Mini 2270: Spring Fling!

[Noraa]

If no other gentlemen are good at reading Ydra, i would like to neighborize them!!

[Noraa]

I could also be very spicy and ask Enchant but i feel like Ydra and I never get along when we're both town so what better pt than that? worst case scenario i get pocketed by scum ydra but shrug whatever it'll be an experience at least >:3

[Noraa]

ok so bell is town for posting on page 1 right

[Noraa]

*pokes Noraa*
Hi.

oh my god telepathy

[Noraa]

*sign languaging I AM TOWN*
it'll be our secret ok

[Noraa]

I could also be very spicy and ask Enchant but i feel like Ydra and I never get along when we're both town so what better pt than that? worst case scenario i get pocketed by scum ydra but shrug whatever it'll be an experience at least >:3

You're giving me maffy vibes right now lol, like this nervous "haha I have to pair up. asap!" feels like you're trying to rush to partner with ydra, like, before there's no options, cause "we never get along as town" like, why is that the pairing you instantly want to go for?

scum me so charismatic. also town ydra so good at reading me like you dont even know. i'd be too busy freaking out that ydra was in the game lmao.
unless you think we're scum together, which like ok lets talk about that later in the game. gamestate will be clearer then anyways

[Noraa]

Bell also isn't exactly screaming town right now lmaoooo this is great

paranoid andante

[Noraa]

*pat pat*
i wont randomly tunnel you this game peace offering?

[Noraa]

ydra is town you're the one I'm not thinking is town?

yeah i think i'd die before ever offering to neighborize town ydra if i was scum lmfao. ydra would literally just leave the game on the spot

[Noraa]

Did Noraa just decline a conflict of words

yeh

[Noraa]

Honestly maybe we just quarantine me/Ydrasse and make us policyleave if we ever get to ELO, two birds one stone.

wait but :[ i want ydra!!!

[Noraa]

im a good policy too if it ever comes to it i suppose

[Noraa]

prism seems most like "ehhh I don't use hood, just know that" while Noraa is like "I NEED YDRA HOOD!!!"

ydra has good reads hehe >:3

[Noraa]

much better than my own at least

[Noraa]

gg this is too easy, and 3rd scum is someone who hasn't talked

its like page 2

[Noraa]

"we both fight as town. I wanna be in a hood with her"

yep! we dont tend to get along as town in that i tunnel ydra and then ydra cant read me as town. but if we just skip that whole process and become besties all is solved lololol. or at least thats how it worked in my head

[Noraa]

gg this is too easy, and 3rd scum is someone who hasn't talked

its like page 2

and?

and i just offered you a peace offering!

[Noraa]

"we both fight as town. I wanna be in a hood with her"

yep! we dont tend to get along as town in that i tunnel ydra and then ydra cant read me as town. but if we just skip that whole process and become besties all is solved lololol. or at least thats how it worked in my head

so you're just auto assuming ydra town? then you're saying you'll think about going back on that read??

not like i would catch scum ydra anyways, why not

[Noraa]

It's kind of funny to me that Andante and I have the BM-Noraa dynamic. If I dont SR her, she SRs me.

[Noraa]

Bell posting at all towny. Andante probably town as well.

[Noraa]

well think about it, if you cant read someone but you know town them has amazing reads, whats the worst that can happen? you're never going to be able to read them anyways; might as well pray they are town and have their reads in a pt.

BM and I have never mutually TRed each other like ever

[Noraa]

Bell posting at all towny.

Is this the bar we've set for him?

it seems to work alright tbh. like it worked in control and Cabd approves of it as far as im concerned.

[Noraa]

dunn very towny. taking back andante tr for a little. i must throw it back in the pot for some more brewing.

[Noraa]

well about bell, its not posting at all. but i think the frequency of bell postings right now is pretty deecently town indicative

[Noraa]

I dont really think any of bells posts are TOWNY but i do still think the posting frequency is a good look since everyone who's played with bell knows they hate scum. also im not into being paranoid of bell because that's an annoying feeling and bell and i will just bouce SRs off each other the whole game if we choose that path @_@

[Noraa]

I dont really think any of bells posts are TOWNY

agreed. they not towny at all lol and when conversations get real, bell got quiet

hmm. i mean bell kind of does that. also im speaking from the perspective of like being extremely paranoid of bell the entire control game

[Noraa]

good look since everyone who's played with bell knows they hate scum

The tells Bell is tripping up are newb scum tells.

So you'd say that would fit the bill then?

bell like REALLY hates scum. to the point where most people who know bell meta know alignment is linked to activity

[Noraa]

right now i don't like luke or fire much

in a game sense

I agree with luke. but I have SRed Lukewarm every single game so the SR feels a little iffy. Like I know Lukewarm tends to SR me when I'm town and I tend to SR them too when we're both town. But that SR felt like a weak "replication" of what generally happens
anyways idk im not confident at all and it doesnt matter because lukewarm becomes obvtown with time if town.

[Noraa]

it's an opener i can't really sort let alone being responsible for a pt to sort it in without unraveling a lot of mental knots

ok i understand that. the main reason i wanted it was just that if you happen to be town and came around to a TR on me, i felt like our pt would be a very awesome one to have. like my reads are generally bad but yours are good and in general pt dynamics between two town who TR each other are just good.

i also felt like offering to dance with you would be something that scum me would just never do and i felt like it would show a level of trust that scum me would never be willing to place in town you (again assuming you are town)

all bets were placed on town ydra and while that may seem unreasonable, its a gamble that i felt was worth it so it's what i chose. this is super explainy but that was my thought process. it doesnt make sense in every way but it doesn't really have to to be real.

[Noraa]

If I'd have to call it now I'd eliminate Bel

why

[Noraa]

I think people should pair up based on their posting frequency. It doesnt make sense to pair a high frequency poster with a low frequency poster. it would be "wasting" the high frequency posts because pts can make sorting easier a lot of the time.

[Noraa]

Is this something that you thought about before the day started, or was this your gut reaction to the day opening and Ydra's opening posts?

it was a gut reaction for sure. that post was me trying to explain that gut reaction in hindsight and put it into words.

[Noraa]

I know im playing with fire but me asking ydrasse to dance vs prism asking andante.
one is extremely scummy and the equivalent of "anyone want to dance?"
but the other is like apparently so towny that the dance is happening.

how does that make sense

[Noraa]

they are unfair and andante is doing everything to justify a SR on me. that's my point.
and there isn't a clear difference. page 7 is no different from page 1. Prism explicitly states that they think they can sort andante long term. if so, why not wait a little more to propose a dance?

in my opinion, prism could be town but i see a lot more scum motivation in offering to dance with andante on day 7 than i see town motivation. i dont mean this in a offensive way but andante's reads are so heavily dependent on the other person's read on her that i absolutely think scum prism would see that immediately and go aha this looks like an easy pocket in a pt. is it also risky since andante could end up heavily SRed later on? yes, but scum prism has enough skill to protect her i think.
im saying all of this assuming prism is a good scum player which i have no clue if they are but i know prism is pretty experienced so they probs do have a decent scum game.

[Noraa]

If no other gentlemen are good at reading Ydra, i would like to neighborize them!!

cause ydra, this feels exacly like last game where scum me like entered yelling "i'll dance with anyone"

[Noraa]

but that's something for someone who struggles to get townread to exploit

i dont know if i agree with that. andante seems like an optimal shield, if you will, for an experienced scum player. but anyways this is all very moonlogic-y and im not really convinced myself. i just dont really know how to deal with the way andante creates reads. it's kind of a whole maze of a minefield and I get to the edge and just go ok now what the heck do i do

[Noraa]

shield in survivor terms idk how to translate that to mafia but it sort of makes sense in my head O_o

[Noraa]

it's kind of a whole maze of a minefield

once there's a PT minefield goes to the PT, soooo I guess don't really worry about it? idk, I do a lot of thinking out loud, say first thing on my mind, and that's kinda that, and hey, I'll hit 200 posts then completely shut up for all yall

prism and you will dance through the minefield :0 I hope your pt is all town because that would be interesting to read postgame

[Noraa]

dunn gives mixed vibes this game. very strange stuff. it's .. interesting. i dont know. perhaps i've lost my spark for reading them finally.

[Noraa]

certain posts ping me badly but others ping good. im going to wait until page 20 and then iso and see what happens. i dont really care which gentleman gets left behind atm as long as it's not dunn or me.

[Noraa]

ftr ydrasse, im still very interested in dancing with you, if you ever change your mind i guess.

[Noraa]

if it's a definite no, i do want to get my dance with my second pick started immediately so no one can steal >:[ so let me know please!

[Noraa]

@noraa, if you want to dance with ydrasse so bad, why didn't you propose to her yet? also why the andante townread?

i dont know how to answer to why i didnt propose. i just didnt, like im not sure what you want me to say. i do badly want to dance with her and if she gives a yes, i 100% propose but i just havent proposed. like i suppose you can think of it like this: in a normal game, i typically vote fewer times than other people (i feel like in a mini, i generally only vote like maybe 5 times the full game). why? i dont know.

