bell]

Andante immediately taking you up on the offer..

you say that like you think I'd actually wait to make a decision... like, what? you expected me to sit here for 48 hours? lol nahhh we're going for it!!! A partner that isn't gonna force me to solve in the hood? heck yeah!!

also not sure why there's all this prism alignment talk... there's a gentleman that won't have a partner, and will then leave the game... might want to start just focussing on who is getting left behind tbh

This may very well be the worst take.

[Bell]

Take that mod

[Bell]

They’re very serious face and then doubled down on the serious faceness.
As everyone knows there is only so serious face a scum will be early game because they don’t know how people will react to their resting serious face. They’re very serious about this. If people don’t post content 100% of the time then they’re scum: serious face.

Starring: serious face.

[Bell]

I don’t know what to make of Dunnstral’s new level of stoicness.
They were always stoic, but this is brick stoic.

What is a joke? Who is rob? What is life? Error error. Beep. BOOP.

[Bell]

maybe I should intentionally hit 200 now so I don't have to deal with talking later...

It's a limit, not a goal

You don’t actually think you’re dispensing wisdom here right? It’s just too on the nose and taking them relatively literally and seriously. It’s weird. Not scummy, but weird.

Anyway, @fire: sure, I’m not one of the people town reading them anyway. As I hold that some scum do in fact like to play dean.

[Bell]

[quote="Datasi]bell, did you have any sorta thoughts on noraa from 35 to 56? like, going from "noraa isn't arguing???" to "stop arguing!" without like, any other accompanying thought on noraa?
[/quote]

Other than quietly noting that it happened and there is a strange mix of ordinary excitable noraa and calm alien Noraa, nope. I just didn't say anything because I don't know what to make of it.

[Bell]

I'm surprised Prism still wants me left out. But okay.
Dat's has come in confident. But he tries as either alignment.
I agree that I will inevitably townspew, though to be honest scum rarely have the game plan of trying to get rid of me early. Not sure why, probably just always bigger fish to fry.

@Myko, do you have other thoughts than just about me?

[Bell]

I can't control myself and really want a fire and lukewarm pairing, for science.

[Bell]

I posted and Bell didn't call me scum. Therefore, Bell is scum.

Are you scum this game?

[Bell]

Okay then do you have anything else to say other than what Noraa posted after reading the whole game? Ze usually draws a lot of scum reads early.

[Bell]

oh hang on it says here if someone asks you if you're scum it's the law that you have to tell them damn. yeah i am awoo etc

I propose we leave Cephrir out, unironically.

[Bell]

Fuck.

[Bell]

Why are you confused I asked that question, when I ask that question to someone at least once a game or more? Did you just forget?

[Bell]

I understand fire,
Cephrir is a beautiful gentleman and make no mistake.
He is funny, he is charming, he is warm, and I hear he gives the best bear hugs.

But he might be scum this game *Sunglasses*
He like, had a stress response and everything.
I could feel the cortisol from here.

@Fireisredsir: My hypothesis is that two birds of a feather will make sweet beautiful baby reads together.

[Bell]

And I think unless you're both scum together one of you is going to burn the other one out and get themselves identified trying.
But maybe not.
I dunno. It's a thought!

But I shouldn't be revealing my plans like this, even though it gets me town read. But like. My issue is not getting town reads. My issue is finding scum and I am *fucking bad* at that.

[Bell]

I uh cephrir yoj dont have a good model of my game. Every time i've been town you've been scum and scum knows im town. So assuming you are coming from a town perspective here which i do think you are town off these posts, my game is gonna look different bc you do not know my alignment

Is this antispew or just the weirdest take.

[Bell]

Ah, I need to shut up.

[Bell]

Dat's has come in confident. But he tries as either alignment.

what does this mean
do you have actual thoughts on anyone
give me your three strongest reads in any direction stat

No I have no actual thoughts on anyone that I feel are worth sharing.

Bell town.
Andante town.
MAYBE, MAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYBEEEEEEEEEEE Prism town.

I'm not proposing yet, because I want to pair up with town, but I'm not confident I can read the current selection yet.

[Bell]

Ydra is that avatar a dnd character?

[Bell]

Okay, maybe I should just take 2-4 at face value.
It's something I'd have done. But I'm pretty sure I'd piss people off if I posted like that since my scum game isn't up to snuff yet.

[Bell]

Ydra, would you mind pairing up with me?
As an extension of my fake Machiavellian thought process, I was going to write a diatribe of half formed ideas about how you prefer to be town read and how I'm not actually that.
I forgot what the word or concept is of giving away an advantage to appear sincere to another person. But it was that. It was a "I totally would have tried to manipulate you based on what I know of you and I think you'd prefer I town read you before asking as opposed to here where I'm barely leaning north of null" therefore I'm totally not scum.

But then I realized how many leaps in logic I'd have to make and it would betray my utter ignorance about how wrong I am in what I think works to manipulate you and, obviously I don't have a good scum game in the first place, so it feels pretty silly to think I'd actually be able to fool you correctly anyway.

