Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

Andresvmb replaces Saladman27

Mathblade replaces Facebones

Please welcome them!

Catching up now gonna see what the major events are.

Anyone wanna point me at some place they want a comment on?

[MathBlade]

VC 1.13

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Flavor Leaf [3]:

humaneatingmonkey [265], Roden [598], Not Known 15 [620]

koopashell [2]:

Scorpious [457], ItalianoVD [484]

Not Known 15 [1]:

JacksonVirgo [138]

ItalianoVD [1]:

KittyTacky [364]

Scorpious [1]:

koopashell [625]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

Flavor Leaf [683]

Not voting [4]:

MalcolmTucker, Facebones, Saladman27, Malakittens [561]

mod notes

Replacing Saladman27. There's someone who asked to be on the replace list so they'll have priority for a few hours

Boon wagon looks stale.

To those of you on it why is Boon scum? Or is it left over RVS?

[MathBlade]

Andresvmb replaces Saladman27

Mathblade replaces Facebones

Please welcome them!

Catching up now gonna see what the major events are.

Anyone wanna point me at some place they want a comment on?

Hi, I think your slot was town based on their entrance posts.
Primarily has been FL and myself doing a lot of discussion, to be honest. Hard to really summarize since there's been a lot of movement.

On a skim of vote counts it doesn’t seem that way. But maybe I read them too fast.

Why do you think there’s movement?

[MathBlade]

Andresvmb replaces Saladman27

Mathblade replaces Facebones

Please welcome them!

Catching up now gonna see what the major events are.

Anyone wanna point me at some place they want a comment on?

I got one for you, let me go find it.

I want you to see my case on Humaneating prior to the big exchanges that happened yesterday. I've since changed my mind, but i wanna see if it's more because Human choice of diffusing the situation was a good scum play.

K give me a bit to find it.

[MathBlade]

You know what, I can see Human doing that to an Italiano town in that scenario if Koopa is also town.

It's almost like hiding behind my Italiano scum read, but here's the thing. Hmm.

Human acted in a way that I thought Italiano would if Italiano was scum, but Italiano just sitting back and letting the wagon happen because what else are they gonna do is a little townie.

OMGUS, I choose you! (even though there is multiple reasons that it isnt actually OMGUS.

VOTE: Humaneating

1: Their initial reason for suspicion was based on facts from a misunderstanding, and only after it was cleared up, did they choose to vote.
2: This happens after Koopa and I both voted onto Italiano, meaning if Koopa/FL is T/T, then scum would definitely need to start breaking this up. This is especially true of Malakittens is also town.
3: Their push is just kinda forced in a way that looks to break up a townblock. Like they came into it with the plan of eventually pushing me, and once we got cleared up and went to diffuse, they chose to vote. That was almost like a desperate act to make sure that the heat of Monk vs FL kept up, and I'm willing to give them the fire.

@Boon you mean here yeah for your case? I know there’s probably some context I am missing but I think point two assumes Italiano scum. If Italiano is town then what exactly is there for scum to break up. If we assume Koopa/You/Mala all town pushing town then ??

I need to go find that push to see if I am misunderstanding but it seems like this would imply a HEM+Italiano team from this.

[MathBlade]

Oh math :O

Hi. You scum again? It’s okay you can tell me

[MathBlade]

That's what I was afraid of. That Italiano being scum in that situation.

Give me a bit to find and read that push. I don’t understand your case so I need to find the posts in question which I have gaming with my sister later today. Lemme get a quick scope of italiano’s vote history before I go to see how likely Italiano scum is.

[MathBlade]

VC 1.14

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Malakittens [3]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Roden [804], KittyTacky [805]

koopashell [3]:

Scorpious [457], ItalianoVD [484], JacksonVirgo [820]

Flavor Leaf [1]:

Not Known 15 [620]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

Flavor Leaf [683]

ItalianoVD [1]:

koopashell [817]

Not voting [4]:

MalcolmTucker, MathBlade, Andresvmb, Malakittens [561]

mod notes

Andresvmb replaces Saladman27, and MathBlade replaces Facebones.

flavor

Spoiler:

As if this VC HEM + Italiano with a side of Koopa forced town is a very likely possibility.

Italiano’s votes were Koopa, HEM, back to Koopa. I’d need to see why Italiano voted HEM but that scum pair definitely seems likely.

Anything else I should look at late tonight?

[MathBlade]

Human acted in a way that I thought Italiano would if Italiano was scum, but Italiano just sitting back and letting the wagon happen because what else are they gonna do is a little townie.

Looking at this section, I'm worried again that Human just did the part that I thought Italiano was gonna do, then I town read Italiano, and today Human did the same thing, and it worked to get the town read feel again.

Then the Roden sheep by Italiano.

I want to believe Italiano and I are just on similar pages, but the paranoia.

I am a bit confused…I didn’t write any of that in 901. Can you restate?

[MathBlade]

Oh it looks like you’re trying to make it look I said things in 901 I didn’t say.

I think scum you would notice the faux paux especially after last game so this is probably town Boon.

[MathBlade]

Someone please support Koopa before they completely meltdown.

Has anyone here ever seen Koopa over reacting so much? Like, is it playstyle?

I do not recognize anyone here from MU other than a vague memory of Mathblade, so doubtful.

I've seen multiple people over here from MU that I've learned how to tell just by feeling out the playstyle.

I think it's helped me read you whereas a lot of others here are gonna think your scummy for it.

Quick bio break from Easter activities but I find it very weird that Koopa claims to know me from MU when I play on MU as a different name and haven’t played on MU in a year or two easy. Maybe three.

You sure it’s me?

[MathBlade]

I do feel like it's quite inconsistent that Roden has gone in on FL for changing their read on them but not other players who have done similar at other points in the game. Koopa did this once or twice before their role claim. NK had Mala down as "obvious" scum early on but then completely backpedalled on the basis of one missed post that I personally don't think changed a lot. Why solely the focus on the player who suspected them?

This is actually my biggest issue with Leaf and why I think he's scum. The narrative got switched around to me being mad I got scum read and that I scum read him for changing his read. But that was never the case, and it's pretty clear that was never the case if you just look at my original post that was directed at him in context.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise but I'm really not sure that Flavor's switch-up on their read of you was particularly out of the norm - as I say it happens in every game and it's happened with other players. I'm still hesitant to SR you fully though because if you're mafia, like I said before, I'm not sure you'd have pushed back at Flavor on this considering it's put you under more pressure than you otherwise would have been now.

You're...seriously just not listening...

I am listening, I just don't think the mafia reads on Flavor are particularly strong, especially when HEM is my strongest mafia read.

Easiest way to prove you’re listening and help me catch up is summarize the argument. I didn’t get Boon scumreads from what I have interacted with so far.

[MathBlade]

Roden - have you caught wolf FL before?

Nobody in this game has caught me as scum on site before. JacksonVirgo 'might' have, and they have seen me as scum and scum read me correctly before, but idk if they 'caught' me. I mightve won all those games.

Malakittens I met in person in 2014 at a meetup, so she might've caught me as scum.

I haven't played much with many of the others in this game. Scorpious a few here and there, and then NK15 I've played in some of his modded games.

But yeah.

U have definitely changed play styles since my haitus, but I do remember being able to read you transparently

Tbt when we met tho

I believe I was like 19 then, so just overall changed most likely. 8 years ago, wow.

I could see you still being able to read me well. I think even back then you were still more likely to read me more transparently than others.

In regards to this I have caught FL scum before but tend to lean towards scumreading him by default because he’s good. The fact Boon town pings me means he’s probably town so I am interested in the arguments to see if it’s a scum push or misguided Townie.

[MathBlade]

Imo Malakittens is scum regardless of FL's alignment

He literally masonbaited
FL reframed the narrative that reverses the Malakittens early wagon

Scorpious iirc doesnt seem scummy and they're fine atm but Im going from memry right now

Right

Does anyone on this site ever heard of a joke

Apparently not…

I hear humans do this thing called a joke. I am very bad at it. I still try because apparently I am still a fleshy meat sack people like or something.

[MathBlade]

I think this is the real reason you find me wolfy:
I am loud.
I have opinions.
I talk a lot.
I am not afraid to change.
Did I mention loud?

You see me post a lot, and with an aggressive tone and you are scared.

That's the reason.

I doubt you will admit that, or rather, have the level of insight able to figure that out - but your level of reading is extremely ineffective towards my playstyle as it fails to take into account context.
What is shocking is you are not at the same time pushing FL here too.

I hate lists.. They’re a scum tell to me..

How are they a wolftell?
Do you believe you're the greatest mafia player of all time and somehow figured out an ultimate tell? Somehow every other town player

FL also has done lists - that make them wolf too?

Trying to push these kinds of tells is extemely unfun to play with - because they are NONSENISCAL.
If it really is a "tell" - wolves wouldn't do it after some time.
You are making this game not as fun from my point of view by trying to tie what can be *proven* to be not a wolftell via simple statistics.. I can ask any great town player I know(SPF, macdougal, askthepizzaguy, etc.) And they'd all tell you that trying to tell people that "making a list" is wolfy is a ridiculous concept.

I have 0 hope in adjusting your play here but I fear you are going to be taken easily to a limlo situation and you will end up using these tells to lose us the game.


Tl;dr - learn what real wolftells are please and stop pushing the list angle because I will keep doing them as expressing my thoughts on the game openly is conducive to making other villagers see my thoughts.

Woah… easy tiger

How about just no? I do not care for this particular conversation especially if scum aren’t paying attention.

[MathBlade]

Roden - have you caught wolf FL before?

Nobody in this game has caught me as scum on site before. JacksonVirgo 'might' have, and they have seen me as scum and scum read me correctly before, but idk if they 'caught' me. I mightve won all those games.

Malakittens I met in person in 2014 at a meetup, so she might've caught me as scum.

I haven't played much with many of the others in this game. Scorpious a few here and there, and then NK15 I've played in some of his modded games.

But yeah.

U have definitely changed play styles since my haitus, but I do remember being able to read you transparently

Tbt when we met tho

I believe I was like 19 then, so just overall changed most likely. 8 years ago, wow.

I could see you still being able to read me well. I think even back then you were still more likely to read me more transparently than others.

In regards to this I have caught FL scum before but tend to lean towards scumreading him by default because he’s good. The fact Boon town pings me means he’s probably town so I am interested in the arguments to see if it’s a scum push or misguided Townie.

My general view on this as a fellow FL town-reader is that there's almost certainly a mix - the wagon on FL felt too sudden and surprising for me when reading through for it not to be partially orchestrated by mafia.

Okay. So then run with that:

Assume it is orchestrated by mafia. Who and why?

Show me deep though. There’s a post on my phone that makes me think you might be truthful scum but it’s too dangerous to call out here.

[MathBlade]

Bio break is over and I gotta get back to festivities. I still owe you the read back Boon.

[MathBlade]

Someone please support Koopa before they completely meltdown.

Has anyone here ever seen Koopa over reacting so much? Like, is it playstyle?

I do not recognize anyone here from MU other than a vague memory of Mathblade, so doubtful.

I've seen multiple people over here from MU that I've learned how to tell just by feeling out the playstyle.

I think it's helped me read you whereas a lot of others here are gonna think your scummy for it.

Quick bio break from Easter activities but I find it very weird that Koopa claims to know me from MU when I play on MU as a different name and haven’t played on MU in a year or two easy. Maybe three.

You sure it’s me?