[Noraa]

"i'm purposefully trying to change my meta"

i agree with this actually but also want to state that i am also changing my meta this game lmfao. i dont think i'll be unreadable by meta but i am trying something different that i will tell my pt buddy if they are someone with a lot of meta on me.

i will talk a lot in pt. currently my top choices are you and fireisredsir. I really want someone who will talk to me a lot. Hopefully it will help me sort them and the rest of the game and if not, at least it'll be fun

[Noraa]

ok, am caught up

i consciously townread dunn and ydrasse, and i subconsciously townread noraa, jury's still out on a few other reads and i'll let you know when they return

don't have townpings on a lot of people which is making me see more red than there is, pls step it up whoever is town k thx bye

datisiiiiii will you dance with me?

[Noraa]

The game moved on already :/ So should you.

The first line is a strawman. Andante was on fireisred at that moment. You are being really defensive here. Page 7 clearly is different from page 1. It's early, yes. It's not the same.

this is not an accurate representation of why i posted that but okay.

[Noraa]

i was identified as someone who needs to be handled for them personally and for the benefit of a team

i am almost always one of the last scum standing and you have made me lose like two scum elos in a row. why would i EVER give you the chance to take me out of the game in that situation off of your own reads alone?

and why would i dance with you solely to take you out of the game? that would be a pretty bad reason to pair with someone on day 1 as mafia.

[Noraa]

which is why noraa’s opener is dubious to me because it feels like i was identified as someone who needs to be handled for them personally and for the benefit of a team. i also think they would not play the long game with me if they were mafia and would just leave pretty fast (whether or not that’d be a good strategy is meh but i think that impulsiveness fits)

i don't get how this follows from the first paragraph

like, if you're good at identifying zir as mafia, how is zir angling to dance with you like, a problem (correct me if any of those pronouns are incorrectly used btw)

also uh, mafia leaving the dance voluntarily is? good?

oh my >:3

[Noraa]

like i guess i just feel like offering my trust shows that i am town, and if you TR me and are town (as i said, all bets were placed on you town), life is better i guess? anyways ydra if you dont want to leave the game soon and are good at reading dunn, i wouldnt recommend that pair. im unsure on this at the moment but im getting a lot of medium strength gut pings that dunn is scum here. i dont think dunn is going to flip town at this rate. im waiting until page 20 to iso which should yield a more confident read, but yeah.

i dont want to explain this too much at the moment so no one ask until that iso

[Noraa]

i respect you like hell. i respect your reads every game. i have never been flashy about it as scum because i know you will SR me and it will look bad for me. the only reason im putting myself out in the open is because im town and hopeful/trusting that you will TR me.

it doesnt make sense for scum me to ever want to pair with you just to take you out of the game. it doesnt make sense for scum me to want to pair with you in general. instead i should be discrediting your reads early off to establish that your reads are bad so that your SR on me doesnt mean as much.

[Noraa]

anyways i dont want to go down this route. i get that you arent going to TR me, at least not today. i am town and whether or not you see it, my alignment wont change.

[Noraa]

lets do a little readslisteroo in no particular order

Town:
Andante
Ydrasse
Datisi

Less certain town:
Bell
Fire

Null:
Myko
Ceph
Mala

Scum:
Lukewarm
Dunnstral

[Noraa]

The only read i'll explain a little in detail rn is datisi because i want that dance!!!! Datisi thought process towny. Like posts carry paranoia like oh noraa is probably town oh wait hold up why didnt she propose to ydrasse. which reads as very genuine on the tone meter. plus datisi will be a somewhat frequent visitor to the pt so dance partner compatibility 92.5%. very official

[Noraa]

I’m not 100% sold this is how town!him approaches this game with me

I feel like if you thought less about how people would approach you when trying to make reads, you'll be less paranoid overall. Like I do that a decent amount and it's why my reads generally suck. I don't know what your read accuracy is but i dont feel like reading people off how they approach you is typically a good idea because theres too many factors that affect that that dont involve alignment. if that makes sense

[Noraa]

you could be right on datisi but at the moment, i dont see it

[Noraa]

I uh cephrir yoj dont have a good model of my game. Every time i've been town you've been scum and scum knows im town. So assuming you are coming from a town perspective here which i do think you are town off these posts, my game is gonna look different bc you do not know my alignment

[Noraa]

Anyone meta reading me, i'll say this again: its not gonna work.
On ydrasse, maybe i'd try to appeal to her but i qould never suggestdancing with her. She replaced into two of my acum elos and made me lose both. Theres no reason to place my entire endgame on ydras sr on me

[Noraa]

I would never dance with ydra

[Noraa]

propose to Datisi

[Noraa]

honestly i expected to get deathtunnelled for that post and im not sure what to make of that not happening

I have a lot of people to deathtunnel if im SRing everyone who SRs me. Too much work, cut me some slack i dont have that time

[Noraa]

i guess the only other problem about that i have is the fact that noraa never actually offered to dance with ydrasse, which makes zir actions be slightly more likely to actually be scummy? i'll think about it at some point maybe

it would also maybe make sense if ydra/noraa are scum together and there's someone else in this game who's aware of their history but that's a problem for a different time

i mean if ydra was like "ok i'll dance with you", there would be absolutely no way for me to get out of it after gushing about wanting to dance with her for like the entire rvs.

[Noraa]

The only reason I backed off on wanting to dance was simply that ydra didnt want to dance with me.

[Noraa]

Town:
Andante
Ydrasse
Datisi

Less certain town:
Bell
Fire

Null:
Myko
Ceph
Mala

Scum:
Prism
Lukewarm
Dunnstral

[Noraa]

there, now ur in the readslist prism

[Noraa]

i mean if ydra was like "ok i'll dance with you", there would be absolutely no way for me to get out of it after gushing about wanting to dance with her for like the entire rvs.

this makes sense

i guess there's a gut part of me that's going "someone saying they wanna dance but no proposal??? scum???" even when the latter doesn't logically follow from the former

ok would you find it scummy if i SRed someone and didnt vote them? you can find that in all of my town games.

[Noraa]

plus datisi, if im scum, isnt it best if ur in a pt with me? if i ever seem transparently red, you can just send the post and whisk us out of the game. easy.

[Noraa]

come dance come dance

[Noraa]

anyway, talking about 258 - how come you're townreading me? i know you explained the read there, but from what i remember, you are one of the only two people on this site who scumread me literally every single game i play

so like, i know the games we played in together before are a bit old and whatnot, but if there's any meta component to your read of me i would want to hear it

i would like a response to this

i dont actually remember ever playing with you but you feel quite towny this game. i believe you when you say i generally sr you because thats probably true since i used to kind of do that to .... well almost everyone?

[Noraa]

Yeah, but why aren't you SRing any of the people Sring you?

Both Prism and Lukewarm SR me and I SR them. Thats 2/3 of my SRs .....

[Noraa]

our first game you were a vig and you spent the whole game wanting to shoot me

and there was also that chain of command game where you said you had a vibe (which was apparently very very important) and i was town

granted yeah they were a while ago i guess

oh lmao LMFAO the vig game. ok I vaguelly remember the egame but not wanting to shoot you specfically. Chain of command was the one where I got deathtunneled by everyone and run up day 1 right?

I dont think those are good metrics to read me off of because of how the games were and also they were like 2 years ago or something

[Noraa]

ok leave me then

[Noraa]

plus datisi, if im scum, isnt it best if ur in a pt with me? if i ever seem transparently red, you can just send the post and whisk us out of the game. easy.

well, yes... with the very important asterisk of having to actually be able to read you correctly

Ze also brings someone down with zir instead of getting flat out left as scum with no gain

mhm. ok

[Noraa]

n/a

[Noraa]

I mean as far as im concerned, besides andante and enchant, there isnt a single player that doesnt SR me so thats not surprising

[Noraa]

And Datisi though there is paranoia

[Noraa]

Lukewarm feels very scummy this game argh

[Noraa]

everything is so explainy in an un Lukewarm way. i dont really care about their activity like lower activity isnt indicative of anything and lukewarm isnt even lower activity here anyways

[Noraa]

pairing with scum does mean they will bring someone down with them.

all scum bring someone down with them assuming they dont pair with a partner.

[Noraa]

Ydrasse was questioning if it made a difference in dead town # if scum got left vs. got paired. It does.

did you not think scum would want to not die day 1?

[Noraa]

LMAO

[Noraa]

ok read breakdown
prism's SR on me is the worst because it's very sudden and doesn't feel genuine. like the thing is this idea of me wanting to beat good players is meh at best in general. on top of that, prism hasn't really played with me much so having that much confidence in a meta tell like that is weird. i liked the intreactions with me re: andante pairing but pairing with andante is still something that just doesn't sit well with me. there's not much other content that can be juiced out of that pairing, but it's just ... a bad feeling. it feels like the exact move an experienced scum player would pull and I cant stop thinking that.

everyone TRing Dunn is a bad look on it's own. In what game has town dunn ever been townread this way? like if the playlist doesnt look like Cabd ffery peta LLD etc, it doesn't really happen. Obviously this is a very 1 dimension way to explain this read, but explaining it further is hard and I do want to wait for more dunn content to get the most out of the ISO.