[Bell]

Bell proposes to Ydrasse

[Bell]

bell, is lazy-scum-you more likely to just lurk or to post a "lol idk i don't really have reads" post? asking for a friend

I can spam as either alignment. But I have pretty major tells that give me away as town. I'm pretty sure I tripped a bunch of them already.
Being lazy is a Bell trait, I'm lazy just as a person. But I used to be a whole lot more paralyzed as scum and couldn't come up with stuff and I would often get unacceptably complacent as scum as long as I didn't have my feet to the fire, but when I did have my feet to the fire I'd freeze.

I've thought a lot about why my scum game sucks to very, very limited improvement.

[Bell]

bell i really appreciate you just opening up your skull and laying your entire brain on the table

it helps, really

Here's a town read.

[Bell]

that song is complicated, but i like it.

[Bell]

Shockingly OK with that

y are u ok w/ that?

ok, i only now realize that the post i thought was noraa saying "i wouldn't mind catching scum!ydra" was zir actually saying "i don't think i'd be able to catch scum!ydra"

ydra goes slightly up in my book, noraa slightly down, my reading comprehension goes straight into the trash

Anyone meta reading me, i'll say this again: its not gonna work.
On ydrasse, maybe i'd try to appeal to her but i qould never suggestdancing with her. She replaced into two of my acum elos and made me lose both. Theres no reason to place my entire endgame on ydras sr on me

actually maybe not? if the above is true, then i'm not sure why scum!noraa wouldn't use the "yeah i can't actually read ydra lol" as a way to get AWAY from pairing with her, and not TOWARDS pairing zirself with her

Nice touch if scum, I like the reversal and trying to see things from different angles. It's not enough.

this seems like a good pairing and one that i would be unlikely to vote out when we get to that stage, feelin p towny on both

Thanks for the info.

honestly i expected to get deathtunnelled for that post and im not sure what to make of that not happening

I have a lot of people to deathtunnel if im SRing everyone who SRs me. Too much work, cut me some slack i dont have that time

Yeah, but why aren't you SRing any of the people Sring you?

acknowledged
i would like to get a better read on both you and the rest of the gentlemen before making the choice

The cold shoulder has been utilized.

Never have really understood the rush to pair except that now I feel pressured to do it faster so I don't end up with someone less desirable simply because everyone else is rushing

This is what makes me endlessly paranoid about Cephrir. They just say relatable stuff that seems designed to be relatable and doesn't have much to do with their alignment. As for the introspection itself, I mean the answer is right there, in your heart of hearts. You just have to look at it with a dispassionate heart and ask yourself if you really don't know the answer or if you just don't like the answer you're coming up with. But it is a complicated question. But it's a psychological thing. It touches on a bunch of concepts related to it.

[Bell]

Did you post reasons for that or

[Bell]

Have u considered that I might just be a relateable son of a bitch

Posting relatable things shows a desire to conform and fit in, but not to eviscerate the enemy wolves. Everything has a reason. Jump through my hoops or get scum read while I ineffectually swat at you all game.

[Bell]

Uh. I’ll be extremely stubborn about dying if I think we’re both town no matter how many other players tell me otherwise. But that’s a problem for 3 years from now.

[Bell]

Oh, this is a pleasant surprise. Hi Mala.

[Bell]

The offer they made was obviously insincere and was made with the rather complex goal of forcing active players to post more and give away something AI. In order to survive the weeding process. They complained that I got paired up too early because I guess they've played with me before or thought I'd be a fairly easy sort under pressure than not under pressure. Uh. *useless comment*
...I don't really know what the rest of their plan was, my big hope was that they'd just leave the dance the second they had the chance taking enchant with them so I wouldn't have to think about it.
But who knows. I'm not really sure of what to make of their bread crumbing internal planning just to prove it exists either. Then again, that's my ultra paranoia talking. Maybe.

[Bell]

Just call me glass man.

[Bell]

Guess I'll do a read's list with zero explanation.
For fun.

town:
Bell
Jingle

Townish:
Andante

Town-like:
Prism
Ydra
Fireisredsir
Mala (there's a low bar for this one!)

Lukewarm:

Dunstrall
Datasi
Lukewarm,
Myko
Noraa
Enchant
Pookythemagicalbear

[Bell]

Cephrir is below Myko.

[Bell]

They posted 4 whole times in a row and it wasn't zero content.

[Bell]

this pairing is a whatever pairing to me

enchant could be town myko ... eh?

not the worst

I can’t really think of a worse pairing.

[Bell]

It literally just occurred to me that enchant was never dying this day phase. Because there are less ladies than gentleman.
There comes a time when I must reflect about my set up laziness and general lack of grounding in the games I’m in.
Today is not that day.

[Bell]

you don't townread any of them, what's the issue

Imagine a serious face gradient with myko on the far right side and enchant on the far left side.
————————————————————————

[Bell]

Noraa’s case on dunn is good enough for me.