Youre not from AoPS?

I have been on so many sites they run together but that doesn’t ring any bells sorry. I am on MU as something other than MathBlade. *gasp* blasphemy!

[MathBlade]

I am willing to go back to Human, just like sitting on Roden for now, and if Italiano is town, then I think if Roden was also town, there would be merit in scum fueling that wagon more.

Koopa had Roden listed as their 2nd lowest, but went on Italiano, so there is also potential threat for Roden to be faded, but there's a wagon on Malakittens.

What do you think of Human Italiano Malcolm with a side of forced Koopa town?

[MathBlade]

Frankly It's probably anti town for me to engage you here but I'm drunk and I feel like gloating over you having been a twat towards me since I don't like when players show undue confide ce in pushes with piss poor reasoning that they refuse to realize doesnt work.
Hopefully someday you learn your list of tells is bunk and you need to actually go further in depth to.find wolves reliably. I doubt it will be this game - you will probably blame me for being anti - town or whatever lame excuse, but someday I hope you do wake up.

Scorpious is imho antitown as town. So much so they got elimmed in the last game I was with them on. A Scorpious elim would be policy and I think HEM or Malcolm or Italiano are better elims.

[MathBlade]

I've certainly not spotted any crumbing but maybe just very subtle.

To be fair though. I would not expect a townie to point it out..

Not saying either way on you just saying what I did.

This is why I suspect Malcolm. He highlighted a crumb post and called it a role claim.

This doesn’t do any good when scum could have just missed it.

Instead we have a four alarm fire going “look here”.

Can you go more in depth on the Malcolm read?

I kinda feel HEM Malcolm and Italiano are all scum but they don’t all fit together.

[MathBlade]

Frankly It's probably anti town for me to engage you here but I'm drunk and I feel like gloating over you having been a twat towards me since I don't like when players show undue confide ce in pushes with piss poor reasoning that they refuse to realize doesnt work.
Hopefully someday you learn your list of tells is bunk and you need to actually go further in depth to.find wolves reliably. I doubt it will be this game - you will probably blame me for being anti - town or whatever lame excuse, but someday I hope you do wake up.

Scorpious is imho antitown as town. So much so they got elimmed in the last game I was with them on. A Scorpious elim would be policy and I think HEM or Malcolm or Italiano are better elims.

Why would I be a policy lim. Please explain.

Because you’re being very negative and uncooperative similar to last game when you were like “whoa lots of pages.” And “Guess we won’t get a scum elim” (paraphrased) That negativity is hard to work with and very pro scum so you’d be policy for me as it’s difficult for me to tell the difference between the two.

[MathBlade]

Why do you think Im scum Math

Mostly Boon’s case they asked me to look at and from having been masons with you last game you don’t feel the same.

[MathBlade]

Math,
Am I a candidate for you right now?

And if I am, is it because I’m scum or am I a policy?

I don’t know what you mean by “a candidate”

And I think there are other people more likely to be scum than you but if you came up as an elim wagon I wouldn’t say no. So I guess more policy but I am pretty sure my solve is invalid so it wouldn’t surprise me if you flipped scum.

[MathBlade]

I have a certain respect for people who have pride in their wolf play, as the better people are at playing wolf, the more interesting games are, and it isn't just as simple as solving the most polarized players, tis all.
Here's a list of my villa reads so far, ranked by strength:
Italiano
Humaneatingmonkey
KittyTacky
Malakittens

Not bad for page 2 as well as not even half the playerlist has posted if I say so myself

that's just a sneaky type of way to push me as being scum, i see how it is.

Clearly /s

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Just kidding

VOTE: Unvote

[MathBlade]

Math,
Am I a candidate for you right now?

And if I am, is it because I’m scum or am I a policy?

I don’t know what you mean by “a candidate”

And I think there are other people more likely to be scum than you but if you came up as an elim wagon I wouldn’t say no. So I guess more policy but I am pretty sure my solve is invalid so it wouldn’t surprise me if you flipped scum.

Launch candidate…

Nice hedge btw…

It’s an accurate response. I mean if you wanna piss me off rather than let me catch up, go ahead.

[MathBlade]

I do find issue that Mala immediately denied the self consciousness in response to it being called a wolftell - as it *is* present, although I did not inherently find it bad.
Can you explain the denial, Mala?

I'm self conscious in rl???
but i dont feel like i was acting self conscious

but whatrever

can we get off the topic

Mala you’re not scum again are you?

*glares into your soul*

[MathBlade]

Why do you think Im scum Math

Mostly Boon’s case they asked me to look at and from having been masons with you last game you don’t feel the same.

Well im still town so tell me how I feel different

also what do you think about my rebuttal amd what do you think about my case on FL?

Not sure I know how to quantify it but you kinda felt more peppy.

And I haven’t read your rebuttal or case yet. Working on it though.

[MathBlade]

I usually get scumread for this but eh who cares.

1. How long have you played the game of mafia, not just on this site, but ever?
2. Do you like playing the role of town or mafia better?
3. Are you an active poster or a lurker?
4. Do you find it hard to lie or it something you have no issues with?

1. Played Tyown Of Salem since 2018, moved to forum mafia in 2021.
2. I prefer being a tyown PR (purr role) or scum. But I like being a VT too.
3. Depends on how I "vibe" with the game. Usually semi-active.
4. No issues.

Favorite town of Salem role?

@HEM -> Peppy is an adjective like hyper or happy. More umph in your step.

[MathBlade]

Jokes aside, this seems like genuine annoyance from Mala.

The annoyance isn’t the problem.

She was annoyed when Greeting crossed a line as well and she was scum.

It’s a matter of whether that’s Townie annoyance is the question.

[MathBlade]

I dont see how being happy makes me scum Math

You’re less happy is my point. That spark that “umph” isn’t there

[MathBlade]

Anyone who suspects me is wrong. I want to know if theyre wrong for a reason or just bullshitting.

I am not causing anyone until I am caught up. (Snark)Sorry if this annoys you.( End Snark) There could be something I am missing that changes the read. I am going more free thought so people can see where I am at.

[MathBlade]

VC 1.13

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Flavor Leaf [3]:

humaneatingmonkey [265], Roden [598], Not Known 15 [620]

koopashell [2]:

Scorpious [457], ItalianoVD [484]

Not Known 15 [1]:

JacksonVirgo [138]

ItalianoVD [1]:

KittyTacky [364]

Scorpious [1]:

koopashell [625]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

Flavor Leaf [683]

Not voting [4]:

MalcolmTucker, Facebones, Saladman27, Malakittens [561]

mod notes

Replacing Saladman27. There's someone who asked to be on the replace list so they'll have priority for a few hours

Boon wagon looks stale.

To those of you on it why is Boon scum? Or is it left over RVS?

Why do you call FL "Boon"? And yeah I agree that he's town.

I decided to drop the nya-speak self-imposed post restriction because I felt it made my posts annoying to read and nobody ever commented on it so it's a waste of effort.

Post restrictions aren’t allowed in normals on the site.

It’s short for Boonskiies. It’s the name I have known FL for the longest.

[MathBlade]

Anyone who suspects me is wrong. I want to know if theyre wrong for a reason or just bullshitting.

Did you really have to ask that like it isnt obvious

No I actually agree with this reasoning, I just feel like I'm going fucking crazy for doubting that this would be the obvious answer.

Not sure I follow. The answer to me is not obvious.

Some people react differently to pushes.

[MathBlade]

Roden has been playing with me for a while now I dont know why they had to ask that.

I can see why they asked. I feel your answer is not an obvious one so I find their response lack luster.

[MathBlade]

Koopa is the towniest town who ever towned and I think the wagon on them is very sus.

Why does everyone steal my catchphrase lmao?

[MathBlade]

I am now thoroughly convinced why people do alts around here.

My last game I was answering for my last game and it seems the same is going on here…

This game…
This game
This game
This game


We are playing this game… not last game, not 5 games before … this game..

Pedit-yes, please be safe. We’re all human..

This is a pretty bad discredit. I said you have a pattern or negativity. That pattern is still here in this game. Discounting it all as last game is pretty sus.

[MathBlade]

Anyone who suspects me is wrong. I want to know if theyre wrong for a reason or just bullshitting.

Did you really have to ask that like it isnt obvious

No I actually agree with this reasoning, I just feel like I'm going fucking crazy for doubting that this would be the obvious answer.

Not sure I follow. The answer to me is not obvious.

Some people react differently to pushes.

I think that townies generally want to know/try to gauge if someone's read on them is genuine or fabricated. Idk how much you've caught up on in the thread so far, but I've had a lot of pushback on this line of thought and I don't understand why.

The narrative got changed to "I'm mad emotional and egotistical" somehow and nobody seems to think this blatant manipulation is scummy.

Roden has been playing with me for a while now I dont know why they had to ask that.

Because I'm trying to ground myself and I trust your responses right now.

I am caught up to the last post I quoted. I use it as a save spot of sorts so I can ISO myself and find it.

I don’t see anyone calling you mad/emotional. I know for sure I am not, I am just confused.

I agree Townies want to do this, but that doesn’t make it the obvious answer.

For example, if I was asked why I did something I’d have a response matching that situation, not something generic.

[MathBlade]

Math what's your Mala read

I don’t have one yet. Mala is a good friend of mine so I know she’s been going through stuff. So I know what she says is emotionally accurate but that’s NAI.

[MathBlade]

what did you think about claiming mason with FL and then retracting it as a joke when koopa uses the PR card

1) I haven’t got there
2) Claiming masons is a common joke on this site. Titus commonly calls too TRs her no thread masons.

[MathBlade]

what did you think about claiming mason with FL and then retracting it as a joke when koopa uses the PR card

1) I haven’t got there
2) Claiming masons is a common joke on this site. Titus commonly calls too TRs her no thread masons.

please finish reading

Duh. I will finish tomorrow night. I gotta finish some stuff before work tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

Jokes aside, this seems like genuine annoyance from Mala.

The annoyance isn’t the problem.

She was annoyed when Greeting crossed a line as well and she was scum.

It’s a matter of whether that’s Townie annoyance is the question.

I am caught up to here.

Which you’d know if you weren’t being extremely hyper literal.

I quote posts with my thoughts as I go along. You’ve seen me replace in and know this is my usual routine.

*stares*

Are you scum?

[MathBlade]

he said he hasnt caught up

I took it literally when he said he caught up to the last post he quoted since it was somewhere in the thousands.

Jokes aside, this seems like genuine annoyance from Mala.

The annoyance isn’t the problem.

She was annoyed when Greeting crossed a line as well and she was scum.

It’s a matter of whether that’s Townie annoyance is the question.

If this is the post he's referring to then I'm confused. It doesn't make any sense to say "I don't see anyone calling you mad/emotional" if he's only on page 5 out of 46.

That’s also not what I said. I said

I

am not calling you that.

[MathBlade]

Jokes aside, this seems like genuine annoyance from Mala.

The annoyance isn’t the problem.

She was annoyed when Greeting crossed a line as well and she was scum.

It’s a matter of whether that’s Townie annoyance is the question.

I am caught up to here.

Which you’d know if you weren’t being extremely hyper literal.

I quote posts with my thoughts as I go along. You’ve seen me replace in and know this is my usual routine.

*stares*

Are you scum?

What? Why would being literal minded make me scum?

he said he hasnt caught up

I took it literally when he said he caught up to the last post he quoted since it was somewhere in the thousands.

Jokes aside, this seems like genuine annoyance from Mala.