Lukewarm feels very ... weird tonally. But I think Lukewarm becomes clear with time. So like if it's like day 3 and more than half of the playerlist thinks Lukewarm is scum, eliminate, no questions asked.

Ydrasse I initially thought was town (after all of the assuming i mean) for all of the interactions with me, but I'm actually inclined to take it back. Scum ydrasse is capable of so much that I shouldn't carelessly give a town pass before day 2 at the very least.

and now im bored and dont want to finish this. i might come back and finish things later

[Noraa]

ok i get the setup now i think.
1 person leaves dance pre-dance
people dance
scum nk
the nk's dance partner finds a new partner or leaves the dance. if successfully find a new partner, the new partner's old partner leaves

[Noraa]

this is a fun setup. so many high impact choices!

not really.
pre-dance, 1 person leaves
thats basically a day 1 elimination
post night 1, 1 person finds a partner or leaves the dance. this is another elimination.
and then we repeat i think

[Noraa]

the only reason choices would matter is basically if town do not choose to work together and everyone chooses things on their own.

[Noraa]

the only reason choices would matter is basically if town do not choose to work together and everyone chooses things on their own.

so you mean like how people are doing things now?

actually im just salty everyone SRs me

[Noraa]

They posted 4 whole times in a row and it wasn't zero content.

ok ...? mala posted so many zero content posts in control and they were town there. we literally just got out of that game

[Noraa]

oh lovely it is page 20. when it gets to 21, ISO TIME!!!!! ok this is exciting ngl

[Noraa]

dunn will flip scum 9/10 times here

[Noraa]

i finished my iso and i want to get straight to the point here. i am paranoid but i am pretty damn certain dunn is scum. if dunn flips town here, i will never say im good at reading dunn again.

[Noraa]

i dont know what other people's alignments are to any degree of certainty because i know i've been playing scummily and i know mass scumreads on me mess with my reads. but i dont think dunn is town despite all of that. every other read could be completely wrong, we could have 6 scum, but i dont think dunn can be town.

[Noraa]

i have been wrong on dunn before but i dont think im wrong here and to be absolutely honest, me saying this will not matter if i die today. because dunn will float straight to endgame and then people will either lose to them or manage to come around to this read.

on the other hand, if dunn is left behind today, i am cleared with a scum flip there since dunn would obviously be a bigger asset to the scum team than me based on the current game state.

[Noraa]

also im not going to lie, im quite sure most of my other reads are wrong at this point. the fact that the gamestate looks like this and everything seems to work so perfectly in my head (scum team is perfectly 3 people, everyone else seems towny) means most of my reads are wrong. but the one on dunn isnt.

[Noraa]

i want to get straight to the point here

why is dunn scum

Dunn's just trying too hard to be likable. they're trying too hard to be a good townie and town dunn isnt a good townie. town dunn does their own thing and doesnt care what anyone else thinks.

[Noraa]

fire can you not accept that offer quite yet?

[Noraa]

scum!dunn that i know of doesn't actually *do* much of anything

dunn doesnt really do much regardless of alignment. what's important is how they do the thing sthat they do do.

[Noraa]

are there any specific posts that made you think dunn is trying to be likeable?

yes one second

[Noraa]

I don't think Bell looks bad here but I do want to go against the notion that just posting means they can't be scum

I liked that mykonian gave a lot of reads with explanations early on and that it is believable

Noraa is meh because 142 doesn't really make sense, 158 seems to be painting a narrative for something that isn't actually happening which is weird. 177 is also weird because they're not really paying attention to what is being said, which is that they are going to post very little in the pt.

Lukewarm has the worst posts among the gents so far in my opinion. I believe them about their energy level, but they ask a lot of questions that are low impact. Right now if I had to choose between the gents who have posted it would be here unfortunately

I had sort of forgotten what scum dunn looked like for a moment but then i saw this post. There's so much wrong with this one tiny post.
"I dont think Bell looks bad here but ..."
no, town dunn doesnt say that. town dunn just says ok stop with bc about bell posting = bell town

the entire read on me was way too smooth. it was just not worded the way town dunn would do it. town dunn would just say like Noraa isnt paying attention and makes no sense.

the lukewarm read ends wiht "unfortunately" nah there is nothing unfortunate to town dunn about lukewarm dying regardless of lukewarms alignment.

town dunn doesnt soften their stances, if that makes any sense. All of what dunn is doing is not giving firm opinions and the reason is so that everything is still in soft clay form. They can play around with it. if one elimination doesnt work, swap it out for another. that solve doesnt look right? throw a different person in. that is not how town dunn works. town dunn's reads are like BAM this is what i think. Changing an opinion isnt a flow-y process, it's more of a bam this happened do you have an issue with it?

[Noraa]

*bs

[Noraa]

people townread softer stances because they dont feel absolute. they dont feel like the person isnt willing to reassess. but town doesnt think about that consciously or subconsciously whereas scum does. scum needs to always have different options on the table because they have many different paths to victory but need to choose wisely otherwise it could be a dead end.

town only has 1 path to victory. town must have the exact scum team dead whereas scum can have any combination mix and match of town dead.

[Noraa]

i also feel like another thing dunn is doing is like saying really obvious things.
like saying thinks like "prism is doing this ... which makes me nervous"
and the thnig is that i think that would be somethign that is obvious to town dunn. like town dunn would just be like uhh prism is doing this and expect that you could tell they take issue with it.

agh i am genuinely so paranoid i need a hydra buddy more than ever right now but i really really think dunn is scum and it's agh. i dont know im very nervous to be wrong because im under pressure and my reads tend to break under pressure but i genuinely feel like this is right.

[Noraa]

fire can you not accept that offer quite yet?

yea, but i probably will eventually

ok thats fine.

[Noraa]

I am not as confident in my ability to read Dunn as Nora is

I am actually at a peak low in confidence right now in general. but i just ugh i dont know. like im being tunneled and it's affecting my read on the game in general. and dunn is one of the few people i feel like i can read and theres just a lot of internal paranoia because of the game state and trying to read dunn.

i have a lot of worries about this read because i struggle with my own thought process a lot of the times. like what's going through my head, i kid you not, is like
dunn has to be scum
what if im pushing dunn because i want to live another day
what if dunn isnt scum and then i die tomorrow because i mislimmed them
no no dunn has to be scum
but dunn could maybe say that as town
what if dunn's meta completely changed
what if im being overconfident
no no dunn is scum
oh wait i could maybe see town dunn saying that
oh my god people are agreeeing with me, so im wrong right
wait but thats not a good metric
agh maybe im overconfident
no dunn is scum

[Noraa]

like i feel like i've been dealing with the pressure ok but also my reads are entirely falling apart and breaking so i dont knwo what im doing at this point.

[Noraa]

im inclined to townerad lukewarm because of lukewarms TR on me that they have no reason to give me at all if scum.

[Noraa]

this is the best i've ever explained my read on dunn but everyone agreeing still freaks me out. if everyone does end up agreeing, it means the read is wrong. just saying.

[Noraa]

you know i really want to say dunn is town simply because prism agrees but that is probably not a good idea.

[Noraa]

I don't want Noraa and Datisi paired.

why

[Noraa]

Noraa can you explain your change in attitude and general approach this game?
What’s the game plan? Why were you more mature this game than usual? What changed in how you decided to respond to people?
Why do you seem a little bit sad at the beginning of the game? Why did you delay your solving? Why did you try to present yourself as patient at the beginning of the game? Why did you ask for a truce with Andante? What do you think of Ydrasse right now?

I’m not sure if any of these questions will help me reach the right conclusions but it’s worth a shot.

i dont want to answer most of these questions because i want to stop playing such an emotionally invested game and explaining these things will only make me more emotionally invested.
i asked for a truce because i dont want a 1v1 with andante on day 1 like page 3. total waste of time for absolutely everyone because no one is going to be able to read either of us off of it. we arent going to read each other off of it. nothing comes from it.

i think if dunn is scum, ydra makes a lot of sense as a partner especially with the early saying wanting to pair with dunn and then immediately dropping that idea. i dont reeally like drawing associations though so tentative.

[Noraa]

fire can you not accept that offer quite yet?

im going to be leaving soon and will likely not be able to be super caught up until monday. i currently see no reason not to accept besides that you asked me to wait, i want ceph over all the other remaining gentlemen

is there anything specific you were waiting for

well specifically, i'd like to be in a pt with you if not datisi. i like mala but mala would not talk to me.

[Noraa]

datisi whcih of me and dunn is more likely scum

[Noraa]

dunn

if it wasn't clear, i am leaning towards accepting your proposal, but making decisions in mafia games is scary and i'd rather shitpost a little bit more before actually pulling the trigger

ok i can understand that. i just felt like all this situation can be summed up into that question.
oh wait actually
HOLD UP


i have an idea. it's slightly dumb but think about it. If we leave me, dunn and datisi unpaired, then me dying would confscum dunn. it's clear dunn is a greater asset to town than me. if dunn dies, well that would mean i was wrong on them. and datisi cannot die since datisi is the only lady.