[Bell]

I am a professional at getting a scum read and then tunneling so hard I end up in an alternate universe where they’re scum every time.

So I understand the pressure Noraa. But when you present yourself as the X-player whisperer you gotta deliver.
And you tried to deliver here and that’s somethin’

[Bell]

I am a professional at getting a scum read and then tunneling so hard I end up in an alternate universe where they’re town every time.

So I understand the pressure Noraa. But when you present yourself as the X-player whisperer you gotta deliver.
And you tried to deliver here and that’s somethin’

[Bell]

All I have to add to it for context is that dunnstral(not sure if they add for or against it)

Is that the last(and only) time I ran into Dunn scum they asked some very inane questions and made some very inane points. Which they did here until transitioning out of it for the most part. I also know that Dunn has joined a lot of dance games so I expect higher levels of investment for him as either alignment. Because he revealed the secret that the more interested he is in a game the more he posts in it.
And I guess because he keeps joining dance games he likes them very much.

Phone post. Woo.

[Bell]

I have some thoughts on some of the recent postings that I think I should sit on until I'm in a pt or facing being left behind.

This isn’t a good idea. My actual position on neighborhoods when you don’t know your partners alignment is the same as what I said in shakesphere mafia. I think most scum gain an advantage in neighborhoods versus main threads. For *points at arguments made in that game I can’t bother to repeat them all*

[Bell]

There are 3 angles there and you’re just insisting the third one doesn’t exist through sheer bluster.

Eh.

[Bell]

Third angle is that you’re scum and you’re putting your trust in Mala early to win points with her. Before trying to scoop her in your neighborhood with effort. Your thoughts are only moot because you either as town refuse to consider that your thoughts don’t help scum with their positioning which is (???) or you’re just posturing as scum without really thinking about it and hoping that confidence pushes you through the argument.

If Mala is town I don’t really think that will work because, uh, she’s malakittens. *waves hand* it’s possible she’s different than forever ago, but she’s a paranoid kitty and one of the more likely players to suddenly leave if they see red flags and you don’t dissuade them enough.

[Bell]

Oh.

[Bell]

I’m against arranged marriages on principal. Even though I think I would say the exact same thing if I were scum because ugh, self awareness is a curse sometimes. *burns out*

[Bell]

1. Noraa has been unique this game. A lot less aggri, a lot more organized, they gave themselves a time limit of 20 pages and I’m used to them just solving solving solving. So it feels out of character. I’m also not sure what to make of their instant collapse into self-recrimination about a dunn town flip, since they don’t actually do that when they’re town until after the flip and sometimes not even then if I remember correctly. It’s possible it’s designed just to look like they don’t know. On the other hand, they set themselves up as the Dunn expert so it’s a unique situation. I don’t think their credibility will be shot as much as they think, but I also don’t even know why I’m saying this because goddamn, if there’s one thing I don’t need more of this game it’s town reads.

[Bell]

1. Noraa has been unique this game. A lot less aggri, a lot more organized, zir gave themselves a time limit of 20 pages and I’m used to them just solving solving solving. So it feels out of character. I’m also not sure what to make of zir instant collapse into self-recrimination about a dunn town flip, since zir don’t actually do that when they’re town until after the flip and sometimes not even then if I remember correctly. It’s possible it’s designed just to look like zir don’t know. On the other hand, zir set themselves up as the Dunn expert so it’s a unique situation. I don’t think zir credibility will be shot as much as zir thinks, but I also don’t even know why I’m saying this because goddamn, if there’s one thing I don’t need more of this game it’s town reads.

[Bell]

Noraa can you explain your change in attitude and general approach this game?
What’s the game plan? Why were you more mature this game than usual? What changed in how you decided to respond to people?
Why do you seem a little bit sad at the beginning of the game? Why did you delay your solving? Why did you try to present yourself as patient at the beginning of the game? Why did you ask for a truce with Andante? What do you think of Ydrasse right now?

I’m not sure if any of these questions will help me reach the right conclusions but it’s worth a shot.

[Bell]

do noraa and dunn have history and is ze usually able to read them well?

Yes. They’ve been consistently good about reading them. I have no idea if it’s luck. Given their reasoning has been down right terrible sometimes. But they were still right anyway. So *wiggles hands*

[Bell]

I mean, I already explained why I find dunn scum plausible.
Primarily because while he always jumps on the complain train when I get town binned as a word of caution.
Some of his questions have down right sucked and I associate that specifically with scum Dunn because he did that one whole time and thus it is always true from now until the end of time.

[Bell]

Did I explain the fire tr,
Basically they just remind me of unwnd and their propensity to worry about who is and isn’t scum and their relief at me brain spilling seemed well timed. also sort of feel like they’re conf biasing realistically though the initial town bin was very ???.
I think someone mentioned Fire approaching the opening like scum them would approach it. Which I sort of agree about because in my last dance game I tried very hard to romanticize it like I thought I would as town, being basically excited to pair up with someone and solve.
I did not do a good job of it.