The annoyance isn’t the problem.

She was annoyed when Greeting crossed a line as well and she was scum.

It’s a matter of whether that’s Townie annoyance is the question.

If this is the post he's referring to then I'm confused. It doesn't make any sense to say "I don't see anyone calling you mad/emotional" if he's only on page 5 out of 46.

That’s also not what I said. I said

I

am not calling you that.

I don’t see anyone calling you mad/emotional. I know for sure I am not, I am just confused.

Because you feel like you’re looking for things to be enraged about versus taking my posts for what they are. Me asking if you’re scum for your inappropriate response then you raise your tone is troubling.

And in regards to the latter you’re correct. I misremembered but the point remains. I am not calling you emotional I am very confused. It’s not making sense.

[MathBlade]

@everyone

We should stop here for a moment(1 day or so) and everyone posts readslists and then we can discuss more.

I am not really a reads list guy I am more a potential trans guy. If I stop catching up (as it is I am 5 pages behind and I have to start work now) then I would be doing so inaccurately as well. Therefore I will not do this.

What makes you post in this game and not in the prior game you were vigged?

[MathBlade]

I've certainly not spotted any crumbing but maybe just very subtle.

To be fair though. I would not expect a townie to point it out..

Not saying either way on you just saying what I did.

This is why I suspect Malcolm. He highlighted a crumb post and called it a role claim.

This doesn’t do any good when scum could have just missed it.

Instead we have a four alarm fire going “look here”.

Can you go more in depth on the Malcolm read?

I kinda feel HEM Malcolm and Italiano are all scum but they don’t all fit together.

Just catching up but I didn't do this in the way you're suggesting here Math - Koopa themselves posted that they had a role and that they had been crumbing. There is no chance whatsoever the entire mafia team would have missed it so mentioning it at all isn't problematic. The reason I'd brought it up was because Scorpious was continuing to suspect/vote for Koopa in a way that was unnatural and it gave me a sense that they'd missed the role reveal. It was important to highlight this to let us move on from what was a particularly pointless conflict.

Role outing is a pretty decent scum tell. I have seen scum miss things that are absolutely obvious before. If you’re town never ever assume scum will notice something but phrase things in a way that protects that player. Is it scummy? Yes. But then worse case is scum look at you for a push and/or it will become why.

[MathBlade]

What are people’s reads on Mathblade?

Didn't particularly like their admission that they'd be happy to eliminate Scorpious due to playstyle and not particularly thinking that they are mafia at all. Considering they have other suspects, felt like a way for them to potentially hedge a wagon on a townie without seeming too suspect for doing so. Also felt like Math's read on me was quite dishonest and completely distorted the truth, but aware they can sometimes quickly jump to conclusions that aren't necessarily correct while town.

My read was honest and still is.

Uninformed as I haven’t read is fine, but distorted is inaccurate.

You did do as I said and you have said so.

This is really ugly.

[MathBlade]

Now that's failed

also FWIW i think FL would be today's lim if I was actually scum because I'll have partners pushing with me

I also believe FL stopped being a wagon BECAUSE i hopped off, not the other way around

To be fair FL is almost never a d1 wagon if I scumread them.
I wait and see who they spew.
I don’t think he’s scum here but FL has quite the reputation among us older players on the site.

[MathBlade]

First time doing this list format, any feedback?

I like the area fields as I struggle with colors. But on specific reads not at this time. Quoting this so I reflect on it later.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: HEM

VOTE: HEM

Bahhhh let’s goooo!

[MathBlade]

I've come to a realisation mid-day out that I don't think koopa is

more

likely scum than NK15.

VOTE: NK15

Ewww this vote is disgusting.

[MathBlade]

Scorpious town and HEM wolf heavily imply JV wolf based on the timing of these shifts.

Agreed or moonlogic NK15 wolf but yeah this section feels important

[MathBlade]

I think a wolf HEM is spewing NK15 as town in this scenario.
Speaking from a pre-flipped point of view.

Can you elaborate here? I have to go to work now but I am getting a vibe of NK15 is important to HEM vibe meaning important town or scumbuddy.

[MathBlade]

@everyone

We should stop here for a moment(1 day or so) and everyone posts readslists and then we can discuss more.

I am not really a reads list guy I am more a potential trans guy. If I stop catching up (as it is I am 5 pages behind and I have to start work now) then I would be doing so inaccurately as well. Therefore I will not do this.

What makes you post in this game and not in the prior game you were vigged?

Potential trans?

I'm getting more and more willing to vote JV but for now I'm on Mala. Treat this as an imaginary doublevote on JV.

Teams. Phone autocorrected.

I am a trans guy and have been out for years.

[MathBlade]

@everyone

We should stop here for a moment(1 day or so) and everyone posts readslists and then we can discuss more.

I am not really a reads list guy I am more a potential trans guy. If I stop catching up (as it is I am 5 pages behind and I have to start work now) then I would be doing so inaccurately as well. Therefore I will not do this.

What makes you post in this game and not in the prior game you were vigged?

The other game is finished. There is no rush.

You either fail to understand my point or are intentionally dense.

I know that game finished I replaced into it.

During that game you did not post.
This game you are posting.

What is the difference as to why?

[MathBlade]

@everyone

We should stop here for a moment(1 day or so) and everyone posts readslists and then we can discuss more.

I am not really a reads list guy I am more a potential trans guy. If I stop catching up (as it is I am 5 pages behind and I have to start work now) then I would be doing so inaccurately as well. Therefore I will not do this.

What makes you post in this game and not in the prior game you were vigged?

The other game is finished. There is no rush.

You either fail to understand my point or are intentionally dense.

I know that game finished I replaced into it.

During that game you did not post.
This game you are posting.

What is the difference as to why?

WTF?
VOTE: Mathblade
I was

dead

when he replaced in. This is mudslinging.

Yes. You were.

You were a lurker in the game.

You had like zero if not zero posts in the hood.

[MathBlade]

Like you can argue mudslinging if you want it does make you look bad as you do look bad to me but anyone can go back and review the game.

You were a lurker and were shot for it.

Here you’re not.

My question is why and instead of an explanation I get a vote.

[MathBlade]

way too early solve:

Mathblade,NK15,Jv...

Thats the pool right now, D1, too early, but thats where I'm at.

I have words but I am at work but I strongly disagree with this assertion.

It’s like so I point out something that irks me about NK15

So NK votes me so NK15 plus me decide to fight when I could have just not responded and keep my vote on HEM in that world?

Your solve makes no sense

The reason I don’t cross vote NK15 is because I think HEM is more likely scum than NK15 based on thread moves.

[MathBlade]

Like you can argue mudslinging if you want it does make you look bad as you do look bad to me but anyone can go back and review the game.

You were a lurker and were shot for it.

Here you’re not.

My question is why and instead of an explanation I get a vote.

Surely it's natural for players to approach different games differently? I maintain a pretty consistent approach but then I'm a very boring player for the most part. I don't think posting more often/less often should automatically be seen as an indicator of a player's alignment unless it's something pretty stark compared to most previous games they've played.

I agree with this.

That’s why I asked why.

Maybe NK15 saw something that made them more engaged which they would have said “Yo so and so is so obviously scum and that makes me more interested” or a reason.

It’s asking why to see if it’s scum indicative. A turnaround vote is not an appropriate response.

[MathBlade]

wtf.. sorry

No,I think the reason you aren;t voting NK15 is because your playing carefully and don't want it to look like an OMGUS vote.

The response is in there smh

Let me tell you, I am very good at scum. Very clearly put if I am scum I always vote NK15 and ride the cred and create a big argument and play emotions. Poor reaction votes like that are great for chaos and can provide several examples where I do this.

I agree as scum I am manipulative but here I am being straightforward.

[MathBlade]

Like you can argue mudslinging if you want it does make you look bad as you do look bad to me but anyone can go back and review the game.

You were a lurker and were shot for it.

Here you’re not.

My question is why and instead of an explanation I get a vote.

Surely it's natural for players to approach different games differently? I maintain a pretty consistent approach but then I'm a very boring player for the most part. I don't think posting more often/less often should automatically be seen as an indicator of a player's alignment unless it's something pretty stark compared to most previous games they've played.

I agree with this.

That’s why I asked why.

Maybe NK15 saw something that made them more engaged which they would have said “Yo so and so is so obviously scum and that makes me more interested” or a reason.

It’s asking why to see if it’s scum indicative. A turnaround vote is not an appropriate response.

Fair enough, I don't always like games getting too bogged down in meta and sometimes prefer to just let players play from scratch while basing reads on the individual game itself, but the vote in response was not a particularly good look at all for me.

NK15's vote pattern today - opting for HEM after not previously suspecting them, and voting you now, isn't a great look at all. Question is whether it's an approach scum would employ.

You can go back in my null pile.
Going to reevaluate my HEM read too.

I think FL might be into something but I want to see FL’s response to this after work.

VOTE: Unvote

[MathBlade]

wtf.. sorry

No,I think the reason you aren;t voting NK15 is because your playing carefully and don't want it to look like an OMGUS vote.

The response is in there smh

Let me tell you, I am very good at scum. Very clearly put if I am scum I always vote NK15 and ride the cred and create a big argument and play emotions. Poor reaction votes like that are great for chaos and can provide several examples where I do this.

I agree as scum I am manipulative but here I am being straightforward.

But then if you're very good as scum, and if you have an approach to the game you always follow as scum when it comes to voting, and if you're keen on meta, then a clever player could reverse such an approach every so often to throw a spanner in the works...

I am very careful my town and scum meta themselves are very similar.
As scum though I take opportunities and situations to my advantage.
Such a bad vote like that I could easily use for cred regardless of NK15’s alignment.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87211

If you value stock in a scum game, this is where I almost soloed and probably would have if draw rules would have been enforced properly.

A recent town game is the game I replaced in that I was referencing NK15 got shot.
Another is the game I recently played with FL and was masons.

[MathBlade]

I am having a really shitty shift right now.

If you all can not go back and forth for pages (plural) and be succinct and not add onto the overwhelming amount to read that’d be awesome.

All that makes me do is want to ignore both of you and vote someone at pure random and restart RVS because this reads like a shit fest.

[MathBlade]

I don’t have a read on Mala.

As I said earlier she’s not really posting and has been going through things.
There isn’t enough to read her either way.

I think if she’s scum it’s right because lucky and if she’s town then it’s a wagon of convenience.

[MathBlade]

Guess Scorpious' isn't as villagery though

crumb in this post btw . before someone wants to come at me because I said I crumbed it.

Can you explain like I am 5 how this is a gunsmith crumb?

[MathBlade]

Guess Scorpious' isn't as villagery though

crumb in this post btw . before someone wants to come at me because I said I crumbed it.

Can you explain like I am 5 how this is a gunsmith crumb?

first letter of the first 2 words.

The sentence itself is fairly forced.

Are you trying to look for a reason to push me?

No I am evaluating what you’re saying. Since it didn’t jump out at me I asked.

[MathBlade]

God I wonder if this is how I was viewed after HEM died in the other game.

My joy for reading this is done.

[MathBlade]

I am out of spoons tonight. Just got done doing unexpected OT.