[Noraa]

ok actually thats a dumb idea. i thought i found something interesting but nah

[Noraa]

i almost want to say i'd rather we leave out ceph today becuase im going to feel bad about dunn regardless of what they flip. becuase if they flip town, my overconfidence killed them and i die the next day so it's just chaining up town eliminations. if they flip scum, i also feel bad because they could've been alive at endgame and played an excellent game which would have been completely shattered by me. sigh ok whatever. im going to iso a couple more times datisi dont accept yet.
if dunn is town, i'd rather leave day 1 than have them leave

[Noraa]

i don't actually think people do townread softer stances as a general rule. i should know, i basically put out nothing but soft stances ever

scum dunn balances it out better than you do. if you are too soft with stances, you look too agreeable and then people think ur just scum thats ok with everyone but yourself

[Noraa]

i think dunn is scum and if i thought dunn was town, i would entirely be willing to be left out if it were me vs them.
dunn is on the verge of death. there are only 2 pairs left. Both you and lukewarm have proposed. dunn is absolutely on the verge of death.

[Noraa]

*3 pairs

[Noraa]

Mala dont make any impuslive decisions please. lukewarm is like the most transparent town in the world. Like if we leave ceph instead of dunn, that's somewhat acceptable. but it's not acceptable to leave lukewarm

[Noraa]

fire didnt you say you were busy? btw i do still think the elimination should be between cephrir, dunn, and i. so i dont think fire or datisi should accept anything yet. mala should accept lukewarm asap though

[Noraa]

im scared tbh.
because if dunn is scum, that offers so much information on so many people but if dunn is town, it offers no information and i die tomorrow pretty much every single time. an di think datisi is town so two town die tomorrow if dunn is town.

[Noraa]

but dunn just .. gah doesnt feel town!!

[Noraa]

What is your read on Mala by the way, Noraa?

dont know, dont care at the moment.

[Noraa]

Do you think that I give softer stances when I am scum compared to when I am town, Bell?

Do you think that I give softer stances when I am scum compared to when I am town, Noraa?

yeah. theres a reason some games i call you obvtown and would die for you whereas others i immediately shove you.
i admit i havent been right every game (i believe i misread you in some game like half a year ago) but i have confidence that you are either playing a scummy version of your town game this game, or you are scum.

town you does not care how hard your stances are. town you doesnt care about looking agreeable. town you isnt this hard to push.

[Noraa]

town you isnt this hard to push.

Didn't seem that hard to me

really? ydrasse and fire both think you are town. explicitly town.

[Noraa]

Can you prove that? I posit that it's not actually true and that I continue to give hard stances as scum.

it's how i've read you from game to game (and i've been right nearly every gamee). and if im wrong, this game will prove it.

[Noraa]

I didn't ask you how you read me, I asked if you could prove that it was true.

how do you explain my correct reads on you in the past if they were all based on this logic? it was all a coincidence?

[Noraa]

i probably could prove it but i dont really want to spend the time

[Noraa]

hahahahahahahha to think that i could correctly identify scum dunn and eliminate them on the same day was foolish

[Noraa]

dunn do you think im scum for pushing you

[Noraa]

but i townread lukewarm more than i townread datisi at the moment.

[Noraa]

like could those posts come from scum lukewarm, maybe. but they felt genuine as fucking hell.

[Noraa]

like could those posts come from scum lukewarm, maybe.

Good enough for me

why is lukewarm scum?

[Noraa]

also im not a fan of you wanting to 1v1 lukewarm for mala and now trying to get it so that you can take datisi and have me 1v1 lukewarm instead ... like im sorry but that's kind of ....... scummy?

[Noraa]

i've cased you but you have never cased lukewarm. even the field first and i'll answer your questions

[Noraa]

How about you answer what I asked of you instead of barraging me with new questions that you don't care about

-Substantiate your read
-Explain why you are against yourself pairing with mala after I pointed out that it both blocks me and gets you with somebody else
-Explain what you mean when you say that mala both needs to not make any impulsive decisions but also "decide quickly"
-Explain how Ydrasse and fireisredsir townreading me makes my elimination "hard" and more likely to be scum

im not doing the first until you case lukewarm.
how does it block you? it gives you datisi so you dont have to 1v1 anyone to get a dance partner
impulsive decisions as in DANCING WITH YOU. decide quickyl as in dance with lukewarm. i think lukewarm is town and i think mala should dance with lukewarm
you dont think scum you gets more TRs typically? you cant lie about that, like it's an overall trend that you absolutely cannot deny. also you dont think having more people TRing you makes your elim harder?

[Noraa]

-I point out that both Noraa and Lukewarm may have impure motivations for this sudden shift in re, because the town was on a trajectory to eliminate between Noraa and Lukewarm
-I don't think it's particularly likely that you are both mafia together, but having 1 as mafia makes sense to me.

eh. this is so toned down. like maybe dance game dunn is just like this but everything is just so moldable that i cant.
like oh they MAY have impure motivations. like what.
from your perspective we're SRing you for ass reasons, how is that "they may have impure motivations" like i do not see how anyone pulls this sentence out of anywhere as town.
1 as mafia makes sense, yeah either of us being left out is fine, either option is fine. why? because you aren't trying to read us. you are trying to get the entire scum team to day 2.

like i just dont see another way to explain the fact that nearly all of your posts ping me badly, my paranoia is insane, and town is slowly being won over by you. none of this happens when im playing iwth town dunn so i literally dont understand how to explain any of this if you are town.

[Noraa]

you dont think scum you gets more TRs typically? you cant lie about that, like it's an overall trend that you absolutely cannot deny. also you dont think having more people TRing you makes your elim harder?

The difference between town me and scum me is that as town there are 0-1 out of 12 tring me and as scum there is 2 out of 12 tring me?

far more than 2, many people havent read up. the people who are even caught up are only like 5. 2 out of that 5 is pretty damn good when half the game is afk

[Noraa]

are we really?

[Noraa]

i feel like you know as well as i do that people are going to townread you for the things you posted today.

[Noraa]

ok let's wait and see. meanwhile, why is lukewarm scum? i have explained my SR on you and you dont agree but there isnt really much to explain unless you have questions. can you explain lukewarm?

[Noraa]

In control, Noraa was able to read Dunn super well.

How long did it take noraa to form their read in that game Malakittens?

It was early, but wasnt til like D2-3 until they really went after you

HOLD UP. this is because dunn was under the protection of a hydra. i did not look very carefully at the slot because of that. The MOMENT dunn reepped in, i pretty much started tunneling in like 5-7 pages.

[Noraa]

Ok datisi i'll ask you one question.

Do you think scum dunn is going to be harder to catch. Or do you think scum noraa is going to be harder to catch.

I've caught scum dunn in multiple games where NO ONE AGREED WITH ME. Dunn died day 5 in Control and was last scum standing in Mask of lies or whatever that was calleed. I caught dunn on day 2 in control, day 1 in mask of lies. There was definitely another game that i caught them in. NO ONE AGREED WITH ME in any of them. Do you not think that funnily looks exactly like this game.

And datisi, on lukewarm, do you really think that level of emotion and confusion is very town? as i've previously admitted, yes it could come from scum, but it feels extremely genuine and i want to believe it. also if lukewarm were scum with me, i would believe their ability to defend themselves. i would be much more worried about keeping myself afloat and not leaving behind any connections to scum buddies if i get left. hard defending a buddy sounds like a shitty association to leave a buddy no?

[Noraa]

you have to realize that the reason I have never been able to get scum dunn murdered before day 5 is because scum dunn is CAPABLE and everyone thinks scum dunn is towny. EVERYONE. but when dunn is town, i literally have to defend them from all the people saying "omg dunn is so inactive. dunn is floating by and scummy. dunn is blah blah shitty reasons"
Which game does this one look like?

[Noraa]

i kind of hate the gamestate right now.
i feel like im responsible for reading dunn and i also feel like every single situation is bad except for the specific situation where dunn is scum and i get them out today.

if i die, town dunn will get heat for my read on them. SPECIFICALLY town dunn because scum dunn will wiggle their way out of it
if dunn dies, i just get flashwagoned tomorrow
but if dunn is scum and i die, they'll just float to the end and then i feel like im responsible for that

i hate how paranoid i am and i hate that i just constantly want to be like ok everyone shut up just leave me out today and then all i can think of is like oh my god noraa everyone's going to just scumread you for saying that like why do i even care at this point?!?!?!??!? sigh alright

[Noraa]

Datisi shifting is not surprising but its frustrating because datisi holds sole power here. Dunnstral made a good choice because 1v1ing for a dance partner against me is the easiest thing to do in this gamestate.

one last time, datisi is scum dunn going to be harder to catch or is scum noraa going to be harder to catch?

[Noraa]

right now i'm leaning more than i'm prob gonna accept Luke over Dunn

also noraa i got very upset that you dont wanna pt with me

I thought you SRed me and was going to tunnel me so i didnt want it. I'm willing to pt with you but i would like lukewarm to get a pt as well.