And strangely enough here I’m very much not feeling that excitement but it might just be because I’ve felt down over the spring vacation.

[Bell]

I’m not alt guessing. I’m just applying what sort of worked with reading another player to you. If you’re even an alt.
Also, that read was a whole lot more measured than what I thought I was going to write when it started it. Paranoia really does poison everything.

[Bell]

Sorry you’re having a bad day ceph. I kind of got that from your “I’m not gunna post today (because life sucks).” Post.

[Bell]

Sounds fair noraa. Thanks. You’re doin a good job if you’re scum this game.

[Bell]

tbh i was moving in a town luke direction but i feel like 657 serves absolutely no purpose other than to get townread and i don't love it

All I do is make posts to get town read, but you never give me a hard time about that?
Also, I am adjacent asking people to put their whole thought process from pen to paper. So.

[Bell]

Don’t like that dunn left me out of the people pushing him.
That seems deliberate.

[Bell]

I made two larger posts that basically say the same thing. When you make inane posts, ask inane questions I think you’re scum and I have pushed it.

Lukewarm considering every single projected model isn’t the same because the whole thing collapses when you get flipped and it doesn’t make his argument stronger or weaker. I’m not sure why you think it does.

[Bell]

Do you think that I give softer stances when I am scum compared to when I am town, Bell?

I’ve been pretty clear that I think you might be scum independently of what Noraa is saying because I haven’t touched on that argument at all. But I’m not really here to argue. That’s for scum to do(what the hell am I saying?)

[Bell]

It’s true, I love hiding behind people. You should have seen me when I was 5. I was a classic skirt hider.

[Bell]

That sort of huge comparison list, while fruitful in that it shows that Dunn is right in that Luke is pushing Dunn quite hard and comparing it to mine. Defeats its purpose because Dunn also does the huge counter arguments thing as scum. Which I imagine must be extremely annoying from his perspective if he’s town because he’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.

*cough* I’m sorry.

[Bell]

Dunn also does the huge counter arguments thing as scum.

What do I do as town?

You get sassy.

[Bell]

No. But you’re a lot more dismissive and there’s a personal quality to it. There’s a low key “you’re an idiot” vibe to your responses as town. while I feel like you’re more sincere at addressing the “arguments” when you’re scum.

…not sure why you asked that question specifically to cephrir. But yes to my knowledge, I never addressed Nora’s points. I basically sort of kind of but reluctantly think noraa might (see all the qualifiers I’m using) have a good gut instinct on you. That they fill up with bad rationalizations afterwords. I think I’ve been consistent in that regard if you pay close attention.

[Bell]

Huh, you’re not wrong on second look Red, but it looks more sarcastic to me than sassy.

[Bell]

Classic self fulfilling prophecy talk right there. Your overall emotional approach to this still confuses me, but I mean.
Mm. I can tell you’re getting your claws out and trying to drag Dunnstral into the abyss now. Which shows investment. Mixed signals Nornor.

[Bell]

but it looks more sarcastic to me than sassy.

Good enough for me

VOTE: Dunnstral

VOTE: Vote Dunnstral
I will shove you off the boat on sheer principal you know. Don’t play chicken with me. I’m loco.

[Bell]

Dunnstral is in blatant survival mode.
Don’t get too close, he’ll take you hostage with his claw hook.

[Bell]

His flip is switched.

An aside that I hope to sneak past people with an itty bitty post but I have to say it anyway.
Fire continues to go up and
Andante scum claimed when they stopped posting after they got theirs.

>_> <_<
I’m going to go take a break.

[Bell]

I’m just teasing him for getting a hard hat and entering siege mode.

[Bell]

None. Survival mode is a thing we all have that is separate from alignment…
Sort of. Well actually is sort of depends on the person. But all I’m really getting is that you’ve turtled into hard head mode. I don’t want to engage with you because it could go badly. Not for me on an alignment level, but like, on a personal one. I get antsy when people start to act differently from an emotional perspective.

I said you counter with more dismissive arguments when you’re town instead of going into “I will quote every post I can see to bury this argument into the ground because it’s wrongo and this person is wrong and I must stop them because it is my mission to correct every person of every misstatement may this world remain pure and holy and free of contradiction. “ -Dunnstrall scum.

[Bell]

I suppose now that I’ve broken out all the meta I have on dunnstral scum and what I took away from that single interaction they must be town because my reads are garbage.

[Bell]

I at least want to think this is town. It feels town.

Who do you want to eliminate?

[Bell]

I at least want to think this is town. It feels town.

Who do you want to eliminate?

Noraa

I don’t see a reason for scum Noraa to act this way.
Nobody is responding well to zir self doubt but Zir keeps doing it anyway.
There’s no reflection or tuning to manipulate.

Dunnstral’s requests for proof is a joke.

[Bell]

I have a cop guilty on you Dunnstral.
Dunnstral: “prove it”

Like, do you really think that Noraa’s observation requires Zir to go out and quote however many posts is acceptable and then break out a pie chart. Few players do that, and the one time I’ve seen it done recently was by Pooky and he was scum arguing for Mastina town who was town.