I will hammer anyone who isn’t a locktown read (who is almost anyone) if they get to N-1 otherwise will see how I feel tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

VC 1.23

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Malakittens [4]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Roden [804], KittyTacky [805], koopashell [1357]

Roden [2]:

Flavor Leaf [859], ItalianoVD [888]

Not Known 15 [2]:

JacksonVirgo [1176], MalcolmTucker [1537]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

Not Known 15 [1337]

Not voting [4]:

Andresvmb, Malakittens [561], Scorpious [1122], MathBlade [1323]

mod notes

Prodding Andresvmb

Can we consolidate on Mala, Roden, or NK 15 please?

We are already at 70 pages for D1.

If you don’t want any of them please explain why.

I haven’t read the many, many pages that spawned overnight and won’t be able to right now.

From where I left off I have a TR on Mala, but Roden/NK15 are in my PoE.

[MathBlade]

Why do you townread mala?

Because like I said before she’s been going through shit.

In a prior game she was going through shit and scum she was hyper focused on the attacker Greeting vs a broad net. Here I don’t see any aggro against a player in particular.

Granted there’s a ton of posts I haven’t read so maybe she did since but it’s more a I know Mala thing?

[MathBlade]

Why do you townread mala?

Because like I said before she’s been going through shit.

In a prior game she was going through shit and scum she was hyper focused on the attacker Greeting vs a broad net. Here I don’t see any aggro against a player in particular.

Granted there’s a ton of posts I haven’t read so maybe she did since but it’s more a I know Mala thing?

That doesnt mean shes tkwn

Why not?
Scum her going through shit does (thing).
(Thing) doesn’t seem to be present.
So more than likely this is not scum Mala.

Is it airtight? No.
Is it good enough for D1? Yes.

[MathBlade]

I asked why you TOWNREAD her not why you dont wolfread her

Due to player size if Mala isn’t a wolf, she’s town. SK isn’t an option.

[MathBlade]

So you have 3 wolfreads ready to go?

No. I fail to see how those are related.

I am trying to work towards town unity and good communication.

Due to the amount of content I am in perpetual catch up so I am more at a PoE of who I would and wouldn’t eliminate.

[MathBlade]

I think roden is pretty blatantly town so I veto that vote - nk15 i think is town too

Okay then push Mala.

I think you’re wrong and Roden/NK15 are in my scum/PoE pile.

It’s win win if you let people talk.

Depending upon how people consolidate we get ideas for D2.

The more you scream “Mala now” it’s actually working against you.

You have to meet people were they are, not where you want them to be.

I gotta go but let the thread breathe. If we consolidate we work towards ending this ridiculously long D1 and talking with each other versus shouting.

[MathBlade]

I think roden is pretty blatantly town so I veto that vote - nk15 i think is town too

Okay then push Mala.

I think you’re wrong and Roden/NK15 are in my scum/PoE pile.

It’s win win if you let people talk.

Depending upon how people consolidate we get ideas for D2.

The more you scream “Mala now” it’s actually working against you.

You have to meet people were they are, not where you want them to be.

I gotta go but let the thread breathe. If we consolidate we work towards ending this ridiculously long D1 and talking with each other versus shouting.

Ugh you are prob town for this post. although i dont ever remember playing with scum!math
you are acting just like you did the last game

The only thing that jumps to memory is years ago you modded that newbie game and I replaced in and me and bji stomped the game. You accidentally themed the newbie game about cats iirc.

[MathBlade]

I fucking can't

my lim right now is totally fuckign bullshit.

all its gonna do is give you legit to no info.

do me a favor after I flip look at how my wagon started and who jumped on because I'm sure there is scum bandwagoning the crap out of this

But it would give us info. There are players hard defending you in spite of your massive lurking. If you're scum then they're also pretty scummy.

You mean just FL?

Him and I played a lot together. So yes, the whiteknight is bad, but a lot of people know each other on the site and have played with each other outside of this game.

I'm prob one of the more experienced players that are DEADLY to scum if I'm town after D2.

& I'm not lurking, but keep going. i would be lurking if I wasn't posting here, but posting elsewhere & that's not true.

And JV.

You are lurking because... what have you contributed to the game?

@MathBlade
That would excuse her if she didn't slip D1 and then lurk.

I will vote between Mala, Scorpious, and JV. Not going anywhere else.

Can you quote this slip or explain it or something?

I am behind in my read.

[MathBlade]

Self-consciousness isn't a scumtell IMHO.

I don't know how koopa "reads from the hip" on pages 1-2 and expects to be accurate in any way.

It's not, but apparently people think it's cool in order to use it as a scum tell, nor is being aggressive or defensive

but then when you go "its a rl thing"

thats frowned upon too

so lets move the topic along

if we dont want to move this topic along then just lim me now and get it over with

It's not really a

slip

upon a re-read but I just really hate this reaction. Asking to die is a scumtell.

I'm willing to give Mala a chance if she actually starts contributing but it really felt like scum giving up even if subconsciously.

I gotta go but I have seen this from town and scum. VP town is a pretty recent town example. I really have to go but yeah I don’t see anything here sorry.

[MathBlade]

As it stands right now we have two of the worst claims ever..

(Cue, “well you claimed bulletproof cop”.. I did and we won)

The “crumb” was ridiculous and I can’t even wrap my head why JV would feel the need to claim THAT under like zero pressure.

What did JV claim and what post? I think Koopa did a claim but not JV.

Apologies I am behind but I think now that it’s open it should be open to everyone.

[MathBlade]

you're also not voting anyone? why aren't you joining any wagons? what's your read on mala?

I am not voting anyone because I am not caught up.

Again my read on Mala is well spoken and not scum.

And yes just “read the game” when I am ten ish pages behind from last night and that doesn’t include the stuff before I came in. At a page a minute I am still not comprehending what I see.

Plus I am posting on a work break.

Fuck off with this “5 minute” bullshit.

[MathBlade]

you're also not voting anyone? why aren't you joining any wagons? what's your read on mala?

I am not voting anyone because I am not caught up.

Again my read on Mala is well spoken and not scum.

And yes just “read the game” when I am ten ish pages behind from last night and that doesn’t include the stuff before I came in. At a page a minute I am still not comprehending what I see.

Plus I am posting on a work break.

Fuck off with this “5 minute” bullshit.

I believe this was for me.. you are hyper aggressive this game.. sup?

I am getting ready to work 60 hour weeks and there’s only so much I can take.

There’s a fucking limit to “just catch up it’s easy”.

As scum sure it’s easy I just use a search function to hunt roles and VCs and find puppets.
But as town it’s way more complicated.

[MathBlade]

on JV's claim

i think the way he claimed feels townie

i think had Koopa had a guilty on him and then claiming would be scum motivated

I’d go 75/25.

More likely town but JV has had some deep thought scum games.

[MathBlade]

If FL is scum with anyone it’s with Roden, I think FL is town here to be clear.

HEM or NK15 are good elims to me?

VOTE: HEM

Can I have this?

[MathBlade]

We need agreement somewhere.

Koopa you scumread NK iirc you said you didn’t want to elim them today. Why?

[MathBlade]

If FL is scum with anyone it’s with Roden, I think FL is town here to be clear.

HEM or NK15 are good elims to me?

VOTE: HEM

Can I have this?

I won't be joining this one today. He could be scum, but yeah, I think the way he pushes is just poor play as scum, and makes sense coming from town. He could be scum, I guess, but it requires Italiano to be scum for me, and if Italiano was scum, we'd have more pressure onto our wagons.

Fair enough.

VOTE: Unvote

Koopa, JV, FL pick a read you all agree on and I will sheep it.

[MathBlade]

We need agreement somewhere.

Math, no.

This is the epitome of compromise.

Compromise wagons Day 1 are more than not, town.

The way things are going right now everyone is being stubborn for their pet elim.

Then someone comes along and vetoes and we have a flame war for a few hundred posts (hyperbole)

We need an elim and a flip and see who does what and why.

[MathBlade]

If FL is scum with anyone it’s with Roden, I think FL is town here to be clear.

HEM or NK15 are good elims to me?

VOTE: HEM

Can I have this?

I won't be joining this one today. He could be scum, but yeah, I think the way he pushes is just poor play as scum, and makes sense coming from town. He could be scum, I guess, but it requires Italiano to be scum for me, and if Italiano was scum, we'd have more pressure onto our wagons.

Fair enough.

VOTE: Unvote

Koopa, JV, FL pick a read you all agree on and I will sheep it.

FL is a wolf you fool

Pretty sure FL isn’t and if FL is they have to kill me because I will find them or they just bus their buddies.

Win win.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: nk15

VOTE: NK15

Let’s gooo!

[MathBlade]

Math, as a claimed PR who is essentially confirmed town by virtue of being crumbed from my 2nd post - you should listen when I say that I do not trust FL and I think he is pushing to get a mislim.

I think you’re town.
I think you strongly believe FL is scum.

I just think you’re wrong.
Claiming PR doesn’t make you right.

Just like when I was an outed mason and wrong on VP.

[MathBlade]

You have what's called Flavor Fever. Mathblade had it last game.

I mean you had a rare off game.

Your predecessor said no to Skitter and Galron
You said no to Skitter and Galron

Then proceeded to be wrong almost every time
So it was hard for me to trust you on Frog when I figured out it was elo and went for the safe bet.

I mean yeah I had flavor fever but play contributed.

[MathBlade]

Math, as a claimed PR who is essentially confirmed town by virtue of being crumbed from my 2nd post - you should listen when I say that I do not trust FL and I think he is pushing to get a mislim.

I think you’re town.
I think you strongly believe FL is scum.

I just think you’re wrong.
Claiming PR doesn’t make you right.

Just like when I was an outed mason and wrong on VP.

I think that it is worth the merit that I distrust his approach to people I townread.
He has extensively discredited several people. I think he wanted to tie himself to Mala after mislimming someone pushing her and used her as a tool.
It makes sense + it matches the behavior around mala.
Also I guess it was silly to consider all wolves were just hard buddying - but HEM and FL fit the bill for 2 wolves theatering - and now that the show is over, HEM is a bit lost.
There is no reasonable explanation why FL moved up hem in his reads - HEM has added nothing different. However roden is stuck on the bottom somehow.
At the very least - remember my words on the topic going into day 2 and don't let it die.

I will remember what you said but realistically with 2 PR claims if there’s a protective there’s a 50/50 shot you live til tomorrow. More if you or JV are scum (this isn’t what I think)

Can we like cooperate please?

I gotta go back to work but would love an HEM wagon. NK15 is a good compromise.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: HEM
Im getting cold feet - NK15 is placating the 1v1 rather than exacerbate it which is inherently town.

Blah.

Woo hoo! Yay maybe HEM is happening!

VOTE: HEM

[MathBlade]

OMG KOOPA
AND FL

STOP

PLEASE

[MathBlade]

I have an idea. I want to put flames onto Andres' feet. Lets run him up tonight.

Sure. He did the same dodge prods in the normal when he was scum. That seems good to me too. Mainly we just need to stop fighting. This day has gone on long enough.

Long as I don’t explicitly townread someone I will vote them.

[MathBlade]

Can we like stop saying who we wouldn’t do and say who we would do?

[MathBlade]

Can we like stop saying who we wouldn’t do and say who we would do?

I would definitely do my boyfriend.

I spit water on my work keyboard sir.

I meant for eliminations.

Congrats on the BF though.

[MathBlade]

The main issue I have is I think there’s scum in the heavy posters to discourage reading but I townread all the hyperposters.

Makes me think early d1 is crucial especially if HEM is scum and how they discouraged reading.

Is this a valid feels?