[Noraa]

Mala can you just accept lukewarms offer. pretty please

[Noraa]

fwiw my noraa read is also sort of predicated on the idea that ze realized ze was scumposting somewhere around when i started attacking zir in earnest and is trying to change on a dime to zir more emotion based play.

this is actually me giving ze credit as a scum player. it's something that i did in a game quite a while ago, when ffery pointed out that i was playing my scum meta, and i realized she was right, so i immediately turned around and started giving my town meta solely because of that comment. iirc i won that game.

no one's ever been able to understand my thought process. you cant either.

[Noraa]

i don't think it's true that no one agreed with you in control.

yeah so you dont think dunn getting mass TRs looks like what this game looks like? im sorry i missed two people one who barely voiced their opinion and the other who jumped on and off every single wagon at some point in time.

crazy that i called that no one agreed with me.

[Noraa]

i guess i'll townbin zir forever

did i ever say this? no, i didnt.

[Noraa]

I think gentlemans need to stop flexing with reads and finally offer to ladies they believe are town.

crazy that all of the gentlemen have already proposed.

[Noraa]

The most notable swap for me so far is I don't find Noraa as bad, and I actually really, really like 132. I did not think targeting Ydrasse is the "never never never" she made it out to me given her treatment of Hectic in Forest Fire, but I now no longer think it's an active negative.

Still like Mykonian's entrance, not as sold on Andante's as I initially was. The early energy I like but not as sold on the reads/reactions themselves. Nullish.

i dont know how im supposed to believe this after you tunneled me for the worst meta reasons i've heard from someone who doesnt even play with me much. i am extremely salty to be clear.

[Noraa]

maybe dont meta people if your last game with them was from a year ago

[Noraa]

why didn't/don't you try to pair with someone you don't townread then

this is something you care about, but i have so many things to care about that this is nowhere in my thoughts. i understand that you care very much about this, but you have to realize that the only reason i care about town dunn dying is because it has to do with myself and my reads.

i knnow that sounds extremely like idk antitown but that is also how you are thinking no? if i townread fireisred and was pairing there, would you care as much? you might not even bring up this point.

like datisi when ur being hard tunneled by everyone in the game for meta reasons when half of them have not played with you in a year and the other half have scumread you every game you've both been town in and are agreeing with the meta reeasons put forth by the first group of people, the first thing you're thinking about is not "oh my gosh if i die tomorrow datisi is dying too"

[Noraa]

was noraa consistently townreading dunn?

yeah

[Noraa]

the only time i've seen scum!dunn is when we were partners and he was equally low-effort throughout the whole game

link me the game, i'll post by post analyse it. if you are right that dunn truly was low effort and broke all of my meta tells, i will agree to pairing with mala or fireisred.
but if not, please reassess

my post count is getting close so im going to stop posting until i get this response because atp, we're looking at a case of datisi killing town me and having to die with scum dunn or letting scum dunn float to the end. Or we're looking at datisi killing scum dunn and conftowning me for tomorrow. i dont see a world where lukewarm or cephrir dies here because im ok with cephrir but no one else is. and i really think lukewarm is town, so i really dont want to agree to that.

my point stands that scum dunn is a greater threat than both scum lukewarm and scum noraa. perhaps you think no because of meta, but in this gamestate specifically, it is true. and meta wise, i think i have a higher accuracy in terms of read rate on dunn than anyone else in this game.

datisi if you think i am town, why dont you trust my read on dunn? my read is based on meta and your read is based on meta. but you were scum with dunn that game, scum always sees their partners as a little more scummy/bad. you have never been town in a game with dunn right? because i have, and i have read him correctly in control, in maria's mask game, in web of lies, in some other scum game of dunn's, etc. i took one look at shakespeare and read dunn correctly by like page 20 without looking at flips.

anyways i doubt i can convince you but this is the only path i see. im not willing to pair with mala or fire if i have to leave out lukewarm or cephrir over dunn if you cannot completely shatter my meta tells on dunn.

[Noraa]

Spoiler:

I hate my life so fucking bad right now but alright im literally going insane that people are not seeing scum dunn.

AYYYYYY So last time I was maf, and like, we didn't solve in the hood at all, and I kinda liked that sooo I don't plan on posting significantly in the hood, like I'd rather just dump thoughts in the thread, so yeah, but TOWN!!! LET'S GOOOOOO I only accept dance proposals from town! We are endgaming! gg. tryhard mode activated. maf be scared

You liked that you didn't solve in the hood when you were mafia last time and you want to not solve in the hood again this game?

shade on andante. it's arguable whether or not this shade, i get that, but it also doesn't add too much to my case anyways so its whatever.

Honestly maybe we just quarantine me/Ydrasse and make us policyleave if we ever get to ELO, two birds one stone.

I don't believe that you would agree to leave out of policy at the end

shade on prism

I lean town on Andante, I agree that this seems like how they play as town. I am uneasy about Prism due to posts 40 and 74. I don't really believe that they think they will really get policy voted off of very little at the very end of the game. Or that they won't even try to defend themselves. So that rubs me the wrong way right away because it doesn't feel like something that would be followed up on, or like a real commitment.
As for their pairing with Andante, just having Prism making moves this early makes me nervous when combined with the above, as I can see this as setting up for later.

Between the last two posts and this one, Bell SRed Prism and said that Andante was getting pocketed by Prism basically. Bell brought up that the proposal from Prism to Andante was scummy.
Dunn basically immediately agrees with that but makes it sound like an original point.

Let's break Dunn's next post down into a couple different sections:

I don't think Bell looks bad here but I do want to go against the notion that just posting means they can't be scum

I liked that mykonian gave a lot of reads with explanations early on and that it is believable

This is Bell shade. Myko happens to scumread Bell the hardest and there were a couple TRs on Bell (me, fire, maybe some others). Dunn is basically taking the stance of "ok I agree with both sides" but trying to push towards Bell is scum. Call this whatever you want but Myko really doesn't have anything worth townreading at this point in time. It's a really random read that happens pages after like Myko's sixth post and all Myko talks about is how scummy Bell is.

Noraa is meh because 142 doesn't really make sense, 158 seems to be painting a narrative for something that isn't actually happening which is weird. 177 is also weird because they're not really paying attention to what is being said, which is that they are going to post very little in the pt.

Again, the read on me is meh, which translates to null, but Noraa is scummy because blah blah. weird is the equivalent of scummy, but the overall read is "meh". There's not a reason stated for why it isn't a scumread. Like if it was like "noraa is being weird but noraa does that often as town" or "noraa is being weird but noraa also did this which was towny" it would explain why it was a neutral read. but instead it is stated as a neutral read but only says that i am scummy in the content of the read.

Lukewarm has the worst posts among the gents so far in my opinion. I believe them about their energy level, but they ask a lot of questions that are low impact. Right now if I had to choose between the gents who have posted it would be here unfortunately

Lukewarm shade. The reason Dunn is agreeing with the energy level argument is because many other people in the game have brought it up. So again, Dunn is agreeing with both sides that the energy level is real but the play is also scummy.

Well, alright then, but it's also not like I'm known for my passive townplay, and while aggressive early in D&C I was openly sandbagging Day 1 because I thought it'd be fun.

Either way I'll go to bed rather than create a back/forth web. I'm skeptical that you overshoot so several in your reaction to D&C, from virtually no respect to earth-shaking, but maybe I'm wrong...and I am willing to wait!

I wouldn't be voting for you right now if that was an option, I'm just skeptical

Dunn thinks Prism is scummy, but just a little pushback from Prism and Dunn immediately starts trying to smooth things over and make things softer.

They’re very serious face and then doubled down on the serious faceness.
As everyone knows there is only so serious face a scum will be early game because they don’t know how people will react to their resting serious face. They’re very serious about this. If people don’t post content 100% of the time then they’re scum: serious face.

Starring: serious face.

idk i looked at some past games and they are very serious face early as scum. probably, idk, they seem to have not played in a few years

Free town points for looking like you're trying to figure things out

This is towards a post from fire agreeing that Prism is being serious and it looks like scum prism. Like Myko, there isn't really a good reason to townread fire at this point in time. TOWN DUNN DOES NOT HAND OUT FREE TOWNREADS LIKE THIS. BIG NO.

Im hungry. will continue later.

[Noraa]

Something important is that town dunn has no reason to agree with both sides. NO REASON.
agreeing with both sides makes both sides feel validated and looks like you are analyzing and taking both sides into account. but in reality, it is the refusal to make a choice which again, town dunn would not do.

alright continuing

[Noraa]

Spoiler:

Yeah, but why aren't you SRing any of the people Sring you?

Both Prism and Lukewarm SR me and I SR them. Thats 2/3 of my SRs .....

3/3 if you include that I placed you at 3 out of 4

Shade on Noraa.

So i need choose carefully and not yolo first person who offers dance with me.

You are unreadable

Shade on Enchant.

VS: Dunn's treatment of Myko/Fire (who both agree with dunn on scum bell or scum prism)

in past dances have maf avoided partnering with each other?