[Bell]

Also, I’ve never seen you try to prove anything in a game of mafia so it feels hypocritical for you to ask someone to put in the effort that I’ve never seen you bother to do yourself.

[Bell]

i have an idea. it's slightly dumb but think about it. If we leave me, dunn and datisi unpaired, then me dying would confscum dunn. it's clear dunn is a greater asset to town than me.

if dunn dies, well that would mean i was wrong on them.

and datisi cannot die since datisi is the only lady.

i know ze already nvm'd this post, but the bolded sentence is making me really want to leave noraa behind

actually kinda the whole thing

maybe im dumb but i don't understand how this is looking at things from the perspective of zir being uninformed town

This just looks like clumsy wording to me. The whole structure of Zir sentences is broken and missing pieces/contextual clues.

[Bell]

I find it immaterial because I care more about what Noraa feels than what they say. As I think they just rationalize the end result.
I think you’d just accuse them of cheery picking if they actually went out and did it and you’d bring up a million arguments through context. You’ve lived through those game and can easily muddy the waters even if ze bothered.

Yes, I noticed you didn’t argue my specific points, but I figured you were just doing that because the goal isn’t to get me dead, it’s for you not to get dead and also, it would be awkward for you to argue every point I make, especially after making that point which would demonstrate a live example of you quibbling over everything. Instead you say it’s true now, so, uh, I was wrong there. Or you repositioned yourself. I don’t know which. *shrug*

I feel like I’m arguing just for the sake of arguing.

[Bell]

Also, I’ve never seen you try to prove anything in a game of mafia

This is simply untrue

I could’ve forgotten but I really did try to think of when you tried to prove something and came up empty. Sometimes you’d make mechanical arguments that made the attempt to demonstrate why something was more or less likely, but you were almost always wrong and there was always a lot of guesswork in there.

Outside of that, yeah. I can’t remember an example.

[Bell]

I just read over that and don’t get it because:
1. Mathblade wasn’t a traitor.
2. You didn’t substantiate that” thou who has smelt it dealteth it” with any proof whatsoever.
3. You tried to substantiate that they were “reactive” by choosing a bunch of quotes and were arguing that actually “they were the desperate ones” but didn’t substantiate that either.
4. You argued that you were writing all of that to show what you were paying attention to these posts and that this was your internal process going forward. But you don’t actually prove that this is what you were thinking at the time. You just quoted them and asserted it was and explains your mentioned behavior.

[Bell]

I don’t get how I’m conf biasing by including counter arguments to my arguments.
That’s basic writing.

[Bell]

Well duh, I’m just pointing out that you didn’t prove anything. Of course it’s not interesting. It’s not interesting to me either. I only engaged with it because you quoted it and brought it here. Real proof is a pain in the ass to generate and you didn’t prove anything in the post you said you tried to prove stuff in. You just asserted that this was your view point.

I genuinely don’t follow Yggdrasil one. I said what I said there because of my experience with you in guns and roses. And I was wrong because, actually you weren’t pushing back you just thought white rose was scum. But that’s with the benefit of hindsight and knowing your alignment which I didn’t know then and even if I did I’d probably have misinterpreted you there anyway.

I feel as either alignment you would try to muddy the waters on an argument that you probably actually disagree with. So, I don’t know what to say to that. You’re asking zir for proof, but even if ze presented it you’d just argue it down. *shrug* you seem to think I’m calling you scum for it, when I’m actually just saying it would be pointless either way.

[Bell]

Actually a cop guilty isn’t proof either because you can’t share the mod communication. That was the joke. You could only prove it legally by flipping the person. But you couldn’t prove it to others. Even if you flipped them and they flipped scum. You still could have faked a cop guilty because nobody but you knows your role because, again, only you know your role per the rules.

[Bell]

Okay. Whew. I’m glad I won the pedantry pageant. You may proceed.

[Bell]

3. You tried to substantiate that

Yeah, I did. And I'm asking Noraa to

substantiate

their claims too

Changing the word from prove to substantiate doesn't change what is going on here. I think substantiate is a better word, your complaints here seem to be that I didn't have mechanical proof a la cop guilty or similar in that game but it's clear that what I did there is what I am asking noraa to do here

This doesn’t sound like a joke to me? But, it’s midnight. I’ll ignore it.

[Bell]

I wasn’t criticizing, sorry if I came off that way. I was teasing you while chewing on whether the roboticism was AI or not.

Er, it doesn’t meet the definition of an argument for a cop. It’s proof to the cop. But it’s not proof to anybody else because there’s no evidence.

I sort of wasted the last hour of my life. I have nobody to blame but myself.
Good night all. May you dance with the one of your dreams.

[Bell]

people want a ceph and fire pair?? fire is mafia... I'm pretty sure ceph isn't

You’re mafia, I’m pretty sure. Or you’re extremely anti town for no reason which sent my TR of you to the Stone Age.