[MathBlade]

Just clocked out. I see a ton of pages. Super long shift again today and Dr. appt to boot so just like *sigh*

Hi Gamma.

This is still day one and we’re approaching levels for a D1 normal and I am no where near top poster to give you idea of speed and I am struggling to keep up and haven’t caught up.

Can you please look and focus on the wagons to see if you can find one you can consolidate on? Or focus most of your posts on those slots. I townread your predecessor and so I want to try to build a block or something.

I think this day needs to end pretty soon. And no I am not reading back further than this page today I don’t have spoons.

[MathBlade]

I have a couple suspects already so I could drop a vote if called for, though normally I like holding out until being at least close to caught up

You’re fine to do whatever imho. It’s more a suggestion that might be helpful because I doubt everyone can read everything at this point and was more seeing how your thoughts read.

[MathBlade]

I don’t get it?

Flavor Leaf says that they sniffed some scum energy
Then says gamestate which can be the cause of the scum energy?

So you posted that and they replaced out.

Do I have to guess that you were tunneling them before that point?

Is the pages I missed just you spamming how right you were on FL?
After spamming how right you were on Mala?
After spamming how right you were on someone else at which point blurs together?

I feel like it’s boy who cried wolf dude.

Please work with people.

[MathBlade]

I am sorry I reread it and don’t understand it and my response is the same.

When I pushed FL last game FL at least understood why.

Here this really feels like conf bias. I also noticed you didn’t answer or reflect on my questions.

I have no desire to get into a back and forth either. We need to consolidate.

Starting another wagon at this point just seems really toxic.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: NK15

Does anyone TR NK15? If so why?

I have seen a lot of wanting NK15 but not actually voting NK15 which is a sign of a wagon on scum.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: NK15

Does anyone TR NK15? If so why?

I have seen a lot of wanting NK15 but not actually voting NK15 which is a sign of a wagon on scum.

How do you look at the latest string of posts from him and think hes wolfy

Because he’s pushing on Gamma/FL slot which is obvTown imho. You really seem to be in a conf bias tunnel.

Yes you’ve been working a lot but it’s more screaming and shouting down those who don’t agree.

I townread everyone on the wagon. Works for me.

[MathBlade]

Mans literally posted analysis and because you disagree with his read you vote him.
That's not good play fam.

That’s not the only reason? Yes it is one but not the only.

Why are you so concerned about a NK15 vote if you don’t TR them?
And again if you do why?

[MathBlade]

VC 1.28

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Not Known 15 [3]:

MalcolmTucker [1537], JacksonVirgo [1607], Malakittens [1806]

humaneatingmonkey [3]:

Not Known 15 [1337], MathBlade [1936], koopashell [2166]

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [1982]

Scorpious [2]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198]

Malakittens [1]:

humaneatingmonkey [792]

Not voting [2]:

Andresvmb, Roden [2123]

We are approaching D1 normal hyperposting levels and no one is talking with each other.

We’ve hit a point where tons more posts isn’t the answer.

Figuring out NK15’s alignment then backtracking everyone seems a lot more useful than some hero wagon at this point given all the scumreads.

[MathBlade]

D1 large normal*

This is a mini with 5 less players*

[MathBlade]

Really seeing some creative takes really intent to discredit the eork I've put into the gamr

Have you considered that not everyone is solely making reads based on your gameplay or your opinions, and that acknowledging this is probably of relative importance to discovering who is mafia? We disagree, that's fine, you are entitled to convince me but I think there's a decent chance NK15 is mafia, their progression of reads on HEM was incredibly suspect and very opportunistic.

This. 100% this.

I think NK15/HEM contains at least one scum so I don’t have to have MY wagon to hit a scum.

If NK15 flips town then we’ve got scum in the hyperposters and gives me a clue reads are wrong.
If NK15 flips scum then likely hyperposters are all town and just need help talking.

So while it’s not my hero wagon I think it’s the best wagon for finding scum and I TR the participants so I think this is good.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: NK15

Does anyone TR NK15? If so why?

I have seen a lot of wanting NK15 but not actually voting NK15 which is a sign of a wagon on scum.

How do you look at the latest string of posts from him and think hes wolfy

Because he’s pushing on Gamma/FL slot which is obvTown imho. You really seem to be in a conf bias tunnel.

Yes you’ve been working a lot but it’s more screaming and shouting down those who don’t agree.

I townread everyone on the wagon. Works for me.

And FL is obvtown for which reasons, MathBlade?

Knowing him for about 5 years and his different meta.
Gamma actually posted. He lurks a lot as scum.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: NK15

Does anyone TR NK15? If so why?

I have seen a lot of wanting NK15 but not actually voting NK15 which is a sign of a wagon on scum.

How do you look at the latest string of posts from him and think hes wolfy

Because he’s pushing on Gamma/FL slot which is obvTown imho. You really seem to be in a conf bias tunnel.

Yes you’ve been working a lot but it’s more screaming and shouting down those who don’t agree.

I townread everyone on the wagon. Works for me.

And FL is obvtown for which reasons, MathBlade?

Knowing him for about 5 years and his different meta.
Gamma actually posted. He lurks a lot as scum.

The last one is definitively not obvtown material, it's just one string of posts.
About FL meta... what's different, here, from fl's scum meta?

Less controlly more listeny

I am not good at explaining soft things like that.

But I would be shocked if FL/Gamma was scum.

And for Gamma it really is. His post speed is night and day for different alignments.

[MathBlade]

Really seeing some creative takes really intent to discredit the eork I've put into the gamr

Have you considered that not everyone is solely making reads based on your gameplay or your opinions, and that acknowledging this is probably of relative importance to discovering who is mafia? We disagree, that's fine, you are entitled to convince me but I think there's a decent chance NK15 is mafia, their progression of reads on HEM was incredibly suspect and very opportunistic.

This. 100% this.

I think NK15/HEM contains at least one scum so I don’t have to have MY wagon to hit a scum.

If NK15 flips town then we’ve got scum in the hyperposters and gives me a clue reads are wrong.
If NK15 flips scum then likely hyperposters are all town and just need help talking.

So while it’s not my hero wagon I think it’s the best wagon for finding scum and I TR the participants so I think this is good.

Towncase FL.

See prior post.
See many other users that TR FL.
No one scumreads FL except you and NK15 who may be scum propping you up.
There’s no value in back and forth on FL when you refuse to answer my question on why you townread NK15.

You seem to think you can just demand everyone to do your bidding.

That’s not how any of this works.

[MathBlade]

Not sure why the bar for proving my reads is so high while everyone else gets to say gut and get away with it.

Because to be blunt:
You’ve screamed and demanded your way 2-3 times
Your explanation amounts to little more than gibberish each time
The person eventually or already had towntold
This wagon seems on a majority townread person

You refuse to even discuss the topread wagon
Yes you claimed PR but that is only a claim
It doesn’t make you king

[MathBlade]

Not sure why the bar for proving my reads is so high while everyone else gets to say gut and get away with it.

Because to be blunt:
You’ve screamed and demanded your way 2-3 times
Your explanation amounts to little more than gibberish each time
The person eventually or already had towntold
This wagon seems on a majority townread person

You refuse to even discuss the topread wagon
Yes you claimed PR but that is only a claim
It doesn’t make you king

This wagon = Your wagon on FL.

[MathBlade]

You must miseliminate many townies in your games with that logic.

Occasionally yes that does happen, but when it does happen it’s helpful because of where the game goes later.

I don’t claim nor ever expect to be perfect.

What I do claim is I will always do what I think is best for town and right now I think that’s NK15.

[MathBlade]

I don't believe you've actually given any thought to the way FL treated Roden. And everyone who townreads them has lacked the same information of seeing Roden treatment.

I did. I reread your “slip” explanation post twice.

A good majority of the game has posted since then as well.

I do not think nor believe this is a slip of any sort and more than likely neither does the rest of the game.

You need to talk with versus demand things.

This back and forth is unhealthy and I gotta get ready for work.

[MathBlade]

FL never cases people. That’s not his thing. So yeah I have 0 concern.

My bigger concern is why you won’t talk about your NK15 read.

With your hyperposting and ultradefensiveness if you weren’t a claimed PR I would be elimming you.

It’s infuriating how anytime a wagon gets going you shut it down.

[MathBlade]

FL never cases people. That’s not his thing. So yeah I have 0 concern.

My bigger concern is why you won’t talk about your NK15 read.

With your hyperposting and ultradefensiveness if you weren’t a claimed PR I would be elimming you.

It’s infuriating how anytime a wagon gets going you shut it down.

He was asked to quote posts from roden that substantiated his read. Not a hard task.

You refuse to see it from the other side. I have considered FL town - and that is evidence in my ISO.

Not going to hunt and peck and try to prove something I don’t believe in.
I have reevaluated FL slot 3-4 times. I am getting ready for work.
This thread is a behemoth.

I am pretty sure I can scum case anyone.
But just because I could doesn’t make it accurate.

[MathBlade]

I expect an apology when I end up being right about FL.

You said similar about Mala.

You’re the boy who claimed wolf who refuses to explain their NK15 read.

It creates spam and bloat so a wagon can’t take off.

Please work with people.

And no if FL flips scum you get no apology from me because even if you believe this FL has two buddies, who are they?

[MathBlade]

Look, unlike Koopa I'm willing to accept I might be wrong on Gamma down the line and I may have to reevaluate my read. Town should be able to do this. But I don't think the slot is mafia, nor does Math, and nor do seemingly the majority of players. A lot of this will be wasted energy Koopa because unless you can give us new information we are not intending to get rid of the slot today. Your arguments here are fundamentally not convincing me otherwise because you approach the game in a way where you want to confirm your own bias. Every small thing you dislike in Flavor's gameplay is used as a justification for your read.

I say this as town - you are constantly clogging up the thread with repetitive arguments which will make it easier for mafia to hide down the line and avoid engaging in arguments when you have developed an obsession with one slot. As a townie your posts are not helping me solve the game or hunt mafia and I don't get the impression I am alone in that. I'm more than happy to work with you and at times I've appreciated your enthusiasm in trying to drive things forward but if you are town you need to engage with us in a way which will actually help town win the game.

+1 this

[MathBlade]

It’s been 6 hours and we have 8 pages. I have very limited time on my break.

Did anyone here want me to address anything?

[MathBlade]

It’s been 6 hours and we have 8 pages. I have very limited time on my break.

Did anyone here want me to address anything?

Can you address the most blaring thing you've done this game!!

Spoiler:

How are you so cool

Spoiler:

Uhmm thanks? Is there anything readwise or game wise. As much as I am flattered this is spam and this game has plenty.

[MathBlade]

K it doesn’t seem anything needs me further. Going back to work to try to limit spam. Will read more tonight as able.

Please people work on conciseness and communicating.

Maybe before responding to someone write their post in your own words or something. That helps me IRL on slack chats.

[MathBlade]

I had to step away because I didn’t want to say anything harmful to you koopa. You took me there.

You are pretty unbearable, but I believe you are town (which makes it even more frustrating). Although you are and have been playing like someone who is informed, which could be a reason you are playing the way you are.

To save myself some stress and frustration and out of respect for you and the game. I won’t be addressing you for now. Thanks.

I'm informed of deez

Can you not please?

We all know the word you omitted and it makes me extremely dysphoric to think about that during a game please.

[MathBlade]

I'd like a hammer asap. We aren't getting anywhere.

Only been saying that a few days.

Yet no one is talking.

I am kind of out of ideas to make that happen.