I've played a lot of dance games and have never seen mafia pair with each other except for myself

Nice nice nice

can someone explain this lovers vs dancers distinction, cause i don't see anything about lovers in the setup and idk what y'all are talking about

The other dance games worked a little differently, it was simply every pair is treated as lovers and dies together from the start

More nice nice

Can you explain why you think Mala is town for my benefit?

Asking Myko to explain a read on mala because Dunn is you guessed it .. about to shade mala

They posted 4 whole times in a row and it wasn't zero content.

This argument again? I'm not buying that they're completely incapable of posting as mafia

Shade on both Bell. And Mala.

[Noraa]

Spoiler:

My reads on the remaining ladies are that fireisred is town and Malakittens + Datisi can both go either way.

I suspect that fireisred is going to want to save Cephrir here. Incidentally I also think that Cephrir could go either way.

Honestly Datisi has some posts I like but I think they can fake it

Fire is town. Why? Dunn doesn't always explain reads as town either, but I have a hard time believing this doesn't have to do with fire pretty much agreeing with everything dunn has said. "Because fire likes Cephrir, I'm alright with cephrir" is basically the 2nd and 3rd sentence in one. Also where did the myko townread go? Down the drain because Myko started getting heat for proposing to Enchant.

Mala and Datisi are both people that Dunn's shaded. All of these three people (ceph, dat, mala) can go "either way". It seems to me like that's just a good way to say these are the swing votes that decide the game but if any of them SR me, they are useless to me.

I mentally blocked off Enchant

I said earlier that they are currently unreadable and I stand by that. Maybe staying unreadable is scummy. It's not clear to me why they think they need to choose carefully in 412, or what they mean by 'fearless'

Enchant shade.

You guys seem awfully confident that I'm scum based on a fault premise

That me saying 'but' somehow softened my stance, but in reality I was talking about two different things

"You guys" Keep in mind you guys is referring to Lukewarm and I and a brief brief little nod from fire. Everyone else who has weighed in has disagreed or reacted somewhat negatively. Prism, Cephrir, Ydrasse.

Propose to malakittens

This is the post right after the last one...

This is being pushed primarily by Noraa and Lukewarm, both of which have ample motive to flip the elimination if they are mafia

I went from showing up 7 times in Luke's iso to showing up 61 times in Luke's iso while I was asleep because he latched on hard to it. I think we should leave Luke out.

I don't think that noraa's push is nearly as convincing as it's being made out to be

Lukewarm shade. Noraa shade.

I want to make another analogy. Scum Dunn is like a playground seesaw. Scum Dunn wants a state of equilibrium where the number of people they TR and SR are equal and there is a constant state of majority TRs Dunn. People drop off the TRs as they become pushable, and other people become possible replacements "could go either way" People who agree with dunn stay firmly in TR and people who don't stay in SR until the TRs start falling. This one isnt as good as the clay analogy but it'll get better hopefulyl as i keep going.

[Noraa]

For the record, it's not true that I give softer stances as scum compared to when I'm town. And if it is true, then somebody should make an effort towards proving that instead of taking noraa at their word.

This post is really interesting. "somebody should make an effort to prove it rather than taking noraa at their word" evolves into "noraa substantiate your claims"
let's think about why that evolved into that. because dunn was uncertain at the beginning since no one gave firm stances on the situation of Dunn vs Noraa.
But then Dunn realized everyone found me scummy as fuck so his stance changed. It went from dunn vs everybody (Dunn trying to convince everybody) immediately to Noraa vs everybody (Noraa defending from everybody)
The immediate defensive and careful approach that Dunn took here is just not what town dunn does. Town dunn is more likely to straight up ignore my argument and legitimately get murdered day 1 than they are to take this approach.

What you're doing isn't even comparable. You're making posts like this:

I mean, I already explained why I find dunn scum plausible.

And luke is pre-flipping two players based on both of my alignments on shoddy logic. You've made maybe 3 posts about me and luke has over 20.

But sure, it's all a part of my master plan to have left you out.

Notice how I am the main pusher of the Dunn wagon. But Dunn never directly confronts me until they realize that everyone is on their side. First they ask people to prove my claims. Then they shade lukewarm and Bell. They double down on bell shade after this.

Spoiler: Luke's push on Dunnstral

Re:Nora's read on Dunn.


I have thoughts but they feel convoluted.

I am not consciously scum reading Dunn, but I am definitely not town reading him either.

I am not as confident in my ability to read Dunn as Nora is, but I do feel like there is a difference between this game and one where i was ready to hard defend him like in say Web of Lies or Shakespeare.

I kind of like the fact that Noraa is picking up a difference there as well, since web of lies we were both ready to go to bat for Dunn, and this neither of us are town reading him this game.

It is making me rethink my Noraa scum read. Which is annoying because I don't have enough of them as it is :/

My hero solve for day 1 is Prism, Dunn, then one of Myko/enchant.

Not taking questions [just for posterity] thanks!

I think that Dunn should be left behind

propose to Mala

I don't currently trust Prism, which leaves me disinclined to let her do the sorting of the pairs.

Thinking selfishly, I think pairing with Dats knowing that I am his top scum read just kills me day 2, and I think proposing to fire results in fire getting hammer between me and Cephrir, and I am left behind today. So, survival thinking says Mala is my best bet.

Hmmm. I don't want Noraa and Datisi paired.

If we are leaving Dunn behind, I think I want

Me+Mala
Noraa+Fire
Ceph+Datisi.

If Noraa is being left behind, I would want

Me+Mala
Dunn+Datisi
Cehp+Fire

Hmmm. I don't want Noraa and Datisi paired.

If we are leaving Dunn behind, I think I want

Me+Mala
Noraa+Fire
Ceph+Datisi.

If Noraa is being left behind, I would want

Me+Mala
Dunn+Datisi
Cehp+Fire

I am realizing that there are too many moving parts for me to try and get it to where someone can hammer one option or the other. So, I can't really orcastrate this choice, and that is frustrating.

Me+Mala, and then Noraa+Fire, giving Dats the hammer between Ceph and Dunn might be the closest things that I can see. But, I don't really see Fire agreeing to that because he was scum reading Noraa.

Ugh, I have thoughts, and I desperately want to be more strategic in the way that I disseminate my thoughts to the thread, and not just blurt every thought I have out. But I am struggling to find the best way to do it. So, I guess I failed, and I am blurting my thoughts out.

I hated Datisi's 587.

The moment I read it, my brain said that that is a mafia scared of a quick switch in thread perception of their partner. Nora made a case, I started shifting my reads (575), Fire said it was convincing (577). And then Datisi dropped 587.

It bothered me that it didn't call Dunn town, or town case him. It just called Noraa's reasons NAI - pumping breaks on the shift, without committing to calling Dunn town
Then said he was questioning his reads, then said he was gonna do some isos. Sets him up for a new push somewhere else all in one go.
----
So, if we leave out Dunn, and he flips scum, I feel like that town locks Noraa, and makes me more suspicious of Dats. So, I do not want that to be a pair if we are leaving out Dunn.
----

I also didn't like 616, but in a way that is harder for me to put into words.

----

One the other hand, I feel like if Dunn flips town, I feel like scum!Datisi would be less likely to try and pump the breaks on the Dunn read shift. So, I much prefer flipping Dunn over any of the other options (Being me, noraa, Ceph, and Dunn), because he is not one of my town reads, and I think that a scum or a town flip points is enlightening towards both Datisi and Noraa.

Pedit: Datisi just posted a change in stance, and I don't really know who to feel about it :/

I have read through 616->617->618 a few times... I feel like my thoughts are bad.

But my thoughts are that 616 feels like he was realizing that my read on him might be shifting, trying to get a better feel for my stance. Followed by an olive branch. And then deciding he needed to not look like Dunn's partner. But this is an incredibly self centered way to read that interaction, and so it is probably bad.

Like it would require Dats to realize that I paired him with Dunn, and then him changing his stance just in response to me, and that seems unlikely when I think about it logically.

Okay. If I separate out the bad thoughts, I think I am here:

Scum!Dunn town locks Noraa, who could be miseliminated fairly easily otherwise. and
Town!Dunn reverts me back to thinking that Datisi is town.

I will wait to consider the inverses until a later date, because the bad thoughts live in the inverses.

Noraa is currently town in my brain. Ceph is pretty null.

So, I still want a Dunn flip today.

he spent the entire post talking about how dunn is scum and partnered with me, but IF dunn were to flip town, that would say something about both me and noraa. and it's interesting how it's not explicitly said in the post, but the feel i get is that if dunn greens, that noraa is scum. which like, the fact that he didn't outright say it feels like he doesn't wanna draw attention to that part immediately

I actually typed out a more explicit version of

Town Dunn -> Scum Noraa, but then deleted it because I realized that I don't really know if that is true. I think I would need to reevaluate her there.

So, I actually think

Town Dunn-> Town Dats, and a need to reevaluate Noraa.
Scum Dunn -> Town Noraa, and a need to reevaluate you.