[Bell]

Yeah, no anybody who says they’re gunna stop playing mid game and then actually stops posting when huge walls are exchanged has zero solve motivation.

[Bell]

Would Lukewarm actually doubt you when you said you had RL stuff to deal with.
My policy has always been “just believe them, because the other option is ew”.

[Bell]

Question for Fire, I know love is blind but what do you think of cephrir so far? In terms of gameplay.

[Bell]

why did enchant wait till pressured to accept? like, I'd have completely understood not wanting to pair.. like "I DON'T TR ENCHANT" "ENCHANT DANCE WITH ME" that's just.. if myko is town, myko leaves first chance they get.... so why would enchant want to pair with myko?? makes no sense to me, but then the pressure and enchant is like "i accept" like, what??

does that make enchant scum for you? because accepting a dance with a partner who outright doesn't townread you feels like a very shitty strategy, especially when your game-gender is in the minority

I'm not certain actually, but there's something about that I really don't like, and that pair could honestly be S/S and I think that's the best explanation for why people are acting like they are here?? idk, I think I'll just be going back

to plan of doing nothing till everyone else pairs up then dealing with it

[Bell]

Yeah, but that’s a bad idea and you should take care of yourself and just say “sorry everyone, I’m sick I’m going to focus on that, will post feeling better”

[Bell]

Yeah, but that’s a bad idea and you should take care of yourself and just say “sorry everyone, I’m sick I’m going to focus on that, will post feeling better”

why do people have to announce here when they're sick?

I suppose you could just not post or say anything. I looked. Back and didn’t see you ever mention that you were busy, going to get busy, or may otherwise be engaged you seemed to present it as a strategy and less due to personal reasons.

Uh, you may very well have the most self-defeating play style on the planet if your goal is not to garner attention.
You’re also, just selling the benefits to a andante shaped hole in the universe, but it sounds like if you weren’t busy you’d have kept on posting is the implication here.

[Bell]

Yes, poor you. Just defenseless you could be killed at anytime.

[Bell]

Yeah, but that’s a bad idea and you should take care of yourself and just say “sorry everyone, I’m sick I’m going to focus on that, will post feeling better”

why do people have to announce here when they're sick?

I suppose you could just not post or say anything. I looked. Back and didn’t see you ever mention that you were busy, going to get busy, or may otherwise be engaged you seemed to present it as a strategy and less due to personal reasons.

Uh, you may very well have the most self-defeating play style on the planet if your goal is not to garner attention.
You’re also, just selling the benefits to a andante shaped hole in the universe, but it sounds like if you weren’t busy you’d have kept on posting is the implication here.

WHY DO I SPECIFICALLY HAVE TO POST MY LIFE SCHEDULE... It's not even relevant, so I just say nothing? like, unless I have to go "hey yall I'm crazy busy every tuesday and thursday" at the start of every single game... I'm normally here every other day, so why is it a problem being gone those 2 days? friday I had an exam then got drunk, like, I'd rather be here when I can fully engage... you "looking back to see if I sad anything about being gone" like, why not see why I call fire maf???? cause fire is not town... still not town. that has not changed.

Where do I even begin with this. Oh, actually, this is more manageable on second look.
1. I was explaining it. From my perspective. If you don’t give a rl reason for things, I won’t know about them will I?
2. ….I can pay attention to more than one thing at once, but you basically saying “don’t focus on me, focus on the person I think is maf believe IT!” Is kind of just meh. I feel meh about this.

[Bell]

Yes, Noraa even started the game off by saying they were trying to get less invested in games.

[Bell]

Though noraa gets plenty invested in scum games.

I still prefer Dunn even though Noraa has been weird this game.

[Bell]

Never played with scum luke. Don’t see what everyone else is seeing. Don’t see how Lukewarm trying to brain dump is scummy.

[Bell]

Raise your hand if you have ever felt bad about catching scum through dayplay

‘’)/

[Bell]

I was just joking. But I’ve certainly written a “poor x if they got caught because y”

[Bell]

I am interpreting 1079 as a scumclaim. I will be completely shocked if that is somehow a legitimate thought process, and it will probably be the first time I ever blame someone else for my own wrong vote.

No, clearly thinking that him ghosting the game makes me inclined to think that he is town has no bearing on this game, where that action did not happen.

I barely posted until I got accused of being mafia and people were angling to leave me out of the dance, including you.

So you're wrong, this did happen and you were scumreading me while it was happening.

You know this is a bad thing right.

[Bell]

What ever happened to Mykonian anyway.
+++ there have been a lot of people who have just disappeared the second they got a partner and if there weren’t so many of them I’d want them dead on total principal.

[Bell]

I don’t know what to say to that Dunnstral, in that game he pointed out that you’re a little bit less active as town. But the argument in that game was just challenging the premise that activity determined your alignment, but even in that game, Luke never endorsed the idea that you were more likely town if you posted less. Only that he didn’t agree with someone else on the premise, I doubt he would act on that information when he never directly stated he believed it himself.