[MathBlade]

I'd like a hammer asap. We aren't getting anywhere.

Alternatives I would consider to NK15 are HEM and Kitty. HEM has toned it down a bit but could just be clever mafia play, I'm fairly sure there's one in NK15/HEM.

I’d go HEM in that case but I would rather not dismantle the NK15 wagon much as I prefer HEM as more people I townread are on NK assuming no major vote shifts.

I am scared if I change votes at this point we will no elim.

[MathBlade]

Gamma, Italian, Andres and NK.

All of which are in the PoE. I took Italiano out of the question temporarily. This is the pure PoE if all my reads up until this point are correct, which I do not believe is the case anymore. NK red leads to Koopa red which leads to Andres green. Not sure where I'd go from that point but in that case the remaining is currently in my brain as Gamma/Italian.

ah my b I think I mixed up your scumreads with someone else's and/or mixed up italiano with scorpious.

Please….slow down. This pace is unmaintable.

[MathBlade]

In other news : I tweaked my NK15 reading style and realized what I was missing from being able to find NK15 town properly.
I won't reveal it but, I am going to try to solve the game off NK15 flipping red now.
I have gone over the worlds with NK15 green so I won't bother with those anymore.

Can you like not assume anything but solve?

Or if you are going to assume NK15 scum vote NK15?

[MathBlade]

VC 1.30

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [3]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233]

Not Known 15 [2]:

MalcolmTucker [1537], MathBlade [2234]

humaneatingmonkey [2]:

Not Known 15 [2296], JacksonVirgo [2607]

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2390]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Mala JV care to explain why you’re not voting NK?

We were this close to consolidation and an elim now it’s like wagon roulette here.

@Gamma - I think Mala is town but not because AtE. She recently AtE’d as scum in a game. Games start to blur together especially larges so to be fair if it isn’t recent or really memorable I’d have to look it up.

Yes I know Math read the thread but tbh I need a break from the thread and all the attempts I have at reading try to get interrupted.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Unvote

So some quick thoughts:

So far claimed there is a gunsmith
A lazy tracker (assuming Koopa didn’t lie to me which will become painfully apparent really fast if they did)
A backup of some kind that has a gun
And if I am right a player that’s hinted at being a PR and no I won’t elaborate.

I kinda think I have to be wrong in my ideas the claims are all town/PR or there’s a fourth player hinting at being a PR or they’re all town and the scum team is stacked. I don’t think it does any good to push there though even though I think something is off because the risk of guessing incorrectly is huge when it should be scum’s problem.

I kinda want to see where the unclaimed people push and who dies and why and who flips.
My usual rapid fire approach can’t really work for this game so I kinda want to see what the unclaimed players do and how that PoE forms or if a wagon does form on a PR claimant.

I am to be blunt: very confused by this game.

We really should start consolidating somewhere. There’s three days left and part of that is a weekend where someone isn’t. Instead of demanding a top wagon or hero wagons since we’re all split can we all like work from a PoE or something. I think I have too many reads but I have an insane work schedule atm unfortunately so I am reevaluating everything.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86642
Did a meta dive on italiano to see if I could eliminate them from my PoE - looks like this game, is similar to this one in terms of play.
There are low intensity wolf and town games too I saw - but this stood out. I read their ISO and thought similar things I did here. They pushed players in a similar way.

Scorpious, can you give us a readslist please?

I hate lists, although FL made me like them a bit..

I recommend the entire Foundation series by Asimov
All of Shakespeare is essential
The Expanse series is probably my favorite Space opera
Game of Thrones was a great read but I had to take notes. Sooo many characters…

Ohhh, the game… list. Not rankings

Big T’s
————
Mala
Italiano
HEM
You

Little t’s
————
koopa(only because claim)
Jv(same reason)
Nk15(this is ridiculous)
Note: one of these is lying

Scums
————
Kitty
Math
GE

I have not focused on Roden or Malcom at all admittedly..

Care to explain why you think one of the little t’s are town lying versus scum lying?
I also don’t get why I am in your scum PoE?

Like this is really confusing.
Do you think there’s four scum or something?
I don’t see how this works.

[MathBlade]

Let’s try that again…

Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day because if they get limmed, wow you hanged a crucial role.

I would assume common procedure is not to claim in the first place, especially within the context of this game. And look at what you said: “live a day”. Scum want to bide time because of the very fact that

“Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day”

Now I know the action is really nai, but as I said earlier claiming pr, at least in my mind, does not and should not clear you as town. If I found you scummy before the claim, I’m gonna still find you scummy after the claim, more or less based on the context and why you did it, to be fair.

All claims in this game have been pointless and stupid. This game is about deduction and strategy, not which pr can lead us to victory. I won’t be budging from within my limpool. So if anybody wants to know who I’ll be voting for today

What is your limpool? I am sorry I know it’s probably obvious but with the amount of posts it’s all confused in my head.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86642
Did a meta dive on italiano to see if I could eliminate them from my PoE - looks like this game, is similar to this one in terms of play.
There are low intensity wolf and town games too I saw - but this stood out. I read their ISO and thought similar things I did here. They pushed players in a similar way.

Scorpious, can you give us a readslist please?

I hate lists, although FL made me like them a bit..

I recommend the entire Foundation series by Asimov
All of Shakespeare is essential
The Expanse series is probably my favorite Space opera
Game of Thrones was a great read but I had to take notes. Sooo many characters…

Ohhh, the game… list. Not rankings

Big T’s
————
Mala
Italiano
HEM
You

Little t’s
————
koopa(only because claim)
Jv(same reason)
Nk15(this is ridiculous)
Note: one of these is lying

Scums
————
Kitty
Math
GE

I have not focused on Roden or Malcom at all admittedly..

I reread this:

Where’s Andres too?

This feels oddly specific.

[MathBlade]

Cool. Okay…I am like asking questions and no response from multiple people.

We really need to consolidate please. I won’t have time to lead a charge because of plans this weekend but these back and forth conversations where posts are ignored does not help.

[MathBlade]

VC 1.31

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [3]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233]

humaneatingmonkey [3]:

Not Known 15 [2296], JacksonVirgo [2607], MalcolmTucker [2657]

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2390]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]


Here is the last VC of wagons can we please move towards something?

Not voting [2]:

Roden [2123], MathBlade [2655]

flavor

Spoiler:

[MathBlade]

Cool. Okay…I am like asking questions and no response from multiple people.

We really need to consolidate please. I won’t have time to lead a charge because of plans this weekend but these back and forth conversations where posts are ignored does not help.

Bro. Relax. We’re all responding to like 5 posts at a time..

Pedit- even vc’s are sneaking in

Why are you telling me to relax instead of I dunno answering the questions I asked you?

VOTE: Scorpious

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86642
Did a meta dive on italiano to see if I could eliminate them from my PoE - looks like this game, is similar to this one in terms of play.
There are low intensity wolf and town games too I saw - but this stood out. I read their ISO and thought similar things I did here. They pushed players in a similar way.

Scorpious, can you give us a readslist please?

I hate lists, although FL made me like them a bit..

I recommend the entire Foundation series by Asimov
All of Shakespeare is essential
The Expanse series is probably my favorite Space opera
Game of Thrones was a great read but I had to take notes. Sooo many characters…

Ohhh, the game… list. Not rankings

Big T’s
————
Mala
Italiano
HEM
You

Little t’s
————
koopa(only because claim)
Jv(same reason)
Nk15(this is ridiculous)
Note: one of these is lying

Scums
————
Kitty
Math
GE

I have not focused on Roden or Malcom at all admittedly..

Care to explain why you think one of the little t’s are town lying versus scum lying?
I also don’t get why I am in your scum PoE?

Like this is really confusing.
Do you think there’s four scum or something?
I don’t see how this works.

Here you go again Scorpious.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86642
Did a meta dive on italiano to see if I could eliminate them from my PoE - looks like this game, is similar to this one in terms of play.
There are low intensity wolf and town games too I saw - but this stood out. I read their ISO and thought similar things I did here. They pushed players in a similar way.

Scorpious, can you give us a readslist please?

I hate lists, although FL made me like them a bit..

I recommend the entire Foundation series by Asimov
All of Shakespeare is essential
The Expanse series is probably my favorite Space opera
Game of Thrones was a great read but I had to take notes. Sooo many characters…

Ohhh, the game… list. Not rankings

Big T’s
————
Mala
Italiano
HEM
You

Little t’s
————
koopa(only because claim)
Jv(same reason)
Nk15(this is ridiculous)
Note: one of these is lying

Scums
————
Kitty
Math
GE

I have not focused on Roden or Malcom at all admittedly..

Care to explain why you think one of the little t’s are town lying versus scum lying?
I also don’t get why I am in your scum PoE?

Like this is really confusing.
Do you think there’s four scum or something?
I don’t see how this works.

Here you go again Scorpious.

See. This is why I hate lists.. gives opportunity for scum to rip things apart..

I missed this btw. But how could someone miss a post when 5 people
Are posting at once..

Keep pushing the VT guys…

There aren’t 5 posting at once at that point.

I think you’re trying to use hyperbole to try to avoid answering it.

If you’re town then you would either answer the question or realize there’s issues.

[MathBlade]

Let’s try that again…

Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day because if they get limmed, wow you hanged a crucial role.

I would assume common procedure is not to claim in the first place, especially within the context of this game. And look at what you said: “live a day”. Scum want to bide time because of the very fact that

“Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day”

Now I know the action is really nai, but as I said earlier claiming pr, at least in my mind, does not and should not clear you as town. If I found you scummy before the claim, I’m gonna still find you scummy after the claim, more or less based on the context and why you did it, to be fair.

All claims in this game have been pointless and stupid. This game is about deduction and strategy, not which pr can lead us to victory. I won’t be budging from within my limpool. So if anybody wants to know who I’ll be voting for today

What is your limpool? I am sorry I know it’s probably obvious but with the amount of posts it’s all confused in my head.

@ItalianoVD Response needed

[MathBlade]

First off Math, you asked me 2 questions I missed this one. And there was a flurry of activity, you can’t argue that.

And you are totally twisting this..

I said I think one of them is lying again. How dare I not believe all 3 town pr claims on D1?

This is weak play by your standards..

I also said I think there’s something off with the PR claims.

My questions was not whether or not you believe the claims:
My question was why you thought they were town and lying?

And simply put Italiano is more likely town than you and your wagon is bigger so we can move towards an elim.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86642
Did a meta dive on italiano to see if I could eliminate them from my PoE - looks like this game, is similar to this one in terms of play.
There are low intensity wolf and town games too I saw - but this stood out. I read their ISO and thought similar things I did here. They pushed players in a similar way.

Scorpious, can you give us a readslist please?

I hate lists, although FL made me like them a bit..

I recommend the entire Foundation series by Asimov
All of Shakespeare is essential
The Expanse series is probably my favorite Space opera
Game of Thrones was a great read but I had to take notes. Sooo many characters…

Ohhh, the game… list. Not rankings

Big T’s
————
Mala
Italiano
HEM
You

Little t’s
————
koopa(only because claim)
Jv(same reason)
Nk15(this is ridiculous)
Note: one of these is lying

Scums
————
Kitty
Math
GE

I have not focused on Roden or Malcom at all admittedly..

Care to explain why you think one of the little t’s are town lying versus scum lying?
I also don’t get why I am in your scum PoE?

Like this is really confusing.
Do you think there’s four scum or something?
I don’t see how this works.