But my thoughts are that 616 feels like he was realizing that my read on him might be shifting, trying to get a better feel for my stance.

this part is true

i have reread the posts you have made that page, and even while KNOWING you were thinking about dats/dunn at the time, i still cannot see how i was supposed to see that from those posts, so

Responding to this post feels like one of my posts that serve no purpose, but I have broken the self restraint dam for the afternoon.

I mean, I openly suggested that you and dunn should be paired if dunn were not killed this day phase. And, if you and dunn really are scum together, I feel like that would have been an easy thing to spot. but, :shrug:

Here is a final post of Luke living his life as an open book, and then I am getting off of here for the night, and going to try again to turn back on the self restraint.

Here I was living my best life, reading through the thread. And vaguely concerned that I did not have any strong scum reads other then noraa. Then, Noraa decides to drop zir scum case on Dunn, and rock my world view, because I have had repeated thoughts on Dunn not being obviously town to me despite him having been in our last couple games, but not really having a scum read on him. Just noticing that it wasn't the same. And ze walks in saying that ze also noticed something different about Dunn, and felt like we were having similar thoughts about Dunn especially given our interactions wrt to dunn during and after the web of lies game. It gave me pretty strong "this is a similar mind looking at Dunn" and skyrocked Noraa out of my scum reads. Not even convinced that it made Dunn scum, just that zir and I were picking up the same things. So Noraa Town.

Suddenly, I am not living my best life anymore because I have no scum reads, and that is a sad life to lead in a game with 3 scum in it. So, then I started thinking about the fact that that likely means that the scum team has strong scum players in it. Prism and Dunn are both (in my opinion) very strong scum players that were both chilling in my null reads. So, I started thinking about a world where they were scum, and it made the world make a lot more sense, and why I was struggling to see red. Enter my hero solve of 582.

Boom, bam, ca pow. Dats' 587. My mind is racing. We got a scum team now fellas. That screamed partner reaction to me boys. Lets throw my hero solve away QUICK. New solve, Dunn+Datisi+[enchant/myko/Prism].

Gears are tumbling on how to live in this world. The answer: Leave dunn behind, and do everything I can do to not be paired with Dats. Enter, Proposing to Mala in 592. But wait! I shouldn't let Dats know I am on to him! There is no way for him to die this day phase, so no need to spill the beans right now. See 596. I got a secret, and I ain't sharing. ho ha.

Now what. I am proposing to Mala, how do I thwart the evil plans of the Dunn+Dats scum team. I know. Post 605. We kill Dunn! AND, we don't let Noraa pair with Dats. That will show them. But wait. People might not buy killing Dunn. What is the next best alternative? Pair Dunn and Datisi, OBVIOUSLY. I'm gonna be a good little boy, and cover my bases. Take that scum team.

Noraa posts 606, and my brain short circuits. How the hell do I tell zir why i don't want them paired without revealing my partner pair of Dunn+Dats. This is impossible. How do I stay one step ahead.

I guess I gotta spill the beans. Let my deranged thoughts flow. post 625.

Then I read dat's 616->618. And I typed out a whole thought process on how they were still partners. And then I had a flash back to that Tris game, where I wrote a dissertation on why Chaos and Dats were scum partners, and I was wrong. So, I started second guessing myself, and calling those Bad Thoughts. post 629.

And, since I was seeing those similarities, I started feeling like I should back off of the partner pair aspect of my thinking, and focus more on the townspew that come from the dunn flip (635), and that is my final conclusion of my flurry of thoughts on the whole thing.

Although, me thinking about how similar this situation is to the Tris game, but Dats not seeing it, and instead just calling me scummy did ping me all over again - but i went back to that interaction, and Dat's reaction to that was also to loudly start calling me scum, so :shrug:

I still like my town spews on a Dunn flip, but I am walking back somewhat the scum implications of the flips. We can cross that bridge when we get there.

And *bow*

You have all been privy to the hamster running on a wheel that is my thoughts.

I am going to get off of here, and when I return on the marrow, I shall try to bring back the self restrained version of myself you have all been growing accustomed to.

pedit: I see something I want to respond to, and so I shall before I get off of here.

@luke, it's not about your specific actions, it's about the overall feel your posts give off

Can I ask what my master plan is in this scenario then? If you are town, and I am scum?

Is my partner Dunn, and I am trying to get him killed today, and set up a partner association on you? If so, why would I ever aim to kill off Dunn here? He is better then me lmao. I would be trying to either keep Nora in the death crosshairs, or possibly even falling on my sword for him if I didn't think we could get Noraa though.

Or am I scum, and Dunn is town, and I am pushing to flip him today, and then literally every singe thing that I said about you being scum becomes completely meaningless because it all hinged on his scum flip, and I even stated that i would town lock you on his flip?

----

Too be clear, I am actvely trying to not partner associate you any more, but your argument that I am scum doing this feels bad.

Which funny enough, is making me lean back towards you being town, because I feel like I typed up this exact message to you in that Tris game.

Spoiler: Noraa's push on Dunnstral

ok read breakdown
prism's SR on me is the worst because it's very sudden and doesn't feel genuine. like the thing is this idea of me wanting to beat good players is meh at best in general. on top of that, prism hasn't really played with me much so having that much confidence in a meta tell like that is weird. i liked the intreactions with me re: andante pairing but pairing with andante is still something that just doesn't sit well with me. there's not much other content that can be juiced out of that pairing, but it's just ... a bad feeling. it feels like the exact move an experienced scum player would pull and I cant stop thinking that.

everyone TRing Dunn is a bad look on it's own. In what game has town dunn ever been townread this way? like if the playlist doesnt look like Cabd ffery peta LLD etc, it doesn't really happen. Obviously this is a very 1 dimension way to explain this read, but explaining it further is hard and I do want to wait for more dunn content to get the most out of the ISO.

Lukewarm feels very ... weird tonally. But I think Lukewarm becomes clear with time. So like if it's like day 3 and more than half of the playerlist thinks Lukewarm is scum, eliminate, no questions asked.

Ydrasse I initially thought was town (after all of the assuming i mean) for all of the interactions with me, but I'm actually inclined to take it back. Scum ydrasse is capable of so much that I shouldn't carelessly give a town pass before day 2 at the very least.

and now im bored and dont want to finish this. i might come back and finish things later

dunn will flip scum 9/10 times here

i finished my iso and i want to get straight to the point here. i am paranoid but i am pretty damn certain dunn is scum. if dunn flips town here, i will never say im good at reading dunn again.

i dont know what other people's alignments are to any degree of certainty because i know i've been playing scummily and i know mass scumreads on me mess with my reads. but i dont think dunn is town despite all of that. every other read could be completely wrong, we could have 6 scum, but i dont think dunn can be town.

i have been wrong on dunn before but i dont think im wrong here and to be absolutely honest, me saying this will not matter if i die today. because dunn will float straight to endgame and then people will either lose to them or manage to come around to this read.

on the other hand, if dunn is left behind today, i am cleared with a scum flip there since dunn would obviously be a bigger asset to the scum team than me based on the current game state.

also im not going to lie, im quite sure most of my other reads are wrong at this point. the fact that the gamestate looks like this and everything seems to work so perfectly in my head (scum team is perfectly 3 people, everyone else seems towny) means most of my reads are wrong. but the one on dunn isnt.

i want to get straight to the point here

why is dunn scum

Dunn's just trying too hard to be likable. they're trying too hard to be a good townie and town dunn isnt a good townie. town dunn does their own thing and doesnt care what anyone else thinks.

scum!dunn that i know of doesn't actually *do* much of anything

dunn doesnt really do much regardless of alignment. what's important is how they do the thing sthat they do do.

are there any specific posts that made you think dunn is trying to be likeable?

yes one second

I don't think Bell looks bad here but I do want to go against the notion that just posting means they can't be scum

I liked that mykonian gave a lot of reads with explanations early on and that it is believable

Noraa is meh because 142 doesn't really make sense, 158 seems to be painting a narrative for something that isn't actually happening which is weird. 177 is also weird because they're not really paying attention to what is being said, which is that they are going to post very little in the pt.

Lukewarm has the worst posts among the gents so far in my opinion. I believe them about their energy level, but they ask a lot of questions that are low impact. Right now if I had to choose between the gents who have posted it would be here unfortunately

I had sort of forgotten what scum dunn looked like for a moment but then i saw this post. There's so much wrong with this one tiny post.
"I dont think Bell looks bad here but ..."
no, town dunn doesnt say that. town dunn just says ok stop with bc about bell posting = bell town

the entire read on me was way too smooth. it was just not worded the way town dunn would do it. town dunn would just say like Noraa isnt paying attention and makes no sense.

the lukewarm read ends wiht "unfortunately" nah there is nothing unfortunate to town dunn about lukewarm dying regardless of lukewarms alignment.

town dunn doesnt soften their stances, if that makes any sense. All of what dunn is doing is not giving firm opinions and the reason is so that everything is still in soft clay form. They can play around with it. if one elimination doesnt work, swap it out for another. that solve doesnt look right? throw a different person in. that is not how town dunn works. town dunn's reads are like BAM this is what i think. Changing an opinion isnt a flow-y process, it's more of a bam this happened do you have an issue with it?

people townread softer stances because they dont feel absolute. they dont feel like the person isnt willing to reassess. but town doesnt think about that consciously or subconsciously whereas scum does. scum needs to always have different options on the table because they have many different paths to victory but need to choose wisely otherwise it could be a dead end.

town only has 1 path to victory. town must have the exact scum team dead whereas scum can have any combination mix and match of town dead.

i also feel like another thing dunn is doing is like saying really obvious things.
like saying thinks like "prism is doing this ... which makes me nervous"
and the thnig is that i think that would be somethign that is obvious to town dunn. like town dunn would just be like uhh prism is doing this and expect that you could tell they take issue with it.

agh i am genuinely so paranoid i need a hydra buddy more than ever right now but i really really think dunn is scum and it's agh. i dont know im very nervous to be wrong because im under pressure and my reads tend to break under pressure but i genuinely feel like this is right.