[Bell]

In that game he didn’t.
He did do it in this thread though, which feels like a tactical mistake. The whole paragraph and that post in general is tortured. I want you all to go to sleep though. And in the morning I’d like to ask Lukewarm to try to restructure what he meant or what he was getting at or if he’s trying to twist himself into knots because he doesn’t want to admit to a contradiction, didn’t think it through, or just posted that way because he’s getting frustrated.

Though, I am being somewhat generous.
I still think your defense is scummy Dunnstral.

[Bell]

It really is just scorched earth defense, it’s also referential to other games in a way I don’t usually witness you approaching other people’s arguments as town. You usually keep stuff in thread without going out and digging up meta, but here it’s just the opposite.
In regular world context it’s bad that you’ve spent most of the game trying to live and very little time trying to find and kill scum on your own without burning charcoal on your feet.

[Bell]

He literally said:

BUT, in this older game, Luke said "Dunn ghosted this game, and I think he is likely town for it"

Yes. I just said he said words bad.

[Bell]

I feel sort of stupid this game. Or rather I’m getting deja vu to when Cabd called me densd Which is honestly, every game now that I think about it. But it’s true so it’s hard to complain.

I just want to see lukewarm take another crack at it before making judgments because I can see his patience wearing thin and starting to make mistakes. I’m just not sold they’re scum mistakes.

[Bell]

That one’s more inline with what I would expect town lukewarm to say, except for the numbers bit. I thought he might think it beneath him as not elegant enough.

Also, I did wanna say I appreciate all the effort posts. This has been a fun game for me all things considered. I haven’t read everything as close as I would like. But still. Thanks.

Good night. Work tomorrow.

[Bell]

Oh. That’s okay then. At myko losing internet. I remember reading that and then forgot.
*shrug* on dunnstral pull. That was the elimination I wanted and that’s no secret. But oh well.

[Bell]

Won't have to use the chain hook tonight

I think Dats just made a mistake.

[Bell]

On my own null to weak lean town.
With other people’s endorsements Lean town.
It doesn’t matter though. I’m probably tunneled now.

[Bell]

I want you to die to see what your alignment is.

[Bell]

Yes?

[Bell]

Sure, when I get shot please pick up ydra, dat’s.
Thanks.

[Bell]

Not really but more than you.

[Bell]

the "i think" is more bc im not sure if i should. but i do

That’s very preemptive. You made this judgment within like, what, 8 hours since Dunn was safe? Compare this to prism and I who have been here the entire time.

[Bell]

Okay

[Bell]

No offense taken, as long as I’m entertained, that’s enough.

[Bell]

I’m very scummy this game. Ydrasse is not wrong.
Now, obviously since I’m scum I would argue to the ends of the earth for ydra being town.
Because that’s my win con.

*confused at where fire was going with that one*

No comment on the rep. I echo what Dunn said. AI, but not sure which way. But she doesn’t have a particular reluctance to rep as early alignment.

HI FB.

[Bell]

Dunn is cracking my SR of him. But I immediately ask you forget this if FB flips town.
It never happened.

[Bell]

Noraa should live

I’m very scummy this game. Ydrasse is not wrong.

It's okay Bell, I think you're town

Malakittens. Please post. *beeps*

[Bell]

Don’t ask me why those two are quoted.
To note, I’m on the lukewarm should live side of this equation.

[Bell]

Mine

[Bell]

I’m impressed that mykonian is still scum reading me.

[Bell]

I’m at work please leave a message.
Also, sad face at Noraa/FB.

[Bell]

In a shocking display of consistency I’m back to wanting to kill dunn and whoever partnered with Dunn.

[Bell]

Oh, it was datasi.
Do these posts count toward my 200 limit. Also my limit is about to be renewed. Bless this turning to a new page.

[Bell]

Lmao. She called it.

[Bell]

At work sorry. Can’t comment wasn’t much in there
She told me to think about who night killed her if she got night killed.

Also yay town pair. I didn’t fuck up.
Also boo. Dead yddra. Now I have an *additional* opportunity to fuck up.

[Bell]

Can I propose to multiple players?

[Bell]

Or if I’m refused can I propose to another within the time limit?

[Bell]

Whelp.
+1 for prism partnering.

[Bell]

First I’m hearing you think prism isn’t town.

[Bell]

My top choice is for you to pair with datisi

But that's what the scum want me to think.

[Bell]

Who is the scum team again Andante?

Prism + Fireisred + Lukewarm?

[Bell]

Uh, they outright said you were maf like 10 pages ago.

[Bell]

Pressing X.

[Bell]

Who are your scum partners Andante?

[Bell]

Ah yes, cephrir the towniest person to match with.

[Bell]

Why is Bell automatically town for the ydra kill?

I was already strongly town reading Bell before the Ydra kill.

But also, I doubt that Bell, who is very Not Confident in their scum abilities, would want jump straight to putting himself in this position where he would have to lock himself into a 1v1, more townie player wins.