@NK15
Because Scorpious has them as town in their wall

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86642
Did a meta dive on italiano to see if I could eliminate them from my PoE - looks like this game, is similar to this one in terms of play.
There are low intensity wolf and town games too I saw - but this stood out. I read their ISO and thought similar things I did here. They pushed players in a similar way.

Scorpious, can you give us a readslist please?

I hate lists, although FL made me like them a bit..

I recommend the entire Foundation series by Asimov
All of Shakespeare is essential
The Expanse series is probably my favorite Space opera
Game of Thrones was a great read but I had to take notes. Sooo many characters…

Ohhh, the game… list. Not rankings

Big T’s
————
Mala
Italiano
HEM
You

Little t’s
————
koopa(only because claim)
Jv(same reason)
Nk15(this is ridiculous)
Note: one of these is lying

Scums
————
Kitty
Math
GE

I have not focused on Roden or Malcom at all admittedly..

Care to explain why you think one of the little t’s are town lying versus scum lying?
I also don’t get why I am in your scum PoE?

Like this is really confusing.
Do you think there’s four scum or something?
I don’t see how this works.

@NK15
Because Scorpious has them as town in their wall

It looks like a 1 scum 2 town read for me

Which in that case I asked him whether he thought four scum, to which Scorpious has not answered.

[MathBlade]

Still waiting on Math’s vote on Italiano for not answering his questions..

I only have one vote and you’re already more likely scum than Italiano like I said.

[MathBlade]

First off Math, you asked me 2 questions I missed this one. And there was a flurry of activity, you can’t argue that.

And you are totally twisting this..

I said I think one of them is lying again. How dare I not believe all 3 town pr claims on D1?

This is weak play by your standards..

Again

IS ANYONE READING WHAT I POST?

This is your answer Math.. stop being so dense..

I did.

And I asked why you thought they were lying and town?

And I asked how many scum you think there are?

And why I am in your PoE?

None of that has been answered.

[MathBlade]

Might as well massclaim at this point.. scums are running wild

Mathblade - how do you feel about NK15 slot, without taking into account the claim, since after all its NAI.

It’s hard for me to get a feeling on anyone. The game has been moving too fast. I didn’t have a vibe on them and most of my TRs were voting them so I was okay to vote there. Scorpious recently pinged me with the reads list that makes zero sense and refuses to answer questions about it. So they’re as good as any.

I feel anytime I try to communicate I get drowned out and I need rapid fire answers right gauge authenticity.

So nothing?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Andres

We should still try to salvage what’s left of the day though.

[MathBlade]

Can someone tell me where to vote for now? I’m so far behind and I’m going to need to invest some time into actually reading. I trust Kitty’s accuracy somewhat so if they’re Town here, I’ll give them my vote.

The only read Andres had was Kitty town in his ISO. I think Kitty has some explaining to do.

[MathBlade]

The only read Andres had was Kitty town in his ISO. I think Kitty has some explaining to do.

Depends. Look at Andres meta first.
If andres only mentions town, usually, when lurking...

Crap I can’t count. Thanks.

And Andres usually does wall catch up posts in the scum game I played with him.

[MathBlade]

I guess the big question I have is why did scum send Andres to do the kill?

[MathBlade]

I guess the big question I have is why did scum send Andres to do the kill?

wdym

Andres was widely suspected.

Scum on MS generally have a choice to do the kill.

So why would they send Andres?

[MathBlade]

I guess the big question I have is why did scum send Andres to do the kill?

wdym

Andres was widely suspected.

Scum on MS generally have a choice to do the kill.

So why would they send Andres?

How was Andres widely suspected?

Multiple people said Andres was scum. Like you can look it up. I have a cold and no desire to go grab the posts.

[MathBlade]

The Scorpius wagon was weird. I felt like there were a lot more requested picks for elimination (HEM, NK15, Kitty, myself), and the momentum was there to vote out any of instead.

I don't like HEM's hammer but I dislike Math's vote even more. It was an opportunistic middle-of-the-wagon vote that tried to poke at Scorpius in a way to get him to overreact while also setting him up to be the leading wagon. It just comes off very tactical instead of solvey.

It was both.

I wanted the day over due to the sheer length of it.

I was AFK after my vote for the rest of the day and couldn’t respond to the rest of it.

[MathBlade]

Also I think this kill confirms that scum don't have a Roleblocker. It would've been easy to get Koopa mis-elim'd by just blocking them every night and letting them cause chaos with their day play. Though maybe they didn't think Koopa was actually all that chaotic, potentially because their reads were actually accurate or someone on the scum team got spooked once they revealed they were Koba all along.

Could be on Andres and NK.

I know Koba was wrong on me and I think their death was the most protown thing that could have happened.

[MathBlade]

Would be surprised at this point if NK15 is faking. They could've tried to coast through D2 if mafia and let things take their course. But if Andre is somehow town NK15 would be confirmed mafia.

I am thinking double bus possibly. Koba tried this in a game they were recently scum on.

I think the possibility is remote (hence why still on Andres). It’s more I don’t get why they didn’t wait until Andres posted first. They were immediately “guilty”. This denies a lot of activity for D2

[MathBlade]

In what world would you be the pressure target though? I don’t see that as a likely factor though.

[MathBlade]

Also I think this kill confirms that scum don't have a Roleblocker. It would've been easy to get Koopa mis-elim'd by just blocking them every night and letting them cause chaos with their day play. Though maybe they didn't think Koopa was actually all that chaotic, potentially because their reads were actually accurate or someone on the scum team got spooked once they revealed they were Koba all along.

Could be on Andres and NK.

I know Koba was wrong on me and I think their death was the most protown thing that could have happened.

Yes you quoted this?

Why? *confused*

[MathBlade]

I guess the big question I have is why did scum send Andres to do the kill?

Depends if multitasking exists and where the PRs lie

I mean yes but no.

Assume scum have two PRs they had to use and Andres is a vanilla goon.

Then what were they doing?

We have Koopa, JV, and NK15 who all claimed something. If they’re all town what would the invests be doing?
Then if they have manipulators like a roleblock why did NK15 get a check off?

If Andres is a strongman so had to do the kill then that means we have a protective along with a gunsmith and a tracker who could act on D1?

I can’t get the pieces to fit which means something smells.

[MathBlade]

I am interested in seeing what Andres flips to help figure out a scum narrative. I am having trouble finding it right now. I think it’s likely Andres flips scum but I don’t follow what.

[MathBlade]

Gamma, you think NK15 and Andres are laying a scum gambit or should I let it go and just vote Andres?

I guess the big question I have is why did scum send Andres to do the kill?

Depends if multitasking exists and where the PRs lie

I mean yes but no.

Assume scum have two PRs they had to use and Andres is a vanilla goon.

Then what were they doing?

We have Koopa, JV, and NK15 who all claimed something. If they’re all town what would the invests be doing?
Then if they have manipulators like a roleblock why did NK15 get a check off?

If Andres is a strongman so had to do the kill then that means we have a protective along with a gunsmith and a tracker who could act on D1?

I can’t get the pieces to fit which means something smells.

It could be more of an investigative-based scum-team where they have VCops or similar which forces me into a false-positive result for both sides. Roleblocker doesn't seem necessary with two gated investigatives.

Assuming NK15 town for this argument:

There’s a gunsmith (which gets a guilty on almost all scum)
And a tracker who can fire N1.

This means that 2/3rds of the scum team could have potential guilties on them on N1. They might have a gated Roleblocker, but they’d need a gated inno or something.

Vanilla cop doesn’t work because soon as town invest flips it’s a guilty on the other.

It’s very puzzling.

[MathBlade]

Vanilla cop doesn’t work for endgame reasons.
Assume NK15, Koopa, you all town.
Assume for argument’s sake you’re all killed each night and that the vanilla cop scum has claimed anywhere.

Vanilla cop is now turbo yeeted.

There’s no counter to the TPRs because even if the cop finds one it doesn’t matter as D2 becomes a results dump.

[MathBlade]

To make this work scum need a roleblocker which begs the question why NK15 has a result.

I just can’t make this work without it.

But yet at the same time I feel like I am falling into a paranoia rabbit hole.

[MathBlade]

Vanilla cop doesn’t work for endgame reasons.
Assume NK15, Koopa, you all town.
Assume for argument’s sake you’re all killed each night and that the vanilla cop scum has claimed anywhere.

Vanilla cop is now turbo yeeted.

There’s no counter to the TPRs because even if the cop finds one it doesn’t matter as D2 becomes a results dump.

What's the point in figuring this all out?

The point in figuring this out contributes heavily to scum dynamics.

It’s how I caught Koba when I replaced into a game of theirs recently where a similar move is pulled.

If you figure out why scum do things you can find who the scum are.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13327143

This is where I am getting at.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: andres p

VOTE: Unvote

To prevent quickhammer

Wanna answer my question?

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13327143

This is where I am getting at.

I am quite confused

In that game Koba was a false clear for bussing their buddy.

I examined it and figured out what they did only made sense for scum Koba.

By figuring out what the scum goals and intents are we can find who the players are that are doing it.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13327143

This is where I am getting at.

I am quite confused

In that game Koba was a false clear for bussing their buddy.

I examined it and figured out what they did only made sense for scum Koba.

By figuring out what the scum goals and intents are we can find who the players are that are doing it.

We don't have a protective. They will sort themselves as long as we are vigilant about it and don't let time slip away the logic.

Why do you say that?

If I was a protective I protect NK or JV not Koopa.

Koba has been known to run false gambits and lie to get what they want as town. Lord knows I wouldn’t protect them over JV or NK15. To be clear this is not a claim just an if. I might or might not be.

[MathBlade]

Or we can elim them as soon as they give a green-check which is a route that's much more fun.

I think sorting them soon as a green check. But yeah I can vibe with this.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13327143

This is where I am getting at.

I am quite confused

In that game Koba was a false clear for bussing their buddy.

I examined it and figured out what they did only made sense for scum Koba.

By figuring out what the scum goals and intents are we can find who the players are that are doing it.

We don't have a protective. They will sort themselves as long as we are vigilant about it and don't let time slip away the logic.

Why do you say that?

If I was a protective I protect NK or JV not Koopa.

Koba has been known to run false gambits and lie to get what they want as town. Lord knows I wouldn’t protect them over JV or NK15. To be clear this is not a claim just an if. I might or might not be.

You shouldn't have said this :p
I was aware, I was doing a gambit of my own.

Hey! I claim mayor of facepalm.

What’s new?

Apparently it’s raining cats and dogs here.

[MathBlade]

Or we can elim them as soon as they give a green-check which is a route that's much more fun.

I think sorting them soon as a green check. But yeah I can vibe with this.

It's the best course of action rather than trying to solve them now when the correct elimination is obvious. Scum!NK doesn't do this if Andres is not scum so it's an almost certain red flip today.

Alright let’s go.

Intent to E-1

Unless someone has something else?

[MathBlade]

I guess the big question I have is why did scum send Andres to do the kill?

Depends if multitasking exists and where the PRs lie

I mean yes but no.

Assume scum have two PRs they had to use and Andres is a vanilla goon.

Then what were they doing?

We have Koopa, JV, and NK15 who all claimed something. If they’re all town what would the invests be doing?
Then if they have manipulators like a roleblock why did NK15 get a check off?

If Andres is a strongman so had to do the kill then that means we have a protective along with a gunsmith and a tracker who could act on D1?

I can’t get the pieces to fit which means something smells.