I am not as confident in my ability to read Dunn as Nora is

I am actually at a peak low in confidence right now in general. but i just ugh i dont know. like im being tunneled and it's affecting my read on the game in general. and dunn is one of the few people i feel like i can read and theres just a lot of internal paranoia because of the game state and trying to read dunn.

i have a lot of worries about this read because i struggle with my own thought process a lot of the times. like what's going through my head, i kid you not, is like
dunn has to be scum
what if im pushing dunn because i want to live another day
what if dunn isnt scum and then i die tomorrow because i mislimmed them
no no dunn has to be scum
but dunn could maybe say that as town
what if dunn's meta completely changed
what if im being overconfident
no no dunn is scum
oh wait i could maybe see town dunn saying that
oh my god people are agreeeing with me, so im wrong right
wait but thats not a good metric
agh maybe im overconfident
no dunn is scum

this is the best i've ever explained my read on dunn but everyone agreeing still freaks me out. if everyone does end up agreeing, it means the read is wrong. just saying.

you know i really want to say dunn is town simply because prism agrees but that is probably not a good idea.

Noraa can you explain your change in attitude and general approach this game?
What’s the game plan? Why were you more mature this game than usual? What changed in how you decided to respond to people?
Why do you seem a little bit sad at the beginning of the game? Why did you delay your solving? Why did you try to present yourself as patient at the beginning of the game? Why did you ask for a truce with Andante? What do you think of Ydrasse right now?

I’m not sure if any of these questions will help me reach the right conclusions but it’s worth a shot.

i dont want to answer most of these questions because i want to stop playing such an emotionally invested game and explaining these things will only make me more emotionally invested.
i asked for a truce because i dont want a 1v1 with andante on day 1 like page 3. total waste of time for absolutely everyone because no one is going to be able to read either of us off of it. we arent going to read each other off of it. nothing comes from it.

i think if dunn is scum, ydra makes a lot of sense as a partner especially with the early saying wanting to pair with dunn and then immediately dropping that idea. i dont reeally like drawing associations though so tentative.

datisi whcih of me and dunn is more likely scum

dunn

if it wasn't clear, i am leaning towards accepting your proposal, but making decisions in mafia games is scary and i'd rather shitpost a little bit more before actually pulling the trigger

ok i can understand that. i just felt like all this situation can be summed up into that question.
oh wait actually
HOLD UP


i have an idea. it's slightly dumb but think about it. If we leave me, dunn and datisi unpaired, then me dying would confscum dunn. it's clear dunn is a greater asset to town than me. if dunn dies, well that would mean i was wrong on them. and datisi cannot die since datisi is the only lady.

i almost want to say i'd rather we leave out ceph today becuase im going to feel bad about dunn regardless of what they flip. becuase if they flip town, my overconfidence killed them and i die the next day so it's just chaining up town eliminations. if they flip scum, i also feel bad because they could've been alive at endgame and played an excellent game which would have been completely shattered by me. sigh ok whatever. im going to iso a couple more times datisi dont accept yet.
if dunn is town, i'd rather leave day 1 than have them leave

i don't actually think people do townread softer stances as a general rule. i should know, i basically put out nothing but soft stances ever

scum dunn balances it out better than you do. if you are too soft with stances, you look too agreeable and then people think ur just scum thats ok with everyone but yourself

i think dunn is scum and if i thought dunn was town, i would entirely be willing to be left out if it were me vs them.
dunn is on the verge of death. there are only 2 pairs left. Both you and lukewarm have proposed. dunn is absolutely on the verge of death.

Mala dont make any impuslive decisions please. lukewarm is like the most transparent town in the world. Like if we leave ceph instead of dunn, that's somewhat acceptable. but it's not acceptable to leave lukewarm

Spoiler: Bell's push on Dunnstral

Noraa’s case on dunn is good enough for me.

All I have to add to it for context is that dunnstral(not sure if they add for or against it)

Is that the last(and only) time I ran into Dunn scum they asked some very inane questions and made some very inane points. Which they did here until transitioning out of it for the most part. I also know that Dunn has joined a lot of dance games so I expect higher levels of investment for him as either alignment. Because he revealed the secret that the more interested he is in a game the more he posts in it.
And I guess because he keeps joining dance games he likes them very much.

Phone post. Woo.

1. Noraa has been unique this game. A lot less aggri, a lot more organized, they gave themselves a time limit of 20 pages and I’m used to them just solving solving solving. So it feels out of character. I’m also not sure what to make of their instant collapse into self-recrimination about a dunn town flip, since they don’t actually do that when they’re town until after the flip and sometimes not even then if I remember correctly. It’s possible it’s designed just to look like they don’t know. On the other hand, they set themselves up as the Dunn expert so it’s a unique situation. I don’t think their credibility will be shot as much as they think, but I also don’t even know why I’m saying this because goddamn, if there’s one thing I don’t need more of this game it’s town reads.

do noraa and dunn have history and is ze usually able to read them well?

Yes. They’ve been consistently good about reading them. I have no idea if it’s luck. Given their reasoning has been down right terrible sometimes. But they were still right anyway. So *wiggles hands*

I mean, I already explained why I find dunn scum plausible.
Primarily because while he always jumps on the complain train when I get town binned as a word of caution.
Some of his questions have down right sucked and I associate that specifically with scum Dunn because he did that one whole time and thus it is always true from now until the end of time.

I encourage anyone interested in what Bell is saying here to read through these and form your own opinions as to why I mentioned Luke and Noraa but not Bell when talking about players pushing me.

Mega bell shade.

3/5 of Bell's push is actually just hiding behind Noraa anyway

Bell shade.

Mala dont make any impuslive decisions please.

mala should accept lukewarm asap though

Which is it?

Or is it "Mala don't make any impulsive decisions... unless it's what I want"

Now FINALLY after all of that shade on lukewarm and bell (both people who didnt start pushing Dunn until I did), we are FINALLY started to address the main pusher. Dunn is working their way up. Starting from Bell who doesnt SR dunn but believes in my reads. To Lukewarm who is similar but also SRs Dunn a certain amount. Finally to Noraa who completely SRs Dunn off of original reasons. There's no reason town defends themselves in such calculating and idk planned ways.

Noraa arguing in bad faith, that's crazy

And this post is funny. It implies that I argue in bad faith a lot, which then implies that what I am doing is NAI. But Dunn has never had a problem with me being left behind today. Not once. Another thing about this post is that all of these posts directed at me are softened stances. In the post before this one, Dunn is calling me unreasonable. In this one, dunn is saying that I argue in bad faith a lot. Compare that to the posts Dunn directs are Lukewarm and Bell. All of them are much stronger. But why is Dunn attacking the people with weaker stances so much harder? Because they are easier to dismiss. Both Lukewarm and Bell are less convinced than me. And Dunn can convince the rest of the game that their arguments are bad but Dunn doesn't know if they can do that for mine.

Town doesnt think like that pfft. You get SRed by three people, is the first thing you think "oh wow that person looks like the easiest person to defend against, im goign to tunnel them". No, the first person you address is the person who is SRing you for SHITTY META REASONS. Liek if my entire meta case was wrong, that would be the most annoying think for town dunn to see. Because this person is lying about your meta history and we all care very much about that because "you arent me you dont fucking know what i think"

town does not work their way up the pyramid of SRs slowly breaking the entire foundation of it apart. Town does not PLAN out their defenses that way. No.

[Noraa]

This game doesnt deserve my beautiful walls tbh.

[Noraa]

Im off. this is too much work. Every point i made is just going to show up again and again if i continue so there's no point in continuing.

my points are there. if people dont want to consider them in good faith, no matter what i say, people will think i am wrong. if datisi is already set, then more walls will not change anything. if datisi isnt set, even the shortest posts will be enough to make a difference.

i've been the most logical and analytical noraa i've ever been in my life and if datisi cant see it, there is nothing i can do at this point. im not posting a single time more this day phase. this game has far more than enough content from me. which iso comes from town and which doesnt is clear as day. i hope town makes the right choice. toodles

[Noraa]

town does not work their way up the pyramid of SRs slowly breaking the entire foundation of it apart.

last post actually. This is the STRONGEST point in the entire case. If you only remember one thing, this should be it.