Ugh, this is so on the mark it hurt.

[Bell]

Sorry >.<

nah it just gives me more motivation to improve my scum game and take bigger risks and perhaps even cut my losses and bus a buddy one day.

[Bell]

There’s really only so many layers of cheekiness you can go before it becomes implausible and you’re just town.

[Bell]

It’s novel that you’re openly town reading me this game luke. I think the last time was shakesphere. You held out a little later this time before saying it out right. Why did you decide to say it this time?

[Bell]

I'm waiting for Prism to post and then I'm grabbing Prism, Lukewarm, fire, Or datasi.

[Bell]

I thought about grabbing enchant and then leaving with Myko, but I think that was just my inner troll.

[Bell]

Can vote them out the regular way so that I can get to the sortable people.

[Bell]

The what on the what now.

[Bell]

Nothing to say about Andante twisting themselves into a pretzel?

[Bell]

I was asking fire. Since they usually have something to say.

[Bell]

Mykonian do you plan to leave with enchant?

[Bell]

I’m mostly just surprised she seemed to act nonchalant about a prism pairing then shaded them while never expressing suspicion or dissatisfaction before that point. In addition they more or less mischaracterized you. Not to mention prism has been pretty consistently townie.

I expect andante to scum read everybody at some point. But I don’t understand where they’re coming from and their reasoning seems
More broken than usual.

[Bell]

Why did you pair with cephrir? Have you played with them many times before?

[Bell]

no, ive just seen him around a bit and liked his vibes. i was also curious to see how he would respond to me basically requesting a dance before he had even posted. jury is still out on whether i feel like i was able to sort him at all based on his response

our dance has been pretty boring so far though tbh ):

Oh. Kay.

[Bell]

Cephrir was a good pick in hindsight. He’ll never leave you unless STD replaces in.

[Bell]

Not sure how I feel about the no meta investigation on cephrir.
They’re hard to read, not really an exception this game. You’ve meta’d elsewhere, no sure why you didn’t lose patience or consistency and try something else involving cephrir. Well, it wasn’t like that was the only fire you had cooking though.

[Bell]

Both replace outs have been pretty shit and I am judging.

Just play the fucking game.

Given limited information. it is impossible to judge people fairly in this matter.
Bad take.

[Bell]

Sure. Enchant. I’ll pair up with myko if you don’t start playing the game, providing reads and making a good faith effort.

[Bell]

Sure. Enchant I’ll pair up with myko if you don’t start playing the game, providing reads and making a good faith effort.

[Bell]

K, I humbly request you give a shit and share your honest thoughts about who you think is and isn’t mafia and why.

[Bell]

What does your position have to do with sharing your thoughts on whether another player is scum or town and why you think that.

[Bell]

Ugh, I don’t even disagree. I’m definitely leaning that way but then I’ll be paired with mykonian and to say we’re a terrible pair is putting it lightly.

[Bell]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13309638

107-270, 1013

Sorry, what is this for?

[Bell]

Dug through. Noraa was very sure dunn was scum, and led his day 1 miselimination.

Both were town.

I believe he is combating the idea that Noraa is good at reading him, since Mala appears to be hanging her dunn read on noraas

It would be fair to state that this dunnstral is 2.5 to 3 standard deviations from the norm.

[Bell]

Um. I’ll just state that dunnstral’s response, activity/etc are all vastly different to the response they’ve had here.

[Bell]

Yes, but there’s also the context that Noraa was aware of that outcome while playing here and still pushed Dunn.

[Bell]

Thanks ceph scum.

[Bell]

Hell, it probably reinforced zir read.

[Bell]

Fair.

[Bell]

Dunn and Cephrir are town

Sigh why is cephrir town?

[Bell]

I want bell to propose to me and Prism slot gone tbh

No. You’re gunna have to carry that weight.

[Bell]

Okay, I do not remember cephrir saying anything really good or solving in this game.

[Bell]

*slaps cephrir with a fish*
Prophetic quip fish tax

[Bell]

If you’re 100% sure your partner is mafia then just leave.

[Bell]

I want bell to propose to me and Prism slot gone tbh

No. You’re gunna have to carry that weight.

why is that a hard no?

Because I disagree. You missed my posts where I said I think prism is/was town.

[Bell]

If you’re 100% sure your partner is mafia then just leave.

well I'm also 100% sure I'm town, so like, if it's possible to just yeet my partner, I'll take that option... whatever you want me dead? I don't even care, I think your deadline to pair is soon anyways

Deal wif it.

[Bell]

I’m waiting for datasi to get back and the. I’ll just start trying to move the discussion productively to who I should pair with.

[Bell]

For now I’m just trying to sort.

[Bell]

Mostly because their entire persentation of themselves has an air of conceit and contempt and Enchant is an obvious example of the type of player myko would murder if they’re trying to appear consistent?

[Bell]

why do I even try...

Doggo, are you being for real right now. Because like, what.
What are you even saying or doing or thinking. I don’t even know what to say to this. What?

What