What makes you think scum would have 2 PRs?

Process of elimination:
Scum have either 0 PRs (which I mean wtf balance can discard)
Scum have 1 PR >> In this case why send Andres to do the kill? Unless that one PR is strongman or ninja or inno? Ninja is out so strongman? But then the setup needs a protective for town which doesn’t exist. Surely they’d send someone less likely to be checked.
Scum have 2 PR and Andres is a PR >> Why send Andres to do the kill and not use the PR?
Scum have 2 PR and Andres is not a PR >> Then what are the PRs doing?
Scum have 3 PRs >> See prior point

I am at a point where scum mechanically suck but then how do we get 100s of pages in a mini without an elim with shit scum? The 2 PRs and Andres isn’t one is the least shitty but ew.

I keep running into contradictions.

[MathBlade]

You’re drunk on WIFOM
Stop trying to guess at what PRs scum do or do not have.

That’s like how I hunt though :/

[MathBlade]

This is gonna sound rude but: when have you ever had ideas of normal balance that resembled what the game reviewers actually had in mind?

In the game I just linked a bit ago where I caught Koba scum?

I will just have to think about it overnight.

Guess I am good to end the day.

I don’t think anything constructive comes out of this.

[MathBlade]

I lied I wanna make sure scum can’t lurk sac this.

I am good from a conversation point though.

[MathBlade]

Agreed. I want her reads and reads of anyone likely to be nightkilled.

[MathBlade]

Agreed. I want her reads and reads of anyone likely to be nightkilled.

Can you list the NKed people

?? Koopa died last night?

[MathBlade]

Agreed. I want her reads and reads of anyone likely to be nightkilled.

Can you list the NKed people

?? Koopa died last night?

Oh lmfao not what I meant but that is what I said. I was typing on a keyboard with one hand wanted to cheap it.

Can you list who you wanted reads from cuz they're likely to be Nked.

I would rather not. Because I am good at noticing certain things if I make a list it might help scum.

We can just wait for everyone then.

[MathBlade]

Math, why do you think scum has to have a roleblocker against an Odd-Night Gunsmith(with potential false clears and guilties) and a Lazy Tracker?

1) Because it’s unlikely every scum player would be a false inno.
Therefore if you and Koopa are both town there’s a possibility of two guilties.
I would not pass a way for scum to defend themselves against that.

[MathBlade]

If every player was a false inno then Koopa likely doesn’t die.

In that world you die.

[MathBlade]

If every player was a false inno then Koopa likely doesn’t die.

In that world you die.

Yeah I agree, but two guilties with low probability vs 3 scum and no roleblocker is Normal.

It’s two guilties with moderate to high probability is not normal. I think we will agree to disagree here.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: HEM

Will check in after work. Shitty day for work stuff.

[MathBlade]

So here’s what I want:
HEM scum and JV town and JV is right on his read.

My prior experience says that JV has done this exact same thing as scum before (Yellowstone) and I can’t tell the difference.

So I am not sure if that is reality.

I think the right play is to elim HEM but I want to review that game to try to ease my paranoia.

VOTE: Unvote

[MathBlade]

And sure if you wanna frame it like I was ‘defending’ the slot you can. My actual point was, it was a waste of a vote because there was a high chance nothing would come of it. Nice shade by the way.

I’d still like to go for Roden and/or Kitty once we figure out what’s going on with HEM.

Can you explain your thoughts please?

This feels like it assumes HEM scum, while I think it’s likely, I don’t like it’s a foregone conclusion in your post.

Assume HEM is town. Then what are your reads?

[MathBlade]

Personally, I think Roden's the best fade today.

Gives loads of information, good chance of scum, most of the game doesn't get their point, and theyre just pushing like I flipped a narrative, when I really didn't.

Everyone else I can make a bigger case for being town, such as HEM, such as Mala, even NK15 has a stronger town case than Roden.

But there is a lot of good discussion to have on all those other slots that we likely can come to better conclusions with extra flips and a Night Kill + PR actions.

I think Roden's just the overall best fade today.

Let's kill HEM (:

Yeah let’s not.

Why?

I think he’s town.

This one also needs to be explained. It sounds like your read may have changed here, and if it has it would be good to know why.

This says Italiano always has townread HEM. Am I out of order? What changed?

If HEM is town I fail to see the problem.

If HEM is scum then they’d need a look.

[MathBlade]

Ahhh I get your point. There’s definitely some stuff to think about.

@JV can you explain your Malcolm case again? I don’t get that.

I am a bit confused as to what is going on and why.

[MathBlade]

Silly question: Where is Mala?

[MathBlade]

@JV can you explain your Malcolm case again? I don’t get that.

I never made a case, in fact I was pretty heavily town-reading them up until recently when I realised that they seemed to bounce around and avoid direct arguments against them.

I don’t follow. Can you elaborate?

I have a feeling there’s a deep wolf stuff doesn’t add up here.

[MathBlade]

I have a feeling there’s a deep wolf stuff doesn’t add up here.

Why do you have a feeling we have a deepwolf specifically? Also do you have any additional thoughts on why Andres attacked since your theory of a scum bus has been proven otherwise.

There’s no freaking out or “strong” emotions. It’s all laid back. I’d expect more hyper ness or something.

And since Andres flipped goon this means either scum were PRs or they thought Andres wouldn’t be tracked or they’re not competent scum. The latter isn’t likely as there was mass claim on D1. So likely PRs is where I am at.

[MathBlade]

I have a feeling there’s a deep wolf stuff doesn’t add up here.

Why do you have a feeling we have a deepwolf specifically? Also do you have any additional thoughts on why Andres attacked since your theory of a scum bus has been proven otherwise.

There’s no freaking out or “strong” emotions. It’s all laid back. I’d expect more hyper ness or something.

And since Andres flipped goon this means either scum were PRs or they thought Andres wouldn’t be tracked or they’re not competent scum. The latter isn’t likely as there was mass claim on D1. So likely PRs is where I am at.

I do not believe lack of visceral behaviour is a hallmark for a deep-wolf. Andres being tracked and flipping red could mean a multitude of things for the way that the scum are acting and from what I've seen I don't think scum need two PRs to counter a gated GS with a counter within the Town (me) and a gated Tracker, so I seriously think that there's a scum that was in a worse position than Andres at the time prior to the red-check.

That’s the thing. No one was really in a bad position from what I remember. Lots of wagons never really went anywhere and getting people to talk let alone consensus was rough. If a major wagon showed itself I’d agree but nothing like that existed.

[MathBlade]

I felt Math’s 2929 helped me along. I didn’t feel alone in my big brain thinking lol. I would do it again if I had to do it again.

Anyway in the mean time, anyone up for a Kitty wagon.

VOTE: Kitty

Uhm what? How exactly did I help? How does that connect to Kitty?

I am more confused so I want to see what others are doing.

I am resetting so I am not going to veto anything and just sort of listening.

I want to solve the contradictions and see what scum are doing so the best way to do that is see what happens

[MathBlade]

Silly question: Where is Mala?

I hope she is alright IRL, I'm hesitant to turbo push her for lurking again since it's known she is lurking for IRL reasons.

I hope so too. I only asked where she was and did not suggest a turbo push. This is sus.

[MathBlade]

I think there’s a scum in Kitty/Italiano/Malcolm

[MathBlade]

That’s not at all what I said?

I found a suspicious post from Kitty.

Based on that and how the votes are, I suspect a scum in you/Kitty/Malcolm.

Where did you get partners from that?

[MathBlade]

That sounds fake.

VOTE: Italiano

[MathBlade]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

[MathBlade]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

Yes the argument could be made there. However that’d be flawed. If I was scum then I could have picked almost any of the 20 wagons on D1, could have encouraged any of the other bullshit that happened that day. I was just offline for the last few votes.

[MathBlade]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

There's ways you could spin lots of players looking quite scummy but that's fundamentally a central component of the game...it's surely still worth looking at no? If anything I think the Scorpious wagon was largely ignored more than it should have been due to D2 quick elimination of Andre and the HEM/JV clash to kick off D3.

Everything is worth looking into but I don’t think it’s fruitful here. I think the fact we got a wagon to actually complete and get somewhere is pretty good.

[MathBlade]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

Yes the argument could be made there. However that’d be flawed. If I was scum then I could have picked almost any of the 20 wagons on D1, could have encouraged any of the other bullshit that happened that day. I was just offline for the last few votes.

Trying to figure out what I make of your approach in general re Scorpious. I think you were asking him plenty of good questions on D1 and pointing out contradictions in his play that probably helped with the elimination. But if you were on the mafia team and saw Scorpious as a viable elimination I could see you doing that as mafia...if a player has made a readslist that can genuinely be picked apart as inconsistent despite them being town, it's something I think a skilled mafia player might be all over.

I am indeed a skilled mafia player. There’s nothing here to really address though. A skilled mafia player can make those posts. However so can incorrect town, which I am.

That day was going on way too long and we needed an elim somewhere. Do I regret being offline for the additional D1 action? Yes. But there’s nothing I can do to change that so I just work forward.

[MathBlade]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

There's ways you could spin lots of players looking quite scummy but that's fundamentally a central component of the game...it's surely still worth looking at no? If anything I think the Scorpious wagon was largely ignored more than it should have been due to D2 quick elimination of Andre and the HEM/JV clash to kick off D3.

Everything is worth looking into but I don’t think it’s fruitful here. I think the fact we got a wagon to actually complete and get somewhere is pretty good.

What part? The theories I'm floating re your possible involvement, or the D1 wagon in general?

I think the Scorpious wagon in general. Due to how we never got a wagon to 4 or 5 almost all day then finally got an elim I think it’s probably mostly town rather than scum. However I understand the common reaction to look at the wagon which is to look at it, so please look away. I have to work now but we will check after work.

[MathBlade]

That sounds fake.

VOTE: Italiano

What sounds fake? My explanation? Lol smh. Are you scum?

The apology. I was in a hurry as I was getting ready for work.

[MathBlade]

Re 3183 Math (won't quote it due to length), I get that the Scorpious wagon isn't going to be perfect insofar as the info we gain from it but the idea we should just largely ignore it in approaching who we should eliminate next because it's going to be confusing and hard to get anything definitive seems strange to be. Surely if it's mostly town on the wagon, it's also then worth analysing where mafia placed their votes, and what they were trying to achieve by doing this? The game for town is ultimately won via info we gain as time goes on, an actual elimination and how players voted is for me always going to be one of the best ways to gain said info, especially when we push players on the basis of it to see how they react.

That’s not what I am saying. Saying something likely won’t be fruitful isn’t the same thing as not to look. I, in fact, encouraged you to look. I find it contradictory and unhelpful but that’s me.

[MathBlade]

I just fundamentally don't see why it's a good idea to ignore a D1 wagon of a townie who (to me) really did not look like mafia because it's not going to give us definitive info. That's...largely what happens in any mafia game? A lot of this game is based on gut reads, I'd rather at least be making a gut read based on actual info we've gained, and it feels telling that Math is keen to avoid this.

Again, not ignoring it. I just find it contradictory. If you get useful stuff from it power to you.

[MathBlade]

I wanted to get to the Scorpious wagon, but Day 2 was Day 2 and now Day 3 is on me, but I’m at least content in knowing that this a direction Malcolm is going. It was a bad wagon period.

I think this is a stretch. I thought Scorpious was scum when I voted them.

Just because a wagon flips town doesn’t mean the wagon is bad as a whole.